[01:16.930 --> 01:19.550]  [BOB]: Hello, and welcome to Defense Diaries.
[01:19.770 --> 01:24.510]  [BOB]: I am your host, Bob Mata, and I am joined by my beautiful and brilliant co-host, Allie.
[01:24.570 --> 01:25.110]  [BOB]: What's up, girl?
[01:26.690 --> 01:27.410]  [ALLIE]: Not much.
[01:27.530 --> 01:27.930]  [ALLIE]: Hey, babe.
[01:27.970 --> 01:28.370]  [ALLIE]: Hey, y'all.
[01:28.890 --> 01:29.790]  [BOB]: Hey, all right.
[01:29.890 --> 01:38.010]  [BOB]: So you guys, I'm going to end up doing, we're doing this as a podcast tonight, so that means we're going to actually be converting it into our traditional podcast.
[01:38.430 --> 01:47.330]  [BOB]: So I'm going to do a new intro right before we bring Dr. Perlmutter on, and I'm not going to be taking questions from the chat.
[01:47.510 --> 01:48.730]  [BOB]: We'll be looking at it.
[01:48.750 --> 01:49.170]  [BOB]: Right.
[01:49.390 --> 02:07.130]  [ALLIE]: We'll take, we'll highlight any super stickers and super chats, and we will sort of incorporate them, if we can, they're appropriate, whatever the case may be, into a question that we are, that we're asking, but we're not going to say, you know, like that,
[02:07.550 --> 02:09.670]  [ALLIE]: we're not going to like specifically talk about it.
[02:09.670 --> 02:14.370]  [BOB]: We're not going to shout you guys out because it's too hard for Darren to pull it.
[02:14.370 --> 02:15.210]  [BOB]: Yeah, we will at the end.
[02:15.730 --> 02:16.530]  [BOB]: So, all right.
[02:16.530 --> 02:20.510]  [BOB]: So we're going to start it from the top here, and we're going to get rolling.
[02:21.330 --> 02:22.970]  [BOB]: And I'm excited about tonight.
[02:23.070 --> 02:24.990]  [BOB]: I think you guys will find it really fascinating.
[02:25.510 --> 02:27.890]  [BOB]: Dr. Perlmutter is an exceptional mind.
[02:28.030 --> 02:29.190]  [BOB]: She's been doing this forever.
[02:29.410 --> 02:30.510]  [BOB]: She's super knowledgeable.
[02:31.370 --> 02:39.050]  [BOB]: And I'm excited that you guys get to hear it for yourself instead of hearing it from somebody else who may have had some kind of bias.
[02:39.750 --> 02:46.670]  [BOB]: So I think it'll be very, very educational, and hopefully it'll be a little bit entertaining as well.
[02:47.290 --> 02:55.510]  [ALLIE]: Amanda, if you can star, there is a way to see, like, if you can star member questions that are really good, we'll try to incorporate those too, if we can.
[02:57.570 --> 02:57.890]  [BOB]: All right.
[02:57.970 --> 02:58.490]  [BOB]: You ready, babe?
[02:59.430 --> 03:00.930]  [ALLIE]: I am ready.
[03:02.390 --> 03:02.830]  [BOB]: Okay.
[03:03.410 --> 03:05.810]  [BOB]: Welcome to the Docket presented by Defense Diaries.
[03:05.930 --> 03:14.150]  [BOB]: I'm your host, Bob Motta, and this is our continuing coverage of Delphi Unhinged, the people of the state of Indiana versus Richard M.
[03:14.290 --> 03:14.570]  [BOB]: Allen.
[03:15.290 --> 03:19.390]  [BOB]: And I am once again joined by my beautiful and brilliant co-host, Allie.
[03:19.470 --> 03:19.990]  [BOB]: What's up, girl?
[03:20.590 --> 03:21.030]  [ALLIE]: Hey, babe.
[03:21.130 --> 03:21.510]  [ALLIE]: Hey, all.
[03:22.350 --> 03:24.790]  [BOB]: So I'm excited, babe, about tonight's live.
[03:25.650 --> 03:33.670]  [BOB]: I was excited to get reached out to by this guest, and I'm really excited to have her on.
[03:33.850 --> 03:42.210]  [BOB]: We are going to be joined tonight by Dr. Perl... I'm sorry, Dr. Dawn Perlmutter, who is a brilliant doctor.
[03:42.210 --> 03:43.090]  [BOB]: She's a PhD.
[03:43.670 --> 03:46.170]  [BOB]: She's the director of the Symbol Intelligence Group.
[03:46.270 --> 03:52.970]  [BOB]: She's an adjunct professor at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine and their forensic medicine program.
[03:53.730 --> 04:04.850]  [BOB]: She is a recognized expert in the subject matter of dealing with ritualistic crime investigations, symbolic anthropology, atypical homicides.
[04:05.350 --> 04:12.890]  [BOB]: She's authored several books, including Ritualistic Crime Scene Investigation, which quite frankly is the field guide for law enforcement.
[04:13.110 --> 04:18.490]  [BOB]: She has consulted for the FBI, for Homeland Security, for the DEA, and other agencies.
[04:18.730 --> 04:27.470]  [BOB]: And she's been doing this for over 20 years, training all these guys who go out in the field and gals who go out in the field trying to solve crimes.
[04:27.590 --> 04:32.970]  [BOB]: And when they get to an unusual crime scene and they don't know what they're looking at, this is who they call.
[04:33.470 --> 04:36.810]  [BOB]: So without further ado, I am going to pull her on.
[04:37.710 --> 04:38.330]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Good evening.
[04:38.770 --> 04:39.950]  [BOB]: Welcome, Dr. Perlmutter.
[04:39.950 --> 04:41.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That was a great intro.
[04:41.970 --> 04:43.070]  [BOB]: How are you?
[04:43.570 --> 04:45.130]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Good, good.
[04:45.990 --> 04:52.350]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: This is my first live podcast, so it's exciting.
[04:53.230 --> 04:55.830]  [BOB]: Don't worry, you'll enjoy it.
[04:55.910 --> 04:58.230]  [BOB]: It'll be a great conversation, I'm sure.
[04:58.930 --> 05:01.070]  [BOB]: I'm really excited to get into a lot of it.
[05:01.470 --> 05:12.990]  [BOB]: Now, in terms of a little bit of your background, why don't you just give us as much or as little as you want to about, beyond what I just said, who are you and what do you do for a living?
[05:14.410 --> 05:25.550]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, I think the easiest way to describe it is if anybody's watched The Da Vinci Code, I'm kind of like the real life person in that.
[05:25.910 --> 05:28.010]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's a very specialized area.
[05:28.310 --> 05:37.670]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's not something they have classes on, but my career just sort of went in that direction.
[05:38.710 --> 05:46.030]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I started out actually as a philosophy professor.
[05:46.430 --> 05:48.270]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I was at University of Delaware.
[05:48.690 --> 05:52.550]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I taught critical thinking, which we certainly need more of.
[05:52.890 --> 05:54.310]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I went to University of Delaware.
[05:55.410 --> 05:59.870]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I left shortly after 9-11 to work.
[05:59.870 --> 06:13.790]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I was already working with police at that time, and I left shortly after 9-11 to work full time with different agencies on just identifying all these different types of atypical evidence.
[06:14.590 --> 06:33.290]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The background, what makes it my background for it is that my doctorate was in sort of methodologies, something called semiotics, which is the study of signs and symbols, and hermeneutics, which is the study of text.
[06:33.290 --> 06:44.390]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So essentially, when you do that, you're usually doing very sort of heady philosophical things, but I applied that to crime scenes.
[06:44.930 --> 06:53.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it really was useful because up to that point, everything was in psychology and behavioral analysis.
[06:54.350 --> 06:58.290]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So coming from entirely different interpretation.
[06:59.530 --> 07:01.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then, of course, just experience.
[07:02.210 --> 07:11.790]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Just from every time I would train different agencies, I'd be handed three different, can you look at this?
[07:11.870 --> 07:12.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Can you look at that?
[07:12.890 --> 07:29.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's everything from just simply identifying like an unusual symbol, all the way to an entire crime scene with a lot of unusual symbols, and then getting into the trauma.
[07:30.850 --> 07:42.850]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The one thing I just always tell them is that you know you're at a ritualistic crime scene, because it's always going to be something you've never seen before.
[07:43.570 --> 07:45.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You're just like, what is this?
[07:45.810 --> 07:50.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they're not typical.
[07:51.050 --> 07:51.310]  [BOB]: Yeah.
[07:52.070 --> 08:07.510]  [BOB]: And in terms of kind of with your expertise, I mean, is one of the things that you do is do you distinguish between, say, a ritualistic homicide and like a ritualistic crime scene itself?
[08:07.870 --> 08:15.630]  [BOB]: And wherein there are different types of crimes wherein one, you have a homicide and the other, maybe you have mutilation or just symbolism.
[08:15.890 --> 08:17.850]  [BOB]: I mean, are those the things that you're kind of looking at?
[08:18.350 --> 08:32.890]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, a lot of things that don't involve homicides are really just unfamiliar traditions, like a lot of animal sacrifice that is left, you know, different by the beach or at the railroad.
[08:33.230 --> 08:43.070]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it might be in a place where officers are not familiar with like voodoo or Santeria.
[08:43.530 --> 08:46.650]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And, you know, I just have to explain to them what that is.
[08:46.810 --> 08:51.450]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Everybody always thinks everything is Satanism when it really isn't.
[08:51.730 --> 08:55.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They just are not familiar with different kinds of things.
[08:55.550 --> 08:59.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So those are, they're not depending on what's done.
[08:59.930 --> 09:07.550]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, animal sacrifice is allowed, but you're not allowed to leave the animals on the beach for the little kids to come see.
[09:08.250 --> 09:11.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So those are sort of low level type of things.
[09:11.270 --> 09:18.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But then what you're describing is there's a difference between what's done to the animal.
[09:18.330 --> 09:22.070]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: If it's in one of these traditions, they just cut the throat.
[09:22.770 --> 09:34.750]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But if you have one that's been tortured, disemboweled, is not like chickens or ducks, but is, you know, a pet, a dog, that's entirely different.
[09:34.850 --> 09:37.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That's like little Johnny Serial Killer practicing.
[09:38.270 --> 09:47.810]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So what's done, you know, even with animals tells you the different types of things that are going on.
[09:48.210 --> 09:59.450]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then it just, you know, when you have a homicide scene, there's a lot of different types of things that are done.
[09:59.830 --> 10:12.870]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So depending on the trauma, for example, there was a horrible case in Baltimore where a little girl was set on fire and there were all kinds of ritual items.
[10:13.050 --> 10:19.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That was in an exorcism type ritual, a purification ritual.
[10:19.510 --> 10:31.930]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: If you have like a narco or cartel type killing, they actually do some really horrific ritual murders, but they do very specific things also.
[10:33.490 --> 10:38.550]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They'll have altars to Santa Muerte or beheadings.
[10:39.270 --> 10:43.370]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the satanic, there are actually people who practice these things.
[10:43.790 --> 10:45.250]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They can be pretty bad too.
[10:45.310 --> 10:47.370]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They usually involve torture and dismemberment.
[10:47.610 --> 10:58.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I know this sounds crazy, but, you know, each of the different, over the years, you just realize that the types of things you see fall into certain categories.
[10:59.350 --> 11:08.030]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And sometimes it's just somebody who's, you know, making up their own ideology.
[11:08.950 --> 11:16.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So it's not always associated with a particular culture or subculture.
[11:17.070 --> 11:35.770]  [ALLIE]: So can you have symbolism at a crime scene or even ritualistic symbolism without it being a ritual having taken place, without it necessarily being technically ritualistic, but still having symbolism that has roots in that?
[11:36.510 --> 11:37.550]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Oh, yes.
[11:37.670 --> 11:43.730]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, basically rituals are symbols in action.
[11:44.390 --> 11:50.470]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So if they're doing a ritual, it involves more ceremonial, there'll be different items there.
[11:51.350 --> 11:59.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: If there's just symbols, it could be just vandalism, or it could be just, you know, it's the intention of the person.
[12:00.510 --> 12:11.430]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So yeah, I get all kinds of inquiries for symbols that are found in all kinds of situations, and they're not ritualistic at all.
[12:11.550 --> 12:23.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Sometimes, you know, they're just a gang identifier or somebody, you know, all of these, every one of these groups brands themselves, like advertising brands.
[12:23.990 --> 12:28.210]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So you have all of that going on too.
[12:28.630 --> 12:33.310]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're literally like advertising in some ways.
[12:33.770 --> 12:35.290]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So it's not always a ritual.
[12:36.090 --> 12:50.270]  [ALLIE]: So as in like, for example, in this case, in the Richard Allen case, I kind of always thought of it more as there is ritualistic symbolism, symbolism that somebody identifies the theology behind.
[12:50.990 --> 13:04.190]  [ALLIE]: But it doesn't mean that, for example, there was a sacrifice that took place, even though the person that may have been involved in the crime identified with the theology that the symbols recognized.
[13:04.690 --> 13:06.930]  [ALLIE]: Does that make sense the way I'm saying?
[13:07.130 --> 13:08.190]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Oh, yeah, it makes sense.
[13:09.650 --> 13:34.030]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Basically, when I first started doing this, like 20, 25 years ago, it was much easier because prior to the Internet, these different traditions, people were raised in them and you'd have certain ethnicities or certain areas where they were taught these secret kind of rituals and they were a much purer form of it.
[13:34.550 --> 13:43.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, now what you have all the time is everybody just taking a little bit of this ideology and a little bit of that ritual.
[13:43.870 --> 13:54.570]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's actually called ideological convergence, where they may even start making it up as they go along and or they may be dabbling.
[13:55.310 --> 13:58.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It depends on how far they go in it.
[13:59.350 --> 14:10.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So also the types of things that are done, like they can be not necessarily sacrificial, can be a lot of initiation rites are done.
[14:10.690 --> 14:13.070]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There's a lot of expiation.
[14:13.590 --> 14:19.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There's different types of intentions, like I said before, exorcism type things.
[14:19.670 --> 14:50.210]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The Richard Allen case, that has a lot of elements of... well, the sacrificial elements are the way that they were... I don't know what words you're allowed to say online, but they also have kind of initiation, like specific trauma to Libby.
[14:50.510 --> 15:00.390]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The multiple cuts to me indicates that it might've had an initiation type.
[15:01.290 --> 15:03.470]  [ALLIE]: And that you're saying with Libby specifically?
[15:04.310 --> 15:25.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yes, there were... the trauma to her was definitely not... usually in that situation, when somebody is cutting the throat, they're not going to cut both carotid arteries and the jugular from both different sides.
[15:26.150 --> 15:26.550]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It just...
[15:27.210 --> 15:32.650]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: and then it appears that it was done several times.
[15:32.970 --> 15:38.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That looks to me like it could be multiple people.
[15:40.350 --> 15:58.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The other aspect is that it's... when you have these types of situations, a lot of times it's what's not there that tells me a lot.
[15:58.890 --> 16:04.650]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Like I said before, with the cartels, they will leave certain things.
[16:04.890 --> 16:23.810]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Sometimes it's a message and other times it's associated with drug... a lot of the rituals I do, a lot of the things I work on are associated with drug trafficking organizations or human trafficking organizations.
[16:25.350 --> 16:31.430]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the symbolism and the things that are done can have that feel.
[16:31.590 --> 16:33.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So I hope that answered the question.
[16:33.950 --> 16:34.570]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I wasn't sure.
[16:36.310 --> 16:37.850]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It was kind of all over.
[16:37.970 --> 16:38.790]  [BOB]: Yeah, it did.
[16:39.110 --> 16:41.390]  [BOB]: Well, and Allie jumped a little bit ahead.
[16:41.530 --> 16:46.390]  [BOB]: So how did you get involved with Richard Allen's case kind of in the beginning?
[16:47.110 --> 16:49.490]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I got into it very late.
[16:49.970 --> 16:55.470]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The first I even heard about it, because when I'm not working on these cases, I don't follow them.
[16:55.710 --> 16:58.930]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But I mean, I have so many that I've worked on.
[16:59.190 --> 17:12.550]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But the first time I was contacted after the Frank's memo came out by Court TV, and I think was contacted that day, I read it and gave my opinion.
[17:13.370 --> 17:15.950]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that I think was in like September 2023.
[17:16.450 --> 17:18.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then I just didn't think about it anymore.
[17:18.670 --> 17:25.150]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then I was contacted by the defense in April 2024.
[17:25.730 --> 17:28.030]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So I testified on August 1st.
[17:28.230 --> 17:35.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That was not on... there was... this case, you needed a lot more time than that to get up to speed.
[17:37.050 --> 17:39.370]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that's just what happens.
[17:39.550 --> 17:47.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, sometimes I'll get called in really early on, and it'll be going on for two years.
[17:47.830 --> 17:50.930]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: A lot of times it's right before they're about to testify.
[17:52.650 --> 18:09.670]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But in this particular case, it was very... there was so much symbolism and so many aspects to it that it was very difficult to just get it all together by that time.
[18:09.750 --> 18:10.250]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But I did.
[18:10.510 --> 18:19.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, but certainly since then, I've been able to look at more things.
[18:20.830 --> 18:20.990]  [BOB]: Yeah.
[18:21.130 --> 18:24.070]  [BOB]: And I was there for that three days of hearing.
[18:24.190 --> 18:27.390]  [BOB]: I was there for the day that you testified.
[18:27.490 --> 18:37.010]  [BOB]: And, you know, I want to address that because McLeland, Nick McLeland, the prosecutor, had brought up the fact that you had been contacted because you're an expert.
[18:37.250 --> 18:40.030]  [BOB]: I mean, I'm on Court TV all the time myself.
[18:40.370 --> 18:45.990]  [BOB]: So it's not unusual if they've got a case and they're looking for an expert in the field, they're going to call you, right?
[18:46.090 --> 18:48.950]  [BOB]: So there's nothing untoward about that.
[18:49.030 --> 18:51.830]  [BOB]: You had no idea that you were going to get retained for the case.
[18:52.730 --> 19:19.210]  [BOB]: But the kind of the question that I want you to address, because I know what the answer is, is based on your initial instincts in terms of having read the Franks and then going on Court TV, Nick McLeland insinuated that, oh, well, you know, because it would professionally harm you if you were to come on to the stand today and change your opinion based on you now having seen more of the evidence.
[19:19.710 --> 19:21.870]  [BOB]: I mean, like, what's your full response to that?
[19:21.910 --> 19:27.150]  [BOB]: Because I know I was there for that hearing and McLeland did not give you a real opportunity to answer that.
[19:27.970 --> 19:39.790]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, basically, my initial review was that it was a ritual homicide.
[19:40.270 --> 19:45.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And when I saw the evidence, it just confirmed it.
[19:45.650 --> 19:52.950]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It had nothing to do with once I saw it not confirming it, I would have said that and then I wouldn't have been there.
[19:54.490 --> 20:27.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's just the elements of, you know, the date, the location, the trauma, all of those, the symbolism, the use of natural objects, all of that was, I wouldn't, I didn't from reading the Frank's memo, those meet the criteria for a ritualistic crime.
[20:28.330 --> 20:36.770]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So when I saw the evidence, which was substantial, I just had even more things confirming it.
[20:38.390 --> 20:49.690]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yeah, when you have to go to the point where you're saying you were on court TV and that's all you've got, that's all you've got to invalidate me is that I went on court TV.
[20:50.290 --> 20:55.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I wanted to say that, like, you know, you don't have anything else.
[20:56.150 --> 20:59.110]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So I just, I didn't think much of it.
[20:59.850 --> 21:05.650]  [BOB]: Yeah, there's another prosecutor out there currently that does what we call Ipsy Dixit and that's where he just says things.
[21:05.790 --> 21:09.650]  [BOB]: He doesn't bring on his own expert to try to challenge what you're saying.
[21:09.850 --> 21:14.310]  [BOB]: He just tries to trash the expert and which is what McLeland did to you.
[21:14.310 --> 21:17.370]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, that was, that was something.
[21:17.510 --> 21:19.450]  [BOB]: Yeah, it was, it was interesting.
[21:19.670 --> 21:33.510]  [BOB]: And, and, you know, and frankly with, with the judge that he had on the bench, it was all he needed because she was very much inclined not to allow third party culprit evidence in any way.
[21:33.850 --> 21:39.890]  [BOB]: So, you know, anything that she could hang her hat on in terms of saying, okay, well, you know, that's enough for me.
[21:40.650 --> 21:44.250]  [BOB]: Uh, I mean, McLeland was allowed to rely on that.
[21:44.350 --> 22:06.550]  [BOB]: So kind of digging into what you saw, why don't we start talking a little bit about what did you see in the evidence that you were able to see from the crime scene that, that made you reach the conclusion that this was, added some ritualistic, uh, impact in terms of it being that type of a crime.
[22:06.550 --> 22:23.750]  [BOB]: And we'll kind of dig into what Alison was digging into because it's always kind of been Alison and I's theory that it wasn't necessarily a ritual per se, but that it could have been people that had Norse paganism type, uh, you know, ideologies and, you know,
[22:23.770 --> 22:27.650]  [BOB]: they, they really liked runes and those were things that were important to them personally.
[22:27.870 --> 22:43.850]  [BOB]: And while it wasn't actually, uh, a ritual per se that those things were left, uh, you know, it is kind of, uh, an ode to what they believe in or, you know, so we'll dig into that, but what are the things that you look for typically at a crime scene that,
[22:43.850 --> 22:50.290]  [BOB]: that tell you, Hey, this is atypical and we might have something else that we're dealing with here.
[22:51.230 --> 23:14.350]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, um, I guess the easiest way to describe this is just to say, um, the state's theory was that it was committed by one person, um, Richard Allen, and that, um, their whole argument is, was based on it being a counter forensic measure by him.
[23:14.450 --> 23:20.210]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: In other words, um, the branches were put on them so he could hide the girls.
[23:20.350 --> 23:23.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The bloodstain on the tree was just blood spatter.
[23:24.150 --> 23:44.950]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, that they were trying to take something that anybody could see was not typical and just say that, um, uh, that the, the, everything was normal, you know, like it was just a way to hide from the police, which is what a counter forensic measure is.
[23:45.070 --> 23:49.670]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the interesting thing about that is that's how they're trained.
[23:50.230 --> 24:14.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, police are trained that, you know, in just basic, um, rational thinking, um, and behavioral analysis, it never occurs to them, which it, which it does to me is that, um, the, um, combination of the things or the fact that it was outdoors in a clearing near the water,
[24:15.290 --> 24:29.230]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: um, that, uh, the bodies were obviously positioned, um, because there's no way that, um, one person could do all the things that were done in that amount of time.
[24:29.410 --> 24:33.250]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And, um, the bodies weren't covered.
[24:33.450 --> 24:35.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's like, they, they weren't covered.
[24:35.850 --> 24:42.310]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They were these branches, um, and one, uh, by the way, was not a branch.
[24:42.490 --> 24:43.310]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It was a tree.
[24:43.670 --> 24:48.750]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: This was a tree that I don't think Richard Allen could have even lifted himself.
[24:49.310 --> 24:53.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And he certainly couldn't have lifted, um, Libby by, by himself.
[24:53.970 --> 24:54.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There were no drag marks.
[24:55.070 --> 24:57.270]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So that's what you have a lot.
[24:57.390 --> 24:58.870]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that's what they were trying to do.
[24:58.910 --> 25:08.150]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They were trying to sort of, um, rationalize everything that fits into sort of a typical kind of thing.
[25:08.350 --> 25:10.490]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You know, somebody gets caught, they're going to try to hide.
[25:10.730 --> 25:19.810]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But, um, everybody who's followed this case has to see that that is not, um, you know, one girl in the clothes of another girl.
[25:19.910 --> 25:22.150]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're just not typical things.
[25:22.150 --> 25:45.690]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then when you start adding in, um, the, uh, uh, basically the, the symbol, the mark on the tree, um, you had, um, the, uh, I guess it was Major Cicero who, who testified.
[25:45.850 --> 25:52.770]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I have his report and what he testified to is the blood stain pattern analysis.
[25:53.890 --> 26:00.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, what he test, what he wrote in the report and what he testified to were very different.
[26:01.130 --> 26:14.150]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, in the report, he literally said that it was plausible, very plausible that the mark in blood on the tree, which was in Libby's blood, could have been painted.
[26:14.730 --> 26:25.790]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The only reason he sort of minimized that was because he said, well, they would have to keep, um, going back to the source and marking the tree.
[26:26.390 --> 26:35.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It never occurs to him that in these types of crimes with such exsanguination and, uh, blood loss that they probably collected the blood.
[26:35.770 --> 26:37.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, that's very common.
[26:38.170 --> 26:40.190]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They, they didn't go back to her.
[26:40.270 --> 26:41.850]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They had it collected.
[26:42.670 --> 26:49.330]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So that would never occur to someone who does blood stain because why would it?
[26:49.430 --> 26:51.230]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, they don't have that kind of background.
[26:52.170 --> 26:54.850]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, but he did acknowledge that it was plausible.
[26:56.210 --> 27:00.430]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, and I'm not, and then, and the jury didn't hear that.
[27:00.510 --> 27:20.870]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: He, he wrote it in the report and he, I think at the pre-trial hearing, um, said it, but the jury just said, oh, it's just, um, blood spatter, blood flow, or, and that, um, somehow Libby who had, um, both carotid arteries jugular was able to stand up,
[27:21.090 --> 27:33.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: go to the tree, leave her mark, sit down, bleed out there, and then still be bleeding when she, it just, none of that made any sense. Um so it’s
[27:34.230 --> 27:40.150]  [BOB]: Let me, so I'm going to put this up.
[27:40.370 --> 27:51.130]  [BOB]: So Barb McDonald of Court TV, she had, she put in for some of the evidence and she ended up, uh, she was kind enough to send this exhibit to me.
[27:51.210 --> 28:00.870]  [BOB]: This was state's exhibit and it, it's essentially a diagram that was created, uh, to, to show what the crime scene looked like.
[28:00.890 --> 28:14.030]  [BOB]: So we can, we can get an idea here of what you've been talking about in terms of kind of the numbers of sticks, you know, that, that thing that you were talking about that wasn't a stick, but was actually a tree limb, a rather large tree limb.
[28:14.130 --> 28:29.350]  [BOB]: You can see over Libby's left arm there, and you can see the positioning of the bodies as well, along with what to look like two relatively bigger sized, uh, pools of blood there.
[28:30.670 --> 28:39.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So you can see how far away the tree is that she left the, that had the symbol on it.
[28:39.730 --> 28:44.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, that's a lot of moving around with those kinds of injuries.
[28:46.310 --> 28:47.510]  [BOB]: Yeah, definitely.
[28:48.250 --> 29:05.670]  [BOB]: Um, so in terms of what we're looking at here, and I think that the way McLeland questioned you when you were on the stand is he had said, Oh, well, the BAU said that this was an undoing, which was what you were talking about.
[29:05.990 --> 29:22.850]  [BOB]: Now, in terms of your experience and what you've seen with respect to your years and years of doing this with, with that amount of sticks in any way, shape or form ever constitute in your estimation an undoing?
[29:23.630 --> 29:25.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, that's interesting too.
[29:26.070 --> 29:33.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The undoing is basically refers to a symbolic reversal of the crime.
[29:34.130 --> 29:51.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's when, um, typically when, you know, a husband or domestic violence kills his wife and then regrets it, but then puts her back in the bed and tucks her in and, and stages the scene, you know, because kind of feels remorse.
[29:52.070 --> 29:55.470]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, that's, that's a behavioral analysis concept.
[29:55.590 --> 30:06.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Then it does happen, but that didn't happen here because, you know, you're trying to essentially with undoing, you're trying to give the person dignity and death.
[30:07.070 --> 30:11.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You're also trying to, you know, mislead the investigator sometimes.
[30:12.270 --> 30:18.470]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But, um, both the girls, um, their, their eyes were open, their mouths were open.
[30:18.870 --> 30:19.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Libby was nude.
[30:19.710 --> 30:21.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That's not dignity and death.
[30:22.110 --> 30:30.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That's not somebody feeling remorse about, you know, they would never pose them that way if it wasn't undoing.
[30:30.290 --> 30:35.950]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, and, and again, it always goes back to the concept of this.
[30:36.330 --> 30:41.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Everybody's trained from a FBI behavioral analysis.
[30:41.050 --> 30:52.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're always looking for the psychological explanation, but these types of cases, people aren't thinking from a Western rational perspective.
[30:52.530 --> 30:56.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're thinking from what's called magical thinking.
[30:58.070 --> 31:11.190]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, and all of the third party suspects were absolutely deeply involved in everything they did showed that they, they believed in, um, in these magical ideologies.
[31:11.490 --> 31:26.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So the difference is they're looking at it and again, thinking, okay, it must be this, um, instead of thinking that, okay, they were positioned this way because you have to do these certain things.
[31:27.370 --> 31:52.390]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: If you're doing a ritual or a ceremony, that's going to, um, either be, give me protection from Odin or, you know, every one of the, um, any kind of ritual ceremony, uh, especially animal sacrifice or they're doing it because they believe that the things they're doing are going to,
[31:52.410 --> 31:56.310]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: um, intervene in the world.
[31:56.490 --> 32:03.230]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So it's, it's a completely illogical concept of cause and effect, but everybody does it.
[32:03.330 --> 32:08.310]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, prayer, when you pray, um, that's not logical.
[32:08.310 --> 32:13.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You think if you, if you go to church and you pray that, you know, certain things will happen.
[32:13.810 --> 32:15.490]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, that's magical thinking also.
[32:16.490 --> 32:31.750]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, they just take it to another level and, and, um, superstitions are a form of magical thinking, but crime scenes, they just always think in terms of psychology and behavioral analysis.
[32:32.110 --> 32:38.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And, um, that's really a huge problem in the interpretation of everything that's going on here.
[32:39.010 --> 32:42.350]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, it's, it's a methodological problem.
[32:43.450 --> 32:47.870]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, so does that explain it a little bit?
[32:48.490 --> 32:53.710]  [BOB]: Um, yeah, that absolutely answers my question.
[32:53.970 --> 33:19.810]  [BOB]: So in terms of your experience in dealing with law enforcement, whether it be local, whether it be Feds of some sort, I mean, is that, is that a common occurrence that you run into wherein you have law enforcement agencies that are just incapable of looking at it any other way than in terms of logical thinking?
[33:19.810 --> 33:27.070]  [BOB]: Because when you use the word magical thinking, it, it gives people, you know, it makes people giggle.
[33:27.150 --> 33:28.890]  [BOB]: They're like, Oh magic, it's magic.
[33:29.030 --> 33:33.690]  [BOB]: But the way that you described it, the way that it, it, it really drove it home.
[33:33.690 --> 33:38.370]  [BOB]: Cause when you first said it at the hearing, I kind of had the same initial impact.
[33:38.370 --> 33:39.510]  [BOB]: I'm like magical thinking.
[33:39.650 --> 33:56.150]  [BOB]: And then when you, when you, you made it as clear as this, that if you think about even just prayer, prayer, no matter what your religion is, the concept of praying to some, to a God in the hopes that something will happen from that is magical thinking.
[33:56.570 --> 33:58.290]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And let me be clear.
[33:58.390 --> 34:00.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I'm not making this concept up.
[34:00.670 --> 34:05.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, this has been a field of study for a long time.
[34:05.430 --> 34:09.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, magical thinking also occurs at, in childhood.
[34:10.150 --> 34:22.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's a stage in childhood where, you know, if they bang their knee on the table and you go bad table, you know, they're, it's literally not something, a term I made up.
[34:22.730 --> 34:24.770]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's a whole field of study.
[34:25.450 --> 34:32.670]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And things have gotten better with some of the behavioral analysts are starting to consider these things.
[34:33.130 --> 34:39.190]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: When I train law enforcement, I literally do mock crime scenes.
[34:39.190 --> 34:45.130]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I, I always set them up in the woods and I always do things with natural objects.
[34:45.170 --> 34:48.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I do things with, with sticks, with rocks.
[34:48.650 --> 34:54.470]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I tell them that you're standing on evidence right now.
[34:54.790 --> 34:57.190]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, that's it.
[34:57.350 --> 35:03.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I've done dozens of those types of trainings and it really, until they get that, they tell me they never understood.
[35:04.250 --> 35:06.310]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Like there's things nailed to trees.
[35:06.650 --> 35:18.570]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There's symbols in, uh, carved in or in rocks and they use, these are all nature-based ideologies.
[35:18.570 --> 35:20.690]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So they use things in nature.
[35:20.910 --> 35:29.570]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So what happened here at this particular scene, the, all those sticks you're showing, they didn't collect them.
[35:29.990 --> 35:38.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Not only did they have blood stain evidence, they probably had trace evidence, but they didn't know.
[35:38.310 --> 35:39.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, you know, they just don't know.
[35:40.250 --> 35:41.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Although I think in that case they should have.
[35:42.650 --> 35:48.410]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Now, the interesting thing, one of the things I asked is what was the species of trees that were there?
[35:48.930 --> 35:58.030]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And in Major Cicero's report, he brought in an arborist that told him the specific pine tree because he had to recreate it.
[35:59.090 --> 36:01.270]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But that was seven years later.
[36:01.270 --> 36:06.270]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The interesting thing about some of those branches, they were clean cut with tools.
[36:07.030 --> 36:25.490]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So if they were there, they could have checked to see if they were branches from the trees or if somebody brought them there, you know, like if they were a different species, because I think I'm, and one of the things I came across that somebody had these,
[36:25.950 --> 36:33.890]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: you know, in their garage or something, but that's just something that would have been important to do.
[36:33.970 --> 36:51.210]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Because in, for example, there's something called Palo Mayombe that a lot of drug traffickers do, where they have to use 21 sticks, and they have to have like a human skull, and they don't kill them, but they rob graves.
[36:51.610 --> 36:57.670]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But they have to have, these 21 sticks have to be from different trees, and they bring them to the scene.
[36:57.990 --> 37:02.010]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So nobody's going to be thinking like that, unless they know things like that.
[37:03.110 --> 37:11.230]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So that was, you know, something that was overlooked in forensic and symbolic reasons.
[37:11.870 --> 37:34.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Another thing that was kind of upsetting about the the bloodstain pattern report was that the, not only did the jury might not have known this was done seven years later, but when he did his experiment, and they do experiments later, and try to recreate them,
[37:34.750 --> 37:38.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: and he took his own blood, it wasn't done in Delphi.
[37:38.930 --> 37:43.790]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It was done in, I think, La Porte, Indiana.
[37:44.270 --> 37:46.030]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And he wrote his report.
[37:46.190 --> 37:57.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: He had a test subject who was the same height as Libby, five foot four, because he really wanted to see if the symbol on the tree was made by blood transfer.
[37:59.450 --> 38:05.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that was, you know, he said it could have been painted on, but his final thing was it was blood transfer.
[38:06.150 --> 38:25.270]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Then he writes the report, I think a couple weeks later, then goes to the actual crime scene, and he wrote an addendum to the report saying that once he was at the crime scene, the topography had dropped significantly, that he couldn't tell from the photos.
[38:25.850 --> 38:28.410]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So did that throw off all the measurements?
[38:28.410 --> 38:37.690]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Like, so there was just some technical things that, you know, were problematic.
[38:38.350 --> 38:52.890]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's, you know, I think a lot of it is just, especially with something like bloodstains, and that's the hard thing to recreate seven years later.
[38:53.410 --> 39:09.690]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But he was, you know, his testimony really made it, fell in with the, this is not a symbol, this is not, you know, he just, you know, the sticks were just random, they were there to cover the body.
[39:10.150 --> 39:17.370]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's like, you know, there was a theory, and everybody that testified was supporting that theory.
[39:17.850 --> 39:24.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And we weren't allowed to testify to give our view on it.
[39:25.310 --> 39:33.950]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the mark on the tree, that's very common, very, very common at these types of scenes.
[39:35.510 --> 39:51.670]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And what was interesting is one of the third party suspects had a month on social media, there was a lot going on on social media, part of this Odinist group.
[39:51.910 --> 39:53.730]  [BOB]: So I'm gonna pull these up.
[39:53.950 --> 39:55.900]  [BOB]: Now, you were able to pull these offline.
[39:56.990 --> 39:57.450]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yes.
[39:57.570 --> 40:00.670]  [BOB]: These two images here, which are interesting.
[40:01.230 --> 40:23.670]  [BOB]: And like, you sent me these two, and I think ultimately they were in, they were put into evidence, or at least at the hearings, because again, remember, in terms of what the defense could get into at trial, in terms of challenging Cicero, anything that even sniffed of ritualism,
[40:24.050 --> 40:27.630]  [BOB]: of Odinism, they would have been shut down immediately.
[40:27.950 --> 40:37.930]  [BOB]: McLean would have been yelling about a mistrial, like Judge Gull, like silenced the defense on everything even pertaining to anything relating to that.
[40:37.930 --> 40:47.010]  [BOB]: So anything that they would have been able to challenge them on at trial proper, would have been absolutely shut down.
[40:47.050 --> 41:02.550]  [BOB]: So they were really hamstrung in terms of what they could do, in terms of trying to challenge anything that Cicero was saying, other than, you know, Augé was able to say, okay, she finally got him, which she did at the hearing as well.
[41:02.590 --> 41:13.190]  [BOB]: And I don't know if you sat in for that, but she got him in to admit that the coverage of the bodies was approximately 3% of the bodies were covered by sticks.
[41:14.270 --> 41:22.090]  [BOB]: Which, you know, in my estimation, really goes a long way in terms of kind of destroying the concept that somebody was trying to hide the bodies.
[41:22.770 --> 41:24.230]  [BOB]: So what are we looking at here?
[41:25.030 --> 41:32.350]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, this was posted March 25th, Asartre Warriors of Midgard.
[41:32.890 --> 41:39.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And basically, this person is, it's an altar, it's an Odinist altar outside.
[41:40.410 --> 41:49.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And he's talking about how on that tree, he had put a rune symbol in his own blood.
[41:50.150 --> 41:54.110]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And he is talking about how it's still there two weeks later.
[41:54.990 --> 42:03.430]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Now, there was what I think was a rune symbol on the tree at the crime scene that nobody supposedly knew about.
[42:03.690 --> 42:13.850]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But you have this picture appearing with somebody talking about blood in a symbol on the tree.
[42:14.470 --> 42:32.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And one of the third party suspects is part of this group and is basically, you know, connected not just through the Odinism beliefs, but his son was dating one of the victims.
[42:32.210 --> 42:33.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So you have that connection too.
[42:34.130 --> 42:44.930]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So this is the interesting thing about, and there was a lot of social media, it established that they were doing blood rituals.
[42:45.470 --> 42:48.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Okay, that seems like a simple thing, putting blood on the tree.
[42:49.050 --> 42:51.410]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But that's not just a symbol.
[42:51.630 --> 42:54.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: When you're using blood, it's giving it efficacy.
[42:55.550 --> 42:57.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's really what's called a sigil.
[42:58.350 --> 43:03.390]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So it's not just making a mark, but you can do that in anything.
[43:03.450 --> 43:04.490]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You can do that in paint.
[43:04.710 --> 43:07.110]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: When you're doing it in blood, it has more meaning.
[43:07.230 --> 43:09.490]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they know this because they write about it.
[43:10.330 --> 43:13.030]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they were all doing blood rituals.
[43:13.310 --> 43:16.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That person was also blooding the runes.
[43:16.290 --> 43:21.250]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they've had a pretty deep knowledge of these types of things.
[43:21.630 --> 43:36.570]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But it's pretty shocking that you have a symbol on a tree about the same height as the symbol in Libby's blood on the tree, and connected to a person to one of the victims.
[43:37.450 --> 43:41.710]  [ALLIE]: So is the height to you like that the height is similar, significant?
[43:42.650 --> 43:55.650]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, I mean, it's just, I think it's just another, I don't know if it has that much significance, but it's not like all the way up at the top.
[43:55.830 --> 44:13.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it was only significant because Major Cicero was trying to claim that because she was five foot four, and the way her arms would have hit the tree at that moment, even though when he got to the actual crime scene, the ground was, it would have been thrown off by a lot of inches.
[44:14.590 --> 44:21.690]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But I just really get upset when I think that it, to me, it was not blood transfer.
[44:22.970 --> 44:29.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And this is because I've seen this so many times, it's not even an unusual thing to do.
[44:29.430 --> 44:36.930]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But the significant thing is that they were all part of this ideology, and they had connections to that area.
[44:37.710 --> 44:44.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They were all already, there was animal sacrifice with one of the people also.
[44:45.010 --> 44:51.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So to me, the difference between somebody just dabbling is when they start using blood.
[44:51.610 --> 45:09.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it escalates because they start, part of the belief is that if you do these things, you're either, whatever he's asking for protection or whatever, they go from sort of dabblers to true believers.
[45:10.610 --> 45:12.930]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then they want to do more and more.
[45:13.970 --> 45:27.210]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The motivations are usually the same, money, sex, drugs, but they just do it magically instead of their typical type of thing.
[45:27.210 --> 45:30.390]  [ALLIE]: Now, is that like a shofar or what is that?
[45:30.650 --> 45:31.850]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's a ram's horn.
[45:33.110 --> 45:41.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The hammer, the runes, the mead, those are all things you would see on an altar.
[45:42.430 --> 45:52.210]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the same person also had altars he posted with knives, and ritual knives are really important.
[45:52.250 --> 45:59.610]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The one thing about ritualistic crimes is you don't get gunshot wounds.
[45:59.970 --> 46:08.390]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're always knives because it doesn't work if you're using a gun.
[46:08.650 --> 46:09.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's not the same thing.
[46:10.450 --> 46:21.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that whole business of the box cutter, which just sort of got thrown in at the last minute, everybody's talking about a box cutter, that's unlikely.
[46:23.510 --> 46:43.070]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And here you had someone who was posting photos of the blooded runes, not in this picture, but another one, with his ritual knife, which when you look at it would have made the same type of mark and the hilt on it would have made that mark that they couldn't figure out.
[46:43.210 --> 46:51.130]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Remember, they testified that it was probably the thing on the box cutter that made the serrated part.
[46:51.610 --> 46:56.870]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But it's probably the hilt and the knives.
[46:57.530 --> 46:59.290]  [ALLIE]: When you say the hilt, what do you mean?
[46:59.750 --> 47:06.310]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: When you have knives, there's different parts, and they have that ornate part that's
[47:10.010 --> 47:17.110]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: it's between the part you hold and what holds the knife in.
[47:17.250 --> 47:22.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's usually very fancy and has, and they had one with runes carved into it too.
[47:24.210 --> 47:36.470]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So it's, in these cases, they never, you don't find the murder weapon because that would be the most important thing they would keep.
[47:37.090 --> 47:46.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Like there was a case that was mentioned out in Toledo where the nun was murdered on Easter Saturday in a ritual killing.
[47:46.890 --> 47:51.570]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: He was caught, and that was a 20-year cold case, because he kept the weapon.
[47:51.710 --> 47:52.350]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: He kept it.
[47:52.410 --> 47:55.270]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It was in his drawer next to his bed.
[47:55.670 --> 48:02.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They literally exhumed her, and it was such a unique sort of point that that's what did it.
[48:03.150 --> 48:07.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They always, I can't tell you how many cases I worked on where they keep that.
[48:07.830 --> 48:13.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And nobody tested any of those knives for bloodstains, or that's what they should have been testing.
[48:15.630 --> 48:22.070]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I don't, the whole box cutter thing is not consistent, not with the wounds either.
[48:22.590 --> 48:25.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, that it just to me wasn't consistent.
[48:26.090 --> 48:32.770]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But then when you're, it's kind of an arrogant thing too to post all these things on social media.
[48:32.990 --> 48:44.490]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But the reason that happens is because as they feel they got away with it, like it's like, how do I explain it?
[48:45.370 --> 48:54.770]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Like cartels, when they do their rituals, they do them so that they're, where they're trafficking drugs, they'll be protected and the police won't catch them.
[48:54.770 --> 49:01.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So when it works, they do more, and they show it more.
[49:02.370 --> 49:06.330]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they're kind of proud that their ritual is working.
[49:07.190 --> 49:23.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So to me, these social media pictures that were like on the year anniversary, the painting of how Libby was positioned, the Odin painting, that's like saying, okay, I'm doing another offering to you because I got away with it.
[49:23.790 --> 49:29.790]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's like, it's not an arrogance as much as just proving how they believe it.
[49:30.470 --> 49:31.890]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that's what happens.
[49:32.110 --> 49:34.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that's the way to catch them, actually.
[49:36.430 --> 49:37.730]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: If that makes sense.
[49:38.130 --> 49:39.490]  [BOB]: Yeah, that makes total sense.
[49:39.810 --> 49:51.030]  [BOB]: So looking back at this particular, now, as far as the stick formations, and just describe what you're looking at.
[49:51.110 --> 50:01.090]  [ALLIE]: We're looking at a drawing rendering of the girls' bodies, the placement of the sticks, the blood, where the tree is located.
[50:01.690 --> 50:05.250]  [ALLIE]: And this, like you mentioned before, was the exhibit that you had gotten.
[50:05.610 --> 50:06.610]  [ALLIE]: So sorry, go ahead, babe.
[50:07.450 --> 50:15.570]  [BOB]: So as far as the formation that we see on Abby here, which looks like almost like an asterisk.
[50:15.570 --> 50:27.050]  [BOB]: And then you've got the stick formations on Libby, which again, you have the, looks to be a 10 to 12 foot tree limb that's over her raised left arm.
[50:27.210 --> 50:37.010]  [BOB]: And then you've got a couple, it looks like maybe five or six smaller sticks that all look to be positioned purposefully or purposefully to me.
[50:37.150 --> 50:43.650]  [BOB]: And then interestingly, on the pool down here, the largest pool, it looks like there's another formation.
[50:44.070 --> 50:48.730]  [BOB]: What were you able to gather from looking at those?
[50:48.790 --> 50:50.650]  [BOB]: Did you consider those to be runes?
[50:51.310 --> 51:00.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, it's always, it can be very difficult in something like this to be that specific.
[51:01.830 --> 51:05.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The one thing I can absolutely say is they were not random.
[51:05.850 --> 51:10.810]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: These did not just randomly, even somebody trying to cover her body.
[51:11.050 --> 51:12.130]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're very specific.
[51:12.690 --> 51:25.110]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The interesting thing about the one on Abby is that I do think that was a rune.
[51:25.190 --> 51:30.350]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I think it was what's called a bind rune, which is a combination of two different runes.
[51:30.370 --> 51:46.510]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the reason I thought that was because, again, on the social media that there was the same third-party suspect had a tattoo or had a marking in the exact same shape.
[51:47.210 --> 51:54.570]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And he's talking about how he combined the Gevo rune and the Issa rune, and he did a ritual as he's talking about it.
[51:54.590 --> 51:58.270]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: He's actually chanting it in some ways.
[51:58.790 --> 52:00.390]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that is consistent.
[52:02.450 --> 52:13.610]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's always hard to be 100% with this, but it sort of makes sense in the context of all that other things going on.
[52:13.870 --> 52:20.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Because what I usually get, to be honest with you, what I usually get are a lot of pentagrams.
[52:20.050 --> 52:23.730]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: With the satanic cases I have, they're cut in the body.
[52:24.110 --> 52:25.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're everywhere.
[52:26.790 --> 52:32.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And you definitely get exsanguination, not enough blood.
[52:33.350 --> 52:39.230]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That, again, is another big indicator of a ritualistic crime.
[52:39.530 --> 52:50.390]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's just because they, especially when there's markings on a tree with blood, that's like just across the board, you get that a lot.
[52:51.610 --> 53:13.110]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So, it's difficult to tell, but because they were posting... the other thing about Abbey is on that year anniversary, he did a painting of Odin on the you know, tree.
[53:13.970 --> 53:18.790]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It happens to be one of the tarot cards, but it has nothing to do with tarot.
[53:19.110 --> 53:24.870]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But it's Odin, and she's positioned exactly like that.
[53:25.330 --> 53:31.210]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the interesting thing is the typical tarot card has the bent leg going the other.
[53:31.290 --> 53:38.130]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's usually the other leg that's bent, but he has it painted exactly the way she's positioned.
[53:39.010 --> 53:44.550]  [ALLIE]: So, in the tarot card, it's the other foot, but he painted it incorrectly.
[53:45.010 --> 53:47.630]  [ALLIE]: And that painting matches this.
[53:47.630 --> 53:49.670]  [ALLIE]: I'm going to pull up that painting.
[53:49.790 --> 53:56.350]  [ALLIE]: But before I do, I wanted to ask you about the blood with the sticks in it.
[53:56.450 --> 53:59.090]  [ALLIE]: What is significant there?
[53:59.350 --> 54:10.730]  [ALLIE]: And I don't know if you could tell from when you looked at the actual photos of the crime scene, if the sticks are placed, you know, was the blood already there and the sticks placed there?
[54:11.310 --> 54:19.330]  [ALLIE]: Or were the sticks placed and then, you know, and then... 
[54:20.670 --> 54:47.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I think the sticks were placed afterwards. Now, the really interesting thing about the bloodstain is that, like I said before, she had those wounds and supposedly, they said, made the mark on the tree and sort of let out there and was either dragged, which I don't think so.
[54:47.690 --> 54:49.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There were no drag marks, but carried there.
[54:49.830 --> 54:51.750]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That's a lot of time.
[54:52.150 --> 54:53.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: She's not conscious at that point.
[54:54.470 --> 54:56.450]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And her head turned.
[54:57.170 --> 55:06.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So there were, Major Cicero said blood flow, but even he said there was atypical blood flow on her face.
[55:07.830 --> 55:10.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it really was atypical.
[55:11.030 --> 55:16.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: In fact, everything is going one way and then one defies gravity.
[55:17.770 --> 55:21.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Literally, he acknowledges it.
[55:22.510 --> 55:26.870]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And another bloodstain person acknowledged it.
[55:27.550 --> 55:29.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's another marking.
[55:30.210 --> 55:31.370]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's another symbol.
[55:32.070 --> 55:40.770]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There, in my opinion, that was not, there's no way that could have happened with blood flow or blood transfer.
[55:41.210 --> 55:42.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: She's unconscious at that point.
[55:42.970 --> 55:48.350]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it literally loops around and is not driven.
[55:48.570 --> 55:50.850]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So that wasn't brought out.
[55:51.630 --> 55:58.250]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I would have, and we'll never see, you really need the closeup to see it.
[55:59.030 --> 56:01.330]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're going to seal, that photo will be sealed.
[56:01.450 --> 56:05.410]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But if everybody saw it, they would see exactly what I'm talking about.
[56:05.410 --> 56:21.470]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, it's unfortunate that those exhibits aren't out there because just like the tree, it's another inexplicable mark that is very common in ritualistic crimes.
[56:22.090 --> 56:32.310]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: In that case in Toledo, when she was, I don't know if you can say murdered, but her blood was placed on her head.
[56:32.310 --> 56:33.770]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They do it to anoint.
[56:33.970 --> 56:43.610]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: A lot of times the face is touched and that was very inconsistent and it wasn't talked about at all.
[56:44.670 --> 56:52.470]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They probably would have tried to come up with something else, but he was honest enough to say that there was, it didn't make sense.
[56:52.730 --> 57:14.390]  [ALLIE]: So did you see, and I'm going to pull up that other painting picture next, but when you looked at photos, did you happen to see any of the pictures of Abby's hands specifically for the lack of blood or what appeared to be a mark inside a smear of blood?
[57:15.110 --> 57:16.470]  [ALLIE]: Do you recall anything about that?
[57:16.490 --> 57:25.750]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yeah, there was some kind of, looked like where somebody would hold something and then it's not there.
[57:27.310 --> 57:28.610]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yeah, I didn't notice that.
[57:28.770 --> 57:41.570]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, I do agree with him that she probably did try to, at some point, probably when she was there bleeding out, that is the natural thing to try to stop it.
[57:41.910 --> 57:46.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But it's not natural to be touching your face and making symbols.
[57:46.850 --> 57:56.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I had identified it was consistent with the other symbolism too, but we just didn't present that.
[57:57.050 --> 57:57.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It wasn't presented.
[57:58.270 --> 58:12.070]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So when you have two different unusual markings, the placement of, it's just, at the very least, it's not a counter-forensic measure because it didn't work.
[58:13.030 --> 58:18.450]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There's no way one, and one person couldn't have done all of that in that amount of time.
[58:20.850 --> 58:28.250]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So this was his painting a year, I guess, almost to the date.
[58:29.090 --> 58:42.210]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And this is, again, the attributes with Odinist ideology is, you know, the tree, the universal tree where he gets his knowledge and they have the runes underneath it.
[58:43.150 --> 58:49.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But typically, and it is on a tarot card, but they're not doing it because it's tarot, they're doing it because it's Odin.
[58:50.130 --> 58:56.410]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the leg is usually positioned the other way, but this matches her positioning.
[58:57.550 --> 59:04.590]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's kind of a, you know, nobody knows about, supposedly knows about the crime scene at this point.
[59:06.090 --> 59:17.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the knives, I mean, when you see the altars, he had altars with all of the, you know, typical things you would have in Odinism, but he was doing blood rituals.
[59:17.950 --> 59:22.790]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: He was, you know, adding his blood to things.
[59:22.890 --> 59:25.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: He was talking about, he was thinking magically.
[59:25.830 --> 59:30.750]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I think at one point he said, oh, I was having a bad day, but I decided to do this ritual to make it better.
[59:31.190 --> 59:35.170]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That's somebody who's become a true believer.
[59:36.030 --> 59:43.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And, you know, it just starts to escalate.
[59:44.050 --> 59:58.670]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Now, I think it's really important also to understand that the Odinism they were practicing is not the same type of, they were practicing a racist variant of Odinism.
[59:59.370 --> 01:00:12.730]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Because all the third party people, they had previously been in a white supremacist gang.
[01:00:13.370 --> 01:00:19.810]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So I think it's kind of a shame that it was called a cult.
[01:00:19.970 --> 01:00:37.150]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I think that kind of confused and sort of threw everything off because they had splintered from a gang, which already was extremely violent and familiar with murder and criminal activities.
[01:00:37.890 --> 01:00:42.830]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And what they do, and this happens with other things, they add an ideology to it.
[01:00:42.950 --> 01:00:47.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It like layers it on top because that's a way to justify what you're doing.
[01:00:48.730 --> 01:00:56.650]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Like the cartels, like I said, they started, they start doing it maybe as like a joke, but then they start believing it, like it's working.
[01:00:58.230 --> 01:01:05.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's very different than let's say the people who practice heathen or Nordic, you know, they're peaceful.
[01:01:06.230 --> 01:01:16.270]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I should have probably said that earlier because I don't want them thinking that everybody who practices that is bad, but they really were a gang.
[01:01:16.530 --> 01:01:26.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, that splintered from a skinhead, originally a terrible skinhead gang that was the Vinlanders social club.
[01:01:26.170 --> 01:01:29.330]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There was a lot of activity in Indiana at that time.
[01:01:30.210 --> 01:01:36.310]  [ALLIE]: Had you looked into the Odin Brotherhood, Vinlanders specifically, the local group?
[01:01:36.850 --> 01:01:38.390]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The Vinlanders social club.
[01:01:38.870 --> 01:01:46.710]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I just, not a deep dive, but it was popular at that time.
[01:01:46.710 --> 01:01:54.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, the racist Odinism really started with a person called David Lane.
[01:01:54.430 --> 01:02:13.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And he was, back in the eighties, they were doing a group that murdered a Jewish talk show host and he was in prison in 95 is when he started doing the Odinist ideology.
[01:02:13.770 --> 01:02:15.470]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So it really started as a prison gang.
[01:02:16.090 --> 01:02:25.970]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then it became popular because they basically didn't want, there was, believe it or not, there was a couple of different white supremacy religions.
[01:02:26.410 --> 01:02:40.270]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The big one at the time was Christian identity, which was not normal Christianity, but they didn't like the idea that Judeo-Christian influence the white supremacy.
[01:02:40.470 --> 01:02:44.630]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So they wanted to go back to their original roots, Nordic roots.
[01:02:46.050 --> 01:02:53.690]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And Hitler, during the third Reich, they sort of revived this, they were going back to that.
[01:02:54.430 --> 01:03:02.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So essentially the third party people were really kind of a criminal organization.
[01:03:03.850 --> 01:03:05.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That is their background.
[01:03:06.270 --> 01:03:16.990]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And even though things were done ritually and they believe it, I think, it probably is connected to drug trafficking and other criminal activities.
[01:03:17.890 --> 01:03:19.730]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The cartels do it too.
[01:03:19.810 --> 01:03:28.810]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They have horrible ritual murders and they're doing it as part of, to protect their drug trafficking.
[01:03:29.410 --> 01:03:52.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So if that had all been explained to the jury and they never heard the word cult and could see the connections, and I could just explain that different gangs eventually adopt ideologies and then they start doing ritual practices that they think protects them from the police.
[01:03:53.850 --> 01:04:03.250]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That would have made more sense, especially when they have initiation rites that murdering people and then they have other rituals.
[01:04:03.870 --> 01:04:17.230]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, the cartels that do drug trafficking also, like I said, they'll have, they'll behead someone, put the head on an altar next to their narco saint next to, I mean, they do horrendous stuff.
[01:04:17.430 --> 01:04:21.810]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So it's just, most people don't think that's going to happen in a small town.
[01:04:22.350 --> 01:04:22.490]  [ALLIE]: Right.
[01:04:22.930 --> 01:04:31.570]  [ALLIE]: And this marking, I tried to zoom in on it, and blood at the root of the painting, the tree painting, does that have specific meaning to you?
[01:04:32.170 --> 01:04:38.450]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, it's a rune because Odin, when he was hanging, he discovered the runes.
[01:04:39.670 --> 01:04:52.930]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then, and everybody, you know, was calling the Fehu rune, it was the F tree, which was kind of, you know, I don't want to say funny, but I did agree with Major Cicero that it was more like an upside down L.
[01:04:53.370 --> 01:05:00.050]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But that's a rune too, that's Laguz, which made more sense because near water and involves protection.
[01:05:01.270 --> 01:05:06.910]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But the important thing is that it was an intentional mark.
[01:05:07.430 --> 01:05:12.230]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's not just a mark, it becomes a sigil.
[01:05:12.750 --> 01:05:23.350]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: When you're doing something in blood, even if you're doing, you know, we're going to be blood brothers kind of thing, it's no longer like dipping your hand in paint and doing something.
[01:05:23.670 --> 01:05:31.930]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's giving it efficacy because blood is the highest form of any kind of ritual.
[01:05:32.170 --> 01:05:37.950]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they knew, it's not like they didn't know this, they were writing about it, they were familiar with this.
[01:05:38.470 --> 01:05:42.710]  [ALLIE]: And that's why, like, for example, the sticks getting placed into the blood is so important.
[01:05:43.150 --> 01:05:44.530]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yes, yes.
[01:05:44.910 --> 01:06:05.130]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the fact that, let's say you go with the state's theory, and he quickly tossed this to cover the bodies, there were all these leaves there, you could have completely covered the bodies with the leaves, would have been a lot quicker than dragging a tree and positioning them this way.
[01:06:05.590 --> 01:06:07.290]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They do, they're not random.
[01:06:08.710 --> 01:06:15.090]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And at least it had meaning to who was doing it.
[01:06:16.070 --> 01:06:25.330]  [ALLIE]: To you, when you look at the scene, does it look to you like the girls were unalived in the place where they were found?
[01:06:29.500 --> 01:06:30.160]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Do it.
[01:06:30.240 --> 01:06:39.540]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I do think there's a secondary crime scene somewhere, especially with Libby.
[01:06:39.540 --> 01:06:46.580]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, there, I don't think this is the, that doesn't really add up either.
[01:06:46.900 --> 01:06:55.420]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: How she was dressed in Libby's clothes, and there's no blood anywhere.
[01:06:56.580 --> 01:07:00.520]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the timeline doesn't make sense.
[01:07:00.560 --> 01:07:04.620]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then some of the clothes are in the water, but their clothes aren't wet.
[01:07:04.620 --> 01:07:12.880]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, so I really do believe there's at least one, if not another second, there's more crime scenes.
[01:07:14.700 --> 01:07:32.620]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's, uh, yeah, it's, it's the timing of this is, is, uh, there's no way one person, his size could have done all of those things in that amount of time.
[01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:41.080]  [BOB]: And I was going to ask you that in terms of the lack of, of Abby's blood, I mean, what do you make of that?
[01:07:42.840 --> 01:07:52.300]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Well, she could have been, it could have, she could have been killed somewhere else and, and brought there.
[01:07:52.940 --> 01:07:55.980]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, or they could have collected it.
[01:07:56.040 --> 01:07:59.740]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, they do a lot of things with blood.
[01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:06.520]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, and I don't, I know it was warm that day, but I don't think it could have that much could have seeped in to the ground.
[01:08:07.220 --> 01:08:13.660]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, and that is another real identifier of ritualistic crimes.
[01:08:13.860 --> 01:08:16.240]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There's never enough blood there.
[01:08:16.300 --> 01:08:25.240]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's just like they, they do things with it, or in this case, um, there may be another crime scene.
[01:08:25.900 --> 01:08:30.560]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, it, it, it doesn't really make sense.
[01:08:31.540 --> 01:08:32.260]  [ALLIE]: Yeah.
[01:08:32.260 --> 01:08:44.740]  [ALLIE]: Like those ceremonial knives, are those ceremonial knives, um, typically, um, hand forged or can they be, or how often do you see that?
[01:08:45.220 --> 01:08:54.340]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They sell very ornate ones that are made by other people, but he was making his own and, and displaying them on the altar.
[01:08:54.880 --> 01:09:02.380]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I'm thinking that when I see that like bells are going off in my head, like I'm going, why didn't you test that?
[01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:21.660]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You know, like this is the person who actually had a connection to one of the victims and has these knives and she's got five different unusual, you know, usually when somebody's cut like that, it's a left-handed person from one side or right.
[01:09:21.720 --> 01:09:23.060]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And this is both sides.
[01:09:23.160 --> 01:09:25.680]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It doesn't seem to be one person.
[01:09:25.940 --> 01:09:29.240]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I really don't believe this was one person.
[01:09:30.080 --> 01:09:33.600]  [ALLIE]: I never thought it was one person.
[01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:44.420]  [BOB]: It's just, and as far as knives go, especially when you're talking about ceremonial knives, is it highly unusual to find those at the crime scene?
[01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:59.300]  [BOB]: Number one, obviously, because people don't leave, typically criminals try not to leave the weapon that they used, but in specifically in kind of a ritualistic type thing where it is a handcrafted knife, would it be unusual to find that?
[01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:04.000]  [BOB]: And if it's not unusual, why, why is it typically not found at the scene?
[01:10:04.740 --> 01:10:13.600]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Because that would be like the way they would explain it is it's their, I don't want to say suit, it's their sacred item.
[01:10:13.740 --> 01:10:16.660]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's like the most important thing they would keep.
[01:10:17.140 --> 01:10:23.800]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they're never going to, like I said, that's how we, that's how they caught the person in Toledo.
[01:10:24.020 --> 01:10:26.220]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They do, and that, they never get rid of it.
[01:10:26.240 --> 01:10:30.040]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that was one of the questions they asked me, why wouldn't he have gotten rid of it?
[01:10:31.220 --> 01:10:44.480]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Because it's just, um, it's like their sword, you know, it's, it's a very, in this whole sort of mindset, this warrior, uh, ideology, it's their weapon.
[01:10:44.600 --> 01:10:46.300]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's their, it's their tool.
[01:10:46.860 --> 01:10:54.040]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, it means a lot to them and I really believe it's out there.
[01:10:54.380 --> 01:10:57.500]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And, um, yeah.
[01:10:58.400 --> 01:11:21.940]  [BOB]: And, and one of the things that McLeland in terms of his cross of view, he was saying that, look, you know, and of course you have to be of the mindset that Richard Allen is the culprit, you know, but he's like, oh, well, you know, we found no evidence of Richard Allen having any knowledge of Odinism or Odinistic practices,
[01:11:22.480 --> 01:11:26.100]  [BOB]: you know, nothing connecting them to runes or Norse paganism, nothing.
[01:11:26.600 --> 01:11:32.100]  [BOB]: So in light of that, um, would it be likely for him to have created that crime scene?
[01:11:32.140 --> 01:11:47.980]  [BOB]: And he was suggesting that as if he was making a point for himself, but I saw it quite the opposite way in terms of, if you're going to look at this crime scene objectively and with intellectual honesty and kind of look at it and say, well, it's very strange looking.
[01:11:48.060 --> 01:11:49.760]  [BOB]: It's not, it's not usual.
[01:11:50.180 --> 01:11:57.700]  [BOB]: And, and to me, the fact that they didn't find anything connecting Allen to any of that type of, uh, ideology.
[01:11:58.680 --> 01:12:01.880]  [BOB]: I mean, what would your response have been at trial?
[01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:04.560]  [BOB]: Had you been able, if he would have asked you that same question.
[01:12:05.720 --> 01:12:22.560]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I, now there are people who do unusual types of things and they have something going on in their mind, either they're, you know, copycatting a film or they're, you know, um, following some kind of thing.
[01:12:23.500 --> 01:12:30.760]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I would have just said there's, they had to have something and he didn't have any of that.
[01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:32.800]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, they're just, um,
[01:12:37.560 --> 01:12:39.720]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I'm trying to think how to answer that question.
[01:12:40.220 --> 01:12:48.360]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's just, uh, he, with what was done, you don't start out doing that at his age.
[01:12:48.620 --> 01:12:54.620]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There would have been some kind of history of, I guess they tried to say he had sexual intentions.
[01:12:55.400 --> 01:12:56.900]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There would have been a history of that.
[01:12:57.160 --> 01:12:58.780]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That would have been all over his computer.
[01:12:59.160 --> 01:13:02.240]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There would have been allegations from before.
[01:13:03.620 --> 01:13:06.340]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: He wouldn't have bothered to do all of this.
[01:13:06.440 --> 01:13:12.740]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, if that was really the motivation, um, he wouldn't have been positioning them.
[01:13:12.920 --> 01:13:22.360]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So he, he, his intention was to have sex, but he doesn't have that, but has time to do all this positioning and redressing.
[01:13:22.680 --> 01:13:25.920]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's, it's very inconsistent.
[01:13:26.420 --> 01:13:30.020]  [ALLIE]: That was a big thing for Bob and I, for both, for both theories.
[01:13:30.200 --> 01:13:34.900]  [ALLIE]: One, if this was sexually motivated, he had an attraction towards children.
[01:13:35.120 --> 01:13:42.420]  [ALLIE]: It would be next to impossible to not have that kind of pornography or something like that on one of your devices.
[01:13:42.760 --> 01:13:55.740]  [ALLIE]: And the same rang true for the scene, because if someone's trying to make the scene look, have these odinistic underlays, if you don't have a background in that, you need to research it somewhere.
[01:13:56.040 --> 01:14:07.140]  [ALLIE]: And there's no, there's no searching for anything, um, that would fall into like an odinistic type of, uh, field at all.
[01:14:07.300 --> 01:14:17.520]  [ALLIE]: Nothing about knives or blood or, you know, anything showing he's got these sort of odd thoughts when it comes to blood or when it comes to symbols or, you know, nothing like that.
[01:14:17.600 --> 01:14:19.580]  [ALLIE]: So I, I, I appreciate it.
[01:14:19.580 --> 01:14:22.440]  [BOB]: You can't mimic something that you don't know exists.
[01:14:23.180 --> 01:14:24.440]  [BOB]: Oh, individually.
[01:14:24.680 --> 01:14:32.240]  [BOB]: I could never mimic this crime scene because prior to this case, I never heard of any of this, you know what I mean?
[01:14:32.260 --> 01:14:34.400]  [BOB]: So there would have been no way for me to mimic it.
[01:14:34.660 --> 01:14:46.660]  [BOB]: And I think that Richard Allen, if we're to believe that, you know, the lack of anything on any of his devices that they took and they took a lot would indicate that he had no knowledge of any of this.
[01:14:46.780 --> 01:14:48.040]  [BOB]: How would he know to do it?
[01:14:48.300 --> 01:14:48.960]  [BOB]: You know what I mean?
[01:14:48.980 --> 01:14:50.700]  [BOB]: You can't know what you don't know.
[01:14:51.180 --> 01:14:51.580]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Exactly.
[01:14:51.800 --> 01:14:57.440]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And that's why they had to emphasize that it was a counter forensic measure to hide the bodies.
[01:14:57.580 --> 01:15:13.160]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That's, but the scene that makes no sense, but that's what, you know, he was in such a hurry when he saw the van that he was going to cover them with branches and somehow you couldn't see them from across the creek, even though all the leaves are off the trees.
[01:15:14.700 --> 01:15:26.820]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And if you're going to real counter forensic measures that are done, they'll, they'll bury the body or they'll chop it up.
[01:15:26.920 --> 01:15:39.060]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And, you know, they, they don't pose with these sticks and, and there's a, everything about him is inconsistent with him doing this.
[01:15:39.320 --> 01:15:53.040]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, another thing that's kind of interesting with the people who do these types of, of magical ideologies, the cartels, the gangs, they're, they don't show remorse.
[01:15:53.300 --> 01:15:59.280]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They like, if they're caught, they don't like confess, like, I'm sorry.
[01:15:59.620 --> 01:16:03.220]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They'll say, I did it in your face kind of thing.
[01:16:03.260 --> 01:16:08.360]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Like that it's a very different way and only if they've gotten caught.
[01:16:08.480 --> 01:16:20.840]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So they don't show remorse that that whole thing with the confessions is so inconsistent with everybody who does these ritualistic crimes, because they're very arrogant.
[01:16:21.100 --> 01:16:25.040]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, they, they will eventually, they will admit it, but they're happy.
[01:16:25.220 --> 01:16:26.320]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're, they're proud of it.
[01:16:26.840 --> 01:16:27.840]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're not saying they're sorry.
[01:16:27.920 --> 01:16:28.860]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're proud of it.
[01:16:29.320 --> 01:16:50.320]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So that's a very inconsistent kind of situation also, which, but when you go to all of the there's been so many studies on, on what was done to him, Robert Lifton was sort of the expert on he did studies on prisoners of war and how you can get them to say anything.
[01:16:51.140 --> 01:16:54.340]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But that's inconsistent with it.
[01:16:55.240 --> 01:17:11.260]  [BOB]: And I wanted to ask you, so when, when the Franks memo dropped initially, the first, the first thing I started seeing and hearing online and on YouTube lives was that in the history of America, there's never been a ritualistic killing.
[01:17:12.120 --> 01:17:15.340]  [BOB]: Can you, can you give us the straight dope on that?
[01:17:15.980 --> 01:17:18.400]  [ALLIE]: And about any in Indiana, if you're aware?
[01:17:19.720 --> 01:17:28.640]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: This, I have, I have gone through this my whole career and it was really difficult early on.
[01:17:29.880 --> 01:17:32.940]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Now, at least people are starting to believe these things happen.
[01:17:33.700 --> 01:17:41.260]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And again, it goes back to different methodologies.
[01:17:42.580 --> 01:17:55.480]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: According to the FBI's manual on homicides, nothing is ever going to be a satanic or a ritual killing.
[01:17:55.940 --> 01:18:01.860]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's always going because to them, it's never the primary motive.
[01:18:02.880 --> 01:18:23.100]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So they're looking at it, that the person has some kind of psychopathology, like they're either, you know, personality disorder, everything comes down to some kind of psychopathology because that's how we look at things from that perspective.
[01:18:23.640 --> 01:18:45.360]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: When you're looking at it from, I use a symbolic anthropological, basically I do an anthropology methodology where it's what that, like you're observing a culture, what the offender believes is how I analyze it.
[01:18:45.620 --> 01:18:57.620]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So if somebody's telling me that they murdered this person as part of this type of ritual, and they're a practicing whatever, I'm not going to say they're crazy.
[01:18:58.340 --> 01:19:06.640]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They're rationally, they are doing it, let's say, as part of an initiation rite.
[01:19:06.940 --> 01:19:08.740]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That doesn't mean they're a psychopath.
[01:19:09.560 --> 01:19:16.200]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That means they're adopted an ideology that happens to be violent and they're practicing it.
[01:19:16.620 --> 01:19:24.260]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So I guess to answer your question, there have been all kinds of ritual murders, but they're never designated that.
[01:19:24.760 --> 01:19:41.400]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The first one that was actually acknowledged, and I wrote an introduction to a book on this, was a case in London where a little boy was pulled out of the Thames River and had, you know, been dismembered and he had been trafficked.
[01:19:41.640 --> 01:19:49.280]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And he absolutely was a ritual murder because he had his last meal, they had fed him like a potion things.
[01:19:50.040 --> 01:19:53.940]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they finally admitted then that that was a ritual murder.
[01:19:54.180 --> 01:20:01.920]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They had to go back and reopen all kinds of cases because nobody thought of things that way.
[01:20:02.460 --> 01:20:06.080]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So they're happening, but they're called different things.
[01:20:06.220 --> 01:20:07.600]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Everybody's a serial killer.
[01:20:08.340 --> 01:20:09.720]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Everybody's a serial killer.
[01:20:10.140 --> 01:20:17.760]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they do have their own types of rituals, but they don't believe that it's ever done in the name of.
[01:20:17.900 --> 01:20:31.560]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I've worked on cases, I've testified in LA several times, very high profile cases, where, you know, a 17-year-old Satanist ritually killed his mother on a particular date.
[01:20:31.920 --> 01:20:35.760]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: He was a practicing Satanist, did horrible, horrible things.
[01:20:36.800 --> 01:20:39.640]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And he acknowledged that.
[01:20:39.960 --> 01:20:52.780]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, in all of these cases, they acknowledge it, but somehow it's never acknowledged by the people who write, you know, it's just literally a methodological difference.
[01:20:53.320 --> 01:20:56.420]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Behavioral analysts look at the psychology of it.
[01:20:57.400 --> 01:21:03.000]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And anthropologists look at it from the perspective of the culture.
[01:21:04.920 --> 01:21:25.400]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So in terms of like human trafficking and child brides, when you go to places like Afghanistan, all this, but when they came here after we left, and they were going to military bases, you would have a 50-year-old man present with his 14-year-old wife and his 12-year-old other wife.
[01:21:25.840 --> 01:21:28.020]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the people at the bases were like, we don't know what to do.
[01:21:28.240 --> 01:21:31.640]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Because in their culture, they were allowed to do that.
[01:21:31.860 --> 01:21:34.240]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So of course, it's not allowed here.
[01:21:34.520 --> 01:21:38.640]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But my point being, you have to look at things from their perspective.
[01:21:39.160 --> 01:21:43.720]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And don't always think somebody is a mental patient when they're absolutely not.
[01:21:43.800 --> 01:21:49.140]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They just are doing things in the way they believe it.
[01:21:49.480 --> 01:21:49.640]  [BOB]: Yeah.
[01:21:49.720 --> 01:21:53.940]  [BOB]: And I would argue that Lori Vallow falls very neatly in that category.
[01:21:54.140 --> 01:22:04.720]  [BOB]: I mean, if you look at what she did to her own children, in terms of them not being human anymore, they were merely vessels that were holding these demons and...
[01:22:04.720 --> 01:22:05.660]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Or exorcism.
[01:22:06.120 --> 01:22:06.340]  [BOB]: Yeah.
[01:22:06.760 --> 01:22:14.860]  [BOB]: And the way that the bodies were found and what they had done to the bodies as well, it has all the earmarks of everything that you're talking about.
[01:22:15.420 --> 01:22:20.260]  [BOB]: What about, and Elliot asks, are you aware of any of these occurring in Indiana?
[01:22:24.140 --> 01:22:28.900]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: No, I haven't had cases in Indiana.
[01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:31.260]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I just don't research it that way.
[01:22:31.380 --> 01:22:35.480]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, there's so many... I just never look to research it that way.
[01:22:35.640 --> 01:22:36.260]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There have been...
[01:22:37.700 --> 01:22:48.000]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And by the way, that case, and I haven't really even followed that case, but that's a classic example of a cult because it's splintered off of a religion.
[01:22:48.000 --> 01:22:55.100]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The Mormon tradition splintered off, and that's really more what a cult does.
[01:22:55.300 --> 01:22:58.660]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And then they just go off of the rails and make up their own things.
[01:22:59.660 --> 01:23:15.980]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But I do know that there was a lot of the white supremacist activity on a lot of the Odinist gangs, that they were active in Indiana at that time.
[01:23:15.980 --> 01:23:20.980]  [ALLIE]: And did you work on some of those types of cases with Indiana law enforcement?
[01:23:21.160 --> 01:23:26.000]  [ALLIE]: And was that like FBI, local law enforcement, Illinois State Police?
[01:23:27.740 --> 01:23:27.960]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: No.
[01:23:28.520 --> 01:23:35.080]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, I did have... going back, you have to understand there's been hundreds of cases.
[01:23:35.440 --> 01:23:40.660]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I know there was the... that might've been Illinois, the World Church of the Creator.
[01:23:41.380 --> 01:23:48.680]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Matt, he was out of, I think, Illinois, but he wasn't doing the ritual killings, although he started at a church.
[01:23:50.200 --> 01:24:01.700]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But there is a case that happened in 2020 in another state that isn't... it's open, so I can't really talk too much about it.
[01:24:01.820 --> 01:24:07.600]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But it was very, very similar to this crime scene, and the same types of symbols, same types of things.
[01:24:09.960 --> 01:24:22.260]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And there's other cases... I'm just in a sort of a bad situation because I usually work with prosecutors, and a lot of these cases aren't closed.
[01:24:22.740 --> 01:24:29.520]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So that have similar things going on.
[01:24:30.380 --> 01:24:31.780]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: People don't stop.
[01:24:32.020 --> 01:24:35.640]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You don't just do one and you're done.
[01:24:37.540 --> 01:24:44.700]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And especially if you got away with it, then you're just going to keep doing your rituals, because then you're going to become more of a true believer.
[01:24:46.700 --> 01:25:03.280]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And like I said, I think this, the most important thing is that they splintered from a really bad gang, white supremacy gang, and that's... and it's where they splinter from.
[01:25:03.760 --> 01:25:09.260]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So with that other case you're talking about, that splintered from a religion and went in that direction into exorcism.
[01:25:09.640 --> 01:25:18.940]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: This splintered from the white supremacy gang, so they're going to adopt the Odinist mythology and everything, because it fits in.
[01:25:19.200 --> 01:25:26.180]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But they're really doing it... all of them are doing it because when you ritualize the crime, you're justifying it.
[01:25:26.720 --> 01:25:30.100]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Then you're not just a murderer, then you're doing it in the name of.
[01:25:30.100 --> 01:25:38.880]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's giving you the belief that you're... it's that magical thinking again, your cause and effect.
[01:25:39.480 --> 01:25:48.000]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The interesting thing about this case, there was a real lack of... into the victimology.
[01:25:48.280 --> 01:25:57.360]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Normally the victimology is a huge part, but because they were two young girls and they were local, it was like the third rail.
[01:25:57.760 --> 01:25:59.460]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You weren't allowed to talk about it.
[01:25:59.980 --> 01:26:23.040]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But that what should have been investigated, because it was like a white supremacist gang, anybody who was associated with this case at all, either the victims, families, anybody working on the case that had any connection to drug trafficking or violence,
[01:26:23.300 --> 01:26:32.700]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: that would have been another way to sort of bring it into the normal range.
[01:26:33.000 --> 01:26:37.660]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Because once you go off on the words like cult, it just doesn't make sense.
[01:26:37.740 --> 01:26:41.960]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I have the same problem on like cases with when they do it in the name of Satan.
[01:26:42.120 --> 01:26:49.400]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I always tell the prosecutor, don't use the S word, because once you say Satanism, people have all kinds of horrible connotations.
[01:26:49.900 --> 01:26:51.120]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They start thinking...
[01:26:51.870 --> 01:27:09.200]  [ALLIE]: So you're basically saying they could have been targeted for any number of other reasons, but the actors, the perpetrators, the scene, the things they left behind, the markings, the symbolisms represent something important to them.
[01:27:09.840 --> 01:27:10.300]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yes.
[01:27:10.540 --> 01:27:14.180]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And again, it's a matter of elimination.
[01:27:15.240 --> 01:27:24.360]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So if I'm seeing pentagrams and they're carved in the body and the person's been tortured, that is classic sort of Satanism.
[01:27:24.400 --> 01:27:30.340]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: If I see somebody being burnt or drowned, that's purification, that's an exorcism of some kind.
[01:27:31.420 --> 01:27:45.820]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: If you, in this case, it was no signs of the torture and the symbolism was more consistent with the Odinism.
[01:27:46.240 --> 01:27:53.020]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, it certainly doesn't have any of the other things going on.
[01:27:53.020 --> 01:28:02.240]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And when you have a person who's connected and you have all of them talking about it, and it's such a small area, they all know each other.
[01:28:02.420 --> 01:28:10.720]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Even where they were found, that person, I guess a couple of weeks ago, they were saying he was involved.
[01:28:12.720 --> 01:28:15.420]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Nothing's mutually exclusive in these small towns.
[01:28:16.180 --> 01:28:24.160]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: They know each other, especially if they're part of that particular ideology.
[01:28:25.020 --> 01:28:36.760]  [ALLIE]: And when you look at everything that you've seen as far as the photographs or the discovery, does it seem to you that one of the two girls was the so-called target?
[01:28:39.140 --> 01:28:43.220]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: That's hard to tell because again, we weren't allowed to do too much with the victimology.
[01:28:44.140 --> 01:28:50.740]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I really, you know, that's a big piece to be missing when you're analyzing things.
[01:28:52.020 --> 01:28:58.240]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So I just didn't have any information on that.
[01:28:58.320 --> 01:28:59.940]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It wasn't given to me to review.
[01:29:03.540 --> 01:29:19.540]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But from the scene, obviously it looks like Libby, the fact that she's posed that way and naked, was treated differently than Abby.
[01:29:19.740 --> 01:29:35.640]  [ALLIE]: I thought that maybe she was treated, I was looking at it like Abby was treated differently because to me it looked like there was some sign that she had been either cleaned or the, you know, like the lack of blood and the way her hands were placed.
[01:29:35.780 --> 01:29:57.780]  [ALLIE]: But I guess like you said, if this turns into something that ultimately you or an expert can look at for hopefully a retrial, then you'll have to be able to be given access to more information so that you can really flesh out your opinion, which you didn't get to do here because you didn't get past the preliminary stage of getting your foot in the door with the judge.
[01:29:58.920 --> 01:29:59.200]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yeah.
[01:29:59.540 --> 01:30:05.580]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And the, you know, there are aspects with Abby that is a little bit of an undoing.
[01:30:05.600 --> 01:30:15.140]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: The fact that she was redressed, that would be consistent with that BAU report that, you know, somebody felt bad.
[01:30:15.940 --> 01:30:26.540]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But that also would confirm, again, if she was dating the son of one of these people, that that would make sense.
[01:30:28.260 --> 01:30:33.920]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: There was kind of an, I have to tell you, there was something interesting in the process.
[01:30:35.500 --> 01:30:39.660]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: When I testified, it was at the pre-trial hearing, so there was no jury.
[01:30:41.020 --> 01:30:47.580]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And when I went in the courtroom, I had never had this happen before, that the witness chair was really high.
[01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:51.160]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Like, normally it's lower than where the judge is.
[01:30:51.540 --> 01:30:56.420]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So I literally was eye to eye with the judge.
[01:30:56.840 --> 01:31:01.400]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it was fascinating because, you know, when you're not talking, when you're talking to a jury, you look at them.
[01:31:01.400 --> 01:31:03.000]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And when you're talking to the judge, you look at her.
[01:31:03.860 --> 01:31:07.120]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it was like, we were eye to eye.
[01:31:07.240 --> 01:31:12.360]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I thought that was so fascinating, because I'm thinking everybody should have to look the judge in the eye when you're talking.
[01:31:12.940 --> 01:31:17.140]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, she must know I'm telling, you know, I'm not lying.
[01:31:17.280 --> 01:31:18.380]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You know, this is the truth.
[01:31:18.500 --> 01:31:22.080]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It just was such an unusual setup that way.
[01:31:22.280 --> 01:31:22.280]  Right.
[01:31:22.380 --> 01:31:26.180]  [ALLIE]: The judge should have the ability to observe the demeanor of the witness.
[01:31:26.200 --> 01:31:28.220]  [ALLIE]: It's one of the most important things.
[01:31:28.300 --> 01:31:42.760]  [ALLIE]: That's one of the reasons why the appellate court says they give so much, they put so much weight on the judge's credibility determinations, because the judge had the ability to observe things like facial features, eyes.
[01:31:43.080 --> 01:31:48.320]  [ALLIE]: And you're saying that with the way that setup was, it was difficult for the judge to be able to actually do that.
[01:31:49.080 --> 01:31:49.900]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yeah, it was interesting.
[01:31:50.060 --> 01:31:51.980]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I also think that the whole...
[01:31:54.140 --> 01:32:09.220]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: everybody was sort of... the Heisenberg effect was just... had taken over this whole case, which is the uncertainty principle, when it's applied to this, when people are being watched, their behavior changes.
[01:32:09.460 --> 01:32:13.580]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And I had that feeling, especially with the judge, like, she was really affected by that.
[01:32:13.920 --> 01:32:22.660]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And there was so much going on that it was really, you know, the whole thing had gotten out of control.
[01:32:23.020 --> 01:32:38.720]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, the level of attention, and the fact that she didn't want it to be filmed, you know, when they had the cameras right there, I think was just... she was uncomfortable.
[01:32:39.460 --> 01:32:49.420]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It changes... when you have this much attention, that is that Heisenberg effect, where everything... nobody behaves the same way.
[01:32:49.880 --> 01:32:58.040]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And they might have just gotten so dug in, that they didn't want to lose... they wanted to save face, or, you know, just... it was...
[01:32:58.560 --> 01:33:01.620]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: it was kind of... it's really sad how this happened.
[01:33:01.980 --> 01:33:07.480]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I mean, I really believe that Richard Allen is innocent.
[01:33:08.120 --> 01:33:12.480]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And this is somebody that always works for prosecutors.
[01:33:13.160 --> 01:33:21.040]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's just, you know... 
                                 [BOB]: Which gives your opinion a lot of weight, you know, that fact.
[01:33:21.540 --> 01:33:25.840]  [ALLIE]: Yeah, when Bob and I are looking for experts, we definitely try to find, you know, former law enforcement.
[01:33:26.420 --> 01:33:31.160]  [ALLIE]: And at least... I mean, the more that they do work for the prosecution, the more we want them.
[01:33:31.660 --> 01:33:32.000]  [BOB]: Yeah.
[01:33:32.620 --> 01:33:37.020]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's hard to do, because, you know, especially with gang stuff, they don't...
[01:33:38.040 --> 01:33:40.320]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I bet... police don't like when you do that.
[01:33:40.380 --> 01:33:45.280]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: But in this case, there were police that were also testifying for the defense.
[01:33:45.620 --> 01:33:45.840]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Yeah.
[01:33:46.600 --> 01:33:49.900]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Because it's just... it is what it is.
[01:33:51.780 --> 01:34:02.600]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it's... I think what will happen is that maybe it might not be the appeal, but I think there will be another case.
[01:34:03.840 --> 01:34:07.040]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And it'll be a real confession.
[01:34:07.360 --> 01:34:14.680]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Not, you know, not the torture type of confession, but we'll find out that way.
[01:34:15.820 --> 01:34:33.940]  [BOB]: Haldol induced psychotic confessions that, you know, took place after six months of being completely stripped away from his wife, like in terms of physically seeing her, you know, everything about the case has been incredibly disturbing.
[01:34:34.060 --> 01:34:44.380]  [BOB]: I mean, the fact that there's so many people in the public sphere that question this conviction, you just don't see it in cases where there's convictions.
[01:34:44.560 --> 01:34:56.000]  [BOB]: I can't remember any case ever wherein there was a conviction that has been this hotly contested months and months after the case is over.
[01:34:56.000 --> 01:34:58.860]  [BOB]: You know, I mean, that should tell you something.
[01:34:59.720 --> 01:35:02.400]  [BOB]: To me, and this wasn't a case that was streamed.
[01:35:03.320 --> 01:35:10.760]  [BOB]: You know, imagine had this case been streamed and everybody had been privy to what had gone on or didn't go on in that courtroom.
[01:35:11.840 --> 01:35:20.080]  [BOB]: I mean, imagine if this was getting the publicity that the Karen Reed case is getting, you know, moving through the entire process.
[01:35:20.240 --> 01:35:22.200]  [BOB]: It would have been unbelievable.
[01:35:22.200 --> 01:35:25.460]  [BOB]: So, you've been amazing.
[01:35:25.920 --> 01:35:29.340]  [BOB]: You're just such a, you're an absolute like fountain of information.
[01:35:29.640 --> 01:35:36.080]  [BOB]: I'm so thankful that you reached out to me when Murph called me and he's like, Hey, you know who wants to be on your show?
[01:35:36.180 --> 01:35:37.200]  [BOB]: He's like Don Perlmutter.
[01:35:37.380 --> 01:35:39.020]  [BOB]: I was like, I'm all about it.
[01:35:39.780 --> 01:35:41.500]  [BOB]: Like Murph knows I love him.
[01:35:41.980 --> 01:35:50.380]  [ALLIE]: I hope you saw, I tried to put up a lot of the comments of people saying how thankful they are for your work and how thrilled they were to learn from you.
[01:35:52.360 --> 01:35:54.460]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I can't do all that at the same time.
[01:35:56.360 --> 01:35:58.100]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I don't know how you do what you do.
[01:35:58.200 --> 01:36:02.040]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's amazing the work you put in and that you're able to do all of that.
[01:36:02.200 --> 01:36:06.160]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's really, I really respect so much what your podcasters are able to do.
[01:36:06.300 --> 01:36:09.560]  [BOB]: I mean, but a lot of people just think they're wonderful as you are.
[01:36:09.660 --> 01:36:11.360]  [BOB]: You really make it a lot easier.
[01:36:11.460 --> 01:36:12.240]  [BOB]: I'll tell you that.
[01:36:12.620 --> 01:36:17.220]  [BOB]: Is there anything you'd kind of like in closing that you'd like to say to kind of wrap it?
[01:36:19.420 --> 01:36:35.980]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, just that I, you know, really hope that, um, he does, that Richard Allen at some point does get out for whatever reason, you know, whether it's the appeal or, um, some other reason.
[01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:40.920]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Cause that's, it's just so sad in so many ways to see this.
[01:36:41.220 --> 01:36:55.100]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Um, and, and I really think that if all the exhibits, including the sealed ones were out at the same time that everybody would see what was going on.
[01:36:55.360 --> 01:37:03.740]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Like I said, the, just the photo of her face, they, they have to, they're dribbling out these exhibits and I don't like the way it's being done.
[01:37:03.860 --> 01:37:07.440]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's all being done sort of to support his guilt.
[01:37:07.900 --> 01:37:10.900]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's kind of interesting that that's how they're, they're coming out.
[01:37:11.160 --> 01:37:16.400]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: It's like it's turned into a whole information warfare, like information operation.
[01:37:17.000 --> 01:37:25.960]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: So that's one of the reasons I wanted to come on because not hearing from anybody, um, on this side of it.
[01:37:26.340 --> 01:37:40.680]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: And, uh, they're, they're, I wonder if they're ever going to release any of, I had put together, I guess, 14 exhibits that, uh, really, and they wouldn't even let you see them during the pre-trial.
[01:37:40.820 --> 01:37:41.640]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Remember they were hidden.
[01:37:42.280 --> 01:37:49.480]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: I think if people just saw that and how it was put together, they would be able to understand more.
[01:37:49.660 --> 01:37:56.820]  [ALLIE]: I'll tell you when I saw the pictures of the actual bodies, because after the trial, someone did release them on social media.
[01:37:57.560 --> 01:38:00.720]  [ALLIE]: And, you know, it was like, I, I saw them very quickly.
[01:38:00.900 --> 01:38:06.620]  [ALLIE]: It was a lot more than what I see when I look at this rendering, this drawing here.
[01:38:06.620 --> 01:38:13.440]  [ALLIE]: And it was striking to me, the similarity in the placement of the sticks on the bodies.
[01:38:13.740 --> 01:38:16.120]  [ALLIE]: I was like, Oh my goodness.
[01:38:16.120 --> 01:38:33.460]  [ALLIE]: You cannot tell me that there, there is such similarity in the placement of the sticks across the neck, over the shoulder, behind the arm, you know, like so similar on both that that is just somebody haphazardly, like you've, you've made clear yourself haphazardly,
[01:38:33.480 --> 01:38:38.340]  [ALLIE]: just trying to conceal the body or starting to try to conceal and giving up.
[01:38:38.440 --> 01:38:48.120]  [ALLIE]: It's just, they are, they, they look even more identical than they do in this, in this rendering that, that we've had up.
[01:38:48.420 --> 01:38:48.840]  [BOB]: Yeah.
[01:38:48.880 --> 01:38:59.760]  [BOB]: And to your point, when Barb sent me that particular exhibit there, I think she had said she had requested 14 and all she was sent were state exhibits.
[01:39:00.700 --> 01:39:13.680]  [BOB]: So what's going on right now is, is as you very aptly noted, all that's coming out are things that they believe supports the conviction, which is not how this thing is supposed to work.
[01:39:14.140 --> 01:39:16.620]  [BOB]: It's not how public trials are supposed to work.
[01:39:17.000 --> 01:39:21.220]  [BOB]: So, well, you have a, you always have a standing invite here, doctor.
[01:39:21.960 --> 01:39:23.120]  [BOB]: We'd love to have you.
[01:39:23.220 --> 01:39:24.440]  [BOB]: You're, you're fascinating.
[01:39:24.800 --> 01:39:29.520]  [BOB]: I could have probably gone on for hours, but I figured I'd spare you on a Tuesday night.
[01:39:29.840 --> 01:39:32.620]  [BOB]: You've given us an hour and 40 minutes of your time.
[01:39:32.640 --> 01:39:35.520]  [BOB]: So graciously, we're very, very thankful to you.
[01:39:35.680 --> 01:39:38.020]  [BOB]: I thought it was a fascinating conversation.
[01:39:38.240 --> 01:39:39.180]  [BOB]: Thank you very, very much.
[01:39:39.980 --> 01:39:40.880]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You're welcome.
[01:39:41.240 --> 01:39:41.740]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: You're welcome.
[01:39:42.140 --> 01:39:42.800]  [BOB]: All right.
[01:39:42.840 --> 01:39:45.000]  [BOB]: We will we'll see you soon, I hope.
[01:39:45.760 --> 01:39:46.220]  [DR PERLMUTTER]: Okay.
[01:39:46.500 --> 01:39:46.860]  [BOB]: All right.
[01:39:46.880 --> 01:39:47.480]  [BOB]: Take care.
[01:39:47.640 --> 01:39:48.060]  [BOB]: Thank you.
[01:39:48.720 --> 01:39:49.100]  [BOB]: All right.
[01:39:49.160 --> 01:39:53.780]  [BOB]: So Dr. Pearl, Dr. Perlmutter, she's amazing.
[01:39:54.260 --> 01:40:01.820]  [BOB]: I thought she was amazing at the hearings and, you know, it was, it was frustrating because you could tell that she was knowledgeable.
[01:40:03.040 --> 01:40:09.020]  [BOB]: And, and she says she's usually testifying for the prosecution, working with, she, she trains law enforcement.
[01:40:09.200 --> 01:40:09.820]  [BOB]: That's what she does.
[01:40:10.260 --> 01:40:24.920]  [BOB]: Like she, she literally has been doing it for decades and that's what she does, you know, and it was frustrating at the hearing because you got the sense that, that everything was rushed because they had three days and they had to get it all in.
[01:40:25.100 --> 01:40:32.500]  [BOB]: And it was just like, Andy couldn't develop some of the things that I know that he wanted to develop from her because it was so critical.
[01:40:32.500 --> 01:40:40.360]  [ALLIE]: Well, it sounds like she would have done a lot deeper of a, you know, looking into, had she been allowed to actually testify.
[01:40:41.100 --> 01:40:52.700]  [ALLIE]: So that was like a preliminary, a preliminary assessment in hopes of, of the judge, you know, saying that there's enough there to allow her to even testify.
[01:40:52.700 --> 01:41:03.140]  [ALLIE]: And then, you know, you can't really waste money and resources and time on something that the judge is saying can't get in anymore.
[01:41:03.280 --> 01:41:13.580]  [ALLIE]: So there's, you know, not, not much of a reason to give her the rest of the discovery and have her do her really in-depth examination and investigation into the case.
[01:41:13.600 --> 01:41:18.100]  [ALLIE]: And it's, it's a real shame and hopefully someday that will be able to happen.
[01:41:18.620 --> 01:41:18.900]  [ALLIE]: Yeah.
 into court until after we're done with the appeal.
[01:44:57.360 --> 01:45:03.120]  [ALLIE]: Aspiring court reporter, thanks for your generosity as a mod and for your donation there.
[01:45:03.480 --> 01:45:04.460]  [ALLIE]: What a wonderful guest.
[01:45:04.740 --> 01:45:08.560]  [ALLIE]: Thank you for the insightful and infuriating discussion.