00:01 hi y'all and welcome to tonight's live
00:04 stream today was a day that pretty much
00:08 everyone has been dreading it was a
00:10 nightmare of a day for everybody from
00:13 the family members most especially to
00:17 the defendant to just everybody who was
00:19 watching we saw the appalling the
00:23 gruesome crime scene photos that showed
00:26 the very heinous crime that was
00:28 committed against Liberty J and Abigail
01:31 Williams I am up here in um I am up here
01:35 in Indiana covering the deli murders
01:38 trial the murders of the murder of two
01:42 young girls a 13-year-old Abigail
01:44 Williams 14-year-old Liberty German
01:47 right
01:48 now seven years after their murders on
01:51 February 13
01:53 2017 Richard Allen is on trial for those
01:56 murders and I am up here covering that
01:60 it is a very controversial case but
01:02 there was nothing controversial about
01:05 what happened today
01:06 universally anybody and everybody would
01:09 condemn what we saw today it was
01:12 appalling now here's what I'm going to
01:14 do I am going to describe for you what I
01:18 saw it made me incredibly angry I am not
01:22 sure that I'm mad at Richard Allen but I
01:25 am for sure mad at somebody and we had
01:29 four Witnesses take the stand all law
02:32 enforcement and they who had gone to and
02:35 processed the crime scene we talked
02:38 about items of clothing that were found
02:40 in the Stream we saw the brutal photos
02:43 of Abby and Libby dead it was a a crime
02:46 for which there really just are not
02:48 words and I'm not going to go graphic
02:51 with it so you don't have to worry about
02:52 that I am going to tell you the basics
02:54 so you can understand uh I will cover
02:58 all of that but first I want to talk
02:00 about part of the unfolding Story one of
02:03 the biggest stories of this entire case
02:06 which is the difficulty getting access
02:09 to this courtroom the difficulty making
02:11 sure that this is a public
02:13 trial now let me I forgot to check let
02:16 me make sure am I getting are people
02:19 able to see me is it looking okay let me
02:23 uh let me look up and see did I get my
02:25 thumbs up oh good good good okay so
02:27 we're good all right
03:30 so um and so I want to do a shout out to
03:34 the first five tonight in the live chat
03:37 Olivia's mum AKA Sue Shannon poon nimic
03:41 Patty Brumfield drew p Gambino and CW
03:44 welcome special shout out to the five of
03:47 you and we have a new member bernardet I
03:49 missed her membership and I'm very sorry
03:51 about that bernardet welcome and we are
03:53 delighted to have you as a member so
03:56 let's get into part of the story The
03:60 access the difficulty getting into the
03:03 trial seeing what is happening as we all
03:05 know it's not being televised that's why
03:08 I drove hundreds of miles and then
03:10 that's why I'm here outside Deli Indiana
03:13 so I can be at the trial every day this
03:16 morning I arrived at the courthouse at
03:18 4:30 a.m. and that was too late I did
03:22 not make it into the courtroom for the
03:24 morning session now don't worry I got
03:27 notes from three different people to
03:29 whom I'm very grateful I'll mention them
04:30 later and I will cover it all and I was
04:33 also there for the entire afternoon when
04:36 they showed the photographs over again
04:38 so I got to see all of that but I do
04:41 want to start with talking about that
04:43 because it is so much a critical part of
04:46 this story the question of whether or
04:49 not there is real transparency around
04:52 this trial or whether this is something
04:54 being tried with a blanket of secrecy
04:56 over it and the public is not being
04:58 granted full access so even though I
04:01 arrived at 4:3 436 it was in the morning
04:05 I was number 28 in line and only 24 are
04:09 admitted somehow one other person
04:11 dropped out so I ended up being number
04:13 27 so at that that was too late for that
04:18 initial session there was talk about how
04:20 there there's room in the bat to easily
04:22 add another row but the judges made a
04:25 decision that she will not be adding
04:27 another row in fact there was another
04:29 row during the hear earings held this
05:30 summer but that has been removed and
05:33 those chairs are I think the ones
05:34 sitting out in the circular Atrium just
05:38 outside the
05:40 courtroom so you are not if you don't
05:43 get in you aren't allowed to be on the
05:45 third floor where the trial is so here's
05:48 what happens you have to go down to the
05:49 first floor and get in line for the
05:52 afternoon session but you aren't allowed
05:53 on the third floor where the trial is
05:55 you can go up at the break but today the
05:58 jury was running a little late so the
05:60 judge didn't take a break so everyone
05:02 came out at lunch they get right back in
05:04 line when the doors open everyone on the
05:07 first floor hits the stairs running to
05:10 the third floor as fast as possible Mad
05:13 Dash to join the line of people to get
05:15 back in so that now access for the
05:18 afternoon will be available and
05:21 everybody waits an hour to see whether
05:23 they will or won't get in just in case
05:26 something goes wrong after that hourlong
05:28 wait in which there is no lunch there's
06:31 nothing to drink no food could be
06:33 brought in there's there's nothing so
06:35 that entire hour you wait again and then
06:39 fortunately I was able to make it in
06:41 that second time to see the afternoon
06:43 session and fortunately also so grateful
06:46 to get notes from some of the people who
06:48 were there we've been sharing back and
06:50 forth I got notes from both uh Lori and
06:53 lesli from hidden True Crime from Andrea
06:55 Burkhart so I'm fully covered on the
06:57 morning but I also got to see everything
06:00 in the afternoon so I can describe it to
06:02 you firsthand because they did go all
06:04 the way back through that again in fact
06:06 there was an objection about that
06:07 probably it was done at sidebar couldn't
06:09 hear it but I think they were saying
06:11 look you've already done this once this
06:13 is cumulative but the judge allowed it
06:15 to come back in through another witness
06:18 so someone tried to instill some order
06:21 to kind of make a list okay here's who
06:22 was in the order and the guard said you
06:24 can't do that the judge wants it this
06:27 way no rules and she won't won't a AG
06:30 ree to rule on anything so it's
07:33 intentional chaos is what I would
07:35 describe it as and it is creating a real
07:39 difficult system where people can't get
07:42 access so when you think about it I mean
07:45 is it even possible to cover this trial
07:48 on an everyday basis because if you
07:50 arrive at say 2 in the morning and you
07:54 get into the trial at 8 the trial goes
07:56 from 9 to 6 usually pretty close to 6
07:60 and then you have to go back you have to
07:02 prepare a live stream you have to go
07:03 live for an hour and after that you're a
07:06 little too wired to sleep so let's say
07:08 you go to sleep at 11:30 then you get up
07:10 at 12:45 so you can be prepared to make
07:13 it to the courthouse by two now is that
07:15 sustainable for a month six days a week
07:18 I'm going to suggest to you probably not
07:20 and so I don't exactly know what the
07:22 solution is here but I'm not giving up
07:25 I'm not quitting yet and I I hope I can
07:28 figure out a way that we can make it
08:30 through because clearly this is a crazy
08:33 system I don't know if it will get
08:35 easier it didn't as of today when you
08:38 can't when you arrive at 4:30 and you're
08:40 already too late wow you know just wow
08:44 so but let's get into what happened
08:46 today at trial because it was the day
08:49 that everybody has been waiting for
08:51 there is that bombshell argument by the
08:54 defense that the crime scene photographs
08:57 prove odinis committed this murder
08:60 odinist set it up as a religious
08:03 sacrifice that they placed sticks in a
08:07 fashion on top of the girls so that it
08:09 was in the form of a rune and they also
08:13 painted in blood a rune on a tree beside
08:16 the body so we finally got to see this
08:19 we finally got to see what it looks like
08:23 so let me just take you through the day
08:24 we started it was as I said for law
08:27 enforcement we started with Darren uh
08:30 Gia Cola he talked about having uh he
09:34 saw he's a detective for Carol County
09:36 and he saw on social media that the
09:38 girls were missing so he and one of the
09:41 things he did early on before they found
09:44 the bodies he tried to go into the girls
09:47 Electronics hoping he might find a
09:49 message or something between the between
09:53 say liby and her friend something like
09:55 that but the electronics were locked he
09:58 said he tried to to figure it out and
09:01 wasn't able to access it that evening so
09:04 they were trying to figure out where
09:06 could Libby and Abby have gone of course
09:09 we now know the bodies were found the
09:11 very next day on the 14th they went
09:13 missing on February 13th
09:17 2017 he also talked about something we
09:19 had not really heard about before a
09:21 disturbance leading from a downward
09:23 angle from the bridge with bare ground
09:26 exposed I may have that um let's see if
09:30 I have that map put in here I think I
10:34 might let us see oh good I think I do
10:39 okay so do you see um in little print
10:43 maybe I have a better one where you can
10:45 see it a little bit bigger I'll try that
10:48 give me just a second I will remove that
10:51 and I will try
10:52 another uh another shot to see whether
10:55 there's something else I could show you
10:56 because I'd really like you to see that
10:58 section really big let's see how we go
10:01 okay see the monan High Bridge there we
10:05 know that the girls were walking across
10:07 the monan High Bridge and by high they
10:11 are not kidding it's 60 feet above the
10:14 water and what that means is that
10:16 there's not it's not a a cliff 60 feet
10:21 and a cliff over here it's a railroad
10:23 Trestle so it had to be relatively flat
10:25 so the train could go across it had to
10:27 be really flat so the train could go
10:29 across it it it's abandoned of course
11:31 many years ago but it starts back before
11:34 the creek and it ends way into the woods
11:37 on the far side so you can't see me way
11:39 into the woods on the far side so that
11:42 it can be a flat area and it's sloped up
11:46 from that area so that monan the monan
11:50 High Bridge the girls were to at the end
11:53 of it and I I'm hopefully you can see my
11:56 arrow I'm not sure but say right about
11:58 where the word clo
11:60 is but move it um move it over to that
11:03 white line say roughly in there
11:05 somewhere is where the Monon High Bridge
11:08 actually ends and the girls were were at
11:12 the end of the bridge when we know that
11:14 Libby filmed the person that law
11:17 enforcement believes is the killer we've
11:20 only been shown four seconds of a longer
11:23 video clip the jury hasn't been shown
11:25 the full clip yet so we will wait to see
11:28 what actually occurs with that but in
12:30 this when the girls come off the monan
12:32 High Bridge U and we hear in that little
12:36 clip someone says I think they say guys
12:40 guys down the hill and it's a very steep
12:44 hill and what we learned from this
12:45 witness was there was a disturbance
12:47 leading from a downward angle from the
12:50 bridge where be ground was exposed as if
12:52 somebody slid and made their way down so
12:55 that's proof that's evidence that Libby
12:58 and Abby actually were there at the end
12:60 of the bridge and tried to go down as
12:02 someone ordered them to go down the hill
12:05 now law enforcement believes the reason
12:07 they were so eager to do that to comply
12:10 is that the person had a gun and that's
12:13 why it was so extra frightening for
12:16 them so the the uh Darren g giaola said
12:20 he got a call from detective liot that
12:23 told him this is now the 14th the day
12:25 the bodies are found saying I because
12:28 nobody found them that night on the 13th
12:30 said go to the cemetery they've been
13:33 found so he drives and
13:36 let's we'll add this back do you see the
13:40 morning height Cemetery at the top there
13:43 that's where more or less the staging
13:45 ground was you can see the bodies are
13:48 located where about where the x is based
13:51 on what I saw today I would say that
13:54 I'll probably end up moving that a
13:56 little bit lower the clothes were
13:58 actually in the cre so I don't think my
13:59 arrow is very good so move that Arrow up
13:02 a little bit and the bodies down a
13:04 little bit and that'll sort of comply
13:06 with what we saw today a little bit more
13:08 crisply so the the detective said go to
13:11 the cemetery right there morning height
13:13 cemetery and they've been found he heard
13:17 that there were clothes in the creek so
13:20 he started walking into the woods and
13:22 it's apparently very steep here from the
13:24 morning height Cemetery going downward
13:27 toward the creek some parts very steep
13:30 some parts there's a ditch Ravine that's
14:31 extremely extremely Steep and so he
14:34 found a way down he he said that uh as
14:38 he was coming down into the area near
14:41 where the bodies were he saw an
14:43 extremely distraught female coming up
14:46 out of the area that is most probably
14:48 Libby's great aunt the sister of Libby's
14:51 grandmother with whom Libby
14:53 lived now the the girls were found with
14:57 Libby unclothed and Abby fully clothed
14:02 and but they were not wearing well they
14:05 Libby wasn't wearing anything but Abby
14:07 was not wearing the clothes she had
14:09 originally had on she had on some of
14:11 Libby's clothes it was they were all
14:13 jumbled up so none of this made a lot of
14:15 sense of course they didn't know that
14:17 yet this comes out more over time there
14:20 was blood on or underneath both
14:22 according to this witness as we saw
14:25 later there was a lot less blood
14:27 underneath Libby that could be an
14:29 important point for the defense they
15:31 believe that the bodies were brought to
15:34 this area and left there they do not
15:36 believe that liby and Abby were actually
15:38 killed right here they think they were
15:41 killed somewhere else and that there's
15:42 not enough blood for the entire crime to
15:44 have happened right there however there
15:46 was a fair amount of blood so there had
15:48 to been some gushing blood right then
15:51 and there so I don't know exactly the
15:53 defense argument but with it definitely
15:55 seemed to me something happened there
15:56 based on the blood around the bodies so
15:59 aby's clothing was wet and that would
15:04 indicate part of what law enforcement's
15:06 theory is which is as you as the ax
15:10 there for the close next to and in the
15:13 creek they were really in the creek the
15:15 girls were forced they believe across
15:17 the creek they were at the South Side
15:20 about where the monan High Bridge is
15:22 below the creek and they were forced
15:24 across it up into the area and now I can
15:27 probably add this back so you can see
15:29 where the clothing is again I'd moved
16:31 that bodies thing a little bit lower
16:33 based on what I heard today and so they
16:36 were forced across the creek up toward
16:38 where the bodies
16:40 were the they were located they had
16:44 large lacerations to the neck where they
16:46 had been cut and that's how they were
16:48 murdered they were 30 to 40 yards south
16:52 of that Cemetery I showed you in the map
16:54 and you can see the creek from where
16:56 they were there were differing estimates
16:58 was it the 15 people was it sorry 10 to
16:02 15 10 to 15 feet or 20 feet from the
16:04 creek but something along that order now
16:08 there was there were a lot of questions
16:09 for each and every witness about were
16:12 you carrying a gun and if so what was
16:14 the gun the reason for that is an
16:17 unspent bullet casing was found at the
16:19 scene between the bodies of Libby and
16:22 Abby we knew that much and we know that
16:24 law enforcement believes it it's traced
16:27 that exact bullet casing unspent bullet
17:30 casing back to a it had been cycled
17:34 through a gun owned by Richard Allen
17:37 that they found in his home the defense
17:39 argues that's junk science you can't
17:42 match a an unspent bullet casing to a
17:46 machine made gun that doesn't even make
17:48 sense and also the law enforcement
17:51 believes that the that it doesn't law
17:54 enforcement ah defense believes that it
17:57 also doesn't match that the
17:60 whatever incidental things were slightly
17:02 different about the gun it doesn't match
17:05 what you see with the bullet casing so
17:08 we did learn though for everybody who
17:10 came today and who was present at the
17:13 scene none of them was carrying a 40
17:18 caliber gun at all so the point being
17:22 none of them could possibly have dropped
17:25 that unspent bullet casing at the scene
17:30 so there were they did find in the creek
18:32 this witness told us a multicolored
18:34 shirt a sorry Libby had been wearing a
18:37 tie-dyed shirt and a tennis shoe stuck
18:40 in a root inside the
18:43 creek the from a distance he was able to
18:47 see a whitish color that stood out and
18:52 that there were he talked about the
18:55 bruum um the large lacerations to the
18:58 throat is how I'll put it and there
18:60 was like and I'm since I have notes from
18:03 three people I'm trying to consolidate
18:05 them I felt like I'd done it all but
18:06 there may be a little bit left to do
18:08 they also talked about how incredibly
18:10 steep it is and I talked to some people
18:12 today who actually have been there and
18:14 they had to use all four um limbs in
18:18 order to climb up to get to where the
18:20 girls are where it's a little flattish
18:22 and the bodies were there on a flatter
18:25 area but to reach that is extremely
18:28 steep one the arguments the defense make
19:31 makes is how is that possible I mean how
19:33 does one five foot five guy Corral two
19:37 girls get them to climb up the hill
19:40 while he's climbing up behind them and
19:41 obviously can't be aiming his gun at the
19:43 exact same time and get them to do all
19:47 of these things unclo themselves change
19:49 clothes whatever all without screaming
19:52 at all because there are people around
19:54 who could have heard and they didn't and
19:56 then murder them again without them
19:59 having said anything and without them
19:01 screaming or letting out anything that
19:04 would notify people around them it's a
19:07 mystery and not yet fully explained but
19:10 they he did talk about the fact that it
19:12 was really steep that you had to you
19:14 needed your hands to descend he was
19:16 talking about coming down from the
19:18 cemetery to where they
19:22 were he um he did say too he had heard
19:26 about the cloth in the creek so he went
19:28 toward the Creek he ended up actually
20:30 passing the bodies he apparently went
20:33 pretty near them but didn't notice them
20:35 at that point went on down to the creek
20:37 then they said no go back up he turned
20:39 around and that's when he saw the
20:41 whitish shapes that he had
20:43 seen the one of the things he talked
20:46 about doing was calling other people
20:49 that was a really important point
20:51 because of the fact that there's been a
20:54 question about Libby's cell phone
20:56 Libby's cell phone went off about 5:00
20:59 didn't receive any messages then
20:01 suddenly at 4:33 turned on again and 15
20:05 messages downloaded the defense says
20:08 that's not possible unless somebody is
20:10 manually turning it on at 4:33 so the
20:14 jury has been interested in in what cell
20:18 phone service did people have now this
20:20 witness said he didn't recall whether he
20:22 had his personal or his work phone but
20:25 his personal phone used AT&T we don't
20:29 yet know I don't think anyway what Libby
21:31 used either if the jury asked a question
21:34 earlier that told us they were thinking
21:36 all right if if the her phone didn't
21:41 work and other people's phones worked
21:44 then maybe that would tell us something
21:45 if maybe maybe this is just a place for
21:48 bad sale reception for Verizon or AT&T
21:52 so we will have to wait and see exactly
21:55 what comes out from this in terms of how
21:57 many witnesses and what exactly I's
21:59 phone used but it was a really percepted
21:01 question earlier by the
21:04 jury and the jury had a question after
21:07 this witness as well wanted to to know
21:11 and oh let me go back to one point I
21:13 said that he had passed the two bodies
21:15 didn't even really notice them now that
21:17 is an important point the defense has
21:20 been trying to suggest that the bodies
21:23 would have been visible to people who
21:25 were out searching for them the night
21:27 before that people across the stream or
22:30 searching near them would have spotted
22:32 the girls if only they had actually been
22:34 there the fact that no one saw them the
22:37 defense says means they weren't even
22:39 present there and so they would like to
22:41 say that they were visible the fact that
22:44 he walked past them was an argument
22:46 against
22:48 that all right so let's see if I
22:51 finished I think I now finished that
22:53 witness and we move on to oh the jury's
22:55 question I wanted to tell you they
22:57 wanted to know what electron was it that
22:59 you were viewing on the 13th and the
22:02 answer they said was a tablet iPad
22:05 tablet of some sort but it was lot so it
22:07 didn't really matter they didn't
22:09 actually view it they had it in their
22:10 possession but they didn't view it the
22:13 next witness was Jason Page and he also
22:17 another law enforcement he was talked
22:20 about pulling out mapping roping off a
22:25 crime scene taping off there's probably
22:27 my word the size of of a football field
22:29 he said they wanted to go really big and
23:31 they could always make it smaller but
23:33 they wanted to go big to start with and
23:35 there was a talked about them even
23:38 having a dive team right there in Deer
23:40 Creek looking for evidence or anything
23:42 they could find Ground Zero where the
23:46 girls bodies were they roped off an area
23:50 30 to 40 feet in diameter so they would
23:54 get all the area around them and they
23:56 spent a substantial amount of time
23:58 searching for that now I have a ton of
23:01 people to thank so let me thank Melissa
23:03 Hicks d uh Danielle Ortega and Mufasa's
23:07 IL illegitimate son they're both new
23:09 members welcome we are so glad and thank
23:12 you Melissa and Dana W thank you for the
23:15 super sticker M Meyer intentional chaos
23:18 inde indeed uh indeed thank you and I'll
23:22 get to everybody else in just a minute
23:25 all right so Abby as I had mentioned was
23:27 clothed here's what Abby was wearing she
24:30 was wearing shoes jeans a black
24:34 sweatshirt and a red you could call it
24:36 pink shirt underneath it not quite a
24:39 camisol just a tank top maybe underneath
24:42 her other clothes there there was a
24:45 large blood stain the whole area
24:48 according to this witness was saturated
24:50 with blood there was a lot of blood he
24:52 believed in this area Libby had her eyes
24:55 and mouth open and there was blood on
24:57 the side of her face andet there was
24:00 also blood coming down into this area
24:03 right here and there was a lot of
24:06 question about how some of how it flowed
24:10 because it seemed as if maybe it had
24:11 gone upward there had been some talk
24:14 about whether um the girls had been
24:17 upside down at some point there was a
24:19 lot of question about where the where
24:21 exactly the blood moved we are going to
24:24 hear from blood spatter experts who will
24:26 talk about that there was a place where
24:28 blood was on Libby's leg and it seemed
25:30 to flow up and across her leg in a way
25:33 that physically would not have made
25:35 possible both girls were on their backs
25:38 Libby um just lying there flat on her
25:42 back and then the the difference for
25:46 Abby was her arms were curled upward and
25:49 inside her shirt sleeves like that so
25:52 they were curled upward toward her and
25:53 then one leg was bent under the other so
25:57 kind of like that
25:59 and that's what she looked like at the
25:02 scene both of them were just a ghastly
25:05 pale it was really horrifying I mean I I
25:09 can't even describe to you how bad it
25:12 was and that's why I'm not going to
25:14 describe it to you I'm just going to
25:15 give you the part that you need and that
25:18 you need to know in order to understand
25:20 what happened and to make some
25:22 intelligent thoughtful um conclusions
25:25 about what happened but I'm not going to
25:27 go into any specific detail ja there are
25:29 Parts you have to know and that's what
26:31 we'll talk
26:32 about there were branches on top of them
26:35 and I will say because everybody's going
26:37 to be wondering uh what were the
26:40 branches like did they look like runes I
26:43 can't say runes um but I did think they
26:46 looked like they were laid in the exact
26:49 same way on top of Libby and on top of
26:52 Abby and they one of girl however had
26:55 three on her and the other girl two so I
26:58 think it was Abby who had three and
26:00 Libby who had two and so it did look it
26:03 was sort of like a cross but it wasn't
26:06 exactly like a cross it's difficult to
26:08 describe and I tried really hard to do
26:10 some drawings for you but as you saw my
26:13 my drawing of the courtroom scene
26:15 yesterday that is not GNA work so I did
26:18 the best I could um but I I think it's
26:21 better to just sort of describe it let's
26:23 see if I have anything anything I can
26:25 show you I don't I really don't think I
26:26 do I don't think I have anything that
26:29 can show you it was just really
27:30 difficult the two girls were were facing
27:35 their they they were they were near each
27:37 other they were not there had been talk
27:39 about how one was on top of the other
27:41 well that was just incorrect that one
27:43 was not on top of the other they were
27:45 both lying separately and both lying on
27:48 their backs but as far as the as they
27:51 were pointed with their feet kind of
27:54 toward each other so out in a V more or
27:57 less with their feet together the bullet
27:60 was found right between their feet right
27:03 around that area they spent a lot of
27:05 time showing us that we'll get to that
27:07 in just a
27:08 minute so um During the period when
27:12 those crime scene photos were being
27:15 shown the attorney Baldwin put his arm
27:18 around Richard Allen and was talking to
27:20 him whispering to him as the pictures
27:23 were shown the one of the points of that
27:26 would be for Baldwin to make the
27:28 statement that this is upsetting for
27:30 Richard Allen too because they content
28:32 he didn't have anything to do with this
28:34 so for him to see this is as upsetting
28:36 as it is for anyone else to
28:39 see the um let's see all right I'm gonna
28:44 skip that we will move next
28:48 to all right we're still on Jason Page
28:51 and to give you a little background on
28:52 him because my outs are a little out of
28:54 order here uh he was um for 24 years
28:57 with the Indiana State police he was a
28:59 crime scene investigator for 16 and has
28:02 processed 1,000 crime scenes I think he
28:05 said about a 100 of those were
28:07 murder he talked we one of the issues
28:11 was the flow of the from the throat to
28:13 the top of the head and the question of
28:16 whether or not could Libby have been
28:17 upside down there was a lot of confusion
28:19 around that both of her hands were
28:23 bloody very bloody her face was turned
28:27 to the side looking sort of toward one
28:30 of the branches I guess but that's how
29:32 it was her arms were out
29:35 straight uh her right thigh had blood
29:38 across the
29:39 leg and the tree blood was actually not
29:43 facing the girls but away from the
29:46 girls the the witness on
29:49 cross-examination and this was by Rosie
29:52 we've heard from Baldwin a lot but this
29:54 is um really the first time I think
29:55 Rosie has done a witness here in this
29:57 trial and said he did not know Rosie
29:02 asked him you don't know when she died
29:04 between 213 the the day that the girls
29:07 disappeared in 2114 the days the bodies
29:09 were found you don't really know exactly
29:11 when in that period of time these girls
29:14 died and he said he did not have an
29:16 opinion about that there and he hit back
29:20 on a theme the defense has been
29:22 developing that there could be scavenger
29:24 animals in the area raccoons buzzards
29:28 and he said did you look at that that
30:30 could tell you about the crime scene
30:32 right about maybe the timing of it and
30:34 the witness just said not necessarily he
30:37 said well you could use in insects right
30:39 and he said well we might on occasion
30:42 but not in this particular case the the
30:44 Witnesses were definitely not giving the
30:47 defense any answers that the defense
30:49 wanted they were primed to not give them
30:52 the answers so that was throughout the
30:55 day he was then Rosie asked a question I
30:59 thought was a little bold he said have
30:01 you heard what happened at the at the
30:03 crime scene was leaked to the public
30:05 early on he said no and then Rosie said
30:08 well in 2017 are you familiar with
30:11 photos being leaked or information about
30:13 the crime scene and he said no the
30:15 reason that was a little bold is because
30:17 of course the defense has been accused
30:19 of leaking photographs of the crime
30:21 scene and it wasn't the defense but the
30:24 photos were laid out on a conference
30:27 room table in one the attorney's offices
30:30 a friend former employee came in took
31:32 photos of those and then distributed
31:35 those to some podcasters at that point
31:37 no one published them and in fact one of
31:40 the podcasters notified law enforcement
31:43 that they had received this and they
31:44 felt like they probably shouldn't have
31:46 received that at that point then the
31:48 judge fired the lawyers she got really
31:51 angry Supreme Court reinstated them
31:54 that's a whole can of worms but what
31:56 happened at the at the crime was leaked
31:59 twice then and so I thought I thought it
31:02 was a little risky for him to ask that
31:03 because the witness might have said are
31:05 you sure you don't mean the time that
31:06 you leak the photos and it would have
31:08 been really a bad situation but the
31:10 witness didn't say
31:12 that he also Rosie talked about the fact
31:16 that there is not a lot of evidence
31:18 connecting Richard Allen to this crime
31:20 scene DNA he said that's something you
31:23 take extra precautions with right he
31:25 said are you aware of any DNA evidence
31:28 and the witness had to say no I'm not
32:30 and there was this I think I wrote this
32:32 down pretty close to a quote there was
32:35 no trace evidence material to this case
32:39 uh no trace evidence material to this
32:41 case was recovered so they didn't get
32:44 fingerprints they didn't get DNA and or
32:48 some blood of Richard Allen that was
32:50 left which would be DNA or or anything
32:53 else that connected him he didn't drop
32:54 his wallet his keys weren't there there
32:56 was nothing physically to connect him to
32:60 this crime scene they and the witness
32:02 admitted no we don't have anything like
32:05 that they did not try to recover trace
32:09 evidence from those sticks that were
32:11 across the girls the defense cites this
32:14 is a missed opportunity that If Only
32:17 They had made more of an effort they
32:18 could have gotten this they and they
32:21 said we did examine them but we he the
32:24 witness later talked about the fact that
32:26 they just didn't even collect them I'll
32:29 get to that in just a minute aby's
33:31 clothing was damp suggesting that that
33:34 supports the theory that the girls were
33:37 moved across the creek and you're going
33:39 to see several things throughout this
33:41 that will support that the witness said
33:43 he looked up the weather report for what
33:45 was the weather like on February 13 2017
33:49 and in fact he said he just looked it up
33:50 a couple of days ago and the high that
33:53 day we'd heard it was unseasonably warm
33:55 the high was 70 de the low though was 30
33:58 4 so the girls if they were killed that
33:01 afternoon were out all night in the cold
33:04 he also talked about shoe Impressions
33:07 that were photographed around the scene
33:09 and also on the south side of the creek
33:11 and the defense says this is also
33:13 another missed opportunity and it's
33:16 another way to show that Richard Allen's
33:18 not the
33:20 guy they they talked about the fact that
33:23 those photo those Footprints didn't
33:26 include a small man footprint the only
33:29 thing they found was a partial
34:31 impression down moving down from the
34:34 monan High Bridge toward the creek and
34:36 they thought that was probably Libby's
34:38 shoe so there was there was no man's
34:41 shoe small man's shoe mixed in with that
34:44 that meant they couldn't connect Richard
34:46 Allen to being with the two girls as he
34:48 took them down the side of the Hill
34:50 which is the prosecution
34:52 Theory the um he talked about the hair
34:56 that was in aby's hands and
34:59 how long it would have take would take
34:01 to process it they are waiting eagerly
34:04 for that hair to come back for some
34:06 reason which is just not really
34:09 understandable the prosecution waited
34:11 seven years to test a hair that was in
34:13 Libby's hand that had a follicle on it
34:15 and therefore had DNA it appears that it
34:19 is female DNA and that it matches one of
34:22 Libby's relatives so it doesn't sound
34:24 like it's going to be a bombshell it's
34:26 not some man's hair that that she
34:28 grasped as he was attacking her it's not
35:30 like that it appears it's just going to
35:33 be she was trying on her sister's shirt
35:34 and she got a hair on it now could there
35:37 in theory be some connection between one
35:39 of Libby's family members and the murder
35:41 I guess possibly I think that is a
35:44 really really really hard sell to so I
35:48 think that it would be difficult to for
35:50 that to really end up benefiting the the
35:52 defense but they did nonetheless talk
35:54 about
35:55 it all right let me thank aoup couple
35:58 more people because we have tons of
35:60 people I need to thank Striker Anderson
35:02 is a new member awesome hope Evans thank
35:06 you for your super
35:07 sticker and n t is thanking me for the
35:10 coverage it is not an easy trial to
35:12 cover that is all I will have to say
35:14 about it thank you uh thank you very
35:16 much Nel T and
35:18 Nemesis you trust I won't give up I hope
35:21 not but that I can only go one to two
35:23 hours of sleep a night for so long we
35:25 will have to see if I can figure out a
35:27 way around and if you have suggestions
35:30 put them in the chat because I think
36:32 what is going on right now isn't
36:34 sustainable there has to be another way
36:37 of accessing it and getting the
36:39 information that we very much need out
36:41 of this trial it is so critically
36:44 important and a constitutional right
36:46 that every defendant have a public trial
36:48 and that is not something that we do
36:51 just it's not just words we put in the
36:53 Constitution part of the reason we do
36:55 that is because we really do believe
36:57 that if there's not oversight by the
36:60 public into the trial then there may be
36:03 injustice people may be convicted
36:05 wrongly they may be charged wrongly and
36:07 they may be sent to jail when someone
36:09 else committed a crime so we are
36:11 specifically wanting to know if Richard
36:14 Allen actually committed this crime
36:16 that's ultimately the question in a case
36:19 and public oversight is what makes it
36:21 really clear that the trial is fair that
36:24 he's receiving every possible
36:26 opportunity and may I say by the way the
36:28 jury is so engaged they are doing such
37:32 an amazing job they are writing notes
37:34 they are leaning forward they are
37:36 hanging on every word it's really
37:40 impressive all right uh uh clever
37:43 nickname is a new member that's
37:44 fantastic Nemesis super sticker thank
37:48 you very much I appreciate that and TLA
37:50 is a new member I'm gonna um thank you
37:54 TLA 1616 Terry and uh Tom 23 I'm going
37:58 to stop right there uh super sticker
37:60 thank you so much all right we are now
37:03 going to get into the bullet casing huge
37:07 issue today during the testimony and the
37:09 bullet casing as I mentioned was found
37:12 between the bodies of the two girls
37:14 right at their feet so the girls are
37:16 lying like this and the bullet casing is
37:19 right there between the
37:20 feet so they were they there was a stick
37:26 that was over the bullet just kind I
37:28 don't think it was literally over the
37:30 bullet because it was coming off the
38:31 girls bodies the projectile was facing
38:35 downward it was really amazing that they
38:38 found it and I I'll tell you the story
38:40 when we get to the next
38:42 witness they there are no photographs of
38:45 it being lifted out of the ground and
38:48 there are no photographs or videos video
38:51 of it sitting on a countertop in the lab
38:55 before it's being tested the defensive
38:58 has made a great deal of about that I do
38:02 think it backfired I think it ended up
38:04 creating a problem for the defense with
38:06 the jury but he would th this particular
38:09 witness said well I wouldn't I wouldn't
38:11 normally take photos or video of that
38:14 being taken out of the ground I wouldn't
38:16 really be focused on that and it's not
38:19 necessary to place it on a table and
38:21 photograph it I wouldn't do it the
38:23 defense had a good point which is what
38:25 if this particular bullet that you pull
38:28 out of the ground had a dent or a paint
39:30 mark because that might make it very
39:33 identifiable and the fact that you
39:35 didn't document what it looked like that
39:38 creates a problem for us so defense we
39:41 you say it completely matches Richard
39:44 Allen's but you didn't show us pictures
39:46 of exactly what you took out of the
39:48 ground so how do we know it wasn't
39:49 changed or altered somewhere between the
39:52 time you pulled it out and the time you
39:54 tested
39:56 it he was never asked to inspect lots of
39:60 things around the area the defense said
39:02 well you weren't asked to inspect around
39:05 let's see if we
39:06 can pull this up see the mir's farm up
39:10 there and there are fields around it
39:12 they said you weren't asked to inspect
39:14 around the mir's farmhouse in the
39:16 cornfields you weren't asked to inspect
39:18 behind the mir's farm you weren't asked
39:20 to inspect over by the freedom Bridge
39:23 you you didn't search around the Hooser
39:25 Harvest store which is really between
39:27 the bridge and the mir's entrance up
39:29 there closer to the mir's farm he they
40:33 said you didn't look at any of that and
40:36 so that
40:37 was the point being that this search
40:40 wasn't really complete that law
40:42 enforcement didn't do a good enough job
40:45 looking for the evidence it would have
40:49 they believe shown Richard Allen
40:50 couldn't be the Killer and help law
40:52 enforcement finger the right
40:55 person so they went into a list of who
40:58 was at the crime scene that was one of
40:01 the one of the huge issues by the
40:02 defenses maybe someone else dropped this
40:05 40 caliber casing right there between
40:08 the girls after all there were law
40:10 enforcement people in and out but the
40:12 the prosecution has person by person
40:15 eliminated that defense each and every
40:18 person they say were you there what gun
40:20 did you have what what if you had one at
40:23 all and if you did have it what kind of
40:26 bullet casing would you have had or what
40:27 kind of bullet did you use and without
41:31 exception they've all so far said that
41:34 they've limited the number of people who
41:36 were there and so far each one of them
41:39 has said I did not have a 40 caliber gun
41:41 some of them said I didn't have a gun at
41:43 all and they've talked about how careful
41:45 they were keeping people out of that
41:48 area now another suggestion that a rumor
41:52 had been that maybe that bullet was
41:54 planted and it wasn't found until some
41:56 days after after the murder that was
41:59 definitely dispelled by the fact that
41:01 there were actually pictures of the
41:03 bullet with the body still present at
41:05 the scene so we'll get to that in just a
41:08 minute all right let's see anything else
41:11 about that a the the witness was asked
41:14 well would it be helpful uh to show the
41:17 round being plucked out of the ground uh
41:19 and that it's the same as the one you
41:22 actually tested that you say is Richard
41:24 Allen and the witness said well okay
41:26 yeah it could be so they got that far
41:28 with
41:30 it the next witness was um Dwayne I got
42:34 his correct last name uh datzman Dwayne
42:38 datzman with the with he is now with
42:42 courtroom security but retired from the
42:44 Indiana State Police years with the
42:46 Indiana State Police he was a sergeant
42:48 in the lab for 20 years he went to this
42:51 scene and did scene photos and aerial
42:54 photos he said he had no firearm with
42:57 him yet another person eliminated he
42:59 talked about Ground Zero and the which
42:03 was within several feet he called it
42:06 around the
42:07 bodies he arrived at that at 1:21 p.m.
42:11 and left at 10:30 p.m so a long period
42:15 of time processing
42:17 this Abby was we we saw this is uh when
42:21 I began to see the photographs for
42:23 myself Abby um having her mouth open
42:26 blood from her neck on to the side of
42:28 her
42:29 face Libby uh had some blood on her heel
43:32 so as if she had maybe stepped in some
43:36 blood and here we finally got a
43:39 description of how that bullet was
43:43 located and really it was quite a story
43:46 because they were using a blue light
43:48 around the bodies to find blood this
43:51 blue light would illum illuminate areas
43:54 where they would see blood and they
43:56 would know okay 's an area there's an
43:58 area that's what they were looking for
43:00 well this particular witness didn't wear
43:04 the goggles that you normally wear so
43:07 that you can see it I forgotten why he
43:08 said there was some reason that he
43:10 wasn't wearing those orange goggles like
43:12 they bothered him I can't remember what
43:13 he said but he kept as they were shining
43:16 it around since he wasn't wearing the
43:18 goggles he kept seeing a glitter
43:21 something glitter right there in the
43:22 leaves he saw it but saw it again wait a
43:25 minute and so he brushed the leaves away
43:28 and found this 40 caliber cartridge now
44:32 could it have been there for a long time
44:35 yeah sure could have been could have
44:37 been there is hunting he talked about in
44:39 the area there are deer in the area so
44:43 possibly there could have been one there
44:45 all along but it was quite a coincidence
44:47 for it to be right there between the
44:49 girl's
44:52 feet he talked about the head of the
44:55 unfired cartridge being faced down and
44:58 what he could see and what was shown on
44:01 the photograph was the base of the
44:03 bullet casing so that ultimately was
44:05 pulled out there were no other
44:07 cartridges located anywhere in that
44:10 crime scene that was the only one but of
44:12 course it was kind of amazing that they
44:14 even found that one because it was
44:16 covered with leaves that had to be
44:17 brushed off and if they hadn't done that
44:19 light probably no one would have seen it
44:21 that's what made the
44:23 glint he talked about the sticks on the
44:25 body and they discussed what are we to
44:27 do with these sticks and ultimately they
44:30 decided we're just going to leave them
45:31 there and they saw they didn't see any
45:33 blood on them he said they were rough
45:35 and crumbly some of them had Lykan on it
45:37 they decided they had no evidentiary
45:40 value and so they didn't collect them or
45:42 take them into the lab for examination
45:45 now the defense made some good hay with
45:47 that about the fact that obviously those
45:51 should have been pretty important to the
45:53 scene they were actually touching the
45:55 girls and the defense wanted to know
45:57 well couldn't somebody touch DNA beyond
45:60 that for example someone put those
45:01 sticks on the girls oh another thing I
45:04 wanted to mention to you when I heard
45:06 about these sticks arranged on the girls
45:09 in my head I thought maybe somebody was
45:11 trying to camouflage them trying to hide
45:14 them and I pictured branches leafy green
45:18 branches or maybe evergreen trees that
45:20 were being put on the girls it wasn't
45:23 like that it was literally sticks so it
45:25 didn't really do a good job
45:28 at hiding a body if that's what it was
45:30 aiming for it was just really
46:32 ineffective that just is not how it
46:35 worked so in fact um he said that there
46:39 were two different things I wrote down
46:41 so I cannot tell you exactly which one
46:43 is right usually I try to clarify these
46:45 with other people but I didn't realize
46:46 till I went back through my notes that I
46:48 had two different things one was that
46:50 two to three days later he went back to
46:53 collect those sticks and the other was
46:56 that on March 3D he went back to collect
46:59 those sticks either way it was after the
46:01 crime scene had been processed and the
46:03 entire processing had ended that he went
46:06 back to get them now the defense tried
46:08 to get him to admit that he went back
46:10 because somebody said what do you mean
46:11 you didn't bring the sticks in go get
46:13 those sticks bring them in we're gonna
46:15 test them but he at that point he denied
46:18 that he didn't really answer why he he
46:21 just went back it wasn't really clear
46:23 but I think probably most people figured
46:25 yeah somebody said you need to go back
46:27 back and get those at least some
46:29 somebody started talking about it and he
47:30 thought to himself I need to go back in
47:32 any event somebody concluded it he also
47:36 talked about the disturbance in the soil
47:39 down to that drive right below the
47:41 bridge and how he tried to find shoe
47:43 Impressions found only that partial
47:46 one The Searchers had climbed through
47:48 the dirt looking for the girls so he
47:50 just figured we don't really know who's
47:52 who's what here he did not find shoe
47:54 impressions of what he called
47:56 evidentiary value you now the
47:59 cross-examination talked about whether
47:02 or not the crime scene should be
47:04 photographically documented and he
47:06 really wanted them to have photographed
47:07 the bullet being taken out of the ground
47:09 and I think that backfired in just a
47:12 minute I'll explain to you why he talked
47:15 about the fact that maybe the tip could
47:16 be this kind of tip or another type of
47:19 tip if you don't show us a picture of it
47:21 how do we know which type of tip this
47:24 particular room was he did not actually
47:26 notice that clothes were damp the
47:29 defense trying to make the point well
47:30 you weren't that
48:31 observant he did not see shoe prints of
48:34 any evidentiary value but there were
48:36 some that looked similar to the victim's
48:38 shoes which seems like of evidentiary
48:41 value did you see a small adult male
48:44 print next to the victim shoe print no
48:48 and he refused to agree that this was an
48:50 odd crime scene which I thought was a
48:53 little bit it I told you that the
48:55 Witnesses were really oppos oppositional
48:58 with the defense and there were some of
48:60 these things that they just should have
48:01 agreed with I mean by any standard this
48:04 is an odd crime scene two young girls
48:07 found dead right next to each other in
48:09 the middle of a park with sticks on top
48:11 of them that's just odd there's no way
48:14 around it there was a question then from
48:16 Baldwin or whoever was asking this I
48:20 think it was Baldwin um have you ever
48:21 seen sticks arranged in a pattern on a
48:24 body like this before and
48:27 there was an objection by the
48:29 prosecution to the word arranged and
49:31 that was sustained by the judge now what
49:33 that was about is the judge has told the
49:36 defense they can't bring in their theory
49:39 that odinis committed this murder and
49:41 that these sticks were arranged in runed
49:44 forms that is uh very controversial that
49:48 ruling uh many and I would be included
49:50 in this think that the defense should
49:52 have been allowed to bring in at least
49:54 some of those third-party culprits and
49:56 some of the evidence related to those
49:58 third parties and that it makes it very
49:01 risky on appeal because all of that was
49:04 eliminated and he does have the right to
49:06 present anything he connects up to the
49:09 crime all right they asked about um
49:14 whether he was whether it would have
49:16 been wise to maybe get some blood
49:18 spatter from that tree that had what the
49:22 defense says is an f on it and what the
49:25 prosecution apparently believes is
49:27 handprints from Libby and they said no
49:30 the photos documented it well enough the
50:32 witness did said are you aware of sticks
50:34 or other items left behind that did have
50:37 blood and he said maybe smaller ones and
50:41 the defense point was well that's pretty
50:44 important that's like really
50:46 important and also he this was a a good
50:50 cqu by the defense attorney they said
50:54 may it was he said he didn't let the
50:57 sticks remember he said they were of no
50:59 evidentiary value for the most part they
50:01 were crumbly and then Baldwin and it was
50:03 Baldwin said it it was if it was rough
50:06 couldn't there be skin cells on it and
50:08 he said well maybe wasn't it a mistake
50:10 not to get that and the witness said
50:12 well I don't think so well somebody
50:14 placed that on those girls right maybe
50:17 there were skin cells on there and and
50:20 the witness said something like unless
50:21 he was wearing gloves or maybe wwin did
50:24 and he said the witness said
50:28 I think it was the witness said that
50:29 Baldwin saidwell was he wearing gloves
51:31 and the witness Saidi have no idea and
51:33 Baldwin said yeah that's exactly right
51:36 because that was his point is you don't
51:37 know whether he was wearing gloves so
51:39 why don't you collect it and maybe
51:41 you'll get lucky and you'll get some
51:42 touch
51:44 DNA and at some point they did test it
51:47 but it was some period of time later
51:49 well I guess I don't know yet that they
51:51 tested it I know they collected
51:53 it all right let's see what else never
51:56 and he also o was not asked to look at
51:58 those areas around the mir's farm or
51:00 around the Hooser Harvest store anything
51:02 like
51:03 that what was the temperature of the
51:06 girls when they were found that was
51:08 another question important one and he
51:10 said he didn't know they didn't test
51:12 should you have tested he asked he said
51:14 well they didn't want to insert anything
51:16 due to the potential that there had been
51:19 SV he said well couldn't you put a
51:21 thermometer under the armpit and they
51:24 had not done that so A couple of these
51:27 things um and he went into how do you
52:31 calculate the decline in body
52:33 temperature and the witness really
52:34 didn't seem to know the answers around
52:36 this issue and it's so important because
52:38 the temperature of the girls bodies
52:40 might give a clue to when they were
52:42 murdered and could prove whether the
52:44 defense is right that the bodies were
52:46 left there sometime between 2 and 4 in
52:49 the morning or whether the prosecution
52:51 is right that they have been dead since
52:53 the earlier
52:55 afternoon so did anyone measured the air
52:58 temperature he said it was 41° on the
52:00 14th which was a little different from
52:02 what we had heard from the other guy
52:04 although he was talking about the 13th
52:06 so maybe the 70 degrees had gone away by
52:09 the 14th talked about some items that
52:12 were not collected such as another bra a
52:16 sock a shirt on a bench a Jimmy John's
52:20 cup with a straw an energy drink and a
52:23 couple of cigarette boot butts fresh at
52:25 the entrance to the bridge
52:27 and uh some of these were collect I
53:30 don't know if any of them were collected
53:32 he went through I understood this to be
53:34 a list of things that were not
53:38 collected the prosecution then pointed
53:41 out that core temperature is the
53:44 temperature at the center of the body so
53:45 you can't measure that by putting a
53:48 thermometer under an armpit that's not
53:50 going to give you the core temperature
53:52 although I don't know it might be pretty
53:53 close they'll have to ask probably
53:56 either the some kind of expert related
53:59 to that but at this point the argument
53:02 that they couldn't take the temperature
53:03 because of worry about whether there was
53:05 SV that's sort of the where this entire
53:09 issue
53:10 ended the the cross-examination ended
53:13 with this question if you had it to do
53:15 all over again would you have taken a
53:18 photo of the end of the bullet to show
53:20 the
53:21 jury so this it's the same as the one
53:25 that you tested against Richard Allen's
53:27 Gun he said I imagine I would have but
54:31 then but then and this is where things
54:34 headed south for the defense the the
54:37 jury asked a question and they have
54:39 asked fantastic questions really
54:42 perceptive and showing great involvement
54:45 and here it was would there be any
54:47 reason that the bullet submitted to
54:49 evidence would be a different bullet
54:52 which gave the witness the opportunity
54:54 to say no it it would be the same it
54:58 would be exactly the same that's I put
54:00 it and the next question is there a
54:03 process to ensure jury is seeing
54:05 evidence that is not
54:08 tampered and that gave the witness the
54:10 opportunity to say we have policies and
54:12 rules and chain of custody and I I
54:15 signed this in to an Evidence Clerk and
54:17 we're really careful with all of this
54:19 there's a chain of custody we don't just
54:21 willy-nilly you know throw things in a
54:24 bin and then they figure out what case
54:25 they're going to assign it to were very
54:27 cautious and careful with him Baldwin
54:30 did not have any questions after this
55:32 and it really I thought made an impact
55:35 because the jury was saying look is this
55:37 a real concern or is this just a
55:39 question that's kind of made up by the
55:41 defense and I think the answer came back
55:43 pretty soundly that it's not a real
55:46 question these are these are kept in a
55:49 careful chain of command it also
55:52 prompted a real change in the way the
55:54 prosecution handled the rest of what
55:57 they were doing throughout the rest of
55:59 the day they were extremely careful with
55:02 everything they said about chain of
55:05 custody they went into phenomenal detail
55:07 and then you put it in what kind of
55:09 container and what was it made of and
55:11 why did you use the paper container
55:13 instead of plastic and they went in
55:14 detail and who did you take it to and
55:16 who took it you took it personally okay
55:18 and you took it to okay you took it to
55:20 the evidence guy and how what did you do
55:22 I signed it in and what what did that
55:24 person do well they accepted it and then
55:26 it was number numbered and they went
55:28 into a lot of detail to reassure the
56:30 jury with an issue that they were
56:32 obviously worried about an issue about
56:34 are we getting legitimate evidence
56:37 that's actually in processed that comes
56:39 from the scene and that there's no
56:41 problem or issue
56:43 with so I thought that that it it led to
56:46 sort of a change in the tenor in in that
56:49 area the Final witness for the day was
56:51 Brian Oley who was employed by the
56:54 Indiana State Police until 2021 when he
56:57 retired he was a crime scene
56:58 investigator for seven years he um and
56:02 let me before I forget let me thank uh
56:04 some more people I am so appreciative
56:07 you do not know how much I appreciate
56:09 your super chats your nice comments it
56:11 it means a great deal to me so let's see
56:14 where Tom 23 was and then I'll put oh we
56:17 have new members tangerine and Brandon
56:20 mccroy welcome to both of
56:23 you and gingi probs I'm stunned by the
56:26 lack of access says it seems like you
56:27 tell us about a new barrier each day so
57:30 it it is it's a new issue each and every
57:33 day that is really how it's been and it
57:36 is um difficult it is difficult to see
57:38 the case and I am still here so there
57:41 you have it that's what I have to say so
57:43 far um and I do want to say thank you
57:46 Sky goddess for your Super Chat and I
57:48 would definitely give a shout out to our
57:51 mods Marlon and Mama pinks who were
57:53 doing extra work during the trial I
57:56 really am so so appreciative hope Evans
57:58 new member and then uh Finn uh can a
57:02 higher Court get involved with having an
57:04 overflow room I don't think any higher
57:06 court is going to order something as
57:07 specific as an overflow room that would
57:10 have to be done by the trial court all
57:12 right let's head back over to our notes
57:14 for the
57:15 day so the this next witness arrived at
57:20 the cemetery well remember the cemetery
57:22 right at the top there right at the
57:24 cemetery and talked about how it drops
57:25 off Fair abruptly and steeply sharply
57:29 was his word from the cemetery down to
58:31 the creek it's heavily wooded hey we got
58:34 several hints today that maybe there
58:37 were trail cameras well that would be
58:40 incredible evidence right it might show
58:42 people walking through that would be
58:43 great but although it was mentioned
58:45 twice apparently there either were no
58:48 trail cameras or no one actually got
58:50 footage from them we didn't get anything
58:52 from that and from the way the witness
58:54 is taught I don't think there is
58:55 anything
58:57 now he was a little unclear about
58:00 whether he had a firearm at all but if
58:02 he did it had 45 caliber not 40 caliber
58:06 bullets in it there were then we went
58:09 into a little more detail this witness
58:11 did about what exactly was found in the
58:14 creek the clothing that we found there
58:16 and we had been talking about that on
58:18 earlier of our broadcast and so we got a
58:20 little bit more there was a camiso with
58:24 that was black with a pink emblem some
58:26 kind of pink logo on it it was a size
58:29 large brand Faded Glory there were jeans
59:33 that were inside out and the underwear
59:35 was inside them kind of hooked to them
59:38 and there was a tie-dye shirt extra
59:40 large so all of those things probably
59:43 would have been well not the jeans
59:45 necessarily but the other things would
59:46 have been things that Libby was wearing
59:49 the jeans might have been aby's and then
59:51 aby's was wearing Libby's jeans at the
59:54 scene we didn't get a definitive answer
59:56 on that but that's what I think they
59:57 were saying there were also footed ankle
59:00 socks black with some debris on them
59:03 there was a handkerchief or bandana
59:05 which I think Abby had been wearing
59:07 earlier there was a Nike shoe in the
59:11 creek large and still tied oh libes lies
59:15 not large um there I put an L there and
59:18 it was still tied now that was important
59:20 because the Witnesses were trying to
59:22 suggest that it came off it got sat down
59:27 maybe in the mud or something as she was
59:28 being forced across the creek that's why
60:31 she lost one of her Nike tennis shoes
60:34 one thing I did think they showed us a
60:37 picture of the bottom of Libby's feet
60:39 and they were dirty they had dirt on
60:41 them and blood at the heel but it did
60:44 seem to me that Crossing that Creek
60:47 would would create a especially if if
60:50 she wasn't wearing clothing there would
60:52 she would definitely have scratches that
60:56 her feet would be cut up and it didn't
60:59 appear that way from the picture so that
60:01 may be something that we see the defense
60:02 head into next is do they have injuries
60:06 consistent with having been forced
60:08 across the creek especially Libby who
60:10 apparently was not even wearing
60:13 shoes and there was also a zip up hooded
60:18 gray shirt gray sweatshirt fleece that
60:22 was submerged between the jeans and then
60:24 a clump stuck on a root that had the
60:26 shoe and the tie-dyed shirt on it so all
60:28 of those things were there in the creek
61:31 sort of along aign there and the there
61:35 was blood on the back of Libby's leg is
61:38 what I wrote there I did not when they
61:40 rolled her over I personally didn't
61:42 actually see
61:44 that they um he talked about in detail
61:48 like I told you about all the steps he
61:50 took he wore two pairs of rubber gloves
61:52 so he wouldn't contaminate it he took
61:54 swabs he and talked about all the
61:56 different things he did to try to
61:59 preserve and make sure that anything he
61:01 took like DNA samples or swabs anything
61:05 was pure and pristine and didn't get
61:08 contaminated by somebody else at the
61:10 screen at the scene he talked about the
61:12 lockers how they put them in an
61:14 individual Locker they connect it to a
61:16 particular case they have an Evidence
61:18 clerk he just went into a whole lot of
61:19 detail to reassure the jury that they
61:22 were doing everything they could to get
61:24 accurate evidence to the jury
61:28 all right underneath and we did finally
61:30 see they rolled aby's body over and
62:32 underneath we could see that one Nike
62:36 shoe and next to it the phone which had
62:41 uh it had um a Harry Potter case on it
62:45 and to me that was so poignant because
62:47 it was such a teen thing you know she
62:50 thought that was cool she really liked
62:52 having Harry Potter on her phone and
62:54 just the contrast between that and just
62:57 sort of the joyful youth of that and
62:60 this scene where these two bodies are
62:02 lying there and it was I thought that
62:06 was very poignant I thought that was
62:07 really telling about what exactly this
62:11 scene really
62:14 means they were cold to the touch the
62:16 witness said rigor mortise was
62:18 pronounced and set which would suggest
62:21 the bodies have been there for some
62:22 period of time I imagine we'll hear from
62:24 Witnesses with different ideas about
62:27 just how long that was the jeans that
62:30 were on Abby were too large for her
63:33 suggesting she was wearing Libby's jeans
63:36 that was that has always been a very
63:38 confusing Point how did they how and why
63:41 did they swap clothing how exactly did
63:43 that even happen there was another shoe
63:47 cons the shoe underneath her was
63:49 consistent with the one in the creek
63:50 they were a matching pair and remember
63:53 the one in the creek if I didn't mention
63:54 this was tied suggest guessing it she'd
63:57 actually been wearing it when she lost
63:59 it all right being and okay I have hit
63:03 the end of my notes so let me head over
63:04 into the chat and I will answer a few
63:06 questions let's see where we were
63:08 thanking people I was with Finn looking
63:12 now for Finn so I can thank other people
63:15 I'm not finding
63:17 Finn I am looking for Finn um all right
63:21 I'm just going to stop oh there we go
63:23 okay Sr are you allowed to discuss the
63:25 questions that the jurors put forth to
63:27 the people on the stand yes to the
63:29 extent we learned them thus far it
64:31 appears the judge has read each and
64:33 every one the procedure is the jury asks
64:37 a question in written form and they hand
64:39 it to the bayth sometimes I can see who
64:41 asked it a lot of times it happens and I
64:44 can't really tell who wrote that down
64:46 initially and passed it in and then the
64:48 bayi takes it to the judge the judge
64:50 reads it calls the lawyers up and they
64:52 have a conference they turn on some
64:54 static so people in the courtroom can't
64:56 overhear it they all have this
64:58 conference she comes back on the bench
64:01 that conference is about is this a
64:03 question that can be answered and a lot
64:05 of times when jurors are allowed to ask
64:07 questions the things they're asking
64:09 about are the things that jurors would
64:10 want to know but that have been ruled
64:12 out under the Rules of Evidence that's
64:14 not the case here these have all been
64:17 questions that were just highly
64:18 practical and the judg has read them as
64:20 far as I can tell all of them without
64:22 any redaction just read them and had the
64:25 witness answer them so in my coverage
64:27 I've covered every single jury question
64:30 that I've heard if I missed any this
65:32 morning I don't think I did because I
65:34 did talk to three other people and get
65:35 their notes so I don't think I did but
65:37 those juror questions I've given to you
65:39 in their entirety so that that and I
65:42 think they're so important because they
65:44 are a window into how the jury is
65:46 thinking and what they're worried about
65:48 so that's why I always try to include
65:50 those I think they're really really
65:53 important all right gret anaro thank you
65:55 for the super sticker very much I
65:57 appreciate that and DC prime time oh
65:00 thank you thank you very
65:03 much so gingi Props is asking a question
65:06 about how doll being used in prison
65:09 because that was one of the drugs that
65:11 was given to Richard Allen he claims
65:14 that he conf well the prosecution says
65:17 he confessed multiple times to the crime
65:19 he says well the reason for that is you
65:22 heavily medicated me and you tortured me
65:25 basically by putting me in a situation
65:28 where I was in solitary confinement for
66:30 four solid months people were yelling
66:32 things at me I was not allowed out and
66:34 this whole living condition given my
66:37 already existing major depressive
66:40 illness meant I was just driven nuts and
66:44 I started confessing that's what his
66:46 argument is so she's asking about the
66:49 use of that imprisons I all I can say is
66:53 it was I think that is the name of the
66:54 drug that was prescribed to we'll hear
66:56 more about it but that's what I remember
66:58 too so I all I can say is it must be
66:00 legal um thank you Coco I appreciate
66:04 that and punk rock I appreciate that as
66:08 well so DC prime time is saying that so
66:12 far DC prime time is kind of leaning
66:14 toward ra being guilty but is it Beyond
66:16 A Reasonable
66:17 Doubt I am really one of the reasons I'm
66:20 up here is I really don't know to me
66:23 it's most important that he receive a
66:26 Fair trial because I cannot tell you
66:29 after seeing these pictures how much I
67:32 believe someone must pay for this crime
67:35 but it has to be the right person if
67:37 it's not the right person as I've said
67:39 before that's not Justice that is in
67:42 Justice and so the right person needs to
67:45 be the one charged and then convicted of
67:47 the
67:49 crime all right truth and
67:52 transparency uh thank you yes I
67:54 definitely do need more rest I don't
67:56 think it's going to happen tonight but
67:57 thank you very much I appreciate it
67:60 Amanda the was the bullet under the
67:03 leaves um yes the bullet was under the
67:06 leaves because the witness talked about
67:07 brushing the leaves aside but he saw the
67:10 glint he saw the glint in the light so
67:12 part of it must have been exposed but
67:14 then he brushed the leaves there was
67:16 talk while how did what did you do and
67:18 he said I lightly brush the leaves aside
67:21 to expose it I will say they showed the
67:23 picture on the screen and it could have
67:25 been my angle or or how far away I was I
67:27 really couldn't see this obviously it
67:29 was there because they physically have
68:31 it but I just couldn't see where it was
68:34 they were saying here it is and I I
68:36 don't know I just couldn't see it and
68:38 thank you Kathleen for the super sticker
68:40 all right we'll take a few questions
68:42 we've gone pretty long and I have to get
68:43 up very very early so let me go back and
68:46 see if I can get some of the first
68:48 questions my goodness I there were a lot
68:50 of questions quickly so I may not have
68:52 been I should have been faster all right
68:55 um I'm just going to start here I'm
68:57 sorry if I for it didn't go far enough
68:58 back but Noble terbus asked me about
68:02 whether this was similar to a tarot card
68:05 I don't know I'll have to look at that I
68:06 don't know anything about tarot cards so
68:09 I can't really answer that I have now
68:12 seen the pictur so maybe I can make a
68:13 more informed thought about whether or
68:16 not that's the
68:17 case uh C Butler wants to know was there
68:20 an R kit used the answer is yes we heard
68:23 a reference to it and from what I
68:27 understand the way the prosecution
68:29 phrased it in opening was that Richard
69:31 Allen kidnapped these girls in order to
69:34 have his way with them but he was
69:36 interrupted before he could and that we
69:39 will know that W Richard Allen will tell
69:42 us his motive and how he did it and as
69:46 far as how he got interrupted the only
69:48 way they could know that I think it must
69:49 have been in one of the confessions
69:51 because I I don't know what they mean by
69:53 interrupted uh and but apparently this R
69:57 kit is going to be negative we have not
69:59 heard anything about what it was simply
69:01 that they were going to do on these
69:03 Witnesses weren't involved with that
69:04 portion that will come
69:06 later with other Witnesses could a
69:09 vehicle get into the area where they
69:11 were found Sky gotd his ass no I don't
69:13 think so a vehicle could not get into
69:15 that area be because it was just too
69:18 steep I don't think there would be any
69:20 possibility of that there was across the
69:23 creek there was a road road that
69:26 Vehicles travel that goes to a home
69:28 right there so a vehicle could travel
70:31 along that road then there's a slope
70:34 downward where they saw the slide
70:36 remember um in the dirt going down to
70:39 the creek and then cross a creek and
70:42 then it's a steep climb up the other
70:44 side so they agree that the girls moved
70:47 from one side to the other but they
70:49 don't agree about there being a vehicle
70:50 there on that pathway the defense thinks
70:53 there may have been and the prosecution
70:54 says no this was one guy on the bridge
70:57 this was Richard
70:59 Allen all right looking for a few more
70:03 questions let's see Linda were there any
70:05 bruises on the girls I didn't see any
70:06 from someone holding or carrying them I
70:09 didn't really see any in what we what we
70:11 saw today I I did not spot that and I
70:14 didn't see a lot of cuts or scratches
70:16 like you might have expected if someone
70:18 was walking through the woods and they
70:20 weren't wearing clothing so I found that
70:23 frankly very confusing I do not fully
70:26 understand it I don't have answers yet
70:28 I'm very
71:30 curious Harry Potter is cool says nursy
71:33 dog mom yes yes
71:35 indeed and I that was a very poignant
71:38 thing I thought Tina why was Richard
71:40 Allen suspected and at what point did he
71:42 become a suspect well obviously he had
71:44 to been suspected before they matched
71:48 that bullet casing to his gun and
71:51 because they got a search warrant to get
71:53 his gun and then matched it so they
71:55 suspected before then the facts that we
71:57 know about they didn't have the
71:59 confessions yet so we do know he
71:01 admitted he was at the scene that he
71:04 admitted he was on the bridge that day
71:07 he admitted he had gone to the park that
71:09 day there were um V there was video that
71:13 U of people going by who said they saw
71:15 his car in a certain lot so we knew that
71:17 there were some things that connected
71:19 him to the scene at least to the park
71:22 but there really was very little other
71:24 evidence that's been one of the
71:26 hardfought issues is how little evidence
71:28 there was to connect him to these crimes
72:31 before the search warrant and before the
72:34 confessions both of which happened after
72:36 the arrest and not
72:39 before
72:40 um so a grape kit all right that's what
72:44 I'm supposed to call it all right April
72:45 oin does it statistically make sense
72:48 that a 50-some year old with no criminal
72:50 background would Commit This gruesome of
72:52 an offense seems odd to me but maybe I'm
72:54 just naive could the defense bring that
72:56 up I think they will to the extent they
72:58 can they may not be allowed to talk
72:00 about um the fact that he has not been
72:03 arrested before or that he hasn't been
72:06 convicted of a crime before and so that
72:09 may not come in we'll we find out how
72:12 far the judge will let them go talking
72:14 about that I'm guessing they won't get
72:16 that in but they obviously the
72:19 prosecution won't be able to point to a
72:21 long string of crimes that were very
72:23 similar because there simply are none
72:26 can you tell who the juror questions are
72:28 coming from I they are fantastic I
72:30 totally agree with you Aon C and I
73:33 imagine it is one or two people I saw
73:35 one guy ask a question one time I saw
73:37 him you know rip the page off and hand
73:38 it in but that's the only time I've
73:40 actually been able to spot it and I can
73:43 depending on where you are you can only
73:44 see certain jurors just from the
73:46 particular Vantage points I haven't
73:48 spotted it but I I'm on the hunt I will
73:50 see if I can figure it out whether it's
73:52 just one person lots of them
73:55 is there anything that can place Allen
73:57 at the scene yes there is Allen he
73:59 himself placed himself at the scene now
73:01 there is a big issue about whether he
73:03 was gone before the girls were forced
73:05 down the hill before they were murdered
73:08 even on the government's time frame the
73:11 state says that they were killed
73:13 sometime in the afternoon and he may
73:16 have left according to him as early as
73:17 1:30 that's been stretched out to maybe
73:19 3:30 so there could be overlap both
73:22 sides are still battling the timeline
73:25 and we we will be starting our timeline
73:27 really soon where I will be going into
73:29 what is that who did what win so we can
74:31 kind of look at that and watch it
74:33 unfold as they put in their evidence and
74:35 make that very
74:37 argument Leslie how is the jury
74:39 responding to the defense do they seem
74:41 like they agree with innocent until
74:43 proven guilty I think they've responded
74:45 very well to the defense so far I think
74:47 they do agree with innocent until proven
74:49 guilty for the most part they agreed
74:51 during Vader questioning that yeah
74:53 that's what they would do and so I think
74:55 they were making a real effort to do
74:58 that and to to to wait that's what
74:02 Baldwin kept asking them to do wait wait
74:04 for our evidence wait for our case don't
74:06 just decide right away after you've
74:08 heard a little bit from the state give
74:10 us a chance they were trying to do that
74:12 and I think that they are agreeing with
74:14 that and they are trying now I did think
74:17 that one question today actually was a
74:19 pretty significant one I thought there
74:21 was a shift when the prosecution is made
74:25 a good made a point that the defense
74:27 argument really wasn't making sense the
74:29 defense was arguing that there there
75:32 should have been photographs of the
75:34 bullet as it was taken out of the ground
75:35 there should have been photographs on a
75:36 table in the lab and there weren't and
75:38 the jury said well is this really a deal
75:40 is this really a thing could isn't it is
75:43 there a big risk that the real evidence
75:45 isn't to us have you bothered to make
75:47 sure it's really there so the state is
75:49 now taking that opportunity to be really
75:52 specific with exactly the chain of
75:54 custody
75:56 Olivia's mom is wondering if the casing
75:58 is even related to this crime and if
75:60 that's gone what do they have on Richard
75:01 Allen the the two biggest things are the
75:04 confessions and this bullet casing so
75:06 both of which they only got after they
75:09 already suspected him so with very
75:11 little more than that we know about
75:14 anyway very little more than the fact
75:15 that he put himself at the scene they
75:17 got the search warrant and then they got
75:19 the gun and that's when they actually
75:21 moved to uh begin the prosecution
75:24 process
75:27 s Cipher wondering about appeal I I
75:29 personally have said I really think that
76:32 completely eliminating all thirdparty
76:34 culprit evidence that opens the door
76:38 wide to an appeal you never know the the
76:42 appell court may decide that there was
76:43 sufficient evidence maybe through the
76:46 confessions that it was harmless error
76:49 but these are some pretty big harmless
76:51 errors we'll put it that way could you
76:54 see Richard Allen's reaction or
76:56 Expressions during the crime scene
76:57 photos no he has got his back to the
76:00 gallery so I can't see that at all I'm
76:02 not able to tell anything about what
76:04 he's saying or thinking or any
76:07 Expressions when the amount of blood at
76:09 the scene bua martinz tell them if they
76:11 were killed there or not also weren't
76:13 they able to give an approximate time of
76:15 death so be and Martin that is such a
76:17 great question but the two sides differ
76:18 on that what the prosecution believes is
76:21 there was the there is a lot of blood at
76:23 the scene it happened right there but
76:25 the Defence is suggesting is maybe not
76:27 so much so um let's see where was I cat
77:31 all right let's get Catnapper in
77:33 here so yeah it was they were really
77:36 horrific pictures thank you Catnapper I
77:38 appreciate the thought as well as the
77:40 Super Chat and um then we are at
77:45 Kathleen thank you yes I think the
77:47 transparency is critically important I
77:49 think it matters I think it matters for
77:51 our Constitution and for our country
77:53 Connie thank you so much for the super
77:55 ER and Camila a member for four months
77:58 fantastic thank
77:60 you Megan thank you for that very
77:02 generous Super Chat and is it possible
77:04 for us to start a rotation that's what
77:06 I've been thinking about too we may need
77:08 to do that so we can make sure that
77:10 there are attorney eyes on it at all
77:13 time and the reporting can come through
77:14 to you it's hard to give up wanting to
77:17 be there for every bit of the testimony
77:19 because hearing it yourself is something
77:23 it just it's hard to replace that it
77:24 really makes makes you understand more
77:27 but in it just practically speaking I
78:30 think that probably something along
78:32 those lines is what's going to happen
78:33 have to happen Kathy from Western
78:36 Australia cool that's really cool I
78:38 appreciate your you're watching and
78:40 Camila thank you so much I appreciate it
78:43 very much take myself to a nice dinner I
78:45 did that last weekend somebody gave me a
78:46 state dinner on one of the super chats I
78:48 said I'm doing that I am doing that so I
78:51 did all right well I will see you
78:53 tomorrow night just to remind everybody
78:56 I typically go live at 700 p.m. Eastern
78:59 when I come back from court I have to go
78:01 through my notes I try to sort of
78:03 condense them and organize them a little
78:04 bit mostly cut them down so that I can
78:08 give you just what you actually need as
78:10 opposed to every word that I wrote down
78:12 I write a lot of words down that were
78:14 said so I try to cut that down so I
78:16 don't always go right at seven during
78:18 this period of time I just get my notes
78:21 done as soon as I have them ready and I
78:23 can talk to you that's when I'll go I
78:25 try to do tomorrow a short summary too
78:27 we'll we'll check on that that might be
78:29 something I'll do earlier in the evening
79:31 so I will see y'all tomorrow somewhere
79:34 around 7 maybe more like 7:45 I'll look
79:37 forward to it
79:55 here