00:04 hey everyone we have a lot to go over
00:08 tonight that happened in court today at
00:10 the Richard Allen trial first things
00:12 first um let's make sure my my sound is
00:16 working when I am not home and I don't
00:19 have my earphones I
00:21 rely on all of you while I'm
00:25 live um a lot to cover and I'm a little
00:28 bit late because uh I there is a artist
01:32 in court doing some sketches and uh she
01:36 is finishing up one that is really
01:39 important it'll I think help us
01:40 understand the autopsies a little bit
01:42 more and so I was going over it with her
01:45 and she's going to be sending it to my
01:47 email so I I just want you to know we
01:50 have some sketches kind of showing the
01:52 injuries to Abby and to Libby um so so
01:57 there's your you know by the way trigger
01:59 warning for everyone we are going to be
01:01 talking about um you know difficult
01:05 things and autopsies of two little girls
01:09 who were brutally murdered um thank you
01:14 so much I appreciate that Duncan fund um
01:19 someone brought us Duncan while we were
01:21 asleep uh outside the courthouse and it
01:24 was so delightful to wake up to um thank
01:27 you to everyone for your support thank
01:29 you all right um so I'm going to do what
02:33 I always do and I'm going to go through
02:35 notes clearly autopsies were a very big
02:38 detail detail and deal today where we
02:41 are going to go over them in detail I I
02:44 I'm a Believer in not um holding back
02:49 because I feel it's so important and um
02:51 so I'm going to share that but let's
02:52 just go through the order let's go
02:54 through beginning to end of court today
02:56 all the notes I took and then again um
02:58 when we get to the autopsies I will have
02:00 some sketches to help us understand um
02:04 exactly what we saw today or a bit of
02:07 what we saw a lot less graphic though
02:10 all right it is October 23rd 2024 I'm in
02:13 Deli Indiana and I attended court today
02:16 attended the trial of Richard Allen it
02:20 uh started with a new witness today uh
02:23 Sarah carbaugh uh s c a r b a u g h is
02:28 how uh she spelled her last name she had
03:30 very very long hair I later learned that
03:33 she was 35 years old she stated that on
03:35 the stand and uh you know I I thought
03:39 she looked young um but she uh explained
03:44 that she is uh as local as you can get
03:48 when it comes to Deli she lives right
03:49 outside of Deli sort of Born and Raised
03:51 as local as you can get Troublemaker
03:53 Baker thank you so much um thank you to
03:56 everyone for your support I'll I'll
03:58 thank people later so I can stay focused
03:59 but it mean means a lot thank you to
03:01 everyone and to mods so Sarah would
03:04 visit the trail on a daily basis to walk
03:07 her dog and she would pass by the monan
03:11 High Bridge entrance from her home um
03:15 but she would use the mir's farm
03:18 entrance that's actually the same
03:19 entrance to remind all of you that Libby
03:22 and Abby used that fateful day on
03:24 February 13th 2017 where Kelsey dropped
03:27 them off and uh if anybody sees my video
03:29 of getting the lay of the land I use the
04:31 mir's uh Farm entrance the mir's farm
04:34 entrance is directly in front of the
04:37 mir's farm the mir's family house um
04:40 they donated allegedly donated according
04:41 to Sarah some of the land and that's why
04:44 they um this entrance is directly in
04:47 front of their house mir's Farm entrance
04:51 when uh she was 16 years
04:54 old she would walk across the bridge
04:57 Sarah is explaining but as an adult she
04:01 stopped attempting to walk across the
04:03 bridge um it made her nervous she would
04:06 only go to like a few steps and be done
04:09 um she did not know Abby and Libby but
04:12 she learned that they were missing
04:13 through an amber alert on February 13th
04:17 um she was driving by in her little red
04:21 Saturn uh this day on February 13th uh
04:25 the the mon on High Bridge Trail just to
04:28 see how busy things were on the trail on
04:30 February 13th it was a beautiful day she
05:32 said it was warm for February and she
05:35 would pass uh she she actually would
05:37 pass by does that help um three to four
05:41 times that day and she saw mini cars
05:44 that day on February 13th the last time
05:46 she drove by was around 400 p.m. and I'm
05:51 going to go back to yesterday and state
05:53 that that's exactly right they were able
05:56 to pull surveillance from the hoer store
05:60 and they have Sarah they mentioned we
05:02 didn't know who Sarah was yesterday but
05:04 they had Sarah driving by at
05:07 3:56 p.m. so when she says a little
05:10 around 4 that's exactly right and she
05:14 saw a group of people around that time
05:17 and she saw a woman with blonde hair
05:19 looking stressed out and she saw that
05:22 this group of people just kind of looked
05:24 and she kept saying that's stressed out
05:26 they just seemed stressed I realize you
05:28 can see my computer behind this is that
06:31 is that better okay there we go so she
06:35 just seemed uh the the the woman with
06:37 blonde hair seem stressed out she uh
06:39 Sarah was driving
06:41 Eastbound and she saw on the north side
06:44 of the road a man walking West covered
06:47 in mud and
06:50 blood I looked at him Sarah says and he
06:54 did not make eye contact with me she
06:58 slowed down because there was was a man
06:00 walking on the side of the road that is
06:03 why she slowed down she did not
06:05 recognize him and she again states that
06:08 she did not know Abby and Libby were
06:11 missing at this
06:13 time by the way at this moment I put in
06:15 parentheses that Richard Allen and his
06:18 attorney Baldwin are talking during this
06:21 uh testimony of
06:23 Sarah Sarah explains that she learned
06:26 the girls were missing after she arrived
06:28 home so at this time she did not know
07:32 she then learned of the photo of the
07:35 bridge guy after she learned the girls
07:36 were missing and she recognized the man
07:39 as the one she saw on the road covered
07:42 in mud and
07:44 blood his demeanor Sarah says was
07:47 noticeable sketchy was the exact word
07:50 she said he was sketchy she says she
07:54 explains that when someone is walking on
07:56 the side of the road towards you you
07:58 notice he was walking like this and she
07:01 demonstrates and I took note of how she
07:03 demonstrates so I'm going to show you
07:05 she actually stood up off the stand
07:07 walked in front of the jury to
07:09 demonstrate how this man who was covered
07:12 in mud and blood was walking so I will
07:15 do it for you taking one for the team
07:17 Sarah did
07:21 too if there's room here
08:33 Sarah explained that he was hunched over
08:37 like that and that's how he walked and
08:39 she did that walk in front of the jury
08:42 you guys will never see that so I did my
08:45 best to recreate Sarah's
08:48 walk
08:53 um there was she explains mud on the top
08:58 and blood and mud on his legs and it
08:01 caught her attention she wondered if he
08:05 had fallen down a
08:07 cliff she noticed the sun behind her as
08:11 she was heading east that was what also
08:13 helped her understand the time of day
08:16 she is actually Sarah explains to the
08:18 jury traumatized with anything that has
08:21 to do with murder and she also
08:23 overthinks things a lot so she did not
08:26 say anything at first about seeing this
08:29 man cover with mud and
09:31 blood um but 3 weeks later at the mir's
09:36 entrance there was an officer stopping
09:39 cars and taking tips and she decided to
09:43 be brave and tell the police what she
09:46 saw now she is speaking to the jurors
09:49 when she explains that when this
09:51 happened that the Del Deli the town is
09:54 so small and it is so tight-knit that
09:57 this crime turned their town upside down
09:00 it was frightening she says the police
09:04 presence was really upped and so on that
09:06 day they were actually barricades
09:08 requesting cars to stop to share any
09:11 tips they might have she spoke to police
09:13 that day and she gave her official
09:16 statement seven months
09:19 later and she spoke with a lot of
09:22 certainty on the stand and in her walk
09:25 um that was one thing I
09:27 noticed and then there was the defense
10:30 redirect bald or excuse me the frence
10:34 the the defense cross forgive me I wrote
10:36 redirect I meant cross the cross exam is
10:38 next with the defense and the defense
10:41 attorney uh that was cross-examining her
10:44 was
10:45 Baldwin and Baldwin claims uh that Sarah
10:50 originally said mud 11 times in her
10:53 initial statement that she saw a man
10:55 covered in mud but she did not say blood
10:60 Sarah says to Baldwin that she
10:03 absolutely said blood maybe she was
10:06 mumbling or maybe she was nervous or
10:08 maybe police didn't write it down but
10:11 she definitely said mud and
10:14 blood Baldwin says that Sarah was
10:17 interviewed a couple of weeks later and
10:19 he says to her you did not say blood
10:22 only mud
10:25 Baldwin um Sarah claims after that Sarah
10:29 gets quite defensive of her statement
11:32 and quickly she claims that there is an
11:34 hour of missing video from that
11:36 interview I wrote next to that wait what
11:39 that's exactly what I was thinking I
11:41 wrote Sarah claims there's an hour of
11:43 missing video of her interview I wrote
11:45 wait what Baldwin asks her about missing
11:49 video and Sarah says all I know is there
11:52 is an hour of video from my interview I
11:54 have never been able to watch and I
11:56 don't know where it is but I know that I
11:59 said mud and
11:01 blood Baldwin doesn't acknowledge what
11:05 she just said and reiterates that in the
11:07 interview transcript the transcript that
11:10 he has with him she did not say blood
11:13 and she gives her the transcript to read
11:17 and Sarah reads the
11:19 transcript Sarah maintains after reading
11:22 the transcript that she said blood only
11:26 that she said blood and mud but the
11:28 transcript does not have blood Sarah
12:33 becomes quite defensive and she states
12:36 that her testimony has not
12:39 changed Baldwin then says well in your
12:42 third interview which was March of um I
12:48 didn't put the the year I assume 2017
12:51 but I did not put the year your third
12:53 interview you never say mud you only say
12:57 blood he claims
12:59 Sarah is confused and she says she has
12:02 never changed her story that she saw a
12:05 man with mud and
12:10 blood Sarah doesn't know why a third
12:14 interview would would only say covered
12:17 in blood and not mud too so now they're
12:20 saying that she only said blood in her
12:22 third interview and not mud she has no
12:25 idea why she reads the transcript on the
12:28 stand bald
13:30 says that Sarah has always said her
13:33 story hasn't change
13:41 wait oh so Sarah says that she has
13:45 always said that her story hasn't
13:48 changed and she has always been
13:51 consistent but in
13:53 2017 mud changed to blood Baldwin says
13:58 and
13:60 um and you also mentioned in in your
13:04 third interview that it looked a pig
13:06 looks like it had been slaughtered there
13:09 was so much
13:10 blood and then baldon asks and did you
13:13 help did you stop to help this guy if it
13:16 he was covered in blood she quickly said
13:19 in Quotes no I'm a woman I won't stop to
13:24 help a man exclamation point Baldwin
13:27 then States you originally stated it was
13:30 a tan coat and in a second interview you
14:33 said blue Sarah says I think I
14:36 originally saw a lot of mud and I
14:38 thought tan Baldwin States you said in a
14:42 second interview there was a sweater
14:44 under his coat there was a curl to his
14:48 hair she thought she explains that she
14:52 passed him and he did have a little bit
14:54 of hair sticking
14:56 out Baldwin States you also said that he
14:58 had feminine eyes now to
14:02 this um Sarah says she never rememb
14:05 saying that and she seems quite shocked
14:07 that someone suggests that she said that
14:10 the man had eminite eyes now I want to
14:13 point out that I don't think that's too
14:15 absurd um that I don't think that's a
14:18 bad thing we're referring to a man that
14:21 she saw that she believes is Bridge guy
14:23 we're at the trial of Richard Allen
14:25 Richard Allen has very large eyes so
14:29 when comes to what the the prosecution's
15:31 theory is that Richard Allen is Bridge
15:34 guy huge eyes are often related to being
15:38 feminine look at every Disney princess I
15:41 mean they're like this big right so I
15:44 don't know my point is I don't know if
15:46 Sarah saying that he has like had these
15:50 feminine looking eyes would hurt the
15:52 prosecution or this
15:55 trial um that's a side note for me I'm
15:58 going to continue
15:00 and Richard Allen is not being mentioned
15:02 at all during this testimony I'm the one
15:04 mentioning Richard Allen because he has
15:06 these very large BD eyes have mentioned
15:09 them so I'll get back to the testimony
15:11 just a side note for me because the
15:14 Baldwin bringing up that Sarah said that
15:17 he had these feminine looking eyes
15:18 really seemed to upset Sarah she said
15:22 that she never said that um Sarah says
15:26 that she never remembers saying that and
15:29 Baldwin asks her to refresh her memory
16:34 and and to read the transcript where she
16:36 says this and she
16:38 refuses that's how strongly she feels
16:40 she is now refusing to read the
16:43 transcript Baldwin explains that Sarah's
16:46 phone pinged it's Verizon but you but
16:49 then he says you claimed you didn't have
16:51 a phone but that your phone pinged Sarah
16:54 speaking to the juries says that her
16:57 phone pinged at some point that at some
16:59 point she had her
16:01 phone Baldwin says you saw him though
16:05 for just a mere second this man Sarah
16:09 says 30 seconds leading up to him as I
16:13 drove and then passing him she explains
16:17 why she saw him for 30 seconds because
16:19 as she's driving down this country road
16:21 she sees him in the distance she gets
16:23 closer she sees him she
16:27 passes um baldw sort of says but you
16:30 said that you really just saw him in an
17:32 instant and she said 30 seconds and then
17:35 she explained why and she said an
17:37 instant to you can be a mere second to
17:40 me I saw him for 30
17:42 seconds
17:44 um then he kind of says well look um you
17:48 know you're just passing him she said
17:50 you know yeah I was 100 feet from him I
17:52 was 50 feet from him when I passing him
17:53 I'm two you know I'm this I'm two feet
17:56 from him so she speaks to the jury and
17:59 answered to him saying you said you only
17:00 saw him for a mere second and she's
17:02 saying at least 30 seconds she speaks to
17:04 the jury and she says I saw him I
17:07 couldn't tell how fast he was walking
17:10 maybe he was a man in his 30s or 40s he
17:12 was covered in mud and blood I saw
17:17 him
17:20 um she says that she saw a hat on this
17:25 person and oh so this is the redirect
17:28 now now the prosecution is back so
17:29 that's how she concludes with Baldwin
18:31 and now the redirect is back and the
18:35 prosecution um asks her more about what
18:38 she saw she said that she seemed to have
18:39 a pullover sweater with what she thought
18:42 was a tan hood that this man was wearing
18:44 a pullover sweater with a tan Hood she
18:46 saw a hat on this person she admits that
18:50 she only knows really about baseball
18:52 caps and it was an odd hat it was a
18:55 weird hat he was hunched over it was a
18:58 weird hat and her mind is now tainted
18:02 and she admits that she cannot describe
18:04 the Hat she actually made a joke that
18:06 she said that she has looked at so many
18:07 hats in trying to decipher what hat this
18:10 man is wearing that she felt it was like
18:12 Tinder for hats just swiping and swiping
18:15 she admits her mind is now tainted she's
18:18 not going to be able to figure out what
18:20 hat this person was wearing but that he
18:23 certainly had a hat
18:25 on but then there's a question by the
18:27 prosecution and ask her well could you
19:30 have mistaken any hair or curly hair for
19:33 a hat and she says possibly meaning she
19:37 thought that this man had curly hair and
19:40 they're saying could that have been a
19:41 hat you saw and not his hair and she
19:43 said
19:45 possibly the redirect continues and
19:47 she's talking to the
19:49 jury did you indicate in your last in
19:53 your first interview did you oh so so
19:56 the prosecution is asking Sarah did you
19:58 indicate in your first interview that
19:60 you saw a man with mud and blood Sarah
19:02 says yes in your second interview she's
19:06 asked did you see a man with mud or
19:10 blood and uh she there are in this
19:15 moment many many objections by Baldwin
19:18 I've never seen the the defense have so
19:22 many objections to this questioning by
19:24 the prosecution objection objection he's
19:27 saying it needs to be rephrased he's
19:28 saying they're leading
19:30 um most of the some of the objections
20:32 are sustained they were just like in
20:33 order boom boom boom and uh the last one
20:36 was overruled and the prosecution is
20:39 able to continue in your second
20:41 interview did you see say you saw a man
20:45 with mud and blood Sarah says yes in
20:48 your third interview the prosecution
20:50 asks did you say you saw a man with mud
20:53 and blood on him she says yes and now we
20:56 have recross oh there's more recross
20:58 Baldwin gets back up Baldwin pushes that
20:02 she said mud 13 times in her first
20:05 interview and she did not say blood and
20:08 she did not say blood the second
20:10 time you know what she said to that she
20:12 said in quotes are we doing this again
20:16 she said that to Baldwin she reiterates
20:19 an hour of video is missing and that's
20:23 not on her that's exactly what she said
20:24 she goes there's an hour of video
20:25 missing and it's not on me she said but
20:29 she Sayes she said mud and
21:34 blood the jurors have questions for
21:37 Sarah they asked what her age was in
21:40 2017 that's when she states she's 35
21:42 years old and so she realizes she was 26
21:46 she believes she said 26 27 she settled
21:49 on
21:49 26 how wide was the road wer asks she
21:54 explains that it's a country road so
21:56 narrow she says small enough sometimes
21:58 that you have to pull
21:59 over how did you know it was blood
21:02 someone asks her she says that the color
21:05 and what it seemed like it just looked
21:07 like blood how close were you uh jur
21:11 asked and she said three feet away
21:13 Baldwin had issues with her saying three
21:16 feet away that's when um he stood up and
21:19 he said I have a question after these
21:21 answers that you said that you were
21:23 originally when you originally testified
21:25 you said that you were 20t away from him
21:28 she says she looks at bald and she says
21:30 I passed him at first it's 20 feet and
22:33 then 10 then it's 3 feet as she's
22:35 passing I write she gets very defensive
22:39 like to a point where it wasn't a good
22:41 look in my opinion so inserting my
22:43 opinion here she was so defensive it was
22:45 not the best look and at this point she
22:48 says in quotes I didn't take a ruler and
22:52 measure I was driving but she says as
22:56 she passed him she was probably three
22:58 feet away
22:01 and that was the test of
22:04 Sarah and that was my water bottle
22:08 falling we're going to get to the next
22:11 witness Dr Roland cor theed forensic
22:15 pathologist who performed the autopsies
22:17 before I do that I'm just going to check
22:19 chat and see how everyone's doing thank
22:22 you everyone for your
23:56 is that is my is my sound back
23:00 now that's exactly why I want to take a
23:08 break I'm going to make sure that I'm
23:12 good am I back okay that's exactly why I
23:16 wanted to take a break so to say what I
23:18 was just sharing things
23:21 are about to get heavy here so yeah just
23:25 taking a break making sure everyone's
23:27 good um
23:29 um before we continue thank you everyone
24:32 for the super chats I see them hello to
24:35 our new members thank you Amy mix buuny
24:39 thank you for being here thank you
24:43 everyone
24:45 um all
24:47 right is there still no sound or are
24:50 some people just behind some people
24:52 might be behind you guys are saying
24:54 since you've been
24:57 live yeah I can slow chat let me get
24:60 chat slowed right
24:02 now we do have a lot of people here
24:04 don't
24:11 we okay I'm slowing chat at this moment
25:34 okay all right I'm also going to check
25:37 and make sure that I got this last
25:41 um okay I have the last sketch I was
25:44 looking
25:45 for so we are about to talk about hard
25:50 things autopsy photos of Abby and
25:55 Libby that we saw today
25:01 and as I stated in my lunch live this
25:04 case is just brutal this
25:09 crime thank you everyone all
25:15 right okay new witness Dr Roland core
25:21 KR he is a semi-retired forensic
25:25 pathologist he's performed a he's just
25:28 per he performs autopsies that's what he
26:30 does he is wearing a suit I have to
26:33 share what he looks like he is wearing a
26:35 suit with a red tie and he has bright
26:38 white hair thinning a little bit on top
26:41 but he he makes up for it with his big
26:43 white eyebrows and his big white
26:46 mustache he has these darker eyes and uh
26:50 honestly he looks like uh he just walked
26:53 out of a Monopoly board game or a Clue
26:56 board game take your pick whether it's
26:58 the Monopoly man or Colonel Mustard he
26:00 was just like this
26:02 classic um I think you get the picture
26:06 um
26:07 just anyway very distinguished looking
26:12 gentleman he had a very soft voice uh
26:16 with a whistle sort of like the Gopher
26:18 on Winnie the Pooh um I don't know if
26:20 you know that character on Disney's
26:22 Winnie the Pooh there's a gopher
26:24 character and he sort of whistles as he
26:26 talks and it was similar to that and
26:29 sharing this because he was difficult to
27:32 hear and we were all straining our ears
27:35 it got better after lunch but it was
27:37 very difficult we were all leaning
27:39 forward I was doing this um Family
27:42 allegedly complained and said we can't
27:44 hear they said there was nothing they
27:46 could do but after lunch he did get up
27:48 with his pointer at the at the big
27:50 screen to as we were all looking at the
27:52 photographs these heartbreaking
27:53 photographs and it did get better and
27:56 I've certainly compared notes with my
27:57 neighbors and others so this is what we
27:02 have and the photos were very clear and
27:04 so we saw the
27:07 photos he explained his detailed
27:10 background for a very very long time
27:13 which makes sense when it comes to an
27:15 expert witness because what the defense
27:17 is going to try to do with this witness
27:19 is make him not look like he's this you
27:23 know professional or expert as he is
27:25 they're going to try to minimize uh his
27:28 expertise and so they spent a very large
28:32 amount of time sharing his expertise and
28:34 his training and again it was very quiet
28:37 I did not take notes during this it took
28:39 a long time and I understand why they
28:41 had to dot their eyes and cross their
28:42 teeth with what an expert he is he
28:44 explained that in his career he's done
28:48 probably
28:50 7,700 to 7,800 autopsies he's been an
28:54 expert witness in multiple States
28:55 Montana Indiana Illinois he's
28:59 testified uh for the defense and the
28:02 prosecution or whoever sends him a
28:04 subpoena which he says is usually the
28:06 prosecution but uh he'll testify forever
28:09 it's just typically the prosecution that
28:10 asks him to testify in
28:13 court and uh he's being handed now the
28:16 states exhibits when he was contacted on
28:19 Valentine's Day 2017 214 2017 he was
28:23 called and he was asked to perform the
28:25 autopsies of Abby and Libby on Fe
28:28 February
28:29 15th after he's handed the state
29:32 exhibits he's asked if he recognizes
29:34 these images and he looks at them and
29:37 says that he does recognize the images
29:39 that he's looking
29:41 at they start with Abby um they share
29:45 her height and weight um Abby was
29:48 actually under 100 pounds and 64 Ines
29:50 both Abby and Libby we learn today were
29:52 the same height both 5
29:54 foot4 um which I mentioned um so that
29:58 that's how tall they
29:59 were we start to see the photos of Abby
29:03 um in her clothing he explains that
29:06 there was blood on her hooded sweatshirt
29:08 and that she was wearing again a deli
29:11 swimming sweatshirt it was I learned
29:14 Kelsey Germans sweatshirt that was in
29:17 the back of the car that um Libby had
29:21 put on and was wearing earlier in the
29:23 day or allegedly wearing earlier in the
29:25 day and uh but Abby was found in this
29:28 sweatshirt
29:30 deceased she had a sports bra on she had
30:33 a pink they refer to it as a pink
30:35 camisol we saw it it was more of a pink
30:37 tank top and then she had a sports bra
30:41 and she had actually another bra under
30:44 her sports bra I had heard that I wasn't
30:47 completely clear but we did see
30:48 photographs of that they they took off
30:50 all the layers one by one and so she had
30:52 a a bra on as well as a sports bra and
30:56 then she had jeans on which which um
30:00 were Libby's
30:03 jeans external on her neck um I'm going
30:07 to pull up the sketch now so I'm going
30:08 to share with you that I was sitting
30:11 next to she actually is also a friend of
30:14 mine and she is an artist and while we
30:17 took notes she sketched the entire
30:20 time um let me share
30:24 this and we are going to pull up these
30:27 sketches
30:29 of
31:36 Abby and sorry forgive me I'm looking
31:38 for
31:41 Abby
31:48 okay can everybody see
31:52 that um by the way my friend um who is
31:56 doing this as a service
31:58 um I thanked her and I I asked if I
31:01 could support her business she's a
31:03 freelance artist she actually said no
31:05 because she's doing this on behalf of
31:07 Abby and liby but I'm going to say that
31:08 she does have an Instagram account at
31:11 hey Christina MAAC
31:14 um I'm very grateful that she did this
31:17 today because uh no one's ever going to
31:20 see these photos necessarily or or we
31:21 don't know but she this is a very good
31:23 rendition of what we saw when it comes
31:25 to aby's wound
31:29 so this shows on the um I'll read to you
32:34 you know what while you look at this I
32:36 will read to you what I
32:38 heard so there was an external um it was
32:43 5 cm in length and it was so deep it
32:46 caused holes in the in the muscle fibers
32:49 the we're referring to the single
32:51 incision across of aby's neck and it was
32:54 two to two and a half inches wide the
32:56 muscle tissue was cut
32:59 they refer to the essay kit for Abby by
32:03 the way as well and
32:07 um explained everything that took place
32:10 in the essay kit I won't go over that in
32:12 detail you can Google that if you're
32:14 curious what goes into an essay kit um
32:17 they did not see any visible
32:20 injuries on the essay on the on the kit
32:25 and it so by that he means visible
32:29 trauma
33:31 but I appreciate that Dr core said this
33:34 it does not mean that there wasn't
33:36 sexual contact he just did not indic
33:40 this kit just did not indicate injury or
33:43 trauma it did not have any
33:47 abrasions um so that that is what he
33:50 explained and I will just jump fast
33:52 forward and that's exactly what was said
33:54 about Libby's essay kit as well so you
33:57 can know but I do appreciate that Dr K
33:01 stated it does not mean that there
33:03 wasn't sexual contact and I just want to
33:07 point out which I always do there was
33:09 certainly essay involved because making
33:12 two miners take off their clothes one of
33:14 them being found
33:15 nude that is assault
33:19 um
33:21 so just wanted to share
33:24 that um
33:29 see there were really no other major
34:31 abrasions or lacerations or wounds
34:35 besides her one wound in her neck um the
34:40 Stab Wound was actually you know I put
34:43 question marks by this so I'm not going
34:44 to say it I'm going to need to confirm
34:45 that I don't want to start any um
34:47 conspiracy so I'm going to skip that I
34:49 put question mark and to ask first and I
34:51 never did so um I'll jump forward this
34:55 is there were no other injuries Beyond
34:57 her neck there were no defensive wounds
34:01 and there were no blunt force trauma
34:04 wounds there is a speculation that Abby
34:08 was
34:09 constrained there was a faint ligature
34:12 mark across the
34:14 face it could have either been tape but
34:18 there was no tape residue it could have
34:20 also been
34:21 cloth now the sketch artist Christina in
34:24 the middle you can see that there's a
34:26 line on her chin I wrote my own drawing
34:29 and he pointed out the faint lines on
35:32 the screen that he believed were the
35:36 were the possible uh constraints meaning
35:39 on her face and he pointed out these two
35:41 lines and they were very um parallel to
35:45 one another and they were here and here
35:49 and I actually think that middle has one
35:51 of the lines and she labeled it a
35:52 superficial wound but I actually think
35:54 he was pointing out the faint there were
35:56 some superficial wounds but I think he
35:58 was pointing out the faint lines there
35:60 he explained that the lines went right
35:03 um oh sorry it was here and here and he
35:05 did not believe that this constraint
35:08 would have covered her mouth that it
35:11 would have been below her mouth and
35:13 again either being constrained with tape
35:17 or cloth and there was no tape residue
35:21 like with duct tape that would be clear
35:23 that there was duct tape but right
35:26 across here
36:31 um the
36:32 laceration was uh it was a sideways
36:36 Direction and he said it was most likely
36:39 right to left oh and sorry it was on the
36:42 left side of her neck so um right to
36:47 left on the left side of her
36:50 neck and then um the prosecution States
36:54 we're going to come back to Abby and
36:56 we're going to jump to
36:59 Liberty and as they jump quickly to
36:02 Liberty um to Libby he explains that
36:06 three major vessels were cut including
36:09 the jugular vein and then the judge
36:12 actually interrupts and asks the council
36:14 to approach and after quite a while
36:17 nobody's really quite sure why the judge
36:19 has asked councel to approach the jury
36:21 is then told they're going to
36:23 break before anything else happens and
36:26 we all of a sudden have a minute break
36:28 in
36:29 court um this is when someone allegedly
37:32 told me that family or others were
37:33 complaining in the courtroom that you
37:34 couldn't hear anything you could hardly
37:37 hear this gentleman um Dr core and the
37:40 judge explains after everybody comes
37:42 back that the jurors and important
37:44 parties can hear she hopes the media who
37:46 has the best seats in the House can
37:48 relate info if anybody can't hear it but
37:50 she cannot improve the
37:53 sound
37:56 um and so we continue on with liberty
37:01 and um I'll show you my own sketch that
37:06 well no let's just pull this up
37:09 um oh actually you know what this is the
37:12 moment I knew there was a reason I
37:13 stayed on Abby they started to go to Li
37:15 they started to go to Libby's autopsy
37:17 but then they actually went back to Abby
37:21 so then we stuck to Abby so it was
37:22 almost like this false alarm we're like
37:24 we're going to come back to Abby let's
37:25 talk about Libby and then we had like
37:27 these Libby and then um we quickly went
38:30 back to Abby and so this was
38:36 um a chart I made of Abby let's see if I
38:39 can hold it
38:41 up they explained the veins
38:44 there um and they showed that and that's
38:48 so that's where the cut is so the
38:50 blue it was actually a graph on the on
38:53 the screen the veins and then the cut
38:57 and that was what I
38:03 drew
38:07 um and this is actually I'll show you
38:09 this this is what I drew with the
38:11 possible
38:13 restraint um because he actually pointed
38:16 it out and this was an actual photograph
38:19 uh a closeup of Abby and I drew this
38:26 um and there are two black faint lines I
39:30 realize that I'm small let me pull this
39:33 up bigger I just realized
39:38 okay so those were the faint lines that
39:40 were pointed out on this photograph of
39:42 her this was a real photograph we were
39:44 looking at and the faint line could be a
39:47 cloth or duct tape but no tape residue
39:49 lines below mouth so mouth not
39:52 covered and because I just made myself
39:54 bigger I'll show you again this other
39:56 chart I made of Abby
39:59 um those were her veins and that was
39:02 where her cut
39:14 was
39:17 um this is now where we turn to a photo
39:22 and looked at aby's backside and there
39:27 is a sketch
39:28 of that as well and so I'm going to
40:30 bring that up
40:33 um so let me
40:46 switch this was a photograph that we saw
40:50 um it was titled lighter mortise which
40:54 uh if you Google you look up it's
40:56 actually um liver mortise and it's the
40:59 pooling of blood This Is How They
40:02 explain what we're looking at here on
40:04 the backs side of
40:08 Abby um the way her backside looks meant
40:12 to Dr core that she had been dead at
40:14 least 10 hours if not
40:18 longer and this is also um where we see
40:24 that there is debris on her back meaning
40:27 that that she was likely laying nude on
40:30 the ground at some point because that
41:33 was under her
41:34 sweatshirt and the places where it's
41:37 pink and red was where there was
41:39 pressure between the part of her body
41:41 and the ground and where the blood
41:43 pulled um and the blood pulled of course
41:46 also where there was clothing she had
41:48 two bras on she had a regular black bra
41:51 as well as a sports bra and so there
41:54 were going to be pressure points there
41:02 um I will go
41:03 back to this
41:09 one and um I'll explain we're going to
41:13 get to Liberty now so I'll just explain
41:14 a few things on this sketch um there was
41:18 blood on her arm but they explained that
41:21 was after pulling off her hoodie that is
41:24 what her pink tank top looked like I'm
41:26 starting on this side I'm starting on
41:28 I'm starting I don't know what side
42:30 right or left that you guys are seeing
42:33 um and then her one gash and then they
42:35 took off one by one those are her two
42:38 bras and some superficial wounds and
42:42 because the wound was
42:44 gaping the doctor says that he stretched
42:47 it to measure just how long it was after
42:51 he cleaned it out um and so it was quite
42:55 long um over two
42:00 inches all right now we'll get
42:04 to Libby and I do have uh sketches of
42:08 Libby let me see where I want to start
42:11 Libby is also 64 in
42:15 5'4 the first photo that they showed was
42:18 prior to cleaning her body it was
42:23 heartbreaking um and I did note that
42:26 Kathy Allen um Richard Allen's wife
42:28 looked so sad during this moment um and
43:34 Ra's uh Richard Allen's sister had an
43:37 arm around Cathy so Richard Allen's
43:40 sister was there Richard Allen's mother
43:43 and Kathy
43:44 Allen Richard Allen was looking at the
43:47 photos I couldn't see his expression
43:49 because it was you know he was in front
43:51 of me but he was looking at the photos
43:53 and sometimes he would take
43:56 notes uh um I feel like there was
43:59 something else I saw here and I realized
43:01 I needed to share something
43:04 else
43:09 um first
43:12 pick prior to cleaning the body oh I
43:14 know what it was I want to say there has
43:16 been a lot of questions about Abby and
43:20 uh how much blood because there was a
43:21 lot more blood on Libby at the crime
43:23 scene and there's been speculation that
43:25 Abby didn't really bleed when they
43:27 showed the autopsy they explained how
43:30 there was a lot of blood on the white
44:33 sheet behind her as they lifted her and
44:36 undressed her so um there was
44:40 certainly blood with Abby it was just
44:43 more um Consolidated in one spot there
44:45 was only one injury to
44:49 Abby all right
44:53 um let me see this sketch
44:58 okay
44:59 so Libby was um Libby had a lot more
44:03 injuries so I'm going to share the
44:05 sketch
44:18 um
44:22 um let's see is that better
44:28 so this is Libby you know I'm going to
45:30 make this big and just get me off of the
45:33 screen for a second so you can see this
45:36 if I can figure out how to do
45:39 that okay I don't want to cover any of
45:42 it up I I agree that her injuries did
45:45 seem very personal so these were all
45:48 photographs they were actually
45:49 photographs that we
45:51 saw so we'll start you know what I'm
45:53 going to make it larger we'll start with
45:55 this um this was the first let's look at
45:59 that photo really
45:00 quickly um so the first photo was prior
45:04 to cleaning her body and there was blood
45:08 just
45:09 everywhere and um the second photo was a
45:13 closeup of the first and second wound in
45:16 her neck and it probably
45:19 looked like
45:23 this and um noting and they noted that
45:26 there was a tag in her wounds
46:31 so um the tag in her wounds if you look
46:34 here and you see so let me just see how
46:37 you guys are seeing this let me make
46:39 sure that this looks how I want to look
46:41 okay so if you see this and you see that
46:45 on the so look at the right wound and
46:48 how the
46:49 skin um kind of comes down in that like
46:53 he referred to that as a
46:55 tag and
46:58 um in that tag he says technically the
46:03 one wound is two wounds at at the very
46:06 least because what it means is it
46:08 indicates a second pass of the weapon or
46:11 he would refer to it as an instrument or
46:13 a sharp object meaning um that these two
46:17 wounds overlapped and he was he was um
46:22 there were multiple passes with the
46:24 weapon I'll call it a weapon it killed
46:26 them um
46:28 um putting my phone on do not disturb
47:31 forgive
47:34 me so
47:37 um
47:39 yeah sorry guys
47:42 um put my game face back on
47:46 here there um they explained some
47:50 superficial wounds on her body um so
47:54 I'll go I'll Zoom back out now
47:00 um okay I'll explain the superficial
47:03 wounds I there were there were many
47:05 things to sketch here and I don't know
47:08 if she Drew The Superficial wounds so
47:10 I'll just explain the superficial wounds
47:12 here I am everyone um they pointed out
47:16 that um there was an incision in her
47:18 chest just below her shoulder like sort
47:20 of like between her chest and her
47:22 shoulder blade down here I don't know
47:24 what side but on one of these sides I
47:25 don't have the picture front of me there
47:28 was a tiny abrasion just below her neck
48:31 and a superficial superficial abrasions
48:34 in her
48:36 neck um there were multiple tags on each
48:40 there were tags on each wound there were
48:42 multiple passes on each neck wound so
48:46 with Abby there was one pass and one
48:50 wound with Libby there were multiple
48:53 wounds and each wound had multiple
48:56 passes and and guys they were large I
48:58 even wrote here honestly this is me
48:00 trying to write I'm just going to show
48:02 you my attempt so you can see the
48:05 differences and
48:07 um I'll show you and I just wrote next
48:10 to it so deep and so bad I think we were
48:13 all just in
48:14 shock
48:17 um this was my attempt I just wrote so
48:21 deep and so bad
48:27 it really really
48:29 was oh and this is when I wrote I wrote
49:32 this I said Libby's family is watching
49:35 Richard Allen's family is watching
49:36 Richard Allen is taking notes and and
49:38 watching and I wrote the pics they're so
49:40 graphic this is shocking I wrote wounds
49:43 massive like I was clearly taking it in
49:45 and
49:47 just four or five huge wounds is what
49:50 they
49:52 stated pix graphic that's sort of just
49:55 how I take my notes in there
49:01 and by the way this is not easy for me
49:02 to talk about I'm not doing this
49:05 for I just feel like it's so important
49:08 to know what these girls went through
49:11 and to have the truth because there's
49:12 been such a lack of transparency I am
49:14 not enjoying doing this and being the
49:16 messenger right now I hope you all know
49:18 but I also know that if Libby's if the
49:20 victim's family are in there watching
49:22 this everybody should know what these
49:23 two girls went through so that's you
49:25 know I guess I just want to share my
49:27 purpose really quickly too because this
49:28 is not easy for me but I also know that
50:31 nobody else can be in not everyone can
50:33 be in the courtroom there's no audio
50:35 there's no video so I'm just I'm just
50:38 trying to be honest and be the messenger
50:40 here
50:42 so I will not forget
50:45 today all right game face back
50:49 on let's keep looking at
50:53 this um okay so then he explained the
50:57 closeup pick of a pattern and Christina
50:02 has done a great sketch of that
50:07 example
50:09 okay so he shows a photo of one of the
50:13 wounds and points out what that what
50:15 seems likely to be a seated pattern and
50:19 he calls it a seated pattern multiple
50:23 times um but it is confusing because he
50:26 keeps saying serated pattern but he's
50:28 never saying that a serated knife was
51:30 used or anything like that he actually
51:33 as he calls it a serated pattern he he's
51:35 also seeming to say that that doesn't
51:37 necessarily mean the weapon was
51:41 serated um he also refers at one point
51:43 to like more like abrasions I have
51:44 question marks here I'm I I remind
51:47 myself to ask my fellow seatmates what
51:49 they're seeing but I certainly see a
51:52 serated edge pattern and as you can see
51:54 here in this really good sketch that's
51:57 what we're seeing right on the edge of
51:59 one of the wounds it's serated like
51:02 there's also a gaping wound above the
51:06 serated pattern that's not really drawn
51:10 here in detail so let's see
51:13 here so there's clearly multiple wounds
51:17 in her neck as you can see here right on
51:20 this picture the sketch only shows the
51:23 serrated but above it you could see the
51:27 start of another big gaping wound like
52:32 it was really large on this um hold on
52:38 here right
52:40 there and
52:42 um this is
52:44 when uh Dr core brought up and
52:47 speculated something that he had been
52:49 thinking about after his reports were
52:52 done and he said that so again it's not
52:56 shown here but it was next it was a spot
52:58 a gaping wound next to this serated
52:01 pattern um okay and I'll I'll show you
52:04 these because this actually kind of is
52:06 more like these
52:07 gaping wounds
52:12 um well let's just look at it all right
52:14 okay there you guys
52:19 go the gaping wound above the serated
52:22 line is another wound that Dr K
52:25 speculates another piece piece of the
52:27 knife was used or put into this large
53:31 wound like the handle going too
53:35 far he explained that he had been
53:38 thinking about it and that in his garage
53:40 in Dr cor's garage he has a box cutter
53:43 and he had been looking at his box
53:44 cutter and a box cutter has a plastic
53:47 thumb grip to keep it from
53:49 slipping and the more that Dr core has
53:53 thought about it since his
53:55 report the more he's realized that it
53:57 could be the side of a box cutter that
53:01 went too far into this gaping wound of
53:04 Libby's
53:11 neck
53:19 um abies they go into this and this was
53:23 hard to hear but he was asked about
53:27 symptoms of what would happen from their
53:29 wounds before they
54:32 died he explained that aby's symptom
54:35 from her
54:37 wound
54:40 um would be
54:42 pain
54:44 bleeding and then Panic sets in
54:46 depending on the person and then the
54:49 heart rate tries to compensate for the
54:51 loss of blood and the blood pressure
54:53 starts dropping and then the body goes
54:56 into shock
54:57 there's lost
54:59 Consciousness she is not sustaining
54:01 normal function and the brain shuts
54:04 down it's asked how long would it take
54:08 for Abby to
54:11 die they say if she was still sitting up
54:14 versus if she was sitting still versus
54:16 upright it would be
54:18 different at least 10 5 to 10 minutes
54:21 maybe longer depending on how still she
54:24 was in terms of injuries to Liberty it
54:27 would be the same symptoms the blood
54:30 loss because of her injuries would be
55:31 more rapid and the stages of shock more
55:34 rapid that's where then he refers to the
55:38 hands with blood that we had seen in
55:40 photographs today and earlier when we
55:42 saw crime scene photos both of Libby's
55:49 hands were covered in blood both of them
55:52 and I had speculated with you that I
55:54 wondered if she had grabbed her injury
55:57 Dr core said as much he said that he
55:60 believed that the hands with blood on
55:02 Liberty were probably her initial
55:05 reaction it would be the initial
55:06 reaction of many people to apply
55:09 pressure and stop the
55:11 bleeding he said it could take 5 to 10
55:13 minutes but probably five minutes with
55:16 Libby since three vessels were
55:18 cut he estimates that the time of death
55:21 for both girls was 40 41 hours before
55:25 the autopsy was done done on February
55:28 15th well to be more clear the autopsy
56:31 was done on
56:34 February oh sorry
56:36 February February 15th at 800 a.m. in
56:40 the
56:41 morning and again on Libby there were
56:44 four wounds on the neck five maybe five
56:48 they were similar in size to aby's but
56:50 they had multiple passes and this is
56:53 again where they reiterated there was
56:55 nothing visible in the SA
56:57 kit but um that doesn't mean that there
56:01 wasn't
56:04 sa so then we get to a redirect
56:08 I'll take these
56:13 down and uh there is a redirect with
56:16 Rosie or I keep calling it a redirect
56:18 it's a cross a cross exam I don't know
56:20 why I'm referring to as a redirect then
56:22 that concludes the prosecution's
56:24 questioning of Dr core and and then
56:27 there is a cross exam with Dr not Dr
57:31 Rosie with attorney Rosie and Rosie is
57:34 claiming that Dr core said he couldn't
57:36 be sure of the time of death so that
57:39 he's surprised you know that he's
57:41 stating a time of death
57:43 now he also said that during the uh
57:47 deposition Rosie is saying that during
57:49 the deposition Dr core said he could not
57:52 tell uh what weapon was used on Abby
57:57 Dr Court answers and saysyou right I
57:59 said it was a sharp instrument but I
57:02 certainly cannot say with certainty what
57:04 that sharp instrument
57:07 is um question by the defense says well
57:10 you said that this injury could be
57:12 caused by anything from a pocket knife
57:14 to a kitchen knife but you said nothing
57:17 in your deposition back then about a box
57:20 cutter Dr cor says correct explaining
57:24 that he thought about it later the dent
57:27 says
58:33 um I'm going to skip that because I'm
58:35 not certain I have the right facts there
58:36 I don't want to start
58:38 anything I'll go back with all these
58:40 questions and and I I'll tell you
58:41 tomorrow during my lunch live
58:46 um they explained that they did collect
58:49 um or try to collect anything around
58:51 fingernails but essentially the
58:52 fingernails were so short especially on
58:54 Abby that it was almost impossible she
58:57 was likely a
58:58 nailbiter there was
58:01 um there's a question from the defense
58:04 about cerebral edema a swelling of the
58:06 blood and the Brain uh with um Libby and
58:11 Dr core explains that Miss German's case
58:13 was
58:15 mild um and then the defense said but in
58:19 all of this autopsy report there is
58:21 nothing to say who did this is that
58:25 correct and Dr said
58:28 correct now Rosie is actually getting
59:30 pretty feisty with this expert witness
59:32 Dr
59:34 core and Rosie starts saying that Dr
59:37 core should have come to his office with
59:40 this new information that there was a
59:42 February deposition where he never
59:43 mentioned a box cutter he never
59:45 mentioned his new thoughts about this
59:47 handle of a box cutter and why did he
59:49 not come to Dr Rosie's office and and
59:52 the defense's office and share this core
59:55 claims Dr core claims in response to
59:58 that that he has not changed his
59:60 deposition that he has not changed
59:02 anything that would make him need to go
59:04 to the office of the defense and tell
59:06 him the only thing that is he's thought
59:08 about now is he has a theory about a box
59:11 cutter due to seeing one in his garage
59:15 Rosie says well how many times have you
59:17 talked to the prosecution since the
59:19 deposition in February Dr cor says a few
59:22 times Rosie says but you didn't add a
59:25 supplemental report after sharing this
59:27 with the prosecution Dr cor says that
60:30 happens if I change something and I have
60:33 not changed
60:35 anything Rosie then says but you sat
60:37 down with a reporter two years ago had
60:39 coffee with
60:41 them uh Dr core says did I say Dr Rosie
60:45 attorney Rosie Dr core Dr core says that
60:49 is
60:50 correct now we have a redirect with the
60:52 prosecution Dr um lutrell and he asks
60:57 how many knives do you think were
60:00 used and his answer which confused me
60:03 because I was expecting multiple knives
60:05 at this point one seated another the
60:07 multiple weapons his answer is that he
60:10 believed there could just be one uh
60:13 weapon or knife that was used question
60:17 uh by the prosecution are you sure that
60:20 the tags and artifacts in Libby's wound
60:22 doesn't mean that there was more than
60:23 one
60:24 instrument Dr Cor answer is not
60:27 necessarily so in other words not
61:30 necessarily doesn't mean he is certain
61:32 there could be one there could be
61:35 more after this concludes for the first
61:37 time ever there are no jury
61:42 questions and that concluded the
61:49 autopsies um okay before we get to the
61:51 next witness checking how is timing on
61:54 chat
61:59 um
61:02 I will just do I need to was do I need
61:07 to um do I need to slow down the chat or
61:11 are we good thank you so much Chelsea
61:14 thank you to everyone
61:17 here oh my goodness thank you everyone
62:31 um I have my phone on do not disturb but
62:34 that's my husband who overrides the Do
62:36 Not Disturb so forgive the sound
62:41 there all
62:43 right um thank you everyone we'll go to
62:45 these
62:47 later um I see a lot of questions so I
62:50 want you to know that I will go back to
62:51 them let's jump to the next witness um
62:55 the last witness for the day
62:59 so the next witness is Christopher Cecil
62:02 first sergeant
62:03 Cecil he is part of the Indiana crimes
62:06 against children task force and he's uh
62:09 he shared his CV and he's actually
62:11 graduating this year he will be part of
62:13 the Cyber crimes investigation unit and
62:15 he has been involved in hundreds of
62:18 cases in 2019 he was a computer forensic
62:21 examiner for the Indiana State Police he
62:24 had done extractions
62:26 on uh a lot of extractions to let them
62:30 see the full contents of an Apple device
63:33 he used a new gray Key System to get all
63:37 raw data that looks for lost or deleted
63:39 data and he um and we're now referring
63:42 to Libby's cell phone or her iPhone 6
63:47 the gray key is a program that was used
63:50 this is not sellbrite that was one that
63:52 another one that Indiana State Police
63:54 used but this is gray key is actually
63:57 used it's different to get information
63:60 out of the phone and then other programs
63:03 make that informational information
63:05 readable it includes things like dates
63:07 times texts photos Etc on February 13
63:12 2017 he took uh he didn't take the phone
63:15 on that date but he he took Libby's
63:18 phone and he looked specifically at that
63:20 date because he knew that Libby and Abby
63:23 were on the Monon high bridge that day
63:25 and recorded Who police believed to be
63:27 the abductor on the bridge they were
64:30 trying to establish a timeline and
64:32 compare the data for investigators here
64:35 is a report now that showed up on the
64:37 screen of a summary of His findings it
64:39 was an Apple iPhone 6 and there were at
64:43 least two people that often used this
64:45 phone Libby and
64:47 Abby there was actually he knew this
64:50 because of user accounts and information
64:52 for both girls stored in the phone
64:54 including iclouds and pass passwords
64:56 both of the girls shared this phone
64:58 that's just how close they
64:00 were the Apple health application was
64:04 page nine of this report and we're going
64:06 to go over it and it is really
64:08 interesting so they explained that the
64:10 Apple health application tracks and is
64:12 always tracking and working in the
64:14 background when it comes to steps it
64:16 could determine steps that were walked
64:17 or ran or uh the value of what kind of
64:21 thing elevation everything time date
64:24 steps distance Etc
64:27 so on 213
64:30 2017 there were 100 excuse me there were
65:37 1,682 steps recorded between 131 and 208
65:43 p.m. on that day now as I read this
65:46 let's put in something that helps at
65:48 2:13 so the date is 2113 and the time
65:51 that the video of bridgeguy was taken
65:53 was also 2113 so just remember 213
65:56 that's the time I have to like put
65:58 everything around that time so just
65:59 remember the video on the
65:00 bridge that says down the hill was time
65:04 stamped at
65:05 213 um so going back to this at so
65:09 between 1:30 meaning starting before
65:10 they're even dropped off because um
65:14 Kelsey actually drops them off let's see
65:16 I can find this I have Kelsey is on
65:19 surveillance camera dropping them off at
65:23 the bridge at
65:24 1:49 p.m.
65:26 just so I'm just going to help you guys
65:28 okay so Kelsey drops Abby liby off at
66:30 the bridge at 149 at the mir's
66:33 entrance and
66:35 then at uh at 2:13 p.m. is when we hear
66:41 down the hill so just keep those two
66:45 times in your brain while I share these
66:47 other times from the Apple health
66:49 application so between
66:52 131 so before they even are going to the
66:54 bridge and 208 there are 1,682 steps
66:59 taken
66:01 um there
66:07 is forgive
66:13 me I just want to make sure I get this
66:17 right this was difficult at first and we
66:20 were comparing notes so I want to get
66:22 this right
66:28 um at
67:31 2:31 uh there is an elevation change
67:34 because the Apple health application can
67:36 record um how many flights of stairs you
67:40 take but essentially what it means is
67:42 you're taking steps with an elevation
67:43 change and there was an elevation change
67:45 at
67:46 231 two floors worth of an elevation
67:49 change and then at
67:52 2:32 he concludes that the phone stopped
67:54 ever moving again at
67:57 232 so dropped off at
67:01 149 146 149 I keep forgetting that I got
67:05 to get that right hold on dropped off at
67:08 149 by
67:09 Kelsey Bridge Guy video taken at
67:12 213 they say that the phone never moved
67:15 again after
67:18 232 but let's get into the details
67:20 there's more but let's let's get into
67:23 the other times
67:28 so at um
68:33 1:41 a picture was posted to Snapchat
68:37 liby
68:38 Snapchat at 1:43 another picture is
68:42 posted to Libby's Snapchat while she's
68:44 in the car the vehicle so that would
68:46 make sense because again Kelsey dropped
68:49 them off at about 14 uh9 this is um 143
68:53 a pick is posted of Liberty in the car
68:55 on her Snapchat at 2:05 p.m. a picture
68:59 is posted on Snapchat of Abby on the
68:01 monan mo monan high bridge at 2113 is a
68:06 video taken of bridge guy at 2:14
68:10 someone tries to unlock the phone so
68:13 that's big so one minute after the
68:17 bridge Guy video is taken somebody tries
68:20 to unlock the phone at 214 they are
68:22 unsuccessful in unlocking the phone
68:26 at
68:27 2:31 flights are climbed at
69:31 2:32 the last time the phone
69:35 moved and let's keep getting into the
69:37 nitty-gritty because there's a lot of
69:39 nitty-gritty
69:47 here so let's see
69:49 here he
69:52 explains that the health app is always
69:54 on and it would always detect movement
69:56 if the phone moved it would detect
69:59 movement there's this knowledge C info
69:01 it's like okay this is where you're
69:04 going to learn that I am not a tech
69:05 person I'm writing stuff down I'm doing
69:08 my best here to relay what I heard I
69:11 this stuff is like kind of Beyond me I
69:13 doing my best uh sort of like my
69:16 sketches knowledge C info tracks
69:19 activity even simple activity like a
69:21 light on uh on a phone in 2019 knowledge
69:28 C becomes a thing so it wasn't a thing
70:30 back in
70:31 2017 necessarily but it's becoming a
70:34 thing in
70:36 2019 gray key the program they're using
70:40 which is not cite but gray key the new
70:42 programming that Indiana State Police is
70:44 starting to use gets knowledge C info
70:47 and then the software is used to put it
70:49 into a readable form so that we can read
70:53 exactly what they extract from the phone
70:56 so he's just sort of like kind of
70:58 bragging about how detailed this is um
70:01 it shows when the phone is being so
70:03 knowledge C stuff can show when the
70:05 phone's being charged when it's being
70:06 plugged in when apps are utilized when
70:09 calls are made everything like that um
70:13 and it shows a
70:14 timeline so going back to that uh going
70:19 back to uh that 141 oh so that 141
70:24 explain the picture was posted on Snap
70:25 Snapchat and it's found in the Snapchat
70:28 application like the Snapchat cash at
71:31 143 there's that other Snapchat pick of
71:33 Liberty in a tie-dye shirt in a vehicle
71:36 in an automobile and she is smiling it's
71:38 of Libby at 20:5 there's that other
71:41 Snapchat on the mo mon on high bridge
71:45 and we've already gone through this
71:46 we're going through one more time 2113
71:48 video of bridge guys recorded Abby
71:50 Williams walks across on that video and
71:54 a man Walks Behind her what happens
71:58 after the video stops well at 2:14 and
71:01 41 seconds someone tries to unlock the
71:04 phone and they are unsuccessful and at
71:06 232 is the last time the phone
71:08 moved um
71:12 but
71:14 um and then the last recorded data is at
71:19 1032 p.m. and then after that the
71:23 battery likely is completed you know it
71:26 might not have been p.m excuse me that
71:28 was probably a.m the next morning
71:30 forgive me at 10:32 a.m. is the last
72:32 recorded data the battery likely
72:34 depleted now in 2019 to 2024 a lot of
72:37 programs have changed to extract data
72:39 you get updates on programs and he
72:41 wanted to see the new info Cil wanted to
72:43 see the new info so he reprocessed the
72:46 original raw data so he did not do a new
72:49 extraction from the phone but he took
72:51 the raw data and he plugged it in this
72:54 is in 2024 to see how things have
72:57 improved and what he might get that's
72:59 new he also had access to bunner's data
72:03 that was someone a couple days ago that
72:05 also extracted the phone using sellbrite
72:08 and they compared his method one
72:10 extraction to help write a second report
72:12 of Libby's
72:14 phone the data was added in the second
72:17 report May 2024 to August
72:21 2024 so there was no old data that was
72:24 changed just data that was added to this
72:26 report and here is Page four of the
72:29 second report I explain all those times
73:32 so again I'm just going to say them one
73:34 more time really fast 131 or at 1 141
73:37 pick of a Snapchat 143 pick post of
73:39 Liberty in the car 205 a picture posted
73:42 of Abby on the bridge 213 video of
73:44 bridge guy 214 someone unsuccessfully
73:47 tries to unlock the phone 231 p.m
73:50 flights are climbed two flights are
73:52 climbed 2:32 last time phone has moved
73:55 um um knowledge C shows that the camera
73:58 is being used but it does not show
73:00 photos that were taken on page 11 it
73:04 shows that there's a video captured with
73:05 iPhone at
73:06 2113 this is a issue the the location he
73:11 explains starts at Deli High School when
73:14 this video at 213 starts capturing but
73:16 he explains that 4 seconds into the
73:18 video that the GPS Narrows onto the
73:21 bridge he says that's important because
73:23 sometimes that can happen so even though
73:25 the GPS gets it wrong right when a video
73:26 starts recording it doesn't mean it just
73:28 takes a while to Center in and it did
74:30 Center 4 seconds into the video onto the
74:33 bridge not Deli High School um the
74:37 Snapchat data location was turned on so
74:40 Snapchat was supposed to get your
74:41 location um but Apple developers they
74:45 don't want the apps to necessarily wear
74:46 the battery out of the phone so even
74:48 though there's a location data on in the
74:50 background Snapchat location in the
74:52 background is only updated in intervals
74:55 not consistently or constantly and again
74:58 he says
74:59 232 um uh was the last movement of the
74:04 phone but then this is where we get to
74:06 the issue the defense brings up at 4:33
74:11 a.m. he allegedly gathered
74:14 info that there were there were texts
74:18 and missed calls that came
74:20 in on on Libby's phone at around 4:30 in
74:25 the morning war and this is what the
74:27 defense has always stated that they
74:29 believe that the phone was turned off
75:30 and turned back on and then perhaps
75:32 maybe the time of death isn't certain
75:34 right like there's all these
75:37 thoughts
75:39 well according to according to Cecil he
75:43 says that he gathered info that the
75:45 phone was never turned off so that's
75:48 interesting to me he's this idea that
75:51 maybe the phone was turned off and
75:52 turned back on by someone at four and
75:54 all these texts came in he says that he
75:56 gathered info that shows that the phone
75:58 was never turned off and then there also
75:01 asked and there was never any movement
75:03 after that after that time at 2:32 and
75:07 he said no there was never any Movement
75:08 by the phone after 2:32 and the phone
75:10 was not turned off and then he also said
75:14 that between the time of the last
75:17 movement of the phone and the missed
75:20 text and calls that came in around
75:22 4:30 there are FaceTime calls and other
75:26 texts that come in during this time and
75:29 when the around that 4:30 p.m. they
76:32 receiv received
76:33 19 uh SMN SMS
76:38 messages don't quote me on that now I'm
76:40 like reading my notes a little insecure
76:43 um when all of the text messages came in
76:46 oh at 4:06 PM for example there was a
76:49 text received from Becky Patty and it
76:51 said you need to call me now with four
76:54 exclamation points several messages came
76:56 in at 4:33 a.m. to Libby's phone 15 to
76:00 20 messages all came in at once and then
76:04 it is asked to Cecil can you explain
76:07 that and this is a direct quote from him
76:11 based on the data I have I don't know so
76:15 in other words he cannot explain
76:18 why 15 to 20 messages all came in at
76:21 once at 4:33 a.m. in quotes BAS based on
76:25 the data I know I have I don't know
76:29 based on the data I have I don't know
77:32 direct
77:33 quote but at 4:34 a.m. that is the last
77:37 activity on Libby's phone and then it
77:39 lost power it is not turned back on
77:42 until 3:06 p.m. and it's turned back on
77:45 by Lieutenant bunner who now has the
77:47 phone after they found the girls bodies
77:49 at the crime scene 3:06 p.m. on
77:51 Valentine's Day
77:53 2017 we then have a break for the
77:55 afternoon we come back and uh then on
77:59 page 11 he explains this is another
77:02 thing that gets confusing a Snapchat of
77:04 Abby walking on the uh monan high bridge
77:08 that photo that we've seen that she
77:09 posted to her Snapchat they did not find
77:12 that picture on her device and he
77:15 doesn't know why there are other all the
77:18 other Snapchat photographs that are
77:20 posted on the Snapchat are on her device
77:25 but this one photo was not found on her
77:29 device and they don't know
78:31 why um then it is asked of him how many
78:36 steps are in a flight of stairs when it
78:38 comes to Apple health and they said
78:39 about 16 steps and you have to go
78:41 approximately 20 feet in
78:44 elevation then there's a cross
78:48 exam and there are
78:51 Snapchat picks are continued she's she's
78:54 really pushing the the cross exam is
78:56 really pushing these Snapchat picks and
78:58 how there's a Snapchat missing missing
78:00 and how that could be where is this
78:02 SnapChat if it's not on the
78:05 phone
78:07 um you know they they then they ask this
78:10 and it's really interesting they say
78:11 there's a shutdown log and every time
78:12 you turn off or on your phone it resets
78:15 the
78:16 log so they asked the defense asked the
78:19 question when bunner restarted the phone
78:21 on the 14th of February at that 3:06
78:24 p.m. it restarted the shutdown log
78:26 didn't it and uh Cecil answers correct
78:30 and the jury will never have that info
79:32 is that right defense says and he writes
79:35 correct someone explained that to me it
79:37 seems really important and I don't
79:40 understand what the shutdown log is
79:42 there's Apple messaging is brought up
79:44 now so if user a has an Apple iPhone and
79:49 user B has an Android that means that
79:52 the text is an SMS which stands for
79:55 short message service I was today years
79:58 old when I learned that I did not know
79:60 that SMS stands for short message
79:02 service so if someone has an Android and
79:04 someone has an iPhone it's an
79:06 SMS they don't need the Internet they
79:10 are delivered differently he says that
79:11 is correct so a question the defense is
79:14 bringing up so during this time that the
79:17 phone received these alleged FaceTime
79:20 calls and at you know 4:06 p.m. on the
79:23 13th at 4:30 3: a.m. on the
79:26 14th it received zero SMS messages that
80:30 needed a tower to send and a
80:33 433 she all of a sudden receives 15 SMS
80:38 messages and when I'm hearing this by
80:41 the way I'm thinking to myself well this
80:42 Mak sense because there are times when I
80:44 do get messages that I'm an iPhone user
80:47 and my Android friends my iPhone
80:49 messages will come in sometimes and my
80:50 Android friends they won't come in so to
80:52 me I'm like okay this is making sense to
80:54 me like if
80:56 okay but wait for it let just keep
80:59 going but the SMS messages are time
80:03 stamped at the time they're received so
80:05 if an SMS message doesn't come in right
80:09 away when it's received and when it's
80:12 actually sent is when it's timestamped
80:15 like when we actually get the
80:17 message so it may be unknown if the
80:21 messages came on time or late because it
80:24 just shows the time they arrive and that
80:27 is correct so now the defense
80:29 says explains that with an iPhone
81:33 messaging with iPhone
81:35 messaging if they're if it's late it's
81:39 timestamped at the time the first
81:42 attempt was made so in other words if if
81:47 those came in late they would be time
81:49 stamped earlier so she said you really
81:51 can't be certain whether the facetimes
81:54 came on time or the IM messages came on
81:57 time like you don't know that they
81:59 really came throughout the night this is
81:01 the defense arguing and Cil was like
81:03 kind of like yeah you're right correct
81:05 that was kind of a w moment I'm like
81:06 wait so now we're back to square
81:10 one why why right why did all these
81:14 messages come in at 4:30 to Libby's
81:16 phone the morning of February 14th
81:20 2017 and do we really know that other
81:22 FaceTime messages or iold messages were
81:24 coming in before then throughout the
81:26 night I guess I'm back to not being
81:28 completely
82:30 sure and then the defense States
82:36 this there is nothing on this device
82:39 that ties Richard Allen to Libby or Abby
82:42 is that correct and Cil says
82:45 correct and then she states there is
82:48 nothing it's a there's nothing on this
82:50 device that ties Richard Allen to the
82:53 murders of Libyan
82:55 is that correct and Cil says that is
82:58 correct I have to point this out I
82:01 actually disagree with his answer and
82:03 let me explain why I believe his answer
82:06 should be that he doesn't know if
82:08 there's anything on the device that ties
82:09 Richard
82:10 Allen to the murders because the
82:13 prosecution at one point we're at the
82:15 trial of Richard Allen which means that
82:17 the prosecution at one point is going to
82:20 assert that bridge guy is Richard Allen
82:23 whether that's true or not we don't know
82:26 whether the jury's going to buy it we
82:27 don't
82:28 know but the prosecution has not
82:30 asserted this yet but they're certainly
83:32 preparing to assert that bridge guy is
83:34 Richard Allen and when that happens
83:38 because it's going to happen they will
83:40 assert that bridge guy AKA Richard Allen
83:44 was captured on Libby's phone so in my
83:47 opinion the answer should have not been
83:49 correct the answer uh by Cecil should
83:52 have been he's not sure because
83:55 if the
83:57 prosecution asserts their theory that
83:59 Richard Allen is Bridge guy and the jury
83:01 buys it and he is guilty thus there is
83:04 technically something that ties Richard
83:06 Allen to the crime but that's to be
83:10 determined and I'm nitpicky now so I'll
83:12 move forward but I just that was
83:15 something that bothered me moving
83:19 on um his answer should have been I
83:22 don't know now the
83:25 prosecution brought um now there's
83:28 redirect by the prosecution they're
84:30 explaining that Richard Allen had a sell
84:33 phone in 2017 and I put whoa prosecution
84:37 finally brought up Richard Allen for
84:38 like the first time ever the defenses
84:41 brought him up but the prosecution
84:42 hasn't we're on day five this is the
84:43 first time the end of you know the end
84:46 of the day that the prosecution is
84:47 actually naming Richard Allen they're
84:49 saying that Richard Allen had a cell
84:50 phone in 2017 it was a unique serial
84:53 number of Richard Allen cell number and
84:55 did you were you able to compare that to
84:57 the other devices did you know the cell
84:59 phone that Richard Allen had at this
84:01 time and they he explains that they
84:04 analyzed uh phones of Richard Allen and
84:07 other electronics but when they searched
84:09 his phone that they were never able to
84:11 find the phone that Richard Allen had in
84:14 2017 thus it could never be analyzed so
84:18 there you go and after 2:32 p.m. oh I
84:21 say that the phone stopped and oh and
84:23 then they go into after 2:32 p.m. did
84:26 the phone ever move again and he States
84:29 no
85:31 um okay so then this is towards the end
85:35 of the
85:37 day and uh there are jury questions
85:42 they're asked if any jurors have
85:43 questions again there were no questions
85:45 after the
85:46 autopsy and after the jury questions are
85:50 collected there is a massive sidebar
85:52 like a sidebar that almost put me asleep
85:55 because they put the white noise on so
85:57 we can't hear and it was on for so long
85:59 I was getting cozy um I have a blanket
85:03 with me in the court and as a cushion
85:04 for my seat and I was getting cozy um
85:10 and we're not sleeping too much at night
85:12 so that we can get into the
85:13 courtroom um so boom massive sidebar I'm
85:16 like what's this about well they they
85:18 conclude the sidebar and they come out
85:20 and I'll just say this with so many
85:22 questions from the jury there might have
85:23 been nearly 10 questions from the jury
85:25 I've never seen so many questions from
85:27 the jury and it was all over all about
85:29 Cecil's testimony some of the questions
86:32 admittedly I didn't really understand
86:34 but I will tell you what they were
86:35 mostly about they were mostly
86:40 about the missing
86:42 photo that was seen on the
86:46 Snapchat but
86:48 missing from Libby's device so that that
86:52 photo that appeared on Snapchat that
86:54 they were never were able to find on
86:55 Libby's device that's where most of the
86:58 questions stem from
86:00 and they they asked what that meant and
86:06 uh they asked actually one of the jurors
86:08 asked if that technically meant that
86:12 Libby could have posted the photo using
86:16 somebody else's device and Cil
86:18 essentially answered technically yeah
86:21 that could be one reason so I mean the
86:24 J's going there I thought that was
86:27 interesting um wonderer asked what the
86:29 black spaces are and the timeline of the
87:31 first report the answer is the battery
87:35 levels another again another person
87:38 asked about the photo depicting the
87:40 bridge with um that didn't make it on
87:44 Libby's somehow wasn't extracted from
87:46 Libby's phone um someone was asking how
87:49 does a phone receive texts or FaceTime
87:52 calls um he didn't really have an answer
87:55 didn't understand that question the jury
87:56 is asking if they checked if he checked
87:58 the cell towers that day to figure out
87:01 so a lot of questions now about the 4:30
87:03 like all the texts coming into Libby's
87:05 phone at 4:30 a lot of questions about
87:07 that too and so one juror asked well did
87:10 you check the cell towers and how they
87:11 reacted to the phone and he explained
87:14 that no he wouldn't do that but that
87:16 another investigator would that it
87:17 wouldn't be his job to check that I
87:19 wrote again so many jur questions um
87:24 then somebody else asked if Snapchat
87:26 videos could be deleted and knowledge SE
87:28 data with an app usage he didn't
88:31 understand that question neither do I um
88:34 then somebody else is asking if a piic
88:36 could not be saved due to battery life
88:40 someone else asked where the Snapchat
88:42 picks were saved that was in the
88:44 Snapchat cache and in her photos oh oh
88:49 and in the app data and uh these sort of
88:53 questions can continued and that that
88:57 was a day
88:58 today and they called it a
88:01 day so there you go
88:07 um so I'll I'll look at some questions
88:10 now this is a great first one lighter
88:13 was what they had on the screen and if
88:15 you look it up it is another term for um
88:19 I'll tell you I'll read it cuz I was
88:22 confused as well but that was
88:25 absolutely what was on the screen
88:28 Googled
89:31 it uh it's another term for liver
89:34 mortise also known as postmortem
89:37 vividity or
89:39 postmortem I'm not going to try to
89:41 pronounce that word it's a postmortem
89:43 change that occurs when blood pools in
89:45 the lower parts of the body after death
89:47 this pooling causes the skin to discolor
89:49 ranging from pink to dark purple thank
89:52 you AI overview
89:56 um I am going to look at everything you
89:60 guys have been sending um now and I
89:03 we'll if you have a question put a giant
89:06 question mark on it and I'll answer some
89:10 questions and thank you
89:12 everyone it means a
89:16 lot thank you Grandma Michigan
89:26 interesting Theory thank you
89:29 Essie Libby was forced to put them on
90:31 because it was
90:32 easier oh my gosh I know uh can't stop
90:36 crying for days I'm going to probably
90:39 have some time to myself it was you guys
90:41 it's heavy man it's heavy stuff and the
90:43 more I learn the more
90:46 just horrible it gets I cannot imagine a
90:50 worst nightmare and this town is so tiny
90:52 and so tight-knit and
90:55 to think it could happen there I've been
90:57 to this beautiful
90:59 spot thank you so much Elina thank you
90:02 for taking the time to be in Indiana and
90:03 cover this case Sami day thank you for
90:06 gifting a
90:07 membership Lynn thank you for being a
90:09 member for 19 months thank you for
90:11 keeping us informed you are welcome it
90:14 is not easy but thank you for
90:16 appreciating this um thank you
90:21 Rosemary thank you Deborah
90:29 thank you so
91:33 much all right let's get to these
91:42 questions okay I'm looking
91:45 now I saw some one person asked if Dr
91:48 John was in chat he's not he is
91:50 parenting
91:51 tonight um
91:55 I will I will catch him up
91:10 though that's interesting someone says I
91:13 have an iPhone user at home they just
91:15 told me if using the find my iPhone app
91:18 if the phone is changed to lost or
91:20 stolen it will power on that is
91:23 interesting that people work trying to
91:24 get into her iPad to find her iPhone
91:27 that evening so
91:29 that's is
92:32 interesting I know keep keep the
92:34 victim's families and your thoughts I I
92:36 see them every day and my heart just
92:38 goes out to them and I can't imagine
92:40 what all the families are going through
92:43 um Richard Allen's family too sitting
92:45 there
92:47 um
92:51 yeah what about how Libby's back looked
92:58 um so um let's pull that up
92:03 again oh so we didn't see Libby's back
92:06 actually um that I recall we did see
92:08 Libby's back at the crime scene I won't
92:11 ever forget that um I didn't notice much
92:14 because I didn't have anyone pointing
92:15 out to me what to look for it was there
92:17 was just a lot of blood but there was no
92:20 back photo of Libby that I recall from
92:22 the autopsy photos today
92:28 thank you so much KCl we really
92:30 appreciate
93:33 you that is true Troublemaker Baker a
93:35 lot of people are saying who was killed
93:37 first they have never stated
93:39 that
93:41 um great question Rebecca Lee I want to
93:44 know now too is RA right or
93:52 left-handed Heidi yeah so that's I think
93:55 a question many people are
93:00 asking sorry guys I can't keep up with
93:02 all the questions again if you have a
93:04 question that you need me to answer
93:05 right now put a red question mark
93:08 because the chat's going so fast um I
93:11 can't see everything that's coming
93:13 through and forgive me if I'm missing
93:17 something wouldn't Searchers hear a
93:19 ringing phone it makes no sense you're
93:21 right I think that's part of the
93:22 question is was there a moment when her
93:25 phone wasn't catching service was it
93:26 turned on um there's certainly a lot of
93:29 theories out there wouldn't Searchers
94:31 hear a ringing phone I'll I'll say this
94:33 though I went out to the area where they
94:35 were found I went to the cemetery I've
94:37 gone through the woods I've gone to the
94:39 bridge well it's true that there's a lot
94:41 of leaves right now because it's it's
94:43 October and in February there were no
94:45 leaves they were all on the ground this
94:47 is a very dense wooded
94:50 area um and I'm personally not surprised
94:53 that nobody found them until the next
94:55 day um I don't I don't know why a phone
94:59 wasn't ringing I don't
94:03 know maybe they also put the phone on
94:05 silent right they haven't said maybe the
94:07 girls were hiding the phone and they
94:09 certainly didn't want the phone to ring
94:11 while they were with
94:16 him it's a great question Lynn I'd love
94:20 to know that did they try to lift
94:22 fingerprints off of Libby's phone to be
94:25 determined I would hope they
94:28 tried they did not really discuss the
95:31 blood on Libby's legs today oddly um I
95:35 think that the theory is
95:38 that there was just a lot but you're not
95:40 they they didn't really or if if he did
95:42 I missed it but no they didn't discuss
95:45 the blood on Libby's legs today in um
95:49 detail
95:56 we do not not yo if there was DNA taken
95:59 off of Li Abby and Libby's bodies or
95:00 pronal effects that tie that are a tied
95:03 to their murders um there was DNA taken
95:06 from their bodies we learned that
95:07 yesterday about all the evidence that
95:09 was taken and swapped from their bodies
95:11 and we learned about the sa kits that
95:12 were taken but as of right now we have
95:15 not heard of any DNA that was found that
95:17 would connect uh DNA of a
95:22 killer great question gray is the jury
95:25 paying attention they absolutely are and
95:28 they are taking a lot of notes um and as
96:31 you can see by the questions they're
96:33 asking they have a lot of questions one
96:35 thing that's interesting about this jury
96:36 is there are certainly some jurors that
96:38 know about this crime it's not like
96:41 other trials I've covered like the dbel
96:44 case where like if you had seen one
96:45 documentary on the case you were like
96:47 not even considered like they wanted
96:49 every jury to have absolutely zero
96:52 knowledge about the crime case in this
96:55 situation I've heard that that wasn't
96:57 really a mandatory thing and some of the
96:00 first juror questions that were asked
96:03 like on the second day and the third day
96:05 really had me thinking that these some
96:07 of these jurors know more about this
96:09 crime because some some of the questions
96:11 I even thought we haven't even gotten to
96:14 that yet has that even been mentioned um
96:16 and I think that just hearing about the
96:18 questions they're asking like everyone
96:19 wanting to know about the missing photo
96:21 on the Snapchat everyone wanting to
96:23 understand why the phone didn't turn
96:25 back on at 4:30 I think that perhaps
96:28 these are jurors that have been thinking
96:29 about this case for a while and I think
97:31 their question show that they're paying
97:33 attention some of them looked really
97:35 distraught today during the autopsies
97:45 clearly
97:48 um that this is a possibility that's
97:50 crossed my mind skinny Pete do you think
97:51 Abby May been alive and grabbing what
97:54 whatever clothes perhaps who who knows
97:57 um I don't you know I don't know did did
97:01 did the the killer redresser did before
97:05 or after did she put on clothes herself
97:09 did Libby give her clothes I don't know
97:11 if we'll ever
97:13 know
97:15 um I don't know but we do know from the
97:18 debris that was found underneath her
97:19 sweatshirt that at one point she was
97:22 lying on the ground without a
98:35 shirt do I find it surprising that
98:37 Richard Allen's family is there to
98:38 witness all of this you know I do find
98:41 it interesting I I find it interesting
98:43 because this doesn't always happen with
98:44 a defendant um I've been to quite a few
98:48 trials now and um there are often not
98:52 people there for the defendant it's not
98:55 uncommon um I don't know what message it
98:59 gives the jury and I don't know what
98:01 they're thinking this is what I think
98:03 this is what I see I see a tightnit
98:06 family I see um Richard
98:09 Allen's sister rubbing Kathy Allen's
98:12 back I see um commitment and I I even
98:17 see Richard Allen's dad and it certainly
98:20 makes me more
98:21 Curious and again I don't know what
98:24 they're thinking I wonder if they're
98:26 there to learn just like the public
98:29 because remember this case has been so
99:31 tight lip they really haven't shared
99:33 that much I don't believe with
99:36 like Richard Allen's
99:38 family um you know allegedly he
99:42 confessed to some of his family
99:44 allegedly we're going to find out later
99:45 in the trial I think um and I think in
99:49 many ways this is how I feel about most
99:50 defendants family that in many ways they
99:54 to our victims um they didn't ask for
99:57 this I I say that again with Chad Dell's
99:59 Children um they they they didn't commit
99:05 any crime that we know of um we don't
99:08 know if the defendant committed a crime
99:09 but we don't know if they committed any
99:11 crime um I don't think they did and uh
99:15 their lives are turned completely upside
99:17 down so um what do I think it gives the
99:21 message I think if I don't I don't think
99:23 it's bad
99:28 but it is
100:36 interesting thanks Rebecca yeah possibly
100:40 right that's a great question you're
100:42 right Rebecca like you think there's a
100:44 lot of things they could perhaps figure
100:46 out
100:49 um you know I want to talk about this
100:51 thank you Vanessa do I think that Libby
100:53 might have put more up a fight versus
100:54 Abby and that's why it seems like she
100:55 was targeted or got the worst of it this
100:57 has certainly crossed my mind but let me
100:58 point out that what was shown in the
100:00 autopsy today that neither girl really
100:03 had defensive
100:05 wounds that's surprising so we're not
100:10 seeing necessarily that Libby put up a
100:12 fight right there there's no evidence of
100:16 that what there is evidence
100:18 of is um and I'm no profiler but I don't
100:21 think it takes a genius to see that
100:23 Libby was certain certainly targeted or
100:24 or there was more rage towards Libby I'm
100:27 not
100:28 saying forgive me and I'm not saying
101:31 that um the killer um knew Libby I don't
101:37 know I do not know but uh at the crime
101:43 scene there she was targeted in there
101:46 was more Rage or or something or anger
101:49 towards Libby um absolutely
101:59 right and from that you can suggest that
101:01 she was targeted to begin with
101:19 um you guys have a lot of great theories
101:22 and I'm not even I think I'm almost just
101:24 like too exhausted to theorize I just
101:26 it's just so sad it's just so sad I
102:30 can't imagine any person doing this to
102:35 two two innocent girls best friends out
102:38 for a walk on a day off of
102:41 school I think actually I am going to go
102:43 take off and rest it's been a very very
102:46 busy day and night and then um get back
102:49 in line at the courthouse
102:52 so I um going to take off but thank you
102:55 everyone for being here I see that we
102:56 have 8,000 in chat um I think that shows
102:59 how many people care about Libby and
102:00 Abby and uh May Justice be served right
102:04 whatever that looks like May Justice be
102:06 served through these two best friends um
102:09 thank you for your support while I'm out
102:11 here it means the world and actually
102:12 makes it possible to be out here so
102:15 thank you thank you um thank you for
102:17 subscribing thank you for liking thank
102:19 you for your super chats and I'll just
102:21 double check speaking of super chats
102:22 make sure I didn't miss
102:28 anything Susie thank you I will I will
103:32 or dinner we're right now just packing
103:35 peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and
103:37 eating them quickly had LGE but um I I
103:42 will thank you get some
103:49 snacks all right thank you everyone
103:51 thank you to our moderators and a big
103:53 thank thank you to again Christina who
103:55 did the sketches today that really
103:57 helped to drive home um how horrible
103:02 these autopsies were and how important
103:04 it was to see that and um you can find
103:07 her at Instagram at hey Christina Mack
103:11 again she is not asking me to say that
103:13 she wanted to do this as a service to
103:15 Libyan Abby I am the one saying that her
103:18 Instagram is hey Christina Ma and uh you
103:21 can let her know that you're grateful
103:23 that she was was able to do those for us
103:26 all right guys um we'll see you tomorrow
103:29 bye