[03:25.220 --> 03:26.480]  [BOB MOTTA]: I am your host, Bob Mata.
[03:26.620 --> 03:29.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I am once again joined by my beautiful and brilliant co-host, Allie.
[03:30.000 --> 03:30.560]  [BOB MOTTA]: What's up, girl?
[03:31.060 --> 03:31.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: Hey, babe.
[03:31.540 --> 03:31.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: Hey, all.
[03:33.160 --> 03:34.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So we...
[03:34.080 --> 03:35.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: And this is our continuing coverage of...
[03:35.520 --> 03:37.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: The Richard Allen case.
[03:37.520 --> 03:39.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: So the state of Indiana versus Richard M.
[03:40.040 --> 03:40.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: Allen.
[03:41.680 --> 03:43.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: It's the case that never sleeps.
[03:43.420 --> 03:46.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: It's the case that just keeps on going.
[03:46.360 --> 04:00.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it's a case that we should keep in the forefront of our minds because I think it's one of those cases that we really need to keep a very, very close eye on, which leads us into tonight's live because I've been looking forward to this.
[04:00.400 --> 04:04.780]  [BOB MOTTA]: I've been trying to wrangle our special, special guests.
[04:04.860 --> 04:06.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: We have two special guests.
[04:07.140 --> 04:11.600]  [BOB MOTTA]: One of them, Andrea Burkhart, is a dear friend of ours who we love and adore.
[04:11.700 --> 04:13.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: She's a brilliant attorney.
[04:13.640 --> 04:16.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: She's got her own YouTube channel that just crushes it.
[04:16.780 --> 04:20.480]  [BOB MOTTA]: She is obviously joining us and we're very, very happy to have her.
[04:21.100 --> 04:26.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: And our special, special guest we've never had on, and that is Stacey Eldridge.
[04:27.160 --> 04:38.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: And Stacey just so happened to be Richard Allen's data forensic, digital data forensic examiner who was hired by the team who testified at trial.
[04:39.720 --> 04:41.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: Stacey's unbelievable.
[04:42.280 --> 04:45.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: Both Andrea and I were there during the trial.
[04:45.400 --> 04:48.560]  [BOB MOTTA]: I thought she was magnificent on the stand.
[04:48.760 --> 05:01.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: In light of some really strange circumstances, which I'm sure we will get into tonight regarding a Google search that happened during a break, that was probably unlike anything that Stacey's ever had to deal with.
[05:01.560 --> 05:09.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't know that any of us have ever had to deal with that in terms of lawyers or expert witnesses, but Stacey is former FBI.
[05:10.320 --> 05:12.560]  [BOB MOTTA]: She was with them for quite a while.
[05:13.580 --> 05:16.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: She had a stretch from 2003 to 2012.
[05:16.960 --> 05:30.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: During that time, she served as an information tech specialist, a forensic examiner on the computer analysis response team, a senior forensic examiner on CART as well, and a digital evidence instructor for CART headquarters.
[05:31.160 --> 05:32.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: She trains people.
[05:32.840 --> 05:33.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: She knows her stuff.
[05:33.960 --> 05:38.840]  [BOB MOTTA]: She currently has her own firm that she is running now.
[05:39.740 --> 05:44.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: And we'll ask her, I'll just pull her on and see what she primarily does in terms of her business.
[05:45.460 --> 05:47.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: But let's bring on Andrea first.
[05:48.280 --> 05:48.280]  Hello.
[05:48.900 --> 05:49.760]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Hey, guys.
[05:50.220 --> 05:51.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: So happy to see you.
[05:51.780 --> 05:53.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Oh, good to see you guys again.
[05:53.340 --> 05:56.900]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I have a question for you first before we get into the good stuff.
[05:57.020 --> 06:00.820]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Are you guys going to make it to the sphere in any of the upcoming weekends?
[06:01.480 --> 06:01.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah, we are.
[06:02.260 --> 06:03.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Bob is definitely out.
[06:04.040 --> 06:09.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And I am holding out hope that somehow I'm going to be able to make it.
[06:09.740 --> 06:16.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But as it gets closer, then I realize that it might not happen.
[06:16.180 --> 06:18.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But I'm still holding out hope.
[06:18.280 --> 06:20.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I really, really, really hope you guys...
[06:20.900 --> 06:22.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I will fingers crossed for you.
[06:22.760 --> 06:23.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[06:23.320 --> 06:25.660]  [BOB MOTTA]: I obviously would definitely want to come.
[06:25.880 --> 06:29.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: But our daughter has a softball tournament five hours away.
[06:29.400 --> 06:30.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: So that trumps...
[06:31.280 --> 06:33.000]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: That's the weekend of the baby shower.
[06:33.200 --> 06:35.600]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh, no, that is this... No, that's the weekend of the baby shower.
[06:35.740 --> 06:39.500]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: You were supposed to be at advocacy convention.
[06:39.820 --> 06:40.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: That's right.
[06:40.500 --> 06:41.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: We'll see.
[06:41.400 --> 06:41.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah, we'll see.
[06:42.320 --> 06:42.800]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[06:42.820 --> 06:45.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: So without further ado, let's bring on our special, special guest.
[06:46.000 --> 06:47.560]  [BOB MOTTA]: You're just the special guest, Andrea.
[06:48.960 --> 06:50.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I'll take it.
[06:51.680 --> 06:52.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: So here she is.
[06:53.340 --> 06:55.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: Hello and welcome, Stacey eldridge.
[06:55.520 --> 06:56.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: How are you?
[06:56.220 --> 06:57.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you for joining us.
[06:57.700 --> 06:58.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I'm great.
[06:58.520 --> 06:59.240]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Thanks for having me.
[07:00.100 --> 07:00.320]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[07:00.460 --> 07:02.660]  [BOB MOTTA]: So we're really excited to have you.
[07:02.700 --> 07:06.620]  [BOB MOTTA]: As you can imagine, the three of us have a million questions.
[07:07.400 --> 07:12.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: I did not ask you out of time how much time you're allocating to us.
[07:12.640 --> 07:15.660]  [BOB MOTTA]: So I want you to feel free at any time.
[07:15.820 --> 07:18.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: If it starts to go long, you're like, hey, I got to go.
[07:19.080 --> 07:20.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: And we will, of course, respect that.
[07:20.720 --> 07:22.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: And we will bid you a fond farewell.
[07:22.700 --> 07:24.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: But we're very grateful that you're here.
[07:24.640 --> 07:26.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: And we're really excited that you're here.
[07:27.100 --> 07:32.640]  [BOB MOTTA]: So why don't you just tell the people beyond kind of what I described in terms of what you've done in your career?
[07:33.220 --> 07:34.620]  [BOB MOTTA]: What are you up to now?
[07:35.440 --> 07:35.600]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah.
[07:35.740 --> 07:41.160]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So these days, I am primarily focusing on doing mobile forensics.
[07:41.260 --> 07:46.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I do the digital forensics too, but I'm really trying to focus on doing the iPhone specifically.
[07:46.560 --> 07:54.780]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I prefer to get the criminal defense cases in my own firm, but I do a mix of whatever stuff that people need their iPhones examined for.
[07:55.320 --> 08:06.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then in addition to running my own business, I am an adjunct professor at a couple of different universities where I teach mobile forensics, digital forensics, and a variety of cybersecurity classes.
[08:07.480 --> 08:07.820]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Okay.
[08:08.060 --> 08:08.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Kind of busy.
[08:09.060 --> 08:09.780]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: A little bit.
[08:11.360 --> 08:12.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: A little bit.
[08:12.540 --> 08:23.080]  [BOB MOTTA]: So in terms of your, at some point during the, you know, I guess we'd call it the pre-trial period of Richard Allen's case, you were retained by the defense.
[08:23.640 --> 08:24.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yes.
[08:24.760 --> 08:28.320]  [BOB MOTTA]: And when do you think that was approximately, initially?
[08:29.240 --> 08:37.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Ms. Auger, you first contacted me at the beginning of August and, you know, kind of told me a little bit about the case and said, you know, could we retain you?
[08:37.440 --> 08:39.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And I said, yep, we could do that.
[08:39.420 --> 08:42.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so we got all the, you know, engagement letters signed.
[08:42.500 --> 08:53.880]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then it was, wasn't until the end of August that we had the written report back from Mr. Cecil at the Indiana State Police before I could do anything with the case.
[08:54.440 --> 08:54.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[08:54.960 --> 09:07.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: And that, I think, because he had done initially a report back in 2019, but then he was wanting to use the most up-to-date version of Sally Bright.
[09:07.260 --> 09:07.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: Right.
[09:07.500 --> 09:08.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: And that's what you guys were waiting on.
[09:10.680 --> 09:10.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah.
[09:10.940 --> 09:11.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I don't know.
[09:11.440 --> 09:13.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: He was continuing to examine.
[09:13.240 --> 09:20.980]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so he needed to at least update that written report with some of the things he had talked about in his deposition and had done.
[09:21.460 --> 09:32.460]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Did they give you a forensic image, like an official forensic image that then you could go and create your own extraction with your own parameters to make sure that they didn't weed anything out?
[09:32.920 --> 09:37.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So they gave me copies of multiple extractions that they had done.
[09:38.380 --> 09:44.600]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: They had the initial ones that they did straight away in February, and then they did some more like seven months later.
[09:45.540 --> 09:50.120]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then they had Mr. Cecil had also done one even later with a gray key.
[09:50.360 --> 09:55.700]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I couldn't do my own extraction because I didn't have the cell phone.
[09:55.860 --> 09:59.740]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I just worked off of the extractions that they did.
[10:00.400 --> 10:09.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And in forensics, the best practice is to only do that one extraction.
[10:09.540 --> 10:25.920]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You can do it like multiple ways, but you're just going to do it at that one time at that one session when you're hooked up to that tool, you typically aren't shutting the phone on and off and pulling it and extracting it numerous times.
[10:26.120 --> 10:32.740]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Now you can certainly examine with updated versions of software, whatever extractions you have.
[10:32.800 --> 10:34.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And that's done all the time, right?
[10:34.100 --> 10:41.120]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Because you know, many years go by and then you're like, well, let's just refresh our memories and see what else we can find.
[10:41.300 --> 10:48.260]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And that's the biggest problem with cell phones is cell phones are released faster than our forensic tools can keep up.
[10:49.520 --> 10:55.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: One of the things I remember from your testimony, we heard a lot about there's three different types of extractions.
[10:55.520 --> 11:03.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: There's the basic logical extraction, which is like the lowest kind of level of information you can get from the phone.
[11:03.340 --> 11:08.600]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: There's the advanced logical that gives you a more system information or app information.
[11:09.200 --> 11:14.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And then there's the full file system, which is really what you want when you're able to get that.
[11:14.940 --> 11:20.440]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's going to be the most thorough resource that you can have for what's in the phone.
[11:20.920 --> 11:27.680]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So what we heard was that when Mr. Bunner did the first extraction on the phone, he chose to do the logical.
[11:28.480 --> 11:43.300]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And part of your testimony was that, you know, you checked to see kind of what was available for that operating system on Libby's phone back at the time, and a more sophisticated extraction could have been done at the time.
[11:43.640 --> 12:08.540]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So my question to you is, do you have any idea from what you reviewed or just from your own experience why that decision would have been made to do that limited extraction, given what we ultimately found out, which is that that can affect the ability to get full information from the phone in subsequent extractions?
[12:08.540 --> 12:11.700]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You know, I don't know why he did what he did,
[12:16.050 --> 12:17.210]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Mr. Bunner.
[12:18.110 --> 12:22.330]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: My guess is, you know, you can do that logical extraction.
[12:22.530 --> 12:23.690]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's the really quick one.
[12:23.850 --> 12:28.790]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So if somebody's waiting, that's what you would do to just give them something to start with and go off of.
[12:28.850 --> 12:34.950]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But then you would go back and do that full file system extraction that takes longer.
[12:36.570 --> 12:43.450]  [BOB MOTTA]: And as far as is data loss, what are the things you're primarily concerned about?
[12:43.510 --> 12:48.050]  [BOB MOTTA]: Because it's really the mechanism of turning the phone off and on.
[12:48.670 --> 12:50.810]  [BOB MOTTA]: That's when you experience some loss, right?
[12:50.850 --> 13:01.690]  [BOB MOTTA]: And in this case, the loss sounded like it was pretty important stuff in terms of things that we would have liked to have been able to know, which were lost forever.
[13:01.930 --> 13:08.310]  [BOB MOTTA]: So can you explain what type of losses experienced when the phone is powered on and off over time?
[13:09.330 --> 13:09.510]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yep.
[13:09.650 --> 13:11.630]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So there's a couple different things we're worried about.
[13:11.750 --> 13:15.630]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: First off, there is just like, what happens when you turn that phone on and off?
[13:15.730 --> 13:22.690]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: There's a log called the current power log, and I harped on that one a lot when I testified because that one has something very important.
[13:22.690 --> 13:25.590]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: When was the phone last powered off?
[13:25.930 --> 13:28.090]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And that only stays for that one cycle.
[13:28.330 --> 13:33.230]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So, you know, you turn it on and then once you shut it off, you've lost that previous power cycle.
[13:33.350 --> 13:34.770]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You don't know when it was last shut off.
[13:34.910 --> 13:37.410]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So all of that evidence was destroyed.
[13:38.190 --> 13:44.370]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then the power log also contains information like your volume of your ringtone vibrates.
[13:44.570 --> 13:47.790]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So, and again, it's just kept for that one cycle.
[13:48.030 --> 13:49.270]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So that was gone.
[13:49.430 --> 13:55.670]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then when you're turning it on and off, you're obviously going to be losing any sort of temporary cache data as well.
[13:55.870 --> 13:57.650]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Some stuff is just temporary.
[13:57.810 --> 13:59.650]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It doesn't live on your phone forever.
[14:00.270 --> 14:04.590]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then the other thing that you're having to work against is just the numbers game.
[14:04.870 --> 14:08.030]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Some logs are only kept for X number of days.
[14:08.290 --> 14:14.270]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So the longer you wait to get it, it starts dropping that stuff off the older and older it gets.
[14:14.510 --> 14:20.270]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So it's super important to like jump on the cell phone and get everything off of it as soon as possible.
[14:20.810 --> 14:32.650]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So when the three extractions that Andrea mentioned, did they actually do three separate extractions or they did it once and then ran it using different settings?
[14:33.910 --> 14:36.350]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: They turned that phone on and off.
[14:36.470 --> 14:39.970]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I don't know how many times and did how many different things to it.
[14:40.070 --> 14:46.430]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I mean, it's just hard to tell because again, no notes, no written reports documenting in any of that stuff.
[14:46.570 --> 14:48.210]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I could just see a lot.
[14:48.430 --> 14:49.810]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Now that's very unusual, right?
[14:49.950 --> 14:55.550]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Because at least in my experience, I know my experts look at that to see all the things you just said.
[14:55.630 --> 14:57.730]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Like, did they only power it off once?
[14:57.750 --> 15:00.150]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Did it go into airplane mode beforehand?
[15:00.910 --> 15:04.730]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: It shows what they did during their extraction.
[15:04.970 --> 15:12.190]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So in your experience, is it unusual that you didn't get reports about the process and about what they did and why they did it?
[15:13.590 --> 15:21.430]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It's not unusual to not receive notes necessarily because you got to go through some extra motions and stuff to try to get those.
[15:21.550 --> 15:30.770]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But at least to get a written report from the law enforcement agency documenting what happens, that's highly unusual.
[15:31.090 --> 15:42.270]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And in terms of best practices, the way that I've been trained and the way that I train, it's, you know, you keep the phone in the state that it's in until you're ready to do something with it.
[15:42.370 --> 15:43.650]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So in this case, it was off.
[15:43.750 --> 15:46.030]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So you'd keep it off until you're ready to do that extraction.
[15:46.230 --> 15:50.230]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then once you're doing your extractions, you keep it on until you're done.
[15:51.230 --> 15:51.350]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Okay.
[15:51.370 --> 15:55.450]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So then I kind of cut you off with the three extractions that... Oh, you did.
[15:55.510 --> 15:59.270]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: You said that they actually did three separate extractions, right?
[15:59.330 --> 15:59.570]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Or not?
[15:59.650 --> 15:59.890]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah.
[16:00.090 --> 16:03.810]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Because they did like the quick logical with a celebrite.
[16:03.970 --> 16:08.210]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then they did like methods one through three is what they called it with a celebrite.
[16:08.450 --> 16:13.110]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then I think they went back a number of months later and did it again with a celebrite. And then they then...
[16:13.350 --> 16:18.410]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So it's hooking up to the machine again, each time.
[16:18.550 --> 16:23.870]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: It's not pull all the data once and then running the data through different formats.
[16:24.410 --> 16:24.730]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Right.
[16:24.790 --> 16:28.370]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: When you do the extractions, you have to start each one over.
[16:28.590 --> 16:33.230]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And you could certainly keep the phone on the whole time and never disconnected and do that.
[16:34.150 --> 16:45.790]  [BOB MOTTA]: So I see a lot of people in the chat are saying that your sound is really... I don't... If she doesn't have a mic, I don't know if there's any way we can get her volume up.
[16:46.310 --> 16:47.310]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't know.
[16:48.450 --> 16:49.630]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I'm too soft.
[16:50.150 --> 16:50.350]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[16:50.550 --> 16:50.830]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[16:50.870 --> 16:51.850]  [BOB MOTTA]: People say you're low.
[16:57.880 --> 16:58.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: Is this better?
[16:59.420 --> 17:00.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: I think so.
[17:01.020 --> 17:03.040]  [BOB MOTTA]: Maybe crank it up even a little bit more.
[17:03.100 --> 17:03.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: A little bit more.
[17:06.440 --> 17:07.440]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: How about this?
[17:08.640 --> 17:09.920]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I think it sounds better.
[17:10.140 --> 17:11.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I hear a difference.
[17:11.860 --> 17:12.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Do you hear a difference, Andrea?
[17:13.460 --> 17:19.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I can't quite tell, but I'll ask a question, how about, and then we'll give her a chance to talk and see if it helps.
[17:19.960 --> 17:38.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I wanted to follow up on the temporary files that get lost because one of the big mysteries that kind of surrounded the phone in this particular case had to do with a photograph that had been uploaded, we're told, to Libby's Snapchat.
[17:39.280 --> 17:44.260]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And apparently during the extraction, this photo was not found in the photos.
[17:44.600 --> 17:47.900]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It wasn't found in the Snapchat cache.
[17:49.900 --> 17:55.740]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And, you know, it wasn't apparently found in, like, deleted files or anything like that.
[17:55.780 --> 17:57.500]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Like, it was just nowhere to be found.
[17:57.920 --> 18:03.460]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It was apparently subsequently hunted down from the internet rather than from the phone itself.
[18:04.060 --> 18:20.820]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so I'm wondering, is there, like, cache data like that that you would expect to be lost, either over time or because of the powering on and off of the phone through the extraction, either associated with Snapchat or associated with deleted files or something like that?
[18:20.840 --> 18:29.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If, say, they took the photo, posted it, deleted it, is that a potential explanation for why that Snapchat data doesn't seem to be there?
[18:29.900 --> 18:31.260]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Is that something that you know?
[18:31.260 --> 18:32.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Because I know you didn't testify to it.
[18:34.260 --> 18:45.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: In general, Snapchat is the problem in this case because it's hard for a lot of the forensics tools to parse everything out.
[18:45.860 --> 18:49.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so not everything in Snapchat is necessarily supported.
[18:49.580 --> 18:56.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So it requires some manual digging and linking to get all that stuff parsed out.
[18:56.640 --> 18:59.300]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So Snapchat typically requires manual work.
[18:59.400 --> 19:01.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Your automated tools don't do it for you.
[19:01.480 --> 19:11.100]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But correct me if I'm wrong, Andrea, didn't we hear that all her other Snapchats were in some sort of cache or some sort of backup file or somewhere on the device?
[19:11.840 --> 19:26.020]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I don't recall specifically if it was Snapchat stuff, but I do, yeah, I mean, we know they had Snapchat data because they were pulling, they pulled, like, her last photos that she took in the car, for example.
[19:26.020 --> 19:31.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We know they had GPS data that they relied on that came out of Snapchat data.
[19:31.660 --> 19:34.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So we know they certainly had some stuff.
[19:35.740 --> 19:49.700]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's just, yeah, it was, it was really, it was a very big mystery that has still, as far as I'm concerned, not been solved about why, why is there no sign of this particular image anywhere on the phone?
[19:50.160 --> 19:52.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: And this is the image in question that we're talking about.
[19:52.880 --> 19:58.080]  [BOB MOTTA]: So this is the image of, of Abby as she's walking across the bridge.
[19:58.340 --> 20:08.800]  [BOB MOTTA]: And the reason that it's such a, a problematic photograph is because of the time that it was allegedly taken is minutes before the video starts.
[20:08.880 --> 20:18.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: And you have a very clear shot of the north, north end of the bridge, and you clearly don't see Bridge Guy or anybody for that matter.
[20:18.620 --> 20:26.840]  [BOB MOTTA]: And you can kind of tell where you can see, I can't blow it, I can't blow it up any more than I have, but you can see both, both platforms.
[20:26.840 --> 20:33.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: You can see the first, the closest platform over on the right-hand side of the tracks, right-hand looking at it.
[20:33.520 --> 20:40.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: And then you can, further back, you can see the, the actual would be the first platform that you would hit if you're heading southbound on the tracks.
[20:41.320 --> 20:45.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: So you could get a pretty good idea of where she's at on that bridge.
[20:45.240 --> 20:48.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: I've been, both Henry and I have been out to that bridge.
[20:48.320 --> 20:50.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: She's very close to getting over.
[20:50.840 --> 20:53.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: You can see also how far back the river is.
[20:53.820 --> 20:55.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: So she's crossed over the river.
[20:55.560 --> 21:01.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: She's now over land and she's getting close to the end of the trestle portion of the tracks.
[21:01.780 --> 21:05.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, I mean, it's, it's real problematic and like no one knows where it came from.
[21:07.280 --> 21:12.480]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And it's supposed to be six minutes before the, the video, the video starts.
[21:12.780 --> 21:17.040]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And like you, like you said, there's just no, no indication of bridge guy in this photo.
[21:17.700 --> 21:19.140]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah, it's, it's weird.
[21:19.460 --> 21:20.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: It's a strange one.
[21:20.460 --> 21:31.140]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So Stacey, assume for the purposes of just this question that her other Snapchat pictures were somehow in a cache or, or evident somewhere on the device.
[21:31.140 --> 21:50.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Is there something about like what exactly what Andrea asked you that would make the last photo that she took just disappear if all the other ones are there or does that, is it something even more you know, unexplainable than that?
[21:52.320 --> 21:53.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It's hard to tell.
[21:53.520 --> 22:04.800]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I could say that I'm not sure which photos were like taken by the camera and then shared over Snapchat versus what was taken directly with the Snapchat app and shared.
[22:05.460 --> 22:06.880]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So that could be the difference.
[22:07.480 --> 22:21.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But you wouldn't expect it to be just like that one thing gets lost because they processed it so many times because it got turned in off on and off that, that you wouldn't expect to lose evidence of a photo from that.
[22:22.200 --> 22:27.480]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I would say it would be unusual for the most recent thing to be gone first.
[22:31.420 --> 22:35.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: First, it's usually first in first out, right?
[22:35.200 --> 22:36.000]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: For data loss.
[22:36.480 --> 22:36.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yep.
[22:37.260 --> 22:44.780]  [BOB MOTTA]: And with respect to Snapchat in particular, now, of course, I had to go to my, my teenager to explain it to me because I don't really understand how it works.
[22:45.200 --> 22:46.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I don't get it at all.
[22:46.380 --> 22:47.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: So don't feel bad.
[22:47.320 --> 22:47.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't get it.
[22:47.860 --> 22:50.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like, he's trying to show me how to use it.
[22:50.040 --> 22:51.100]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I just can't figure it out.
[22:51.400 --> 23:01.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: So but at any rate, I know that I know this much, at least that there's a setting that where, because the concept of like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like, the concept of Snapchat was originally that the kids liked it, because it would,
[23:01.340 --> 23:06.620]  [BOB MOTTA]: it would automatically delete whatever you set after a certain period of time.
[23:06.700 --> 23:19.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: Now, I know that there was a setting wherein your friends could grab a screen grab of that picture, and or you could also, there was a setting where you could save it to your own photos.
[23:20.460 --> 23:25.760]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, I mean, were you able to see anything like that in terms of the extraction report?
[23:25.760 --> 23:38.780]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like what would like the settings because that was the one thing I never understood in terms of how apps work with the phones themselves in terms of cellular bright extractions, you know what I'm saying?
[23:38.780 --> 23:47.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: Because you're like, you're, they're really trying to deal with Apple and or a droid in terms of trying to figure out what their secret sauce is, respectively.
[23:48.260 --> 23:56.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like, how much do they incorporate in those in that type of software to try to deal specifically with apps in terms of recovery?
[23:57.920 --> 24:04.560]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Typically, they're going to focus on the biggest users of stuff or the most popular things.
[24:05.820 --> 24:14.720]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So if it's a popular app, they're going to have a lot more built in support for it where the tool is going to automatically present you this information versus something that's more obscure.
[24:15.840 --> 24:18.960]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And they're obviously focused more on the United States market.
[24:19.260 --> 24:30.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so if you get somebody from a different country that's using what's to their country here, the odds of it being parsed out automatically and presented in a nice readable format is really low.
[24:31.660 --> 24:33.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So there's just too much stuff.
[24:34.160 --> 24:45.540]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So going back to the whole forensic image, and I don't know if lingo has changed, but do you ever get a forensic image of the phone?
[24:45.780 --> 24:48.360]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Or do you usually get an extraction report?
[24:49.240 --> 24:53.280]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: The days of getting a forensic image of a phone are long gone.
[24:53.460 --> 24:55.760]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It's just because of the way they've changed them and all the security.
[24:55.920 --> 24:58.440]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So we just call it a full file system extraction.
[24:58.620 --> 25:00.120]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's the best you're going to get these days.
[25:00.320 --> 25:08.580]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So is that any form of raw data or is it literally you're getting the report someone else basically generated?
[25:09.260 --> 25:10.720]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It's not a report.
[25:10.960 --> 25:19.120]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It is more of the raw data, but you're not going to have like you might get on a hard drive or you could have like what's known as drive-free space.
[25:20.560 --> 25:24.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Okay, so can that data be altered?
[25:25.560 --> 25:31.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So is it possible the extraction report you're getting is altered in some way or no because you're getting raw data?
[25:35.140 --> 25:39.220]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I wouldn't... I mean, I wouldn't expect it to be altered.
[25:39.340 --> 25:40.220]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: They give us the report.
[25:40.340 --> 25:49.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: We check the so, you know, when they because they give us an extraction report gives a hash of what the extraction hash was and then we look for that to match.
[25:50.260 --> 26:00.120]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And as long as that matches where you say nothing has changed on that extraction between when it was extracted with the tool and between when it was given to me.
[26:00.400 --> 26:05.800]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Now what a person does on the phone, that's always changing information on the phone.
[26:05.800 --> 26:11.140]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And sometimes you do have to interact with the phone to get that extraction off.
[26:11.820 --> 26:20.960]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I want to nail down on this just a little bit if you don't mind, just because this is a little bit technical and it took a while for me to kind of understand, you know, what a hash is.
[26:21.160 --> 26:24.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so first off, correct me if I have any of this wrong.
[26:25.000 --> 26:42.200]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: My understanding of how that works is that what they're doing is they run the extraction and there's an encrypted sort of digital code that is created that is connected with that.
[26:42.380 --> 26:54.680]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And then that correlates to basically the data that gets fed into whatever software is being used to process and read that and generate a report.
[26:55.140 --> 27:02.860]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so you can tell from that whether that aligns with the original extraction that was performed.
[27:03.320 --> 27:07.380]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Is that sort of off or close enough?
[27:10.980 --> 27:16.880]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: The simplest way to think of it is that hashing is just a mathematical algorithm.
[27:17.100 --> 27:31.220]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so you just feed your data in, whatever it is, it can be a file, it can be a whole forensic image, and then it does its counting kind of, you know, it's an algorithm, it's math, and then it spits out a long number at the end of it.
[27:31.880 --> 27:41.560]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then as long as nothing has changed, not even one single bit, like you can't even change one letter, then it will always come out with that same hash, that same long number.
[27:41.820 --> 27:44.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: If you change something, then it's going to be different.
[27:45.120 --> 27:58.440]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Okay, so then my question is, is that hash generated at the moment of extraction, or is it something that the extractor will have some kind of control over when that's done?
[27:59.300 --> 28:04.700]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It's done automatically as part of the extraction is being done with the tool.
[28:04.820 --> 28:14.840]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So it grabs everything off, it puts it in a zip file, and then once that's done, then the tool goes through and generates a hash for that zip file of that extraction.
[28:15.420 --> 28:31.380]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Okay, and so that I think is the key point here, because if we were going to extract data from the phone and then try to alter that, from what you're saying, the hash would have been generated at the time of the extraction.
[28:31.760 --> 28:42.140]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so if I go then and try to alter that data after the fact or something, if I knew how to do that, it would show up because the hash would no longer match.
[28:42.900 --> 28:43.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Right.
[28:43.860 --> 28:44.240]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Okay.
[28:44.240 --> 28:57.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: And so just because I have to assume that there are many people out there that are kind of listening to some of the technical terms that we're using, and having no idea what any of it means.
[28:57.940 --> 29:09.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I thought that you did an excellent job at trial in terms of because I always say, one of the most important elements of any really, really good expert is being able to dumb it down for all us folks.
[29:09.360 --> 29:12.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: They have no idea what you're talking about, so that we can understand it.
[29:12.380 --> 29:32.100]  [BOB MOTTA]: So can you kind of explain in terms of, and I love when you use kind of that under the hood analogy with respect to knowledge, but can you kind of go through briefly and just explain what the different types of databases are that exist and what we now have access to in terms of these extractions?
[29:33.360 --> 29:33.880]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Absolutely.
[29:34.260 --> 29:40.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So basically everything on your iPhone is going to be stored in a database.
[29:40.380 --> 29:42.020]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's how it's organized.
[29:42.280 --> 29:47.700]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's how it's keeping track of everything, what you're doing, where it's saved at.
[29:48.540 --> 29:57.100]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so the main databases involved in this case were the Knowledge C, and that tracks a whole wealth of information.
[29:57.640 --> 30:05.620]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It has like your charging state, the audio, that output that you're using, you know, like are you on your Bluetooth, your wired headphones.
[30:05.620 --> 30:10.180]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It even has your battery percentage, like how fully charged are you.
[30:10.760 --> 30:21.300]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It logs when you're locking and unlocking your phone, if your phone screen is lit up, the apps that you're using, which app is on top, which app are you looking at right now.
[30:21.720 --> 30:25.460]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So that one is a treasure trove of knowledge always for us.
[30:25.920 --> 30:38.020]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Another good one is the Interaction C, and that's kind of like what are you interacting with, what are your contacts, what are you doing with the apps as well.
[30:38.200 --> 30:42.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then we talked about the Current Parallelog, well that's more of a log than a database.
[30:43.180 --> 31:00.360]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then there is of course the Apple Health Data, and that's logging your steps, your distance, your elevations going up, and there are some other databases related to Apple Health that I didn't get a chance to discuss in court.
[31:01.920 --> 31:18.620]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So with Apple Health, so one of our members had said that with newer iPhones at least, that steps taken in health data can take sometimes three to seven minutes to update.
[31:18.840 --> 31:20.740]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Is that your experience?
[31:22.740 --> 31:31.620]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I didn't really do a whole lot of research onto the newer stuff because I was looking at this for the old iPhone 6, I mean it's old to us now.
[31:32.940 --> 31:43.780]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But what I will see about Apple Health Data is Apple is a closed system, it's all proprietary, they don't publish how any of this works.
[31:44.580 --> 31:51.340]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so to what your user said, now they've noticed like it maybe takes a few minutes for it to kick in.
[31:51.500 --> 32:03.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And anything that we say about Apple Health is either through other forensic examiners or forensics institutes doing the research and meticulously documenting it and then sharing their results.
[32:04.340 --> 32:20.800]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: All right, because her her kind of question with that was like is it if, would the information have updated like if the phone got powered off, which I think you're saying there's no evidence that the phone got powered off, right?
[32:21.720 --> 32:28.640]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I found no evidence that the phone powered off until 4.33 am on the next morning.
[32:28.780 --> 32:33.040]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It was on that whole time based on what was available to me at the time of my exam.
[32:33.760 --> 32:49.540]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And if it had somehow powered off or shut down or whatever, is it possible that there were like steps that would be missing if the phone had like shut off right after them?
[32:50.300 --> 32:56.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And if that's the case, would they then get accounted for once it got turned on or would it be lost information?
[32:58.360 --> 32:59.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Wow, what a kind of words.
[33:04.740 --> 33:12.600]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So what I'll say is you notice like when you shut down your phone, it kind of takes a little bit like, you know, it just doesn't go off like that.
[33:12.680 --> 33:16.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So it's definitely doing stuff with the databases and writing stuff.
[33:16.940 --> 33:21.320]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It does cache some database information.
[33:21.540 --> 33:31.280]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: There's certainly temporary places for that to be stored as to whether or not, you know, it was just gone forever or got saved later.
[33:31.880 --> 33:34.040]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I'm not even going to attempt to comment on that.
[33:34.300 --> 33:38.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Part of the hardship of it being Apple's proprietary functionings.
[33:39.020 --> 33:39.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yes.
[33:39.300 --> 33:39.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Right.
[33:40.340 --> 33:53.840]  [BOB MOTTA]: So let me ask you this in terms of kind of your determination that you saw no evidence that the phone had been turned off until that 433 when we get, which we're going to get to when we get the flood of text messages that come in.
[33:54.040 --> 34:05.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: Did you see anything specifically in the interim, in between the period of time that the state claims the last movement was made on the phone and that 433 a.m.
[34:05.540 --> 34:09.600]  [BOB MOTTA]: that gave you a good indication that the phone was still operating?
[34:10.640 --> 34:21.760]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Well, yeah, one of the biggest ones was that AUX input change where it was logged that something was plugged into and then pulled out of that AUX input port.
[34:21.960 --> 34:32.340]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And when I say that, I mean, the little hole at the bottom of the iPhone where you can plug in, you know, your headphones back when we used to have to use cables like this all the time.
[34:32.480 --> 34:34.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That was the option on that iPhone 6.
[34:35.320 --> 34:35.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[34:35.780 --> 34:41.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: For all the young heads out there back in the old days, they used to have an AUX, an AUX port that you used to plug in.
[34:41.860 --> 34:44.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: They don't have that anymore on iPhones.
[34:46.240 --> 34:51.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, I mean, do we want to start getting into that right now or do we want to, do we want to wait?
[34:51.420 --> 34:57.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: That is a whole, that is a whole area that I want to spend a fair amount of time on.
[34:57.440 --> 34:59.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: Then back up and touch on something else.
[35:00.140 --> 35:03.740]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Well, I have another, I have a question that's kind of related to this.
[35:03.920 --> 35:07.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: How do we know the phone was on or off for, you know, at what time?
[35:07.720 --> 35:22.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And one of the things I remember that I think it was explored mostly when you were on cross-examination, but it had to do with the phone, the phone's connectivity and when it was in service, when it was not in service.
[35:22.620 --> 35:33.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I remember that in your direct, one of the things that was displayed was some of the AT&T ping and locate the location info for the phone.
[35:34.060 --> 35:46.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But I don't recall like any specific, like information that that was brought out for, like it wasn't to establish a certain location at a certain time or anything like that.
[35:46.640 --> 35:59.880]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But I do recall this testimony on cross that the phone had basically been kind of in and out of service between 2.32 when it stopped moving for the last time and then 5.35.
[36:00.260 --> 36:06.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And it was after 5.35 that then it was like completely out of service consistently.
[36:07.380 --> 36:17.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so if it seems to me, if the phone is in and out of service, the phone would have to be on at least, you know, for some periods of time.
[36:19.200 --> 36:40.580]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And I was wondering if there was anything from your review of the location data, the app data, things that were happening on the phone, anything like that, that would suggest any kind of activity on the phone during that 2.32 to 5.35 time frame, or if we literally just have like,
[36:40.620 --> 36:44.860]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: it's connecting, it's disconnecting, it's connecting, it's disconnecting kind of situation.
[36:46.100 --> 36:59.700]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Well, one of the things I clearly remember when I testified is that I did disagree with some of the timestamps that the state was using for phone calls and iMessages and FaceTime calls being received.
[36:59.860 --> 37:08.600]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And it's documented incorrectly on their timeline because they were using the server times instead of the phone times.
[37:09.200 --> 37:19.120]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so that misdocumentation makes it look a lot more like the phone was going in and out of service because of that.
[37:19.900 --> 37:20.220]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I see.
[37:20.980 --> 37:21.600]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I see.
[37:21.880 --> 37:35.640]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Was there anything that you recall from what you were looking at with that AT&T connection log that kind of confirmed what the signal status was or could have been at that point?
[37:36.760 --> 37:47.200]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I also recall that one of the last pings that AT&T had matched up with one of the last data connections that I saw on the phone.
[37:47.700 --> 37:51.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I don't remember the specific time of that, but that was on the 13th.
[37:52.140 --> 38:17.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: And so let me ask you about... so when you were originally retained by the defense, one of their primary goals was to have you try to figure out exactly how a phone could... that was clearly in an area where maybe signals come and go, but that clearly you can get a signal back there.
[38:18.060 --> 38:18.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: I was back there.
[38:19.380 --> 38:23.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't know that they put any more towers up since 2017.
[38:24.040 --> 38:27.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: And some of the witnesses made phone calls from that very area.
[38:27.700 --> 38:27.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: Exactly.
[38:28.280 --> 38:30.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, we know Derek German made a call from back there.
[38:31.140 --> 38:33.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: I think that Becky Patty may have also made...
[38:33.340 --> 38:44.760]  [BOB MOTTA]: so I mean... but that was one of the primary things they wanted you to try to figure out is why was there this 11-hour gap in terms of no service?
[38:45.420 --> 38:50.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: And especially in light of the fact that we knew that AT&T was trying to ping that phone, right?
[38:51.020 --> 38:55.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: So that was one of the primary things that they had retained you for.
[38:55.360 --> 38:57.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: And did you ever come up with any kind of an answer?
[38:58.940 --> 39:05.880]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: The only answer that I came up with was that something external to the phone changed.
[39:06.040 --> 39:15.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Because based on the logs and information and everything that was on that extraction that I was provided, there was nothing to indicate something changed on the phone.
[39:16.040 --> 39:22.920]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So could that be a blocking, like a fairway bag or a blocking signal blocker?
[39:23.500 --> 39:25.880]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Could something like that be the answer?
[39:26.520 --> 39:26.780]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Sure.
[39:26.860 --> 39:30.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: There's lots of things that block cell phone signals, you know.
[39:30.100 --> 39:37.820]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And I mentioned if you're in a lot of concrete, if you're in an elevator, a metal box, that's going to block your signal as well.
[39:38.920 --> 39:47.020]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I was going to say one of the other variables in this too would be the tower and the tower operationality.
[39:47.760 --> 39:53.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And it sounded from what I understood that that was something that the FBI is primarily going to do.
[39:54.100 --> 40:02.940]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They can go do drive test data or there's I guess other information they could get from AT&T that might shed some light on that.
[40:03.340 --> 40:11.060]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But we already heard from other parts of the trial that there was kind of some iffiness with the FBI's involvement in this investigation.
[40:11.380 --> 40:17.760]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And eventually, you know, they were asked to leave by the ISP head.
[40:19.120 --> 40:23.740]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so it certainly looked like none of that was ever done.
[40:24.100 --> 40:31.220]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Was there anything that you saw in what you reviewed that indicated any kind of effort to evaluate?
[40:31.540 --> 40:37.040]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Was there some kind of tower related issue that could have affected the signal?
[40:37.880 --> 40:40.520]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I didn't see any evaluations like that.
[40:40.640 --> 40:46.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It was mostly the raw data that was provided by AT&T.
[40:47.620 --> 41:00.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, would you have... had they done any kind of drive time testing, would you think that you would have received that from them in order to, you know, really be able to do your examination?
[41:01.300 --> 41:03.580]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, I guess I'm asking, do you typically...
[41:04.340 --> 41:11.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: if that has occurred in a case that you're working on and they've done, you know, that type of evaluation, do you typically get that?
[41:13.200 --> 41:19.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Well, law enforcement would be the ones responsible for doing that, you know, as close as possible to the date of the incident.
[41:20.260 --> 41:24.680]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then I would say rarely am I given that information.
[41:24.940 --> 41:31.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Sometimes I am because it's more of just a cooperation, like, do you see this pinging?
[41:31.340 --> 41:32.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Do you see data going out?
[41:32.560 --> 41:35.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And that's kind of more of what I do with it.
[41:36.520 --> 41:42.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I mean, it seems like an important explanatory piece of information, just from my perspective.
[41:42.120 --> 41:51.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If you can rule out that there was a tower problem, then that helps you narrow the range of possibilities for why the phone was behaving the way that it was.
[41:52.320 --> 42:00.240]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If you can identify that there's clearly problems, then, you know, that gives you a potential explanation for why it is.
[42:00.840 --> 42:07.000]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If you were running the investigation, is that something you would want to do?
[42:09.100 --> 42:09.500]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah.
[42:10.520 --> 42:22.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I mean, you would want to collect all the possible data points, and you want to have more data rather than less, so you can say, oh, I got data from the cell phone tower, I got data from the cell phone, and it matches.
[42:23.760 --> 42:24.760]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's what you want to do.
[42:24.880 --> 42:26.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You want to correlate everything together.
[42:26.980 --> 42:30.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You can't just take one thing out of context by itself.
[42:30.600 --> 42:39.480]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So, could an explanation for... all right, if you're in like a signal blocker or a fairway bag or whatever kind of device... Faraday.
[42:39.820 --> 42:40.360]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Faraday.
[42:40.720 --> 42:53.640]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Whatever kind of devices are out there, would one of those devices also block things like your steps and your health data, your backlight on the phone, things like that?
[42:53.680 --> 42:59.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Or that wouldn't explain anything, reach all those different levels?
[43:01.080 --> 43:07.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Any type of signal blocker, it's literally just blocking your antenna on your phone, so you can't get to the cell phone tower or the Wi-Fi.
[43:08.120 --> 43:11.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It's not affecting the function of the phone itself.
[43:12.020 --> 43:19.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So there is nothing that affects the function of the phone itself so that your phone is like not usable kind of thing?
[43:20.180 --> 43:25.760]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: No, it'd only be like an EMP or something crazy like that, but then your phone wouldn't work after the fact either.
[43:26.240 --> 43:34.020]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So like apps, for example, some apps require that you be connected in order for them to be able to function.
[43:34.360 --> 43:41.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If the phone is not connecting to the network, there could be some apps maybe that wouldn't operate.
[43:42.160 --> 43:45.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's not that they wouldn't record data, it's that you wouldn't be able to use them at all.
[43:46.000 --> 43:55.380]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But as far as internal things that the phone itself is doing, that you don't have to run an app to be able to do, those would continue to function.
[43:55.520 --> 43:58.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Is that a fair kind of distinction between those things?
[43:59.360 --> 44:02.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah, just think of it like when you put your phone on airplane mode.
[44:02.320 --> 44:03.260]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You can still watch a movie.
[44:03.640 --> 44:05.740]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You can still use your phone, you just can't surf the internet.
[44:08.300 --> 44:18.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So for the Blacklight, was that something, the backlit going on or off, was that data included in what they provided?
[44:18.080 --> 44:20.500]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yes, I did have the backlight data.
[44:20.680 --> 44:27.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And I was trying to use that to figure out what was going on, what happened at 433, was there human interaction?
[44:29.380 --> 44:32.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: And let me ask you this, this is a hypothetical but not really.
[44:33.080 --> 44:37.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: So say for instance, a human body was on top of the phone.
[44:38.220 --> 44:45.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: And in your experience, would that be something that would block a signal, potentially?
[44:46.420 --> 44:53.420]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I testified like I've sat, I can sit on my phone and I can receive a signal and I can receive a call, a text.
[44:53.540 --> 44:54.440]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: We all sit on our phones.
[44:55.040 --> 44:55.140]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Right.
[44:55.780 --> 45:10.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I guess the follow-up would have been like, had the answer been yes, the follow-up question would have been, well, then what would have had to have changed in order for that phone to start then getting a signal at 433?
[45:11.160 --> 45:18.100]  [BOB MOTTA]: So all right, I want to hop back real quickly just to the Apple health data now.
[45:18.220 --> 45:32.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it's a bone of contention with me because what the state was claiming at trial was that the Apple health data, when they talk about the elevation changes, they're talking about going down.
[45:33.020 --> 45:39.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: Now, is it a fact that Apple health data only records when you're going up or is it up and down?
[45:40.960 --> 45:51.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: The Apple health database records, records elevation only, and elevation is going up.
[45:51.180 --> 45:59.040]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I'm trying to, and let's just say descents are logged somewhere else.
[45:59.860 --> 46:00.820]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Okay.
[46:00.980 --> 46:03.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And I didn't get to talk about that.
[46:03.400 --> 46:05.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Can you talk about that now?
[46:10.240 --> 46:15.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I'll say it like I tried to introduce it and the prosecution was like, yeah, yeah, we'll get back to that.
[46:15.040 --> 46:22.740]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And he never looped back around and I didn't get looped back around either, but I don't want to give it away.
[46:23.520 --> 46:23.740]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah.
[46:23.920 --> 46:33.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Cause I mean, I remember it sounds like part of the issue had been that the data suggested there was a 20 foot change in elevation.
[46:34.180 --> 46:51.600]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And that was kind of a point of contention because we're looking at what's the elevation from the top of the bridge to the water where supposedly the girls would have been moments later and taken across the Creek to the other side.
[46:51.800 --> 46:57.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And that seemed to be significantly more than 20 feet, than two stories.
[46:57.260 --> 47:01.000]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And we had some measurement information just there.
[47:01.940 --> 47:10.480]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so that was kind of part of the bone that I had with it in the first place was, you know, it doesn't even add up with the state's theory.
[47:10.800 --> 47:18.880]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So I'd like to ask a little bit about the reliability because, okay, I'm a defense lawyer, always lay that out there.
[47:19.040 --> 47:27.800]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I got my own perspectives on things, but one of those perspectives is that when this data works for the state, it will be the most reliable thing you've ever heard of.
[47:27.800 --> 47:30.860]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And when it doesn't, you know, now, now suddenly it's full of problems.
[47:31.100 --> 47:36.260]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So can you give me a straight answer on how good this stuff is?
[47:38.340 --> 47:39.300]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It depends.
[47:40.960 --> 47:43.500]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's a great lawyer will love that answer.
[47:44.040 --> 47:48.780]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Well, I mean, that's just the way it is because like, we, you know, we don't have the specs.
[47:49.360 --> 47:51.780]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Apple's never testified to how it works.
[47:51.780 --> 48:04.980]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so it's just from experimentation, I would say, you know, like anything, the more steady something is for a longer period of time, the more reliable it is.
[48:05.040 --> 48:13.040]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But if something's, you know, a little bit here, a little bit there, and then some time goes by and a little bit more, I mean, it's kind of all over the place.
[48:13.100 --> 48:16.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So it's hard to, you have good data points.
[48:16.860 --> 48:28.040]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I'd say it's a tool that can help, but just some steps by themselves shouldn't be your only go to in the case, you should look for more information to verify that.
[48:28.800 --> 48:28.800]  Sure.
[48:29.300 --> 48:40.580]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And I would imagine that's something too, that as as the hardware changes in the different phones, and as the software different versions come out, you're going to have different, different quality of information pretty much every time.
[48:40.580 --> 48:53.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So unless you're running tests back on the, you know, OS six, on this particular type of phone, it's going to be hard to say with any certainty how, you know, what the, what the range of accuracy is or anything like that.
[48:53.960 --> 48:59.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah, you've got to go back and get the same stuff that's involved in the case.
[48:59.580 --> 49:04.020]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I can't use a new iPhone from today to demonstrate my point in this case.
[49:04.360 --> 49:25.360]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So just because I know that I forgot to ask something and we're moving on to different, a different sort of different topics, but kind of jumping back to the extraction, the full file extraction, are, are, are you limited or is it limited to the parameters that the person put in when it pulled the full file?
[49:25.540 --> 49:28.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Or is it literally a full file?
[49:28.420 --> 49:33.000]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And the user has no ability to say, don't include this, do include that.
[49:34.340 --> 49:37.340]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: If you pick full file system, that's what you pick.
[49:37.380 --> 49:41.960]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You, if you want to pick other stuff, that's, that's, that's after the fact.
[49:42.040 --> 49:45.580]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So you just say like, I want a logical, I want a full file system.
[49:46.240 --> 49:49.620]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So if you get full file, that's everything.
[49:50.000 --> 49:52.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's, it's everything that the tool can get at the time.
[49:53.220 --> 49:53.700]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Okay.
[49:54.360 --> 49:54.880]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[49:54.880 --> 50:02.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: Now I'm going to jump back to the, to the elevation thing because, no, no, like whenever we have questions, let's jump in.
[50:02.720 --> 50:07.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, we only need to be sorry to Stacey because we're hammering her from all sides.
[50:07.420 --> 50:23.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: But so as far as the elevation change, because remember the concept is that, that the girls went down the hill and that allegedly took place at 2 31 PM that that's when they have them going down the hill.
[50:23.200 --> 50:30.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: Now that we know that elevation change is only going to relate to going up where your elevations going up.
[50:30.160 --> 50:36.040]  [BOB MOTTA]: So we can then take, take out that as a factor that that was them going down the hill.
[50:36.220 --> 50:37.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: It wouldn't correlate with down the hill.
[50:37.640 --> 50:38.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: Correct.
[50:38.200 --> 50:40.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: It does not correlate at all to down the hill.
[50:40.480 --> 50:43.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: So then, and I'm familiar with the area.
[50:43.700 --> 50:48.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't see, it's flat when you get across the Creek.
[50:48.600 --> 50:55.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, maybe there's a slight incline getting in over on their side, but it certainly isn't going to be 20 feet.
[50:56.360 --> 51:02.480]  [BOB MOTTA]: So like, I just like, they just, it bugs the hell out of me in terms of kind of their theory.
[51:02.660 --> 51:12.840]  [BOB MOTTA]: And, and I know that you were shut down in terms of things that you probably would have wanted to get in, in terms of evidence and that you're not necessarily going to be able to get in now.
[51:13.040 --> 51:19.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: But I mean, we're, we're things like that, things that you were looking at and you're like, well, you know, this is problematic.
[51:20.620 --> 51:31.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: And then you were just finding resistance in terms of the state either objecting or finding out that those particular things weren't going to be brought up during direct examination.
[51:34.020 --> 51:38.560]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I was really kind of closed off from a lot of the case.
[51:38.760 --> 51:53.160]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Like, I don't know, even now, like I'm probably learning more in this conversation about the case than I knew when I went to trial, but it was just sort of like, you know, there was a murder of two young ladies.
[51:53.560 --> 51:55.360]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: This was the phone that belonged to one of them.
[51:56.000 --> 52:02.140]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: They were found by a bridge, by a river, the phone was under a shoe.
[52:03.340 --> 52:07.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then I did hear some discussion of like, were they going up or down?
[52:07.420 --> 52:09.980]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And the defense did ask me like, okay, what is elevation?
[52:10.320 --> 52:16.140]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You know, and I did research and determine factually that elevation goes up.
[52:16.600 --> 52:22.580]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then we've looked a little bit at like some of the distances, you know, I provided them that information.
[52:24.660 --> 52:35.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But some of the other stuff, if I would have known more about the case, I feel like with, of course, 2020 Hyden's side, I would have looked at some other things and brought some other details to the defense.
[52:36.320 --> 52:36.560]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Right.
[52:36.600 --> 52:37.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Got it.
[52:37.520 --> 52:52.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So it's, and we're not going to probe you because like you said, you're going to save it for a new trial or a post-conviction petition or whatever, but it sounds like what you were saying is there was other data in the phone that would have contradicted the state's theory.
[52:52.980 --> 53:03.740]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Had you known fully what everything was that you could have raised other data points that would have been beneficial to the defense without telling us what they are.
[53:04.500 --> 53:04.600]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[53:04.660 --> 53:06.740]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: There's more data that could have been shared in court.
[53:09.740 --> 53:10.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: Okay.
[53:10.180 --> 53:12.800]  [BOB MOTTA]: So go, do you got one?
[53:13.320 --> 53:17.140]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Well, I was just going to, I was just going to explore that.
[53:19.020 --> 53:24.040]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But it just now, cause this actually, this relates to one of my, one of my big grievances.
[53:24.440 --> 53:38.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Stacey, I talked so much about junk science on my channel and in, and in just, you know, criminal work and stuff in general, we deal with a lot of it all the way back to, you know, national Academy of the sciences, like 20 years ago, just about now.
[53:38.440 --> 53:45.920]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: A lot of criticism of a lot of different techniques, cell phone forensics, not really one of the ones that, that gets subject to a lot of criticism.
[53:46.360 --> 54:10.920]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But in general, there is, you know, one of the problems is the potential for bias and just the more extraneous information that an expert, an analyst has besides the specific topic that they're being asked to, to give an opinion on the greater chance there is that that can potentially affect their,
[54:11.120 --> 54:12.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: their perception and their analysis.
[54:12.640 --> 54:35.680]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so I'm just wondering if that is part of the reason why you know, you, you, you have limited access to other information about the case, if it was for other reasons or just kind of in general, what your thoughts are about that, the idea that it should be as much of a black box as possible with objective scientific testing.
[54:38.040 --> 54:42.020]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I agree that bias is definitely a huge concern.
[54:42.040 --> 54:49.200]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And that's why like, personally, I don't follow the news of any cases because I want to be able to take whatever case comes my way.
[54:49.500 --> 54:54.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So definitely there's value in not watching all of this stuff to come in with preformed notions.
[54:54.520 --> 54:55.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You want to just look at the facts.
[54:56.260 --> 55:12.220]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But I think there has to be a fine line because if you would tell me that the state is saying bodies were drugged through the water, I might have taken that into consideration when looking for facts on the phone.
[55:13.880 --> 55:15.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like such as water damage.
[55:15.720 --> 55:16.320]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Right.
[55:20.340 --> 55:36.280]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I'm sorry, Bob, if I can, if I can just continue for just a, just a minute to one of the issues that came up as well on, on cross-examination that I think maybe, maybe is related to this is the suggestion that, you know, because you were limited in the scope of,
[55:36.340 --> 55:48.260]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: of what you were asked to look at, you had these very specific objectives for, for your, your part of your work that, you know, that suggested somehow it's being steered, you know, by the defense or something like that.
[55:48.360 --> 55:51.140]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's a fairly classic impeachment type of strategy.
[55:52.320 --> 56:04.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Me being a public defender, this also grates on me because I have experience with judges who may or may not give the defense money to be able to do what they want for what they want with whom they want and so forth.
[56:05.060 --> 56:20.280]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Were you aware of any kind of budget constraints or limitations on the defense and whether or not that had any influence over the scope of what you did and, and any potential follow-up and things like that?
[56:22.540 --> 56:22.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah.
[56:22.940 --> 56:27.920]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So when she first contacted me to take the case, it was like, okay, well, how much, how much is your rate?
[56:28.080 --> 56:31.440]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Well what if this is our budget, how many hours?
[56:31.600 --> 56:35.240]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So, you know, it was definitely a factor from the beginning.
[56:35.720 --> 56:38.720]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so, you know, we're going to start with X number of hours.
[56:39.220 --> 56:40.820]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: What are your top priorities?
[56:41.120 --> 56:47.100]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It's not like we had an unlimited police force with unlimited hours and seven years to work on this.
[56:47.980 --> 56:54.200]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So we prioritize, but even in the midst of prioritizing, it's, it wasn't still that narrow.
[56:54.320 --> 57:06.520]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I still had to go backwards through a lot of the data because yes, 433EB was a key data point, but I still went backwards through earlier in the 13th.
[57:06.520 --> 57:08.480]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then there was a big gap.
[57:08.760 --> 57:15.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I, you know, I burned through the money and I shouldn't say that, you know, but I, I worked and did as much as I could for what was paid.
[57:16.080 --> 57:18.840]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then I said, okay, this is what I have so far.
[57:18.960 --> 57:20.220]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Do you want more?
[57:20.240 --> 57:22.100]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And they're like, yes, we got to find more money.
[57:22.100 --> 57:29.020]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then I would say it was probably like three plus weeks went by before they were able to get more funding to continue working on this.
[57:30.320 --> 57:32.880]  [BOB MOTTA]: And that, and that's late in the game, you know?
[57:33.120 --> 57:42.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, and I, and I think, do you think that you ended up getting the funding from the, the money that was raised from the fundraiser?
[57:43.040 --> 57:47.600]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That was the first payment I got was from the fundraiser.
[57:47.780 --> 57:58.740]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then after that, I didn't get paid until after the trial and the state still owes me money today.
[58:00.640 --> 58:06.320]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Is this, has this, I mean, is this, is this typical from your experience as a consultant?
[58:06.680 --> 58:16.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Have you had an experience like this in terms of limitations placed on the scope of what you're able to do for budgetary reasons and then problems with getting paid?
[58:17.300 --> 58:20.680]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I haven't had the problems getting paid.
[58:21.260 --> 58:25.920]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Most of the time they come forward and say, like, Hey, we got 40 hours or 80 hours.
[58:25.920 --> 58:28.500]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then we just, they're like limited from the get go.
[58:28.520 --> 58:30.260]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then we just work within that limitation.
[58:33.420 --> 58:33.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[58:34.700 --> 58:52.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: So I just want to touch upon the concept before we kind of slip into what I considered to be the smoking gun, which was that the headphone port was activated and or accessed, whatever, however you want to term it.
[58:52.660 --> 59:10.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: But in terms of the, like the water damage, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, typically on an iPhone, because like I've had very minimal water damage when I've tried to take my phone in to exchange it and somehow they always know like instantaneously.
[59:10.960 --> 59:14.760]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I'm talking like my phone was sitting on like my counter and I'm doing the dishes.
[59:14.820 --> 59:16.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I got like a little bit of water on the phone.
[59:17.040 --> 59:19.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: I'm not talking about like I dove in a pool with my phone.
[59:20.600 --> 59:27.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: Is there some very, very easy way to tell externally on the phone that there has been water damage?
[59:27.580 --> 59:34.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: And then additionally, is there a way internally that you're able to see whether or not there was water damage on the phone?
[59:35.840 --> 59:40.240]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So there are ways to tell externally and internally if there is water damage.
[59:40.320 --> 59:44.920]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And that's what Apple uses when you bring it into the store to say, this doesn't cover it under your warranty.
[59:45.820 --> 59:59.280]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then I would also expect to see water damage logged on the phone somewhere in terms of like the logs databases, because it gives you a notification and those notifications are logged somewhere.
[01:00:00.180 --> 01:00:06.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So in the full file extraction, is there a log that either says no damage or damage?
[01:00:07.660 --> 01:00:09.600]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: No, there's no log like that.
[01:00:09.680 --> 01:00:14.960]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It would just be catching it through the notification that pops up to the user that you see on your phone.
[01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:16.200]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Okay.
[01:00:16.300 --> 01:00:26.440]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So no damage, you wouldn't see any evidence of that, but damage, there would be a documentary data point that you would be able to correlate that with.
[01:00:27.340 --> 01:00:27.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yes.
[01:00:28.060 --> 01:00:31.500]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But again, how long it lasts, when is it wiped out?
[01:00:32.140 --> 01:00:32.640]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I don't know.
[01:00:35.140 --> 01:00:35.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Hmm.
[01:00:37.580 --> 01:00:53.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So, but the, now let's talk about when you get it, typically get a report from law enforcement of whoever took possession of the phone or evaluated the phone before they did the actual extraction.
[01:00:54.020 --> 01:01:01.000]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Does that have like, it typically say, I examined the exterior of the phone?
[01:01:02.560 --> 01:01:05.160]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: You know, there was no water damage noted on the phone.
[01:01:06.660 --> 01:01:10.360]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Normally it's when something abnormal is present that it's documented.
[01:01:10.580 --> 01:01:13.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I would expect to see it on a chain of custody.
[01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:15.980]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You know, I received a wet, muddy phone.
[01:01:16.620 --> 01:01:18.160]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That would be part of the description.
[01:01:18.440 --> 01:01:23.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I would also expect them to document it in their notes and in their written reports.
[01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:28.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: That the phone is demonstrating the external whatever shows water damage.
[01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:33.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Well, they would just say like, I got it and it was wet and dirty and muddy and all that stuff.
[01:01:33.480 --> 01:01:35.300]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You would just, you know, write that up.
[01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:46.440]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And you know, if you're having problems doing the extraction, as you would expect, if a phone is wet and dirty, you know, that you had to try it four or five, six times and you would just document that.
[01:01:46.520 --> 01:01:55.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And I would certainly document that in my written report as to why I kept like having to, you know, restart the extraction many, many times.
[01:01:56.520 --> 01:01:56.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Right.
[01:01:56.880 --> 01:02:18.720]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And would you say it's best practices to, if that little pink light or whatever is lit to say phone damage, water damage, that best practices would be for the law enforcement officer to write in the phone, write in his report that the phone has evidence of water damage from the indicator light or whatever it's called?
[01:02:19.480 --> 01:02:28.140]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: If law enforcement saw any notification that there was water damage, they should have taken a picture of it when they were taking the other pictures of the phone.
[01:02:28.340 --> 01:02:31.120]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It should have been documented with a picture and in writing.
[01:02:31.400 --> 01:02:32.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's best practice.
[01:02:34.180 --> 01:02:39.480]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And is the, is the little indicator like on mine, I think it's back here.
[01:02:39.600 --> 01:02:40.580]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: We'll get pink.
[01:02:40.740 --> 01:02:47.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I'm assuming that's it, unless that's something completely different, but it used to be like there was like a little thing on the, and it would turn pink.
[01:02:48.900 --> 01:02:53.440]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Is that how it worked on, at Libby's phone?
[01:02:54.380 --> 01:02:56.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: On the iPhone six, it's a little more old school.
[01:02:57.780 --> 01:02:58.300]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Okay.
[01:02:58.500 --> 01:02:59.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And I'll just leave it at that.
[01:03:00.600 --> 01:03:00.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[01:03:00.980 --> 01:03:04.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: So I, I've got a question and I just want to be able to check the box off.
[01:03:05.020 --> 01:03:26.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: So in a world in which the phone was submerged in water, because say for instance, two girls were led across a Creek and that phone did sustain water damage that somehow triggers the, the port three hours after they've crossed that Creek.
[01:03:26.560 --> 01:03:41.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: Is there a world in which, in what I'm assuming was probably low thirties overnight, that that phone could then dry out and then deactivate the port in your estimate?
[01:03:41.480 --> 01:03:42.800]  [BOB MOTTA]: And that might not be in your purview.
[01:03:42.940 --> 01:03:49.320]  [BOB MOTTA]: I know, I know like you're, you're more of the innards as opposed to the outards, but do you, do you know the answer to that question?
[01:03:50.860 --> 01:04:07.420]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so I had this in my affidavit based on all of my research, there is no known documentation of water damage, logging an ox import insertion, and then an ox import removal.
[01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:09.400]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Right.
[01:04:09.500 --> 01:04:13.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Because the removal, what does it say out or what is the...
[01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:16.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah, it says in and out in the log.
[01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:35.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So, because even assuming that that Google search was, was accurate, which I'm obviously not stating for this point, what I was screaming about during the trial was like, but that is not the answer to would the data say the wrong thing?
[01:04:36.240 --> 01:04:43.120]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Would your phone, would you not, you know, would you not be able to get sound because your phone thinks there's something plugged into it is one thing.
[01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:50.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: It's completely different to say that would cause the phone's data to, to misindicate.
[01:04:50.420 --> 01:04:55.500]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And there was zero, there wasn't even a hint of that because there was no way for him to know it.
[01:04:55.580 --> 01:04:56.780]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And it's all that mattered.
[01:04:57.900 --> 01:05:06.740]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: There's a world of difference between what you see and experience on your phone versus what it's logged, where it's logged and how it's logged.
[01:05:08.860 --> 01:05:09.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: Right.
[01:05:09.480 --> 01:05:12.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, because the problem with conviction stuff that we're...
[01:05:12.700 --> 01:05:12.700]  Yeah.
[01:05:12.900 --> 01:05:16.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: So I want to get it before we get into the Cecil search.
[01:05:16.260 --> 01:05:23.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: I want to talk about like, so why don't you just for those, because Andrea and I had the benefit of being there.
[01:05:23.520 --> 01:05:25.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: Andrea took amazing notes.
[01:05:25.420 --> 01:05:30.100]  [BOB MOTTA]: I took above average notes in terms of what was being said, but why don't...
[01:05:30.100 --> 01:05:32.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: Take notes from your testimony, Stacey.
[01:05:35.580 --> 01:05:38.320]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I've been reading through them again to refresh myself.
[01:05:40.660 --> 01:05:43.040]  [BOB MOTTA]: If Andrea was behind me, I'd be like, all right.
[01:05:43.100 --> 01:05:45.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: I like, I missed like the last six minutes.
[01:05:45.160 --> 01:05:46.580]  [BOB MOTTA]: She's like, oh, I've got it all.
[01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:48.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: It was unbelievable, really.
[01:05:48.820 --> 01:06:03.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: So in terms of kind of the ability to be able to know whether or not that, well, so why don't we skip all that?
[01:06:03.260 --> 01:06:04.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: Here's what I want you to do.
[01:06:04.340 --> 01:06:20.080]  [BOB MOTTA]: Would you just pretend that you're on the stand and I'm Jennifer Auger and I've just asked you what your finding was with respect to what you found in the database, which Cecil didn't know how to read.
[01:06:20.240 --> 01:06:23.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: He claims he saw it, but he didn't know what it meant.
[01:06:24.100 --> 01:06:26.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: So it's really the bombshell evidence of the case.
[01:06:27.060 --> 01:06:30.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: Just kind of reenact that for us in terms of what your testimony was.
[01:06:31.520 --> 01:06:36.220]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah, I think that came up under the, you know, do you disagree with some of the findings?
[01:06:36.420 --> 01:06:38.600]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And this was towards the end of it.
[01:06:38.640 --> 01:06:46.300]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And I said, you know, this information is on his timeline, but it's incomplete.
[01:06:47.140 --> 01:06:52.360]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It states right there on his timeline at 5.45 p.m.
[01:06:52.380 --> 01:06:55.620]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: local time, there was an aux input cable inserted.
[01:06:56.400 --> 01:07:02.880]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then later on his timeline, I don't know if he had it, but the removal is logged as 10.32 p.m.
[01:07:02.900 --> 01:07:12.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And that was just part of going through his timeline of events and the timeline and events that I could see on my side and figuring out what the heck was happening.
[01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:18.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And correct me if I'm wrong, there is absolutely no way to misconstrue like that.
[01:07:18.300 --> 01:07:21.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: It's literally in the report, aux in.
[01:07:21.400 --> 01:07:24.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So it's not like he was like, oh, I don't know what that means.
[01:07:26.260 --> 01:07:37.020]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So for me to view that I had to export the database out of my forensic tool and then open it and view it with a database viewer.
[01:07:37.420 --> 01:07:39.960]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then I had to go all the way down to the right.
[01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:44.260]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It was like, I don't know, 4,000 columns to the right at the very end.
[01:07:44.780 --> 01:07:46.880]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I'm exaggerating, but it's a lot of columns.
[01:07:47.300 --> 01:07:55.840]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And it said right there in English words, raw data, aux input cable in and out.
[01:07:56.040 --> 01:08:01.340]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Like I didn't have to take any extra steps to decode it, convert it or anything like that.
[01:08:01.420 --> 01:08:03.760]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It was just right there in plain English in the database.
[01:08:04.040 --> 01:08:07.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You just had to take the extra step and look at it.
[01:08:07.480 --> 01:08:12.100]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And he did identify that he actually saw that he just claimed to not know what it meant.
[01:08:12.180 --> 01:08:13.820]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Isn't that right?
[01:08:14.420 --> 01:08:23.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So, but, but, so my point is there's no way for him not to know what that meant based on, you just said in plain English, it said aux in.
[01:08:24.300 --> 01:08:24.740]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Right.
[01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:28.100]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So, wow.
[01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:31.520]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I, I, I don't think he looked at it.
[01:08:31.580 --> 01:08:38.440]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I don't think he went that far because you have to take that extra step and manually look at it or do a lot of scrolling.
[01:08:38.440 --> 01:08:41.920]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Except he, I thought he said that he actually saw it, but didn't know what it meant or something.
[01:08:42.120 --> 01:08:42.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah.
[01:08:42.220 --> 01:08:47.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: He, he testified that, um, the, like the research wasn't complete or, or something like that.
[01:08:47.860 --> 01:08:49.220]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It was like this mystery code.
[01:08:49.220 --> 01:08:52.080]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so he, yeah, he didn't have an opinion about it.
[01:08:52.520 --> 01:08:55.880]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's because he was looking in the wrong column of that row.
[01:08:56.660 --> 01:08:58.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: He didn't look far enough over.
[01:08:59.020 --> 01:08:59.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Okay.
[01:09:00.300 --> 01:09:08.540]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I mean, I, I was taking it more, you know, that he was intentionally leaving out evidence that would have contradicted the state's theory.
[01:09:09.040 --> 01:09:10.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I don't know.
[01:09:11.320 --> 01:09:16.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like massively contradicted the state's theory, like destroyed their entire theory of the case.
[01:09:16.900 --> 01:09:18.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: Oh, there's this bizarre code.
[01:09:18.620 --> 01:09:19.800]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't know what it means.
[01:09:19.860 --> 01:09:21.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: What does it mean aux in?
[01:09:24.640 --> 01:09:45.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, you know, cause I mean, my problem with, with Cecil in terms of just his either inability to, to maybe do a little bit of research to figure out what it meant when he, if he did in fact find it, because I don't know if I, I necessarily believe that he did see it.
[01:09:45.780 --> 01:09:49.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: I think that it may have come to his attention after he read your report.
[01:09:49.820 --> 01:09:53.480]  [BOB MOTTA]: Is what I, is what I think may, may be the case.
[01:09:53.940 --> 01:09:55.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: Well, I didn't write a report.
[01:09:55.660 --> 01:09:56.960]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: We didn't have time.
[01:09:57.260 --> 01:09:58.140]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: There you go.
[01:09:58.420 --> 01:10:00.100]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so I got hammered on that.
[01:10:00.540 --> 01:10:12.460]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But he did have in his written report where he was looking at that entry and he said one column, if it says, I might say zero one, and it might mean this or that, but I don't really know.
[01:10:13.780 --> 01:10:17.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But he, oh, so there really wasn't laid eyes on it.
[01:10:17.840 --> 01:10:18.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah.
[01:10:18.620 --> 01:10:20.780]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But he didn't look at all of it.
[01:10:21.460 --> 01:10:24.120]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So you're assuming he didn't look at all of it.
[01:10:24.460 --> 01:10:25.000]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I don't know.
[01:10:25.340 --> 01:10:32.520]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Based on his written report and his testimony that I saw, he looked at this much when he should have looked at this much.
[01:10:32.840 --> 01:10:34.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: That makes it so much worse.
[01:10:34.760 --> 01:10:38.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Or he looked at that much and decided that he was just going to write about this much.
[01:10:39.000 --> 01:10:39.620]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: One of the two.
[01:10:40.280 --> 01:10:40.820]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I don't know.
[01:10:42.400 --> 01:10:51.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, it's like that kind of plausible deniability that he was able to kind of put out there at trial was like stunning to me.
[01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:59.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: So as you sit in now, I want to talk a little bit about the Cecil search, which is what all of us call it these days.
[01:10:59.500 --> 01:11:12.580]  [BOB MOTTA]: So you're in the middle of this, this intense direct examination, this bombshell kind of like it's and I'm sitting there in the gallery, like watching and Andrea was sitting there too.
[01:11:12.780 --> 01:11:23.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: And when this thing kind of hits, when it takes hold and just drops into the courtroom and, and I can see I'm watching Nick McLeelan's face like very, very carefully.
[01:11:24.160 --> 01:11:28.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, and it just so happens that they find that that was a really good time to take a break.
[01:11:29.020 --> 01:11:30.840]  [BOB MOTTA]: We're going to take a break right now.
[01:11:30.880 --> 01:11:34.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I see, I see McLeelan talking to both Cecil.
[01:11:34.920 --> 01:11:39.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I think it was Holman pretty intently in that moment in time.
[01:11:39.420 --> 01:11:41.620]  [BOB MOTTA]: And now we all started to file out of the courtroom.
[01:11:41.800 --> 01:11:44.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: We come back 15 minutes later.
[01:11:44.860 --> 01:11:47.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: Lo and behold, I think you were done, correct?
[01:11:47.300 --> 01:11:49.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: Because they ended their testimony at that point.
[01:11:50.520 --> 01:11:54.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: So at that point, they, that was it.
[01:11:54.220 --> 01:12:00.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like, like they called it for that evening in terms of whether or not they're going to put anybody else on.
[01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:08.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: But somehow Cecil gets back on that stand because I didn't think that they ended their case in chief until the following morning.
[01:12:08.900 --> 01:12:10.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: So I like... Oh no, we're probably rebuttal.
[01:12:11.260 --> 01:12:16.540]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh no, we, the defense called him so that they couldn't have time to... Right.
[01:12:16.700 --> 01:12:20.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Because he didn't want him to have that extra time to come up with something.
[01:12:20.080 --> 01:12:20.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: Overnight.
[01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:21.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: Right.
[01:12:21.220 --> 01:12:21.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: Right.
[01:12:21.620 --> 01:12:22.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: Exactly.
[01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:24.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: So that's what, that's exactly what happened.
[01:12:24.640 --> 01:12:31.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: So they call Cecil up to the stand and then he says, Oh, uh, okay.
[01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:32.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:12:32.280 --> 01:12:34.580]  [BOB MOTTA]: I went out during the break and I Googled it.
[01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:41.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: If there's something that could cause like a false positive on a, on a headphone jack on an iPhone.
[01:12:41.540 --> 01:12:42.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: And then he says, yeah.
[01:12:42.540 --> 01:12:44.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I found it like right away.
[01:12:44.800 --> 01:12:45.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: Ajay objects.
[01:12:45.980 --> 01:12:50.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: There's some back and forth, like in terms of where it came from.
[01:12:50.380 --> 01:13:01.580]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I mean, when I Googled it, like after I stepped out of the courtroom 25 minutes later and I got it and it was some Apple, you know, like tech group thing.
[01:13:01.900 --> 01:13:02.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:13:02.160 --> 01:13:03.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: Apple discussion group.
[01:13:03.240 --> 01:13:04.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: It wasn't even like Apple.
[01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:05.560]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I see.
[01:13:05.880 --> 01:13:27.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: And so he testifies that, that, you know, either water or dirt can cause a positive, a false positive, uh, you know, to show up on the phone in terms of, but you know, and you don't have any time at that point in terms of like you back on to try to report him.
[01:13:27.980 --> 01:13:30.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: Cause you don't have the ability to be able to do it.
[01:13:30.940 --> 01:13:44.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: So like, what is going through your mind in that moment of time when he gets up there and just like says stuff with no real, it's like there, she was, you were seeing a lot of Ipsy Dixit in the, the Reed case.
[01:13:44.340 --> 01:13:54.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: And that was like a math Ipsy Dixit right there, which basically is Latin for, he just said shit without any kind of real substantial behind it.
[01:13:54.620 --> 01:13:57.040]  [BOB MOTTA]: So like, what are you thinking at that moment in time?
[01:13:58.080 --> 01:14:09.280]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I was sitting in the courtroom watching Mr. Cecil have his questions from Jennifer and he says, I Googled it.
[01:14:09.400 --> 01:14:11.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And then she comes back so hot.
[01:14:11.700 --> 01:14:17.420]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I was a little bit scared myself when she was asking him and I was on her side.
[01:14:17.580 --> 01:14:22.280]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I'm like, man, that, I mean, that's just not how we don't do it.
[01:14:22.300 --> 01:14:24.480]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: We just don't rely on a Google search.
[01:14:24.620 --> 01:14:26.480]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: We don't rely on Wikipedia.
[01:14:26.780 --> 01:14:28.040]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's not how we're trained.
[01:14:28.180 --> 01:14:29.680]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's not how we teach people.
[01:14:30.240 --> 01:14:36.720]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You know, you rely on forensic and accredited studies and research.
[01:14:37.280 --> 01:14:41.920]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But you know, if it's accredited research, that's the best thing you go to your peers.
[01:14:42.140 --> 01:14:42.980]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's a second best.
[01:14:43.100 --> 01:14:45.840]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You do your own research and meticulously document it.
[01:14:45.900 --> 01:14:46.960]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's the third best thing.
[01:14:47.300 --> 01:15:00.460]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But nothing he learned from Google, even assuming it was right, has any bearing on what the extraction report would read.
[01:15:00.660 --> 01:15:01.580]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Is that accurate?
[01:15:02.120 --> 01:15:02.340]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Right.
[01:15:02.460 --> 01:15:09.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: What you see and experience on your phone doesn't necessarily log like you think it might on the phone.
[01:15:10.780 --> 01:15:14.780]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Because that was issues where people were like, my sound won't work, you know?
[01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:18.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And the answer was, well, that could be that you've got something jammed in there.
[01:15:19.060 --> 01:15:22.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So your phone thinks that there's a headphone, whether it's right or wrong.
[01:15:22.380 --> 01:15:28.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: They were talking about the functionality of the phone, not the raw data as interpreted on an extraction report.
[01:15:29.080 --> 01:15:29.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:15:29.180 --> 01:15:35.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: You have a piece of rice stuck in the, uh, when you put your phone in water and you were trying to dry it out.
[01:15:36.060 --> 01:15:37.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: So that's why your headphones aren't working.
[01:15:38.140 --> 01:15:40.780]  [BOB MOTTA]: So as far as...
[01:15:40.780 --> 01:15:41.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: That's an actual thing.
[01:15:43.480 --> 01:15:55.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: The whole thing, it seems so ridiculous even at the time, because it was so obviously a forum for people who are users of iPhones and not people who are analysts and forensic examiners of iPhones.
[01:15:55.900 --> 01:15:59.300]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Like it is clearly not targeted to that type of information.
[01:16:00.080 --> 01:16:01.480]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I found that so frustrating.
[01:16:01.880 --> 01:16:02.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: It's for me.
[01:16:03.240 --> 01:16:06.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like it's for a guy like me who knows nothing about tech.
[01:16:06.540 --> 01:16:08.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: Who's like, why isn't my phone working?
[01:16:08.620 --> 01:16:09.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: And this is what's going on.
[01:16:10.060 --> 01:16:16.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I Google it and I go into that chat and it's like, Oh, you get somebody in there who might know what they're talking about.
[01:16:16.280 --> 01:16:16.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: And maybe they don't.
[01:16:18.120 --> 01:16:20.160]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Help me make my phone work again.
[01:16:20.420 --> 01:16:21.340]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: What should I do?
[01:16:21.460 --> 01:16:22.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: What can I try?
[01:16:22.060 --> 01:16:23.460]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's what support forums are.
[01:16:23.660 --> 01:16:25.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That is not what we're looking to do with forensics.
[01:16:25.900 --> 01:16:27.980]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: We're not trying to figure out how to make something work again.
[01:16:27.980 --> 01:16:29.840]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: We're trying to figure out what happened.
[01:16:29.920 --> 01:16:31.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: What are the facts that we can report on?
[01:16:32.460 --> 01:16:34.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Especially when a man's life hangs in the balance.
[01:16:35.460 --> 01:16:35.600]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Right.
[01:16:35.820 --> 01:16:53.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And as Bob just pointed out, in order for you to follow best practices and give it an in-depth opinion on his assertion about the, you know, all of that would require, you know, time to review and, you know, assess not like just right then and there.
[01:16:54.980 --> 01:16:55.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yep.
[01:16:55.520 --> 01:17:08.420]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And all of the, like, there's certainly a lot of things that could be tested, but it's going to take a lot of time to do accurate tests and you have to do them like many, many times.
[01:17:08.540 --> 01:17:11.460]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I can't just do it once and be like, here's the answer.
[01:17:11.840 --> 01:17:16.200]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You know, I got to repeat it a lot of times and have consistent answers.
[01:17:16.520 --> 01:17:26.140]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And you basically answered that question in your affidavit as far as there's no evidence that that would cause the data to read that way.
[01:17:27.020 --> 01:17:27.140]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Right.
[01:17:27.340 --> 01:17:39.600]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And I also stated in the affidavit, I wasn't given anything, whether it was pictures or reports or notes or anything that said the phone was ever documented to be wet or dirty.
[01:17:40.060 --> 01:17:44.200]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Mr. Cecil testified that he didn't note that it was ever wet or dirty.
[01:17:44.920 --> 01:17:54.680]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But then they replied to my affidavit with like a picture of an iPhone with one drop of water on the screen as proof of water damage.
[01:17:55.880 --> 01:18:00.060]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So that's where we stand in terms of the water damage.
[01:18:00.540 --> 01:18:01.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: Frustrating.
[01:18:01.640 --> 01:18:07.780]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So I've gone back through my notes of Cecil's testimony when he was on Dirac.
[01:18:07.940 --> 01:18:18.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And what I noticed is he talked about the Knowledge C because the Knowledge C wasn't something that he learned about until 2019.
[01:18:18.760 --> 01:18:21.540]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Before that, the science behind it wasn't fully known.
[01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:27.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So when he did his first analysis, he had not taken that into account.
[01:18:27.320 --> 01:18:33.360]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And that's why he then did, I guess, the gray key extraction and the further analysis.
[01:18:34.040 --> 01:18:39.200]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so he moved in from that to talking about his timeline.
[01:18:39.740 --> 01:18:44.960]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And in his timeline, he notes, okay, the last recorded movement of the phone was 239.
[01:18:45.400 --> 01:18:52.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And then he has at 10 32 36, it's the last recorded data from the iPhone.
[01:18:52.740 --> 01:18:58.480]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And he says he had thought before that the battery was depleted, but now he knows that that's incorrect.
[01:18:59.820 --> 01:19:01.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Isn't isn't that the headphone entry?
[01:19:02.280 --> 01:19:02.280]  Yeah.
[01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:02.720]  Yeah.
[01:19:03.700 --> 01:19:05.880]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So he has it at the end.
[01:19:06.280 --> 01:19:07.240]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:19:07.720 --> 01:19:14.360]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So he knows there and he even acknowledged that that was one of the changes he had to make to his previous report that there was activity on the phone.
[01:19:14.820 --> 01:19:16.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So he knew that there was activity.
[01:19:17.480 --> 01:19:20.040]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: He just apparently didn't bother to find out what it was.
[01:19:20.760 --> 01:19:24.620]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Or he found out what it was and played dumb.
[01:19:24.920 --> 01:19:25.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Didn't like it.
[01:19:25.780 --> 01:19:25.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Right.
[01:19:26.200 --> 01:19:30.300]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So here's the thing with the knowledge C, it's old like me.
[01:19:30.760 --> 01:19:37.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And so if you weren't old like me, you might not know that that's an important database to check in an old phone.
[01:19:38.280 --> 01:19:40.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I don't know how long he's been doing it or whatever.
[01:19:41.540 --> 01:19:46.420]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But I mean, and that was certainly the challenge with this case is getting it like 78, seven years later.
[01:19:46.580 --> 01:19:50.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Can I, will my tools still extract this data appropriately?
[01:19:50.540 --> 01:19:53.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Or am I going to have to go back to an old version of this?
[01:19:53.540 --> 01:19:55.440]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Or how much is it going to be manually?
[01:19:55.640 --> 01:19:59.700]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But I know knowledge C was like the treasure trove.
[01:19:59.800 --> 01:20:00.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's what you wanted.
[01:20:00.880 --> 01:20:02.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That had all the great stuff in it.
[01:20:02.560 --> 01:20:08.400]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So you definitely have to look at that if you're doing an iPhone, an iPhone six, super important to look at it.
[01:20:09.120 --> 01:20:09.640]  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[01:20:11.020 --> 01:20:11.540]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Wild.
[01:20:12.780 --> 01:20:15.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah, it's, it's, that's one way to put it.
[01:20:15.640 --> 01:20:26.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: So I, is terms of, so I want to, I want to talk a little bit about the flood of messages that come in at 433 AM.
[01:20:26.480 --> 01:20:31.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: Were you ever able to kind of figure out how that happened?
[01:20:31.460 --> 01:20:41.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: Because I just could never get over the fact that AT&T was theoretically when you, when you get that, you hit them up and you're like, look, we need you to ping them.
[01:20:41.300 --> 01:20:45.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: They do it every 15 minutes and they continue to do it.
[01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:53.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: And, and can you explain kind of like what the historical, cause they'll, they'll put in historically the last time they pinged.
[01:20:53.460 --> 01:21:01.480]  [BOB MOTTA]: And does that override, can you explain that whole thing to us in terms of pinging and that data and how they record it with those pings?
[01:21:02.080 --> 01:21:09.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So with the AT&T logs, they had all of those pings logged, like so many of them.
[01:21:09.280 --> 01:21:14.780]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And, and I think I recall, you know, it was probably about every 15 minutes that they just kept pinging.
[01:21:15.060 --> 01:21:22.820]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I did see receipt on the phone of like when, um, the sheriff was trying to call or text.
[01:21:23.240 --> 01:21:26.840]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I saw those messages come in.
[01:21:27.280 --> 01:21:33.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Um, but yeah, the, the pings go out from the tower to the cell phone because they're trying to find it.
[01:21:34.020 --> 01:21:37.960]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And it also works with the cell phone going out, trying to hit the tower.
[01:21:38.100 --> 01:21:39.280]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It's always searching for the signal.
[01:21:39.420 --> 01:21:48.320]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So that's, those two things would have been happening simultaneously when a phone was on in the middle of the night, once they started the pinging.
[01:21:48.500 --> 01:21:52.160]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: The tower's trying to ping the cell phone, the cell phone's on, it's always searching for a signal.
[01:21:52.340 --> 01:21:53.340]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's how cell phones work.
[01:21:54.140 --> 01:21:59.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So let me ask you, I guess, as a matter of circumstantial inference, uh, AT&T is the one that's doing these pings.
[01:22:01.040 --> 01:22:05.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If the problem with the connectivity was tower-based, would AT&T know that?
[01:22:05.720 --> 01:22:15.920]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Would they be able to tell like, hey, we can't send out, send out a ping for whatever reason, the tower, the tower is overloaded too much, like too much traffic, it's out of, whatever, whatever the reasons might be why a tower would go down.
[01:22:16.400 --> 01:22:19.680]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Wouldn't AT&T know that when they're trying to, trying to ping the phone?
[01:22:20.240 --> 01:22:25.620]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I would think AT&T would know that their equipment is down so they can send people out to repair it.
[01:22:27.300 --> 01:22:34.720]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And, and with the, with the, and I think this kind of goes without saying, but I'm just going to ask it to make it clear for everyone and me as well.
[01:22:34.860 --> 01:22:42.000]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: With the, with the out at 10, whatever PM, I'll need Andrea's notes there for the... 10 32 16.
[01:22:42.480 --> 01:22:43.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: There you go.
[01:22:43.020 --> 01:22:45.100]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Removing the cord, right?
[01:22:45.320 --> 01:22:46.860]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Or the cable, whatever it is.
[01:22:47.280 --> 01:22:50.780]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: That proves for certain the phone was actually on.
[01:22:50.940 --> 01:22:55.780]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: If the phone was powered off and non-functional, it would not be logging that.
[01:22:55.860 --> 01:22:56.440]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Is that correct?
[01:22:57.180 --> 01:22:57.580]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Correct.
[01:22:57.740 --> 01:22:59.920]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Phones do not log things when they're not on.
[01:23:02.840 --> 01:23:18.640]  [BOB MOTTA]: And as far as now as an expert, and this is your field, I am sure that that entire last interaction that you had in that trial probably drove you nuts.
[01:23:19.120 --> 01:23:22.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: How much research did you do after the fact?
[01:23:22.020 --> 01:23:29.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: And have you seen anything that supports the proposition of what Cecil testified to at trial subsequent?
[01:23:31.420 --> 01:23:46.020]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So before I did my affidavit, I did continued research to make sure that I was still correct, that there is still no evidence that indicates water damage to an aux input port will result in it logging.
[01:23:46.280 --> 01:23:50.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I did my due diligence there before I restated it in that affidavit.
[01:23:50.900 --> 01:23:51.760]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Mm-hmm.
[01:23:52.460 --> 01:24:05.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: And if it's dirt, I mean, have you ever run across a situation where dirt somehow worked its way out of a completely stationary phone that theoretically is under somebody's body and under a shoe?
[01:24:06.460 --> 01:24:11.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: Is there a way that dirt moves that I don't know about?
[01:24:12.200 --> 01:24:13.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: I'm no geologist.
[01:24:13.560 --> 01:24:13.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't know.
[01:24:14.020 --> 01:24:15.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: Maybe dirt does move.
[01:24:15.240 --> 01:24:16.080]  [BOB MOTTA]: Does dirt move?
[01:24:16.860 --> 01:24:19.160]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I am not a dirt expert.
[01:24:22.500 --> 01:24:23.480]  [BOB MOTTA]: Me either.
[01:24:24.480 --> 01:24:27.820]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But again, that would not be logging.
[01:24:28.080 --> 01:24:37.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Even if dirt got in there, it would not create an input or output from in the raw data.
[01:24:38.480 --> 01:24:47.040]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I haven't found any evidence of dirt and water being causing a log to be generated of that related to that specifically.
[01:24:47.420 --> 01:24:49.880]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I do have to kind of get going soon.
[01:24:50.240 --> 01:24:50.460]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Okay.
[01:24:50.620 --> 01:24:51.560]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: You've been amazing.
[01:24:52.080 --> 01:24:53.620]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So in the next five minutes, maybe.
[01:24:54.820 --> 01:24:58.700]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I got one more thing I'm dying to follow up on.
[01:25:00.420 --> 01:25:03.260]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And this is what came up on cross-examination.
[01:25:03.640 --> 01:25:09.020]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You were asked about a video that was found on Libby's phone.
[01:25:09.340 --> 01:25:13.260]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And there was GPS data that was associated with that video.
[01:25:13.880 --> 01:25:21.460]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You were asked specifically about whether there was any evidence of manipulation of the timestamp or the GPS on that video.
[01:25:21.740 --> 01:25:23.640]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And your testimony was no.
[01:25:23.720 --> 01:25:25.260]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: There was no evidence of any of that.
[01:25:25.560 --> 01:25:30.340]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I would like to find out more from you what you did with respect to this video.
[01:25:30.440 --> 01:25:31.700]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Did you watch the video?
[01:25:32.140 --> 01:25:33.760]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: What did you look at with the video?
[01:25:33.940 --> 01:25:36.640]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: What do you remember learning with respect to the video?
[01:25:36.720 --> 01:25:41.660]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If you have any recollection of that that you can share with us, I would love to know.
[01:25:42.540 --> 01:25:48.080]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I did very minimal interaction with the video.
[01:25:48.220 --> 01:25:52.020]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I basically just verified like, you know, is this a reasonable date and time?
[01:25:54.180 --> 01:26:01.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Does the picture in the video appear to be somewhere close to the recorded GPS coordinates?
[01:26:02.640 --> 01:26:04.520]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And that was... and I watched it.
[01:26:04.580 --> 01:26:05.560]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And that was pretty much it.
[01:26:06.880 --> 01:26:09.940]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Can you describe what you remember watching?
[01:26:10.740 --> 01:26:17.380]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I think it was the... it was just kind of like, mainly the... the walking, the railroad tiles.
[01:26:19.460 --> 01:26:23.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: There was the guy at the end mumbling something.
[01:26:24.620 --> 01:26:27.260]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Were you able to hear anything clearly that you recall?
[01:26:30.100 --> 01:26:31.460]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I wrote it down.
[01:26:31.720 --> 01:26:32.780]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Let me look.
[01:26:36.290 --> 01:26:41.850]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And... and while you're looking, do you recall, were you able to see a man clearly on the video?
[01:26:41.850 --> 01:26:42.430]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I
[01:26:45.520 --> 01:26:54.660]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: would say I could tell like there was a person, kind of in darker colors.
[01:26:55.180 --> 01:26:59.980]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And I turned that volume up as loud as I could and slowed it down.
[01:27:00.040 --> 01:27:02.740]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And all I could ever hear out of that was, hey, guys.
[01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:04.120]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Okay.
[01:27:05.540 --> 01:27:06.500]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: That's all I ever heard.
[01:27:08.160 --> 01:27:11.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Okay, Allie, do you have any... do you have any...
[01:27:12.000 --> 01:27:17.400]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I'm going to... well, first I'll ask the battery questions that everybody wants to hear.
[01:27:17.900 --> 01:27:23.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So there is some sort of battery log in the database or something, right?
[01:27:23.600 --> 01:27:23.800]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yep.
[01:27:24.120 --> 01:27:30.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So if the battery was getting low right before this happened, that's something that would be documented?
[01:27:31.640 --> 01:27:32.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yes.
[01:27:32.540 --> 01:27:33.240]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And it was.
[01:27:34.180 --> 01:27:37.980]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It has all the different percentages going down.
[01:27:38.120 --> 01:27:40.680]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It has earlier in the day when it went into low power mode.
[01:27:42.240 --> 01:27:47.140]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So is there any evidence that it powered... that the battery life got so low that it shut off?
[01:27:48.900 --> 01:27:54.000]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Well, if it would have shut off, that would have been in that power log that got overwritten.
[01:27:54.420 --> 01:27:56.100]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Well, you'd see the battery at one percent.
[01:27:58.180 --> 01:28:03.160]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: There's no necessarily pattern to when it's logging the percentages.
[01:28:03.440 --> 01:28:11.240]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So I have seen in other cases where one percent is logged and I've seen it in other cases where it's not, like this one.
[01:28:11.940 --> 01:28:12.620]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Okay.
[01:28:12.780 --> 01:28:18.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But again, if the battery died, it wouldn't turn back on at 1044 to log out?
[01:28:19.460 --> 01:28:25.340]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: No, a phone doesn't turn itself back on by itself.
[01:28:25.600 --> 01:28:31.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: An iPhone battery can never regenerate itself without being plugged into an electrical socket, correct?
[01:28:32.660 --> 01:28:38.980]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Power, a power source, electricity is required to charge a battery on a phone.
[01:28:39.560 --> 01:28:44.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Now we're going to go off on a limb because I know everybody wants us to.
[01:28:44.600 --> 01:28:52.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: If you do a search on Google for something such as, for example, how long to die in the cold?
[01:28:52.940 --> 01:29:05.520]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And then is it going to somehow later in the, I think the Knowledge C base, does anybody know which, was it Knowledge C?
[01:29:05.620 --> 01:29:06.640]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yes, it was Knowledge C.
[01:29:07.620 --> 01:29:16.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Change that time later and you actually did it at 6 a.m., but it's showing you did it at 2 a.m.
[01:29:16.320 --> 01:29:18.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Is there any reason why that would ever happen?
[01:29:19.360 --> 01:29:20.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I don't even know what you're saying.
[01:29:22.740 --> 01:29:25.920]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I mean, it doesn't make stuff up when it logs.
[01:29:26.320 --> 01:29:32.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: It's just like, because it's got to log this stuff accurately so it could keep track of what's happening on your phone.
[01:29:33.160 --> 01:29:37.340]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And if it was all crazy and just made up and nonsense, then your phone wouldn't work.
[01:29:37.480 --> 01:29:52.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: All right, so here's an explanation that has been proffered is that let's say I open at 2 a.m., I'm doing a search in a Google window on my phone and I'm looking for whatever, you know, like who's house long to die in the cold?
[01:29:52.320 --> 01:29:53.740]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: No, who's safe, right?
[01:29:54.380 --> 01:29:56.840]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And then at 6 p.m.
[01:29:57.140 --> 01:30:04.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: or 6 a.m., I go back into that same window that I started at 2 a.m.
[01:30:04.040 --> 01:30:07.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: and now I type in house long to die in the cold.
[01:30:08.340 --> 01:30:14.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Would the Knowledge C database update my 6 a.m.
[01:30:14.200 --> 01:30:19.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: search to backdate to the date, the search that that window was open?
[01:30:19.940 --> 01:30:23.440]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Well, the Knowledge C doesn't log your browsing history.
[01:30:25.280 --> 01:30:26.800]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh, so maybe it wasn't Knowledge C?
[01:30:26.820 --> 01:30:27.960]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Oh, it was the BrowserState.
[01:30:28.040 --> 01:30:29.580]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It was the BrowserState.db.
[01:30:33.060 --> 01:30:34.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Sorry, that was my bad.
[01:30:34.680 --> 01:30:40.620]  [BOB MOTTA]: What the ladies have done here, they've slipped you very stealthily into the Karen Reid case.
[01:30:40.620 --> 01:30:52.240]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So the explanation that was given was that a different search was run at 2.37 a.m.
[01:30:52.460 --> 01:30:59.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: The same tab was then used at 6.30 the next morning to search house long to die in cold.
[01:30:59.640 --> 01:31:08.580]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And because of that, it showed up in the BrowserState.db as house long to die in cold at 2.27 because that's the time the tab was open.
[01:31:08.580 --> 01:31:10.340]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Does that sound reasonable to you?
[01:31:12.160 --> 01:31:12.960]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I don't know.
[01:31:13.240 --> 01:31:14.220]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I can't comment on it.
[01:31:14.640 --> 01:31:15.280]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Totally fair.
[01:31:16.180 --> 01:31:18.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't think anybody knows the answer.
[01:31:18.700 --> 01:31:19.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I tried, guys.
[01:31:19.720 --> 01:31:20.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I tried.
[01:31:20.540 --> 01:31:23.400]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So can I ask one more question about the video?
[01:31:23.540 --> 01:31:24.600]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: One more about the video.
[01:31:25.680 --> 01:31:37.380]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Testimony at the trial from the state was that the GPS location changed over the course of the video, that it started off at some distance, like near the Canton school.
[01:31:38.260 --> 01:31:48.240]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And then as the video progressed, the location kind of tightened in and became more precise and was closer to the Monon High Bridge where it was actually taken.
[01:31:48.480 --> 01:31:52.020]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Does that comport with what you remember of the GPS data?
[01:31:53.620 --> 01:31:57.820]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yes, I didn't have any disagreement with it being wider and then getting more accurate.
[01:31:58.600 --> 01:31:58.720]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Okay.
[01:31:58.720 --> 01:32:00.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right, Allie, look at your phone.
[01:32:01.720 --> 01:32:04.620]  [BOB MOTTA]: So this is my final question.
[01:32:05.300 --> 01:32:07.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: And a lot of people want to know the answer to this.
[01:32:07.460 --> 01:32:11.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: Why was the battery at 4% for so long?
[01:32:13.580 --> 01:32:27.920]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: I don't know why, but I can say from my own experience of using an iPhone, it can be just sitting there at a very low percentage for over a day if you're not doing anything on it.
[01:32:28.020 --> 01:32:32.220]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: If it's just sitting there, it can sit there and last for a long time.
[01:32:34.720 --> 01:32:40.860]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And again, that current power log could have told us a whole lot of information, but that's all gone.
[01:32:41.300 --> 01:32:43.260]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So many answers we could have gotten out of that.
[01:32:43.740 --> 01:32:44.340]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So many.
[01:32:45.880 --> 01:32:46.840]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah, yeah.
[01:32:47.560 --> 01:32:48.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: All right, Allie.
[01:32:49.020 --> 01:32:58.500]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Okay, yeah, so I'm not sure, like I might be missing some abbreviation here, but do things...
[01:32:58.500 --> 01:33:00.580]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh, okay.
[01:33:01.000 --> 01:33:11.720]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So things logging while a phone is off, if that Apple ID is synced to like an iPad that is receiving those notifications.
[01:33:16.160 --> 01:33:18.280]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: So you can have this syncing.
[01:33:18.700 --> 01:33:20.900]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: We can sync between all of our devices.
[01:33:21.380 --> 01:33:24.540]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: The Apple Cloud is the middleman, if you will.
[01:33:26.660 --> 01:33:31.320]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: But if a phone is off, it's not going to log what it's doing and send it to the cloud.
[01:33:32.520 --> 01:33:32.960]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Right.
[01:33:33.100 --> 01:33:36.720]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And it wouldn't upload from the cloud either, I wouldn't think, if there's like some updating.
[01:33:37.540 --> 01:33:39.280]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah, if it's off, it can't do anything.
[01:33:39.520 --> 01:33:39.580]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Yeah.
[01:33:39.900 --> 01:33:42.100]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Phone is off, it's off, nothing is happening.
[01:33:42.460 --> 01:33:53.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But the phone, like the extraction report's not going to log a received message because it went to a different device, because you're looking at an extraction report for the phone.
[01:33:53.980 --> 01:33:54.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Is that accurate?
[01:33:55.580 --> 01:33:56.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Right.
[01:33:56.160 --> 01:34:02.280]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: And if it was synced up later, you can tell what messages are coming across from a sync versus being received.
[01:34:02.860 --> 01:34:03.140]  [STACEY ELDRITCH]: Okay.
[01:34:03.600 --> 01:34:03.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: Okay.
[01:34:04.820 --> 01:34:05.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[01:34:05.640 --> 01:34:07.600]  [BOB MOTTA]: Well, this has been awesome.
[01:34:08.160 --> 01:34:17.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: We are so, so appreciative of you taking your time to hang with us and get grilled for an hour and a half.
[01:34:17.520 --> 01:34:19.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: So we're very, very appreciative.
[01:34:20.380 --> 01:34:22.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: Is this how long I testified for, I think?
[01:34:25.120 --> 01:34:27.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: And theoretically, you were supposed to get paid for that.
[01:34:27.580 --> 01:34:28.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: Here, you did it for free.
[01:34:28.880 --> 01:34:31.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: So we're super appreciative of that.
[01:34:31.880 --> 01:34:33.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: You always have a place here.
[01:34:33.360 --> 01:34:36.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: Anytime you want to come back, if there's a retrial, I'm going to hunch you down.
[01:34:37.060 --> 01:34:38.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: I'm going to drag you back here.
[01:34:39.420 --> 01:34:41.040]  [BOB MOTTA]: So maybe we're having a very...
[01:34:41.040 --> 01:34:41.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Well, you can't tell if he testifies because...
[01:34:41.760 --> 01:34:42.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah, maybe.
[01:34:42.400 --> 01:34:44.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: Well, that's what I'm saying, after the testimony.
[01:34:45.440 --> 01:34:48.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: And we theoretically, and hopefully, are having a much different conversation.
[01:34:49.980 --> 01:34:51.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: So thank you so much, Stacey.
[01:34:51.740 --> 01:34:53.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: I really, really appreciate it.
[01:34:53.180 --> 01:34:53.800]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yep.
[01:34:54.120 --> 01:34:54.860]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you.
[01:34:54.940 --> 01:34:55.480]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Bye.
[01:34:55.900 --> 01:34:56.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[01:34:56.600 --> 01:34:57.540]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: All right.
[01:34:57.680 --> 01:34:57.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Wow.
[01:34:58.220 --> 01:35:11.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So what's most interesting, because she did say it without saying it, is that the phone, the data would indicate water damage, if it existed.
[01:35:12.060 --> 01:35:17.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And there is no notification of water damage on the extraction report.
[01:35:17.780 --> 01:35:19.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And she didn't know.
[01:35:19.720 --> 01:35:26.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Sounds like it's possibly ineffectiveness for not giving your expert enough information.
[01:35:27.780 --> 01:35:33.120]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I mean, maybe it's an argument that could be made, but it's most assuredly a post-conviction petition issue.
[01:35:33.620 --> 01:35:34.120]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Sure.
[01:35:34.300 --> 01:35:36.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: New evidence or something.
[01:35:37.520 --> 01:35:38.040]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah.
[01:35:38.220 --> 01:35:48.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We couldn't have known at the time, because this was sprung upon the defense at trial, that they're going to claim that water damage caused this data to be logged.
[01:35:48.420 --> 01:35:49.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Right.
[01:35:49.240 --> 01:35:50.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They couldn't anticipate that.
[01:35:50.720 --> 01:36:01.460]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So you can't now go back and you're not going to have the time to go back and re-research the extraction and all of that, and the documentation of the phone.
[01:36:02.480 --> 01:36:04.060]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's going to be newly discovered.
[01:36:04.780 --> 01:36:04.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:36:05.080 --> 01:36:20.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: And because strategically, as defense attorneys, when we are gathering the information from the information turned over by the state, we are never giving them a heads up that this is what our expert had figured out.
[01:36:21.560 --> 01:36:23.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: I wasn't analyzing that data myself.
[01:36:24.160 --> 01:36:38.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: Well, if they had given them enough money for her to actually write a report, the state would have been in the know and they would have known at that point, which theoretically would have allowed it to get fleshed out in a much more meaningful way at trial,
[01:36:39.640 --> 01:36:45.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: especially from Stacey's perspective, because she would have been able to dig in and refute it.
[01:36:45.680 --> 01:36:47.640]  [BOB MOTTA]: Or one way or another.
[01:36:47.820 --> 01:36:51.040]  [BOB MOTTA]: So yeah, I think ultimately how that thing's going to shake out.
[01:36:51.140 --> 01:36:51.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:36:51.820 --> 01:36:54.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: It didn't sound like she did much with the video.
[01:36:54.280 --> 01:36:55.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: I know we all kind of...
[01:36:56.000 --> 01:37:01.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: I knew somebody was going to bring up the video, but I didn't get the sense that she had really dug into the video.
[01:37:02.160 --> 01:37:05.960]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Okay, Bob, I just got to ask, because I'm going to put it out there.
[01:37:06.400 --> 01:37:20.820]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: What she described to me sounds like what was shown to us in court, what I remember in court as being the video that was stabilized, but didn't have the audio enhancement where you could actually see stuff.
[01:37:20.900 --> 01:37:24.920]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It wasn't like, so, you know, jerky around, but you still, you couldn't hear anything.
[01:37:25.100 --> 01:37:32.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: I know it was like, cause like I was texting you the night that the video dropped and I'm like, this does not seem like the OG video.
[01:37:32.740 --> 01:37:41.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it wasn't just you and I, everybody in that courtroom, with the exception of the murder sheets, like said that they didn't see.
[01:37:41.000 --> 01:37:47.580]  [BOB MOTTA]: I initially, when you're first seeing Abby, I did not see anybody behind her.
[01:37:47.840 --> 01:37:56.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: Now, seconds later, when you see the dude, you obviously see the dude, but I'm talking about initially, it just seemed like he appeared out of nowhere to me.
[01:37:56.700 --> 01:37:57.140]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Exactly.
[01:37:58.680 --> 01:38:05.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And it's so notable because none of us saw him and we were looking intently for him.
[01:38:05.580 --> 01:38:07.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You know, it's not like we would just miss him.
[01:38:07.360 --> 01:38:09.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We know that's the point of this video.
[01:38:10.060 --> 01:38:13.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We're waiting to see, what do you get to see about Bridge Guy?
[01:38:13.220 --> 01:38:17.680]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Cause all we've seen is just this screenshot that they got in and distributed.
[01:38:17.940 --> 01:38:20.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So we're all waiting to see, what do you see Bridge Guy do?
[01:38:20.600 --> 01:38:21.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Is he close?
[01:38:21.240 --> 01:38:21.880]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Is he far?
[01:38:22.840 --> 01:38:30.780]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You know, we're looking intently for Bridge Guy and we can't see him on what was told to us is the raw video.
[01:38:31.320 --> 01:38:31.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:38:31.460 --> 01:38:38.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: And for the record, Lauren from Hidden True Crime, who is very much a Richard Allen is the right guy.
[01:38:38.380 --> 01:38:39.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: He's guilty.
[01:38:39.380 --> 01:38:41.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: Said the exact same thing that we did.
[01:38:42.180 --> 01:38:44.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: She ran to her car during the break.
[01:38:45.040 --> 01:38:47.840]  [BOB MOTTA]: She said, I didn't see, I didn't see the guy.
[01:38:48.060 --> 01:38:57.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: You know, it's like the reality is we're all sitting there watching this video that we've been anticipating watching for years, depending on how long you've been like digging into this case.
[01:38:57.980 --> 01:39:00.480]  [BOB MOTTA]: And you're trying to like soak it all in.
[01:39:00.580 --> 01:39:04.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: And you and I are whatever, 35, 40 feet away.
[01:39:04.740 --> 01:39:08.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: You're trying to really just see everything that you can see.
[01:39:08.440 --> 01:39:12.080]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it's like, I saw what I saw or didn't, you know what I mean?
[01:39:12.380 --> 01:39:23.680]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But so then when they came back after they stabilized the video or, you know, what they told us was stabilizing the video, it completely changed the orientation of, of much of it.
[01:39:23.680 --> 01:39:26.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Because when we watched it, the phone is, is basically moving like this.
[01:39:26.980 --> 01:39:28.860]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And that's why it's so hard to see anything.
[01:39:29.180 --> 01:39:33.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So then when it's quote unquote stabilized, it's much stiller, it's much smoother.
[01:39:33.540 --> 01:39:43.300]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And you get that long shot of Abby with the man behind her that you can see for like just about a second on, on the full video.
[01:39:43.360 --> 01:39:51.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so that's what if Stacey saw a man, you know, she was able to see the man in the dark clothing.
[01:39:51.300 --> 01:39:54.080]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It sounds to me like that's what she's describing.
[01:39:54.300 --> 01:39:59.540]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: She's describing that video that we saw after they told us it had been stabilized.
[01:40:00.200 --> 01:40:03.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But she couldn't hear anything besides, Hey guys.
[01:40:03.680 --> 01:40:11.080]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And everybody has now heard, you know, watched for themselves as many times as they want the, the video that the defense has, has released.
[01:40:11.540 --> 01:40:13.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: That is the original extraction.
[01:40:13.640 --> 01:40:15.760]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And you can hear a lot more than that.
[01:40:16.080 --> 01:40:30.660]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So I just have so many gazillion questions about what was presented in court and what we were told that it was because it just really does not seem to be, to be adding up.
[01:40:30.760 --> 01:40:40.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And that's why it's so important that we get access to those exhibits that are public record and we should be able to all see for ourselves.
[01:40:40.840 --> 01:40:41.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: A hundred percent.
[01:40:41.700 --> 01:40:51.760]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it's, it's that thing where, because there were three versions, we had, we had the stabilized, we had the OG, we had the stabilized and then what they referred to as the enhanced.
[01:40:52.440 --> 01:40:55.880]  [BOB MOTTA]: And the enhanced like blew my mind.
[01:40:55.940 --> 01:41:01.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: I remember walking out of the courtroom and asking you, I'm like, like, like, what did we just see?
[01:41:01.600 --> 01:41:02.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like, how did that look?
[01:41:02.600 --> 01:41:04.040]  [BOB MOTTA]: It was completely different.
[01:41:04.140 --> 01:41:20.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like to me, the whole thing looked like, like I was thinking like, did they access somehow access the front and back camera so that it was never looking crazy at all in terms of being completely stabilized and in terms of it almost seeming upright the entire time.
[01:41:20.300 --> 01:41:31.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: I thought that there was like a more of being able to see Abby running towards Libby when she gets to the end of the bridge that I thought that I saw in either of the first two versions.
[01:41:31.640 --> 01:41:37.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: But then again, you know, it's like we saw these videos a total of six times.
[01:41:38.240 --> 01:41:39.600]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, you know what I mean?
[01:41:39.660 --> 01:41:42.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: It's like we saw them once during the trial piece.
[01:41:42.340 --> 01:41:49.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: And then we saw maybe, maybe twice on the stabilized, but, and then we saw one more time during closing.
[01:41:49.700 --> 01:41:58.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I think we only saw the enhanced during closing, but I couldn't tell what was what at any point, what video, which goes exactly to your point.
[01:41:58.340 --> 01:42:04.640]  [BOB MOTTA]: The, the, the entire purpose of having transparency in the courts is so this doesn't happen.
[01:42:05.040 --> 01:42:05.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yep.
[01:42:05.680 --> 01:42:06.640]  [BOB MOTTA]: Million percent.
[01:42:07.080 --> 01:42:08.580]  [BOB MOTTA]: We're not supposed to be the record.
[01:42:11.800 --> 01:42:25.620]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I'm just going to circle back because I don't care if you don't know that they're going to claim water damage could create the out, you know, but they said they took the kids through water.
[01:42:25.820 --> 01:42:35.820]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So I would still have told my expert, look for water damage, you know, like just because they traversed through.
[01:42:36.080 --> 01:42:36.360]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's a good point.
[01:42:36.800 --> 01:42:36.940]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah.
[01:42:37.060 --> 01:42:39.900]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You know, the theory is that they were taken across the water.
[01:42:40.100 --> 01:42:42.200]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Can that be substantiated by anything?
[01:42:42.400 --> 01:42:43.440]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: That is a good point.
[01:42:45.040 --> 01:42:49.820]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So, like she said, I mean, they had, they had to prioritize the things.
[01:42:49.820 --> 01:43:01.880]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And once you get a physical use of the phone, once you establish the phone is on because it's logging out, it's was, you know, something was inputted and taken out of it.
[01:43:02.260 --> 01:43:07.340]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: You know, I guess maybe you're not so worried about that other stuff, but I don't know.
[01:43:08.340 --> 01:43:16.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: So ask, how does a phone log sending a video with a message three minutes before before the creation time of the video?
[01:43:16.720 --> 01:43:17.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:43:17.540 --> 01:43:18.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: What magic is this?
[01:43:19.140 --> 01:43:19.780]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't know.
[01:43:19.960 --> 01:43:21.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: It sounds like some real tech wizard.
[01:43:21.980 --> 01:43:26.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I would say that the phone log data is the right time, not whatever.
[01:43:27.960 --> 01:43:29.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: The creation time.
[01:43:29.520 --> 01:43:29.840]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Right.
[01:43:30.220 --> 01:43:37.500]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: What did what where did we get the creation time on the video that they didn't have access to because it was gone?
[01:43:38.260 --> 01:43:39.460]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: That's seven hours.
[01:43:39.740 --> 01:43:41.700]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I mean, is that what are they?
[01:43:43.480 --> 01:43:47.840]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I think you guys all know something I don't like, where are they getting the creation time of the video?
[01:43:48.440 --> 01:43:49.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah, I don't know.
[01:43:51.600 --> 01:44:03.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Maybe the phone, maybe the phone data logs sending a video three minutes before it logs creating the video, which would suggest two different videos.
[01:44:04.940 --> 01:44:08.440]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah, all I know is that Michael Osbrook is a lot smarter than me.
[01:44:08.580 --> 01:44:12.860]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So if he's got a question, I doubt I can answer.
[01:44:14.900 --> 01:44:26.320]  [BOB MOTTA]: Osbrook is, he is, he has been digging pretty deep into, you know, this case recently in terms of, you know, because Osbrook, let's not, let's not mince words.
[01:44:26.420 --> 01:44:30.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, he is certainly the one who prepared the motion to correct errors.
[01:44:31.100 --> 01:44:37.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, I mean, that tells you just how deeply he's been digging into the case that that was all him who wrote that.
[01:44:37.580 --> 01:44:48.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, you know, Michael, Michael happens to think that Rick Allen is factually innocent and he's acting accordingly in terms of trying to do the amount of digging that he's digging.
[01:44:49.440 --> 01:44:59.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: So yeah, I mean, Andrea, like I would, it's taking all of my power not to start talking about Karen Reed and Brian Koberger.
[01:45:00.820 --> 01:45:02.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: What did you want to know?
[01:45:02.540 --> 01:45:11.440]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Has the new information about the Amazon search changed your opinion on just the strength of the state's case against Koberger?
[01:45:11.600 --> 01:45:21.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So I, obviously if they can prove that, I think that's going to be, that's going to be obviously extremely bad for, for Mr. Koberger.
[01:45:21.400 --> 01:45:26.300]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But I am very curious about, they're being very opaque about what exactly they have.
[01:45:26.400 --> 01:45:35.240]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And I don't know if you noticed the footnote in their, in their opposition where this is all relating to the defense's motion eliminating to exclude Amazon click data.
[01:45:35.460 --> 01:45:50.640]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so the state filed a response yesterday and included in that response is this kind of in, you know, indication which jumped out at me instantly because of the use of the passive voice.
[01:45:50.640 --> 01:45:59.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They said they had narrowed their search to the time when it was known that Brian Koberger had purchased a K-bar knife.
[01:46:00.420 --> 01:46:02.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so that immediately, you know, gets my attention.
[01:46:02.580 --> 01:46:08.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Anytime the police use the passive voice, it's like, well, who, who and how, you know, it didn't just sort of like happen.
[01:46:09.080 --> 01:46:11.460]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It didn't just materialize like there was a process here.
[01:46:11.540 --> 01:46:13.080]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Why are you being opaque about this?
[01:46:13.440 --> 01:46:25.200]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And if you look at the footnote three there, it's very clear that they don't have information that directly ties Brian Koberger to what they are saying is this purchase of the K-bar.
[01:46:25.580 --> 01:46:29.860]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It seems it did not come from his computer or from any of his devices.
[01:46:30.040 --> 01:46:34.000]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It seems it doesn't come from an account that can be traced directly to him.
[01:46:34.380 --> 01:46:50.400]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so what they're doing is they're trying to circumstantially tie it to him through like transaction records, some other type of information that they're going to try to do to show that this Amazon user was Brian Koberger.
[01:46:50.820 --> 01:46:55.580]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So it's a circumstantial allegation that they're making.
[01:46:55.840 --> 01:46:58.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If they can back it up and have a good connection, great.
[01:46:58.900 --> 01:47:01.900]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But if they don't, then it's just going to be more white car.
[01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:07.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We saw white cars on video and we decided they were all the same car so that we could pin it on Brian Koberger.
[01:47:08.460 --> 01:47:10.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But was it a family computer?
[01:47:10.920 --> 01:47:11.860]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They don't say.
[01:47:13.540 --> 01:47:13.960]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They don't know.
[01:47:14.360 --> 01:47:37.140]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They have this oblique reference to they have a witness who knows, but we don't know if that means... are you saying somebody has personal knowledge that he that he bought a knife or are you just saying they're going to be like Amazon custodial people who will testify to their parts of this transaction that you're tying together?
[01:47:37.620 --> 01:47:44.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Are you going to say like Payne is going to get up on the stand and explain he knows this because of these investigative steps that he did?
[01:47:45.140 --> 01:47:47.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They're being very oblique about it.
[01:47:47.700 --> 01:47:51.580]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So we don't know how strong it is or how weak it is at this point.
[01:47:51.840 --> 01:47:53.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: That's kind of my read on it.
[01:47:53.720 --> 01:47:56.500]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If it pulls through, yeah, that's really bad.
[01:47:56.760 --> 01:48:10.900]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And he's going to have to have a really good explanation, probably one that he can back up with something besides his own testimony, which I think he'd be in a situation of really having to give at that point about why he doesn't have that knife anymore,
[01:48:11.000 --> 01:48:13.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: because they searched his house, they searched his apartment.
[01:48:13.920 --> 01:48:15.400]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They did not recover a K-bar.
[01:48:15.920 --> 01:48:17.500]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So what happened to it?
[01:48:17.840 --> 01:48:19.320]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You better be able to back that up.
[01:48:19.380 --> 01:48:21.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You better have like an eBay receipt.
[01:48:21.240 --> 01:48:22.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I sold it to somebody.
[01:48:22.220 --> 01:48:25.800]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You better have a witness who can come in and say, you know, it was a gift for me.
[01:48:25.880 --> 01:48:26.900]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: He gave it to me as a gift.
[01:48:27.000 --> 01:48:27.300]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Here it is.
[01:48:27.320 --> 01:48:28.080]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I still have it.
[01:48:28.260 --> 01:48:33.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You better have a good explanation if they can make that connection that it's his.
[01:48:33.780 --> 01:48:39.080]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But I'm not confident yet at this point from what they've told us that that's a foregone conclusion.
[01:48:39.420 --> 01:48:39.860]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah.
[01:48:39.960 --> 01:48:43.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, I have a sneaking suspicion that they have the transaction.
[01:48:43.660 --> 01:48:51.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: However, I mean, for us, for example, our 30-year-old, for whatever godforsaken reason, is still on our Amazon account.
[01:48:51.920 --> 01:48:54.840]  [BOB MOTTA]: They use their own card.
[01:48:55.140 --> 01:48:56.480]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: They're all through our account.
[01:48:56.880 --> 01:48:57.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:48:57.960 --> 01:48:59.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: So they pay for it.
[01:48:59.360 --> 01:49:01.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: But I forget.
[01:49:01.420 --> 01:49:05.040]  [BOB MOTTA]: And then I'll send something that I've ordered and it'll get delivered to our daughter.
[01:49:05.700 --> 01:49:09.080]  [BOB MOTTA]: So I mean, I see what you're saying.
[01:49:09.220 --> 01:49:14.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: I think that we're ultimately going to see that a transaction is made because I mean, they seem pretty definitive with that.
[01:49:14.580 --> 01:49:17.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: That March purchase date seems like so well.
[01:49:17.700 --> 01:49:19.280]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But it's still even that is range.
[01:49:19.440 --> 01:49:20.880]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's the 20th to the 30th.
[01:49:20.960 --> 01:49:25.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's not like a record that you would get from Amazon of this click in this purchase to this.
[01:49:25.820 --> 01:49:26.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's a range.
[01:49:27.240 --> 01:49:29.080]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Why is it even a range?
[01:49:29.340 --> 01:49:33.400]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's just... If they had transaction history, there'd be a date, babe.
[01:49:33.720 --> 01:49:33.880]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:49:33.980 --> 01:49:36.620]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: If they had transaction history, there'd be a date.
[01:49:36.940 --> 01:49:39.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, but all agreed.
[01:49:40.420 --> 01:49:47.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: However, first of all, I want to give a tip of the hat to Hippler for his goddamn order, putting an end to all of this.
[01:49:47.940 --> 01:49:47.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yes.
[01:49:47.960 --> 01:49:48.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: Letting us see more.
[01:49:49.100 --> 01:49:50.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you, Judge.
[01:49:50.360 --> 01:49:50.800]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you.
[01:49:51.000 --> 01:50:03.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: I wanted to get that and print it out on some kind of parchment and then frame it in my room so I could just look at it and read it all the time and enjoy it because it's not just this case.
[01:50:03.460 --> 01:50:13.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: It's every case of recent note that it's becoming not the exception, but the norm for them to see documents coming out.
[01:50:13.760 --> 01:50:15.560]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it's not the way it's supposed to be.
[01:50:16.040 --> 01:50:17.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, I get it.
[01:50:17.220 --> 01:50:19.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it's a whole different conversation that we could have.
[01:50:19.380 --> 01:50:21.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it would probably be a really fascinating conversation.
[01:50:21.580 --> 01:50:23.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: We do live in a much different world.
[01:50:23.560 --> 01:50:28.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, the way that we have access to information never existed at any point in our existence.
[01:50:28.580 --> 01:50:36.660]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it has changed the way that potential jurors can gain information about a case that they never had prior to.
[01:50:37.020 --> 01:50:37.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, I mean, I get it.
[01:50:38.080 --> 01:50:50.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: But the answer is not sealing everything that comes in, because that destroys our ability to be able to keep an eye out on what the hell are going on, the goings on in our courtrooms across this country, which we have to have.
[01:50:51.060 --> 01:50:52.100]  [BOB MOTTA]: We need that transparency.
[01:50:52.280 --> 01:50:56.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: We need to be able to hold the government accountable for what they're doing.
[01:50:56.660 --> 01:51:01.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: And there's no other way to do it that I can think of, other than complete transparency.
[01:51:01.520 --> 01:51:02.600]  [BOB MOTTA]: You know, so...
[01:51:02.600 --> 01:51:02.660]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Right.
[01:51:02.820 --> 01:51:07.660]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And let's look at it from the big picture as well.
[01:51:07.820 --> 01:51:10.140]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's in the interest of the victims.
[01:51:10.500 --> 01:51:21.220]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's in the interest of the families that there not be questions about whether this is a reliable process, whether this is something that's substantiated in fair.
[01:51:21.660 --> 01:51:27.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: The more open it is, the more we can have confidence that it's working the way that it's supposed to do.
[01:51:27.460 --> 01:51:30.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And everybody wants to have confidence in the court system.
[01:51:30.640 --> 01:51:32.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: That is such a hard sell.
[01:51:32.740 --> 01:51:39.640]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like, I've taken so much shit over Delphi saying those exact words no less than a million times, you know.
[01:51:39.680 --> 01:51:44.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it's just such a hard sell to those that just don't want to hear it.
[01:51:44.780 --> 01:51:45.480]  [BOB MOTTA]: You know what I mean?
[01:51:45.640 --> 01:51:46.460]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I know.
[01:51:46.600 --> 01:51:46.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I know.
[01:51:47.740 --> 01:51:50.380]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But there's always going to be people that want to...
[01:51:52.240 --> 01:51:57.080]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Pardon me if this is a little strong in my expression, but it's how I describe it on my channel.
[01:51:57.160 --> 01:52:00.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They want to wear the victims as a skin suit.
[01:52:00.820 --> 01:52:11.000]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They want to be able to use that emotional reaction that everybody feels so much empathy for victims of crimes.
[01:52:11.260 --> 01:52:22.380]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But to use that to manipulate what you should believe or what you should do or what's factual and what's not factual, that's not appropriate.
[01:52:22.760 --> 01:52:23.940]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: That's not scientific.
[01:52:24.180 --> 01:52:25.460]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: That's manipulation.
[01:52:25.940 --> 01:52:27.340]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It makes my skin crawl.
[01:52:27.840 --> 01:52:29.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: It makes my skin crawl.
[01:52:29.220 --> 01:52:30.800]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah, it really does.
[01:52:30.980 --> 01:52:39.000]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so there's such a fine distinction between what is in the victim's best interests and what is in the family's best interests.
[01:52:39.660 --> 01:52:44.800]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And unfortunately, sometimes what they subjectively think and want.
[01:52:45.340 --> 01:52:45.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yep.
[01:52:46.240 --> 01:52:52.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it's exactly what you're saying in terms of what they're doing with that.
[01:52:53.000 --> 01:52:55.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I mean, they've tried to silence me.
[01:52:56.060 --> 01:52:58.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: It was unbelievable.
[01:52:59.720 --> 01:53:01.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: Trying to shame the hell out of me.
[01:53:02.140 --> 01:53:14.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: Because when I was using the justice for Abby and Libby hashtag, specifically when we were trying to raise funds so that Richard Allen could have experts, which that was some new information we found out.
[01:53:14.880 --> 01:53:16.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: They were trying to raise funds.
[01:53:16.380 --> 01:53:17.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, well, I shared it.
[01:53:18.300 --> 01:53:19.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: We as the public.
[01:53:19.340 --> 01:53:20.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: Right, we as the general public.
[01:53:22.740 --> 01:53:24.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: So whatever, man.
[01:53:24.280 --> 01:53:25.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: So you're falling prey to them.
[01:53:26.300 --> 01:53:28.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: Don't let the terrorists win, babe.
[01:53:30.980 --> 01:53:37.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: But as far as that goes, it's so frustrating and it's exactly what they're doing.
[01:53:38.060 --> 01:53:47.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it's a shame because it's a real disservice to the people that matter the most in those situations, which are exactly the victim's families because they're being misled.
[01:53:48.860 --> 01:53:50.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: And so I don't know.
[01:53:50.140 --> 01:53:59.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I'm going to read on a very, not like a serious topic, but one that I want Andrea's most legal input on.
[01:53:59.560 --> 01:54:08.100]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: As far as the motion to allow a Bowdoin expert to say that they did not take the appropriate investigative steps.
[01:54:08.100 --> 01:54:15.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Are you in agreement that that is definitely something that should be admissible and allowed to testify about?
[01:54:15.040 --> 01:54:20.580]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah, Ellie, I saw that case that you found, the commissioner Commonwealth versus Dyer case.
[01:54:20.860 --> 01:54:24.820]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so, yeah, I read that over and shared that on mine as well.
[01:54:24.880 --> 01:54:26.900]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I think you kind of nailed it.
[01:54:26.960 --> 01:54:44.700]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It was a case where the defense was criticized for not offering an expert on police techniques and what is an adequate investigation and so forth when they wanted to be able to impeach the state on some aspects of their investigation.
[01:54:45.380 --> 01:54:55.500]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so, no, it doesn't directly hold that you have the right to do it, but it's certainly implicit in the ruling that if you didn't do it, it's your fault.
[01:54:56.640 --> 01:55:00.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And it lays out the standard on what they need to establish.
[01:55:01.180 --> 01:55:03.200]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So clearly they're allowed to do it.
[01:55:03.460 --> 01:55:15.600]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And I definitely had cases in other, like I was in some federal cases in other states that say the words directly outright, like the failure to interview a witness in a murder investigation.
[01:55:16.860 --> 01:55:22.360]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah, no, this is not something, this is not some new strategy.
[01:55:22.580 --> 01:55:31.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: This is not the first time that somebody has come in and tried to present a witness on police investigations and what's proper and what isn't.
[01:55:32.420 --> 01:55:43.440]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So, what I pointed out on my channel is that it's very possible that the reason why this hasn't made it up to an appeal before is because the courts allow it.
[01:55:43.700 --> 01:55:48.600]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If the defense has an expert and you go ahead and put them on, you get convicted anyway.
[01:55:48.760 --> 01:55:52.340]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's not an issue on appeal because you got what you wanted.
[01:55:52.800 --> 01:56:02.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So maybe, Judge, the issue is that nobody is thinking this isn't relevant or this doesn't constitute expertise, so they're not denying the motion.
[01:56:02.340 --> 01:56:04.440]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And that's why it doesn't make it up through the courts.
[01:56:05.640 --> 01:56:08.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah, I mean, that's exactly the answer.
[01:56:09.360 --> 01:56:14.920]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I think that case that you found, Ali, I mean, kudos to you for doing the work.
[01:56:15.020 --> 01:56:15.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: This is law.
[01:56:15.680 --> 01:56:17.740]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: This is what legal practice is.
[01:56:17.820 --> 01:56:19.540]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You go and you look for the law.
[01:56:19.640 --> 01:56:21.480]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's not something we think up in our heads.
[01:56:21.560 --> 01:56:26.900]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's not something we decide what it should be and then assert that it is because we think it should be that.
[01:56:27.120 --> 01:56:30.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's written down somewhere and you can find it.
[01:56:31.500 --> 01:56:37.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: And if it's not, your job becomes increasingly more difficult because you have to change the law.
[01:56:37.820 --> 01:56:41.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: That's the hardest thing to do in what we do for a living, which is to change the law.
[01:56:42.320 --> 01:56:55.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I did want to answer Crankin's question because she touched on it and maybe you asked this before it, but the Snapchat coordinates, she agreed because Andrea asked her that when it first starts, it starts out wide and then it narrows in.
[01:56:55.200 --> 01:57:01.800]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So there's no reason to think that it was because she sent it to somebody that was at the school.
[01:57:03.240 --> 01:57:05.460]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: She agreed with that, took no issue with that.
[01:57:06.020 --> 01:57:06.140]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:57:06.220 --> 01:57:17.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And the other thing that really had me going was their expert who's going to say that the shape of the taillight is consistent with the injuries.
[01:57:17.840 --> 01:57:26.360]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I thought that Alessi's argument was absolutely on all points, right, right, right, right.
[01:57:26.380 --> 01:57:28.700]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Firing on every cylinder, perfectly timed.
[01:57:28.940 --> 01:57:31.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: The sound just, you get that hum.
[01:57:31.340 --> 01:57:32.380]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It's a thing of beauty.
[01:57:33.580 --> 01:57:34.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah, it really is.
[01:57:35.220 --> 01:57:40.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I mean, he's relying on, not only is it in, that was my thing with it though.
[01:57:40.180 --> 01:57:43.720]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I was like, not only is it in his report, okay, you extract it from the report.
[01:57:44.000 --> 01:57:46.260]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: It's what his opinion is based on.
[01:57:46.780 --> 01:57:49.400]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Seemingly, I mean, why are you putting it in your report?
[01:57:49.760 --> 01:57:52.800]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And Brennan's like, well, there's a bunch of irrelevant stuff that's in there.
[01:57:53.200 --> 01:57:54.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So what do you mean?
[01:57:54.280 --> 01:58:04.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: You gave him a bunch of irrelevant stuff to ask about, which was coded in your question about, do you not want to create bias by giving too much information to the expert?
[01:58:04.700 --> 01:58:08.880]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But you asked Stacy, you know, and it's like, you were screaming that when it was happening.
[01:58:09.060 --> 01:58:10.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Why is he getting that information?
[01:58:11.540 --> 01:58:11.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[01:58:12.140 --> 01:58:18.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: It's Brennan's counter argument to ARCA should have gotten it when the answer is no, neither of them should have gotten it.
[01:58:18.660 --> 01:58:20.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: He shouldn't have had eight gigs of data.
[01:58:21.180 --> 01:58:24.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: All he needs to do is to do a biomechanical reconstruction.
[01:58:24.900 --> 01:58:27.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: He doesn't need eight gigs of data to do that.
[01:58:27.680 --> 01:58:33.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: And he certainly doesn't need facts that have nothing to do with a biomechanical analysis at all.
[01:58:34.320 --> 01:58:38.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: That whole part of it has just been driving me insane.
[01:58:38.620 --> 01:58:41.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: And they did the same thing during the initial trial.
[01:58:42.260 --> 01:58:51.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: In terms of that analysis, it matters not whether or not John O'Keefe's DNA was found on that taillight, not in terms of that analysis.
[01:58:51.460 --> 01:59:00.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: There's no part of that that has anything to do with the physics of whether or not John O'Keefe's body could have caused that damage to the Lexus, period.
[01:59:00.900 --> 01:59:11.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: You know, and it's like, she just keeps allowing the Commonwealth to put forth that proposition that it matters when it doesn't, you know, and it's really frustrating.
[01:59:11.260 --> 01:59:15.260]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: No one saw him throw a glass.
[01:59:15.760 --> 01:59:19.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: No one saw a car hit somebody.
[01:59:20.240 --> 01:59:26.780]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: No one even saw a man outside of a car or in a car when they looked at the car.
[01:59:27.140 --> 01:59:28.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah, I don't think of myself.
[01:59:28.680 --> 01:59:34.660]  [BOB MOTTA]: I nailed it because I said, look, when Hank said all that, I said, Hank, you just literally described your own case, right?
[01:59:34.860 --> 01:59:39.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: Quite literally that it's speculation as to what they're talking about is all speculation.
[01:59:39.260 --> 01:59:41.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: What you're talking about is speculation, Hank.
[01:59:41.620 --> 01:59:43.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: You haven't been able to prove a goddamn thing.
[01:59:43.420 --> 01:59:45.780]  [BOB MOTTA]: Otherwise you would have got a conviction the first time around, buddy.
[01:59:46.340 --> 01:59:47.760]  [BOB MOTTA]: Do you want to hear my speculation?
[01:59:48.160 --> 01:59:49.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: Do you want to hear my speculation?
[01:59:50.260 --> 02:00:07.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I don't often share my speculation, but I do have some speculation around the Tumblr canon, because to me, it just does seem like a little bit far of a length to go to just test a hypothesis that you have thought of out of your own head.
[02:00:07.620 --> 02:00:10.500]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It really seems like, I mean, this was expensive.
[02:00:10.720 --> 02:00:11.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: This took time.
[02:00:12.340 --> 02:00:13.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It took effort.
[02:00:13.820 --> 02:00:18.760]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: The FBI or the DOJ spent a lot of money on answering this question.
[02:00:19.260 --> 02:00:22.540]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Is the glass throne consistent with that?
[02:00:23.020 --> 02:00:42.220]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So my question then is, well, if they hadn't just thought this up for themselves, if this was literally something that they were asked to evaluate, which I think is a reasonable hypothesis given what's entailed in doing that actual testing, where might that have come up?
[02:00:42.260 --> 02:00:44.040]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And why may we not know about it?
[02:00:44.100 --> 02:00:45.880]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And here's my hypothesis.
[02:00:46.660 --> 02:00:54.320]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If that did happen, might have been one of the things that Karen would have told David Yannetti in her text on the phone.
[02:00:54.560 --> 02:00:57.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And we already know they had the early access to the phone.
[02:00:57.680 --> 02:00:59.220]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They were flipping through her phone.
[02:00:59.220 --> 02:01:04.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: A whole issue with running into attorney-client-privileged information.
[02:01:05.420 --> 02:01:11.740]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So that's why they can't just be open with it because they were never supposed to see that in the first place.
[02:01:11.800 --> 02:01:14.780]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They're never supposed to be able to rely on that.
[02:01:16.980 --> 02:01:22.940]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Obviously, rank speculation can't prove any of that, but it would fit the facts.
[02:01:23.540 --> 02:01:35.360]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But if she remembered it, don't you think she would have mentioned it in her documentary when she's like, he went inside and then he never came out and the noise, the music... The question is, does it help her?
[02:01:35.580 --> 02:01:38.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Is it potentially inculpatory?
[02:01:38.900 --> 02:01:39.500]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: He's mad.
[02:01:39.580 --> 02:01:41.420]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: He throws the glass at her.
[02:01:41.540 --> 02:01:42.880]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It means there was a fight.
[02:01:43.380 --> 02:01:50.700]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Does that tend to support the Commonwealth's theory that maybe she did then get mad and back up and hit into him?
[02:01:50.780 --> 02:01:55.040]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It doesn't necessarily help her if that in fact happened.
[02:01:56.040 --> 02:02:04.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And the other thing too, that was in this whole picture, is we know they were looking out the window.
[02:02:05.020 --> 02:02:06.540]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We know they were looking out the window.
[02:02:06.620 --> 02:02:11.320]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They've told us like a million stories of what they were seeing out the window and so forth.
[02:02:11.680 --> 02:02:13.200]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So entertain the possibility.
[02:02:13.560 --> 02:02:23.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: They saw that outside the window and they know, might that be like a trigger point for conflict between say Higgins and John O'Keefe?
[02:02:23.740 --> 02:02:37.280]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: To me, it might kind of make some sense about why things would like spill over instantaneously if they're already kind of from what we see from the video at the waterfall, that surveillance video, it looks like there might be some tension between them.
[02:02:37.420 --> 02:02:44.880]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We already know there's this whole issue with the romantic entanglements and whatnot.
[02:02:45.440 --> 02:02:50.940]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So might that trigger why things apparently went down so quickly?
[02:02:51.160 --> 02:02:54.000]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I'm just saying, it kind of maybe fits with the facts.
[02:02:54.240 --> 02:02:54.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:02:54.600 --> 02:03:10.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: Well, as soon as that came out at trial, that the text message from Higgins like, well, so, or whatever the hell he says, like, uh, well, or whatever he says, and you have the concept that they're driving to the house.
[02:03:10.980 --> 02:03:12.600]  [BOB MOTTA]: She's got her phone plugged in.
[02:03:12.820 --> 02:03:15.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: It's a, it's a late model Lexus.
[02:03:15.340 --> 02:03:22.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: We all know that if she's got her phone plugged in, that there's a likelihood that that text may have popped up on her screen.
[02:03:22.540 --> 02:03:30.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: And I'm talking about the text from Higgins to Karen that incites the argument that then has him going in hot.
[02:03:30.520 --> 02:03:31.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: I said the exact same thing.
[02:03:31.780 --> 02:03:44.320]  [BOB MOTTA]: I'm like, once I saw that, that clearly gave me a very, very solid explanation of why John O'Keefe, who was at a 0.286, who was a hammered Boston cop.
[02:03:44.580 --> 02:03:54.800]  [BOB MOTTA]: And if you know anything about Bostonians and Irish Bostonians and Irish cop Bostonians, they like to fight, you know, so like would have gone in hot on that.
[02:03:54.860 --> 02:04:13.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it, it really, it gave it a lot of plausibility as to how that thing could have gotten out of hand in that house quickly in terms of if you're buying the defense's theory, you know, it, it really, it, it closed a lot of, of, of loopholes and gaps for me because then it kind of made sense.
[02:04:14.040 --> 02:04:28.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: Or if they're simply having the conversation and the Higgins thing is brought up, you know, like, I mean, who knows how it gets brought up, but, but we know that that thing is percolating at that moment in time, you know, as of that night.
[02:04:28.400 --> 02:04:28.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: So yeah.
[02:04:29.000 --> 02:04:40.180]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I agree, Andrea, that, that if that had happened, that would be something the lawyers would say, you can't place him in the last place he's seen is on the corner of you and you driving away.
[02:04:40.340 --> 02:04:41.840]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: That's a bad look.
[02:04:41.980 --> 02:04:49.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And he's pissed at you and he's, he's angry and attacking you and you're, and we're supposed to believe you did, you did nothing about it and you just drove away.
[02:04:49.280 --> 02:04:58.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I mean, it's, it's not, it's not really particularly helpful to her, but you know, it also kind of explains why, why would you manufacture bumper sprinkles on this car?
[02:04:59.440 --> 02:05:01.700]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I mean, the glass doesn't match.
[02:05:01.800 --> 02:05:03.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We know the glass doesn't match.
[02:05:03.780 --> 02:05:05.060]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Where the heck did it come from?
[02:05:05.180 --> 02:05:07.580]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: How did it get on the bumper in the Canton Sally port?
[02:05:07.720 --> 02:05:17.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: If you already know this piece of the picture, because somebody who's in the window, you know, looking at it, or cause you read it on the phone or whatever, you know what you need to to build up your hoax.
[02:05:18.080 --> 02:05:24.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You need to sprinkle the, the tail light pieces around the scene and you need to try to try to get more evidence on the car too.
[02:05:24.240 --> 02:05:25.700]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: How about some bumper sprinkles?
[02:05:27.240 --> 02:05:35.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: The magic glass, which reminds me, I've got to get started on the 70,000 documents regarding the magic bullet and JFK's assassination.
[02:05:35.880 --> 02:05:40.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: Allison started digging into that last night with like, a lot of people were saying there wasn't much new.
[02:05:41.500 --> 02:05:41.880]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:05:41.900 --> 02:05:46.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: I've heard that I've, I've, you know, and then there's other people saying that the whole world was in on it.
[02:05:46.900 --> 02:05:51.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: So it's somewhere in between, I imagine.
[02:05:52.040 --> 02:05:52.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[02:05:53.320 --> 02:05:54.780]  [BOB MOTTA]: Andrea, you're the best.
[02:05:54.960 --> 02:05:55.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: We love having you.
[02:05:56.280 --> 02:05:57.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: Welcome home.
[02:05:57.520 --> 02:05:59.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: I want to hear all the details about that trip.
[02:06:00.240 --> 02:06:05.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: I'm going to try to send my wife to y'all, but if I'm not with her, you guys can't leave her just floating out in the ether.
[02:06:05.320 --> 02:06:08.660]  [BOB MOTTA]: She'll be, she'll be a lonely girl out there in Vegas all by herself.
[02:06:08.880 --> 02:06:10.100]  [BOB MOTTA]: No, we wouldn't have it.
[02:06:10.360 --> 02:06:11.260]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We'd never have it.
[02:06:11.300 --> 02:06:12.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We'd take good care of your girl.
[02:06:12.620 --> 02:06:13.360]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah.
[02:06:13.920 --> 02:06:15.140]  [BOB MOTTA]: You're, you're amazing.
[02:06:15.280 --> 02:06:15.760]  [BOB MOTTA]: We love you.
[02:06:15.880 --> 02:06:21.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: Hey, uh, make sure that I'm assuming that you guys have been throwing Andrea's channel in the chat all night.
[02:06:21.300 --> 02:06:22.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: I'm assuming you guys have been doing that.
[02:06:22.760 --> 02:06:26.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: My, my, uh, mods are always very, very good about doing that.
[02:06:26.100 --> 02:06:32.320]  [BOB MOTTA]: Uh, as if you guys don't know, uh, and shouldn't already be, uh, subbed over to, to Andrea's place.
[02:06:32.440 --> 02:06:35.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: So let's, let's do it again sometime, like real soon.
[02:06:35.780 --> 02:06:35.780]  Definitely.
[02:06:36.260 --> 02:06:40.100]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: But let's talk like, Dr. Gonda is quoting Andrea.
[02:06:40.380 --> 02:06:42.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: We are better than the monsters.
[02:06:44.000 --> 02:06:44.840]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: What a quote.
[02:06:45.420 --> 02:06:45.900]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: We'll do it.
[02:06:46.020 --> 02:06:48.440]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I have so much catching up to do on Coburger too.
[02:06:48.540 --> 02:06:51.160]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I haven't covered him on my channel since the motions to suppress.
[02:06:51.440 --> 02:06:55.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So, and there's been, I mean, there's a ton, there was like 40 some documents that dropped.
[02:06:55.620 --> 02:06:57.940]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So tell us one story from your trip.
[02:06:58.640 --> 02:06:58.940]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Yeah.
[02:06:58.940 --> 02:07:01.380]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Tell us, tell us your favorite story before you dip.
[02:07:01.920 --> 02:07:02.700]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Oh man.
[02:07:03.140 --> 02:07:06.040]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I, I, it's, I can't, I can't, there was so much.
[02:07:06.160 --> 02:07:15.280]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Um, my, my, my girl, Heidi, Heidi, as I always talk about, she's the artist who did my fish, uh, and my fish, you know, or my, my banner on my channel and stuff.
[02:07:15.740 --> 02:07:20.740]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Um, she came down to South America, uh, with one of, one of mutual friends as well.
[02:07:20.940 --> 02:07:24.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Uh, she was down there with me for about, I want to say about three weeks.
[02:07:24.940 --> 02:07:27.560]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Uh, and we just, we had such a wonderful time.
[02:07:27.620 --> 02:07:29.380]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: It was such a great experience.
[02:07:29.820 --> 02:07:34.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Um, we got to see some new things, probably my, my favorite, my favorite part.
[02:07:34.680 --> 02:07:38.060]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I love new discoveries and I had lots of new discoveries on this trip.
[02:07:38.500 --> 02:07:42.340]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Um, but one of my favorite ones was, um, Valle Cochemo.
[02:07:42.700 --> 02:07:46.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Valle Cochemo is, um, known as the Yosemite of South America.
[02:07:46.720 --> 02:07:49.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: When I heard that, I'm like, bitch, please.
[02:07:49.300 --> 02:07:49.500]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Okay.
[02:07:49.600 --> 02:07:51.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You know how many times I've been to Yosemite?
[02:07:51.200 --> 02:07:52.760]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You know how amazing that place is?
[02:07:53.040 --> 02:07:54.840]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Uh, they're not lying.
[02:07:54.880 --> 02:08:07.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And not only is it so spectacular, it's like what Yosemite is when there's no road, there's no road in, you don't have a hundred million buses and tourists and motor homes and stuff like that.
[02:08:08.040 --> 02:08:12.240]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Uh, you have to hike yourself in, uh, or you got to ride a horse.
[02:08:12.340 --> 02:08:15.980]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so it's just, it's just a magical place.
[02:08:15.980 --> 02:08:17.180]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Um, really spectacular.
[02:08:17.180 --> 02:08:26.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so being able to share that with, um, people who mean so much to me was something very, very special and valuable and healing and wonderful.
[02:08:26.460 --> 02:08:27.100]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And I will never forget.
[02:08:27.100 --> 02:08:28.620]  [BOB MOTTA]: It was so reinvigorating.
[02:08:28.900 --> 02:08:31.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like that whole thing just looked amazing.
[02:08:31.240 --> 02:08:34.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like to the shots that you would send were just fabulous.
[02:08:34.200 --> 02:08:36.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: I was like, oh my God, I was so, so envious.
[02:08:37.260 --> 02:08:42.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: Now I have to go back and look because you know, I, I don't have time on social media, so I haven't seen it.
[02:08:42.000 --> 02:08:46.560]  [BOB MOTTA]: You're not spending much time on social media, but when she would post some pics, they were fire.
[02:08:46.800 --> 02:08:49.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: They were like just unbelievably beautiful.
[02:08:49.580 --> 02:08:52.120]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Well, I share, I share stuff like that on Instagram too.
[02:08:52.280 --> 02:08:55.520]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So just, you know, it's about all I do on Instagram for what it's worth.
[02:08:55.580 --> 02:08:59.260]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But if you're interested in things like my pictures I take, that's, that's where you'll find it.
[02:09:00.000 --> 02:09:18.780]  [BOB MOTTA]: Well, we're happy you're home and we're happy you're safe and we're happy that it was an amazing trip because, uh, yeah, it was, uh, and you had earned it because coming out of that Delphi thing, man, all those weeks before she had line sitters putting in the time.
[02:09:18.960 --> 02:09:19.780]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh my God, dude.
[02:09:19.860 --> 02:09:24.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like it felt like it, like, and I, I didn't have to put up with that shit.
[02:09:24.420 --> 02:09:26.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: And it felt like we came out of a trial.
[02:09:27.420 --> 02:09:35.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like it was, it was very close to feeling like when it was over, like we had actually done a trial or something.
[02:09:35.100 --> 02:09:37.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like, I mean, I really kind of felt like that.
[02:09:37.400 --> 02:09:42.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: Cause it was like, it was like just rinse, wash, repeat every single day.
[02:09:42.240 --> 02:09:44.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like every day was the exact same thing.
[02:09:44.340 --> 02:09:49.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like in terms of us getting home, us working all day in the court, because make no bones about it.
[02:09:49.560 --> 02:09:50.160]  [BOB MOTTA]: That was work.
[02:09:50.360 --> 02:09:52.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like we were in there, there was no relaxation.
[02:09:52.960 --> 02:09:55.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: We were in there busting our asses.
[02:09:55.480 --> 02:09:57.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: You had a whole different experience.
[02:09:57.220 --> 02:10:04.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank God that you had like wonderful people line sitting at some point to give you the, like you, like I felt so horrible for you.
[02:10:04.320 --> 02:10:14.160]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I was wondering, I was like, how, how is she doing this without, I kept telling you, I know at this age, a lack of sleep affects your, your, the, the speed by which you think.
[02:10:15.280 --> 02:10:21.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I'm not sure how, like, she's even thinking fast enough to write all this and then do a live and then write a petition.
[02:10:22.500 --> 02:10:23.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And then sleep.
[02:10:23.760 --> 02:10:23.920]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:10:24.160 --> 02:10:27.800]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Well, I, I would have crashed at some point, you know, I mean, that, that really is the reality.
[02:10:27.960 --> 02:10:31.540]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I would have, I would have, you know, kept up the brave face and like, I'm going to do it.
[02:10:31.580 --> 02:10:37.440]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And I would have given it my best, but you just, you know, like you're saying you can't, the body, the body will fail long before the world does.
[02:10:37.960 --> 02:10:49.660]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So I will never stop being grateful to the line sitters and my angel, everybody who, who showed up and, and helped make that, make that possible.
[02:10:50.260 --> 02:10:58.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Because it was, I mean, I, I, I think of it as like, it was like running a, a, an 800 meter in the Olympics, like every single day.
[02:10:58.720 --> 02:11:00.620]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I like the 800 meter.
[02:11:00.620 --> 02:11:03.880]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Cause it's like both a sprint and a kind of long distance event.
[02:11:03.880 --> 02:11:04.720]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Like you got, you got it.
[02:11:04.760 --> 02:11:05.580]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You got to have both.
[02:11:05.840 --> 02:11:10.780]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Like you got to be really intense, but you also got to have that, have that staying power.
[02:11:11.080 --> 02:11:23.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: And then once you pulled the shit where you guys, once you got in, that it reset after the lunch break, stuck in the courthouse in that line, that like, that's what I just, I kept going.
[02:11:23.160 --> 02:11:25.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: I'm like, dude, you need to go eat.
[02:11:25.340 --> 02:11:26.420]  [BOB MOTTA]: I'm going to stand here.
[02:11:26.500 --> 02:11:28.520]  [BOB MOTTA]: When you get out, you're like, I brought a little lunch.
[02:11:28.580 --> 02:11:28.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: I'm like, what?
[02:11:29.820 --> 02:11:32.280]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Well, you didn't, you just, you didn't have time anyway.
[02:11:32.500 --> 02:11:45.400]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: You really didn't like even, even standing there in line because you never knew when you were going to have to gather everything up and, and, and go back upstairs and line up there, you know, first you line up here, then the bailiffs will move you over here and you got to line up there.
[02:11:45.400 --> 02:11:49.200]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And you know, if you miss your point at any point, then, then it's time to go in the courtroom.
[02:11:49.500 --> 02:11:54.000]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And so everything is just geared around kind of keeping us off balance.
[02:11:54.720 --> 02:11:59.320]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: So it ended up being the easiest thing to just like, I know, I know what food is calorie dense.
[02:11:59.320 --> 02:12:04.920]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: I will just, I will eat cheese for six weeks and function.
[02:12:05.240 --> 02:12:09.800]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: And then yes, when I got home, I did crash and I got very sick for a while.
[02:12:10.860 --> 02:12:17.140]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: But you know, hence a long recovery down in South America and and things are definitely on the upswing now.
[02:12:17.420 --> 02:12:18.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: So it was well-earned my friend.
[02:12:19.160 --> 02:12:25.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: Well, thank you for hanging with us tonight and hopefully one or both of us sees you in the next week or so.
[02:12:26.020 --> 02:12:27.100]  [BOB MOTTA]: Well, it's okay.
[02:12:27.420 --> 02:12:27.840]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: All right.
[02:12:28.520 --> 02:12:34.140]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I thought it was like, you know, destination unknown type of thing, but...
[02:12:34.140 --> 02:12:35.100]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I didn't say shit.
[02:12:35.340 --> 02:12:35.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: All right.
[02:12:36.040 --> 02:12:36.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:12:36.320 --> 02:12:36.640]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[02:12:36.880 --> 02:12:37.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[02:12:37.520 --> 02:12:38.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: We love you.
[02:12:38.640 --> 02:12:39.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: Be good to yourself.
[02:12:39.980 --> 02:12:40.960]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thanks for hanging with us.
[02:12:41.100 --> 02:12:41.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:12:41.300 --> 02:12:42.000]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Take care guys.
[02:12:42.120 --> 02:12:42.660]  [ANDREA BURKHART]: Always a pleasure.
[02:12:43.140 --> 02:12:43.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[02:12:43.500 --> 02:12:43.700]  [BOB MOTTA]: Bye.
[02:12:44.240 --> 02:12:44.580]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[02:12:44.580 --> 02:12:46.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: Let's thank some folks and then you know...
[02:12:47.060 --> 02:12:53.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And yes, everyone who has not already subbed, I'm sure most of you have, just make sure you do it.
[02:12:54.340 --> 02:13:07.280]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I said thank you to our new members, Dana and Curious Liz, the generosity of Melissa with her always gifting memberships, Generation X girl, 10 months.
[02:13:07.800 --> 02:13:08.460]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Hi friend.
[02:13:08.980 --> 02:13:10.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Excited for the live.
[02:13:11.260 --> 02:13:13.000]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you for your generosity.
[02:13:13.240 --> 02:13:17.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Afton and Annie, I mentioned earlier.
[02:13:18.400 --> 02:13:20.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Gen X again, thanks for your generosity.
[02:13:21.380 --> 02:13:27.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Member plus the stickers, Aspiring Court Reporter ad rev replacement.
[02:13:27.540 --> 02:13:28.500]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Appreciate it.
[02:13:28.680 --> 02:13:29.460]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Appreciate it.
[02:13:29.840 --> 02:13:31.700]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Meg P with the 10 memberships.
[02:13:32.200 --> 02:13:35.160]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Dr. Vonda thanking us and we thank you.
[02:13:36.820 --> 02:13:38.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Lisa Shelton, thanks for your generosity.
[02:13:43.200 --> 02:13:45.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Kathy's been a member for over a year.
[02:13:45.600 --> 02:13:46.620]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks for your generosity.
[02:13:47.320 --> 02:13:52.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Melissa again, I meant five months, sorry, but still good.
[02:13:52.760 --> 02:13:55.700]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh no, she said I've been a member for over a year.
[02:13:55.920 --> 02:13:56.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Okay.
[02:13:56.220 --> 02:13:56.440]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: OG.
[02:13:56.780 --> 02:13:56.880]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yes.
[02:13:58.560 --> 02:13:59.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: That's why I said that.
[02:14:00.060 --> 02:14:04.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I was like, um, Melissa, again, five more.
[02:14:04.860 --> 02:14:05.480]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks again.
[02:14:06.120 --> 02:14:06.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Give it up.
[02:14:06.940 --> 02:14:07.440]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Love it.
[02:14:07.580 --> 02:14:07.860]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yes.
[02:14:08.220 --> 02:14:14.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And then, um, NOLA mama, ah, New Orleans, we're missing this year Jazz Fest.
[02:14:15.120 --> 02:14:18.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Are they able to tell whether the snap was on her?
[02:14:19.660 --> 02:14:23.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Babe, we have jam and my morning jacket.
[02:14:23.620 --> 02:14:24.600]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh my gosh.
[02:14:25.040 --> 02:14:27.400]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I do keep not booking things in court.
[02:14:28.340 --> 02:14:38.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I told two judges already that I, I might, might not be here even though we're not supposed to go.
[02:14:38.160 --> 02:14:38.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So I don't know.
[02:14:38.920 --> 02:14:42.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I, as opposed to snap being taken on another device and then shared on her account.
[02:14:42.900 --> 02:14:54.400]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And I read this while she was going and I thought she sort of touched on it with like when she was saying that she can't really speak to why it wasn't there because they don't know if the picture started on the phone, if the picture started on the snap and,
[02:14:54.860 --> 02:15:08.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: um, but she also said that there's not, uh, just like, oops, this disappeared because they were doing, um, I didn't ask the metadata one because they were doing, you know, repowering or whatever it was.
[02:15:09.000 --> 02:15:11.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: ACV, thanks for your generosity.
[02:15:11.480 --> 02:15:12.700]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Pay for justice.
[02:15:13.220 --> 02:15:15.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Uh, K-Dawg, thanks for your generosity.
[02:15:16.120 --> 02:15:18.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Three pretty babies, ladies and Bob.
[02:15:19.120 --> 02:15:24.200]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Uh, Melanie again, continuing with her generosity or Melissa, sorry, Melissa.
[02:15:24.960 --> 02:15:25.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yellow jackets.
[02:15:26.120 --> 02:15:28.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Did anyone analyze black light data?
[02:15:28.100 --> 02:15:29.260]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I did throw that in there.
[02:15:29.340 --> 02:15:30.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I saw your comments.
[02:15:30.380 --> 02:15:33.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So thank you for your, uh, generosity to me.
[02:15:34.180 --> 02:15:42.500]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: You know, the phone not like back lit light data, not triggering suggests the phone isn't really moving around.
[02:15:42.580 --> 02:15:44.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So I don't know.
[02:15:44.660 --> 02:15:45.620]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I don't know.
[02:15:46.080 --> 02:15:46.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I don't know either.
[02:15:47.960 --> 02:15:49.640]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Um, new member.
[02:15:51.020 --> 02:15:52.460]  [BOB MOTTA]: Aw, family hug.
[02:15:52.640 --> 02:15:53.440]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: There you go.
[02:15:53.700 --> 02:15:54.640]  [BOB MOTTA]: I did it.
[02:15:54.840 --> 02:15:55.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: I did it.
[02:15:56.080 --> 02:15:57.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I did it.
[02:15:57.360 --> 02:15:58.420]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Uh, we sleuthy.
[02:15:58.520 --> 02:16:00.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I think you got that answer throughout this.
[02:16:00.820 --> 02:16:03.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Um, we touched on this one too.
[02:16:03.720 --> 02:16:06.260]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Uh, two devices signed into the same account.
[02:16:06.360 --> 02:16:08.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: We'll upload the same video on all devices.
[02:16:08.680 --> 02:16:12.620]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Does Apple show which device it was originally filmed on?
[02:16:12.700 --> 02:16:13.280]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Do we know?
[02:16:13.480 --> 02:16:16.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So I don't think that she would have known the answer.
[02:16:16.220 --> 02:16:31.400]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: She would have known that a, uh, the extraction report, I think in the same way that it says this information's coming from a sink would say, you know, this information's coming from a, from a download, not on the device itself.
[02:16:32.100 --> 02:16:35.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Um, oh, sorry, DB.
[02:16:35.360 --> 02:16:37.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I did not, I did not see that.
[02:16:38.020 --> 02:16:38.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: He was joking anyway.
[02:16:39.240 --> 02:16:45.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: That was like the whole thing, like saying that she wasn't qualified to talk about AT&T shit.
[02:16:45.380 --> 02:16:45.640]  [BOB MOTTA]: Cause she did.
[02:16:45.780 --> 02:16:46.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: Oh yeah.
[02:16:46.060 --> 02:16:47.220]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I was going to ask her about that.
[02:16:47.340 --> 02:16:53.520]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I had all, a lot of you guys put geo-fencing questions in your, in the, in the comments.
[02:16:53.940 --> 02:17:09.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And I don't think she like the, the geo-fencing wasn't something they didn't let her speak on it, but I was going to ask some of them, but we got to the end, uh, Sarita new member and she double generous, super sticker, double family hug, Tammy.
[02:17:09.940 --> 02:17:11.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you for your generosity.
[02:17:11.300 --> 02:17:16.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Any indication that information photographs were downloaded from that plug being inserted?
[02:17:16.520 --> 02:17:39.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And I saw this before and I thought that she kind of answered that not directly, obviously, but just that there's, I don't think there'd be any reason, um, that, that plug insertion, because it's a, back then it would have been like a, the ox, right, babe with a circle.
[02:17:39.020 --> 02:17:48.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So there's no data device that, that would have fit into that back then, uh, as opposed to, it was interesting because I was speculating last night.
[02:17:48.340 --> 02:17:57.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: Um, I think I was actually on the phone with Osbrook and I was talking about the concept that back then, you know, the, the AirPods weren't a thing.
[02:17:57.360 --> 02:18:02.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: So you had to have, everything was wired in terms of headphones when you back, when you had the Oscars.
[02:18:02.440 --> 02:18:15.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: So I had, I had opined to, to Michael, I'm like, you know, maybe she had headphones in, like maybe she had, no, but I was thinking, couldn't they have done that like a noise canceling thing or they put.
[02:18:15.760 --> 02:18:21.900]  [BOB MOTTA]: No, I'm talking about Libby that day that maybe she had plugged in headphones, like that they were there accessible.
[02:18:22.800 --> 02:18:33.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: But then when, uh, Stacey said that she didn't see any access to that port throughout the entirety of that day, other than those two times, it kind of poo-pooed my whole concept.
[02:18:33.620 --> 02:18:42.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I was saying that kidnappers could have done it like a sensory deprivation type of scenario, but a new member, Kathy.
[02:18:44.200 --> 02:18:51.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: That's a little play on Kathy Shank, the woman who somehow solved the case.
[02:18:51.540 --> 02:18:51.540]  Yeah.
[02:18:51.680 --> 02:18:53.200]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Melissa, more generosity.
[02:18:53.960 --> 02:18:58.180]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: 876 represents the number of days Rick has been in jail.
[02:18:59.100 --> 02:19:03.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: How much data is lost each time a phone extraction is done?
[02:19:04.040 --> 02:19:18.480]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And she did answer that, that it, you do lose some data each time, but first in first out with the exception of like the, uh, powering off, uh, log keeps the very last power cycle.
[02:19:18.760 --> 02:19:19.720]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So, oops, sorry.
[02:19:19.980 --> 02:19:22.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: I, oh, that's, that's my fault.
[02:19:22.320 --> 02:19:25.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: Oh, we're we, uh, thank you.
[02:19:25.160 --> 02:19:25.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah, we did.
[02:19:25.800 --> 02:19:26.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: We broke 39K.
[02:19:26.800 --> 02:19:28.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: We're actually at 39, four.
[02:19:28.440 --> 02:19:31.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: So we're like a 39, like four and a half.
[02:19:31.980 --> 02:19:33.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: Let me know when we're at a hundred K.
[02:19:33.900 --> 02:19:34.400]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:19:34.760 --> 02:19:38.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Deja who 40,000, 40,000.
[02:19:38.220 --> 02:19:39.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Did we hit 40 yet?
[02:19:39.560 --> 02:19:40.120]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: We're close.
[02:19:40.300 --> 02:19:42.360]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: We're 50 away.
[02:19:42.500 --> 02:19:43.780]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So thanks for your generosity.
[02:19:43.940 --> 02:19:45.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Free Richard Allen.
[02:19:46.620 --> 02:19:48.700]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Uh, love you, Deja.
[02:19:49.100 --> 02:19:51.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: What is, I couldn't figure this.
[02:19:52.280 --> 02:19:54.600]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: If we, uh, we read about you.
[02:19:54.660 --> 02:19:55.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you for speaking truth.
[02:19:56.500 --> 02:19:57.720]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh, okay.
[02:19:58.740 --> 02:19:59.180]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Prococet.
[02:19:59.880 --> 02:20:03.260]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you for your generosity of being a member for 11 months.
[02:20:03.480 --> 02:20:05.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: Tell you what, Allie could find some case law.
[02:20:05.320 --> 02:20:08.600]  [BOB MOTTA]: She can't read, uh, some texts, uh, like what are they called?
[02:20:09.160 --> 02:20:09.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: Prococet.
[02:20:09.400 --> 02:20:11.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: Oh, you mean like the about.
[02:20:11.520 --> 02:20:13.320]  [BOB MOTTA]: The abbreviation shit.
[02:20:13.960 --> 02:20:15.040]  [BOB MOTTA]: That ain't your jam.
[02:20:15.680 --> 02:20:17.600]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Uh, Nick, thanks for your generosity.
[02:20:17.760 --> 02:20:22.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I destroyed my liver on two get me drunk fundraisers.
[02:20:22.660 --> 02:20:26.660]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Hope that gave four to five hours of expert work.
[02:20:26.780 --> 02:20:27.740]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: She did say she got it.
[02:20:27.820 --> 02:20:28.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Some from fundraisers.
[02:20:29.160 --> 02:20:29.740]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: There you go.
[02:20:30.200 --> 02:20:32.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Melissa again, gifting more.
[02:20:33.480 --> 02:20:33.840]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Very generous.
[02:20:34.000 --> 02:20:35.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you, Sally.
[02:20:35.460 --> 02:20:36.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks for your generosity.
[02:20:36.760 --> 02:20:37.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Great panel.
[02:20:37.460 --> 02:20:38.180]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks DD.
[02:20:39.360 --> 02:20:41.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Um, ABC's docket.
[02:20:41.200 --> 02:20:42.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks for your generosity.
[02:20:42.440 --> 02:20:43.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:20:43.080 --> 02:20:43.640]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:20:44.960 --> 02:20:45.880]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Um, idiot.
[02:20:45.980 --> 02:20:52.580]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: When gifted 20 diary podcast member, I w coming cranking.
[02:20:52.700 --> 02:20:53.400]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I covered that.
[02:20:53.460 --> 02:20:54.700]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks for your generosity.
[02:20:55.300 --> 02:20:56.580]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Don Kraken.
[02:20:56.700 --> 02:20:56.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Sorry.
[02:20:57.080 --> 02:20:58.280]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I don't know why I keep doing that.
[02:20:58.580 --> 02:21:00.840]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Don Burke, 16 months.
[02:21:01.080 --> 02:21:01.760]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:21:01.940 --> 02:21:03.420]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: So that's OG.
[02:21:04.060 --> 02:21:04.240]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yes.
[02:21:04.380 --> 02:21:06.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thanks for your generosity.
[02:21:06.480 --> 02:21:12.320]  [BOB MOTTA]: Actually be the first member of defense diaries, YouTube channel.
[02:21:12.380 --> 02:21:13.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like I'm serious.
[02:21:13.080 --> 02:21:17.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: I think she's, there's a couple of like super OGs and she's definitely one of those.
[02:21:18.560 --> 02:21:18.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks Don.
[02:21:19.220 --> 02:21:21.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And, uh, Lisa, thanks for your generosity.
[02:21:21.440 --> 02:21:24.040]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And yeah, she was excited that we brought up Idaho.
[02:21:24.700 --> 02:21:25.140]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:21:25.520 --> 02:21:29.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Lisa's been digging into some Idaho for thanks for your generosity.
[02:21:29.500 --> 02:21:31.860]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Lisa still feels like she's on the other side now.
[02:21:32.220 --> 02:21:34.460]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Uh, I, Bob and I were sort of always on.
[02:21:34.560 --> 02:21:34.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I will.
[02:21:35.020 --> 02:21:36.500]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Bob was way on it.
[02:21:36.760 --> 02:21:42.700]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I was a little further from him cause I was noticing some lies and what the defense was saying.
[02:21:43.360 --> 02:21:57.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Um, but you know, if they don't have an exact date and Andrea's right, and I'm going to assume she is for now that they gave a range that, that does give a range from March 10th to the 20th in terms of the purchase.
[02:21:57.760 --> 02:22:01.180]  [BOB MOTTA]: If they had a, we all know that's not the way it works.
[02:22:01.180 --> 02:22:03.560]  [BOB MOTTA]: We're not putting all their evidence out in these motions.
[02:22:03.560 --> 02:22:05.500]  [BOB MOTTA]: You know, like they were just trying to rebuff.
[02:22:06.180 --> 02:22:07.080]  [BOB MOTTA]: I don't know.
[02:22:07.080 --> 02:22:10.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: Look, look, look, you know, be mad at me or not.
[02:22:10.520 --> 02:22:11.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: I feel like they got the right guy.
[02:22:12.200 --> 02:22:12.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: Pending trial.
[02:22:13.120 --> 02:22:14.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: It's that simple.
[02:22:14.660 --> 02:22:23.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Lisa says, if we'd love her, if y'all love me, the three of you regroup tomorrow, we go through BK documents because I haven't.
[02:22:23.420 --> 02:22:37.400]  [BOB MOTTA]: Oh, you guys have COVID or tomorrow, by the way, no felonious Friday, Ali and I are having to drive five hours for a memorial service for a dear friend.
[02:22:37.660 --> 02:22:48.920]  [BOB MOTTA]: So, um, no live tomorrow, no live tomorrow, but, but I am a hundred, but there were so many, so many like Koberger documents and traces.
[02:22:49.160 --> 02:22:52.120]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Is this the Koberger selfie she's talking about or something else?
[02:22:52.160 --> 02:22:53.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks again, Lisa.
[02:22:53.820 --> 02:22:56.020]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Did you guys like that selfie?
[02:22:56.760 --> 02:22:57.820]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh man.
[02:22:57.940 --> 02:22:58.120]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:22:58.420 --> 02:22:59.060]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Disturbing.
[02:22:59.060 --> 02:22:59.560]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:23:00.000 --> 02:23:01.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Full throat motion.
[02:23:01.560 --> 02:23:02.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks for your generosity.
[02:23:02.480 --> 02:23:07.160]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I haven't heard anything since skin suit still marinating on that one.
[02:23:07.200 --> 02:23:12.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Consider this payment for my upcoming use of that analogy, which skin suit.
[02:23:13.820 --> 02:23:16.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: Uh, I forget, I forget who said the skin suit.
[02:23:16.620 --> 02:23:17.060]  [BOB MOTTA]: It was either.
[02:23:17.200 --> 02:23:19.740]  [BOB MOTTA]: Oh, I think it was Andrea said skin suit.
[02:23:20.360 --> 02:23:25.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: She was, it's that they, I think she was talking about how they wear victims like a skin suit.
[02:23:25.540 --> 02:23:27.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: I think, I think that was in that conversation.
[02:23:27.820 --> 02:23:32.340]  [BOB MOTTA]: Uh, thanks again, Dr. Uh, Bonda new member, babe.
[02:23:33.440 --> 02:23:35.000]  [BOB MOTTA]: Family hug too bad.
[02:23:35.100 --> 02:23:37.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: If you don't like hugs, Mark, I'm giving you one anyway.
[02:23:38.540 --> 02:23:40.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Lisa again, continue generosity.
[02:23:40.740 --> 02:23:41.360]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Bob alley.
[02:23:41.480 --> 02:23:46.180]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Y'all are coming to my neck of the woods tomorrow and didn't remind me or want to hang out.
[02:23:47.200 --> 02:23:48.460]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: We are though.
[02:23:49.360 --> 02:23:50.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah, we're kind of in and out.
[02:23:51.240 --> 02:23:52.080]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: We are through.
[02:23:52.360 --> 02:23:52.800]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:23:52.840 --> 02:23:57.320]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: We're in and out for a, for a, but Lisa, you just weren't on the live yesterday.
[02:23:57.820 --> 02:23:59.700]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Proppy and friends.
[02:23:59.840 --> 02:24:00.600]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks for your generosity.
[02:24:00.840 --> 02:24:03.300]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: And Andrea should probably run for president.
[02:24:03.560 --> 02:24:04.940]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Yeah, she, she, she should.
[02:24:06.260 --> 02:24:08.200]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Um, aspiring reporter again.
[02:24:08.360 --> 02:24:09.200]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Thanks for your generosity.
[02:24:09.420 --> 02:24:12.580]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Petition for regular reoccurring Andrea co-lab.
[02:24:12.980 --> 02:24:14.680]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Uh, you guys have great chemistry.
[02:24:14.980 --> 02:24:16.980]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I'm sure we'll do it some more.
[02:24:17.060 --> 02:24:19.120]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Oh, six, another 16 months.
[02:24:19.340 --> 02:24:21.200]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I'm a super OG.
[02:24:21.700 --> 02:24:21.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: Wait.
[02:24:22.420 --> 02:24:22.760]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:24:23.780 --> 02:24:26.120]  [BOB MOTTA]: Meg P is definitely a super OG.
[02:24:26.120 --> 02:24:26.660]  [BOB MOTTA]: Yeah.
[02:24:26.900 --> 02:24:31.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like I wish there was some way I can go back and see who the OG OG was.
[02:24:31.480 --> 02:24:33.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: There's probably a notification somewhere.
[02:24:33.880 --> 02:24:35.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: Probably, probably.
[02:24:35.820 --> 02:24:36.200]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[02:24:36.260 --> 02:24:37.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: Great crowd tonight.
[02:24:37.520 --> 02:24:42.680]  [BOB MOTTA]: Uh, make sure please for the love of God, like it on the way out.
[02:24:42.780 --> 02:24:51.280]  [BOB MOTTA]: If you haven't, I haven't even looked, but like we have like a 10%, like if we get 20,000 views, we get 2000 likes.
[02:24:51.280 --> 02:24:54.440]  [BOB MOTTA]: I think that's kind of par for the course, but it sucks.
[02:24:54.620 --> 02:24:55.260]  [BOB MOTTA]: Do better.
[02:24:55.440 --> 02:24:57.360]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like help us get out into the algorithm.
[02:24:57.560 --> 02:24:59.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: This was a really informative, good live.
[02:24:59.900 --> 02:25:04.240]  [BOB MOTTA]: Help us by liking, sharing, subscribing, all the YouTube things.
[02:25:04.380 --> 02:25:10.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: And if you're replay crew, leave a comment, even if it's replay crew that helps us get out there too.
[02:25:11.020 --> 02:25:12.720]  [BOB MOTTA]: So you guys are the best mods.
[02:25:13.220 --> 02:25:13.820]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:25:13.840 --> 02:25:14.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:25:14.260 --> 02:25:14.840]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:25:15.240 --> 02:25:17.980]  [BOB MOTTA]: You guys are like amazing.
[02:25:18.220 --> 02:25:19.580]  [BOB MOTTA]: It's a full day at working.
[02:25:22.160 --> 02:25:26.220]  [BOB MOTTA]: Mandy and Tracy, you guys, thank you for all your behind the scenes.
[02:25:27.140 --> 02:25:27.540]  [BOB MOTTA]: Amazing.
[02:25:27.860 --> 02:25:30.940]  [BOB MOTTA]: Like Mandy just crushing the sound effects today.
[02:25:31.220 --> 02:25:33.660]  [BOB MOTTA]: Her hi-hat was a little bit off, but she's getting better.
[02:25:33.800 --> 02:25:34.380]  [BOB MOTTA]: She's getting better.
[02:25:35.660 --> 02:25:37.380]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I was waiting for her to yell at you.
[02:25:37.580 --> 02:25:39.900]  [ALLIE MOTTA]: I was waiting for like a sound to come yell at you.
[02:25:40.240 --> 02:25:41.020]  [BOB MOTTA]: I mean, she will.
[02:25:41.160 --> 02:25:42.300]  [BOB MOTTA]: She just does that in real life.
[02:25:42.560 --> 02:25:42.860]  [BOB MOTTA]: All right.
[02:25:42.920 --> 02:25:44.080]  [BOB MOTTA]: We love you guys so much.
[02:25:44.120 --> 02:25:44.480]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:25:44.500 --> 02:25:44.760]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you.
[02:25:44.820 --> 02:25:45.080]  [BOB MOTTA]: Thank you.