00:00 what happened today was a bombshell of a
00:03 confession dropped by the state there
00:05 were multiple confessions but there was
00:07 one that was way above all the others we
00:10 heard from Richard Allen's prison
00:12 psychologist Monica Waller Walla today
00:15 he confess to murdering Libby Libby
00:20 German age 14 Abigail Williams age 13 he
00:23 did that over and over but there was one
00:25 time that was by far the most important
00:28 we're going to cover all of them but
00:29 particularly that one tonight the reason
01:32 it was so much different from the others
01:34 and nothing else was even close it had
01:36 the right timing it matched the facts
01:39 that we know it had details and one
01:41 detail in specific that the state
01:43 managed to trace down and present with a
01:45 witness today it was truly a huge day
01:49 for the
01:50 state but the defense had an absolutely
01:54 amazing cross-examination of Dr Monica
01:57 Walla it was really well done and
01:00 clearly proved he was in mental
01:02 breakdown During the period of time when
01:04 he was confessing will that one
01:07 confession with all of the detail in it
01:10 will that be enough to convict Richard
01:12 Allen or will the jury say he was in bad
01:16 shape he was mistreated during that
01:17 period and we can't trust the
01:19 confessions even that one that is
01:22 ultimately I would say if you you could
01:24 almost take everything else out of the
01:26 case and that's how important today was
01:29 that's how important this one one
02:31 confession is it's all important it's
02:32 what probably will ultimately decide the
02:35 case in the minds of the juror so we
02:37 have to cover this it's GNA be a big
02:39 night so hopefully you can all see me
02:41 and um audio is fine oh great is it
02:43 still
02:44 blurry please oh well I don't know I
02:48 don't know what to do I I redid so
02:50 anyway my apologies I will try one other
02:52 thing sorry for
02:54 the nope I don't think that made any
02:57 difference I'll check all my connections
02:59 just in case
02:04 all right well that's what I can do last
02:06 time by the way it just popped up clear
02:08 later like nothing can be done about
02:11 that I don't have any idea what that was
02:13 about all right so everything that I
02:16 know to do done all right so let's keep
02:19 going um we had so these these
02:23 confessions I think are the most
02:25 important thing we're going to cover
02:26 those tonight and especially the ones
02:27 they did today there were two other
03:31 um two other one other witness tomorrow
03:34 we hear that the prosecution is going to
03:36 rest after one witness so tomorrow
03:39 afternoon or Friday the defense is
03:41 expected to begin its case and then we
03:45 understand it might be fairly short this
03:46 may all come to an end within about the
03:48 next week so one thing I would ask uh we
03:52 do need line sitters thank you so much
03:55 to Jen to Jolene to Ralph and Rose to
03:58 Melissa from yesterday thank you so much
03:60 much for all the people who have been
03:01 sitting in and helping with the line
03:03 sitters and we need a few more the link
03:06 to how to sign up for that is in the
03:07 description
03:09 below all right well let's let's go um
03:14 so Dr Monica Waller was up the judge oh
03:17 this was so amazing this was truly
03:19 amazing speaking of technical you know
03:22 how difficult it is to hear in the
03:23 courtroom it's almost impossible so
03:25 annoyingly every time the prosecution
03:27 gets up they say to the witness that see
04:30 that microphone in front of you pay no
04:32 attention to that because that's only
04:34 for the people in the audience speak up
04:37 loudly for us don't worry about the
04:39 microphone don't speak into the
04:41 microphone no need to do that well today
04:43 even worse than that the witness sat
04:45 down and pulled the microphone T her and
04:47 the judge said no no move that
04:49 microphone away from you so it was once
04:51 again almost impossible to she spoke
04:54 like a few words into the microphone
04:56 totally clear and then she moved it for
04:58 the men they're up so high you know
04:01 taller men that they're speaking right
04:03 into the microphone but the women are
04:04 like the the microphone is like out here
04:07 and pointed up above them so it's of no
04:09 use at
04:10 all so in 202 uh 22 to 2023 Monica Walla
04:16 was a lead psychologist at the Westville
04:18 facility where Richard Allen has been
04:21 incarcerated he um she began to see
04:24 Richard Allen from the time he got there
04:27 on no in November of 2022
05:30 for then and they did oh the it was
05:34 crazy they went through all of these
05:36 confessions and then they moved
05:37 backwards into his behaviors and then
05:40 they moved forward and backwards so it
05:42 goes like this all through the day I'm
05:44 going to take it in the order that it
05:46 was done at trial because I think that
05:48 will be the easiest for me to explain to
05:50 you but I'm going to be adding this back
05:52 into the timeline in fact we'll do a
05:53 whole separate section on the
05:55 confessions I may even do a separate
05:57 video on the confessions and look
05:60 looking at what his behaviors were
05:02 because it's so critical are all of his
05:05 Confessions undermined by the way he was
05:07 treated or do we have to just accept
05:10 that some of the fenu could not have
05:12 been known by anyone who had not
05:13 actually murdered Libby and Abby so
05:16 that's what we we will be thinking about
05:18 throughout this so um at the time he was
05:22 admitted to the facility to Westville he
05:26 was not of course he's still not
05:28 convicted of any crime
06:30 and he was instead someone who was being
06:34 placed there for safekeeping in other
06:36 words because they were afraid of his
06:37 mental health that maybe he would try to
06:40 harm himself or try to do something that
06:43 would create um danger for himself and
06:46 they didn't want that so they were
06:48 putting him in this facility however it
06:50 was a very restriced facility and
06:53 ultimately the overview of this is he
06:55 was kept in solitary confinement for
06:58 more than a year far far more than the
06:02 recommended absolute maximum guidelines
06:04 would permit the judge did not allow the
06:07 defense to use what they wanted to use
06:10 they wanted to use a study and a report
06:13 within the state of Indiana that says
06:15 how long people can be in solitary
06:18 confinement and cuts it off the judge
06:20 didn't allow that kept that out and as a
06:22 result they didn't have that to
06:24 cross-examine with but even so she
06:26 admitted that for somebody like Richard
06:29 Allen
07:30 that it would still be extremely
07:34 important um so he was a Meed she talked
07:39 about moved straight to that time period
07:42 last time when we talked yesterday about
07:44 all of the guards who were reporting on
07:47 confession after confession after
07:49 confession and on April 5th there she
07:54 did um she talked about that as well
07:58 they had regular monitoring the was
07:60 being done by people who were watching
07:03 him daily at this point it was inmates
07:05 in a on April 5th he he was being seen
07:09 and daily by her office and monitoring
07:14 was happening of him all the time he was
07:17 moved to an unal living watch where he
07:19 was moved from constant observation in
07:23 which is all the time and then he had
07:25 been moved to close observation which is
07:27 every 15 minutes and my checks two close
07:30 close observation so it went back and
08:31 forth like that he was placed on unal
08:35 living watch again in a on April 5th and
08:38 at this point there was someone um
08:41 constantly outside his door and they do
08:44 that only in severe cases she she talked
08:48 about the facility which holds many
08:50 people Richard Allen's cell is the
08:55 most the the most
08:58 restrictive cell within the entire place
08:02 and so this particular restrictive cell
08:04 is for people who are on Mental Health
08:07 have mental health issues but as a
08:09 result it's also very difficult for
08:12 somebody who has mental health issues
08:14 the irony of it all so she at at one
08:18 point in April she talked to him about
08:20 not just sorry see I told you they went
08:22 back and forth this is November in
08:24 November when he got there she talked to
08:26 him about don't discuss your case with
08:28 anybody because you don't have have a
09:30 public defender appointed yet and so you
09:32 haven't even talked your lawyer so be
09:34 careful talking to other people about
09:36 your case
09:38 and this question was asked and did you
09:41 believe Mr Allen knew the dangers of
09:45 talking that at and she said that answer
09:49 may be different at different points in
09:52 time so important because she was saying
09:56 yeah it's granted um there it may be
09:59 true that he at times knew that that was
09:02 dumb but there were times when I'm not
09:04 really sure that he was mentally capable
09:06 of understanding what he was doing she
09:09 asked was asked was he intelligent she
09:11 said yes so we'll pop into the
09:14 confessions um on April 5th she said uh
09:19 he said I killed Abby and Libby fairly
09:23 clear I became tear sorry he became
09:25 tearful and said he committed the
09:28 murders on his own
09:30 he said he made sure they were dead
10:32 because he did not want them to suffer
10:35 and he said no one helped him he said he
10:37 knew they were dead made sure they were
10:39 dead before he left the scene he said
10:41 his intentions were sexual in nature and
10:44 he said he thought they were older than
10:46 they were he thought they were 18 or 19
10:48 he had no idea that they were children
10:50 ages 13 and
10:52 14 why why would he do this the answer
10:55 was he'd been selfish all his life he
10:57 was a coward and he took their lives to
10:01 preserve his own he said in retrospect
10:04 he wanted to apologize to the families
10:06 and wished he could go back and change
10:08 his actions he said that he had
10:10 inappropriately touched his sister as a
10:12 child that he had experimented with male
10:15 and female children his age and that's
10:17 where the problem began he also admitted
10:20 alcoholism since 2011 but said his wife
10:24 cared for him all right let's talk a
10:27 little bit about that particular
10:29 confession because it has some details
11:32 in it but not necessarily details there
11:35 would be details about motive for
11:37 example but not really details that
11:38 would be unique to the crime that would
11:41 be only known to the killer you've got
11:44 for example the fact that they he they
11:47 were dead before he left the scene
11:49 that's probably true you've got the fact
11:52 that he made sure they were you got the
11:54 fact that he that he did it on his own
11:56 and that he killed them but none of that
11:58 is really something that is specific to
11:00 the crime that's the confession we're
11:03 going to get to in just a minute all of
11:05 this if he were deranged in theory he
11:08 could say each of these things knowing
11:10 nothing more about the murder each one
11:12 of these things he could just think of
11:14 knowing that the murder occurred if for
11:17 some reason he was driven mentally
11:19 insane for a period of
11:21 time all right the next confession
11:24 moving backwards I told you this was all
11:26 crazy March 21st he was asked he asked
12:30 if Dr Walla believed in God he said he
12:34 hoped everyone would find God before
12:36 they died he hoped he could convince the
12:38 families of Libby and Abby he said he
12:40 would I don't I don't think I meant I
12:43 didn't write out to what I don't think
12:45 to believe in God I think it was maybe
12:47 to forgive him or just to tap so he
12:49 wanted to confess he said he would go
12:52 back and undo his actions if he could he
12:55 said he was happy to see his family and
12:57 to have a small view of the out side
12:59 World which by the way we learned was a
12:01 very small window up high and partly
12:04 obscured that looked directly onto a
12:07 fence of some type he said he was he was
12:11 happier than he had ever been
12:13 considering he was in such a terrible
12:15 place that the whole concept of religion
12:18 and being religious was new to him he
12:20 asked for Bibles he asked to see the
12:23 chapl and he even slept with his Bible
12:26 and he had concern for walla's own faith
12:29 want to was she did was she a person of
13:32 Faith did she know so what Dr Wallace
13:35 says is listening to all of that she
13:38 believed he was potentially feigning
13:40 pretending just making up that he was
13:43 really
13:45 desperately um off that he really
13:48 believed these things or really had
13:51 these problems he was just figting he
13:53 was doing some crazy things around this
13:54 time he was drinking water out of the
13:56 toilet he said he was delirious from not
13:59 eating
13:60 she saidwell this Sudden Change you know
13:02 this sudden religion that could be just
13:04 sort of
13:05 manipulation that was back in March
13:08 March
13:09 21st she said when you looked at him his
13:12 appearance was within normal limits in
13:14 other words he looked pretty normal he
13:16 would sometimes intensely stare for a
13:19 long time his mental status was very
13:21 labile meaning his emotions went way up
13:24 and then they went way down and his
13:26 thought process was he would go off on
13:28 tangents and just just kind of have to
13:30 be brought back or maybe couldn't and
14:32 but as far as it was interesting because
14:35 the prosecution got into all this and
14:37 yeah he was you know acting really weird
14:39 but as far as committing the murders now
14:41 that portion the state says was concise
14:44 and in order so again this was really
14:48 vague though just the all it was was the
14:50 idea that he would undo his actions if
14:54 he could that he wanted to see Abby and
14:57 Libby's families and things like along
14:60 those lines so there wasn't anything
14:02 that would be something only a person
14:04 with knowledge of the crime would know
14:05 it's all still fits in the category of
14:08 things that if somebody went absolutely
14:10 crazy maybe that's what they would think
14:13 so on May 2nd 2023 he said I killed Abby
14:18 and Libby I will kill everybody I will
14:21 wipe out the whole world and he
14:24 mentioned starting World War II he asked
14:27 to know is it okay to K himself I'll use
14:30 abbreviations um that inmates say I
15:33 should so does that mean make it right
15:35 can I do that and he said he didn't want
15:38 to die he said he would climb onto the
15:41 sink um and and would un alive himself
15:45 all of this was crazy and all over the
15:47 place that was her point that he said he
15:50 C his entire family and his best friend
15:53 which is untrue because they're there at
15:55 trial I don't know about the best friend
15:57 but his wife anyway and that he was too
15:59 much of a coward to Kay
15:01 himself he said during this period of
15:05 time as signs of mental illness he was
15:09 consuming his own feces he was drinking
15:12 the toilet water and the reason for that
15:14 he explained was because he was afraid
15:16 he wouldn't have water to drink he was
15:17 told that doesn't make sense and he said
15:20 I know he was having difficulty staying
15:22 on topic and he said he will or he won't
15:26 un alive himself he kind of went back
15:28 and forth so that it was difficult I
16:30 guess to categorize him because he was
16:32 saying both that he was and um then he
16:37 said he randomly asked for a drug test
16:40 even though he's in prison and in
16:42 solitary confinement and so very
16:44 unlikely to have been anywhere near
16:46 drugs he may have been wondering if
16:48 someone was drugging him maybe that was
16:50 his issue or
16:53 question so he um was provided a tablet
16:56 when he came faster than normal and he
16:59 broke it so what they're trying to do is
16:01 explain why might he have been in this
16:03 situation where maybe he is like this
16:06 where he is he getting all the things
16:08 he's supposed to get and they're saying
16:10 yeah he initially got a tablet and then
16:13 he broke his own tablet so as to the
16:16 toilet water they explained that that he
16:20 they may possibly have cut off his water
16:23 because at one point he was stuffing I
16:26 believe it was his Bible into his toilet
16:29 and it overflowed and so sometimes when
17:32 that happens they cut off the water and
17:35 so maybe that's why he suddenly didn't
17:37 have water and maybe he was confused
17:39 about why that was happening but she
17:41 said it would never be taken away
17:43 punitively in other words to just
17:45 because they wanted him to not have
17:48 water uh so he had she called this a
17:51 brief psychotic disorder with
17:54 situational stret stressors and said he
17:56 was grossly disorganized
17:59 so on May 3rd of
17:01 2023 he said he would like to confess to
17:04 his crimes he said uh he saw his parents
17:08 that
17:09 morning that very morning that he was
17:12 supposed to eat with them that instead
17:15 and we're we're in so this is very very
17:18 specific am I totally at the right one
17:21 yep I'm at the total right one so okay
17:23 everybody listen up this is huge
17:25 absolutely huge all right so he said he
17:28 went to his parents that morning that is
18:31 exactly what he had told the police
18:33 before now he said he was supposed to
18:36 eat and with them but they were going to
18:39 go eat instead he opted to go get a
18:42 six-pack and he drank three beers and
18:45 then he had more later it wasn't exactly
18:47 clear when the later was was it before
18:49 the murders after the murders that he's
18:51 confessing to it's not really super
18:53 clear so he bundled up that he saw the
18:57 girls and he followed them to the bridge
18:01 he said that he did something with his
18:03 gun and that he thinks that's where the
18:06 bullet that they found fell out that's
18:08 not where the bullet was that was found
18:11 the cartridge that was found was between
18:13 the feet of the two girls at the scene
18:16 where their bodies were found it was not
18:18 where they were abducted which was ways
18:21 away at the end of the monan High Bridge
18:24 or at the yeah right as as it comes off
18:26 back onto land Overland they then went
18:29 down the hill across some land across
19:32 the creek up the hill and into a not
19:35 really clearing but sort of flatter
19:37 place that's the prosecution Theory so
19:40 he said um that he thought his gun he
19:44 must have dropped the bullet back up on
19:47 the bridge area where he was first
19:49 taking them he said he ordered them down
19:52 the hill that he planned to R um rhymes
19:58 with gra
19:59 that he thought they were older and here
19:02 is the most important part because it's
19:04 very unique that he saw a van and this
19:08 startled him remember how from opening
19:10 statements the defense has prosecution
19:13 has been talking about how that he was
19:15 interrupted like interrupted how do they
19:17 know where did that come from here's
19:19 where it came from right here he's
19:21 saying that there was a van and he
19:24 wanted to make sure that they were dead
19:27 that he covered them with branches so
19:29 I'll go back let me talk about that van
20:31 just a minute we're going to get more
20:32 information about that from another
20:34 witness but this witness said he but
20:37 Allan said he saw a van it startled him
20:41 and that was why he then interrupted did
20:45 not follow through with the sa that he
20:49 was going to do but instead he murdered
20:52 the girls and I guess that would tie in
20:54 with why he said it was to protect
20:55 himself maybe he thought he was about to
20:57 be discovered he said he covered the
20:59 girls with branches that um he did not
20:03 exit by the trail because he didn't want
20:06 to be seen and he managed to then just
20:09 continued life just continue living life
20:12 and as time passed it just kind of
20:15 seemed to go away like he did say though
20:19 that um he appeared she said the doctor
20:23 did that he just appeared relieved after
20:25 that like okay I told somebody it's all
20:27 done she said he uh she was asked did
21:30 you prompt him did you ask him and she
21:33 said no I didn't prompt him I didn't ask
21:34 him he just volunteered this and I wrote
21:37 down what he said he was concerned about
21:40 not getting food or water and he also
21:43 asked about a transfer to another
21:45 facility he explained that the reason he
21:48 had eaten his own feces was because he
21:51 was afraid of telling the
21:54 truth which boy that that could go deep
21:57 on bunches and bunches of levels there's
21:59 some fraudi and stuff for you feel free
21:01 to diagnose and try to figure that out
21:04 that he wanted his wife to know that he
21:06 loved her if he died and he repeated
21:10 that he did it and he didn't want to
21:12 miss Easter so you can see that this is
21:16 so mixed up all through here oh and by
21:19 the way during this part the maximum
21:21 most important point right we've been
21:24 waiting for this confession this is the
21:26 one and somebody had a cof fit in the
21:29 audience oh no so it took a group there
22:33 were five of us sitting around like well
22:35 I thought I heard this well I thought I
22:36 heard that and we kind of pieced it
22:38 together this is what I think we all
22:40 heard but I will tell you what it took a
22:42 lot of work to get to
22:43 that so they were the whole issue of
22:48 this confession is a mess it is an
22:51 absolute mess because it's mixed in with
22:55 this crazy behavior which is eating
22:59 feces the flooding stuffing his Bible
22:01 down the toilet flooding the place
22:03 getting the water turned off being
22:05 afraid he's not going to get food and
22:06 water all of this is nut and suddenly he
22:09 doesn't want to miss Easter all of this
22:11 although it is pretty close to Easter
22:12 time so you know there's just all of
22:14 this craziness going on and then you
22:18 have the confession plunked into that
22:20 and you have them talking about well
22:22 maybe he's making up mixing up stuff
22:24 he's intentionally looking crazy why why
22:28 is is he looking crazy and confessing to
23:31 me those don't go together either he
23:34 looks crazy okay I'm with you he could
23:37 be figting he could be making it up but
23:39 if he's so Savvy that he can do that
23:42 then he's not somebody who's going to be
23:44 confessing and if he's somebody who's
23:46 confessing he's not clear in his head
23:48 enough to be doing the other so I don't
23:51 really see how that works but in this
23:52 particular case we have a huge mess on
23:55 our hands the jury has a huge mess on
23:57 its hands because the the defense is
23:59 absolutely correct that he is in a
23:02 terrible mental state that he is not
23:04 right in his head and and the
23:07 prosecution has this bombshell
23:09 confession with a fact buried in it
23:11 about that van about that van the van
23:15 that interrupt him and that interrupted
23:17 him and they are going to talk about
23:19 that van some more we're going to have a
23:21 Final witness maybe even bigger than
23:24 this witness but would me anything
23:26 without this witness so it was a very
23:29 big
24:30 deal all right so uh but it I do think
24:34 the prosecution cannot successfully say
24:37 that the confession was well organized
24:39 but he was crazy it this is a mess this
24:42 is very hard to parse out there's not an
24:46 easy clear answer here I do think the
24:49 defense has a lot of points about the
24:51 way he was treated and about how he was
24:53 losing his mental capacity so on May 9th
24:57 2023 he Saidi just want to sign my
24:00 confession and she said 'well you might
24:02 want to talk about that with your
24:04 attorneys uh he mentioned harming um of
24:08 himself he talked about his last
24:11 meal he did say he wanted to help others
24:13 and he asked for a job so you can see
24:15 this is you know I won't be around
24:17 here's my last meal but I want to help
24:19 others so get me a job and I'll get to
24:21 work and then he went back to know he'd
24:24 be better off if he weren't around it
24:26 just crazy crazy then the next day he
25:30 was wanted to call his wife and he tried
25:33 to been he'd been unable to use that
25:36 tablet that he had they'll had back in
25:37 his cell and so they tried to call to
25:42 well they tried to call once and Dr
25:44 Walla left the room during his session
25:46 she got special permission for that she
25:48 left the room but it didn't connect
25:49 through so she came back in and they did
25:52 manage to get it to connect and he said
25:54 to her I want you to hear this so you
25:58 understand
25:59 he said he wanted to call her back his
25:01 wife and tell her that I did it so he
25:05 made another call and he asked if the
25:08 family still loved him and he said he
25:11 was going to be spending the rest of his
25:14 life in prison and he said the last time
25:16 he would see her would be in the
25:18 electric chair and his wife said stop
25:21 just stop and he said to Dr Walla she
25:25 doesn't believe me she's not believing
25:26 me and I and then he made this statement
25:30 I didn't do all I said I did but I did
26:32 Kill Abby and Libby mess mess mess mess
26:36 mess because he is confessing over and
26:38 over and you know it's all through the
26:41 record and they've got it in and it's
26:42 not just Dr Walla it's the witnesses
26:44 from yesterday so it's a lot but she
26:48 concluded he was organized coherent and
26:51 not in psychosis at this point then the
26:56 two days later was that the 10th or the
26:58 ninth that was the 10 so the next day he
26:01 said how he was feeling about the crimes
26:04 he said I really just want closure I
26:07 want to apologize to the families and
26:09 said he was going to be seeing his wife
26:12 he wasn't really sure what this closure
26:14 he wanted would look like but he was
26:18 that's what he wanted to do apologize to
26:19 the families but she said he was
26:21 oriented but then on the other hand he
26:23 was claiming she used the word claiming
26:26 not to know the date so oriented but she
26:29 again they think she that uh he's
27:32 pretending that she said that I think
27:34 he's
27:35 pretending there's a huge gap then and
27:38 we skip to August 3rd so we move from
27:41 May 11 to August 3rd and on August third
27:45 I he says I want to go to heaven I want
27:48 to talk to my wife I want to see the my
27:50 family I feel my heart is going to split
27:53 he said he fears something happened to
27:55 him and he wants something happening to
27:58 him that it could and that he wants to
27:59 say goodbye to his family he said he
27:02 wasn't sure what was rational that he
27:04 was confused he didn't know if he
27:09 was he was
27:12 not if he was not calling his wife or um
27:16 about his tablet he said I need to let
27:18 my wife go I'm a
27:21 burden again more more confusion the
27:25 important point of this is that um
27:29 these statements are happening and by
28:31 the way that part about the burden that
28:33 was yet a flashback to an earlier time
28:35 that she was discussing but everything
28:36 else about fearing something was
28:38 happening and not knowing about what was
28:40 whether he was rational and feeling
28:41 confused that was all on August 3D so
28:44 he's already receiving treatment he's
28:46 receiving medication and how doll and
28:47 he's been getting better and yet he's
28:50 still talking kind of out of his mind
28:53 that's not impossible I mean he is in
28:55 solitary confinement and was for more
28:57 than a year that is
28:59 absolutely you can imagine how difficult
28:02 that would be on anyone so the defense
28:04 has points there so then they flipped
28:08 back to November the year before when he
28:11 first got there and talked about how at
28:13 first he was refusing some meals and but
28:18 she felt like he was really gaming the
28:20 system they have a rule that if you miss
28:22 four meals it has to be reported so he
28:24 was quote very careful not to miss that
28:27 fourth meal he'd skipped three but then
28:29 have one and that he was actually kind
29:31 of pleased with the weight loss but he
29:32 had a dramatic massive weight loss that
29:34 was brought up by the defense when they
29:37 tried to get him moved from the
29:38 Westville Correctional Facility so then
29:41 um on the 10th of November he refused to
29:43 come out at times he said he was a
29:45 burden they encouraged him to come out
29:47 for visits and talked about being
29:50 careful not communicating with other
29:52 people he hadn't been assigned a public
29:54 defender and then they flip forward to
29:57 April again we'll get it all straighten
29:59 out on our timeline for now I'm going to
29:01 cover it like it came out at the trial
29:03 and this is really how it came out so
29:05 we're now at April 7th again he says
29:08 he's aware he's confessed she and the
29:11 doctor said I told him you confessed he
29:14 said I told him it was not in his best
29:16 interest and it might be against the
29:18 advice of his attorneys he really needed
29:20 to talk to them he said she felt like he
29:23 was quote being more blatant with his
29:27 symptoms and bizarre behavior in other
29:29 words she really felt like he was faking
30:32 that he was oriented he had claims of
30:34 memory loss but she felt like he was
30:38 feigning his
30:39 symptoms there was one day in April and
30:43 we had heard of that April 10th day
30:44 before where he was figing his symptoms
30:46 she felt like he was had his back
30:47 against the wall was Raising and
30:49 lowering his arms over and over I guess
30:51 like this and that he was not responding
30:53 to his name and there was paper all over
30:55 the floor this was critically important
30:57 because the papers screwn over the floor
30:00 were his legal papers the discovery he
30:03 had gotten and this is the Lynch pen to
30:05 the defense to all of this the defense
30:08 says those papers scattered all over the
30:11 floor that was the discovery and that's
30:13 how he knew those facts he knew those
30:16 facts he knew about cutting their
30:17 throats he knew about maybe even the van
30:20 because he had all that Discovery he
30:22 knew about the crime scene so he made up
30:25 in his psychosis he made up this whole
30:28 event around it that he dreamed slashed
31:31 made it up because he was incoherent
31:35 emotionally and mentally that's their
31:37 argument so these papers screwn all over
31:39 his cell these were the discovery the
31:42 legal papers his lawyers had sent him
31:44 which they sent him in early April
31:46 that's when he received them and that
31:48 they were so concerned the jail was
31:50 about other people learning what was in
31:52 the discovery that they switched at that
31:55 point from inmates being his one-on-one
31:57 check outside his store to the guards
31:01 then took over that work and they did
31:02 that from then on so and in fact his
31:06 first confession all of this kind of Dev
31:08 Tales his first confession they said was
31:10 on April 5th the previous day he had
31:14 confess well okay previous day so the
31:16 fourth he had been confessing to other
31:18 people and that was right around the
31:20 time that he received this discovery so
31:22 they believe all of those details he
31:24 knew he knew because he had crime scene
31:27 photographs he had crime scene Discovery
31:29 and he was able to fill in those gaps
32:33 the warden said he didn't want anybody
32:34 to see it and that's why he stopped
32:36 having inmates with him inmates were
32:39 apparently leaking information about
32:41 Richard Allen because he was kind of I
32:43 guess a celebrity inmate and so they
32:45 would tell people oh yeah hey I'm
32:47 watching Richard Allen you know he's
32:49 Bridge guy and people would have heard
32:51 that and so they thought it's really
32:52 good idea to get everybody out of there
32:55 who might possibly do this let's have
32:57 only prison guards from now on those are
32:59 the people we heard from yesterday who
32:01 testified to all the confessions they
32:03 heard mostly right around this beginning
32:05 of April time
32:07 frame so Dr Wallace said she too had
32:10 seen a shift in the behavior after they
32:12 received Discovery and she observed that
32:15 she saw clearly he was one way before
32:19 the discovery and one way after I will
32:21 say this that's not entirely impossible
32:24 to think that that would be something
32:25 that would happen I will say I was very
32:28 off by seeing the crime scene
32:29 photographs so I can certainly imagine
33:31 they would affect somebody so if he is
33:34 totally losing it then I can see where
33:37 it would also be very emotional for him
33:39 to see them whether he committed the
33:41 crime or not it's going to be very
33:43 impactful on his mental
33:45 health so on the 12th he was um banging
33:50 kicking the door self-pleasuring and
33:53 continued doing that even even after she
33:55 was present at the door he was looking
33:57 at the camera touching himself rolling
33:59 around not wearing clothes and so
33:02 wouldn't wear his kimono which is what
33:04 they how they describe the Garment that
33:07 you have to wear at all times if you are
33:10 on suicide watch dang use the word unal
33:13 living watch okay uh so and that waa the
33:19 doctor spent a whole hour trying to coax
33:21 him into come on put on your clothes
33:23 because we can do our session out here
33:26 if you do that they went to a cage they
33:28 wed him in shackles and chains and on a
34:32 leash to a cage 3x3 where he sat divided
34:36 by a divider from the doctor but at
34:39 least it was out you know at least it
34:41 was something and he also couldn't do
34:42 his R because he wasn't wearing clothing
34:45 and she said she was suspicious that he
34:47 was doing it in order to get something
34:50 but she didn't know
34:51 what and I'm going to talk about that in
34:54 just a minute on the 13th of April was
34:57 escalating she said he was U lying in
34:60 his own feces he was consuming his own
34:02 feces the psychiatrist tght to him to
34:05 offer medication try to get how about
34:07 you take this wouldn't do it not
34:09 interested so at that point they didn't
34:12 think he was yet eligible but later
34:15 decided yeah we're we're going to give
34:17 him involuntary medication so he was
34:20 given at that point how doll without
34:23 just because they felt like he needed it
34:26 he had an emotional break down uh due to
34:29 the Discovery materials guilt and loss
35:32 or secondary gain by which she meant
35:35 wanting something like wanting to get
35:37 transferred to a different slash better
35:40 prison like wanting to get more time out
35:44 so that he would not be in solitary
35:45 somehow that he believed he was going to
35:48 get something if he acted wacky as he
35:51 was doing and she did say he was getting
35:53 little to no sleep so on the 17th he was
35:56 in the middle of his cell with his eyes
35:58 closed and one hand raised close to
35:01 naked speaking or Ming words she said
35:04 maybe praying and they would call his
35:07 name and there was no response he was
35:09 acting bizarrely and then he would just
35:11 stop now she took that as a sign that
35:13 this is made up he's just pretending
35:15 he'll act wacky and then be no no I'm
35:19 fine so said she he was separated from
35:23 reality this is what he said and he
35:24 wanted to go back and make things right
35:28 she said he they asked her did he have
35:30 coherent thoughts at this time and she
36:32 said she hesitated this really long time
36:35 sometime I'm trying to write sometimes
36:36 you're like wait did did I miss did they
36:39 hit paw and but she finally said I would
36:42 say yes but she really was having
36:47 struggling to say yeah he had coherent
36:50 thoughts he did some vulgar and
36:52 disgusting thing and said well that's
36:54 not who I am he said the last time
36:58 remember I fell asleep and when he woke
36:01 up it was nuclear war that had been
36:03 activated by his death so I guess that
36:06 may be why he was afraid to sleep
36:08 because it would create nuclear war in
36:10 his mind he was singing marching crying
36:13 but when you asked him what you have
36:15 been doing he provided a list of
36:17 behaviors and those were in some part
36:20 correct which was kind of funny for the
36:22 state good enough that's a low bar right
36:25 there if people ask you what you're
36:26 doing and you can tell them something
36:29 that's correct since some part you're
37:31 correct good enough your your confession
37:34 works that is a very low bar I have to
37:37 say so on the 14th of April after he had
37:41 some meds he did have some improvement
37:43 although still very sleep deprived oh
37:45 look at this all this time well maybe
37:49 this will be clearer now we'll see uh he
37:51 was had grossly disorganized speech then
37:54 on the 21st uh he had bizarre behav
37:58 avors that were documented she believed
37:60 they were not genuine then on the 25th
37:03 of April he said I think I want a
37:05 transfer that is where the state draws a
37:08 lot of its conclusions the fact they say
37:11 that all this Behavior was just a lead
37:13 up to what he wanted that secondary gain
37:15 where he was going to get moved out of
37:17 this prison to a far better one or
37:19 closer one or something certainly they
37:21 felt like where he was was a bad
37:23 situation his lawyers felt like that I
37:25 think his wife felt like that his family
37:27 uh think everyone on his side believed
38:30 that then on the 28th he was lying on
38:33 his bed naked and asked if I wanted um a
38:36 psych session but said I need to shower
38:38 first and she thought that was a good
38:40 sign because he was aware he wasn't in
38:42 condition to come out either to do wreck
38:44 or to do the psych that meeting that
38:47 they had and he realized I need to do
38:49 something maybe this has gone too
38:51 far he said she he was asked well why
38:54 aren't you taking care of yourself why
38:56 aren't you doing sort of basic
38:58 clean up things and he said I'm selfish
38:01 that was his explanation for
38:03 that he went on about flushing his Bible
38:07 down the toilet not having food or water
38:10 she says that's false and that was the
38:12 part where she talked about how perhaps
38:14 he had flooded and sometimes when they
38:16 do that they cut the water off but she
38:18 said they're not cutting water off to
38:20 keep him from drinking on the other hand
38:22 you can see where in the mind of
38:24 somebody who is in solitary confinement
38:26 and can't get out cut off the water to
38:28 the room would be a terrifying thing
39:31 because now you're dependent on people
39:32 coming and showing up with water since
39:34 there's nothing there and that hasn't
39:36 isn't how it's been happening you
39:38 haven't needed that you've had the water
39:40 right there in your room so we moved
39:42 into cross now let me say a few thank
39:45 yous uh thank you Mr Bert Wayne I sure
39:48 appreciate
39:49 that Ben sellers I could not agree with
39:52 you more this case has been on my mind
39:55 all day and it's unbelievable that
39:57 something like this could happen to two
39:59 innocent girls in broad daylight and
39:01 I've been to the part now and it's just
39:03 beautiful and peaceful and it seems I
39:06 you just can't even imagine that this
39:09 would happen you really can't it's hard
39:11 to even picture that Chris J welcome is
39:14 a new
39:15 member and um Bernie Heaven law your
39:18 leag going global that's awesome thank
39:21 you Bernie I appreciate that and I do
39:24 too I think this truth transparency and
39:26 Justice matters a great great deal and
39:29 thank you Martha I appreciate that
40:31 Archer Girl is a new member and we will
40:33 stop right there okay so
40:37 cross-examination of um was by Rosie he
40:41 has handled all of the witnesses related
40:43 to the confessions all of the guards I
40:46 guess he would have done the inmates if
40:48 they had come the warden he did all of
40:51 those they seem to have kind of divided
40:53 It Up by category that's normally how
40:55 they would do it with a group handling
40:58 the case like this so he said um and at
40:02 this point things are definitely looking
40:04 bad that one confession it's hard we are
40:07 going to talk about that but he he came
40:11 in hot and heavy he said now you aren't
40:13 with the Department of Corrections
40:15 anymore are you she after your July 1
40:18 testimony you weren't allowed back into
40:20 the westfi facility isn't that true and
40:23 you're working at another facility
40:24 because they won't let you back in at
40:26 Westville she does however continue to
40:28 work for the same group which is not
40:30 Westville itself she worked for a group
41:32 that more or less licenses out as
41:34 independent contractors so kind of like
41:36 a temp agency but for longer term and so
41:40 she still works for that company but she
41:42 doesn't go back into the prism facility
41:44 anymore they said and here's why you are
41:48 following the deli murders case well
41:51 before you treated Allen Podcast
41:54 Facebook social media you were doing
41:56 this routinely and there was significant
41:58 activity in this case that did not
41:01 involve uh you were doing significant
41:03 activity in this case and that was
41:06 before you knew anything about this case
41:09 and continued after she began treating
41:12 Richard Allen you decided you were going
41:15 to access objection and everything came
41:18 to a stop we know from this summer in
41:22 the hearings that what was going to be
41:24 asked was you apparently after talking
41:28 to Richard Allen and he gave her some
42:30 details about the crime she went back
42:32 and researched Elvis Fields sorry Kagan
42:36 Klein K Elvis Fields figures later but
42:39 Kagan Klein she was researching Kagan
42:42 Klein who was at that time also an
42:44 inmate who was somebody who was
42:46 suspected by some people in the deli
42:50 murders case in instead of in addition
42:53 to whichever Richard Allen so she said
42:57 um the fact that she was going to access
42:00 this using her prison credentials and
42:04 she wouldn't otherwise have had access
42:06 to it and clearly she wasn't entitled to
42:11 search for something like that and she
42:13 wasn't entitled to look for that and she
42:16 was researching Richard Allen's case
42:19 while she's talking to him and she was
42:22 looking at podcasts and following and
42:24 even commenting on social media about
42:26 the case while she is specifically
42:29 treating Richard Allen huge problem and
43:32 they asked her that was in violation but
43:35 that was objected to let me go back to
43:37 that she she was going she would have
43:40 said if she had answered that what she
43:42 did was access the kangan Klein files
43:45 that may be the very point that got her
43:47 dismissed or where they said she could
43:49 not come back to
43:50 westfi but there was the objection from
43:53 the state and the reason for that I
43:54 would guess it was up at sidebar is
43:56 because the judge has said none of this
43:60 third evidence comes in Kagan Klein
43:03 being a possible other suspect that
43:05 would have open the door perhaps to
43:07 something about him coming into trial
43:10 about the fact that he had been a
43:11 suspect about the fact that he is
43:12 currently serving 43 years allegedly for
43:17 uh various um child sexual inappropriate
43:20 photographs and other things like that
43:22 I'm using my words carefully all right
43:25 so he did get out of her though it was
43:27 in violation of Department of
43:29 Corrections policy for you to do what
44:31 you did and she said probably to that he
44:35 said you followed several podcasts gave
44:37 shout outs and actually contributing and
44:41 re you actually went to contributed to
44:44 social media and then you recommended
44:45 some saying this one's really good this
44:47 particular
44:49 podcast so this was a violation and she
44:52 said it's a gray area which I have a
44:54 feeling it is not at all but some point
44:58 information on the inter on the internet
44:00 came out that this was Monica Walla who
44:03 actually was treating Richard Allen and
44:07 then at that point she shut her accounts
44:09 down but it all came out this summer at
44:12 the hearing and it was the day after the
44:14 hearing apparently she never went back
44:16 to Westville I heard somebody describe
44:18 what happened at the hearing today
44:21 having not been present but they said
44:22 that she started out as a semi defense
44:25 witness which is what in my mind I
44:27 thought she was was a defense witness to
44:29 say I really felt like he had some real
45:32 problems he's not just making this up he
45:34 really had issues and in but instead
45:38 after an hour or so of that it became
45:41 about her work on her looking at True
45:45 Crime her conflict of interest between
45:48 treating Richard Allen and researching
45:50 True Crime and following this case that
45:52 she had even gone depending on whether
45:55 you asked Dr Walla or Rose
45:58 she had maybe gone out of her way to see
45:00 the monan high bridge and the place
45:02 where this crime
45:04 occurred so um she was asked you never
45:07 told your employ you never disclosed to
45:09 your employer when you were treating
45:11 Richard Allen that you had an interest
45:13 in his case she disagreed with that and
45:17 so he pulled out her deposition and this
45:19 is what she said no I did not report
45:22 following this case to my uh employer
45:26 and she said well I met I didn't make a
45:29 formal report but I did tell my
46:31 superiors this is what she said today I
46:34 I had to recollect my recollection
46:36 refreshed more recently and now quote
46:38 I'm looking at it in a different way he
46:42 Rosie asked her if you had a chance to
46:44 do this all over again would you uh
46:46 would you stop following would you stop
46:49 doing that when you started treating
46:51 Richard Allen and she said
46:53 probably and she was communicating with
46:55 Allen while she was following
46:58 various social media accounts about his
46:00 case she acknowledged
46:03 that so on Flipping back to November
46:09 22nd that he had major depressive
46:11 disorder from the time he hit the door
46:14 of the Department of Corrections it
46:15 wasn't like this all developed a new
46:18 afterwards he said he had struggled with
46:19 that for many years and she believed he
46:23 already had that at the time he hit the
46:25 door of the prism she also said she felt
46:28 like he had dependent personality
47:30 syndrome which would involve difficulty
47:33 separating from his wife there were a
47:34 bunch of questions through here that
47:36 were objected to by the state that um I
47:39 think the defense was very felt were
47:41 unfair they were questions that were
47:44 leading which you are allowed to do on
47:46 cross and that the judge at for example
47:49 the next question was he was fragile and
47:52 there was an objection that was
47:54 sustained to that and it was hard to
47:56 understand what what about that it
47:58 seemed to be that the state was
47:59 objecting that the she needed to just
47:03 answer whether he was for use her own
47:05 words without the words being placed in
47:07 her mouth by Rosie but it is
47:09 cross-examination so there were again
47:11 today numerous objections that were all
47:15 almost all ruled on favorably for the
47:18 state and against the defense said
47:20 you've been to a cell you would agree
47:23 circumstances were generally unchanged
47:25 for 13 months this is huge she agreed
47:28 with that and that he was only out for
48:30 wreck and for his psych psychological
48:34 visits when he would see her and that
48:35 was only once a month from what she said
48:38 now she saw him more than that but I
48:40 understood her to say he only got to
48:41 come out for these visits once a month
48:45 and in the de now another issue the
48:48 lights were on in his cell at all times
48:51 24 hours a day another thing that's
48:53 disorienting and she in her deposition
48:57 she say it today well he could demm them
48:59 if he wanted to but in her deposition
48:01 she said he couldn't do that he could
48:03 not demm it and that a camera was on him
48:06 24 hours a day that he U never requested
48:11 um to she never requested to watch any
48:13 of the videos for the entire 13 months
48:16 that he was in his
48:18 room all
48:21 right so uh continuing on and back in
48:26 November major dep this is after lunch
48:28 major depressive order uh disorder was
49:31 on the intake document and he described
49:34 symptoms consistent with that so in
49:37 other words he actually was in a major
49:39 depressive disorder at the time which is
49:42 not hard to imagine given his you know
49:44 the fact that he had just been charged
49:46 with these crimes and arrested
49:48 regardless of whether he did it it's not
49:50 hard to imagine that he would be in
49:51 major depression at the time his being
49:55 at Westville was very unusual she
49:56 acknowledged that uh Rosie was doing
49:59 some really long speaking objections it
49:01 was funny and so did the prosecution at
49:03 one point he's he went into this La
49:06 speaking objection about well the the
49:08 reason that we're asking about why he
49:11 was in safekeeping is because he was
49:15 being treated differently and there was
49:16 more impact on him because in fact he
49:19 had not been in prison before he knew
49:20 nothing about prison it wasn't like he
49:23 had time to get acclimated instead he
49:25 was just thrown straight from
49:27 regular World bam you're in the most
49:30 restricted possible place anywhere in
50:33 the entire prison system and he didn't
50:36 get orientation training he went through
50:38 there are a lot of rules aren't there
50:39 there are a lot of rules around um
50:42 monetary system and how you do
50:44 commissary and he got nothing he just
50:46 got straight into your private cell
50:47 that's it and you're there for over a
50:50 year and in fact it was even more
50:53 restrictive during the periods when he
50:54 was on unal living watch because a lot
50:56 of stuff had to be taken out of the
50:58 cells so there was a uh I told you about
50:01 the 3X3 great um her demeanor was really
50:05 interesting on the stand because she
50:07 would smile a lot and sort of ruul at at
50:11 one point she lean back was like uh she
50:16 kind of like and it was there she would
50:19 just was very emotive on the stand she
50:21 had a lot of reaction to
50:24 things she T she said that there were
50:26 time when he was Shackled while he was
50:28 in therapy in a deposition today she was
51:31 saying no they always took it off but in
51:33 her deposition apparently she said that
51:36 even after he sat down in that 3 by3
51:38 room they left him Shackled with the
51:40 waist shackles and the belt on all
51:43 through his therapy so the video they
51:47 talked about the video of Richard Allen
51:49 being transported to the court in a full
51:52 jumpsuit with
51:53 shackles and she said she had never she
51:56 was asked the question have you ever
51:58 seen anyone transported to court like
51:02 that before I mean most people are
51:03 transported in their clo but there was
51:06 an objection that it wasn't relevant and
51:09 it was outside the scope of what had
51:11 been asked for in direct in other words
51:13 they didn't ask him about being
51:14 transferred to jail so the judge didn't
51:16 allow it but that was a really good
51:18 point if that's if he was Shackled and
51:21 all that would be different from how
51:22 they were treating other prisoners
51:24 that's what they wanted to get in he was
51:26 worried about having to get in a dog
51:28 cage for transport unal living
52:33 um let's see history ah one of the
52:37 things he he came in saying they asked
52:40 you do you have a history of physical or
52:43 saay in your past uh and he reported no
52:48 I don't have any of that later however
52:50 he claimed that that had actually
52:52 happened to him during his meltdown
52:54 period I'll call it
52:57 he also um when he first came in on the
52:59 7th was stressed out about stressed
52:02 about what would happen when he got out
52:04 of prison and how he would spend the
52:06 rest of his life which was very
52:08 optimistic if anything because the
52:11 concept of him getting out of prison is
52:13 a long stretch he is in prison for very
52:17 very serious crimes so how he would
52:20 spend the rest of his life probably the
52:23 not the chief worry whether he gets out
52:25 at all is really the chief worry and
52:28 then on the 10th of November Richard
53:31 Allen said that it was a all a
53:33 psychological game to wear him down that
53:36 fit really well with the interviews we
53:38 saw yesterday morning where the law
53:41 enforcement just lost it on him you know
53:43 screaming you did it I know you did it
53:45 and just cussing a lot a really lot they
53:49 played that and it was Richard Allen
53:52 made like one cuss word and there was a
53:54 lot and the Jerry Holman said I was just
53:57 responding but I'll tell you Jerry went
53:59 a long time and a lot more than Richard
53:00 Allen did so on the 21st he said he felt
53:04 as if he was being treated as if he
53:06 already had been decided to be guilty
53:08 and he would never admit to something he
53:11 he didn't do and say he said he didn't
53:13 do it on the 22nd he said his trip to
53:17 Deli for a court proceeding was strained
53:20 and scary and he was sitting in a box
53:23 and he said it was good to know that the
53:25 evidence didn't point to him so he
53:27 seemed at that point to be hopeful that
53:29 it wouldn't be too
54:32 serious on the 27th um she said he
54:35 presents as selfless and worried about
54:38 his wife and and her needs that that's a
54:42 theme throughout his stay he was
54:44 constantly asking about his wife talking
54:46 about whether or not she was taking care
54:47 of he wanted to talk to his wife and
54:49 their connection seen very deep his
54:52 connection to her and he she
54:54 acknowledged seemed very selfless about
54:56 about that seemed to really care and be
54:58 concerned about his wife on the 6th of
54:02 December he said he was an innocent man
54:04 and felt like he had already been
54:06 convicted actually I think there was an
54:08 objection sustained to that
54:10 question but um then on December 29th he
54:15 reported frustration because he couldn't
54:17 get a regular toothbrush he could not
54:19 visit with his wife he was sleeping on
54:21 the floor he had no TV or desk he had no
54:25 access to a tablet in his
54:27 so all of this is aimed at showing your
54:29 big claims prison that you're giving him
55:32 all this stuff are fake he's in there
55:34 sleeping on the floor he's got no
55:36 mattress you didn't give him all the
55:38 stuff you claim you did he was very much
55:40 in a state of
55:42 deprivation he she also was asked
55:44 they're tearing the prison down aren't
55:46 they and she said she kind of shook her
55:48 head and looked dubious I didn't hear
55:50 her say anything but then he said well
55:52 you live n's door and surely you can see
55:55 it being torn down so wasn't a clear
55:57 answer to that but I think by this time
55:59 it just already looked sort of like she
55:02 was hiding some things from the jury or
55:05 like I I think that the credibility
55:08 issue was certainly there however I
55:11 don't think that applies to the
55:13 confessions so we'll get into that we're
55:15 almost finished with the
55:17 confessions are we NOP not quite we have
55:19 a little bit further to go all right let
55:21 me say thanks to a few people because we
55:23 do have some more you don't want to
55:25 miss all right thank thank you Michael
55:27 appreciate that very much and uh
56:31 Courtney uh so right now I don't think
56:34 even if someone brought it up that the
56:36 judge would let it in that's my opinion
56:38 even if someone opened the door and
56:40 threw it out for one thing we've only
56:42 about got the defense Witnesses left so
56:45 they're not going to let the defense
56:46 open the door
56:48 itself all right um thank you my
56:52 father's Alibi that's a very generous
56:53 gift I certainly appreciate that and uh
56:58 ABC please accept loger no request to
56:01 join his podcast sure I would do that um
56:05 I don't think I have a request from
56:06 lawyer you know though but certainly I
56:09 could reach out to him or maybe he's
56:11 reached out to me I just haven't seen
56:13 that yet I am pretty far behind on
56:15 emails if you haven't gotten a response
56:16 to me you may not get a response in the
56:18 next little bit but I'll go look for
56:20 that thank you for letting me know that
56:22 ABC I appreciate that I do think this
56:24 case is so important I've tried very
56:26 hard and am trying very hard to be as
56:28 neutral as possible when I tell you
56:30 about the case but the issues around the
57:33 treatment of Richard Allen they matter
57:36 and it doesn't the whether he's guilty
57:39 or innocent of this crime is not the
57:42 same thing as whether or not we believe
57:44 he's receiving a fair trial both of
57:46 those things are important finding out
57:48 who did it convicting that person
57:50 including if it's Richard Allen and
57:52 giving Richard Allen a fair trial all of
57:54 that is important so I am very happy to
57:56 spread this further because I think this
57:58 case needs eyeballs and
57:00 attention uh modima Rose thank you very
57:03 much do I have I don't have modema rose
57:05 up all right I'm G to stop right there
57:07 and then take a um head back into more
57:11 on the confessions and the utter mental
57:14 breakdown of Richard Allen because it
57:16 was profound there is just no question
57:20 and we are back at the um yep they okay
57:25 we're back in April I tell you this
57:27 crazy when I put all this together I
57:29 think it'll be a lot clearer but for now
58:31 there's just no way to do that two hours
58:33 after the court ends you know just we I
58:36 got to come on and just tell you this as
58:38 fast as possible I want you to know as
58:40 the case goes on what the most important
58:42 facts are so um talked about throwing
58:45 belongings away uh he was um talking
58:48 about self harm and doing crazy things
58:52 that were of grave concern but again
58:54 they always felt like you know maybe
58:56 he's just faking it he's just trying to
58:59 get something on the 20th his cognitive
58:02 issues had worsened on the 11th of May
58:05 he was um preoccupied and Paranoid on
58:09 the 18th of May he received his second
58:12 involuntary injection of howd doll and
58:16 it's supposed to last for 30 days uh
58:20 however he received another one we'll
58:23 I'll put one more entry that's the 18th
58:26 first the second injection the 26th he
58:29 has two black eyes because he gave them
59:32 to himself he's harming himself then on
59:34 the 5th so this is not a full 30 days
59:37 not even close after May 18th but he
59:40 received another involuntary injection
59:43 of how doll due to self harm he was
59:45 headbanging this time now why were they
59:49 giving was that too much was he
59:50 overmedicated she said it was different
59:53 because you can receive an extra dose if
59:56 it's emergent if there's a real need to
59:59 do that really quickly so on the 26th of
59:02 July he had bulging eyes that's like
59:05 that's really creepy I didn't know drugs
59:07 could do that but she reported it and
59:10 then on the 16th he had a change in his
59:13 physical characteristics and the eyes
59:15 were no longer
59:17 bulging um the 8th of November um they
59:21 did point out um see we're back on the
59:23 8th of November um 55 he was 55 so that
59:26 was exactly what Baldwin told us
59:29 remember how he was on his fishing
59:30 license he was 5'4 and then he was 5'6
60:32 and Baldwin said 5'5 so he split the
60:35 difference and so did the prison the
60:37 references to Allen uh meeting with his
60:39 attorneys and receiving Discovery and
60:42 his behavior changed Rosie said to her
60:45 well you never actually saw this
60:47 discovery did you you don't really know
60:49 what he was looking at and she said no
60:52 she had never seen it she didn't know
60:53 what it was about and then they got into
60:56 the destruction of her notes the way she
60:58 was doing her notes when she would stand
60:60 at the door talking to Allan or when she
60:02 would sit across that that chain fence
60:05 chain link between the two of them while
60:07 he was in the 3X3 cell she would be
60:10 taking notes handwritten notes writing
60:13 down what he was saying apparently she
60:15 should be keeping those that would be
60:17 protocol according to the American
60:20 Psychological Association she should
60:22 keep those handwritten notes instead she
60:25 was taking the notes typing them in at
60:27 her computer and then destroying the
60:30 notes she shouldn't have been doing that
61:33 and so they went through the fact that
61:36 it would have been best practices and in
61:38 her deposition she had acknowledged that
61:40 it would have been best practices for
61:42 her to have kept those handwritten
61:45 notes uh he had significant um mental
61:49 illness plus functional impairment so he
61:52 did fit the Department of Corrections
61:53 requirement from the beginning so in
61:55 other words throughout this he should
61:57 have been treated as fitting in the sort
61:00 of volatile category of somebody who was
61:04 cognitively was um had a significant
61:08 mental illness he should be receiving
61:09 those treatments that would be
61:11 protective of him for that he was not
61:14 supposed to be more than 30 days in
61:16 solitary and that policy exists because
61:19 of the recognition that long-term
61:21 solitary confinement can be dep
61:23 detrimental to mental health is that not
61:26 obvious that is so clearly obvious he
61:29 had psychotic processes in March and
62:32 April and well that was what Rosie said
62:35 they started back in March right and she
62:37 said well I think it was April he said
62:39 well it's your deposition you said March
62:41 do you want to refresh a recollection
62:43 she's like no no I'm good so at her
62:46 deposition she said that went all the
62:48 way back till
62:49 March she still stood firm though on he
62:52 could be figing or faking although in
62:56 May of this year she said she was now
62:58 questioning whether it was really figing
62:00 and faking or whether this was all very
62:02 real in a true mental
62:06 breakdown uh um she okay let's get back
62:09 to that question of whether or not
62:11 because they did in this order whether
62:13 or not she had disclosed her True Crime
62:17 interest and her interest in this case
62:19 before she treated um Richard Allen and
62:23 she said she had disclosed her interest
62:26 in True Crime generally and even her
62:28 interest in this case that quote they
63:30 were aware that she was a fan of True
63:33 Crime and that she didn't handle Richard
63:35 Allen any differently but you can see
63:38 the issue immediately her to be
63:40 interested in his case and constantly
63:43 you know who did it and trying to treat
63:46 him for severe mental illness when he's
63:48 confessing to her there is no way to
63:50 reconcile all that there are so many
63:52 conflicts in there whether in the
63:55 comments that she going to make that
63:57 could be even just flavored a little bit
63:60 by what she's hearing from Richard Allen
63:02 or in terms of when she's talking to him
63:05 and she's heard things she even said she
63:07 talked to him specifically about things
63:09 people were saying about his case online
63:12 she told him you have supporters you
63:14 have people out there who don't think
63:15 you're guilty or who believe you're not
63:17 being treated fairly she said she did it
63:19 to encourage him to quote maintain hope
63:22 but at the same time that was cross line
63:26 where she was pulling that into his
63:30 mental health and into the way he was
64:31 being treated there in the
64:35 prison and he asked her but it was
64:37 directly related to this case and you
64:39 were doing it for personal reasons it
64:42 was directly related she was searching
64:43 this case not just True Crime this case
64:46 what happened in this case what happened
64:48 to Libby what happened to Abby what
64:50 about Kagan kleene could he be the guy
64:52 she's researching that for personal
64:55 reasons and and there's always she did
64:58 say well I mean there's always that
64:00 interest so and she just
64:05 Shrugged he pointed out Rosie did that
64:08 there is a way to objectively test
64:10 whether someone is figing faking
64:12 pretending that they're mentally ill
64:15 when they're really not but he was never
64:16 given any of that testing so all that's
64:19 left is everyone from the prison says
64:21 yeah we think he was faking and everyone
64:24 not in the prison says on defense side
64:27 says
64:29 no he did point out a good point she
65:31 destroyed her notes saying well I was
65:33 trying to maintain privacy for the
65:35 people I was I was treating and he said
65:39 what kind of privacy is there when
65:41 there's a video on the entire
65:45 time tons of Juror questions as you
65:48 might expect um I they were pretty much
65:51 about what you would expect but there
65:52 were some that were fairly technical but
65:55 most of them uh had to do with uh I I'll
65:58 read you a couple um was it expected or
65:01 normal for a brief psychotic episode to
65:03 re recur is that something that
65:05 regularly happens and she said yeah it
65:07 can happen again and again that would be
65:10 I guess the juror thinking okay well in
65:12 April he was little crazy and then in
65:14 may he confesses again could he be
65:16 having recurring psychosis is that a
65:19 thing and she said yep that's a thing so
65:21 those were the kinds of things they were
65:23 asking all right let's take a little
65:25 break and I want to talk for just a
65:26 minute about the confessions one of the
65:29 things I'd said yesterday was it was
66:31 really important to have that ju to
66:34 position where in the morning we had the
66:35 interviews and we saw one Richard Allen
66:38 and then in the afternoon we listened to
66:41 the guards and we saw a completely
66:45 different person and that was magnified
66:48 today through the testimony of Dr Walla
66:51 completely different he was at in his
66:55 interview he was
66:57 he felt very equal to people he was just
66:59 talking normally he seemed very
66:01 confident very calm and then we've got
66:05 this unhinged Behavior where he's eating
66:08 feces he's rolling around naked he's
66:11 just doing stuff that makes no sense
66:13 he's stuffing a Bible down his toilet
66:15 and all of these things don't make sense
66:17 that same person went from the interview
66:20 person I I didn't do it I'm not going to
66:23 confess you can't make me I'm just not
66:24 going to confess me to prison if you
66:26 have to but I'm not going to tell you I
66:28 killed two little girls cuz I didn't
67:30 that's one guy and then you got the guy
67:33 in prison after months of solitary
67:36 confinement rolling around on the floor
67:38 naked eating feces and saying I did it I
67:40 did it these are two really different
67:43 people can they be reconciled sure they
67:46 can be but they are really different
67:48 looking in the moment and we saw this
67:50 all in two days and I think this is the
67:52 most important two days the way the jury
67:54 feels about these two days will be how
67:57 it decides the case this is it this is
67:59 the moment in time when it will make the
67:01 decision I'm not saying other things
67:03 don't matter of course they do and there
67:05 had to be proof of a lot of things like
67:07 the bullet to bring the focus onto
67:09 Richard Allen in the first place but
67:12 what will happen here is going to be I
67:14 think heavily dependent on what exactly
67:17 they believe about whether the
67:20 confessions were real and particularly
67:22 that one the one about the van uh so we
67:25 had one other filler witness and then we
67:27 moved to the witness about the van and
68:30 that was so so so important so steveen
68:34 was next they brought him up again this
68:37 is I think maybe his fourth time maybe
68:39 third
68:40 time he this is something so smart I
68:43 think that the prosecution did one of
68:44 the jurors had a question after the
68:46 Hooser Harvest store video where they
68:48 had still shots showing what they
68:50 believe prosecution believes is Richard
68:52 Allen's car passing the Hooser Harvest
68:55 store the prosecution says yes that's
68:57 Richard Allen arriving at the scene
68:01 arriving at the scene where the girls
68:03 are about to be abducted and then
68:04 murdered and that it fits the time frame
68:06 where we believe he was there and at the
68:09 at the park at that ex that time so the
68:12 juror ask a question okay you you think
68:15 that's his black Ford Focus but did you
68:18 look to see whether there other 2016
68:22 black Ford focuses in the area and
68:25 apparently they went back and did that
68:27 and that was so smart for a host of
68:28 reasons because it we're being
69:31 responsive to you jurors we really want
69:33 you to know we want to answer your
69:36 questions I thought that was just so
69:38 wise of them to do so the and the answer
69:42 they eliminated black for f they focused
69:45 down on a few counties um double entries
69:48 they took out titani they limited down
69:50 to the exact model and there were eight
69:51 and then there was only one registered
69:54 in Carol County so the defense got in
69:57 some good questions uh like the fact
69:00 that the fact that it was in Carroll
69:03 County doesn't necessarily mean anything
69:05 because you can drive in from other
69:06 counties and lots of people do to go to
69:08 the trails specifically I met people
69:10 from all over when I was at the trails
69:12 this weekend from other counties
69:14 around and there you can't see the
69:17 license plate on the vehicle the model
69:20 so they don't really know exactly what
69:21 model it is there and there was a whole
69:25 host of focuses from 2011 to 2016 that
69:28 look pretty much exactly the same so
70:31 they didn't look at those either if they
70:33 had there would have been a lot more
70:35 that they would have put into their
70:38 pool um then there was a juror question
70:40 about this as well did you check as to
70:43 whether those rims those very all
70:45 important seethrough wheels and rims
70:48 were specific to his model his make or
70:52 were they specific were they did they
70:54 cross like a host of years from that
70:56 particular model so at that point we
70:59 moved to the Final witness and the big
70:02 the big finale of the day it was it was
70:05 quite
70:06 dramatic let me say thanks to a few more
70:09 people but you can hang on just one more
70:12 minute all right um you this is a
70:16 question in TR I'll save it I'm I'm
70:20 going to save that so so let's get into
70:22 the Final witness of the day Brad Weber
70:25 Brad Weber was at one point a potential
70:28 suspect in fact they got his Sig sour
70:30 the only other Sig sour they got other
71:32 than Richard Allen they didn't rule out
71:35 his gun as a match to that cartridge
71:37 they found between the feet of Libyan
71:39 Abbey but on the other hand they said
71:40 yeah we can't rule it out but maybe um
71:44 it's inconclusive but with Richard Allen
71:46 they said it's a match this is a clear
71:48 match so
71:49 in Brad Weber um they said the
71:54 prosecution says don't lean into the
71:56 microphone sit back and speak up why not
71:60 do both why is this something we have to
71:02 tell Witnesses don't do whatever you do
71:04 don't speak into the microphone because
71:06 the people here watching might hear you
71:08 we would never want that so I don't
71:11 understand why the prosecution and the
71:12 judge consistently tell Witnesses not to
71:14 speak into the microphone to lean back
71:17 the judge had the witness move it away
71:18 from her after she moved it toward her I
71:20 don't get it why why but uh he has his
71:25 residence at the end of a private drive
71:27 his Road the driveway it starts as a
72:31 road and then ultimately becomes his
72:32 driveway I filmed a video of trying to
72:35 go there but they have signs and they
72:37 have it blocked off so you can watch
72:38 that video it took about six minutes and
72:40 and what I'm doing is just taking you on
72:42 a series around here so you can kind of
72:43 see what it looks like and what's it
72:45 like to go to the bridge what can you
72:47 see and I really enjoy going and seeing
72:50 these places I thought you might as well
72:52 so sure to watch that I posted it just
72:54 this morning so um he said his the way
72:58 it works is his the monan High Bridge is
72:01 a very long Trestle it goes all the way
72:05 from across a 60 foot deep trench where
72:08 the creek is but it has to go back aways
72:11 on either side because it's not Cliffs
72:14 on either side of this stream it's got
72:16 to go back to hit flat land when it does
72:18 there's still a steep drop off down to a
72:21 road which is Brad Weber's private
72:24 driveway and so Brad Weber uh drove at
72:28 that time very importantly a van a Ford
73:33 econom van remember what Richard Allen
73:35 said in that all important confession he
73:38 said that a van interrupted him he was
73:41 going to are the girls I'm grape would
73:45 be a rhyme and he was going to do that
73:48 but he got interrupted and then he got
73:50 scared and thought I got to kill them
73:52 and then he did that was sort of the the
73:55 thinking that on so he was he went
73:59 through what his shift was that day he
73:02 worked from 6 to 2:30 he clocked in at
73:05 work they had the document right there
73:08 all the way back from 2017 he clocked in
73:10 at 5:41 a.m. for a 6: am shift he
73:14 clocked out at 20:2 p.m. and he said
73:18 it's about 20 to 25 minutes home now it
73:22 sounded like um there might have been
73:25 some good cross-examination on this but
73:27 they never really got into it they may
73:29 bring him back and get into it but there
74:31 was an objection that what they were
74:33 asking was outside the scope what the
74:36 defense asking was they started with now
74:39 you were out of town the week before the
74:42 13th I'll tell you what I think they
74:44 were going to ask said you didn't drive
74:46 straight home and you you left sure you
74:50 left work at 20:2 but you didn't drive
74:52 straight home at 2:30 you instead went
74:54 to work on your ATM machines I guess
74:57 suggesting he maintains or owns ATM
74:00 machines and that you told law
74:03 enforcement that's what you did you went
74:05 to maintain your machines he said no I
74:07 dropped off a
74:09 trailer and Baldwin said uh yeah you did
74:13 that earlier in the day and then he
74:17 baldr asked you went to work on your ATM
74:19 machines he he yelled no and then there
74:23 was an objection and there was never any
74:25 more answer to that I think what they
74:27 were suggesting is that he was doing
74:30 something on the way home that he told
75:31 law enforcement what he was doing was
75:33 checking his ATM machines if he didn't
75:36 if he got home right about 230 or 235
75:40 that would maybe fit pretty well with
75:42 the time frame that the state wants
75:43 because Libby's video of the man right
75:46 behind Abby that's at
75:48 213 so that would be about roughly maybe
75:52 20 minutes after that that they were
75:55 maybe interrupted by a van and then all
75:58 the rest occurs where they walk I guess
75:01 they haven't walked across the creek by
75:03 that point they walk across the creek go
75:05 up and then they end in the clearing and
75:06 he kills the girls but the there wasn't
75:10 really a final cross they may bring him
75:13 back I don't know but it never really
75:15 came out I think they wanted to say he
75:18 had something else he did he told law
75:19 enforcement he did so even though yeah
75:22 that'd be a van and that would be a
75:24 telling point if Richard Allen knew that
75:27 there was a van coming through right at
75:28 that time and said remember because it
76:31 interrupted him it even fit into his
76:33 explanation for what happened that day
76:36 but they're saying no that's really not
76:38 possible because of the fact that uh you
76:40 were out working somewhere else but they
76:42 never got that in it never really came
76:44 in he just denied it he said no I wasn't
76:46 working on ATM machines and it was never
76:49 there was never that piece of evidence
76:50 to contradict
76:52 it all told it was a very super at some
76:56 very important day for the prosecution I
76:59 think they have completely changed um
76:03 flipped the narrative I don't think that
76:07 it's out of the question but that van
76:10 that van remains right now A really
76:12 important issue if the defense can't
76:14 knock it out in their case I think
76:16 that's going to be a significant problem
76:18 for the jurors I think they're going to
76:21 look at that and say how do you know
76:23 about the van because it looks like
76:24 there was a van van right now it looks
76:26 like a van went through right at that
76:29 time and that would make sense how would
77:31 he have known that unless Richard Allen
77:33 was right there unless he was actually
77:35 attempting to um attack the girls just
77:38 as he said he was so I think it was
77:41 super important uh we are going to do
77:43 let me go through um super chats and
77:45 then I'm Al take a couple of questions
77:47 we're going to go short on questions
77:49 tonight I think all right where am I um
77:52 uh oh I don't know where I was um oh I
77:54 know I was with Irish
77:57 Alexandria how do you fancy his options
77:59 for appeal if he's found guilty ask
77:02 Irish Alexandria and uh well welcome
77:05 from Ireland glad to have you as far as
77:08 how I fancy his options for appeal that
77:11 really hard to answer I pulled up the
77:12 statutes today from Indiana to take a
77:14 look and I want to I think that deserves
77:17 like a whole discussion and so we and
77:20 we'll do that we'll do a whole
77:22 discussion but at this stage I would say
77:24 this um
77:25 I think that he has that excluding all
78:31 of that third party culprit evidence I
78:33 think that was seriously problematic and
78:37 should not have happened I think he
78:38 needs to be able to present that and he
78:40 can't receive a fair trial without that
78:44 however that is not the way appeals
78:46 necessarily work and so appeals work on
78:50 an issue an a standard called harmless
78:53 error the question is whether or not the
78:57 error that was made was harmless in
78:59 light of everything else taken into
78:01 account I believe that it's way better
78:05 chance of getting reversed on appeal
78:08 than other cases be way better but you
78:11 have to remember only about I think 25%
78:14 get reversed somewhere in there so it's
78:16 75% chance you're not going to get
78:18 reversed to start with and then in this
78:21 particular case if this confession holds
78:24 up I think that's a problem then there's
78:25 the question is well if he's admitted it
78:27 and you some secret fact then is that
79:31 going to be enough to be to make the
79:34 failure to let him put the other
79:35 evidence in harmless error I still feel
79:38 very strongly that he needs to have been
79:40 given the right to present this I think
79:42 it's absolutely inappropriate that all
79:45 of that was kept out I don't think he
79:47 can I don't think he can have a fair
79:49 trial without that so I say his chances
79:51 are decent but you never get huge
79:54 chances on appeal so that's just the
79:57 truth um and you know I clerk for an
79:00 appet judge so I know about kind of the
79:03 thinking and they very much defer to the
79:05 trial judge they very much believe that
79:08 the trial judges were there they saw the
79:10 witnesses they made the decisions and
79:12 you shouldn't you shouldn't second guess
79:15 them on every matter if it's critically
79:17 important you do but it's a rare thing
79:20 okay we got new members opalene and
79:23 Vicky and Shelly
79:26 uh hey Shelly and thank you for the
79:28 super sticker I appreciate that op says
80:31 it uh has me worried sit that a fair
80:33 trial is not taking place in Deli and
80:36 how important that coverage my coverage
80:38 has been thank you I really appreciate
80:39 that um and I I'm concerned about it too
80:42 that's honestly why I came I I just I
80:44 looked at that like what do you mean all
80:47 the evidence is out how can all the
80:48 evidence be out how can all the Geo
80:50 fencing evidence be out how is that
80:52 possible and I thought that just doesn't
80:54 seem fair to me I want to watch this
80:56 trial I want to see what's happening and
80:59 clearly I think the the rulings have
80:03 gone over and over again in favor of the
80:06 prosecution I I think the confession we
80:09 heard today was extremely significant
80:11 although I the impeachment of Monica
80:14 Walla was enormous just enormous it was
80:17 so well done really good
80:19 cross-examination I don't think it cuts
80:22 all of those confessions out because it
80:25 may impeach her but a lot of those
80:29 similar confessions came from many
81:31 different people all of those guards who
81:33 testified yesterday the warden people
81:35 person after person said yeah he said
81:37 about this same thing she is the only
81:39 one who has the van but that's so
81:42 specific and it just seems like an odd
81:44 thing for her to know could she herself
81:46 have known that because of her
81:48 involvement yeah yeah that's entirely
81:50 possible but this is a real this is very
81:53 very serious for the defense so that's
81:56 it's a significant thing to
81:59 overcome but I I too am very worried
81:02 about the fairness of the trial this
81:04 matters a lot and a lot of eyes are on
81:06 it and I think that's a good thing and
81:08 it's hard to have eyes on this it's not
81:11 broadcast it's difficult to get in it's
81:14 difficult because you can't have your
81:15 phone all day you stand in line not just
81:18 once but more than once during the day
81:20 and it's during that period of time it's
81:23 literally well I we usually we and now
81:26 we can have we can at least have food
81:29 not in the courtroom so you while
82:31 standing in in line on the first floor
82:34 to get back in after lunch you know you
82:36 eat something that's in your bag take
82:39 some water and you eat in the
82:40 lobby on the first floor and then you go
82:43 back up to the room so it but you can't
82:46 go out for lunch it's just a very
82:48 different kind of environment there are
82:50 no cell phones there's no electronics
82:52 all your notes are by hand this is very
82:55 very different this is not a normal
82:56 trial and so coverage is hard and I knew
82:59 that and I thought you know I could
82:01 cover this and I think somebody really
82:03 needs to and I think it's important that
82:06 we as a country as a nation we as a
82:10 community pay attention to this and make
82:12 sure that it is fair because there's a
82:14 lot going on here and it is a
82:17 concern and uh Cheryl can you remind us
82:21 about the FBI were they not interested
82:23 in helping or not invited or allowed to
82:25 help so they were helping they initially
82:28 were involved in all of this and they in
83:31 fact are the ones who filled out that
83:33 affidavit about Ron Logan so they were
83:36 heavily involved and they had opinions
83:38 and were moving forward and then we've
83:40 got hints from Rosie that there was a
83:42 turf war that erupted between the
83:45 Indiana State Police and the FBI and the
83:48 bottom line was the Indiana State Police
83:50 won and they were kicked out so there
83:52 you have it um Oakley thank you so much
83:56 for that Deborah I appreciate that as
83:60 well Mama Pinkston is saying we need a
83:03 total amount of pages for the notes
83:04 today oh there's bets out there oh there
83:07 are bets okay all right it was 36 all
83:11 right so tell me who was closest who
83:14 wins the pool that's what I want to know
83:17 36 Pages for
83:19 today all right Bethany a member for a
83:22 month what is the consensus with all the
83:24 other law tubers there are y'all
83:26 thinking along the same lines so I think
83:28 that you have to divide that down in a
83:30 couple ways first of all by who's
84:32 actually present because that's sort of
84:34 a self- selected group right that's
84:36 people who are here and they're
84:38 obviously concerned enough about the
84:39 case to be doing something about coming
84:42 it's you know I mean it's trouble to
84:43 come and hey maybe your technology won't
84:45 work I personally have experienced that
84:48 so I think you've got people who are
84:51 concerned about it to start with and
84:52 then I think people have a bent you know
84:54 we have um people who I I mean you look
84:58 at um some of the people who are here
84:00 are kind of pro prosecution some of them
84:02 are pro defense and so I think they kind
84:04 of go with whatever their lean is I
84:06 think that's just a natural thing to do
84:09 when when they when they report on stuff
84:12 that's how they see it and that's what
84:13 they think so I don't think that um
84:16 there's a consensus I do think everyone
84:19 here at least has at least some concern
84:22 about the fair trial issue Maybe not the
84:25 ones who were kind of more on the
84:27 prosecution side but I think the
84:29 majority of people here are very
85:30 concerned about that and feel like this
85:33 is worth eyeballs being on because it
85:35 matters to all of
85:38 us
85:40 um all right lawyer you know mentioned
85:43 me well that sounds fun i' would love to
85:45 be on his show I enjoy what he does very
85:48 much I said that his audience requested
85:51 me well that's y'all thank you I
85:53 appreciate that would love to see collab
85:55 me too that'd be a lot of fun all right
85:58 um ra defense made a new intent attempt
85:00 to bring in odinism yes there is a new
85:02 brief that's been filed I haven't read
85:04 it yet but I did uh they sent it to me
85:06 from the court so I I know that it's out
85:08 there and they're trying once again and
85:10 they should odinism and the third party
85:13 culprits that was very much part of what
85:16 the defense is and it should be
85:18 permitted in my opinion I don't
85:20 understand why it would not I think it
85:21 absolutely should be it's part and
85:23 parcel of his fair trial
85:26 um Sean I've heard that and um I I
86:30 personally didn't see that but I mean I
86:34 can see some similarities but I thought
86:36 there were some differences too but it
86:39 did definitely look posed to me I'll go
86:41 that far the exact way it the way it was
86:46 done I'm not as sure about that Sean
86:49 saying uh oh that was Sean this is
86:51 Christie thank you for the super sticker
86:53 and CA foron thank you so
86:57 much here's just a friend asking me do
86:59 you wonder if he intentionally feain
86:01 psychosis to delegitimize his own
86:04 confessions why else would he say he
86:06 unallied people who are still alive you
86:09 know um I I honestly don't think that I
86:13 don't think when and one of the reasons
86:15 I don't is I saw those interviews
86:17 they're not public so the world hasn't
86:20 seen them yet it probably will come out
86:22 in the next few months you'll be able to
86:24 watch them then but he was so adamant
86:27 that he didn't do it and he was just so
86:30 confident and normal and so different
87:32 from the person described by the guards
87:34 described by Monica Walla it just didn't
87:37 sound the same at all
87:38 so I don't think he just was
87:42 delegitimizing his confessions for one
87:44 thing that means he confessed and then
87:47 de and then tried to delegitimize it I
87:50 guess afterwards while still confessing
87:53 which seems kind of crazy and I'll say
87:57 this the prison officials can say all
87:59 they want that this is feigned and they
87:01 don't believe it but they gave him howal
87:04 against his will and I don't think a
87:06 doctor does that unless a doctor feels
87:08 strongly that the person needs it that
87:11 they are real and one of the Things She
87:13 Said Today Dr Monica Walla not the one
87:16 who prescribed the medication by the way
87:18 but she she's a psychologist not a
87:20 psychiatrist and she said that it didn't
87:23 matter by that point whether or not he
87:25 was figting it because he had decomposed
87:27 so much to me that that meant by the
88:31 time you get medicine they're in bad
88:33 shape that means specifically you think
88:36 there is a problem and enough of a
88:38 problem that it's not just fake it's not
88:40 just Fain I think those are different
88:42 you don't give how doll against
88:43 somebody's will to somebody you don't
88:45 think is even ill they're just
88:47 pretending I that would be very
88:49 inappropriate to give that and not only
88:52 to give it but to give extra doses extra
88:55 doses because of the way the person was
88:57 acting so that that would really be
88:59 wildly
88:00 inappropriate all right let's see pretty
88:03 pearls thank you I appreciate that very
88:06 much uh pretty pearls has helped us out
88:09 too thank you for that um christe
88:11 payer's daughter um glad you're liking
88:14 it um how is the bullet evidence uh La
88:18 Island hillbilly is asking well the the
88:21 way it came in or the way the evidence
88:24 worked out was they found this unspent
88:26 cartridge between the feet of Libby and
88:28 Abby they found it kind of by happen
89:31 stance because they were shining a light
89:33 around looking for blood pools when they
89:35 discovered sure enough there was that
89:37 cartridge buried in the ground between
89:38 the feet and they pulled that out we
89:41 don't have pictures of that we don't
89:42 have pictures of it in the lab but we
89:44 that that cartridge they say matches
89:47 exactly to Richard Allen's Gun so far
89:50 the only direction we have the evidence
89:52 is a prosecution we do know the defense
89:56 vehemently objects to the concept that
89:59 you can match a bullet to a gun they
89:02 think that's junk science they had an
89:04 expert who would have said that but the
89:06 judge kept that expert out saying that
89:08 expert is not truly able to testify in
89:12 that area this person's a metallurgist
89:15 this person is not somebody who knows
89:17 about whether or not you can match a gun
89:19 and a bullet and so she kept out that
89:22 testimony saying that if he were test
89:24 ifying on Metallurgy that might be a
89:26 different matter they also were going to
89:29 argue that bullet doesn't even match
90:31 even if even if you believe that you can
90:33 match a bullet to a gun this bullet
90:35 doesn't match that gun so they'll have
90:37 that expert in but they won't have the
90:38 expert who would have said it was junp
90:40 science I thought they got in some good
90:42 cross-examination on that though would
90:44 it it have been better for them to have
90:46 their own expert yes 100% but they do at
90:50 least have somebody to contradict that
90:52 in
90:53 general um Do's discussion could The
90:56 Gunshot have fallen through the bridge
90:58 and ended up right where Abby was so it
90:01 it may oh no no because those are on
90:05 totally different sides and one was a
90:07 lot further down than the other it's not
90:08 directly under the bridge that isn't
90:10 where the bodies were found so the
90:12 bodies were found I I don't know how far
90:14 it would be if you walked maybe quarter
90:16 mile or half a mile maybe I probably
90:19 just quarter mile you would have to walk
90:21 through the woods and you have to cross
90:22 the stream then you have to walk uphill
90:24 and then you have to get to the clearing
90:25 I haven't done it yet but that's sort of
90:28 the sequence you have to do you have to
90:30 actually cross the stream to get there
91:32 or come down from the cemetery but they
91:34 have that gated off so I don't think
91:37 that it could be now The Gunshot he
91:39 mentioned today in that confession he
91:42 mentioned doing something on the gun and
91:44 he thought that's when the bullet must
91:46 have gotten lost and that's how the
91:49 bullet that law enforcement found it's
91:52 not the bullet that law enforcement
91:53 found they found at the scene but as far
91:57 as it but he did think something that
91:59 happened at the bridge so maybe he
91:02 actually cocked the gun and the casing
91:04 came out and he didn't stop to look for
91:06 it something like
91:08 that thank you sassy me I appreciate
91:11 that very much and Meer there has been
91:14 much intentional chaos this has been a
91:17 whole week of intentional chaos and then
91:19 there's chaos not even intentional such
91:21 as live stream getting thrown in woman
91:24 is steel thank you I appreciate
91:26 that and jebie thank you and jebie by
92:30 the way has been a member for three
92:32 months he left no trace evidence
92:34 anywhere that's the truth for somebody
92:37 who wasn't planning on this that's what
92:39 it sounds like he just showed up I mean
92:41 according to these confessions he just
92:43 shows up at the park it's like hey there
92:48 are two girls think I'm going to do
92:50 something he kidnaps them abducts them
92:55 does all this murders them and he does
92:58 all of that leaving absolutely no trace
92:00 evidence and with no planning in advance
92:04 that's wow I don't know it seems it
92:06 seems nutty thank you Mama T I
92:09 appreciate that so
92:12 much so Andrea Xander him knowing
92:15 details only the murderer may know after
92:17 he got his Discovery is not much of a
92:19 bombshell and that is true except for
92:23 the van they have one person on their
92:26 team a paralal who is listed as someone
92:29 who will testify this and the paralal is
93:33 also cleared they got to name somebody
93:35 on each side who could stay in the
93:37 courtroom even though they were going to
93:38 testify I'm guessing maybe this is the
93:41 person who's going to come in and say
93:43 Here's the here's what we
93:45 showed and this this is what he had and
93:50 whether or not he had the van really
93:53 really important that's a detail if he
93:55 knew that the van came through at that
93:58 time maybe he could have made up that
93:60 whole confession in almost a fever dream
93:03 because he was sleep deprived and
93:06 clearly losing all mental stability you
93:10 can see all that so if he did if they
93:13 can prove that he knew about the bullet
93:17 that's their only shot at getting this
93:19 eliminated in my opinion and and they
93:21 may be able to they may be able to show
93:23 that was in the packet of materials he
93:25 received they definitely can show well I
93:28 would imagine that that he had
93:30 photographs of the scene that he knew
94:31 they were abducted at the bridge and
94:33 that he knew a lot of details every
94:35 other detail I think could be explained
94:38 the only one I don't know about is the
94:40 van and that may be there I just don't
94:43 know all right um so answer to this
94:47 question that opalene has has any video
94:49 been presented in court for his prison
94:50 interviews I'm gonna take my glasses off
94:52 so I can read this um confessions I'm
94:55 not sure how strong the evidence is on
94:56 that so it's um we haven't seen that yet
94:60 we haven't seen any video of it so far
94:03 we've heard from the guards we've heard
94:04 from Dr Monica Walla and we've heard
94:06 from the warden talking about it and the
94:09 jury has seen some written notations
94:11 that they made at the time I believe
94:15 that the defense team is going to show
94:17 us actual video from his cell so we're
94:21 going to see what it looked like we may
94:22 see him confess we may be a able to
94:24 judge for ourselves whether or not he's
94:27 really all there or whether he is
94:29 completely mentally not there and that's
95:32 gonna be really
95:33 important all right gret
95:36 anara uh thank you yeah it's a
95:39 fascinating case and a really important
95:43 one the chat was on fire tonight Dolly
95:46 tells me Marlon and Mama pinks worked
95:48 overtime thank you thank you to Marlon
95:50 and Mama pinks I tell you what they are
95:53 they are their weight and gold to both
95:55 of
95:57 them uh and Katherine is who's been a
95:00 member for five months I'm glad for that
95:02 is outraged and grateful that I'm in
95:04 court me too Tom Webster good friend
95:08 from The Trial hey Tom Tom has a channel
95:10 as well and has been covering this for a
95:12 long time notes a lot about the case
95:15 also a great notet Taker and just a nice
95:17 person so thank you very much for your
95:19 Super Chat and a shout out to Tom and
95:21 his
95:22 channel uh Cheryl lock oh thank you I'm
95:24 glad you enjoy watching um the report on
95:28 the case all right well
96:32 um I don't know how much I'll have to
96:34 cut out in the middle I have to wait
96:35 until it
96:36 processes and I think did I even ask for
96:38 questions I don't think I did so that's
96:40 good oh well people have put them in
96:42 anyway okay maybe I did ask uh GSP 804
96:46 had they ruled out Richard Allen's wife
96:47 they said there was female DNA at the
96:49 crime scene I don't know she's listed on
96:52 the witness list for both sides Ides
96:54 they apparently don't plan to call her
96:56 for the state they might call her in
96:58 connection to the confessions because
96:01 some of them were made to her on the
96:02 phone we're going to hear those tomorrow
96:04 I think the witness will talk about what
96:06 was actually happening he'll talk about
96:10 I think play probably the audio tape of
96:12 the conversations where Richard Allen
96:14 confessed to his wife and to his mother
96:16 so we we will be hearing more about that
96:18 soon and as far as um whether or not
96:22 they tested his wife I don't the answer
96:24 to that I don't really think that anyone
96:27 is suggesting that she had any
96:29 involvement in this at all I don't think
97:31 there's any suggestion of that no one no
97:33 one thinks that I don't believe I don't
97:35 think law enforcement is even remotely
97:37 considered it um Anna as a therapist a
97:40 year over a year in solitary trust me
97:43 best trained Ops break yeah I Anna it
97:46 seems crazy um that they would that
97:49 somebody would be in prison and in in
97:54 solitary confinement for that long and
97:57 when you think about it I mean given how
97:59 many times they were taking him out of
97:00 his cell and sometimes he didn't even
97:02 get to go you're looking at three hours
97:05 a week for a year at the most and that's
97:09 wow I mean that's just crazy that same
97:12 cell no interaction with anybody
97:14 sometimes not having a tablet or
97:16 anything that would definitely break
97:17 anybody one of the things that makes
97:19 this case important is not just the
97:23 verdict and whether or not the jury
97:25 convicts Richard Allen but whether or
97:27 not the state of Indiana and the
97:29 particularly the Department of
98:31 Corrections Tak seriously what the
98:33 allegations are here because they are
98:35 horrendous that is totally unacceptable
98:37 someone in solitary confinement for more
98:39 than a year no can never happen should
98:41 never happen that's absolutely asking
98:44 for breaking somebody just like you say
98:46 Anna and so that is one of the things
98:49 that I was kind of um heartened to see
98:52 was that yesterday in the back of the
98:54 courtroom were some lawyers from the
98:55 Attorney General's office and from some
98:57 other organizations Department of
98:58 Corrections I think had someone there
98:00 and so my Hope was they were watching
98:03 the testimony by the guards and the
98:05 warden talking about former Warden
98:07 talking about the things that had
98:09 happened in the confessions but this is
98:12 and I didn't see them there today so I
98:14 don't know if they were still there or
98:16 if they were you know were not involved
98:19 this was Dr Monica Walla who also used
98:21 to work with the prison system so I
98:24 think they really ought to be sitting up
98:26 paying attention noticing this it's
98:28 super
98:30 important U Penelope can anyone his
99:32 sister or other victims testify yes they
99:35 certainly can testify as to whether they
99:36 were sa um Penelope and they may I don't
99:40 know if they the defense wants to give
99:42 that any more Credence they probably do
99:44 want to point out several things that
99:46 were false but I don't know which ones
99:49 but that might be some of
99:52 them so question so you think Richard
99:54 Allen was walking the bridge to look at
99:56 fish and check his STS and wearing
99:58 clothing similar to that of bridge guy
99:00 well his clothing I always thought the
99:02 clothing was a little generic the jeans
99:04 in a you know blue jacket or black
99:06 jacket and but as far as walking the
99:10 bridge to look at fish is what he said
99:11 check his stocks I don't know I don't
99:13 know um he certainly I I went out there
99:17 one of the questions I had was and
99:19 you'll see this in the video that I'm
99:21 going to drop for tomorrow morning just
99:23 the walk with me video because I went to
99:24 the bridge and I want to show you well I
99:26 had this question he's 60 feet up I mean
99:29 what fish are you going to see right
100:31 that's what I was thinking I thought the
100:32 prosecution had kind of hinted at that
100:34 but actually I discovered when you walk
100:36 out on the bridge sure enough you can
100:38 see it's completely clear and you can
100:40 see right down in there so okay well at
100:42 least it's not something you just
100:44 dismiss as nonsense but as far as um you
100:48 know I I guess basically you're asking
100:50 me do I believe him or not and I try not
100:52 to say that until we finish so I won't
100:55 answer my opinion on it but um that is
100:58 what he argued he was doing when he Ted
100:00 to police in the
100:02 interviews thank you Helen I appreciate
100:04 that so much I'm grateful it's been uh
100:07 quite a volatile evening so I'm very
100:09 appreciative that y'all are here and
100:11 still being kind thank you thank you all
100:13 of you um T are wan to know could the
100:16 bullet have been
100:17 planted um that was a suggestion when I
100:23 think the and and there were rumors that
100:26 oh this bullet had been planted but I
100:28 think the thought behind that was it was
101:30 discovered days later people went back
101:32 to the scene and were like oh look a
101:35 bullet no one saw before but that is not
101:37 the case because there were pictures
101:39 that night of the bullet between the
101:41 bodies there were pictures of the bodies
101:43 with the bullet and you could see it all
101:45 there and so there was no planting of it
101:48 days later it would have had to been
101:50 somebody planting it right away unless
101:52 they switched the bullets it to be some
101:54 pretty major conspiracy for that to
101:57 happen all right let's see um TOA vid
101:01 says any more come out about the
101:04 emails not sure which emails you mean
101:07 too vid so maybe you can put a little
101:09 bit more in there I'm not sure how to
101:10 answer that one I'm looking for question
101:13 mark at the beginning in case you wonder
101:15 that's the only way I can spot everybody
101:17 I'll just do a question or two more
101:20 um uh Michelle talking about somebody
101:23 who was suspect but the computer showed
101:25 they were on the computer during the
101:26 crime and um I think you're talking
101:29 about Kagan Klein and there was from law
102:32 enforcement they believed that they had
102:35 activity on the computers by Kagan Klein
102:38 and his father at their home and they
102:40 didn't think they were connected the
102:42 times I saw didn't look like they were
102:44 an exact match but I don't have the
102:46 evidence from the from that particular
102:48 case so I can't truly speak to
102:51 that all right um that's saying that
102:54 computers can be
102:56 manipulated not by me that's for sure
102:00 but yes by people who know what they are
102:02 doing they probably can be manipulated
102:04 okay Angel how frustrating that you
102:06 can't watch everyone because you're
102:08 expecting to know every word isn't that
102:11 the truth because there's not even the
102:12 audio recording it is really frustrating
102:14 not to be able to do this and no you
102:17 absolutely I I can't watch read lits and
102:20 write and I mean it's too much and
102:22 sometimes you're like gosh I'd really
102:24 like to see what the jury is how they're
102:26 reacting to this but I'm still trying to
102:27 get down the words that everybody said
102:29 so you just have to pick your things
103:32 some people focus more on the jury and
103:34 they take fewer notes for me the words
103:36 that people say that's so important and
103:38 I think it's a lawyer thing we really
103:39 like words and what people testify to
103:42 it's I guess our
103:43 trade uh Leslie is it possible for other
103:46 J judges to be made aware of these
103:48 judicial Shenanigans and somehow step in
103:50 or something um so there have been
103:53 attempts to go to the Supreme Court to
103:55 get various things changed by the media
103:59 by repeatedly the defense so um I don't
103:04 think anything's going to change I don't
103:05 think anything is going to happen in
103:07 this case what I do hope will happen is
103:10 people will look at this and say let's
103:12 come up with some rules that we believe
103:15 in that we think we can enforce that we
103:17 believe people can that we believe
103:19 people can use on a regular basis they
103:23 are already have some rules and things
103:25 around broadcasting in courtrooms but it
103:29 obviously needs to be firmed up there's
104:30 a lot more than just broadcasting that
104:33 goes into this there's getting people in
104:36 there's providing overflow room there's
104:37 providing for media there's who
104:39 qualifies this media there's so many
104:42 things that go into making this work as
104:44 a trial and making it easy and it's not
104:47 right now it's really really not so um I
104:50 think I have one more person over here
104:53 just a friend asking about Ari's voice
104:55 sounding like Bridge guy so we had a I
104:57 talked to many people about what they
104:59 thought some people 100% that is
104:02 absolutely Bridge guy me no I don't
104:05 think so but I can't really tell I felt
104:08 like the voice we heard from bridge guy
104:10 was so altered and and mechanized
104:13 because they were trying to enhance it I
104:16 didn't feel like it was all that
104:17 recognizable so that's the reason I
104:19 think that I can't connect them I just
104:22 honestly would have to say I don't no I
104:24 just can't say yes they canette but
104:26 there were people who felt really
104:26 strongly I think well I won't say that
104:29 because I don't I'm not sure what he
104:30 thought I'll let him speak for himself
105:32 okay so um all right well that is we
105:35 will call it uh an evening thank you all
105:37 for watching we will work on the
105:39 technology for tomorrow and I will look
105:40 forward to seeing everybody at seven
105:42 well as close to 7 PM as we can get oh
105:45 oh we have B news totally forgot this um
105:49 Inside Edition um is going to be here
105:52 filming at as I talked to you on Friday
105:55 so they're going to be right here in the
105:57 hotel room with me they are going to be
105:59 looking at your questions and uh I'll be
105:02 answering your question so I I thought
105:04 we could go ahead and come up with a
105:05 plan and here was what I thought our
105:07 plan should be you should all be
105:09 thinking of really easy questions that
105:11 you would like to ask me hey Lee how do
105:14 you spell Deli or you know name any two
105:17 witnesses you thought were important in
105:19 the case so be working on your super
105:22 easy questions and those can be the ones
105:24 that I answer and they're going to use
105:25 this for an inside edition show that
105:27 they're going to be putting on Hulu so
106:30 anyway that's really exciting so we're
106:32 going to be on Inside Edition together
106:34 so I will see y'all tomorrow night at uh
106:37 roughly seven as close to that as I can
106:39 get see you then