00:17 you where you
01:32 m m
01:18 all right welcome to defense Diaries I'm
01:20 your host Bob maada and this is the
01:23 people versus Richard Allen day five so
01:27 another day uh a trial it was another
02:31 exciting day action-packed only three
02:34 Witnesses but a lot of information came
02:37 out kind of the uh 10,000 foot view from
02:42 high up in the sky essentially we had
02:44 Sarah carbaugh iwitness uh she is
02:48 another one of the eyewitnesses that
02:51 wasn't on the trail that day but is an
02:53 eyewitness who believes that she saw
02:56 Bridge guy walking on 300 North which
02:00 again is that uh county road that runs
02:04 north of the trail system and uh she was
02:08 very interesting to say the least
02:11 her her testimony was uh was unlike any
02:16 that I've ever seen just in terms of her
02:19 demeanor uh she would have been
02:20 appointment television she would have
02:23 gone
02:24 viral on the socials because it was just
02:28 it was so bizarre her her personality
03:31 was really really hard for me to try to
03:36 pinpoint what was so strange to me about
03:39 her but it just was um secondly we then
03:43 had uh the forensic pathologist come on
03:48 and he of course went through the
03:50 autopsies it was uh obviously
03:53 devastating you know they had
03:55 the you know and it's clinical autopsies
03:58 are clinical it's it's a different vibe
03:02 than the vibe you get when you're
03:04 looking at the crime scene photos where
03:06 you
03:07 have somebody that
03:10 is uh or two people that
03:13 are in the surroundings where the crime
03:16 happened you know it's like you you feel
03:18 a different way whereas you're looking
03:20 at the autopsy photographs you still
03:23 feel the
03:25 heartache but it it's easier to look
03:28 look at because you're trying to
03:30 understand and the science behind it
04:31 while the forensic pathologist is
04:34 testifying if that if that makes sense
04:37 you know I'm not I'm not good with blood
04:39 like it's always been a thing with me
04:41 it's like since childhood I'm like I get
04:43 queasy so you know when I've had cases
04:46 where I have you know had gruesome crime
04:49 scenes uh that were a part of the case
04:51 it's always been challenging for me but
04:53 you know I have to suck it up and and do
04:55 it uh and finally we had Chris Cecil who
04:58 was
04:00 uh who is the uh digital forensic guy uh
04:05 that took over in 2019 he is the
04:07 gentleman who I saw testify earlier uh
04:11 this year in Late July early August
04:13 during the three days of hearings uh he
04:16 didn't get any better he's still uh in
04:19 my estimation not a very good witness in
04:21 terms of the State uh and that's just
04:25 objectively like he's just not a very
04:27 learned man in in the ways of
05:31 uh digital forensics that's just my
05:33 honest evaluation of him um he is not
05:36 somebody I would quantify as a powerful
05:39 witness for the state and uh kind of the
05:45 like and I'm just going to tell you guys
05:46 I gotta do I'm doing Vinnie tonight 9:30
05:48 I want I know I'm going up against
05:51 Andrea and I'm probably going up against
05:52 Lee I don't care uh I like I can't go
05:56 until midnight again tonight this is
05:58 going to force me to keep this thing
05:59 short Ali's got something else to do
05:02 tonight so she's not going to be with us
05:04 uh it's just going to be me I'm going to
05:06 power through I'm going to try to give
05:07 you guys all the Deets that I
05:09 can I'm G to try to answer some
05:11 questions if I can get through the
05:13 testimony real quickly and uh then I'm
05:16 going to bounce and then I'm on Vinnie
05:17 at 9:30 you guys come check that out I
05:20 don't know who I'm on with um that's
05:23 always interesting it's always like a
05:25 nice surprise to find out who I am uh
05:27 who on and we always have replay crew so
05:30 you know I'm sure that we're going to
06:31 have folks that are over with Andrea
06:32 that or Andrea and Lee that'll come and
06:34 watch on De on the replay which is good
06:37 I'm cool with it I'm good with it
06:39 tomorrow I'm GNA be the first on though
06:41 I'm gonna tell you that I'm gonna get my
06:42 ass here and on the stream before
06:44 anybody else uh because I want to uh I'm
06:49 tired of doing it late I want to try to
06:51 get on early uh I don't know if tomorrow
06:54 will be the day where we're going to
06:55 kind of split it up between Ally and I
06:56 the first day we're going to do that
06:58 where I give her my notes she comes live
06:00 early gets all the information out
06:03 before anybody and then I'll come back
06:06 and I'll clean it up at night with
06:08 whatever happened in the afternoon but I
06:10 don't know if that'll be tomorrow but
06:11 I'm G to be on early that's for certain
06:15 so uh I'm going to jump right into
06:17 it uh let's get into Sarah carbaugh she
06:21 was uh just in terms of kind of like the
06:24 the courtroom demeanor again uh Rick
06:28 Allen was very talkative as I said he is
07:31 he is very much engaged in this trial
07:34 like there is none of the uh
07:38 tranquilizer guy staring up at the
07:40 ceiling guy like he's talking with his
07:43 lawyers he looks like he's all there
07:46 mentally to me um I'm not seeing any
07:49 like and I'm not watching anybody else's
07:51 content so you all have to tell me
07:52 because I know you guys are digging in
07:53 all over the place which I encourage get
07:56 the views from all of us we all have
07:57 different perspectives on things uh
07:00 and that includes even defense attorneys
07:02 so Andrea and Lee look at things
07:04 differently than I do and um and vice
07:07 versa so I think it's it's healthy and
07:09 good for you guys to to get all the
07:10 Deets from everybody uh because we're
07:13 all going to make different observations
07:15 you know the reality is is that all of
07:17 us are sitting in there just trying to
07:18 write every single word down so like
07:21 like we're trying to act as court
07:23 reporters we're really trying to kind of
07:25 make transcripts so that we can just
07:27 relay what we're hearing leaving kind of
07:30 a lot of analysis out um just in general
08:34 but I think that ultimately at the end
08:36 of the day that uh you know you're
08:40 you're gonna get a pretty good idea of
08:42 what's going on in that courtroom uh
08:43 mcleland had on a nice uh I think it was
08:47 gray gray suit uh black shirt pink tie I
08:51 actually I like the look a lot thought
08:53 he looks sharp uh Rosie always looks
08:56 good he's always got uh I think he had a
08:58 navy blue suit on uh Andy uh Andy I
08:02 think it was in the Brown family uh he
08:04 looked sharp as well I started to think
08:06 Andy got a haircut I was I was gonna ask
08:09 him but uh I think he has other things
08:11 to worry about than asking my uh
08:13 answering my grooming questions but uh
08:15 and you guys let me know and I know I I
08:19 I was doing the the spaces the the audio
08:22 tweets today I know that the second one
08:24 got cut off uh it I've got three bars
08:27 outside of the courthouse it's it it is
08:29 what it is with that so I am going to um
09:34 really do my best with those because I
09:36 like those I like being able to tell you
09:38 guys because I'm able to impart more
09:40 information in short spaces than I am
09:43 trying to run out there grab my phone
09:45 tweet real quick turn my phone off throw
09:48 it in the box and run back upstairs it's
09:50 like I have a very short period of time
09:52 to do all that stuff in so uh I figured
09:54 that those spaces will be kind of a cool
09:56 way to give you guys uh that are
09:59 following me on Twitter Twitter over at
09:00 defense Diaries which you should be um
09:04 uh to give you guys kind of early
09:05 updates on what's popping all right so
09:09 let's dig into it uh my finger I cannot
09:11 feel my index like I officially cannot
09:14 feel my index finger at all from writing
09:17 after and we're only this is the fifth
09:19 day of trial and I skipped one Ally was
09:22 there Saturday so I think the whining
09:25 will probably intensify uh you know like
09:29 I'm not having to whine about having to
10:31 go through the nightmare of standing in
10:33 line so I I'm cognizant of that I am
10:36 cognizant of that um but I kind of got
10:39 that because I earned it I've been
10:41 covering the spoots on the
10:42 ground uh for since the arrest so like I
10:46 don't feel bad about it I feel like I I
10:48 earn that right uh to be in there
10:50 through our coverage and what we do and
10:52 what we say so um it is what it is all
10:56 right so let's go day five uh
10:00 initially when they come in they publish
10:02 uh mullen's so the first thing that
10:05 happens is mcleland says we want to
10:07 publish which publish means that they're
10:09 handing exhibits that they've printed
10:11 out for the jury to the jury okay so the
10:14 Mullins had a few exhibits uh 213 2 uh
10:18 14 and
10:19 219 that he had uh talked about the
10:23 vehicles that were caught from the who
10:25 your Harvest store of the vehicles so
10:28 that's where we were talking about
11:30 uh Betsy Blair's vehicle uh one shot of
11:34 Kelsey's vehicle and then a few shots of
11:37 Betsy Blair's vehicle uh and then
11:40 also they put in from uh officer Pedro I
11:45 think he's Deputy pige I don't know what
11:47 rank he is at this point he's three days
11:50 ago I can he's a distant memory uh but
11:52 1819 and 20 were all entered into
11:55 evidence and published to the jury today
11:58 and those were the diagrams of the crime
11:00 scene so uh they call their first
11:03 witness who is Sarah carbaugh if you are
11:05 familiar with the probable cause
11:07 affidavit in this case that name should
11:09 ring a bell she is the muddy and bloody
11:12 woman she is the person who claimed that
11:15 as she was driving down uh 300 North uh
11:19 for like the seventh time that day that
11:22 she uh drove past a man at around just
11:26 shy of four o'clock that she says was uh
12:30 muddy from head to toe uh and bloody and
12:34 that he had blood towards the bottom of
12:36 his his jeans closer to his shoes and
12:40 that uh she claimed that she got a
12:42 pretty decent look at
12:44 him and so you know she was one of the
12:46 witnesses they used to get Richard Allen
12:49 under arrest um also that like like I'm
12:53 going to really be trying to cram a
12:54 couple things and I I know how I tangent
12:56 sometimes y'all but if you guys haven't
12:58 heard Tobin The Medalist allergy guy
12:00 he's out go denied it he's he's not he's
12:04 not allowed to
12:05 testify shocked but not shocked um it's
12:08 a it's a bad ruling it's just a really
12:11 it's a insane ruling um one of these
12:14 days all these motions are getting filed
12:17 I'm going to do a live on those because
12:19 we're not hearing about them as as the
12:21 trials proceeding like I'm I'm finding
12:23 out about them probably after you guys
12:25 are in terms of rulings so uh yeah I'm
13:30 just like anything that's happening
13:33 that's not being mentioned in court all
13:35 of us in court are behind in time in
13:39 terms of what's happening in terms of
13:41 rulings because she's not coming out and
13:43 saying okay I Ruled on your motion I
13:45 don't know if you guys heard it that may
13:47 happen back in Chambers I don't think so
13:49 because every day when I get in there
13:51 the lawyers are all Milling about in The
13:53 Well of the Court getting ready getting
13:55 their exhibits ready looking through
13:57 notes you know just getting prepared for
13:60 the day so um that was a big ruling uh
13:04 Andrea's motion was also denied I was
13:06 frankly surprised she ruled on it my my
13:08 guess is she wasn't going to touch it
13:10 but she just she just uh denied it
13:12 without hearing which Andre and I both
13:14 knew that was going to happen uh but a
13:16 record was made so that's good all right
13:18 so Sarah Sarah carau gets on the stand
13:21 she is uh she is a deli resident she has
13:23 lived in Deli her whole life and she
13:26 lives very close to the trails and uh
13:29 her General habit is that she goes to
14:32 the trails almost every day with her
14:33 dogs to walk that particular day she did
14:36 not go to the trails though because
14:39 originally she had testified she's like
14:40 yeah I'm out there daily and then uh
14:43 Dina was the one directing her she said
14:46 is it every day
14:47 or and you know and then she got the
14:50 hint and she's like oh almost every day
14:52 nearly nearly daily and
14:55 so uh on this particular day she did not
14:58 go out to the trails and uh but she did
14:01 she said it was a nice day very nice it
14:03 was a mild day for February it was she
14:06 said it was 47° she's the I think she
14:09 said it was 47 degrees or maybe 51 I
14:12 have it somewhere in here point being
14:14 that they're all giving different
14:15 degrees what the temperature was varying
14:18 from like 41 up to 55 I've heard by all
14:21 the uh different
14:23 testimony and uh she said it was a you
14:25 know a a like just a nice day for early
14:30 February which we've heard Betsy Blair
15:32 was the one who's a little bit older
15:34 she's like yeah I thought it was a
15:35 little chilly out which in reality it is
15:37 I mean we're not wearing shorts and a
15:39 t-shirt when it's like you know in the
15:41 40s but for early February just coming
15:44 out of winter that's like the first kind
15:45 of like oh pretty decent out you know
15:48 let's get out let's go do something so
15:51 uh she typically enters through the
15:52 mirrors entrance and you guys should
15:54 know what that is at this point remember
15:56 we have you can enter over Freedom
15:59 bridge where you come in go right on the
15:02 trails that leads you right into the
15:03 trails that was a path that I took on
15:05 Thursday last week when I went and
15:07 walked it uh you also have the mir's
15:10 entrance which is off of 300 and you've
15:13 got uh Old mir's Farm on the north side
15:17 of 300 and on the South Side you have
15:19 what they have called the mirrors
15:21 entrance and and Sarah actually gave a
15:23 little bit of a history she's like oh
15:25 you know that was land that wasn't being
15:27 used and it was donated uh by the mir's
15:30 family so that's why they call it the
16:31 mir's entrance and and she started my my
16:35 first impressions from her about her
16:38 were that she seemed almost
16:42 rehearsed in the first 10 minutes like
16:44 she had practiced what she was going to
16:47 say what her demeanor was going to be
16:49 like like and it it seemed it seemed
16:52 like she had it down pat like she was
16:55 very Polished in the beginning uh like
16:58 much more than the other I Witnesses who
16:60 just seemed like people that were
16:02 testifying in a trial that were nervous
16:05 she didn't strike me as nervous she
16:07 seemed the opposite of nervous uh which
16:10 was surprising with some of the things
16:11 that she talked about with regard to
16:13 herself kind of trying to explain why
16:18 her memory may have been spotty about
16:20 certain things so at any rate um she
16:24 said on that particular day
16:27 uh and and they always always asked
16:29 these Witnesses if they ever walked
17:31 across the Highbridge and she said when
17:32 I was 16 I did it's like now that I'm an
17:35 adult it's terrifying I I would never do
17:37 it um which I agree with I was I was
17:40 like I said last night I would have I
17:42 was thinking about going across at some
17:43 point I'm like ah that seems horrifying
17:45 and why uh and
17:47 then uh she did not know the girl she
17:50 was not familiar with Abby or Libby uh
17:52 she was alerted to the fact that they
17:54 went missing because she got an amber
17:56 alert on 13th uh she did not walk the
17:59 trails that day she did happen to drive
17:01 by the entrance three or four times that
17:03 day uh she was just driving around town
17:06 enjoying the people
17:08 out that were enjoying the nice day all
17:11 all the people that came out of their
17:12 hidey holes to enjoy a an early early
17:16 spring uh Slash late winter mild
17:20 day uh she said that she saw vehicles in
17:25 the lot all day we're talking about uh
17:28 old CPS
17:30 that lot uh she said there were cars
18:32 there all day so the trails were active
18:34 I think at this point we know that
18:36 throughout the course of the day there
18:37 were approximately 70 people out there
18:40 uh throughout you know from morning
18:43 until you know kind of the search goes
18:45 on not including the
18:47 Searchers
18:48 so she says that uh around 4 o'clock it
18:52 was actually 356 that she noticed four
18:55 people standing near the mirror's
18:58 entrance now I thought this testimony
18:00 was
18:01 strange and and like I always wonder you
18:04 know when you have a
18:06 trial especially when it's seven years
18:09 after the fact you know how much has
18:11 changed in their minds how much
18:13 confirmation bias is going on how much
18:15 have they
18:16 consumed of you know the mass of
18:20 publicity that's been surrounding this
18:21 case over the time and it's it's hard to
18:24 know but you know she so she says she
18:27 sees these four people
18:30 and she says that one of them has she
19:32 doesn't identify if it's the four girls
19:34 that we know exist which is rley and
19:36 Brienne and Ra's two sisters but I I
19:40 have I have a feeling that it was not
19:43 because they would have been long gone
19:44 at that point we know that they were
19:46 gone by depends on who you ask but they
19:49 were gone pretty early uh like a couple
19:52 hours before she would have been driving
19:54 by but she said that one of them had
19:56 bright blonde hair uh with kind of like
19:59 a PE like a pink streak is how she
19:01 described
19:03 it and then uh shortly after that while
19:07 driving and she claims that she was
19:08 going about 35 miles an hour she says
19:12 she saw a man covered in mud and blood
19:15 and no remember this is UND direct okay
19:19 what do you mean there was no Amber
19:20 Alert greeny is that true is that true
19:24 that that would be interesting because
19:25 she 100% said that she got an amber
19:28 alert so that would that would be that
20:30 would be interesting to know they
20:32 released her from her subpoena so
20:34 there's no calling her back that would
20:35 have been nice if somebody on the
20:37 defense would have known that there
20:38 wasn't an amber alert to be able to nail
20:41 around that uh so she says she sees this
20:44 man covered in mud and
20:46 blood uh walking on the side of the road
20:49 okay so just know that there is no
20:51 sidewalk on either side of 300 North
20:54 okay it is it's a country road so you
20:57 basically have gravel on either side
20:59 and it's a two-lane highway or country
20:02 road uh and she claims that he's walking
20:05 West towards town he's walking in the
20:08 opposite direction of her path of travel
20:11 and then she claims that she looked at
20:13 him uh but that they did not make eye
20:16 contact she said she did not recognize
20:18 the man as somebody that she had seen
20:20 around
20:21 town and it always surprises me because
20:25 so she doesn't have this guy wearing a
20:27 face covering right um Rick Allen has
21:30 worked at the CVS in this town that is
21:33 very small I mean the CVS is like the
21:36 only Pharmacy you've got you know it's
21:39 probably like the
21:41 biggest retail store in town maybe save
21:44 for like a Dollar General on the
21:46 outskirts but like in terms of
21:48 around you know the the the main Square
21:52 which by the way there are some amazing
21:54 restaurants in Deli like every meal I've
21:56 had here has been really good for lunch
21:59 um but I digress so she claims she looks
21:03 at him he did not make eye contact eye
21:05 contact she did not recognize the man
21:08 she uh did not know at that point the
21:10 girls were missing uh when she gets home
21:12 she learned the girls were
21:14 missing uh at some point uh then DEA
21:17 shows her the big blowup the bridge guy
21:19 pick and she asks that question she's
21:21 asked all the eyewitnesses she says do
21:23 you recognize that image is the person
21:26 that everyone calls Bridge guy and she
21:28 sayses I do
21:29 and she says that that that is the man
22:33 that I saw walking on the road that day
22:36 and that he was covered with mud and
22:37 blood
22:39 and uh she also so she goes into a
22:42 little more detail she says that the way
22:45 that I would describe it is that he had
22:47 a sketchy walk and and this is where she
22:49 starts getting like I'm like wow this
22:52 this witness is uh Next Level she's like
22:55 may I get down on the may I get get down
22:58 from the stand and straight how I saw
22:60 walking she doesn't even like and and
22:02 like Dean's like yeah but hold on wait a
22:05 second we'll get there so she's like got
22:07 this whole plan Like You Can Tell She's
22:09 been working through this testimony in
22:11 her head you can just tell when
22:12 somebody's ready to go you know she's
22:15 she's raring to go she's raring to
22:17 testify so uh deer then asked the
22:21 question of can you describe what he
22:22 looked like and she said he was covered
22:24 with mud and blood and then she does get
22:26 down off the S and she says it was like
22:28 a sketchy walk is how she how she
23:32 described it she said that he had his
23:33 hands jammed in his pockets and you know
23:36 his shoulders were kind of in and then
23:38 he was looking down I mean that's like I
23:41 I don't know how you guys walk like I'm
23:43 not a guy who walks my head up like when
23:46 I like I'm often thinking like when I'm
23:48 walking the dog I have my headphones on
23:51 and I'm typically like deep in thought
23:53 or I'm listening and I'm like looking at
23:55 the ground you know but for when my dog
23:57 rips my arm out of my you know socket
23:00 because he's chasing a squirrel you know
23:02 and it's like I'm not paying attention
23:04 but like I I don't necessarily consider
23:06 that sketchy you know she she said well
23:08 you know normal people walk around and
23:10 everybody's making eye contact with
23:12 every person they pass I'm like no
23:13 they're not I'm like I I feel like a
23:15 weirdo if I'm like making eye contact
23:17 with every person I'm like people don't
23:19 do that anymore you know like and I'm
23:21 sure that there's some truth to that
23:23 like the smaller the town you get
23:26 probably the more common that is you
23:28 know I mean especially in a smaller town
24:31 where you're going to know a lot of
24:32 people right you know it's
24:35 probably I'm I'm trying to think of when
24:37 I'm walking around here maybe I do keep
24:40 my head up a little more I am like I I
24:42 feel like I say hi to more people when
24:44 I'm in Deli I'm not gonna so maybe I
24:47 retract that whole statement maybe
24:48 that's maybe that's accurate I I'm I'm
24:51 very friendly when I'm down here I'm
24:53 saying hi to all the deputies when I
24:55 come into the courthouse you know they
24:56 they know us at this point like all the
24:58 people the restaurants know us so I'm
24:00 always trying to be very pleasant I want
24:02 them to to have a good impression of me
24:04 that I'm a a kind and decent person um
24:09 so she gets back on the stand after her
24:10 little performance there and uh she goes
24:14 on to describe a little bit what she saw
24:15 she said so his upper torso was just
24:18 saturated in
24:20 mud incredibly muddy that his jeans were
24:23 also muddy but then down around like The
24:26 Shins going down to the ankles she said
24:28 she first sat on the sand that it looked
24:30 like there was blood spots which we
25:33 would probably refer to in our game as
25:35 uh blood spatter um she claims that she
25:39 did not watch as she's driving past 35
25:41 miles an hour okay and she claims that
25:44 she did not view him in the rearview
25:46 mirror um so now she
25:50 testifies and you guys tell me in the
25:53 chat how off she is with her time she
25:56 claims that she doesn't contact long
25:59 enforcement for three weeks now I've
25:02 heard that she didn't contact law
25:04 enforcement until
25:07 July
25:09 so I don't know you know it's like I
25:12 don't know like like that's a huge gap
25:15 in time either way even three weeks when
25:18 they're putting out on blast if you were
25:20 down out and around the trail that day
25:23 and you think that you have information
25:24 that can help the investigation reach
25:27 out to us she waits at least three weeks
26:31 and I've heard that it's more so and as
26:34 a matter of fact and redirect I think it
26:37 was a Freudian slip by deer because deer
26:41 said three months so I don't know if
26:44 that was the reality coming out
26:48 accidentally by deer and it was she
26:50 Freudian slipped it or if it was just a
26:53 slip of the
26:55 tongue I mean so if anybody knows like
26:58 like it's is probably hanging around
26:01 somewhere else on the live that started
26:02 already she could be over at te's she's
26:04 a mod over there like sluth would know
26:06 the answer but that like so let let's
26:10 check that with a red flag right there
26:12 okay um so then she she finally goes she
26:16 talks to an officer she sees an officer
26:18 standing by the mirror's entrance
26:19 waiting for people like hoping that
26:21 people will come you know that her
26:22 walking in the trails he's asking hey
26:25 you know were you out here on the trails
26:26 on the 13th you know and and so they're
26:29 still trying to gather tips get
27:31 information she then says that she sees
27:34 him she feels that that was an act of
27:37 God that this guy was stationed there so
27:41 that that Spurs her on to give her her
27:44 account of what she saw that day so
27:49 um at that point DEA shifts she says
27:52 okay you've seen the uh HHS the who's
27:56 your Hardware or who's your Harvest soft
27:58 uh who's our hardware store oh my God
27:01 I'm never going to say that name who's
27:03 your Harvest store video correct she
27:05 says yes and you saw the still correct
27:09 yes and that was in fact your vehicle
27:12 correct so we heard about that during
27:14 mullen's late testimony yesterday with
27:17 the stills of the cars that was in fact
27:20 she verifies that that was indeed her
27:22 car uh that we saw at 356 driving down
27:25 the
27:26 road so she recognized it as her vehicle
27:29 and that is uh EV
28:31 219 so they then publish that to the
28:34 jury and say look that's her car right
28:36 there there's proof she was there she's
28:38 telling the truth about that
28:40 part oh what's up
28:42 La uh okay so she's done now like I've
28:46 told you she's done with direct state
28:49 has been very very quick with these
28:52 Witnesses and and they do it because
28:55 they're trying to limit the amount that
28:57 they're getting out on direct because of
28:00 that certain objection that we yesterday
28:02 which is beyond the scope now beyond the
28:05 scope is where you have a defense
28:09 attorney or the state depending on who
28:11 did direct asking questions that were
28:14 not brought up during the direct
28:16 examination if they go into an area that
28:19 was not covered during the direct
28:21 examination you as an attorney can say
28:24 hey judge I'm going to object here it's
28:27 beyond the scope of the direct
28:29 they can't get into it we didn't talk
29:30 about it so they can't talk about it
29:32 because you're only allowed to
29:33 cross-examine as to instances or issues
29:37 that they've raised or facts so they
29:40 keep they kept it brief with all all
29:43 four of the
29:44 eyewitnesses Baldwin gets up does a
29:46 cross it gets heated right away and
29:49 Baldwin I keep telling it to you it's
29:51 it's very it's very difficult to get him
29:55 riled in terms of a witness now we
29:57 haven't had any Witnesses on the stand
29:59 that have even come close to getting her
29:02 uh to getting him riled this was the
29:04 first one and he's still he maintained
29:06 his cool you know and she was like
29:08 combative is the way that I would I
29:10 would phrase it so he goes in on her
29:13 right away first thing he asks is you
29:16 used mud first several the first like
29:21 several times when you first spoke with
29:24 law enforcement isn't that correct and
29:27 she said he said
29:29 actually you used mud the word mud 11
30:31 times in your first interview correct
30:34 and he said
30:35 yeah uh and she's like but I'm pretty
30:40 sure I said blood he's like okay well
30:43 I'm I'm gonna show you uh you know do
30:45 you need me to refresh your recollection
30:47 because have you seen the
30:50 transcript and she says well I maybe I
30:52 don't know he's like all right well I'm
30:54 going to I'm going to see you want me to
30:56 refresh your recollection as to whether
30:58 or not you said blood the first time
30:60 that you spoke with them it's like I
30:01 don't know so he brings it up to her she
30:03 reads it and she says yeah I I I do not
30:06 State blood in that first
30:08 interview and then Andy asks her so no
30:11 one told you not to say blood during
30:13 that interview right like you weren't
30:15 directed by law enforcement not to say
30:17 blood right he says no I wasn't directed
30:19 to do that so he says a couple weeks
30:22 later uh you interview again with law
30:25 enforcement and that time you say m 13
30:29 times and she says she's like I and you
31:34 didn't say blood so you say mud a bunch
31:36 of times but you're still not claiming
31:38 that you saw
31:39 blood and she's like well I I don't know
31:43 that that's not right and he's like okay
31:46 so can I refresh your recollection again
31:48 so he goes up brings her the transcript
31:50 again she takes a long time to read
31:51 through it and she says I do not see the
31:53 word blood in there but I'm going to
31:55 tell you right now that I think that
31:57 they lost it an hour of my video
31:59 interview or maybe an hour and a half so
31:03 I was like whoa wait they lost an hour
31:05 and a half of
31:07 her videotaped
31:09 interview and she's like and it's the
31:11 during the part that they lost
31:15 that I said blood and so baldon's like
31:20 okay I I mean I guess we believe you you
31:23 know it's like so she then interviews a
31:26 third time March 20th two years
32:30 later and
32:33 uh again she doesn't say uh this time
32:38 she doesn't say muddy she just says
32:40 bloody she skips the whole muddy part
32:43 and and remember her testimony was that
32:44 this guy was like super muddy so she she
32:48 at this point she's just switched
32:50 completely over to he's bloody and she
32:53 gets really combative at this point she
32:55 says that's no wrong like that's that's
32:59 not correct I said both he says no you
32:01 didn't he's like would it help you to
32:04 read the transcript to refresh your
32:06 recollection and she says no it wouldn't
32:10 I don't want to read the transcript like
32:12 it it was it was like it was crazy it
32:15 was like it was like it was unbelievable
32:19 and like ga's just kind of like sitting
32:20 there watching this all happen and like
32:25 Baldwin looks at the judge he's like
32:27 judge are you going to direct her to
32:29 allow me to try to refresh a
33:31 recollection go doesn't say
33:33 anything and so he's like
33:38 okay all right uh whatever so like and
33:42 at that point if you're sitting there as
33:44 a juror and you're watching her act this
33:47 way like you have to think that there's
33:49 something off like there there's to me
33:52 it just destroyed her credibility I
33:54 thought that she had no credibility
33:55 moving forward during that and and I did
33:58 didn't I didn't understand her
33:00 motivation for doing that you know it's
33:04 like like is she trying to inject
33:05 herself in the case in a way that she
33:07 need not do is she you know does she
33:11 feel that she's a critical witness and
33:13 that that she's helping secure the
33:15 conviction of Richard I don't know but
33:18 you know she was very friendly with the
33:19 state which is not unusual when you have
33:22 state Witnesses and then they get
33:24 defensive when the defense attorneys
33:26 start questioning but
33:28 it was it was off-putting I I I would
34:31 love to know what the jurors thought of
34:34 her I mean I was talking to everyone
34:36 behind me including Andrea I was like so
34:39 she was a lot right she was like man she
34:43 was a lot
34:45 so uh she then says to Andy she's like
34:49 are you trying to trick me and he says I
34:52 assure you ma'am I am not trying to
34:54 trick you and she's she has been the
34:56 loudest Witness in terms of every
34:60 witness has been on the stand everyone
34:02 that's testified
34:04 is like craning my neck turning my ear
34:07 towards what they're saying cupping it
34:09 like I'm I'm just shy of rolling up a
34:11 piece of paper and like sticking it out
34:13 of my ear because and I don't care what
34:15 it looks like so I can hear and this
34:18 this witness I had no problem hearing
34:20 she was full throat she was definitely
34:23 using her best outdoor voice as they as
34:26 they like to say in the courtroom
34:29 so uh and she she says quote my
35:32 description has always been the same
35:35 muddy and bloody muddy and bloody muddy
35:37 and bloody so uh she happened to have
35:41 said the word blood 16 times in her
35:43 third interview and it and she made the
35:46 quote that it looked like a hog had been
35:48 slaughtered and then she starts like she
35:52 she had this habit of looking over the
35:53 jury and just starts chatting with them
35:55 she like I I don't really know what it
35:57 looks like like when a hog gets
35:59 slaughtered I don't know why said you
35:01 know it's just completely inappropriate
35:03 things for a witness to be doing it was
35:06 it was so weird it really was um at that
35:11 point uh when she gave a description
35:14 when she was going back to her original
35:16 description of Muddy and bloody she's
35:18 like I thought he might have fallen off
35:21 the trail or the bridge and just fell in
35:23 the mud I mean he was that covered in
35:25 mud and then uh she goes on to describe
35:28 what she saw she said he was wearing
35:29 initially she said he was wearing a tan
36:31 jacket not a blue jacket and then after
36:34 two years during her third interview she
36:36 changed it to a blue
36:38 jacket okay
36:41 and and then Andy asked her he's like
36:43 did the did the photo of the bridge guy
36:45 have an impact on your memory she's like
36:48 what what do you mean I don't understand
36:49 what you're saying did the photo of the
36:52 bridge guy that you saw hundreds of
36:54 times have an impact on your memory and
36:58 she's like I she's I don't know she's
36:00 like I I don't want to like she and then
36:02 he goes into this thing where during I
36:05 think it was the second
36:07 interview that she had specifically told
36:10 the cops I don't want you to put a
36:12 picture in front of me because I don't
36:15 want my memory to be
36:16 contaminated okay and she knew that the
36:18 photo was everywhere yet the officer
36:21 kept showed her a photo and then kept it
36:24 in front of her uh during the entire
36:26 interview and he asks is that why your
36:29 story changed and she says no like I
37:33 like I think it was probably anxiety
37:35 like I like this whole thing has been
37:37 like a nightmare for me I've been
37:39 incredibly anxious I just wanted to come
37:41 in here and testify and have this thing
37:43 be
37:43 over so she then goes on to testify that
37:47 uh she saw kind of a brown sweater or
37:50 sweatshirt under the now blue coat the
37:53 formerly tan coat and that he had curls
37:56 in his hair that were poking out out
37:58 from his hood because he said his hood
37:00 was up next came a
37:04 very
37:06 demonstrative uh
37:08 emphatic back and forth where Baldwin
37:12 quotes her transcript where she said
37:15 that he had very that the the person she
37:18 saw had very effeminate eyes and she
37:23 said I never said that I never said he
37:25 had like and she used the wrong word she
37:28 Saidi never said he had romantic
38:31 eyes and then and Andy says no very
38:34 effeminate eyes he's like can I refresh
38:36 your
38:37 recollection can I show you she's like
38:40 no no you can't I do not want you to
38:42 refresh he's like we're gonna do this
38:43 again we're gonna do this again and he's
38:47 like all right okay never just so she
38:51 refuses to like review the transcript
38:53 I've never seen anything like it and
38:54 I've never seen anything like it wherein
38:56 the judge hasn't kind of intervened and
38:58 said ma'am okay you're going to have to
38:01 you're have to relax a little bit and if
38:04 the attorney asks you if you want to
38:06 refresh your recollection by reading
38:07 your words you should do that and it may
38:11 not refresh your recollection because
38:13 refreshing your recollection doesn't
38:15 mean that you read something and then
38:17 now you're repeating what you read
38:19 you're reading it to see if it actually
38:22 jars your memory so there's a
38:24 distinction there I know it sounds kind
38:26 of crazy but you're supposed to be
38:29 reading it and in your mind it jars your
39:33 memory like oh all right yeah I I do
39:35 remember saying that now
39:38 so yeah and and I'm I'm like I'm gonna
39:41 go I'm 98% that she said the word
39:43 romantic eyes like I like double check
39:47 if you guys are gonna check Andrea and
39:49 Lee see if like she they heard romantic
39:52 eyes when she came back and and Andy was
39:55 saying eminite eyes so refuses the
39:58 transcript and he moves on and yeah it's
39:01 like
39:03 you your phone pinged off the tower that
39:07 day right and and they got your phone
39:11 number right they got they were able to
39:12 get your phone number she's like yeah
39:14 well they were pinging everybody's
39:16 everybody's phone in town like and he's
39:18 like well how do you know that she's
39:19 like well my parents they they ping
39:21 their phone too so like everybody was
39:23 being pinged they were trying to figure
39:24 out whose phones were what so
39:28 she then says uh what did I say because
40:32 I see her did I say romantic is that
40:34 what I said because in my notes I see on
40:36 the margin I wrote romantic romantic
40:38 eyes is that what I said I can't
40:40 remember all right so uh this is where
40:42 she testifies that she's driving down
40:44 the road remember she says she's driving
40:46 down the road 35 miles an hour okay
40:49 which is pretty brisk and then she
40:52 claims that she sees him for 30
40:55 seconds and and Baldwin's like so 30
40:59 seconds uh you mean from beginning until
40:01 you pass him because you already
40:03 testified that you didn't look at him in
40:04 your rearview
40:06 mirror
40:08 and uh I don't know I don't know what
40:10 kind of car she drives I don't remember
40:12 her testifying to the Mak and
40:14 model uh so she says she sees him for 30
40:17 seconds and she would describe
40:19 him uh and she's like look she's like I
40:22 know what I saw and I saw a white man in
40:26 his 30s 40s or 50s that's what I saw and
41:31 and he's like okay I'm good he sits down
41:34 uh deer gets up for the
41:35 redirect she goes into the hoodie the
41:38 tan sweater and she saw a tan hood and
41:42 that they they she asked her about the
41:45 Hat because she hadn't said anything
41:46 about the Hat yet and she says yes yes
41:49 there was a hat and it was a very
41:52 strange hat it was a strange hat she
41:54 like you know and then this is one of
41:56 the times where she looks over the jury
41:57 she's like really any hat that's not a
41:59 baseball hat I think is a strange hat so
41:03 you know this hat was a very strange hat
41:06 and I'm just like what wow this like
41:08 I've never seen anything like she's like
41:10 she's like it was kind of like um and
41:12 she made this weird statement that it
41:14 was she was trying to figure out what
41:16 type of hat it
41:18 was on I think on the
41:21 internet and she said it was like kind
41:24 of a like for her it was like a Tinder
41:26 profile except with hats trying to go
41:28 through all the hats there were and she
42:31 said that all she knows is that it had
42:32 kind of like a
42:33 bill and that uh she was able to see the
42:36 bottom of his ears so he has a hood up
42:40 yet she's going 35 miles an
42:43 hour no no when she's looking for the
42:46 Hat online she said it reminded her of
42:49 going through Tinder except a Tinder for
42:52 hats
42:54 so this whole thing about the ears was
42:57 really weird she says she sees his
42:59 loes uh again she gets into the posture
42:02 she said it was she said it was weird or
42:04 sketchy that's how she described it
42:06 slumped and like kind of folded into
42:08 himself and
42:11 that
42:12 um uh she says she dips into the second
42:16 interview and she says so your a portion
42:18 of your video is missing is that what
42:20 you're telling us and she's like yeah an
42:22 hour to an hour and a half of that video
42:24 is missing of my my recorded interview
42:28 and so um she then hands her which all
43:32 of the lawyers have been doing on both
43:33 sides have been marked she gives her a
43:35 uh asks her to mark up a photo of bridge
43:37 guy and uh on this on a overview map of
43:41 the area as to where she saw and she
43:44 starts again she turns the jury she's oh
43:46 like so when you take this
43:48 back to the room during deliberations I
43:51 want you to starts giving like it was
43:53 the strangest thing she starts giving
43:55 instructions the jury and and Dina's
43:57 like ma'am she's like please please
43:59 don't do that
43:01 um so uh she then says that you know she
43:05 calls him dots of blood down by the legs
43:09 she said that uh again sticks with the
43:11 muddy and bloody that the coat was dark
43:13 colored uh and that she couldn't see the
43:15 blood on the coat if there was any that
43:18 the sleeves had mud and it was really
43:20 muddy caked with mud and uh some point
43:25 she gets into the third interview deer
43:28 starts leading Andy makes an
44:31 objection and uh she said that she was
44:34 like when she's trying to come up with
44:35 an
44:36 explanation in her third interview and
44:39 why she didn't say Mud She said that she
44:42 was exhausted I was exhausted talking
44:45 about
44:46 mud and the officer was very much
44:48 focused on the blood so you know I was
44:51 just trying to give the officer what he
44:53 wanted and then
44:56 so and and like again this is where Andy
44:00 gets up does a real brief and like that
44:04 he's he goes into that again talking
44:06 about the muddy and the Bloody and then
44:08 again she says we're doing this again
44:09 this this what we're doing this again so
44:12 he's just like no we're good just sits
44:14 down um all right so there were a few
44:16 jury question so she was done she was
44:17 something else she was what a way to
44:19 start the day and she was on for an hour
44:21 so she was a long witness for an
44:23 eyewitness she was a really really long
44:25 witness for an eyewitness so
44:28 jury questions which I always love what
44:30 was your age in 2017 she was 26 so she
45:33 was not a kid she was you know in her
45:35 20s how wide is the road she says it's
45:37 two lanes but that it's very very tight
45:40 if there's two vehicles so she's like
45:43 you know like you you feel uncomfortable
45:45 now I drove down 30 and I didn't I felt
45:46 like it was a normal two lane I didn't
45:48 feel that I was at
45:50 all uh like worried about hitting the
45:53 car coming opposite our way um so she
45:56 says can you can you describe so they
45:59 asked can you describe how you saw the
45:01 blood spatter she's like I like I don't
45:04 know how to say it you know but I can
45:06 tell you that with the blood that the
45:11 blood was still in the the bright
45:14 phase so she's saying you know it was
45:16 really
45:17 red that's how I saw it on his jeans
45:20 like like she's watching a horror movie
45:21 or something that's not what blood looks
45:23 like when it like like the whole thing
45:25 was just nuts so uh the next question
45:28 how close were you to the man and she
46:31 says five feet so now remember he's
46:35 walking on the opposite direction now
46:37 they didn't clarify I don't know if he's
46:39 walking in the opposite direction on her
46:42 side or if he's walking in the opposite
46:45 direction on the other side I'm not sure
46:48 I don't know definitively
46:51 so uh the final question
46:55 is uh or no I think
46:58 I think Andy says to that question
46:00 because the way they work it with the
46:02 juror questions is they'll ask the
46:05 question the witness will answer and
46:08 then the attorneys get an opportunity to
46:10 be able to ask questions as well and
46:13 then I think a Andy asked didn't you
46:17 testify uh one of the times that she was
46:20 you know that he was 20 feet away from
46:22 you so bottom line she was just
46:25 incredibly inconsistent all the way
46:27 through the process her her story
47:30 changed so many times I I don't know
47:32 what she's bringing to the table and
47:34 frankly with the state's timeline I I'm
47:37 a little surprised they called her the
47:39 state's timeline remember they've got
47:41 the girls getting killed between 230 and
47:44 330 I mean I guess
47:47 356 kind of works for them in that
47:49 timeline of a guy walking towards
47:52 town maybe I guess like I mean I walked
47:55 that whole like the trail system there
47:57 so I mean
47:59 theoretically but I don't know it's a
47:02 it's a tough timeline for them to be
47:04 able to
47:05 prove all right so the second witness uh
47:07 and I got to speed it up I'm already I'm
47:09 like I could tell I'm gonna have to come
47:11 back after Vinnie I'm gonna have to do
47:12 another live oh I was trying to get like
47:14 a a night where I could just go to sleep
47:16 early uh so Dr
47:19 Roland core KO HR uh an older gentleman
47:24 uh i' I'd guess probably late 60s early
47:26 70s
47:27 semi-retired forensic
47:29 pathologist uh very learned uh he's been
48:33 doing it a long time teaches he's an
48:36 instructor uh he's got mad
48:40 degrees very qualified guy um you know
48:44 been doing it
48:45 forever he's done I think 7,000
48:49 autopsies he said seven to 8,000 autopsy
48:52 so the guy's the guy's done an autopsy
48:54 or two in his time um so then he kind of
48:58 goes through the process uh which I'm
48:60 going to kind of I'm GNA I'm going to
48:02 blaze through this stuff um like if you
48:05 guys probably want those Deets which
48:07 typically I'll give you but uh because I
48:10 know some people find the the just the
48:13 the whole science by him autopsy is
48:15 really interesting and I took very
48:16 diligent notes you know and he talks
48:18 about like when they get the body what
48:20 they do when they get it out of the bag
48:24 um you know they take notes he'll always
48:26 take copious notes to hair color eye
48:28 color injuries any trauma he notes blood
49:31 uh Blood on the body any wounds it's all
49:33 documented he examines the clothing uh
49:36 he examines it for holes if there's any
49:38 kind of debris uh any kind of uh
49:41 evidence on their hairs fibers anything
49:43 like that um you know because there's
49:46 typically always evidence Tech or at the
49:49 very least a law enforcement officer of
49:52 some variety in the room with them when
49:54 they're doing this uh so will also look
49:57 for insect activity okay and at that
49:01 point uh the body is
49:03 undressed he'll make notes on the
49:05 external observation of what he sees
49:08 prior to washing the body down now in
49:10 this case obviously we know that Libby
49:13 was unclothed uh she obviously had a lot
49:16 of debris a lot of mud on her you know
49:18 so he made you know looked at both sides
49:21 of the body uh and before they end up
49:25 washing the bodies down
49:28 and they also check for evidence of sa
50:32 and so we can confirm once again that a
50:36 sexual crime evidence kit was used on
50:38 both girls samples were taken uh blood
50:41 samples fingernail samples uh and they
50:44 took swabs um from cervix multiple they
50:48 did a vaginal flush to see if there was
50:50 any residue in there they collected all
50:53 of it all of it went into
50:55 boxes which are the kits
50:57 and uh so the external examination is
50:60 wounds illustrations of wounds
50:02 trajectory of wounds whether or not the
50:05 wounds look to be left or right if it's
50:07 a sharp force instrument uh and then
50:10 he's looking for blood samples if he
50:11 finds any he takes blood samples um
50:14 he'll take a blood sample from the
50:17 femoral and then uh he's also um then he
50:21 gets to the external
50:23 examination and uh that's when he starts
50:26 doing that for to see the full extent of
50:28 the wounds see if like organs were
51:31 pierced especially if it was the
51:33 stabbing type injuries um and it gives
51:36 him a better understanding of the cause
51:37 of death it's instructive for them to do
51:39 that so they do that by opening the
51:41 chest cavity and the abdominal cavity
51:44 and at that point they'll also make an
51:47 incision on the back of the skull
51:48 they'll peel the scalp back and
51:50 ultimately they're taking the skull cap
51:52 off in order to examine the brain um
51:55 each organ is removed moved individually
51:58 um and uh they're always concerned with
51:02 making the body presentable post autopsy
51:05 so that uh when you know they're going
51:08 to be buried uh that the body is is as
51:12 intact as it can be and presentable to
51:14 the families so then all organs are
51:16 examined and dissected organs are
51:19 weighed um and dissected he'll they'll
51:22 take tissue
51:23 samples again he he estimates that he's
51:26 done somewhere between 7700 and 7800 so
51:29 I was a little off there that's why I
52:31 don't guess I should just read my notes
52:32 autopsies in his career he's testified
52:34 in
52:35 court on on hundreds of occasions uh in
52:40 12 to 15 jurisdictions in Indiana four
52:42 jurisdictions in Illinois and I think he
52:44 did a one by zoom in Montana he's
52:47 primarily testified for the prosecution
52:49 but he will testify for whoever contacts
52:51 I'm saying they need some testimony um
52:55 so then we look at uh States exhibits
52:58 123 through 137 those were photos taken
52:00 during the autopsy of both lab uh Libby
52:03 and Abby he's contacted on 214 to
52:06 conduct the autopsies on
52:09 21517 so then uh we've got a couple of
52:12 more that were so 224 and 222 are uh
52:16 admitted into evidence and those are
52:18 photos of the injuries
52:19 close-ups uh I think there was a 403
52:22 objection by uh Rosie he was the one who
52:25 did the cross on this and he said
52:28 that uh the uh that they're more
53:31 prejudicial than probative that there's
53:33 they're you know they're not they're not
53:35 giving the jury uh anything more than uh
53:38 anxiety and making them emotional by
53:40 having to look at the close-ups of the
53:42 wounds over objection the judge entered
53:44 them into evidence uh so on 215 they
53:48 perform uh multiple op Toops he goes the
53:51 process is like it doesn't matter if I'm
53:52 doing one or four on a given day my
53:56 process is always the same I complete my
53:58 worksheet height weight weigh the organs
53:01 go back to the office while the case is
53:02 fresh in mind make his notes and then so
53:05 they autop they autopsied Abby
53:08 first her height was 64 inches weight 95
53:12 pounds uh the clothing she was wearing a
53:14 a BL a black hooded sweatshirt blue
53:18 jeans camisol gray sports bra um no
53:21 socks external exam solitary insided
53:24 wound uh to the neck
53:27 uh and then I I think he said that it
54:30 was uh 5 cmers in length and then uh
54:35 initial
54:35 wound uh he deemed it to be uh two and
54:39 two uh two to two and a half uh
54:41 centimeters wide uh and it was the only
54:44 wound on her
54:45 neck so uh again he used the uh the sa
54:50 kit on her collected swabs vaginally
54:54 internally externally cervical swab uh
54:57 she was a nailbiter she had very short
54:59 nails so there was nothing to collect
54:01 from under her fingernails and then all
54:03 of the evidence was collected and the
54:05 samples were placed in the Box for
54:08 testing and uh he testified that there
54:10 was no evidence of traumatic sexual
54:12 assault contact uh and then lutrell who
54:15 was doing
54:16 the direct asked him well that doesn't
54:19 mean it didn't occur there's just no
54:20 evidence that occurred he says well
54:22 that's correct but I didn't see any
54:24 evidence of any kind of traumatic sexual
54:26 contact
54:27 uh and there was no trauma left behind
54:29 so he then describes that there's three
55:31 wounds there's insided wounds which are
55:33 longer than deep there's a stab wound
55:35 which is a deep it's deeper than long
55:38 and then uh a sharp wound which is
55:40 something uh that's done with large
55:43 knives or
55:44 axes um there's also lacerations which
55:47 are different lacerations are not the
55:50 same thing they are there's a tearing of
55:53 the skin with lacerations and they are
55:55 not caused by knives
55:57 so the only wound on her body was in
55:59 fact the neck wound uh no defensive
55:01 wounds no blunt force trauma no bruising
55:05 no ligature but then he says well he's
55:07 like there was a very faint ligature
55:09 mark across her lower face now when they
55:12 threw the picture up I could in fact see
55:14 it it was a very light line that kind of
55:17 came right below her mouth and then when
55:19 they had the picture up you could see
55:22 there was something that kind of ran
55:23 parallel with it that was like uh on the
55:26 upper portion under her chin so I he's
55:30 like I didn't find any he's like it
56:32 could have been like duct tape but I
56:34 didn't find any residue of duct tape it
56:37 could have been
56:38 cloth um I'm not sure what it was I
56:41 didn't find any evidence of what it was
56:43 on her person
56:46 so uh they tried to get into whether or
56:48 not that looked like that that if that
56:51 was something that was placed over her
56:52 mouth was it postmortem premortem or
56:55 perimortem he ended up Landing on
56:57 perimortem which is uh kind of in
56:00 between
56:02 so the directionality of the wound uh he
56:05 term transversal and he says that it
56:08 appeared to be right to left okay to her
56:11 right to left to aby's right to left and
56:13 there was damage to
56:15 vessels um whereas to one vessel and uh
56:20 as far as Liberty
56:22 went she had damage to the three main V
56:27 the right cored artery the left cored
56:29 artery and jugular vein uh which he
57:31 explained has no muscles in the walls he
57:34 was trying to explain kind of how it
57:36 works he says that um you know the
57:41 arteries uh they carry blood away from
57:44 the heart whereas the jugular returns
57:46 blood to the heart okay so uh they then
57:51 get some
57:52 more exhibits
57:54 admitted uh so 223a for Abby 223 L for
57:58 Libby and those are the schematic
57:00 drawings which they put up on the big
57:03 screen and and these were so they're not
57:07 they're not photos thankfully because
57:09 they were uh like I said they're
57:12 schematic drawings that kind of show a
57:15 throat with uh you know no skin so
57:18 you're seeing the the veins the arteries
57:21 in the muscles and then he kind of goes
57:24 through and says that uh you know goes
57:27 through what the there was a partial
58:31 uh partial transaction of the um of both
58:35 of the uh kateed and then there was uh
58:40 and he said in terms of asking him like
58:43 how deep the cuts were he said that
58:45 roughly they went about roughly about a
58:48 half an inch under the skin it was his
58:50 gestate he said that the earrings were
58:52 in
58:53 place in her ears
58:57 um and then there was he would term it a
58:59 gaping
58:01 wound and again he said right to left
58:03 but he's not 100% on
58:05 that he said that the knife handle and
58:08 and when you're looking at the wound he
58:09 said that it looked like there was a
58:11 little blunt trauma at the end of the
58:12 wound which is what made him think it
58:14 was right to left or he thought it might
58:15 have been the hilt or the handle of the
58:18 knife that may have caused that that
58:21 little injury um he said that she had a
58:24 minor abrasion of the lips
58:27 and then again this very faint reddish
58:28 Mark below the mouth and the chin no
59:31 residue from uh any tape found and or
59:35 any kind of residue from any kind of
59:37 cloth or Fiber uh does not appear to
59:40 have her mouth covered and then
59:44 um she said she was clearing on her back
59:46 for a period of time because liver
59:48 mortise uh had set in and that the body
59:51 has to be in that position for at least
59:53 eight hours in order for liver mortis to
59:56 set in
59:57 or liver depending depending on which
59:60 forensic pathologist you ask verer Fitz
59:03 would say liver mortis rer mortis okay
59:06 so we then move on to Libby uh height 64
59:10 inches same height as Abby weight 200
59:13 pounds uh organ's placed in a
59:16 bag and then uh so he he goes back into
59:19 it he says so after they they take all
59:21 the organs out they do place them back
59:22 in a bag they put them in the cavity for
59:24 when they sew her up uh they also did
59:27 the uh the kit
59:29 on Libby there was no evidence uh
60:32 visible to the naked eye of
60:34 trauma um no defensive wounds uh no no
60:38 evidence of restraint she uh Libby had
60:42 four ins sized wounds to the neck maybe
60:44 five depending uh her hands were bagged
60:48 on the picture that we see in order to
60:49 preserve evidence uh the farthest right
60:52 wound so then we're looking at the
60:53 wounds they're terrible to look at just
60:56 terrible
60:57 uh there
60:58 were two applications of what weapon was
60:01 used so he thought in one of the the
60:04 furthest Rune to the right of her neck
60:07 he believed that there might have been
60:09 two passes that there was one pass they
60:12 did one pass and then did it again in
60:14 the same wound which brought him up to
60:16 the maybe
60:18 five um he said that there was a a
60:20 probable incision on the shoulder very
60:22 small and a minute abrasion below her
60:25 neck and there were no other observable
60:27 injuries uh the right side again Pro
61:30 possibly a two- pass
61:32 injury um the left the left is where a
61:35 lot of damage was done there's a gaping
61:38 wound and there is this thing where
61:40 there's five apparent marks which
61:42 originally during his deposition he
61:45 thought were uh from a serrated knife
61:50 potentially and he says that and I kind
61:53 of wrote like I drew a really terrible
61:55 crude sketch to post on Twitter and
61:57 people were like that sketch is horrible
61:59 or something like I'm like said it was
61:01 crude you want me to do so at that
61:06 point uh he claims that after the
61:10 deposition so this is in 2024 when he's
61:13 deposed by defense he said he was back
61:16 home in his
61:17 shop and he was thinking and thinking
61:20 about these like these these strange
61:22 five marks that kind of look like this
61:24 and I I realize it is a terrible picture
61:26 but but at least it gives you an idea
61:28 it's really not that bad like so those
61:30 five marks so that that kind of thing
62:33 that looks like a paral lips that's the
62:35 gaping wound and then right above it
62:37 were those five kind of marks so and
62:40 they're they're not they're abrasions at
62:43 best like they're not Cuts so it's like
62:47 like almost like if something was like
62:48 indented so he's like what could have
62:50 left that and he says I'm out at my
62:52 workbench and I see my box cutter so I'm
62:56 like wow he's like I think it might have
62:59 been a box cutter like the handle of a
62:00 box cutter you know sometimes they'll
62:01 have plastic handles and they'll have
62:03 those like plastic notches on them for
62:06 grip you know so he he ends up like just
62:09 flat out saying he thinks it could be a
62:11 box cutter that cause those
62:13 injuries which fit very very nicely into
62:17 uh the state's
62:19 case so he goes into the symptomatics uh
62:22 in terms of Abby obviously felt pain
62:25 initially there would be the fight or
62:27 flight that she was bleeding profusely
62:29 blood flowing heart will try to
63:31 compensate by pumping more blood
63:33 eventually you'll lose Consciousness and
63:35 then uh eventually you'll expider
63:41 um he said uh the range how long it may
63:45 have taken her to die he gave a
63:46 guesstimate of 5 to 10
63:48 minutes uh and then same with Abby
63:52 observed blood on her hand covering her
63:54 wound that's what he assumed it was from
63:56 which can slow it down he estimated that
63:59 that her death could have taken 5 to 10
63:01 minutes he said those are crude
63:03 estimates more likely five minutes due
63:05 to the three Moon three wounds uh he
63:08 said there's uh there was some cerebral
63:10 edema which is brain swelling 1500 grams
63:14 is the weight of a normal brain he says
63:15 hers was around 1700 grams uh that's
63:19 like it's not uncommon to have that with
63:21 strangling because of the blood loss uh
63:24 but it indicates survival for some
63:26 period of time uh time of death determin
63:29 the time of death and this is what the
64:30 news came out and reported incorrectly
64:33 he said this is not a Precision estimate
64:36 that I'm giving you right here and he
64:37 said that the condition so the way that
64:39 it was asked is that I think lutrell
64:42 said is the condition of the bodies
64:44 consistent with uh with her having died
64:48 40 to 41 hours before the autopsy he
64:51 said yes he ends it Rosie then comes out
64:54 all right I blew it like it took me an
64:57 hour or three I got I get like they're
64:60 going to call me for Skype you guys are
64:02 going to be so pissed go watch uh one of
64:05 the other lives I'll set up another live
64:08 I think I'm only G to be on Vinnie for
64:09 half an hour and then I'll I'll jump
64:11 back on because I'm I'm pretty I'm
64:14 pretty close to like I'm just getting
64:16 started on the cross of Rosie so it's a
64:18 good time to take a break I will start
64:21 another live um I love all you guys and
64:24 I'll be back tonight promise I'm not
64:25 going to Di on you uh but yeah go watch
64:28 some other stuff everybody that
65:30 was um please if you had questions that
65:33 I that I did not get to them and you
65:35 come back to the next live please ask
65:36 him again I will get to them thank you
65:39 for those that have uh made wonderful
65:42 donations to me I'm very appreciative uh
65:45 I love you guys I'll see you at about
65:47 10:05 10:05 is going to be the time all
65:51 right ciao
65:22 you where you go
65:26 TR