## TUGS and Religion

Post by Jack Roper » Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:08 pm

....or BDSM and spirituality
I noticed a lot of the great souls on here say they are devout followers of any number of faiths and beliefs. That’s wonderful for all of you….and, I was wondering exactly how you reconcile your faith, or spirituality, with your interest in TUGS?
My impression has always been that while you can be completely accepting of other people’s indiocyncracies in the realm of TUGS there does come a point where it seems to be in conflict with religion or spirituality, especially when it comes to torture and S & M. Clearly, anyone unused to TUGS talk and interests coming upon this site with a devout religious background would probably feel like we are in the realm of “sin” or perversion at best.
So, the subject for this “Jump in the Fire” is "how do you personally reconcile TUGS and religion?"
Jack

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by drawscore » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:29 pm

TUGs do not necessarily translate into BDSM or torture, both of which I would have qualms about. I think back to my younger days, when, as a boy, my friends and I tied each other up frequently as part of games, dares, challenges, etc. There was never anything even remotely torturous, sexual, or sensual about it. There is a huge difference between kids playing "cops and robbers," or "cowboys and Indians," where getting tied is part of a game and no one gets hurt, and the more sexual aspects of TUGs. And torture or physical harm is always wrong and inappropriate unless both parties agree to it, and are both of legal age. Using that standard, I don't have any problem reconciling TUGs with my faith.
Drawscore

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by skybird137 » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:32 am

I'm sure that some religious groups object to 'Torture and BDSM' because it might remind people of Christian history when this sort of action wasn't used for pleasure.
It wasn't sinful when they used these methods to get what they wanted.
Calling Fifty Shades of Grey a Bondage Story is like calling Titanic an Iceberg Movie...
http://skybird137.deviantart.com

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:27 am

Unlike Drawscore, BDSM and torture (all consensual) was a large component of TUGs for me growing up and afterwards. I don't really know about the spirituality or religious beliefs of my various TUGs partners of those days, as it was not something we discussed much if at all. For my own part, I was raised Catholic and I was as devout and religious as I imagine a person ever gets, and was somewhat troubled by my strong liking for such things as being tied up and dominated by my cousins and friends. One reason I read the Bible from cover to cover when I was only twelve was to see what the Bible actually says about TUGs; it wasn't much help however... especially with its condemnation of homosexuality. Since sex was a definite component of TUGs in my early to mid adolescence this was troubling to me.
Eventually I simply adjusted my own beliefs so that my belief in God did not conflict with my love for TUGs, by deciding that the Bible was NOT the literal word for God (the evidence for which is non-existent anyway) and that if God was so down on TUGs and BDSM He wouldn't have made it possible for them to be so enjoyable for me. After all, I've never wanted to hurt anyone else, and God knows there's certainly a lot of NON-consensual crap of all kinds going on in the Bible! I prefer to think that the real God is more understanding than the one portrayed in the Bible is anyway; the Biblical God seeming to have no sympathy for human limitations or frailties and strangely for a Creator no understanding of human psychology anyway.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Jack Roper » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:46 pm

By way of further exploration of this topic, here is my two cents worth.
TUGS are on a continuum with more advanced forms of bondage, discipline, sadism and masochism, being perhaps the most innocent form imaginable. What all forms of BDSM have in common is submission, which is also a common denominator in religious literature: submission and surrender. Jesus said “to turn the other cheek” (Luke 6:29), “Islam” actually means surrender in Arabic—surrender to God’s will, or in today’s psychological parlance, surrender of one’s ego to a higher Self.
Of course, desire is frowned upon by most religious traditions, going so far as complete self-abnegation, or self-torment as in the Catholic flailings of the penitent such as St. Ignatius of Loyola. The seven deadly sins were mostly avoidance mechanisms of strong emotions and passions. The Buddha saw desire as at the root of human suffering.
All of this denigration of desire is supposed to bring one closer to unconditional love, which can also be taken as surrendering one’s own self for the object of that love. And this brings up the connection of submission, desire and love, and its offshoot BDSM involving dominance and submission. To an outsider watching a BDSM scene, even a strong TUGS experience, they would probably see outright violence and the infliction of pain-- and find it abhorrent, which, of course overlooks the obvious consensual angle in most such play: the safe words, the clear limits imposed mostly by the bottom (most of the time), the trust implicit in such clear-cut surrender of one’s body to another soul.
Most interesting in all of this is that such BDSM practice can actually increase the player’s mindfulness within the role-play involved. Such play can also increase “runner’s high” type endorphins, negating, or overriding any subjective pain involved.
BDSM play can also bring into conscious awareness those avenues of human suffering we are only dimly aware of “through a glass darkly,” as St. Paul said. And to resist such feelings can only drive them further into one’s subconscious—only to have to confront them again and again.
So, in a strange perhaps paradoxical way, BDSM play may well increase a player’s awareness of suffering, creating more compassion for those who suffer and increase the desire to end all suffering, which is the apex of religious knowledge, or so it seems to me.

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:08 pm

Being a masochist myself I naturally find your notion rather appealing to me, Jack.
I don't know how valid your reasoning actually is (I'm hardly objective) but I certainly see no reason to doubt it!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Kyle » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:04 pm

I don't really see a conflict between Christianity and tie-up games at face value. When you get down to it, what is really the difference between a childhood game where someone gets "tied to the stake" or a game where someone simply fakes it? Even as adults, there's nothing inherently wrong with someone just being tied up. The problem is most people that do this kind of thing as adults, and sometimes even as teenagers, take it to levels which are, at best, questionable when it comes to Christian moral values. Even those of us who developed the interest from childhood will often see it in a sexual nature as adults, and just about everyone who has an interest in it as adults only will see it purely sexual.
Done in a marital context, I really see little to nothing that would be sinful in any way, so long as the husband and wife both consent. Forced bondage is a bit of a different issue altogether and is always wrong. But truthfully, even unmarried adults could theoretically enjoy a good tie-up game without any lines being crossed. It's just hard for a lot of people to do. It's also not something I'd advertise much in public, especially in church, due to people's thoughts on the subject. And frankly, I can't say I blame them for thinking that.

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by KP Presents » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:50 am

Without launching into a heavy Biblical discussion, complete with references, there is nothing in the bible that proscribes tie-up games. There is plenty that speaks about repsect for others, and not seeking to physically harm or hurt others, so I tend more to the BD than the SM side of BDSM, but it's also a question of choice. We have been given free will, and God calsl su to follow him and his teachings to gain freedom, not to lose it.
Read stories of ordinary women in distress at http://www.kppresents.com

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Games_Bond » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:26 am

Truly, a question I had not given much (any) thought to before, but a good question nonetheless. So, I am into TUGs on the one hand... (and, let's go the whole way in and say I'm into BDSM), on the other hand, I am a Christian. But before I further this discussion, I must admit that I cannot really be described as a "devout" Christian. The last time I attended Church was for a funeral, and my appearances at Church over the last few years have been few and far between. But then, there is more than one reason for that. From the ages of about ten to fourteen (I can't remember exactly when), I was an atheist. I then turned back to God, although whether I turned back to religion is up for debate. Anyway, I think I might have to reconcile my somewhat diluted beliefs in the same way a "devout" Christian would.
I'll start with 8 words from my first paragraph: on the other hand, I am a Christian. If I really put a lot of thought into it, I might have to repeat those eight words when talking about many of my beliefs and actions. For example:
I believe humans evolved from primates; on the other hand, I am a Christian.
I don't believe in punishing children for misdeeds by beating them; on the other hand, I am a Christian.
I am against slavery; on the other hand, I am a Christian.
The point being, strict, hard-line religious beliefs can be made to be incompatible with just about anything we do with our lives. BDSM is not an exception in this case. Most things that are entirely natural and normal for a human to experience can be taken as a perversion according to some theists. And as Stephen Fry says: The Catholic Church is obsessed with sex. (I am not a Catholic, by the way). So let's broaden Mr. Fry's words to encompass Christianity. The Church is very big on telling us what we can and can't do sexually. But I'm going to make my own mind up on that I'm afraid. The Church is against the use of condoms, but as far as I'm concerned, if God had wanted me not to wear condoms, then he shouldn't have allowed HIV/AIDS into the world.
As far as I am aware, there is no gospel that relates to the practices of BDSM. (And I will trust Jason to have thoroughly researched the Bible for me). I do have one thing up my sleeve that "devout" followers don't: I can reject scripture I don't like. Said that bluntly it may seem as if I am making up the rules as I go along, but in actual fact what I mean is that I am a follower of God but not necessarily of the doctrine that mankind claims is the word of God, which I can't verify. What is clear from the Bible is that God was very big on appearing before his followers and telling them exactly what he wanted done; therefore, I'm pretty sure if God has a specific plan in mind for me, he will tell me himself - he won't leave it to some messenger that may or may not pass it on.
BDSM then, is probably fine in my religion, although if you're going to round it off with intercourse then the couple in question should be married (according to doctrine). Before it gets to that stage, it may be a useful tool in exploring trust issues and communication that can lead to the love that is necessary for marriage. Therefore in theory the Church would probably be OK with it. I reckon, like I reckon for many things, if you're a Christian, your Minister is probably okay with it to the extent that he or she does not want to know what you do with your life in your bedroom - even if the establishment does speak about it in generalised tones.

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Jason Toddman » Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:14 pm

> Games_Bond wrote:
> As far as I am aware, there is no gospel that relates to the practices of BDSM. (And I will trust Jason to have thoroughly researched the Bible for me).

Is that why I did it? I thought it was for myself.
You are correct however; there is NO gospel directly relating to BDSM (not counting though that refer to it in a non-consensual way in various incidents and analogies, which I do not think count). There are, however, some quotes related to some of the other things my friends and I did together, and *that* was the sticky part for *me*.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:22 am

> george1909 wrote:religion seems to have a universal hangup about homosexuality but not BDSM

Universal only in modern Judeo-Christian religions (which includes Islam). Ancient religions other than Judaism had no problem with homosexuality (and often encouraged it), and many modern ones outside of Judeo-Christian tradition either do not have one either or are less rigid about it than Islam, Judaism, or Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Jack Roper » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:27 pm

While I find seeking Biblical justification to be rather odd and constricting, here are a few examples of such explorations of justifying BDSM in a Christian context. Go figure.
Where in the Bible will we find verses that support BDSM? Here are some examples (this is from Bea Amor, a Yahoo contribting network member, her source is at the bottom):
Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, 23 for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as also Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 to make her holy, cleansing her in the washing of water by the word. (Ephesians 5:22-26)
Paul wrote to the Corinthians, I beat my body and bring it into submission, for fear that by any means, that after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected. (1 Corinthians 9:27) (A justification for flogging?)
29 Let him submit absolutely; there may yet be hope. 30 Let him offer his cheek to the one who strikes it, and receive his fill of insults. (Lamentations 3:29-30) (Some indication that humiliation play and discipline is not sinful either?)
8 If people are bound with chains and trapped by the cords of affliction, 9 God tells them what they have done and how arrogantly they have transgressed. 10 He opens their ears to correction and insists they repent from iniquity. 11 If they serve Him obediently, they will end their days in prosperity and their years in happiness. (Job 36:8-11) (Bondage in a Biblical context showing the husband that this can be used to make his wife more obedient?)
5 My son, do not take the Lord's discipline lightly, or faint when you are reproved by Him; 6 for the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and punishes every son whom He receives; He does it for our benefit, so that we can share His holiness. 11 No discipline seems enjoyable at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it yields the fruit of peace and righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:5-11) (These verses show the benefits of discipline and also show how it can be used in a D/s relationship.)
All the Bible verses were quoted from the following source: http://www.sexinchrist.com/submission.html

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:59 pm

I don't think those verses reflect BDSM in particular so much as they do submission to authority in general; something the Bible is rife with. In fact, although the Founding Fathers of the US held the Bible in high regard, most of the writers of the BIble (or at least the Old Testament) would likely have viewed the notion of the American Revolution with shock and extreme horror and thoroughly condemned our rebellion against the British crown. None of the examples you cited are particularly specific to BDSM at all, Jack; though I suppose they can be applied to it, I very much doubt the writers of those verses had BDSM in mind either. Slavery and male domination in general are far more likely.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Jack Roper » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:40 pm

I agree Jason, these are not BDSM specific. However, if you have a slave I suppose you will have to restrain them somehow, ergo: bondage in some form.
Women are made to submit all over the Bible, so the tendency towards masochism probably goes back thousands of years, into pre-Bible times to cave people days. Whee!
There are fine lines of distinction all over the place in this subject, as there is in many areas of human fraility and endeavor.

### Re: TUGS and Religion

Post by Jason Toddman » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:50 am

Those fine lines may be why BDSM is never condemned in the bible. fter all, look how many gruesome and graphic (and often fatal) accounts of it there in in there, such as the story (in Judges) of a woman named Jael, who killed a guest sleeping in her tent by driving a nail through his head! How - but was considered a heroine because he had been leading an army against her people but had already lost the battle and was fleeing. Really nothing more than an assassination then. How... 'inspiring'... to read that story when you're only twelve years old (as *I* was)!!!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...