How is Colonialism different from empire?

Postby Chris12 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:58 am

Western Europe seems to have a rather unique view of its own history. I get the feeling its frowned upon to be proud of any period of western European history that takes place after 1500. The most common sound we hear is that we were all just so awful in those days, references to things like ''VOC mentality'' are sneered at, statue's of colonial captains are removed, institutions like the east India trading company and the VOC are giving more people the image of slavery and genocide then of multinationals and seafaring and celebrations about persons or institutions related to the era are generally met with a decently sized group wondering why we aren't mentioning slavery more often even though we tend to focus on that much more then anything else these days. Actual involvement in slavery doesn't seem to be a requirement for these group to complain either, weirdly enough.

With an upcoming movie about a Dutch naval hero that was supposed to have very mild views on slavery attracting slavery related controversy i'm starting to think its getting a bit masochistic.

Why does western Europe have this unique desire to look away, if not down on its history? How are their overseas empires any different then the Roman empire, the Ottoman territories of Europe or any other empire this world has seen.

I rarely hear an Italian or a Greek lament the conquest of Rome and Alexander and I'm pretty sure the Mongol's don't look away in shame at the mention of the Mongol empire. You could argue its because Colonialism is much closer to our time but so is Napoleon who's person and empire are still looked upon with pride by the French and the Sovjet union is still sorely missed by a sizable group in Russia.

The feeling that a nations prior success, even if it came at the cost of the vanquished being something to feel ashamed of seems to be a largely Western European thing and I can't understand why.

Any thoughts on the matter?

Re: How is Colonialism different from empire?

Postby chadmc90 » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:02 pm

Yea, I see what you mean. Even here over in America, those centuries are portrayed more negatively. For example, let's take hitler in world war II. I bet if you ask anybody in the world their opinion if the man, it will be along the lines of evil, cruel, sadistic, and tyrannical. But, you certainly don't hear people talk about barbaric rulers such as Grngis Khan, or even the Egyptian's slavery system.

But the key difference, which you pointed out, is time. People still have that fresh on their minds, so it's not "old history" yet. On down the centuries, the opinions on these events will likey change.

Hope that makes sense.
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Re: How is Colonialism different from empire?

Postby Kyle » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:40 pm

I'll be honest, I really thought it was just Americans who promoted feeling ashamed of their past.

A lot of this comes from the fact most people have a very limited view of history. All they know is the white man killed and enslaved and slaughtered all the other oppressed people of the world. Most people seem legitimately unaware there was ever slavery practiced anywhere outside the Americas, or that racism has caused conflicts all over the world since ancient times, etc. Empires in other parts of the world are passed off as more "legitimate" despite being achieved in pretty much the same way.

How many people are aware of the Barbary slave trade in northern Africa around the 17th-18th centuries? Not counting the revolution itself, the Barbary states were the very first people the United States had armed conflict with (besides perhaps some small skirmishes with Native Americans). The Barbary states raided coastal villages of Europe and killed and took people as slaves, to the point some European coastal towns were decimated (and the US got involved because they took a few American ships). I don't know how it is in Europe, but here in the US, you will hear almost nothing of this. I doubt 1/8 of Americans today could tell you a damn thing about it. European nations finally stormed in and took over during the 19th century, a fact which is better known to people because of some of the things Europeans did in Africa, which shouldn't exactly be ignored. The last countries in the world to outlaw slavery were countries in northwestern Africa. It has been so recent there are still many people alive in that region who were legally slaves.

It's not exactly wrong to say Europeans and some European descendants in the Americas, Australia, and other places did some bad things, and had a very far-reaching effect compared to most others. It's also not exactly wrong to note Europeans have done nothing that hasn't been done by others. Many of the people who Europeans conquered had gotten to where they were by conquering someone else in the first place.

I do think some of it is because of how far in the past things happened. The Roman Empire (which I would've thought qualified as Western Europe) was so long ago it's not something people feel close to anymore, even though it does have a lasting effect on Europe today. Slavery in the Americas is more recent

Probably the easiest way to sum it up: if your description of someone in the past is either completely positive or completely negative, I will just about guarantee you you've oversimplified their history.

Re: How is Colonialism different from empire?

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:20 pm

Chris12 wrote:Western Europe seems to have a rather unique view of its own history.

Not really. The Japanese have a similar view of their own attempt at colonialism in the 20th century. This is one reason why monster movies (particularly giant kajiru demolishing Tokyo yet again) are so popular and ruthless alien invasion/conquest/extermination of innocent populations was a common theme in their anime for a long time. If anything, their self-nagativity (at least thru most of the rest of the 20th century) was much greater than anything we have experienced even here in America.
When i was in Germany, the Germans I talked with felt the same way about their own role in WWII at least. For the rest though, I think it's in part that we have a much greater awareness of history than our ancestors did, and thanks to TV and the Internet we're more experienced with feeling empathy for people outside our own particular little corner of the world than we ever were before.
In one way I think it's a good thing; people who feel self-conscious about such this are less likely to let themselves get dragged into another war... though we have a ways to go while short-sighted, narrowly-idealistic idiots continue to run our governments and zealots kill innocent people just because they believe differently from themselves. Would that the Muslims felt as self-conscious about their history, this might be a happier world.
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Re: How is Colonialism different from empire?

Postby Chris12 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:57 am

I thought Japan had the opposite problem, being oblivious to the idea that what they did was wrong.

Re: How is Colonialism different from empire?

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:44 am

Chris12 wrote:I thought Japan had the opposite problem, being oblivious to the idea that what they did was wrong.

In official government circles, somewhat yes. Among the actual populace, not really. The Japanese have a different culture than we do and have what we consider strange attitudes about some things still (such as gender and racial equality), but Japanese people have as well-developed a conscience as European and European descended people do. Though of course I've never been to Japan and so every Japanese person I ever discussed the matter with was an American citizen (unlike the Germans i met, who were on their own home turf), but most had themselves had been to Japan and this is what they told me. Though again too this was decades ago now and things may have changed since then.
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