## Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:58 am

I bring up the subject of Christians and bondage not because I want to preach or condemn, but because it is an important topic. I would ask that nobody use this topic as a launching pad to preach or bash.
I am a Christian, serious about professing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, so for years I felt that liking being tied up was a dirty little secret. Then, I did some investigating. I even brought it up to a Christian counselor.
The counselor surprisingly did not object, although he did find it a little out of the ordinary (it probably is!). We discussed it and found that, for me, it is a challenge and a release. In short, people engage in a variety of challenging sports and other activities, so this is no different really. What's more ridiculous: being tied up and trying to escape or jumping off the New River Gorge bridge tethered only by a bungee rope (nothing wrong with bungee jumping if you like that, but I'd prefer to be tied up thank you!)?
There are boundaries, however. The Bible teaches clearly that we are to not just to avoid but to "flee" sexual immorality, so sexual bondage and sex outside of marriage is clearly wrong for the Christian. Boy-girl bondage is dangerous territory as well, unless it is part of a group game. I really can't think of a scenario where an un-married Christian man and woman would be non-sexually or sexually tying each other up and not crossing any boundaries. I have read recently underage boys and girls hooking up on this site for at least mildly sexual bondage experiences. This is way out of bounds for a Christian and may even be illegal in the United States in some circumstances. It is certainly dangerous. I would hate to be the moderators of this site if such an encounter went bad and resulted in harm or a rape. Can you say lawsuit?
I found a good treatise on the subject of bondage in Christian marriage at the Marriage Bed website here: http://site.themarriagebed.com/whats-ok ... s-not#bdsm .
I was attracted to this Stories of Tie Up Games TUG website because it advertises that true "stories should be about games that do not have intimate or sexual overtones." There is a seperate section for more "intimate" stories and I do not go there. I find it offensive when nudity, sex, and/or sexual perversion (this could be homosexual or heterosexual) is depicted in the part of the site which is supposed to be free from that. I am thankful that this site is well moderated and would ask that the moderators vigilantly keep in mind that some of us object when sexual bondage and nudity find their way into areas not labeled specifically as such.
I would be interested in hearing what others think, especially Christians. I suspect some of the issues I bring up are mostly irrelevant or un-interesting to non-Christians. If this subject doesn't interest you, then don't respond, but please respect those of us who are interested. Thank you.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Elusive_lady » Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:50 am

After lurking for some time, I joined just now, and found a whole new section...and what an interesting post!
Ron, I agree with most of what you wrote, except the part about sexual bondage being immoral. Even the site you linked us to judges it to be acceptable to God within marriage.
Outside of marriage, it is dangerous, if you want to be a virgin when you get married. Not to give anyone a pass, Christians do have sex before getting married.
I also think--actually, I know from experience--that it is possible to play tie up games without it becoming sexual. If you're looking for something sexual, and you play suh games, you're not going to be pleased with the results, but if you just want to see what it's like to be bound, or try to escape, or something like this, it can be done and is harmless.
Teens playing tie-up games do take a risk, but if they have the facts, and know exactly what they're getting into up front, the risk is lessened, I think.
Yes, I am a Christian, and yes, I enjoy both bondage and Tugs. There is a difference.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:30 am

> Elusive_lady wrote:After lurking for some time, I joined just now, and found a whole new section...and what an interesting post!
> Ron, I agree with most of what you wrote, except the part about sexual bondage being immoral. Even the site you linked us to judges it to be acceptable to God within marriage.
> Outside of marriage, it is dangerous, if you want to be a virgin when you get married. Not to give anyone a pass, Christians do have sex before getting married.
> I also think--actually, I know from experience--that it is possible to play tie up games without it becoming sexual. If you're looking for something sexual, and you play suh games, you're not going to be pleased with the results, but if you just want to see what it's like to be bound, or try to escape, or something like this, it can be done and is harmless.
> Teens playing tie-up games do take a risk, but if they have the facts, and know exactly what they're getting into up front, the risk is lessened, I think.
> Yes, I am a Christian, and yes, I enjoy both bondage and Tugs. There is a difference.

I am glad you replied, Elusive Lady, because I was worried I might be mis-understood. I agree 100% that sexual bondage within marriage is OK. I guess my wording was a bit awkward. I am sorry my wording was confusing, but not surprised My fault.
There really is nothing in your reply I disagree with. Thanks!

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by LastOfTheAmericanGirls » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:04 am

I see what you're getting at, but the main place where I find contention with your arguments is where you state:
"I really can't think of a scenario where an un-married Christian man and woman would be non-sexually or sexually tying each other up and not crossing any boundaries. I have read recently underage boys and girls hooking up on this site for at least mildly sexual bondage experiences. This is way out of bounds for a Christian and may even be illegal in the United States in some circumstances. It is certainly dangerous. I would hate to be the moderators of this site if such an encounter went bad and resulted in harm or a rape. Can you say lawsuit?"
Now if I am to understand the post you are referring to, as far as we know, they were just kissing. There is nothing wrong with kissing, nearly all teenagers engage in the act of kissing, and the Christian faith is not against kissing. Then you factor the bondage into the equation. I fail to see how you made the jump to the idea that bondage is sexually immoral. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything against bondage, and the Bible gets fairly specific about what it states as sexually immoral (re: Leviticus). So if they were just kissing, why should it matter if one of them was tied up while doing so? Furthermore, their acts were certainly not illegal in meeting up. Also, you can't deem it "out of bounds" for a Christian to meet up with someone they meet on the internet if there are Christian dating sites promoting just that. Also, what if they're not even Christian at all?
Finally, the first sentence of that paragraph, about how you doubt that a man and a woman could tie each other up in a non-sexual fashion. That is almost as bad as stating that boys and girls can't be just friends. Yes, there is, and always will be something inherently sexual about bondage and that loss of control that follows with it. But that's the way it is with nearly everything in life. That's like stating boys and girls can't go swimming together without anything sexual happening because the boy will be driven mad by the site of the girl's exposed flesh. As a teenage girl I have engaged in bondage activities with a teenage boy where nothing remotely sexual happened. It is definitely possible.
They used to tie you up!
It's a living
I didn't recognize you without the handcuffs

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:48 am

Kissing and tied up. Pretty erotic if you ask me. Even if two teenagers could or would do such a thing and maintain control, hormones being what they are, it is a tinder box for eroticism. Paul says to flee from sexual immorality. This is dancing way too close.
"Yes, there is, and always will be something inherently sexual about bondage". My point exactly. For the Christian, the limits for non-marital male-female bondage should be pretty strict. The standard is and should be higher for the serious Christian.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by JohDizzle1995 » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:57 pm

The problem I see with Christianity and this sort of sexual nature, it balances out on what you see as sexually immoral. I, personally, count deliberative harm of your partner during sex or bondage to be immoral. However, I often fail to find any definite examples in the bible about bondage as a whole, I don't think it is particularly covered. The bible is however, notorious for dropping hints as to what is right and wrong when it comes to such sensitive matters. It doesn't skip over the issue all together, but neither will it answer it particularly well.
If you want to further your knowledge on the teachings of sex and relationships in the bible. Their are numerous forums, quotes, studies, discussions and talks on the subject. You need to simply find bondage related ones and check it out. I would also recommend that you find the bible quotes and teachings, that the people in the forums etc are referencing and read them yourself and derive your belief from that.
On the subject of whether minors viewing that is a danger. I don't believe that this forum holds more danger over any other, but yes i do agree with you that people meeting each other is dangerous, and every single precaution should be taken for anyone who would like to meet. And many minor's haven't come to this site for looking at explicit material as well, (not that you bought this up, I just wanted to mention it) I personally came here from curiosity, and to possibly have my worries and query's answered. For which the site has been very helpfull.
Well, I hope I helped.
Happy new year

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Kyle » Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:10 pm

I can't for the life of me see anything wrong with tying someone up (or being tied up) in and of itself, assuming of course everyone involved wants to be involved. Of course there are a lot of things that can go wrong in a hurry with it if people aren't careful. If bondage, or tie-ups, or whatever you call them, are inherently sexual in nature then as a believer you should avoid them with anyone you're not married to. But if it's an innocent tie-up game I don't see a problem with it. You just have to be careful and know your own limits and have self-control. For that reason it probably is better for many believers to avoid tie-ups to avoid opening that door in the first place.
The real issue here is purity, and avoiding anything that could tempt you into impurity.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by MissKidnapper » Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:00 am

I myself am a christian and while I am involved in TUGs I only ever tie up my friends and they are female as well. And seeing as my friends and I are straight, I don't feel any danger of things ever becoming sexual in our games.
As for bondage with the oposit sex, well I plan to save that for after I am married.
I prefer stories and art depicting bondage that aren't sexual, mostly because my main target for tie-ups are females and it kind of ruins it for me because I don't think of other women in such a way, I only like tying them up.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by bindKelly » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:53 am

If Eric and I are the teenagers getting discussed here, we're really not doing a whole lot more than kissing when he ties me up, and most definatly not doing anything illegal!
We play bondage games at home, and with my parents in the house, we're not really gonna take any chances with going too far, lol.
But, yeah, getting tied up by guys is way different than from getting tied by girls, and I can see things going farther than they should if you don't trust the guy.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:01 am

I think I agree with most of what you all have to say. Even you, bindkelly. BTW bindkelly, I had read your posts but others too. I think minors need to be careful. It's good to know there were others in the house. Are they OK with you doing this?

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by bindKelly » Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:31 pm

> ron wrote:I think I agree with most of what you all have to say. Even you, bindkelly. BTW bindkelly, I had read your posts but others too. I think minors need to be careful. It's good to know there were others in the house. Are they OK with you doing this?

They're ok with it, as long as I just get tied up at home and when one of them is there (no, not in the room!).
btw, Happy New Year to everyone!

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:05 am

> bindKelly wrote:

> > ron wrote:I think I agree with most of what you all have to say. Even you, bindkelly. BTW bindkelly, I had read your posts but others too. I think minors need to be careful. It's good to know there were others in the house. Are they OK with you doing this?

> They're ok with it, as long as I just get tied up at home and when one of them is there (no, not in the room!).
> btw, Happy New Year to everyone!

I would be most concerned if you were meeting people on line and doing tie up games by yourselves.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by MissTieMeUp » Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:48 pm

I too am very devout but enjoy my TUG's in a marital setting (only b/c hey trust factor is key for me as well). Am divorced but won't experiment outside that bond but I do think that TUG"s kink is healthy and if enjoyed between two people who have that trust, will keep them both happy and faithful for years! hey compatibility in the intimate area is also very key.
Rainbow rope & a white cleeve gag are my BFF's

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Harold » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:09 pm

Sometimes churches stage the events on the first Easter and that may mean guys in only loincloths may be tied to crosses. In the one I saw, one of the "thieves" wasn't tied well enough and had to work to maintain an appearance he was tied until that scene was over.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Rope_guy » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:18 pm

To give my perspective, conservative Christians are antsy about anything that is suggestive of sexual activity. Dancing between men and women used to be frowned upon and even outlawed, but is now widely acceptable to everyone except the most conservative Christians. I recently read a tract put out by a Baptist group in the early 1950s for young people that explicitly says no unchaperoned dating and no physical contact between genders outside of a handshake. Mingling between the sexes on public beaches and pools was frowned upon, because everyone would be wearing scanty bathing suits. The wearing of shorts and slacks by girls was called "immodest". The tract even said that jazz and swing music was immoral, partially because jazz allegedly had its start in the brothels of that wicked city of New Orleans (not really true). This was published before rock-n-roll music came out, and I know that music was condemned for years.
As you can see, attitudes have changed, and all but the most conservative Christians now accept what that tract frowned on. The problem with today's culture is that sexuality is displayed everywhere. The portrayal of bondage was okay in the popular culture of the early and mid-20th Century because it was portrayed in a non-sexual manner, often in a damsel-in-distress setting. Many Christians then took no issue with it, and I found that, for example, some Christian camps in the '50s and '60s even played games involving tying up such as capture the flag or staged eating contests which the participants had their hands tied behind their backs.
One reason that bondage was not an issue in the Bible because it was commonly used to restrain prisoners in those days. Bondage as a sexual act is a fairly recent development, probably going no further back than the 19th Century.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Elusive_lady » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:15 pm

I'm pretty sure even very conservative Christians with an interest in bondage practice it
They may not visit bondage-themed websites, or discuss their interests freely outside the bedroom, and they may limit their activities to part of their married sex life, but I'm pretty sure even they practice it

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by KP Presents » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:01 am

Wouldn't surprise me in the least, elusive_lady.
Some of you may know this, but I need to state up front I've been a Christian for thirty years now, and seek to serve God with all my heart and soul.
I also write stories in a variety of styles, some of which may not be deemed appropriate by the more conservative Christian movement. Having said that, as I read the Scriptures there is nothing to prohibit the practice of safe, consensual bondage as part of a loving relationship, so long as it is within the law of the land. As others have said, it is when it goes outside those bounds that you have a problem.
Am I condemned for writing my stories? I don't believe so, although confession is interesting at times...
Read stories of ordinary women in distress at http://www.kppresents.com

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by dreadnaught3200 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:36 am

I'm very glad this topic has been brought up. I first discovered Canuck's old website and later (by extension) this one when I started searching the internet for answers. I wondered the standard things of course: "Why do I want to be tied up?" "Are there more people like me out there or am I a lone freak?". But I also wondered if what I was doing was biblically immoral. I couldn't bring myself to talk to my pastor about it, so I essentially searched for answers on my own. My initial results weren't hopeful, considering that most bondage material on the internet is awash with sex. But as I started digging a little bit deeper I realized the two are not necessarily incompatible.
I agree with those who say that there is something inherently sexual about bondage. I think that's undeniable. But then again, there's something inherently sexual about a great many things that all but the most stalwart Christians would consider acceptable.
The question isn't if bondage itself is sexually immoral. (At least I don't think so) The question is: Will bondage lead you to do something sexually immoral? If a guy and girl play a TUG, they will be putting themselves into a somewhat sexually charged situation. However, that doesn't mean that it is unavoidable to act on those urges. Some people may find the temptation irresistible, others may not. If you are on of those people who is blessed with the fortitude to repel sexual temptation, then I'd say: "Go ahead. Have your fun." If you don't think you can, then it's best that you don't put yourself in that situation.
Oh and by the way:

> Rope_guy wrote: One reason that bondage was not an issue in the Bible because it was commonly used to restrain prisoners in those days. Bondage as a sexual act is a fairly recent development, probably going no further back than the 19th Century.

That's not quite true. The history of what we call bondage goes way back. Take the famous Marquis de Sade for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade However, sexuality on the whole was not written about candidly until quite recently. So it's understandable that there isn't much material available on the subject pre-19th century.
There's a permanent tension in music isn't there? On one hand you have three chords, you know, four four and three chords. Then there's the people like me, who say "Well, why don't we add a fourth chord and put it in five four?" - Bill Bruford

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Elusive_lady » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:45 am

Another thing....for the longest time, sex was considered something a bit dirty. Women weren't supposed to like it, we were supposed to look at it as a duty we had to "endure' for our husbands. And bondage itself was seen as pretty sick.
I was talking to one of our younger members yesterday, and we noted that it's only been recently where bondage has become mainstream, and is now so common it's safe to assume that most couples under 30 have at least considered trying it. Again, in the Christian community, it no longer has the stigma it once did (although outside of marriage it's still frowned upon).

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:51 pm

> Terry wrote:Doesn't the bible have a lot of bondage anyway? It always talks about the "house of bondage", etc whatever that means?

The term bondage is often used in the Bible to refer to sins which hold you captive and keep you from being free to love God and love others. The Bible seems to me to be fairly silent on the subject of tie up games for fun, as long as they don't become an obsession or true fetish. Since it is silent, I would interpret tie up games as being OK as long as healthy boundaries are observed.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Jack Roper » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:34 pm

Perhaps reading the Bible literally is a form of bondage in itself. And certainly any number of Christians have emulated the Passion scenes, what with self-flaggelation and being hoisted onto a Cross every Easter. I have a book called "Bondage of the Mind: How Old Testament Fundamentalism Shackles the Mind and Enslaves the Spirit," by R. D. Gold. The title says it all. And St. Paul was one of the most repressed individuals in the New Testament, whose practices have been carried forward by the Catholic Church unto this day.
Here is a quote from another book: "How to Attain Enlightenment" by James Swartz, that seems relevant : "it is not clear who wrote the Old Testament, but it is a good example of truth and ignorance sitting side by side. God, 'The Eternal,' kindly leads the Israelites out of the darkness. However, when Moses asks him what to do about another tribe that is getting in the way of their march to the 'land of milk and honey,' which is a symbol for freedom, he says to kill them. Evidently, the Eternal is an 'us and them' kind of god."
Re: so called perversions such as homosexuality, I challenge anyone, Christian, Jew or Atheist, to find one word of condemnation of homosexuality by Jesus in the New Testament. If you base your life on any unquestioned belief sytem you will undoubtedly find yourself in psychological and spiritual bondage. While this may appear comforting in an "us vs. them" kind of way, it remains one of the worst forms of bondage imaginable.
Playing TUG's doesn't hold a candle to such ignorance, in my humble opinion.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:39 am

> Jack Roper wrote:Perhaps reading the Bible literally is a form of bondage in itself. And certainly any number of Christians have emulated the Passion scenes, what with self-flaggelation and being hoisted onto a Cross every Easter. I have a book called "Bondage of the Mind: How Old Testament Fundamentalism Shackles the Mind and Enslaves the Spirit," by R. D. Gold. The title says it all. And St. Paul was one of the most repressed individuals in the New Testament, whose practices have been carried forward by the Catholic Church unto this day.
> Here is a quote from another book: "How to Attain Enlightenment" by James Swartz, that seems relevant : "it is not clear who wrote the Old Testament, but it is a good example of truth and ignorance sitting side by side. God, 'The Eternal,' kindly leads the Israelites out of the darkness. However, when Moses asks him what to do about another tribe that is getting in the way of their march to the 'land of milk and honey,' which is a symbol for freedom, he says to kill them. Evidently, the Eternal is an 'us and them' kind of god."
> Re: so called perversions such as homosexuality, I challenge anyone, Christian, Jew or Atheist, to find one word of condemnation of homosexuality by Jesus in the New Testament. If you base your life on any unquestioned belief sytem you will undoubtedly find yourself in psychological and spiritual bondage. While this may appear comforting in an "us vs. them" kind of way, it remains one of the worst forms of bondage imaginable.
> Playing TUG's doesn't hold a candle to such ignorance, in my humble opinion.

This was not intended as a critique of Christianity. I disagree on almost every point, but we can agree to disagree. When one reads interpretations of the Bible designed to allow you to hear what you want to hear, you probably will. As I said in the initial post, I did not intend for this topic to be a launching pad for preaching or bashing. I did not bring up fetishes to impune homosexuals, although I could respond at legnth to your challenge if I wanted to stray down that land mine laden rabbit trail. For the Christian who takes his or her faith seriously, it is important to consider where or if tie up games fit, and if so to what extent they are appropriate. I, for one, am not a Christian mired in Old Testament legalism, although Jesus did say he came not to condemn the law but to fulfill it.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:41 am

"it is not clear who wrote the Old Testament,"
BTW, I know personally scholars of the Old Testament. This statement is false. There are parts which are debated.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Kyle » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:08 pm

> ron wrote:

> > Jack Roper wrote:Perhaps reading the Bible literally is a form of bondage in itself. And certainly any number of Christians have emulated the Passion scenes, what with self-flaggelation and being hoisted onto a Cross every Easter. I have a book called "Bondage of the Mind: How Old Testament Fundamentalism Shackles the Mind and Enslaves the Spirit," by R. D. Gold. The title says it all. And St. Paul was one of the most repressed individuals in the New Testament, whose practices have been carried forward by the Catholic Church unto this day.
> > Here is a quote from another book: "How to Attain Enlightenment" by James Swartz, that seems relevant : "it is not clear who wrote the Old Testament, but it is a good example of truth and ignorance sitting side by side. God, 'The Eternal,' kindly leads the Israelites out of the darkness. However, when Moses asks him what to do about another tribe that is getting in the way of their march to the 'land of milk and honey,' which is a symbol for freedom, he says to kill them. Evidently, the Eternal is an 'us and them' kind of god."
> > Re: so called perversions such as homosexuality, I challenge anyone, Christian, Jew or Atheist, to find one word of condemnation of homosexuality by Jesus in the New Testament. If you base your life on any unquestioned belief sytem you will undoubtedly find yourself in psychological and spiritual bondage. While this may appear comforting in an "us vs. them" kind of way, it remains one of the worst forms of bondage imaginable.
> > Playing TUG's doesn't hold a candle to such ignorance, in my humble opinion.

> This was not intended as a critique of Christianity. I disagree on almost every point, but we can agree to disagree. When one reads interpretations of the Bible designed to allow you to hear what you want to hear, you probably will. As I said in the initial post, I did not intend for this topic to be a launching pad for preaching or bashing. I did not bring up fetishes to impune homosexuals, although I could respond at legnth to your challenge if I wanted to stray down that land mine laden rabbit trail. For the Christian who takes his or her faith seriously, it is important to consider where or if tie up games fit, and if so to what extent they are appropriate. I, for one, am not a Christian mired in Old Testament legalism, although Jesus did say he came not to condemn the law but to fulfill it.

You were pretty clear about it, but you had to know sooner or later somebody was going to miss the entire point and go there.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Jack Roper » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:33 pm

Ron, you said you did not bring this topic up "to preach or condemn." However, simple equating homosexuality with the word "perversion" is a form of condemnation. And I suppose that's because you are a believer in the Bible as the inerrant "word of God," and this includes those sections of the old Testament that condemn homosexuality, which to you is "the law" that Jesus came to fulfill.
Be that as it may my, post was in no way to condemn organized religion as it relates to bondage, but rather to attempt, however feebly, to show that such religion is in itself a form of enslavement--to a belief structure which may or may not be true. I suppose I expect folks to be far more interested in the truth than in any belief they might hold, but that would just make me naive. The question of what is love is far more relevant to me than any belief someone holds regarding love, truth, or the Bible itself (which was written by men after all).
And Kyle: did I really miss the point or merely enlarge the scope of the inquiry? And isn't what Ron initially asked an inquiry, and isn't posting a response on here part of that inquiry?

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:00 pm

> Jack Roper wrote:Ron, you said you did not bring this topic up "to preach or condemn." However, simple equating homosexuality with the word "perversion" is a form of condemnation. And I suppose that's because you are a believer in the Bible as the inerrant "word of God," and this includes those sections of the old Testament that condemn homosexuality, which to you is "the law" that Jesus came to fulfill.
> Be that as it may my, post was in no way to condemn organized religion as it relates to bondage, but rather to attempt, however feebly, to show that such religion is in itself a form of enslavement--to a belief structure which may or may not be true. I suppose I expect folks to be far more interested in the truth than in any belief they might hold, but that would just make me naive. The question of what is love is far more relevant to me than any belief someone holds regarding love, truth, or the Bible itself (which was written by men after all).
> And Kyle: did I really miss the point or merely enlarge the scope of the inquiry? And isn't what Ron initially asked an inquiry, and isn't posting a response on here part of that inquiry?

I did not equate homosexuality with perversion, although since tab A does not fit into slot B it could be said that it is. I have no interest in going farther down that road although I'm certain you would love for me to. Hopefully, this is a TUG site and not a gay rights site, or lack thereof. If I wish to debate homosexuality or religion, I will go to the other non-TUG forum, and I probably won't. Invariably, I have found virtually every homosexual I have encountered who gets online and baits Christians to be 100% intolerant of any point of view except 100% acceptance and endorsement of their lifestyle. Such discussions turn ugly and don't interest me. Fortunately, I know many homosexuals who would just as soon live and let live and they are friends.
To call religion a form of enslavement is both a farce and an attack. I suspect it is for some, but in Christianiy there is free will. You or anyone else can reject God. He stands at the door and knocks, but He is a gentleman and He will not force himself in. You have 30, or 40, or however many years to act as if He does not exist, or not so long maybe since there are a lot of trucks out there with bad brakes. Ultimately, we will all find out.
BTW, if I do use the term "perversion", it is by means of the dictionary definition which is to deviate from the norm. Yes, I suppose some would intend it as an insult, but sophomoric behavior is not what interests me.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Fesselfan » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:46 am

Thanks for some hearty laughs
There are 10 kind of people in the world.
Those who understand binary numeral system, and those who don't.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Kyle » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:24 pm

> Jack Roper wrote:Ron, you said you did not bring this topic up "to preach or condemn." However, simple equating homosexuality with the word "perversion" is a form of condemnation. And I suppose that's because you are a believer in the Bible as the inerrant "word of God," and this includes those sections of the old Testament that condemn homosexuality, which to you is "the law" that Jesus came to fulfill.
> Be that as it may my, post was in no way to condemn organized religion as it relates to bondage, but rather to attempt, however feebly, to show that such religion is in itself a form of enslavement--to a belief structure which may or may not be true. I suppose I expect folks to be far more interested in the truth than in any belief they might hold, but that would just make me naive. The question of what is love is far more relevant to me than any belief someone holds regarding love, truth, or the Bible itself (which was written by men after all).
> And Kyle: did I really miss the point or merely enlarge the scope of the inquiry? And isn't what Ron initially asked an inquiry, and isn't posting a response on here part of that inquiry?

I didn't see much of anything you wrote above that really addressed the topic at hand.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by Kyle » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:31 pm

> Terry wrote:How about the devil being tied up for 1000 years in Revelation? There is probably bondage in Rivers of Babylon too. "They led us into captivity, require us to sing a song" or something like that? There is tons of bondage in the bible.

There's actually a lot of instances of bondage in the Bible, but mostly relating to slavery and captives of war and things like that, not really the kind of thing that's discussed here. There are some descriptions of people being tied up, but the only one that remotely seems to come close is the story of Samson and Delilah, which almost reads like consensual bondage up until the point Delilah kept bringing in the Philistines to take Samson prisoner and get the reward for his capture (on that note, shouldn't he have figured out she was up to no good by the 3rd time?). Even that's stretching it a LOT.

### Re: Christians and bondage

Post by trammel » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:43 pm

Agreed, Kyle. Thanks!
I think the Bible is largely silent on the subject of recreational bondage, as it is on a lot of subjects where there really isn't a right or wrong.