Kimmi wrote:I feel like a tree today. I wish to have people showering me with dirt and water and how dare you NOT do it and accept me. Sounds silly, doesn't it?
FelixSH wrote:This is as far as my knowledge goes, if anyone has a better idea please correct me.
As far as I know, a transgender person always (or for very long?) felt like a person of the other gender. This doesn´t necessarily have anything to do with how they feel about the other sex. A woman can change her gender and still be into men (or into women, if she was a lesbian).
Furthermore, I think it is at least for some people less about having the body of the other gender. It´s more about the different gender norms for men and women, and choosing which are better fitting for the person. But that probably differs from person to person. What I know is that it is a hard struggle for this people. That most people don´t experience this doesn´t make it any less real for the transgender person.
Though I think comparing a person who wants to change the gender with someone who wants to be a tree is not fair. One is relatively easily achievable, the other completely impossible, and also far more removed from the starting point. Honestly, I think people make way to much of a deal about gender and the supposed differences (in the sense of critizising (spelling?) someone for not being male or female enough). Maybe a guy wants to be able to put on dresses and make-up, and act in other ways like a woman, but feels like he can´t because he would get judged, purely on his gender. If it is so hard for him, why not?
But again, I don´t know any transgender people, so this is mainly a guess. What I´m sure about, though, is that we shouldn´t judge people for this. Everyone here should know how shitty it is to be judged because of something completely harmless - in our case consensual bondage. Changing ones gender doesn´t hurt anyone, so there is nothing wrong with it.
jsherwood wrote:I don't me the sexual relationship. I mean biological. How can a transperson or trasnkid know what a girl really is like besides acting, dressing and taking on girl's parts? How can he-she experience whne she's on hormonal blockers first that stop male growth but won't allow sexual arousal. And as I posted, definitely can't give the experience of a female teenager--ie periods?
TUfriend wrote:My trans friends have told me that it stems partially from social constructs about gender and partially from something known as gender dysphoria where you emotionally feel depressed or upset because you are in the wrong body. The ones who I that transitioned became noticeably happier and their depression went away after transitioning. The difference isn't necessarily the way others see them but how they see themselves.
TUfriend wrote:My trans friends have told me that it stems partially from social constructs about gender and partially from something known as gender dysphoria where you emotionally feel depressed or upset because you are in the wrong body. The ones who I that transitioned became noticeably happier and their depression went away after transitioning. The difference isn't necessarily the way others see them but how they see themselves.
jsherwood wrote:TUfriend wrote:My trans friends have told me that it stems partially from social constructs about gender and partially from something known as gender dysphoria where you emotionally feel depressed or upset because you are in the wrong body. The ones who I that transitioned became noticeably happier and their depression went away after transitioning. The difference isn't necessarily the way others see them but how they see themselves.
Do they feel happy knowing they can't have proper penial erections or monthly menstrual flows like normal men and women?
Jason Toddman wrote:jsherwood wrote:TUfriend wrote:My trans friends have told me that it stems partially from social constructs about gender and partially from something known as gender dysphoria where you emotionally feel depressed or upset because you are in the wrong body. The ones who I that transitioned became noticeably happier and their depression went away after transitioning. The difference isn't necessarily the way others see them but how they see themselves.
Do they feel happy knowing they can't have proper penial erections or monthly menstrual flows like normal men and women?
I assum you refer to the sex they wish they were rather than the sex they were born as? Because most of them are quite functional as the sex they started out as, but of course no TV born a man could ever be pregnant nor any TV born a woman ever having a working, ejaculating penis.
Perhaps one day this will be possible; medical science is making great strides after all. Perhaps if this can happen such sex changes will actually make sense. For me, imo it seems to me that those who get sex changes are just fooling themselves (and occasionally other people who I think would be reasonable in resenting not knowing the chick they started dating was born a guy or vice-versa).
jsherwood wrote:I guess I'm talking more about those who are trans from early ages again like the boy-girl Jazz Jennings. In her case, he/she was trans from childhood, so how can she/he understand growing up as a girl without a period? (ok she can get breast forms and tuck her p)?
Jason Toddman wrote:jsherwood wrote:I guess I'm talking more about those who are trans from early ages again like the boy-girl Jazz Jennings. In her case, he/she was trans from childhood, so how can she/he understand growing up as a girl without a period? (ok she can get breast forms and tuck her p)?
On a personal level, they cannot; any more than a white person can truly understand what it is like to be black or a jew to be a muslim. Their perceptions are based on feelings rather than any cognitive awareness of what it is like to be the other sex. A TV born as a man will never get pregnant for example (barring an enormous medical brakethrough), so they never can really know no matter how much they try to change themselves.
Personally the whole TV things strikes me more as a psychological problem (not an illness; a problem - not the same thing) that leads to frustration for them no matter how much the rest of us try to accommodate them. Personally, I think they should just learn to deal with it rather than make their problem OUR problem. It's not like we're talking about making life simpler for the handicapped here. The problem isn't their bodies but their own psychologies.
Granted it's not their fault anymore than a person is 'at fault' for their sexual orientation, but what gays want really doesn't affect anyone else (unless they're narrow-minded). But what TVs want the rest of us to do to accommodate their wishes (such as demanding the 'right' for sex change hormones even when in prison) strikes me as extreme, expensive, requires vast changes in everyday interpersonal relationships such as unisex public facilities and it is unreasonable to expect everyone else to accommodate what is really a very small minority.
In general I'm fairly liberal, but when it comes to this I just don't get it. How about we worry about people with real problems? Like the homeless, or orphans, or gay kids who get picked on at school?
chadmc90 wrote:Sorry, jsherwood, but I simply don't understand what you are trying to ask. Can you please clarify your question?
chadmc90 wrote:Okay, that helped.
How you feel and what you biologically are are two different things. So I gues the truth is you can't. Even if you get those surguries, that doesn't completely change your sex. Until there are some breakthroughs in science, you will never be able to change over completely. Sure, you can get a fake penis or vagina, but your DNA remains the same.
jsherwood wrote:chadmc90 wrote:Okay, that helped.
How you feel and what you biologically are are two different things. So I gues the truth is you can't. Even if you get those surguries, that doesn't completely change your sex. Until there are some breakthroughs in science, you will never be able to change over completely. Sure, you can get a fake penis or vagina, but your DNA remains the same.
So transpeople have it easier especially MtF? They won't have to worry about periods, get PMS (do they if they take enough hormones?). I suppose they could wear pads (definitely not tampons) but it would be waste.
Kyle wrote:One thing I've never understood about any of this: How do we determine if someone is really living as the opposite sex? How far do you have to go?
Suppose two people say they are the opposite sex of what they were born as. Both are biologically male. One wears skirts a lot, doesn't have facial hair, has long hair, makeup, etc. The other one quite clearly looks stereotypically male. Both say they consider themselves to be female. At what point can you draw the line? Can you really tell the second person (I don't know whether to use "man" or "woman" here so I'm playing it safe) s/he isn't really a woman and therefore can't enter the women's locker room but you do allow the first person in?
And if you're going to let anyone into a men's/women's bathroom (or other gender-segregated area) no matter what they really are biologically, why even have designations anyway? Just take the signs down and open the damn things up to everyone and be done with it.
I guess what I'm saying can be summed up here: how do we determine who's really male or female? Because if it's because they say they are, that can be abused very, very quickly. If they have to act a certain way, that sounds awfully judgmental and probably sexist. I don't think I've ever seen it clearly defined by anyone.
I also suspect there's some truth to what TUfriend says about the difference in male-to-female and female-to-male people.
Plueschbabycd wrote:Hallo,
I hear from MF Trans that menstruate not in any case thing the miss and form sister of a MF that she get jealous of her, that she get never problems with menstruate. Byway self through my handycap with my erections and infertile that not easy deal with.
@Jason Toddman: I seen quite the contrary to you for me is same your a say gay/lesbian the have to live as an heterosexual Person. I am equal rights even this point.
Andrew
Jason Toddman wrote:Plueschbabycd wrote:Hallo,
I hear from MF Trans that menstruate not in any case thing the miss and form sister of a MF that she get jealous of her, that she get never problems with menstruate. Byway self through my handycap with my erections and infertile that not easy deal with.
@Jason Toddman: I seen quite the contrary to you for me is same your a say gay/lesbian the have to live as an heterosexual Person. I am equal rights even this point.
Andrew
If I understand you correctly Plueschbabycd (and I'm not sure I do, so correct me if I'm wrong), I never said anything about denying TVs equal rights. I never said that TVs should not be treated as I or anyone else, and I never would say that.
It's where they want to treated special or iwo differently that I have a problem.
If *I* were to try to go use the woman's restroom in a public area - especially with women currently inside it - I'd probably be arrested. At the very least I'd be greeted with shrieks, insults, demands to leave, and in general be treated as some kind of pervert. Doubly so if I dressed up as a woman (as a teenager I occasionally was made to by my tough gf; but you can bet even wild horses or even my gf wouldn't have been able to compel me to go into the girl's bathroom anywhere! NUH UH!!!).
So why should some other guy use the woman's bathroom just because they prefer to be female? Especially with no concern how other women in there might feel about the situation? They feel their concerns trumps those of actual women born as women! At that point he's asking to essentially be treated differently than a male who is quite comfortable being a male.
So I'm not the one demanding they be treated differently... they are. And that's what I object to. I don't mind treating them the same as anyone else, but many of them want to be treated special, heedless and uncaring of the concerns of everyone else, and that's where I'm drawing the line.
I have no problem with a TV dressing like a woman, wearing makeup, even talking and acting and looking as much like a woman as he/she can. Even having sex with either a woman or a woman; that's none of my affair. I'm not a homo-phobe by any means. It's when they want to go places only real women can go and men not such as the ladies' restroom that I have a problem with it. Until society changes and we stop having gender-segregated restrooms (which, actually, I can deal with since then everyone is treated the same!), it's their demand to use facilities other men would be hauled to jail for using that I have a problem with.
Where their rights are no different from mine as an adult male, I have no problem at all.
jsherwood wrote:It would be even worse with a FtM going to a male's toilet and trying to use some device--which there actuallly is--to pee normally. She/he will be seeing the male parts of other men and those men will be seeing her biological parts.
Jason Toddman wrote:jsherwood wrote:It would be even worse with a FtM going to a male's toilet and trying to use some device--which there actuallly is--to pee normally. She/he will be seeing the male parts of other men and those men will be seeing her biological parts.
Well, not if they use a stall if any are available. Besides, I don't look at other men's parts when they go, so why should I... hmm, then again I must admit the novelty of the situation would be quite distracting!
jsherwood wrote:
Of course it's not for men to intentionally see each other's parts when the pee. But it would defeat the purpose if a FtM enters a male toilet and constantly uses the stall. And like it or not, I believe eyes see see stuff at the side of your vision.
Jason Toddman wrote:jsherwood wrote:
Of course it's not for men to intentionally see each other's parts when the pee. But it would defeat the purpose if a FtM enters a male toilet and constantly uses the stall. And like it or not, I believe eyes see see stuff at the side of your vision.
Yeah, but I ignore it. I could learn to ignore the TV too if need be. As I rarely use public facilities anymore though, it's not a problem I personally am worried about.
My point however is that I think it is asking too much for everyone else to do the same. Why should the rest of us change our ways concerning such a private and personal function for a tiny minority (less than 1% last I heard)? Even full acceptance of gays (excluding the TVs of course) causes no such personal inconveniences for the straights and children like this does.