Health Care Anyone?

Postby tiedup101 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:56 pm

Whats everybody's opinion on health care?
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Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby Jack Roper » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:39 pm

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Last edited by Jack Roper on Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby Kyle » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:35 pm

I'm for regulations, but not a government takeover.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby haloguy » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:46 pm

I am in favor of what obama is proposing

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby Kyle » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:53 pm

The government doesn't run much of anything efficiently. I definitely do not want them in charge of my health insurance.

That being said, the insurance companies have gotten out of control and some regulations are necessary.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby dreadnaught3200 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:47 pm

I'm with Kyle. Regulations are necessary to get the Insurance Companies back in line. But I would trust the Government even less. Up here our Universal Health care system is backwards and inefficient. It's not as bad as a lot of the far right wing propaganda says it is, if you really need care, you'll most likely get it. But it's certainly not wonderful and rosy like the Michael Moore's of the world will have you believe.
There's a permanent tension in music isn't there? On one hand you have three chords, you know, four four and three chords. Then there's the people like me, who say "Well, why don't we add a fourth chord and put it in five four?" - Bill Bruford

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby haloguy » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:16 am

yes, but also, the government is there to help us and to allow us to have the fullest and happiest lives possible.

As our most important document says

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

our founding fathers knew that we the people had the right to live, and pursue what we wanted, and if the government was misusing it's powers, or not listening to the people, that it is we the people's job to change things. Not old windbags on capitol hill, arguing our futures, but us! the people that they are fighting for! that is why it is our job to change things, and help us get what WE want. and that is why "we must mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor" to get done what needs getting done.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby Spreadeagle » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:40 am

I live in the UK and we have the National Health Service (nhs) everyone in the uk (and people visiting) recieve world class health care from mental health to accinent and emergency free to all. Although this does mean higher taxes, i think its a small price to pay for a service of this magnetude. I dont follow american press, but cant understand why americans dont want this.
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Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby nexthero231 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:27 pm

Spreadeagle wrote:I live in the UK and we have the National Health Service (nhs) everyone in the uk (and people visiting) recieve world class health care from mental health to accinent and emergency free to all. Although this does mean higher taxes, i think its a small price to pay for a service of this magnetude. I dont follow american press, but cant understand why americans dont want this.


Basically our government (the U.S.government) is very corrupt, and personally with it so corrupt that they are willing to spend trillions while our nation is in debt, I wouldn't trust them with a National Health Service like you have in the UK. I've been following the health care debate going on in the US and it is not pretty. The current health care bill being debated, H.R. 4872, Health Care & Education Affordability Reconciliation Act of 2010 is scheduled for a vote in our House of Representatives on Sunday, and as far as I know some of our representatives are playing dirty tricks to get the votes they need to pass this bill. I'm all for reform of our Health Care system, and us Americans do want it, but what's being thrown through Congress is a 2310 page, 940 billion dollar bill that a lot of Americans do not want for reform. If the service works for you in the UK, then good for you.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby haloguy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:07 am

Spreadeagle wrote:I live in the UK and we have the National Health Service (nhs) everyone in the uk (and people visiting) recieve world class health care from mental health to accinent and emergency free to all. Although this does mean higher taxes, i think its a small price to pay for a service of this magnetude. I dont follow american press, but cant understand why americans dont want this.


also, in the UK, they have about 61 million, well, here in the united states, we have about 310,000,000 people, nearly 6x england, we have more people, and with more people, comes more ideas on why we cannot have it universally.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby Kyle » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:11 am

Taxes are already outrageous here. Besides federal income taxes most states also have income taxes and local governments get their share. When you add it up it's nothing for 45% of a person's income to go to taxes, and more is far from unheard of. That's a big issue. The government debt is already an ungodly amount of money, and the health care reform will make that much, much worse. Granted, if the government didn't waste so much money we might have enough to run something like this, but waste is standard operating procedure for the government.

But another issue that often isn't brought up is most Americans simply don't trust the government with something like this. I've never really understood why people in other countries think the government is the answer to every problem, particularly considering the history of governments in Europe. The United States was pretty much founded on a fear of too much government power, and that is largely still with us to this day.

I question the constitutionality of a government-run health insurance system, but the Constiution is ignored by most politicians anyway, so that probably doesn't matter either way.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby nexthero231 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:16 am

Kyle wrote:Taxes are already outrageous here. Besides federal income taxes most states also have income taxes and local governments get their share. When you add it up it's nothing for 45% of a person's income to go to taxes, and more is far from unheard of. That's a big issue. The government debt is already an ungodly amount of money, and the health care reform will make that much, much worse. Granted, if the government didn't waste so much money we might have enough to run something like this, but waste is standard operating procedure for the government.

But another issue that often isn't brought up is most Americans simply don't trust the government with something like this. I've never really understood why people in other countries think the government is the answer to every problem, particularly considering the history of governments in Europe. The United States was pretty much founded on a fear of too much government power, and that is largely still with us to this day.

I question the constitutionality of a government-run health insurance system, but the Constiution is ignored by most politicians anyway, so that probably doesn't matter either way.


http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

Article 1, Section 8 lists the powers of congress. One of them in paticular says:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Now "to provide for the common defence and general welfare" could include health care because it can be considered as general welfare, however the bill being passed may not be welfare if it doesn't work, so thus the bill could be unconstitutional.

Also, there is the Tenth Amendment:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

To me, that means our federal government can not force us into a universal health care service, or to buy a health care plan that we don't want. So yes the constitutionality of this bill is still highly debated and controversial.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby haloguy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:59 am

I just read that one of the democrats highest people said just a few hours ago "We have all the votes we need"

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby Kyle » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:57 pm

I've heard that in the House. Is that just the House of Representatives or both houses of Congress? I haven't been able to figure that out from the reports I've heard yet.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby nexthero231 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:34 pm

Kyle wrote:I've heard that in the House. Is that just the House of Representatives or both houses of Congress? I haven't been able to figure that out from the reports I've heard yet.


The house is passing the same exact bill that the Senate is passing through Reconciliation (Which means the Senate only needs a simple majority instead of a super majority to pass the bill). It seems that the house is going to have enough votes to pass the bill as it is. Now the votes that the Democrats were trying to get is because of a Presidential order calling for no federal funds to be used for abortions in order to get the representatives of the Democratic party who originally voted "no" to vote "yes". The only problem with this executive order is that the President does not have control over the budget, thus the federal funds could go to abortion,and thus some of the representatives could be screwed.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby Jack Roper » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:15 pm

And if the Representatives get screwed they may, in fact, then want to get an abortion themselves!

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby nexthero231 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:50 pm

H.R. 3590 Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is passed. In other words, the health care bill has passed.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby haloguy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:32 am

The bill is through, we are in the clear

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby nexthero231 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:05 am

haloguy wrote:The bill is through, we are in the clear


Not yet. Although the Senate version, HR 3590 has passed, the reconciliation version with the revisions, HR4872 has to be approved by the Senate with a simple majority. Also we have to wait and see if this bill works because some of the provisions in the bill do not go into effect until later on, so right now it's a wait and see to see if the bill works or not.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby Jack Roper » Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:19 pm

On a recent vacation last August to Canada my friend and I did an informal poll of Canadians regarding their "socialized" medicine (this at the time the Tea party folks were condemning the Canadian system as inefficient , with poor delivery and long waiting periods). Without exceptions, everyone said they very much liked the Canadian single payer system. They pay for it, of course, but they don't receive outrageous bills or rejection because of pre-existing conditions.

Sarah Palin, the now millionaire, went to Canada recently and is quoted as saying: "We used to hustle over the border for health care in Canafda. And I think now, Isn't that ironic?" More like extreme hypocricy Sarah.

Re: Health Care Anyone?

Postby Male shortstied » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:09 am

I understand what you are all saying, but the progressive in the left won't to make Healthcare a right & not a priviledge wichit is. I'm for reform to but not gover. takeover stilled reform; I watch fox News alot & they says that he progassives want to rule & have power & control, this healthcare bill is one more step for them to control our nation.