## Me shouting about Scottish politics, move along

Post by mcsproot » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:12 pm

Now if I may add my own experience of politics. I'm sure the affairs of the Scottish Government aren't of interest to the majority of this board, but I have wanted to add this for awhile. The current government party is the SNP (Scottish National Party) whose main goal is to make Scotland an independent nation of the United Kingdom. For Americans, that would be is say...Alaska said they didn't want to be American or Canadian, but Alaskan.
The voting system in Scotland for the Scottish Parliament is as follows: you get two votes. One to vote for a local representative (from a political party or an independent candidate) and another to vote for a political party. The first vote uses the First Past the Post system, where the candidate with the most votes wins and is elected. The totals of the second vote create extra 'seats' in the parliament where the percentage vote equals the percentage of extra seats. These particular politicians do not represent a constituency (political region) but instead are there more to add in numbers better representing how the public feel about the political parties. For instance, I voted for the Scottish Liberal Democrat candidate because I feel he is doing a good job as our local representative, and I voted with my second vote for the Scottish National Party because I believe they did a good job of governing in their first term as a minority government and I support their Independence agenda.
That voting system is designed (apparently) so that no one party should have a majority government. That keeps things fair, so that the ruling party can't go 'We have enough of our people to do what we want', which is what free politics is about. However, the SNP won the last election with a majority government (52% I believe). Which really just goes to show how much support they have, for whatever the Scottish public support them on.
Because of the Independence agenda, the British government are frankly worried about the idea of losing Scotland. All of the British oil is found in Scottish sea for a start. I also believe Scotland has the potential to be the first country in the world to reach 100% renewable power, which would be a great boon to Scotland (and Britain, if Scotland remains part of the UK). In typical politics, rather than prove their idea is better, the other parties of both Scottish and British governments are attempting to goad Alex Salmond (SNP Leader and thus First Minister of the Scottish Government) to launch his Independence referendum now when he explicitly said he would do so once he has Scotland on better ground in the latter part of this term (in 2-3 years time). To branch over to Lonewolf's topic found here: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=11459 I would severely lose confidence in the SNP if they went back on that promise unless the global economy took another plunge. Scotland is a small country, and Alex Salmond wishes it to be independent in full, not in name while surviving on European handouts.
As to why Scotland wishes to be an independent nation...mostly it would be because those who support the idea believe we could do a better job governing ourselves than the British government, who mostly seem to give Scotland the shaft. Granted, Scotland does form a small part of the UK (5 million Scots opposed to 60 million English or thereabouts) but it often does seem Scotland gets an unfair amount of 'badness' from the British government. Some examples:
1: A recent Â£2 billion tax increase against the oil companies operating in the North Sea. This had the potential to put off further investment in the oil industry, which many jobs in Scotland depend.
2: Most recently, scrapping 2 out of 3 coastguard posts, which have been reinstated after much protest. The reason they were cut was because it was 'too expensive'. Cutting these posts would save Â£8 million per year. Yes, it's too expensive to run the coastguard which could be funded by 0.4% of the tax hike mentioned above.
3: Joining the European Union (but not the Eurozone currency thank the Lord). This move caused the European Fisheries Minister (who is from Austria, a country with no coastline) to severely screw around with fishing quotas. He butchered Scotland's fishing industry, and gave the Danish a quota on 1 million tonnes for industrial use only (aka animal feed). If you ever buy Danish pork or eggs, you may get a fishy taste. To add, the Danish fishing industry has not once been able to catch this much fish yet.
4: The Poll Tax. I'm not sure what it was exactly, but it was an experimental new tax invented by the Conservative government under Margaret Thatcher. Where did she choose to test this tax? Scotland. It turned out that the Poll Tax was a highly unfair tax and lead to mass protest. Because of this, the Conservative party is nigh unelectable in Scotland. In fact, the Scottish Conservatives are having to elect a new party leader. In fact, ALL Scottish political parties are electing new leaders because of the SNP landslide. At any rate, one of the candidates for the Scottish Conservative leadership has vowed to completely dis-associate with the Conservative brand. New name, new logo, new colours (they use blue) and being more centre-right than right wing.
5: Faslane Naval Base. This base is the only nuclear submarine base in the UK. Depending on how you look at it, it's good because having navy personnel is good business for nearby bars etc. But it is bad because no one likes nukes and there were mass peace protests outside the base in the 80s.
6: Coastguard. If Scotland had control of it's own coastguard, I would hope the government would keep the minimum three stations we have, or better yet, expand. As an example, Germany has like 1/5 the coastline of the UK, yet has a larger coastguard fleet. Given the large amount of shipping that is around Scottish waters (oil industry and those going from North America to Scandinavia pass through as well) the coastguard is essential in my eyes.
Anyway, rant over, not sure how much folks can add. But I just wanted to get all of that off my chest. Remember, check out Lonewolf's topic viewtopic.php?f=23&t=11459 to see what got me started.
23 year old guy from the UK.
Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

### Re: Me shouting about Scottish politics, move along

Post by sarobah » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:56 pm

I will just add something about point # 4, the poll tax.
Thatcherâ€™s attempt to introduce a tax which was designed specifically to shift the tax burden from the rich to the poor was the dumbest act of political suicide since Caesar went to the Senate house.*
In a very short time Thatcher went from unbeatable to unelectable. Thatâ€™s what happens when arrogance puts public officials out of touch with the common people.
On the other hand, it demonstrates what George Bush Senior (Dubyaâ€™s father) described after his defeat by Clinton â€“ â€œthe majesty of the democratic process.â€ No matter how successful, how powerful, how popular, if you donâ€™t keep your wits the politics will get you.
* Okay, thatâ€™s obscure. Iâ€™m talking about Julius Caesar and the Ides of March.
Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the soul within.

### Re: Me shouting about Scottish politics, move along

Post by Chris12 » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:46 am

Nice to see arrogant people (thatcher) get what coming to them. Reading this does make it seem Britain is screwing the Scots over which means they kinda deserve losing them.
The senate house thing isn't that obscure for Europeans i think

### Re: Me shouting about Scottish politics, move along

Post by Games_Bond » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:06 am

As a Scottish person I just have to support this thread
Firstly, the Scottish election process is well described by Mcsproot. The SNP formed a minority Government in the previous term, and this time round they were heralded back in with a majority. As Mcsproot explained, a 52% majority, which is the slenderest of victories in the FPTP UK General Election system, is somewhat of a landslide victory. What is interesting about this is that most Scottish people are against the SNP on their core policy - Scottish Independence. The message from the electorate seems to be: We maybe don't agree with your views on independence, but we still want you to do the running of the country. Indeed the SNP are wise to this and have functioned as a proper Government, not pushing Nationalistic ideology very much at all. It is ironic, given a lot of the views expressed on other threads, that we are voting in a particular party and saying to them: "You know that core promise of yours? Er, yeah, don't worry too much about it; that's the one we don't mind if you keep or not."
Of course, other reasons for SNP success have been touched on here as well. The Conservative party are DOA in Scotland. They will never be forgiven for the Poll tax. And Labour - who are they and what have they been doing in Scotland for the last 6 years? I only found out who Iain Grey was a few months back, and he's out now anyway. And the Liberal Democrats, they are still viewed as a small party, mores the pity.
You don't come across too many British Nationalists in Scotland. Unionist, certainly, but not outright Brits. The other parties slam the SNP for their separatist ideology at every opportunity, and use scare tactics to prevent the Scottish people taking the plunge and forming their own country. All so they can rob the country of its righteous wealth and prosperity. For me, I think Scotland in analogous terms is "married" to the United Kingdom and it has not been a happy marriage, and that we have simply been spending our time trying to work out if we'd get richer by going through with a "divorce", or whether it is not worth the effort. You would have thought the Conservatives would've used the first opportunity they've had as a Government for about 20 years to offload safe Labour seats and give Scotland independence. I am failing to see what benefits the marriage is bringing us. I am not 100% in favour of Independence, primarily because the opposition scare tactics have worked to a degree and I need to get access to the statistics and do the maths myself, because politicians on both sides are spouting the best and worst case scenarios. Much like Reginald D Hunter in the climate change debate - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SddhsAi0KK8
Like you said, Mcsproot, I'm not sure what I have added to this thread - mainly because I'm not entirely sure with where you were trying to go with your rant, as it were. Certainly it was interesting, full of well-researched data etc, and I'm not inclined to "move along" as it seems like a worthwhile topic. I kind of got a hint of your ideology (as anyone reading this will have got of mine), but am unsure what you were looking for (if anything) from us, so here I will stop

### Re: Me shouting about Scottish politics, move along

Post by mcsproot » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:24 am

Well Games Bond, I just had the political urge, so making this topic was my way of getting my little fix. But on that, I was disappointed that the UK Parliament voted against a referendum on the UK's status within the EU. It stings a fair bit that Brown promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and then went 'loljk'. The only country that voted against was Republic of Ireland, and only because their laws say that they HAD to have a referendum. And guess what? Brussels told the Irish Government to have another one, which is just a slap in the face. Why didn't they just straight up say 'silly Irish peoples, you voted wrong'.
Anyway, my understanding is that the Common Market (the EU before it was the EU) was near essential to the UK recovering after the Second World War, as the British Empire was falling apart due to being bankrupt from saving Europe from a dictator, alongside America. So the UK had to rebuild itself, as well as funding research projects in Europe, as I believe it is international law that a victor in a war must assist in rebuilding that country. But now, the UK seems to be doing ok (no thanks to Brown selling all our gold when prices were at the lowest and various governments selling off our manufacturing) and I really can't see the point of us being in the EU now. All it does is cost us Â£20 million a day to get told to stop doing stuff. Pity they can't do that to Greece, which is draining the Eurozone for all it's worth. As an aside...
I heard that Greece has been described as a 'poor country full of rich people'. Why? Because fiddling your tax there is about as common as breathing. The Grecian government gives it's citizens the opportunity to be honest and forthright in their tax bills, and what do they do? They go 'oh yeah I own a mansion and swimming pool and four cars and earn less than Â£9,000 per year'. The Grecian government is no better. They were first refused to join the Euro currency because their economy wasn't good enough. So they fiddled the books and tried again, and got in. Greece (and thus Europe) wouldn't be in this mess if the Greeks actually paid the tax they should have done in the first place.
Anyway, back to the EU. I can't think of anything good recently from the UKs part in the EU. Our fishing industry doesn't exist, whenever someone who has any sort of minority group (religion, skin colour, culture etc.) gets arrested they always run for the European Court of Human Rights. While a recent example was exaggerated (that of someone unable to be deported because they had a pet cat) it is in the EU human rights act that people have a right to family life. So if someone sneaks into the UK and gets a partner, they can't be deported most of the time. One of my pet hates is when people of ethnic minorities pull the race card. IE get arrested and all you get is 'You only arrested me because I'm black!' etc. No, you were arrested because you were beating seven shades of shit out of someone, but you'll still take it to the European Court of Human Rights.
To round that off, I think the UK should stick the middle finger up to the EU and get out before it becomes the United States of Europe. Maybe it's British pride in once having the largest empire in the world, so we have angry little big man syndrome. As for my topic being well researched, hardly. I just happen to listen to news programmes on the radio a lot.
23 year old guy from the UK.
Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

### Re: Me shouting about Scottish politics, move along

Post by Games_Bond » Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:25 am

I like this... no political debate as such because I pretty much agree with everything you say
I don't have anything personal against the EU - as explained in the previous post, the EU (or its predecessor) has done a lot for the UK in the past, but that doesn't mean we'll put up with them indefinitely for old time's sake. To analogise, I would be grateful to a man who bought me a drink in a bar when I am really thirsty and penniless, but my liking and tolerance for the same man would wane if I was always the one buying him and/or his friends a round of drinks every Friday night ever after at his insistence. The decision to split from the EU would be a matter of pragmatic practicality, rather than sticking our finger up at them, as it were.
Having said that, I feel I am being diplomatic to say the least when I say I have nothing personal against the EU. They have been attempting to destroy our (our here meaning Scottish) fishing industry for a long time now, and have by-and-large succeeded. The Common Agricultural Policy has also been not so much a thorn, but a knife, in the back of British farmers. Oh dear, we're producing far too much food - more than we can possibly eat! Really, Mr [Insert name of Euro Bigwig here]? Why then, were there Nine Hundred and Twenty Five Million hungry souls last year? (Source: http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm#Number_of_hungry_people_in_the_world) I don't suppose you could pay them the same subsidy to produce 15% more food as you do to leave 15% of their land "set-aside" and give it to the starving people of the world? Oh, I see, there's no profit in that? Think of the poor MEPs who need to fly First Class to Brussels on a regular basis. And there was me thinking it was about how much food there were, not about money. Silly ol' me.
So, I do despair at the EU on those two issues - and those just happen to be two massive issues in this country.
As for Greece... oh dear Lord, what on earth is happening here? The EU is throwing money at Greece. Time for another analogy. Think of the EU as a house. (Scotland is the dusty attic, and thanks to the EU not paying proper attention, there is a leak in the roof, but that's another matter). What is Greece in the EU household? You guessed it - the fireplace. That's what we're doing effectively. Throwing money into the fire on the promise that it keeps the entire house warm - until we run out of money, that is. The Greek economy is a business that is allowing itself to fail and not take the measures it should because a rich friend will bail it out. Hang on... where might they have got this idea from?
So now we're looking at Scotland splitting from the UK and the UK splitting from Europe. As for a referendum on EU membership, I think David Cameron got his fingers well and truly burned, but I'm not sure I think a referendum is a good idea right now. I don't think the general public has access to all the facts to make an informed decision. Despite my Euro-bashing on this thread, I will hold my hand up and admit that I certainly don't think I do. As for the previous Government not giving us referendums on Europe - well, that'll be because they knew we'd vote against what they wanted. Who do we think we are? The people that gave them a job? Oh yeah, wait a minute, we are

### Re: Me shouting about Scottish politics, move along

Post by Chris12 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:49 pm

Not exactly the main point of this topic but about the Greece thing.
The greek people themselve's are proving to be the biggest thread to our money!. The goverment tries to put things right(But only because they are screwed if they don't) but the people are going insane over the reasonable expectation that they actually have to pay back the money they are borrowing(duh! that's why we call it borrowing!)
I don't have anything against sending money to Greece because as a trade nation the Netherlands are screwed if the Euro falls but the Greek people and some politicians have made it very clear that if its up to them Europe will recieve exactly ZERO Euro of they money that rightfully theirs. This is an extremely stupid stance because if that happends every single country will hate and distrust Greece. Personally i think that if Greece doesn't return our money because those assholes are afraid of fixing their mess then we should take it back!.
The whole thing makes it clear that the will of the majority isn't always what's good for a country.