Abortion

Postby Jay Feely » Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:57 pm

What are your thoughts about Abortion?
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

Re: Abortion

Postby mcsproot » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:42 am

I'm not a fan of it when it is treated like a form of contraception. As in, folks who don't wear a condom, contraceptive pill, implant or any other kind of contraceptive, but instead go to an abortion clinic if they get pregnant.

Other than that, I support abortion. Here is a few questions for any pro-lifers who read this.

1: Someone you care for is violently raped, and become pregnant from that rape. Are you going to tell them how wrong it is that they would not want to bear the child of their rapist?

2: DNA tests on the foetus find it has several genetic defects, which means it will be in constant pain and will die within a few hours of birth. Should a child really be brought into the world if that's going to be the fate of it?
23 year old guy from the UK.

Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

Re: Abortion

Postby NemesisPrime » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:16 am

I'm for it.

When the male is being careless and not wearing protection and causes his mate to get pregnant it should be his responsibility to care for that child but more often than not he ether leaves or just won't pay so in that case if the woman is unable to care for that child in a meaningful capacity I say abort it. I'd rather the child have a good childhood than grow up in an environment where they can't be cared for.

Another is if it's said the child is not developing correctly and will mostly die in a few hours after birth then yes they should, to answer Kmmi's question when that life is one that is marked by constant intense pain from not being born correctly and ontop of that not being able to function normally wouldn't you prefer the child be aborted rather have to live in that pain? It's the humane thing to do.
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

Re: Abortion

Postby xtc » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:14 am

OK, I've tried to keep out of this because my opinion is so extreme.
Murder is murder.

The problem is that I am not female and have never been/wiil be pregnant. I know that gender colours people's opinions.
However . . .
Would anyone have denied Tom Shakespeare's or Stephen Hawkins's right to life?

I regret being in the same camp as some religious rightists but, I repeat: murder is murder.
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: Abortion

Postby mikeybound » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:52 am

Personally, I feel like people are more focused on getting rid of the child then avoiding getting pregnant in the first place. Unless you've been raped, you already made your choice. I suppose weather abortion in rape cases is okay depends on weather the fetus is viewed as a person.
I mean seriously, are people really gonna associate that with their rapist? In 9 months it'll be a smiling, innocent infant who has a world of possibilities ahead of them and could grow up to be the nicest person you know. If you don't want it after it's born then there's always adoption.
The fact is, a person's a person. A fetus can't not count as a person when everyone goes through that stage. Any excuse for abortion could apply week after the child is born. You may as well justify infanticide. Which is pretty much what it is.

Re: Abortion

Postby xtc » Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:13 am

"Personally,
I mean seriously, are people really gonna associate that with their rapist?"

Yes, they bloody well are!!!

Please can we have a female perspective to put these arguments into a different context?
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: Abortion

Postby BelltwinJ0sh » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:28 am

I <3 abortions.

Re: Abortion

Postby xtc » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:32 am

O dear, I spy trouble!
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: Abortion

Postby mikeybound » Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:53 am

Okay, that was an insensitive choice of words. But when you wanna abort a child of rape, it feels like a sins of the father type thing. This wouldn't be the only case where something that's perfectly innocent in theory can remind you of something horrible. It feels like just another tragedy, abortion on top of rape.
Is it really unreasonable to hope that in 20 years time, a mother could say "I don't regret that one bit, cause it gave me you"?

Re: Abortion

Postby NemesisPrime » Fri Oct 24, 2014 2:55 pm

I just look at it from a women's rights pov but seeing as I lack the reproductive organs to produce a child I cannot say for sure. I echo xtc on this, we need a woman's perspective on this.

Also BelltwinJ0sh that was very tackful and rather blut.

I doubt you'd get off scott-free if you said that in public.
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

Re: Abortion

Postby Tieup1 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:31 pm

Women should have the right to have an abortion. It's their choice, whether its, medical, moral, or otherwise, it's their choice, it's their body, their life.

Re: Abortion

Postby FelixSH » Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:06 pm

For the interested, we already had a discussion about this topic in this thread. In short: Sometimes there might be a good reason for an abortion, and the pregnant woman is the one who probably knows best about that. It´s the woman who goes through the pregnancy, so it´s her decision within the period during which abortion is legal. Also, don´t consider a fetus from the start as a human being, so I also don´t consider it murder to abort the fetus during that time.
My main point is that it´s wrong to completely ban abortion, alone because some desperate pregnant women will abort (with or against their will) in some dangerous, illegal way. Also rape pregnancy and so on. There are situations where an abortion is the better (or less bad) way. I´m not clear on where the line is, but I like the rule we have here: Abortion in the first three months is legal, after that not.

And I, too, would like to read the opinions of our female members.

Re: Abortion

Postby mikeybound » Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:50 pm

Personally, I'm not too big a fan of the woman centered view of this. If there's a medical risk, of course she's the only thing worth considering when contemplating abortion. But just because it's happening to her body doesn't mean she's the only one a pregnancy affects. What if the man or other family wants the child and she just doesn't wanna tough it out for a few months? And I get it, pregnancy is tough. You've got bloating and hormones and the weights a pain in the joints, and there're a ton of restrictions on what you can consume or what you want you consume. But when someone could be cheating a man out of his child, you'd think comfort would take a backseat on priorities.
As for what is or isn't human, everyone in history went through a similar first three months, and if any of our parents tried to aborth we wouldn't have our lives.

Re: Abortion

Postby mcsproot » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:16 am

Kimmi wrote:Oh look mom, loaded questions for pro-lifers; I expected these! I'll simply answer both questions with a question. A life is a life; who are you to murder it?

Not directed at McSproot, just my opinion. You take life and try to define when it starts and where. You try to state that it isn't a life and disassociate yourself with the fact that there is a developing child in there. It's simple for some. It's not for those of us that cherish life in all its forms.

That is all.


The thing with the pro-life viewpoint I don't get is that if that is the view of lawmakers, then it begins to trample on female liberty.

As I said, why should a woman who has been raped, which is a very traumatic experience in the short and long term, then also be 'punished' further by having to rear the child of their rapist?

As to mikeybound, who said 'she just doesn't wanna tough it out for a few months'? You do realise that after 9 months of pregnancy, there is 20+ years worth of child rearing to follow? The total dependency years of the infant and toddler, the 'look at me ma I'm playing with cars' early childhood, the 'I hate you' teen years, followed by the bank account slaughtering college/university years if they take that route.

Pregnancy isn't a walk in the park either. Some women have a rather mild pregnancy, and there have been cases where the first the woman knew she was pregnant was when she had the child. For others, it is 9 months of hell. Feeling sick every waking moment, being unable to sleep comfortably once the bump appears, being unable to sleep at all due to a very active foetus using your stomach for soccer practice and so on. Often times that is worth it.

Also, let's not forget that contraception is never 100% proof. I have read reports of women becoming pregnant and giving birth to a healthy child despite having an implant fitted. Sometimes despite taking the contraceptive pill, the woman still ovulates. Not to mention that for some women, taking the pill long term can lead to permanent fertility damage. And let's not forget 'the old classic' of the condom breaking.

'But what if they give the child up for adoption instead of aborting the pregnancy' some of you may be asking. That is an option yes, but there's no end up bad news stories coming from people who have been raised by the state. Many children who end up needed adopted do not end up in a loving home, they spend their entire childohood either purely in state care or in foster families. Which for some may be even worse. You stay with a family just long enough to really learn to love them, then go back to state care, which can lead to serious issues with commitment and learning to love others later in life. And don't get me started on religious run care homes, especially Catholic ones based in Ireland or Britain.

The way I feel about abortion is this. If you're pro-life/against abortion, then don't have an abortion. Is it really going to affect you if Lucy on the other side of the country chooses to abort her rapist's child? Or if Angela in another city decides an abortion is a better option than a highly complex pregnancy that could result in death of both herself and the child? But on that note, that reminds me of a case in Ireland.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/n ... on-refusal

In Ireland, abortion is only allowed if a medical professional deems the woman's health to be at extreme risk. To summarise the article I have linked, the woman had a mid-pregnancy miscarriage. As the child began to rot and decay inside her body, it was still attached by the placenta, poisoning her own blood. Despite being in severe pain and begging for an abortion over a 3 day period, she was refused at every turn. And then she died from blood poisoning. THIS is the consequences of the state having an anti-abortion stance. In Britain, abortion was made legal to keep women safe, because as I'm sure we can all agree, if you are going to have an abortion, it is safer for a trained surgeon to perform it in a sterile environment, rather than someone in a back alley getting you drunk and shoving a heating coat hanger up your vagina.

I have no issues with people who are anti-abortion. If that's how you feel, don't have an abortion. You could say that my viewpoint is being forced onto others. To which I counter, with my stance I am giving women the choice to have an abortion if they want one, where-as an anti-abortion state-wide stance removes that choice.
23 year old guy from the UK.

Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

Re: Abortion

Postby FelixSH » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:40 am

mikeybound wrote:Personally, I'm not too big a fan of the woman centered view of this. If there's a medical risk, of course she's the only thing worth considering when contemplating abortion. But just because it's happening to her body doesn't mean she's the only one a pregnancy affects. What if the man or other family wants the child and she just doesn't wanna tough it out for a few months? And I get it, pregnancy is tough. You've got bloating and hormones and the weights a pain in the joints, and there're a ton of restrictions on what you can consume or what you want you consume. But when someone could be cheating a man out of his child, you'd think comfort would take a backseat on priorities.


It´s from my point of view not about comfort but about bodily autonomy. People have a right to do with their bodies whatever they want. Here I can see a case for the child, as, if we considere it human, it has a right to live, which might overrule the right of the mother for bodily autonomy. But I don´t see what right the father has that is equally important as that right, so I don´t considere him of importance for this question.

mikeybound wrote:As for what is or isn't human, everyone in history went through a similar first three months, and if any of our parents tried to aborth we wouldn't have our lives.


I think we already discussed this in the last thread. I would suggest to just agree to disagree here. We just have different definitions for what makes a human.

But this strict definitions aren´t really the main point, I think. As I said, sometimes there are situations where an abortion is the better choice, IMO for the mother and the child. Some women don´t see the cute baby, they see a symbol for a ruined life, which also will affect the children. So, just strictly saying "no abortion, period" ignores the situations where one would be the better alternative. Adoption, for example, is for the child a really shitty start into life. Yes, it might have a happy end. It also might have a godawful life.
And again, if someone wants to abort because she is so desperate, she will find a way. Punishing this people by making abortion illegal, so that they have to find other, more dangerous ways, seems like a pretty awful way of dealing with this problem.

Re: Abortion

Postby mikeybound » Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:24 am

So what if they might have a horrible life growing up? You seem to be saying that alone is worth aborting, yet I don't see any ruined childhoods being held against parents who never thought of aborting. When's the last time you've heard someone say "It would've been a mercy if they've never been born. Why didn't you get a doctor to take care of that?"
And yes, the father does have some right to the child. He has a responsibility to take care of his woman, provide financial support, educate himself on childcare and pregnancy, etcetera. If he does everything right and loves his unborn child, how is an abortion he's powerless to stop a good reward? If there's one aspect of feminism I'll never be able to tolerate, it's focusing on the woman's viewpoint to the exclusion of all else. It steamrolls over rational discussion to let her do whatever she wants. And you know what? A lot of people who want girls to abort "for their own goods" don't give a damn about their choice either. Got any protests for any parents who want their 17 year old daughter strapped to a table for one of these?
As for the Irland case, that was a poor example. The baby was miscarried and a simple sonogram would've shown that. How can pass be flawed when the example given has the people not following them?
As for making women pay for stuff like rape, I'd rather not talk about how you seem to think childbirth can be some type of punishment.
The fact is, pro abortion people can never view a fetus as alive. Then it'd have rights and stuff. So instead there's some arbitrary timetable where one day it's a parasitic lump of meat, and tomorrow it's a baby waiting to be born. That period was dialed back to the first 3 months, and in a few decades it could go to 5, and weather someone gets to be born can depend on the laws and calendar that year.
Sorry for the rant. Call me crazy, but I find the idea of my mom having literal life or death power over me kinda disturbing. You'd understand if you met her.

Re: Abortion

Postby NemesisPrime » Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:10 pm

mikeybound wrote:The fact is, pro abortion people can never view a fetus as alive. Then it'd have rights and stuff. So instead there's some arbitrary timetable where one day it's a parasitic lump of meat, and tomorrow it's a baby waiting to be born. That period was dialed back to the first 3 months, and in a few decades it could go to 5, and weather someone gets to be born can depend on the laws and calendar that year.
Sorry for the rant. Call me crazy, but I find the idea of my mom having literal life or death power over me kinda disturbing. You'd understand if you met her.


Because it is during the first 3 months. It has no brain, isn't even conscious much less alive. The 3 months period where a woman can get an abortion wasn't a timeline people just suddenly made up, it has scientific evidence behind it's logic. What you argue is just a slippery slope fallacy. After the first trimester the fetus begins to develop a functioning brain and in essence comes alive but the woman could still abort but her right to to is diminished because the state can force her to carry the child and after the third Trimester she has no say in the matter cause at that point the baby is a conscious, living being and while not entirely aware of itself it does have most of the normal attributes a baby has at that point.

I'm not calling you crazy but like most of us with a dick instead of vagina we're not really qualified on a comprehensive opinion, all we can go by is the data and observations during the pregnancy process. Also I'm sorry if that thought scares you but if your under 3 months pregnant and she wants to bail then you wouldn't know nor care cause you're not alive at that point or can comprehend what's being done.

mikeybound wrote: If there's one aspect of feminism I'll never be able to tolerate, it's focusing on the woman's viewpoint to the exclusion of all else. It steamrolls over rational discussion to let her do whatever she wants.


Where the hell did that come from? No one is saying we should focus on the woman's viewpoint and exclude all other factors cause guess what? It takes two to do the child-bearing dance and if the male feels like they can't take care of the child but the woman says she wants to keep it then the two of them are gonna have to hash it out and if he bails then she can force him to pay child support cause that baby was made from his DNA.
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

Re: Abortion

Postby FelixSH » Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:50 pm

mikeybound wrote:And yes, the father does have some right to the child. He has a responsibility to take care of his woman, provide financial support, educate himself on childcare and pregnancy, etcetera. If he does everything right and loves his unborn child, how is an abortion he's powerless to stop a good reward?


Reward? There is no reward for caring for the child when it is there. That´s your duty as a parent, mother or father. Again, there is not right for the father that is equally strong as the right for the mother to bodily autonomy. If you want me to change my mind, you need to argue against that, elsewise I will not change my mind. Tell me what the right of the father is that is hurt with an abortion and how it is as strong as the mothers right to bodily autonomy.

mikeybound wrote:A lot of people who want girls to abort "for their own goods" don't give a damn about their choice either. Got any protests for any parents who want their 17 year old daughter strapped to a table for one of these?


It should really be obvious that I find it equally disgusting if women are forced to abort. I said both times that I am pro choice, not pro abortion. I dislike abortions, but sometimes they are the better alternative. Also, if someone wants to force a woman or girl to abort, they will find a way. If abortion is illegal it will be just more dangerous. Abortions will happen. Period, there is nothing that you really can do about it. So make it at least save for the pregnant women. I also get the feeling that you think that this is somehow an easy decision for women. It never is, or at least not in most cases. Most pregnant women will think long and hard before going this step, after deciding that it is the best for the child and them. Because yes, they think about the prospective child, and if it will have a perspective in life.
And of course no one is complaining about mothers who give birth. Again, it´s their decision, there is nothing for anyone else to complain about. But there are certainly people, some who I know, who think it is irresponsible to bring a child into this world under certain circumstances. I also bet that some of these DO criticize a mother for giving birth, especially if they already have a lot of children and no work. Especially this is critizised all the time.
So, yes, I think sometimes it is in the best interest of the prospective child, who doesn´t even realize anything yet and will therefore not feel any pain, to not be born. I disagree with you that life is, no matter what, always preferable.

mikeybound wrote:As for making women pay for stuff like rape, I'd rather not talk about how you seem to think childbirth can be some type of punishment.


Why not? Too uncomfortable? In some cases it is basically a punishment (rape, security measures don´t work,...).

Also, agreed with NemesisPrime.

Re: Abortion

Postby jsherwood » Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:38 am

I don't want to have children yet so I really make sure there's strong contraception when I sleep at night. If I do conceive, well then I'll think through.

Re: Abortion

Postby mcsproot » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:06 am

Let me just address some of your points here mikeybound.

As someone who is pro assisted suicide, I tend to take a look at the quality of life, rather than the view of 'being alive is better than being dead'. Many people opt to take their own lives for a variety of reasons. While I imagine most will have some sort of mental illness, no doubt others are of sound mind and simply do not see their life as worth living any more, whether that is due to a crippling illness they have, or the pressures of life become too much (ie high school bullying). Yes, some people with the same illnesses do not wish to die because of it, and more power too them. I'm not 'pro killing terminally ill people', I'm pro-choice.

This point is rather off topic, but I think it helps demonstrate that abortion can be a good thing:

There was a woman who worked in the Nazi concentration camps who was supposed to report any pregnancies to her superiors, as well as ensure the woman and her foetus were kept healthy until they were called for. Problem was, she found out they were being used for terrifying experiments such as vivisections. She then vowed that no woman would become pregnant under her watch. While she couldn't prevent the pregnancies, she could detect them before they became obvious, as well as abort them. By aborting said pregnancies, she at least saved those women from a death by cruel medical experimentation. After the war had ended, she went on to work as a gynaecologist, and delivered many more healthy babies than the ones she killed.

I'm not sure if it's just a poor choice of words, or a reflection on your views as a whole, but I have to address the phrasing of 'He has a responsibility to take care of his woman, provide financial support'. This is certainly a traditional family view, of the mother staying at home raising the children while the father provides. There are quite a few cases of 'house husbands' these days however, those being where the father takes on the stay at home role, while the mother goes to work. I do see your point of view on how the choice of abortion is maybe too much in favour of the woman. I agree that the viewpoint of the father does need to be taken into consideration, and I'm sure most mothers to be who are considering an abortion do consider the father's point of view. However, when it comes down to it, it is her body and her ultimate decision. Are you suggesting that a father should be allowed to take some kind of legal action to prevent the mother of his child having an abortion? Just imagine for one second what it must feel like to be a pregnant woman in that situation, carrying a child you don't want to have but a lawyer got a judge to say 'no you can't do that'.

So surely if you're against forced abortions as you say, you must also be against forced to not having abortions? I too am against forced abortions, because the clue is in the name of the viewpoint: pro-CHOICE. Not pro-abortion, pro-choice. From my perspective, the general viewpoint of pro-lifers is 'I don't care how you feel, the fact you are alive/carrying a baby trumps all problems you have'.

I'm not sure if you saying 'As for making women pay for stuff like rape, I'd rather not talk about how you seem to think childbirth can be some type of punishment' is in reply to my point about rape and abortion. If it is, this is my reply to that. I'm not saying childbirth in general is a punishment, but giving birth to the child of your rapist can be. Imagine the scenario: You're a husband, and the police turn up at your door to tell you that your wife has been raped. A month later she finds she is pregnant, which you're both sure would be with the rapists child. Are you suggesting that a man should have to raise the child of his wife's rapist?

As for claiming my example from Ireland is a bad choice, I must disagree. My point there was to show that, like you said, the doctors were wrong. Because they were wrong in their diagnosis of the problem, a woman is now dead. If there wasn't a law that said 'only if a doctor thinks you are in danger can you have an abortion' she might still be alive today, maybe even fallen pregnant again and had a healthy baby.

As for being uncomfortable for your mother having life or death over you, she always has. The issue there is legality. I don't know her or you, so I don't know the specifics for you saying that. Nor do I know the abortion laws where you live. But really, in theory there would be nothing to stop her from having killed you as a baby. There have been documented cases of people wrongly going to jail due to being found guilty of murder on a baby that died of cot-death. Not to mention the advice of never sleeping with your baby due to the fact you may accidentally smother them. Aborting a foetus is a much more complicated and dangerous task than killing a born baby, especially considering how fragile they are. Heck, that reminds me of a drama I watched, where a family was being hounded by a lynch mod who believed the husband/father had killed someone. The mother was sitting in the nursery holding tightly onto the child to comfort it. When the police scared away the lynch mob, it was discovered that the mother had accidentally killed the baby by holding it too tightly into her chest, suffocating it. Fictional yes, but believable to me.

And for the record, I do see a foetus/embryo as alive. Does that mean it has a right to life? Yes. However, I have already listed several circumstances where respecting that right is not such a black and white issue. Although medical ethics formed only a small part of my education, it was still there. We addressed many issues as part of those classes, such as abortion and genetic modification. On that note, ethical arguments against genetic modification were things such as designer babies (ie altering the DNA to give it certain eye colour) and super-humans (DNA modified to make muscles stronger etc). However, the arguments for were issues such as being able to remove genetic illnesses such as cystic fibrosis, and how genetically modified viruses are being used in experiments such as stopping certain types of blindness and as a cancer treatment.

But in the end, my real argument comes down to this. Pro-choice. Not pro-abortion, pro-choice. Women should not be forced to have abortions, but neither should they be prohibited from having them.
23 year old guy from the UK.

Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

Re: Abortion

Postby jsherwood » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:32 am

My reasoning is that if you are pro-life, you have to be pro-life forever and also ensure that the life survives. Humans are not simply animals who screw around, leave and can leave their offspring to fend for themselves and forget their mothers. There's a responsibility on the people to care for the person they create, ie. both parties. On my former point of being pro-life forever, what's the point of not wanting to abort babies (planned or unplanned) but later supporting the death of others (directly or indirectly)through the support of illegal wars and proliferation of weapons, drugs, or other dangerous items? Why advocate the life of "babies" but allowing the death of others?

Re: Abortion

Postby Tieup1 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:55 am

I'm sure women who have an abortion, do it for the right reasons, owing to their circumstance.

Let the woman decide her own future, women should not be made to feel guilty for having an abortion.

Re: Abortion

Postby NemesisPrime » Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:15 am

I pretty much agree with the posts after mine. I'm pro-CHOICE, not pro-abortion. It really should be the woman's decision whether to abort or not and we should ensure the option to abort is available cause if they choose to and there's not a clinic where it can be done coughcoughrepublicanscoughcough she'll do it herself.

Regardless of what others think a woman does think long and hard about the ramifications of getting an abortion but if they do it's important that we do not shame them for it. It was their choice and while can disagree with it we don't need to insult her.
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

Re: Abortion

Postby mikeybound » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:43 pm

Are you really making this argument? So called pro-choicers ignore the fact that women already made a choice in most cases. Weather it's a planned pregnancy they changed their minds on or an accident, they had sex and didn't take the right precautions. Or they got that less than 1% chance of bad luck where the pill and condom failed.
As for rapists, there're self defense options, lethal and non lethal weapons, situational awareness, risk avoidance (protip, don't walk through Central Park at night). In the worst case scenario, an abortion based on the actions of another person just seems downright immoral. The fetus isn't it's father, and it was my understanding that holding people responsible for their wins was wrong. Can we honestly not emotionally distance two individuals from each other? Or at least intellectually.
The Irish example actually isn't good because the screw up wasn't with the law. The doctors screwed up, and if they properly diagnosed things than an abortion would've been perfectly acceptable by their laws. It's the kind of mistake mothers can make. The failing was human, not legal.
As for the father's rights, are we forgetting how it's his child? Even if he doesn't have to bear it, he's the one who has to go through the terrible twos. A pregnancy isn't the worst thing someone can God through. Even though it's impossible for me to experience it, there're objectivly worse things to go through for someone.
My main point is, there're so many preventive measures available, the more appropriate question seems to be why people even need them.

Re: Abortion

Postby Rachel_Tied » Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:09 pm

A pregnancy is not over in 9 months. It changes a woman's body forever. Bottom line is this, I respect everyone's opinions, but nobody... NOBODY... has the right to tell me what is going to happen with my body. That is my choice. If you do not believe in abortions or if you believe it's extinguishing a life then you can make the choice not to have one. All pro-choicers are saying is do not take that choice away from another person. I have been lucky enough to never be in the position where I have had to have an abortion, but I am not hesitant that if I got pregnant right now, that would be my choice. And before I have sex with anyone I am seeing, I make that clear, there are no grey areas in it, so if he is not ok with that, then we are not going to have sex. For those who are going to try to take a moral stand with me regarding the life of the fetus, please don't force your beliefs on others. I am not trying to force mine on you. And a side note to anyone who is going to go to the extreme and refer to it as murder or say all life is sacred, with all due respect, I hope you have never killed a mosquito or fly, for the sake of your own morals. Again, I respect your opinions, they are yours and you have every right to choose not to have an abortion and not to believe in it.

Re: Abortion

Postby mcsproot » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:02 pm

mikeybound wrote:Are you really making this argument? So called pro-choicers ignore the fact that women already made a choice in most cases. Weather it's a planned pregnancy they changed their minds on or an accident, they had sex and didn't take the right precautions. Or they got that less than 1% chance of bad luck where the pill and condom failed.
As for rapists, there're self defense options, lethal and non lethal weapons, situational awareness, risk avoidance (protip, don't walk through Central Park at night). In the worst case scenario, an abortion based on the actions of another person just seems downright immoral. The fetus isn't it's father, and it was my understanding that holding people responsible for their wins was wrong. Can we honestly not emotionally distance two individuals from each other? Or at least intellectually.
The Irish example actually isn't good because the screw up wasn't with the law. The doctors screwed up, and if they properly diagnosed things than an abortion would've been perfectly acceptable by their laws. It's the kind of mistake mothers can make. The failing was human, not legal.
As for the father's rights, are we forgetting how it's his child? Even if he doesn't have to bear it, he's the one who has to go through the terrible twos. A pregnancy isn't the worst thing someone can God through. Even though it's impossible for me to experience it, there're objectivly worse things to go through for someone.
My main point is, there're so many preventive measures available, the more appropriate question seems to be why people even need them.


Excuse me for a moment, but I really cannot believe that you're basically saying 'if a woman can't fight off her rapist it's her problem she became pregnant'. Really? Is that really your train of thought, or are you trying to play devil's advocate with any argument you can think of? Having a child is not some everyday task alongside doing the laundry and buying groceries. It's 9 months of a complicated medical condition followed by 20 years of upbringing. If a woman doesn't want a child, gets raped, then becomes pregnant, you're saying it's her fault because she wasn't on the pill just in case she got raped?

I can certainly see your point about that it isn't the fault of the child that it was conceived by rape. But I think in this case, the right of the mother-to-be to be able to choose the option to abort the pregnancy should take precedence. Rape is already a life changing event, like any major physical or mental trauma. Even taking out the responsibilities of parenthood, even looking at the child might trigger powerful flashbacks. Add on pre/post-natal depression and you have a woman barely able to take care of herself, nevermind an infant that requires constant care and attention. Yes, giving the child up for adoption is still an option, but personally I would hate to be that person when they find out their father is a rapist who doesn't know they exist and their mother doesn't want to acknowledge they exist.

But on the topic of rape, I don't know how much experience you've had with rape survivors, but I'm going to assume none for this. A friend of mine was raped three times by the same person in one night. Did she forget to pack a weapon with her (also, in the UK, it's illegal to carry any kind of weapon)? Did she walk through a back alley in the middle of the night? Was she wearing really slutty clothes? Was she passed out drunk? None of the above. She was wearing pyjamas, stone cold sober, staying the night with a guy she thought was a close friend. Thankfully for her, she didn't become pregnant. But not all rapes are the stereotypical ones of someone being grabbed in the park at night and raped in the bushes.

Honestly at this point, I could go onto a whole other argument about rape and societal views on it. But I'll just sum it up as saying, the victim is never at fault. It doesn't matter if they're nude and passed out drunk, you simply don't try and have sex with people in that situation.

I still stand by my Irish example. Yes, the doctors got it wrong and yes, if they had correctly diagnosed the problem she would have had an abortion. The fact still remains, if abortions were freely legal, she could have had one.

Also, I am not forgetting the rights of the father here. However, in a situation where the mother wants an abortion and the father does not, somebody has to not get their way. When the rights of one begin to impede on the rights of another, it gets complicated.

And yes, prevention is better than cure. But even if you take all of the precautions, you can still fall ill (no, I'm not calling pregnancy an illness). You can keep fit and healthy, wash your hands when you blow your nose, eat a healthy diet, do your best to avoid germ contact, but you can still get ill. The same goes with pregnancy. I don't know about you, but I doubt many people use multiple forms of contraception at a time. I would imagine most use just one. Just a condom, or just the pill, or just an implant etc.

You do also seem to be basing a lot of your argument on the pregnancy itself and ignoring other factors.
23 year old guy from the UK.

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Re: Abortion

Postby FelixSH » Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:06 pm

mikeybound wrote:Are you really making this argument? So called pro-choicers ignore the fact that women already made a choice in most cases. Weather it's a planned pregnancy they changed their minds on or an accident, they had sex and didn't take the right precautions. Or they got that less than 1% chance of bad luck where the pill and condom failed.
As for rapists, there're self defense options, lethal and non lethal weapons, situational awareness, risk avoidance (protip, don't walk through Central Park at night). In the worst case scenario, an abortion based on the actions of another person just seems downright immoral. The fetus isn't it's father, and it was my understanding that holding people responsible for their wins was wrong. Can we honestly not emotionally distance two individuals from each other? Or at least intellectually.
The Irish example actually isn't good because the screw up wasn't with the law. The doctors screwed up, and if they properly diagnosed things than an abortion would've been perfectly acceptable by their laws. It's the kind of mistake mothers can make. The failing was human, not legal.
As for the father's rights, are we forgetting how it's his child? Even if he doesn't have to bear it, he's the one who has to go through the terrible twos. A pregnancy isn't the worst thing someone can God through. Even though it's impossible for me to experience it, there're objectivly worse things to go through for someone.
My main point is, there're so many preventive measures available, the more appropriate question seems to be why people even need them.


I already made my point about the father. As you ignored that I don't see a point in saying more about that.

As for the victim blaming, that was really not cool. As said before, women have a right to dress however the want and walk wherever they want. The rapist is always 100 % at fault for what happens, the victim carries no fault. Therefor she is in no way responsible for a following pregnancy. This might not be the babies fault, but it's also not the fault of the mother. I don't see how one of the victims is so much more important than the other.

And again, yes, a rapechild will always remind the mother of her rapist. The mother will know best if she can deal with this or not. A rape is already bad enough, forcing a mother to get the child is nothing else than a very long punishment for something she had no control of.

Re: Abortion

Postby NemesisPrime » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:33 pm

mikeybound wrote:Are you really making this argument? So called pro-choicers ignore the fact that women already made a choice in most cases. Weather it's a planned pregnancy they changed their minds on or an accident, they had sex and didn't take the right precautions. Or they got that less than 1% chance of bad luck where the pill and condom failed.
As for rapists, there're self defense options, lethal and non lethal weapons, situational awareness, risk avoidance (protip, don't walk through Central Park at night). In the worst case scenario, an abortion based on the actions of another person just seems downright immoral. The fetus isn't it's father, and it was my understanding that holding people responsible for their wins was wrong. Can we honestly not emotionally distance two individuals from each other? Or at least intellectually.
The Irish example actually isn't good because the screw up wasn't with the law. The doctors screwed up, and if they properly diagnosed things than an abortion would've been perfectly acceptable by their laws. It's the kind of mistake mothers can make. The failing was human, not legal.
As for the father's rights, are we forgetting how it's his child? Even if he doesn't have to bear it, he's the one who has to go through the terrible twos. A pregnancy isn't the worst thing someone can God through. Even though it's impossible for me to experience it, there're objectivly worse things to go through for someone.
My main point is, there're so many preventive measures available, the more appropriate question seems to be why people even need them.

Yeah, this is soundling like that guy in congress who said that if it was a "legitimate rape" that the female body had ways to shut that down. Victim-blaming is not cool. Like at all. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that because she couldn't fight her rapist off she deserves to go through 9 months of pregancy and 20+ years of RAISING the child that she would most likely be VERY ill-equipped to handle but no it's her choice to be raped is what you were saying.

And you're also contradicting yourself cause in a prior post you made an argument the the father had rights to the child but now you say they don't so which is it?

Dude, I'm sorry but you are very ill-informed and your arguments fall apart at the slightest scrutiny. I shall reiterate for you: We're not pro-abortion, we're pro-choice and what a woman does with her body is her business and we shouldn't force them to do something they otherwise wouldn't cause of ideology and take away and restrict their choices.
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

Re: Abortion

Postby Outta.this.place » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:50 am

My girlfriend and I were going to have a baby but she had a miscarriage. The way it worked out though was slow and they knew it was going to die before it was born. She had to have an abortion to end it early and if there wernt abortion clinics in our town we would have had to travel. If they were not available anywhere though what could we have done? She would have medical problems herself. I'm just saying I was pretty against it until It had to happen to my family personally.

Re: Abortion

Postby jsherwood » Mon Nov 03, 2014 12:12 pm

Men should try bleeding every month before thinking its about what women ought not to do or do. Again, allowing the "baby" to live does not make you a moral or just person.