Immigrants

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat May 23, 2015 8:46 am

Saw an article today about immigrant children in the Netherlands wanting to be better integrated in dutch society by having more white children as classmates in their schools. The comment section seems filled with haters in response.
http://news.yahoo.com/dutch-immigrant-k ... 06783.html
What i cannot understand is why there is so much hatred for immigrants. Every one of us has ancestors who were immigrants at some point... not just Americans but Europeans too. And the responses all talk as if all the immigrants were there there illegally. WTF?!?
Am i the only one who feels outraged by all this - especially this shabby treatment of innocent children?! Or is this article exaggerating the problem?
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Re: Immigrants

Postby drawscore » Sat May 23, 2015 9:21 am

I think this is a good thing. It's a far cry from this country, where many immigrants have no desire to be integrated into American society. Mexican and other Latin American immigrants, instead of learning English, demand we provide services in Spanish. Immigrants from Middle East areas want us to adopt or allow Muslim (shariah) law. Many of them thumb their noses at our laws, and cross our borders illegally, or overstay their visas.

We should be open to immigrants. They are a big part of who and what we are. as Americans. However, those who violate our laws, are nothing more than common criminals, and should be treated as such.

There are those that might regard this as harsh, but consider this: If someone broke into your house, demanded that you deal with him in his language, demanded that you feed and clothe him and his family, send his kids to school at your own expense, and provided little or nothing in return, would you not be a little bit miffed?

Drawscore
Last edited by drawscore on Sat May 23, 2015 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Immigrants

Postby Kyle » Sat May 23, 2015 9:24 am

Yahoo articles comment sections will make you think humanity has completely lost all sense. This article is just another example.

Re: Immigrants

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat May 23, 2015 9:47 am

Kyle wrote:Yahoo articles comment sections will make you think humanity has completely lost all sense. This article is just another example.

I just hope this is more a perception than actual reality. Sometimes i can't help but wonder.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Immigrants

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat May 23, 2015 9:57 am

drawscore wrote: However, those who violate our laws, are nothing more than common criminals, and should be treated as such. Drawscore

I get where you're coming from with that and it may surprise you that i'm in basic agreement with that idea (though there is the matter of the fact that historically the southwest was Mexican territory until we stole it from Mexico on a pretext).
The main problem imo isn't the immigrants; they're just a symptom of a much larger problem. The real problem is, simply, that life in Mexico for the Mexicans su... uhh, stinks. I know it's not our problem per se that life is so miserable there, but we're still paying for it nonetheless. If life there was more comparable to our own, we wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem; for basically the same reason we don't have a (noticeable at least) one with Canada. People would be content to live there. Other than that modern-day version of the Great Wall of China that Republicans want to waste resources building and maintaining though, I'm at a loss for a sensible solution.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Immigrants

Postby Chris12 » Sat May 23, 2015 1:15 pm

I don't think this situation is comparable to immigration in the past. The immigrants to America were mostly Brits and other Europeans who founded the colonies that would become the US. The Netherlands gained a lot through immigration at its founding but those were from Belgium and France, nations with mostly the same cultural baggage.

The new immigrants come from nations and lifestyle not compatible with western value's and thus both sides need to get used to each other. There is a lot of difference between them and that makes it hard for them to understand each other.

The immigrants don't think they are welcomed when they meet hostility and a failing to understand them as well as the rise of parties founded at the promise to kick them out while the native population think the newcomers are pampered to an unfair extend and don't take the effort to immigrate properly. Neither are mistaken in this.
The native population aren't very welcoming but when compared to other groups the immigrants from the middle east and north Afrika AREN'T immigrating properly. Chinese, Indians, Indonesians, none of these groups are failing to integrate to this extend.

This is a chicken and egg story but I do believe the later strengthens the former rather then the other way around. If they integrated properly in larger numbers most people having a low opinion of immigrants will lack the reason to do so.

And if I'm honest...the Islamic immigrants do behave with a certain entitlement that breeds hostility. They do seem to think freedom of speech should do toned down a notch when it comes to themselves and get angry when that's not the case. It would be in good taste not to depict Mohamed for example since it upset them but they have no place to demand that, yet they do. Comedians taking shots at them aren't appreciated or even brushed off as a joke and they seem so quick to be offended while at the same time needing to clean up their act. Its not a good combo.

I think the article is exaggerating a bit. With the exception of the hard core PVV voters I don't see outright hatred to immigrants. Its more apathy , annoyance and frustration and occasionally anger. Colored kids and white ones do get along when interacting. Kids at highschool age are pretty racism free as far as I experience. Large parts of them just live past each other.

Re: Immigrants

Postby Kyle » Sat May 23, 2015 3:36 pm

Jason Toddman wrote:
Kyle wrote:Yahoo articles comment sections will make you think humanity has completely lost all sense. This article is just another example.

I just hope this is more a perception than actual reality. Sometimes i can't help but wonder.


I don't doubt many people feel the way they do, but having spent a little time on Yahoo before, I'm convinced some people just try to see if they can shock and offend as many people as possible.

Re: Immigrants

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat May 23, 2015 4:19 pm

Kyle wrote:I don't doubt many people feel the way they do, but having spent a little time on Yahoo before, I'm convinced some people just try to see if they can shock and offend as many people as possible.

I have no doubt that you are right, but that kind of attitude mystifies me as much as racism does. I offend enough people by pure accident (and feel bad enough even about that), usually with my frank bluntness, to ever have a desire to do it on purpose. My frequent disagreements with Drawscore included.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Immigrants

Postby jsherwood » Sun May 24, 2015 12:00 am

Go to Singapore, they welcome immigrants by the thousands.

Re: Immigrants

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun May 24, 2015 8:46 am

Actually I've always wanted to visit places far away like that. But now that I finally have the money to do so I no longer have the health.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Immigrants

Postby Jason Toddman » Tue May 26, 2015 12:11 pm

Found this article a while ago. It pretty much matches my viewpoint on the matter.
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/231552/ ... migration/
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Immigrants

Postby Kyle » Tue May 26, 2015 6:03 pm

Jason Toddman wrote:Found this article a while ago. It pretty much matches my viewpoint on the matter.
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/231552/ ... migration/


Poor reasoning. By that standard the Native Americans should shut up about all the wrongs white people did since they had participated in killing each other off long before the Europeans arrived. Unless you're one of those people who think Native American wars were more "pure" than white people wars (yes, I have actually heard that argument made before).

On that note, the article almost treats Mexico as if it is a country that's just always existed since the dawn of time. How does Robyn Pennacchia think Mexico was founded? Some Europeans came along, conquered a bunch of Native Americans, took their land to establish a colony, which eventually declared independence...is this sounding familiar to any other Americans? Obviously the details are different, but the overall history has a lot of similarities.

Just to be clear, I do think the United States' immigration policies need a drastic overhaul, and I do think there is much more whining than anything actually being done to fix the issue. Some of the things noted in the article are certainly true (the Mexican-American War is among the least justifiable conflicts the US ever got involved in). But it's an example of half-ass done history and inconsistent reasoning.

This brings me back to a point I think I've mentioned here before. There is almost no place on Earth that hasn't been acquired through violence and conquest. If we're going to say "such and such people were here first" it's going to take a very long time to wade back far enough through history to put everyone in the right place.

Re: Immigrants

Postby Jason Toddman » Tue May 26, 2015 7:33 pm

What you say is quite true. We took from the Mexicans who took from the Indians who took from previous Indians and so on. There's hardly a place in the world people inhabit where invaders have not taken over land held by someone else. Europe itself (including Britain) is a prime example of this. So is Palestine and Israel; nonetheless Zionist people use this logic to demand sovereignty over the so-called Holy Land.
However I think you misunderstood a major point. NO one is saying give the land back to the Indians or Mexicans; only that we should cut them some slack. One reason they are so impoverished is because white Americans took everything they had worth the having. Not the only reason of course, but we were responsible for enough of it so that we should at least try to show some remorse for it. But most white Americans (and Europeans too) feel too self-entitled and privileged to even consider such an idea.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Immigrants

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed May 27, 2015 8:11 am

If you liked the last article you'll just love this one. Otherwise you'll probably hate it.
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/27/8618261/am ... aps-truths
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...