Paris, France attack

Postby Jay Feely » Wed Jan 07, 2015 7:10 pm

Comic Writer murdered, 11 killed with him. Paris, France seeking the shooters.
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby xtc » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:56 am

Je suis Charlie
B6wb6lzIYAAWia1.png
Cartoon by Carlos Latuff

I believe that, if you choose to tweet/retweet, Carlos ill be delighted.
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

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Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Chloé The Librarian Extraordinaire » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:53 am

Jay Feely wrote:Comic Writer murdered, 11 killed with him. Paris, France seeking the shooters.

4 Comic artists murdered, 8 slain with them. It is a very sad day, one wherestupid masked and armed bigotry takes over free will and humor.
I grew up reading these people's work and y feel like some part of my life was stolen.
This was an act of war, this morning a young policewoman was killed, maybe by a copycat. Who's going to be next ? How many times before someone bursts into my lib and starts burning my books ?

'While the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there ? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be ? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense... Last day some fine people were murdered, their only crime was trying to remind the world that fairness, justice, and freedom are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you've seen nothing, if the crimes of the zealots remain unknown to you, then I would suggest you allow the seventth of January to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one year from tonight, outside the gates of every places of cult , and together we shall give them a seventh of january that shall never, ever be forgot. '

Thanks to Alan Moore for this one !

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby jsherwood » Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:05 am

I thought Paris in America since someone thought Air Asia flight is the same as Malaysian Airlines.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby chadmc90 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:35 am

jsherwood wrote:I thought Paris in America since someone thought Air Asia flight is the same as Malaysian Airlines.


Would you stop bringing that up? Why are you so fixated on this?
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Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Jay Feely » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:56 am

jsherwood wrote:I thought Paris in America since someone thought Air Asia flight is the same as Malaysian Airlines.


not funny, people trying to mourn.
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Chris12 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:39 pm

Yesterday hearing this made me tire so much about the failings of immigration, particularity about but not limited to the ones immigrating.
Today however I think its rather heartwarming how Europe is handling this. From Paris to Berlin from Amsterdam to Rome people are on the streets not only to protest the action but to tell France we are all there for her and that's sweet.

I suppose we can take some comfort in the thought that at the end of the day these kinds of people aren't an active threat to western civilization but merely the last spasm's of a soon to be corpse terrified of the time we live in today and even more terrified of tomorrow. The only future their philosophy has is to die out.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby jonson000001 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:21 pm

We will not let Them shut us! Terror can not win!

je suis charlie

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Chloé The Librarian Extraordinaire » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:03 am

The two terrorists are cornered into some kind of factory. They have taken one mn hostage.
Bad guys anre no more what they once were. Everey body could have told them taht it was a lovely damsel they should have taken... And while waiting for the impending end they could have practiced their rope tying skills...
Dweebs !

Jokes aside here in France every body is stuck to their radio/tv waiting for the end of tis sick sad story.
Unfortunately it looks like they will not surrender without a fight.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby viking » Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:09 am

once again some stupid terrorist has committed a crime without any meaning to it.
world trade center.
Utøya.
and now this...

i grew up with French comics and when i first heard about this i felt very angry.
excuse me if my French is wrong, but like Obelix would have said: ils sont fous ces terroristes.
Once a scout, always a perverted pyromaniac with a fetish for knives and duct tape

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Chloé The Librarian Extraordinaire » Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:29 am

Your French is quite right and the quote is very nicely done.
Last instalment. Another hostile takeover in paris. Another terrorist, maybe two are entrenched in a jewish superstore with 5 more hostages.
Something rotten is cooking !

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Chloé The Librarian Extraordinaire » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:02 am

Shots have been fired in the factory where the attackers of Charlie Hebdo were hidding !
It looks like GIGN/RAID (French SWAT) men are lauching the assault against the terrorists.
Last edited by Chloé The Librarian Extraordinaire on Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Chloé The Librarian Extraordinaire » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:21 am

The 2 terrorrists behind Charlie Hebdo's attack just have been killed by the police. The hostage is safe.
In the meantime the one who was in the jewish superstore has been "neutralized" don't know if he's dead or alive.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby SelenaGfan » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:10 am

The murderer in the Kosher store is dead as well as 3 hostages. I am glad they killed all 3 terrorists.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby drawscore » Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:57 pm

They ought to take these idiots' bodies, and bury them under six feet of pig shit. Their 72 virgins will all be as old as, and look like, Helen Thomas. Then, take everyone that worshiped at the same mosque(s) with these animals, and deport them back to wherever they came from, raze the mosque(s), and put up (a) pork BBQ diner(s) in its (their) place(s). And any Muslim that complains, deport their asses, too! Preferably to a small active volcanic island in the middle of the ocean.

Drawscore

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:04 pm

drawscore wrote:They ought to take these idiots' bodies, and bury them under six feet of pig shit. Their 72 virgins will all be as old as, and look like, Helen Thomas. Then, take everyone that worshiped at the same mosque(s) with these animals, and deport them back to wherever they came from, raze the mosque(s), and put up (a) pork BBQ diner(s) in its (their) place(s). And any Muslim that complains, deport their asses, too! Preferably to a small active volcanic island in the middle of the ocean.

Drawscore

That's your solution? Answer targeted terrorism with more widespread and random terrorism?

The burial of the terrorists in pig shit is a noxious enough idea, but lumping everyone who happened to attend the same mosque with no other evidence of criminal activity is just plain wrong. While I myself feel lots less liberal about Muslims (and have since the Iran Hostage situation way back in 1979) than i do about other ethnic/religious groups, a pogrom against muslims in general just isn't the answer. Moral considerations aside, there are just too damned many of them in the world and they're spread all over the place. Stirring up more hatreds than ever is the last thing we should be doing!

My own city is having a large influx of Somalian immigrants. Normally i hate to sound racist, but quite frankly I don't like them; no one around here I know of here does. They're rude, arrogant, seem to commit 50% of the crimes around here despite being well less than 5% of the population, and seem to incorporate all the worst stereotypes whites have ever had about blacks. They're unpleasant enough to have around without our engaging in tactics such as you espouse.

I honestly don't know what the best solution to the problem is. I just know that your idea is something I'd want to have nothing to do with.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby jonson000001 » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:12 am

drawscore wrote:They ought to take these idiots' bodies, and bury them under six feet of pig shit. Their 72 virgins will all be as old as, and look like, Helen Thomas. Then, take everyone that worshiped at the same mosque(s) with these animals, and deport them back to wherever they came from, raze the mosque(s), and put up (a) pork BBQ diner(s) in its (their) place(s). And any Muslim that complains, deport their asses, too! Preferably to a small active volcanic island in the middle of the ocean.

Drawscore


NO.
Tish is not the way. As an Israeli who (unfortunately) know how to live with Terror. I know how it is to live in a feeling of constant fear. Terror is base on hate, and nothing but hate. You can not make more people hate you, it will couse more and more ordinary French Muslims to become a terrorist.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby xtc » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:34 am

Send them back? They were FRENCH!
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby NemesisPrime » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:49 am

drawscore wrote:They ought to take these idiots' bodies, and bury them under six feet of pig shit. Their 72 virgins will all be as old as, and look like, Helen Thomas. Then, take everyone that worshiped at the same mosque(s) with these animals, and deport them back to wherever they came from, raze the mosque(s), and put up (a) pork BBQ diner(s) in its (their) place(s). And any Muslim that complains, deport their asses, too! Preferably to a small active volcanic island in the middle of the ocean.

Drawscore

I agreed with you up until the point where you said to deport everyone who worshiped at that mosque then bulldoze it and deport anyone who disagrees.

The ones who did the deed are one thing but to drag everyone else in even though they had NOTHING to do it and would more than likely condemn such acts is quite another. To lump an entire group with a few radicals is stereotypical.

And deport them? They're french nationals!
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Chapelier Fou/ Mad Hatter » Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:29 pm

I don't think the world needs any more martyr, i see three french citizen who killed many human being, now those terrorists are dead, the battle might be finish, but scars will remain in french society, then about their religious belief i don't care, i am twenty two years old and i've been living in France for twenty years ( i spent two years near London ) i've grown up in a << laïc >> ( the constitution seperates any religions from the state) state which make religion a personnal belief not a common, religion can be use for political purposes, clergy people try to do it, it doesn't matter when they respect the rule of the secular law, but when they fall into " intégrisme " ( a intransigent attitude in political doctrine ) the debate and the negociation aren't possible anymore.

At last Charlie Hebdo was attacked because it was the symbol of the freedom to blasphemate, ah the Life of Brian :quirk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk

Enjoy
Image
I am a native frenchspeaker not an englishspeaker, so i might make some huge mistakes in grammar. Sorry

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby drawscore » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:40 pm

The theory about the mosques, is that is where radicalization occurs 99% of the time, mostly through radical imams. And, just as you fight "fire with fire," fighting terror with terror, while distasteful. is effective. It's been done in the past, and it's worked. There are other ways to go, and using their own terrorist tactics against them, should be a last resort, but you don't take it off the table, and you especially don't announce that it's off the table.

The theory about deportation, is that if they want to live under sharia law, send them somewhere where sharia law is the law of the land. They will be very happy, I'm sure.

Drawscore

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:19 pm

drawscore wrote:The theory about the mosques, is that is where radicalization occurs 99% of the time, mostly through radical imams. And, just as you fight "fire with fire," fighting terror with terror, while distasteful. is effective. It's been done in the past, and it's worked. There are other ways to go, and using their own terrorist tactics against them, should be a last resort, but you don't take it off the table, and you especially don't announce that it's off the table.

The theory about deportation, is that if they want to live under sharia law, send them somewhere where sharia law is the law of the land. They will be very happy, I'm sure.

Drawscore

And where mosques are found where radicalization does occur, I agree that they should be shut down. But simply shutting down all mosques where a terrorist was known to frequent is not sufficient proof. Guilt by association has led to the punishment of all too many innocent people. Investigations should be conducted first.
I'm willing to bet you even side with Dick Cheney on the whole what-is-or-isn't-torture business as well, don't you? Imo that mofo rates somewhere around 4 (if not a 5) on your political clock.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby viking » Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:16 am

people always have to point fingers at something, in this case it's the religion of Islam.
what people seem to forget is that the terrorists aren't exactly representing the religion they believe in. most Muslims are against terrorism.
muslims all over the world are claiming that the terrorists from al-qaida and ISIS are not really acting like Muslims, they are doing the work of the devil.
like the book says: Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

10703864_10154609925315367_4370687824943614296_n.jpg


yes, there has been a lot of bullshit going through the years thanks to religion.
Christianity has a long list:
- the crusades.
- KKK.
- abortion clinic bombers.
- the IRA.
- clergy rape.
- attacking homosexuals.
and that is just mentioning the most famous things that has happened in the name of the Christian church.
the irony is that Jesus said: Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone.
so techinacally, those who did these things are the ones going to hell.
even i know that, and i am not exactly the kinda guy you'll see in church.

my point is...
people need to stop blaming the religion and understand that in the end, HUMANS are the ones doing this.
they don't even have to be muslims. for fuck sake, the biggest terror attack that have happened in my country was performed by one Norwegian man who wanted to get the Muslims out of the country. so he decided to place a bomb in the middle of our capital, then he went to a political youth camp and shot a bunch of teenagers. in total he took 77 lives, the average age of the victims were between 16 and 18 years old, the youngest person who got killed was only 14.
yes, there are a lot of Muslim immigrants in my country that should have been sent out, but there sure as fuck are a bunch of Norwegians that should have been sent the hell out of my country as well.
and i think most of you who says that you want those immigrants out could say the same thing about where you live.
Once a scout, always a perverted pyromaniac with a fetish for knives and duct tape

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Chris12 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:44 am

I think its to easy the say religion doesn't have anything to do with it. The terrorist themselves would beg to differ.
Charlie mocked all ways of life, Christians, Muslim, right and left wingers yet only one group decided to respond with murder, murder that not the entire group seems to denounce. That does speak poorly of them.
And the thing is that the terrorist aren't wrong in a theoretical sense, they haven't poorly read the Koran or the Hadith's and came to completely off base conclusions. They base their idea's on select passages to create a very puritan view of Islam, one that lacks any sense of historical progression and logic but its a view workable in the frame the Islam provides them just like the puritan Christians who mostly stopped existing after centuries of enlightenment. While its certainly not the majority of the Muslim that subscribe to these view it can garner either understanding or outright sympathy.

For the most part I think youth being drawn to terrorism is a matter of integration, the lack of integration mostly. Who's fault is that?
Well, both sides carry some blame. The locals of Europe aren't always very welcome and great numbers being drawn to far right parties is probably incredible creepy to people already feeling like they don't belong.

But at the end of the day it are the Muslims themselves that don't integrate properly. A great number of them withdraw from their new societies, don't learn the langues and seem to have a low esteem of western value's This is a chicken and egg story but I do believe the later strengthens the former rather then the other way around. If they integrated properly in larger numbers most people having a low opinion of immigrants will lack the reason to do so.
Withdrawing from society also strengthens terrorism by increasing the recruitment pool. They aren't part of western civilization despite living there and that breeds discontent. I'd say its for a large part self inflicted isolation.
The problems of poor interrogations are a Muslim problem. No other culture is having such a hard time to adjust and so many failures to do so. I don't recall ever hearing about a problem about east Asian or Indian immigrants and colonial history makes European nations have (admittingly smaller) minorities from those regions to...which is something easy to forget as they do integrate properly.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:47 am

Chris12 wrote:I think its to easy the say religion doesn't have anything to do with it. The terrorist themselves would beg to differ.

So would many of the others Viking cited. The KKK for instance used to promote hatred of Catholics (and immigrants from Catholic countries) as much as it did blacks. Abortion protestors cite a right to life for fetuses (something the Bible itself never mentions) and yet do not mind interfering with clinics to the point of murder and causing wanton property damage (which the Bible clearly condemns).
Thing is, a lot of the discrimination we see happening today is based largely on religious ideology. People condemn gayness more because the Bible condemns it than for any other reason (personal distaste being secondary and fostered by the religious preaching in many cases).
What these people forget is that the same Bible that condemns homosexuality also condemns working on the Sabbath (Saturday), eating pork and lobster, religious tolerance, and many other things we take as everyday occurences... and insists on death by stoning for the perpetrators of each offense! Well now, if we did that most of us would be dead now!!
With a few exceptions, I think Richard Dawkins has it right in his book The God Delusion; society would be better off without religion. I think he takes it a bit too far in places, but for the most part I think he's spot on.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Kyle » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:10 am

viking wrote:people always have to point fingers at something, in this case it's the religion of Islam.
what people seem to forget is that the terrorists aren't exactly representing the religion they believe in. most Muslims are against terrorism.
muslims all over the world are claiming that the terrorists from al-qaida and ISIS are not really acting like Muslims, they are doing the work of the devil.
like the book says: Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

10703864_10154609925315367_4370687824943614296_n.jpg


yes, there has been a lot of bullshit going through the years thanks to religion.
Christianity has a long list:
- the crusades.
- KKK.
- abortion clinic bombers.
- the IRA.
- clergy rape.
- attacking homosexuals.
.


Actually, people do tend to judge Christians by most of the examples you just gave, with the KKK and the IRA being the only real exceptions, and these probably largely because they don't get much attention in general anymore. You can bet if there were just a few Christians who went out and shot up a shopping mall specifically in the name of God to kill "sinners" all Christians would before long be judged by that standard by some people. There are more than a few people who still judge Christians of today by things like the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades of hundreds of years ago so there's no reason to think otherwise.

(If you don't believe what I'm saying, a bit of it has been done on this very thread.)

This is in no way suggesting it is right to judge Muslims, or any group, by the worst of the bunch. Obviously, most Muslims do live with others peacefully. But, that being said, I do wonder, just what is it about Islam that so many Muslims (or at least, people who claim to be Muslims) do turn to terrorist activities? I'm not really sure there's close to a comparable situation right now.

I should point out I don't agree with Drawscore's post at all. Guilt by association would make all of us guilty of some bad stuff at one point or another.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby wataru14 » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:54 am

While more Muslims may be winning the "Behaving Badly" award right now, their beliefs are not significantly more violent and horrifying than the other Abrahamic religions. The problem stems from a lack of secular Muslim-majority nations. Christianity has been kept on a short leash by secular governments in the West for hundreds of years, and (in general) we have prospered for it. In the US, that leash is being given way too much slack recently and look what has been happening. Traditionally Muslim-majority nations have had religion and politics in bed together for so long that it is hard to tell where one stops and the other starts. Muslim-majority states also tend to have overwhelmingly Muslim majorities (Egypt/Iran/Somalia/Pakistan are all over 95% Muslim and Indonesia is over 80%), so many people have no firsthand exposure to other belief systems. As a result they become insular and this tarnishes the worldviews of the people who live there enough that when the emigrate somewhere in the West, they do not know how to accept secular society when they see one. They have no concept of how a thing should be. So they retreat into familiar territory: religion. As they wrap themselves more and more in religion, they start to come more and more into conflict with secular society and they reach a breaking point: either abandon everything you have every believed in and that you define a lot of your identity from, or radicalize.

“When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late.” - Bene Gesserit axiom

There are three ways to prevent radicalization, and all must be done simultaneously and with equal vigor. 1) Education. Radical religion has no greater enemy than education. As a whole, religious fervor tends to predominate in areas where public education is lacking, and terrorist groups are quite obviously threatened by education (Boko Haram? Malala?) 2) Income equality. Poverty and religion go hand in hand. Other than the US (which has always had some kind of sick strange love affair with religious conservatism), the richer the people who live in a nation are, and the smaller the gap between rich and poor, the less hold religion has over public life (Japan, Canada, Czech Republic, Norway, Sweden). 3) Societal Integration. The more closed off a group is, the more they will retreat from the mainstream and that is a recipe for radicalism. The more exposure people have to other ideas and cultures, and the more they deal with them in their everday lives, the less likely they are to radicalize.

Personally, I am an atheist. And I'm as rabid an anti-theist as you are likely to find. Nothing would make me happier than to see every church, temple, synagogue and mosque closed for business forever and turned into museums to belief systems no one holds anymore. But if that is to happen, it must come from people deciding to move forward on their own. You cannot force someone to give up bad beliefs. Trying to do that just makes things worse. People must come to the realization themselves that the beliefs are bad and they must choose to given them up on their own. Have you ever tried to ween a baby off a pacifier? If you just take it away and say "this is done now," you'll get screaming, crying, and kids sticking anything they can find in their mouths as a replacement. You have to convince the kid to realize they don't need it anymore and they can give it up on their own.

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:07 am

Kyle wrote: This is in no way suggesting it is right to judge Muslims, or any group, by the worst of the bunch. Obviously, most Muslims do live with others peacefully. But, that being said, I do wonder, just what is it about Islam that so many Muslims (or at least, people who claim to be Muslims) do turn to terrorist activities? I'm not really sure there's close to a comparable situation right now.


I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that, unlike the believers of other major religions, many if not most Muslims live under what is practically a theocracy now. Sharia Law is little different from trying to live under the same Law the Jews used to live under in the Old Testament.

People think the Ten Commandments are the basis of our current laws, but they aren't; since breaking any one of them was supposed to call for a penalty of death by stoning and most of them (except for murder, theft, and perjury in a court of law) aren't even considered illegal these days. But those who live under Sharia Law essentially live in a theocracy, and their clerics keep drilling it into their heads that non-believers (of Islam of course) should be killed, and that the USA and its allies are enemies of Islam.

Christians used to believe the same thing in the Dark Ages. It wasn't until the Renaissance and the Reformation got under way and the Church no longer had much say in official governmental policies that most Christians got past this nonsense.

Hell, if you read the Bible, it's easy to see that the Jews once were exactly the same way. Many of the conflicts they engaged in (especially with the other ten tribes of Israel to the north and later with the Samaritans - who were simply Jews who'd kept the old time religion in its original form rather than corrupt it with Persian mythology like the returning captives had done) were based mainly on the same sense of religious and moral superiority over everyone around them than the Islamic Extremists are expressing to the world now. it was only after they were driven out of their homeland by the Romans in 70 AD and forced to live among other peoples that they learned tolerance for other religions (if only because they were smart enough not to invite persecution on themselves, and even then they got persecuted a lot and learned what it was like when the shoe was on the other foot).

Until this same level of enlightenment reaches the believers of Islam,things are never going to improve.

Our policies of interference in the Middle East - itself often based on religious reasons - hasn't helped our relationships with the Muslim world either and may in fact have been a major contributor to starting the whole bloody mess almost a century ago.

Imo we should find alternative sources of energy for two reasons: 1. to control human induced climate change and 2. so we can tell those $%#@$ Arabs to clean up their house or we'll clean it for them without having to worry about stinking oil embargoes.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:17 am

wataru14 wrote:While more Muslims may be winning the "Behaving Badly" award right now, their beliefs are not significantly more violent and horrifying than the other Abrahamic religions. The problem stems from a lack of secular Muslim-majority nations. Christianity has been kept on a short leash by secular governments in the West for hundreds of years, and (in general) we have prospered for it.


Yes, precisely the point I was trying to make, but you just narrowly beat me to it. cheers
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Paris, France attack

Postby Chloé The Librarian Extraordinaire » Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:12 pm

Shame on you French people !
How dare you march for liberty alongside Bongo, Nétanyahou, Abbas, Davutoglu, Orban and some others...
You just managed to prove worldwide how stupid anf gullible you are.
You'll never learn...

:(