Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby drawscore » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:46 am

. . . . . In Orlando, FL, this a.m. It's been all over the news. More than 20 dead, and close to 50 injured.

The shooter is reported to have links to radical Islam, and I'm sure everyone knows Islam's opinion of gays.

There was an Orlando Police officer working security, but he devoted his efforts to getting as many people out safely, as he could. Still the shooter managed to take around 30 hostages. It wasn't until around 5:00 a.m., before a SWAT team went in. Distractor devices (flash-bangs) were used; shots were exchanged, and the gunman was shot several times, and died at the scene. None of the hostages were injured.

A thought: Florida is a big "concealed carry" state. I was surprised that none of the bar's patrons was carrying. Of course, the bar could have had a "no guns" policy. Then there is the convoluted logic of "Most liberals don't like guns. Most gays are liberals. Therefore, most gays don't like guns."

Well, what the hell do you want? I said it was convoluted logic.

Anyway, condolences and prayers for the families and friends of those killed and injured, and a big "Thank you!" to the officers of the Orlando PD and the deputies of the Orange County Sheriff's Office, for removing this nut job from the gene pool, and saving us the spectacle of a trial.

Drawscore

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby misterg792000 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:36 am

drawscore wrote:. . . . . In Orlando, FL, this a.m. It's been all over the news. More than 20 dead, and close to 50 injured.

The shooter is reported to have links to radical Islam, and I'm sure everyone knows Islam's opinion of gays.


...exactly the same as Christians, as well as the American right wing's, so shove the concern-trolling.

drawscore wrote:A thought: Florida is a big "concealed carry" state. I was surprised that none of the bar's patrons was carrying. Of course, the bar could have had a "no guns" policy. Then there is the convoluted logic of "Most liberals don't like guns. Most gays are liberals. Therefore, most gays don't like guns."

Well, what the hell do you want? I said it was convoluted logic.


It's not logic, it's you smirking at a situation based on the assumption that throwing an armed civilian into a chaotic situation is at all desirable.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby skybird137 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:00 am

I always had my suspicions that you would not be content with keeping these sort of arguments in the "Jump in the Fire section" and sure enough, now you want to spread the fire.
Calling Fifty Shades of Grey a Bondage Story is like calling Titanic an Iceberg Movie...

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Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:16 am

skybird137 wrote:I always had my suspicions that you would not be content with keeping these sort of arguments in the "Jump in the Fire section" and sure enough, now you want to spread the fire.

xtc and I both saw this at virtually the same time; he just beat me out in moving this to its proper forum.
Drawscore's reaction isn't even the worst one i've read today. Dan Patrick, the lieutenant governor of Texas, pretty much said that gay people had something like this coming; that this was God's judgment on them. He tweeted out various Bible passages, including one that reads: “Do not be deceived. God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.” People like tat make me sick to my stomach, and make me ashamed i ever called myself a christian and a republican in my younger days.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby elusinius » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:44 am

I'm sure the howler monkeys like Pat Robertson will
have to add their contributions.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby wataru14 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:05 pm

I don't know which is worse: the people screaming "it's not LGBT vs Islam" and "religion had nothing to do with it" or the people who never gave two shits about gays as people before now drowning in crocodile tears and falling all over each other to show how much they pretend to care. I've seen both drowning my Facebook feed today and all I've wanted to do was sit in the fetal position and cry.

I swear if I see another "#PrayforOrlando" or "my thoughts and prayers are with..." I'm going to drive into a fucking wall.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:14 pm

wataru14 wrote:I don't know which is worse: the people screaming "it's not LGBT vs Islam" and "religion had nothing to do with it" or the people who never gave two shits about gays as people before now drowning in crocodile tears and falling all over each other to show how much they pretend to care. I've seen both drowning my Facebook feed today and all I've wanted to do was sit in the fetal position and cry.

I swear if I see another "#PrayforOrlando" or "my thoughts and prayers are with..." I'm going to drive into a fucking wall.

No worries; just as long as you realize that many of us - especially here - really are genuinely upset with this situation just as you are.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby wataru14 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:17 pm

I understand. If anyone can empathize, its the people here. And I, personally, am thankful for that.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby freyjaceleste862 » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:41 pm

What ever it is, Trump and Clinton responded (if they didn't it wouldn't look good). But hey, I leave you to decide who's response was better,

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 4189299712

https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/stat ... 1032534017
love cooking, panty/knicker gags, nappies, handicapped.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Valimure » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:08 pm

Thank god I didn't go out last night. I'm fine, still waiting to hear on some of my friends but I've never been a big clubbing person so I don't think anyone I know was there. I have a lot of friends who needed to be let out of work early today though after names of victims were released.

Anyway, speaking of "convoluted logic"... Would just like to point out that a certain republican nominee used this event as a platform to call for the banning of Muslim immigration. Because according to the logic of some people and groups, gun control laws won't do anything because people will get them illegally, but there is absolutely no way in hell that anyone will get into this country if we ban immigration.

And on the topic of gun control laws... This fucker was on the terrorist watch twice. TWICE. And STILL was able to purchase guns completely legally with no added hurdles or anything. You can keep your fucking handguns if you want them that badly, but there is no reason why getting a gun should be easier than getting your driver's license. There is no reason for anyone in this country to need access to automatic weapons, or even large stores of ammo.

So fucking done with this country.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby xtc » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:57 am

The immigration argument, just as it is on this side of the pond is total bollocks (English for "somewhat spurious"). Was the latest nutter not an American?
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby wataru14 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:58 am

He was native-born. His parents were immigrants, but he was born here.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby SolidSnickerdoodle » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:45 pm

Terrorism aside, the thing that really bothers me about this is the fact that a small percentage of people will say things like, "Well, serves those queers right. They shouldn't have been gay." Granted, it's a small percentage, but it bothers me that because these people were at a gay club some people will refrain from showing compassion.
There is only one God, and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death: Not today.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Chris12 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:38 am

xtc wrote:The immigration argument, just as it is on this side of the pond is total bollocks (English for "somewhat spurious"). Was the latest nutter not an American?


He probably didn't want to be and really doesn't deserve to be so...no?

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Jay Feely » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:53 pm

What this guy did goes against what religion is, he killed 50 innocent people with no remorse.
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:48 am

Jay Feely wrote:What this guy did goes against what religion is, he killed 50 innocent people with no remorse.

Actually, what he did goes against what modern religion is. When you read the Bible itself, you will find places where murder and even genocide is urged (and practiced) quite as often as in the book of Koran. The more sensible Christians and Jews simply ignore those now, but they are still there. Christian fanatics, however bad, at least still mostly live in civilized cultures that frown upon acting out on these things. Many Muslim fanatics on the other hand - particularly those from the Middle East - live in a culture that condones or even encourages such outrages. Not all Muslims by any means; many have much more pacifistic beliefs than do others. It's the ones that condone violence that we must watch out for. Those people still live as if it were still the 7th century.
Remember not all Muslims are the same, just as not all Christians are the same. People like Pat Robertson ("Let gays kill themselves in Jesus' name), Alex Jones (the gays brought it upon themselves), Sacramento pastor Robert Jimenez (all gays are pedophiles; Orlando is safer tonight), or that Arizona preacher Stephen Anderson (Homosexuals should be put to death) still spew their hate without shame. But such people are thankfully in the minority of modern Christian belief. I trust most average everyday Christians are more compassionate; i know most average atheists are.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby elusinius » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:10 am

I'm afraid that I've grown tired of "faith based" homophobia.
If I were a Sith lord I'd unleash my own version of "General Order 66"
on them.
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Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby frank burns » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:16 pm

I'd just like to point out that quite possibly not all the people in that club were even gay. I am not gay and have been to more than one 'gay club' with friends that are gay.

My thoughts, prayers and blessings are with all that died, all that are injured and their friends and family. All suffer greatly with the loss of loved ones regardless of whether they are gay or not.

YHVH

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby wataru14 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:51 pm

frank burns wrote:I'd just like to point out that quite possibly not all the people in that club were even gay.


And that matters why exactly?

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:14 pm

wataru14 wrote:
frank burns wrote:I'd just like to point out that quite possibly not all the people in that club were even gay.


And that matters why exactly?

To most of us, it doesn't i suppose. But the brainless hating preachers talk like the victims were all gay - and even all pedophiles for that matter. So he may have been referencing my own point about how some haters are actually celebrating the deaths of gay people (or Elusinius' point about homophobia) ... without concern for the possibility that not all the victims were actively gay.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby petraspeds » Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:47 pm

I think, Watsru, had you quoted frank burns entire podt, not just the first line, jasons explaination would not be needed.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby wataru14 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:21 pm

No, I understand what they are both saying. But it makes me mad when people try to erase gays from our own tragedy. "There were straight people there too!!!!" "All lives matter!!!!!!" It's gay erasure, pure and simple. The fact that it was a gay club is the reason it was chosen. There are still shithead Republican lawmakers who have not acknowledged that it was a gay club in the first place or even that ANY of the victims were LGBT. Yes, it's terrible that any people at all were killed. Of course it is. There were non-gay people there. Of course there were. But they were not the intended targets.

Saying things like "not EVERYONE there was gay," is going to cause even more damage. I was hoping that in the aftermath of this, the US could finally get around to passing some goddamn LGBT protection legislation (which Congress had the chance to start doing right afterwards and proceeded to shoot down ... again), or (perhaps) even making LGBT a protected class under the Civil Rights Act. But if people start shouting "it wasn't just gays that died," the fact that LGBT were sought out for death in the first place is going to get glossed over. Then it becomes, "why do we need to pass laws protecting gays? All sorts of people were killed." And nothing gets better.

Petraspeds, you live in the UK, so you may not understand how things work over here in the US. Do you realize that if any of the people who were wounded and survived were outed by the shootings can now be legally fired from their jobs and evicted from their homes because there is no legal protections for gays in Florida? Do you realize that if the Supreme Court didn't step in and recognize same-sex marriages, that the spouses of the wounded would not have been allowed to see them in the hospital since they would not be "immediate family?" Do you realize that the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the country, took the time in the aftermath of the shootings to pass a resolution condemning homosexuality, transgender inclusion, anti-discrimination laws, and same-sex marriage?

This killing was a direct result of the toxic environment gay Americans have to live in every day, and I'll be damned if I'm going to let someone try to shove us in the background in our own story.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:37 pm

I very much doubt that such was even remotely Frank Burns' intent; regardless of the annoying M*A*S*H character he's named after. In fact i think he was trying to make precisely the same point you are.
I think i get what you're saying, but I have never had any liking for semantics myself and the fact that his choice of words upset you for whatever reason when clearly no such intent was involved really shouldn't be his problem.
If anything, I rather take issue with the idea that you seem to think that any non-gays that were shot mattered less than the gays who were specifically targeted; that sounds just as outrageous to me as the minimizing of gays obviously is to you. Really, that's not what this is about - or it shouldn't be. Innocent people died because of a madman; that's the important thing.
Gay Lives Matter. Black Lives matter. Muslim lives matter. ALL lives matter! Why the hell are people seeing these as mutually exclusive concepts?! All lives matter - EQUALLY!!!! Gay lives are no less important for being gay; but at the same time straight lives are no less important either! Everyone is the same -human!!! Isn't that what this should all be about?!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby BoundBoyBeta » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:45 pm

Both of the presidential candidates responses to this honestly show the problems with both of them as candidates.
Trump said his usual we should close all borders, it is all Obama's fault etc on multiple different platforms.
Hillary said she was an ally of the LGBT community through all this, which given where lots of her money is coming from will likely have lost her a lot of it and also shows her ability to change face given how often she has openly spoken out against gay marriage but occasionally also the LGBT community in general.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby drawscore » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:01 am

If Hillary is such a good friend of the LGBT community, why has she and her foundation taken so much money from Muslim nations, which imprison gays, stone them to death, or throw them off rooftops? If she is such a battler for womens' rights, why does she take money form these same Muslim countries, which, under Sharia law, treat women as second or third class citizens?

Drawscore

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby misterg792000 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:14 am

drawscore wrote:If Hillary is such a good friend of the LGBT community,


I'm gonna stop you right there and tell you again to shove the concern-trolling. Considering who you've been carrying water for in every post you make in this forum I understand why you would suddenly want to distract everyone from your culpability in this, but seriously, shove it.

Just for once I'd like to see you people *not* try and suddenly make a pointless tragedy all about yourselves and whatever points you think you're gonna score off of it. Just for once, I'd like to see you in particular not rush in here to do your parrot act whenever one of your idols says something stupid.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby elanshof » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:18 am

Jason Toddman wrote:I very much doubt that such was even remotely Frank Burns' intent; regardless of the annoying M*A*S*H character he's named after. In fact i think he was trying to make precisely the same point you are.
I think i get what you're saying, but I have never had any liking for semantics myself and the fact that his choice of words upset you for whatever reason when clearly no such intent was involved really shouldn't be his problem.
If anything, I rather take issue with the idea that you seem to think that any non-gays that were shot mattered less than the gays who were specifically targeted; that sounds just as outrageous to me as the minimizing of gays obviously is to you. Really, that's not what this is about - or it shouldn't be. Innocent people died because of a madman; that's the important thing.
Gay Lives Matter. Black Lives matter. Muslim lives matter. ALL lives matter! Why the hell are people seeing these as mutually exclusive concepts?! All lives matter - EQUALLY!!!! Gay lives are no less important for being gay; but at the same time straight lives are no less important either! Everyone is the same -human!!! Isn't that what this should all be about?!


I"m going to oversimplify here, so bear with me.

If I say, "save the whales," do I thereby mean I don't want to save other marine life in danger, like sharks, coral, etc.? No, it doesn't. But, for whatever reason, whales need and deserve special attention. That is what people mean when they say [Minority group here] Lives Matter. To say "All lives matter" diminishes the attention needed for struggling classes that deserve protection. Straight people are rarely--if ever--targeted because they are straight. White people are hardly--if ever--targeted because they are white. Gender/sexual minorities and racial minorities are frequently targeted by others because of those very things central to their social, cultural, and personal identities.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:35 am

elanshof wrote: I"m going to oversimplify here, so bear with me.

You did oversimplify, and i am bearing with you.
However, you analogy is a tad flawed in one respect. Save the whales doesn't minimize anyone; black/gay/Muslim/whatever lives matter does, because regardless of whatever minority you are defending, it comes across to other people as trying to impose a guilt trip. Look, when the black Lives Matter movement started up, who did they start guilt tripping on? The bigots? The racists? The haters? No, they started up on white people in general with an emphasis on liberals i n particular. Liberals; the people who are already on their side trying to make things better. Alienating your best allies is NOT the way to promote your argument!
Now, look at Waturu's post. Did he focus on the person least likely here to be sympathetic to gays (I'm not naming names but we all know who I am talking about!)? No, he picked on Frank Burns, whose post was perfectly innocuous in and of itself. He pointed out that not all victims were gays! That's all he did. Big deal! So what? He's likely right. How does what he said denigrate gays or minimize the tragedy in any way, shape or form?
It doesn't!!! So why are you (and from here on I am addressing Waturu not elanshof) singling him out?
About fifty people have died; over fifty more were injured (some so badly they may die too). Regardless of who was targeted and why, those people died for no good reason.
I get it; gays are persecuted. So are pedophiles. Not just those who have actually committed crimes; all pedophiles are persecuted WAY worse than gays. I should know; I am one.
Oh, I don't have any sexual desire for children (or anyone particularly) but i fantasize about boys tying me up and sitting on me all the time, and sometimes sexual elements involving my being humiliated, degraded, or even raped orally creep into those fantasies. To most peoples' minds these days that makes me a pedphile. I have committed no crimes, but I am sure that wouldn't matter to most people who knew about my fantasies.
Now, if I had been shot by someone because I was a (however non-practicing) pedophile do you think anyone would be weeping for me? Would you?! Be honest! A lot of people and not just those asshat preachers we mentioned before would celebrate and say "Good Riddance to bad rubbish." Because minimizing people cursed with pedophilia is still perfectly socially acceptable. That it is no more a matter of choice than anyone's sexual orientation doesn't enter the picture. People like me are almost universally despised and shunned.
So kindly do not talk to me like I don't know what it would be to be the victim of gay discrimination. I know it a hell of a lot better than you do!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby wataru14 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:59 am

I am sorry, Jason, for all you have suffered and continue to suffer. I had no idea. I don't know you other than what I have read in your posts here, but from what I can see you are a good person who doesn't deserve the hand you were dealt.

This whole situation has been turning me into an emotional wreck. I take things too personally and internalize a lot of things I shouldn't and the events of this week have hit so close to home for me that I've been in an extremely dark place. Just a little context here: since hearing about the shootings I have not left my house other than to go to work. I've barely eaten. At home I have been doing is brooding and hating and writing angry posts on social media. I have been ignoring my friends and fighting with my family. I have been filled with such anger and sadness and pain and hate that all I want to do is make others feel as shitty as I do. I have no power to change this shitty situation or this shitty world or the shitty politicians or the shitty churches or the shitty people and their shitty platitudes, so all I feel I can do is lash out and hurt others. I want others to hurt like I hurt and that horrifies me.

This is not who I normally am and it terrifies me. My own inability to cope with the horror of it all is making me into a monster and I don't know what else to do. I really could use a little love right now.

Re: Some Nut Shot Up a Gay Bar . . . . .

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:31 am

wataru14 wrote: This is not who I normally am and it terrifies me. My own inability to cope with the horror of it all is making me into a monster and I don't know what else to do. I really could use a little love right now.

Believe me, I can relate to all that. Though I haven't lashed out at anyone about it, it upsets me too. Very much. Unlike you perhaps I internalize it a lot more... so i become depressed and lethargic rather than enraged. Even so, it upsets me that I not only live in a world where innocent people can suffer and die through no fault of their own but where others claiming to be Christians actually cite such a thing as cause for celebration. One asshole even says that all gays should be executed by the government! And he's a preacher. That bastard should go live in Saudi Arabia then if that's his belief, except of course he wants it to be a Christian government. I despise such sorry-ass hypocrites.
Listening to the news these days makes me very sad and depressed. Maybe it is just because i am getting old; pessimism about the future IS common among older men after all. But it seems to me that in some ways this world is colder and crueler now than it was when i was a young man. But maybe it's just because as a young man one didn't hear about all these atrocities on a daily basis like you do now. It wasn't that they didn't happen though - they most certainly did happen; you just didn't hear about them.
Anyway, please do understand that you are not alone in your grief. I grieve for those people too. But lashing out at those of us who feel the grief less deeply isn't the answer. Rather, if you want to lash out (and i don't blame you for that if it's aimed at the right people), lash out at the dickheads who advocate treating gays like child murderers and having them placed before firing squads.
Like the jerks shown here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wExTZgA3Thg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT4gcrPmm1M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeBFxOx6lJw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7Z6zdd0oow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7LI_RfCgC0
Those are the people who need to be educated!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...