LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:26 pm

I'd have come sooner but my connection to this site keeps crashing for some reason; have been having this trouble all day but it is getting worse. Had to re-post sevral times already in different places.
But if you want me to debate you you are going to have to quit making unwarranted asumptions like the ones you have made here already.
For a start, I have NO anti-LDS propaganda nor am I interested in reading or spreading any. All I intend to say are my own personal beliefs or what I know or believe to be true. Nothing more. Dig it?
For another your title insults me. Who said I am an atheist? I am NOT an atheist! Just because I don't believe in YOUR religion doesn't make me an athiest. Got that? Kindly change your title please. LDS Vs Non-LDS will do and seems quite innocuous.
Third, you talk about evidence then start talking about citing chapter and verse. Unless discussing prophecies or something else specific to ewither Mormonism in particular or Christianity in general, citing either Book of Mormon or the Bible is evidence of nothing. Please keep that in mind. If all you can come up with for evidence are these two books you are wasting both our times. Saying "it must be true because the Bible/Book of Mormon says so" is not going to get us anywhere. I have no interest in engaging in circular arguments.
So, fine. Begin citing prophecies (Biblical or Mormon) fulfilled, or however you wanted to begin this debate.
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Re: LDS vs atheism

Postby Fesselfan » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:29 pm

There is no god beside me.

Cheers

FF
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Those who understand binary numeral system, and those who don't.

Re: LDS vs non-LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:08 am

Oh, well there you have it then from Allah himself Cricks. There must be a God.
Now then I'm surprised you haven't resumed yet Cricks, I'm waiting!!! Well, not just waiting, but you get the idea...
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:21 am

I have never heard of it. Merely saying it proves nothing. Cite the source, including any evidence of WHEN it was said and who said it. Otherwise you're wasting my time.
There IS a Biblical reference from Jesus himself refering to people fleeing to the mountains during persecution in the Gospels... is THIS what you refer to?

BTW I might point out that most mountains are rocky. This is in fact how the Rocky Mountains got their name; the namer was not particularly imaginative. This prophecy could therefore been refering to ANY mountains and therefore not hard to fulfill eventually since there a LOT of people being persecuted and there are a lot of mountains. As such this prophecy has probably been fulfilled DOZENS of times in history!!! Jews fleein Stalin and Hitler, for two! From the Romans in 70 AD for another.
When you cite your source, please show evidence that THE Rocky Mountians were being specifically referred to. Otherwise - next question...
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:22 am

Prophecies from the Book of Mormon are meaningless Cricks, unless you can show documented proof that they were written BEFORE the prophecies were fulfilled. Which I doubt you can.
I could write prophecies about the US bombing of Hiroshima and claim they were centuries old. That wouldn't make it so, now would it? Yet I think this is all Joseph Smith did. Prove me wrong.
There is far more convincing proof of the prophecies of Nostradamus and St Malachi's papal prophecies than there is in the authenticity of any part of the Book of Mormon. Show me any evidence of their existence prior to Joseph Smnith 'discovering' them. Otherwise we may as well be making up our own prophecies.
If you believe in the Book of Mormon that is find, but mere belief is not good enoug in a debate. PROVE it to me. I already told you citing the Book of Mormon itself by itself proves nothing.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:37 am

What does my temper have to do with anything? What I said in my previous post is still my honest opinion, if phrased perhaps a trifle brusquely.
Fobbing me off by saying I have PMS or something isn't going to change things.
Answer my point in my previous post whenever you are ready and then we can continue.
Anyone else wanna comment on either side of this issue? Please feel free.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:39 am

Regarding that last line: Says WHO? Even if I accept the stick of Judah part for now (for the sake of argument only), prove the bit about the Stick of Joseph.
Just because Joseph Smith and/or his successors in the Church of Latter Day Saints claimed this doesn't make it so. Fine if YOU believe it... it's your faith and I wouldn't try to change it. But PROVE it. Show me just one piece of documented evidence pre-dating Joseph Smith's birth that this is what Ezekiel had in mind when he made his prophecy. Just one! And prove it's genuine.
And please don't cite the fact that Joseph Smith and Stick of Joseph have the same name. Joseph is, after all, a pretty common name even in the Bible. Two are mentioned in the Gospels for instance.
Mr Smith or whoever first made this claim could easily have simply taken advantage of this happy coincidence.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Boundgal08 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:47 am

Hehe.. FF makes me laugh, but you two just make me wet myself in laughter! ;)
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:38 am

Boundgal08 wrote:Hehe.. FF makes me laugh, but you two just make me wet myself in laughter! ;)

Okay, let me rephrase my previous general request. Does anyone have anything constructive to add to this conversation? :twisted:
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Boundgal08 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:02 am

Jason Toddman wrote:
Boundgal08 wrote:Hehe.. FF makes me laugh, but you two just make me wet myself in laughter! ;)

Okay, let me rephrase my previous general request. Does anyone have anything constructive to add to this conversation? :twisted:


ermmm...that would be a no Mr. I am too cool for school dude ;) hahahah!
BOUNDGIRL!
Probably the kinkiest woman you will ever meet!
I am a switch, I like to put a man in ropes and also have a man put me in ropes!
I am the 'Queen of bondage'

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:33 am

Ummm... yes, whatever. :roll:
Still waiting for your reply, Cricks.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:45 am

(1) Before I can make any sensible reply, you will have to explain why you are upset. Just going boo hoo doesn't cut it.
(2) The King James Bible mention nothing about the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith, so what's your point?
(3) You asked for this debate, not me. If you cannot handle defending your faith in a reasoned manner, don't blame me.
I warned you I wouldn't accept the Book of Mormon at face value. I don't even accept the Bible at face value. So getting upset is hardly a good way to prove anything.
Get back to me when you're ready to debate without getting upset just because I do not agree with you.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:06 am

Ummmm.... no, I don't. Partly because you apparenbtly misunderstood me - again.
I never knocked what Ezekiel said or when he said it Cricks. What I dispute is that he weas referring specifically to the Book of Mormon as the Stick of Joseph! (Leaving aside the matter of the Bible as the Stick of Judah as being irrelevent for the moment). Some would say the New Testament is the Stick of Joseph (The Old Testament being the stick of Judah); in fact, many DO say this. I remember being taught this once upon a time. Why should I favor your argument over theirs? Show me one good reason outside of either Bible or Book of Mormon why they are wrong and you are right concerning this.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:16 am

cricks5 wrote:Hey you did ask so I will reply. Read it in the journal of my ancestor Thomas Edwin Ricks who was what BYU-Idaho/ Ricks College/ Ricks Academy became named after. But the journal is on BYU-IDaho campus and I am not unfortunately.

Oh yeah, right. Cite a source I never heard of and cannot access without great time and expense (if at all) and probably neither can you. That's real courageous of you Cricks.
If you can't do better than this on your own despite graduating from Seminary I am not going to waste any more of my time on this.
You asked for a debate and then can't come up with your own logical defenses out of your own memory that you brag so much about but have to cite mysterious sources (that say what exactly)?
Come back to me on this when you have something worthwhile to say.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:59 am

Will you effing read what I say carefully before you respond Cricks?!
I never said your ancestor was imaginary.
I said I never heard of him or his journal; NOT the same thing.
By your own admission I'd have to go out of my way to access this journal. I have no intention of doing so; no reasonable person would expect me to, especially wihtout knowing what it says or what it has to do with anything.
Your biography of your ancestor is totally irrelevent to this discussion. Instead, why didn't you say something about what his journal says and why his journal is relevent?
This 'debate' is a joke and a complete waste of my time. I'm done with it.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:31 pm

After reading this pathetic thread, I seriously doubt anyone would make any serious attempt to do so, Cricks.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:14 pm

*sigh!* :roll: Okay, I'll ask... Why would Nuclearo (or anyone but you) object to my use of the word pathetic for describing this discussion to date?
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:48 pm

And what pray tell does THAT have to do with anything? It's the discussion I am calling pathetic, not Judaism, Mormonism, or any other religion!
In case you misunderstood (again) let me clarify: It is not Mormonism (or ANY religion) I am disrespecting: it is your apparent inability to provide any logical answers to my comments or to use any evidence outside of the Bible or the Book of Mormon that I am disrespecting. As a debater, you are far less skilled than I had expected. I had expected a reasonable challenge and all I got so far was pure fluff about Ezekial's prophecies and gross misinterpretations of what I am saying. I am frankly disappointed that your debating skills are so much less than your rp skills are supposed to be.
You are free to believe what you wish; I would never try to change this (nor was anything I said intended to do so). But the point of this debate was to show ME how Mormonism is valid; merely saying it is so proves nothing. If you believe in Mormonism this is fine: now tell me WHY you believe it. Convince me! That was what the whole point of this was, wasn't it?
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:00 pm

You will have to clarify that question. What about patriarchs? Which Patriarch? The word merely means Father. You mean the Biblical patriarchs or what? Be specific!
I have to leave now and will be gone for hours, so whatever you write I won't see it until I get back - lest you mistake any delay for reluctance to continue.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:36 pm

If you are asking me if I believe Adam and Noah ever existed, the answer is no.
With Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the answer is... maybe, though doubtful. For one thing, there is one story about Abraham having his wife Sarai posing as his sister that is virtually identical with a later strory about Isaac and HIS wife... a coincidence that I think is extremely dubious. There could have been such people, but I think of such tales as little more than folklore like the takes of Anansi the spider from western Africa. In the case of the Flood of Noah and the Garden of Eden, no -I do not believe these ever existed at all. Granted, Flood legends are very common and in fact there is (disputed) evidence that a global disaster struck the earth many thousands of years ago (but involved somewhat less than TOTAL devastation of life on land) but I am very doubtful of taking anything literally that is described in the Book of Genesis, becauise there is no independent evidence outside the Bible that anything in it (like the plagues of Egypt) ever happened .
Sorry if that disappoints you, but I already warned you I do not take such things at face value. I believe that certain (non-miraculous) events described later in the Bible happened more or less as described (King Solomon almost certainly existed, for instance), because outside evidence exists to corroborate them. Earlier more miraculous tales however lack such evidence - or credibility.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:10 am

I did not know offhand what those were for sure until I googled it. I guessed you meant something related to Jacob's blessings to his sons in the BIble but figured there was also something else. So now I know what it means to the LDS.
No, not being a member ofthe LDS church, I do not believe in Patriarchal blessings, which should be obvious.
You should assume I do not believe anything the LDS believe that other Christians per se do not, Cricks. That is the point of this debate in the first place! If you pre-psuppose my belief in anything distinctly LDS, your skills as a debater are even worse than I thought. If you cannot prove to me anything about Mormonism without such pre-suppositions, you may as well forget about it. Anyone with any knowledge of the scientific method would know better than to make such assumptions.
BTW please look up scientific method before you respond to that; I'll bet you think it means something different than what it actually does. No sarcasm: Most people do.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:42 am

May as well be. I cannot accept matters on simple faith alone; there are too many disappointments along that road.
I am assuming then that you believe in Mormonism simply because you were raised that way and not because you became convinced of the truth of it independently of parental influence?
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:58 am

cricks5 wrote:Raised that way and proud of it too.


Never said you should be otherwise Cricks. Just saying that this makes it harder for you to convince ME.
i AM an open-minded man though Cricks. When you think you have a convincing 'argument', feel free to come back to this. I will listen... to anything provable at least. :D
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Nuclearo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:31 pm

You have something against the Leeds Railway Station?!



Well I had to add a third avatar here, this uniformity was blinding me!
You could have explained what your acronym meant in the opening post for those who don't study religions, cricks >_> You keeping to refer to it like that makes it sound like a medical condition (no offense).
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:53 pm

More like an illegal drug don't you think Nuc?
Anyway, Cricks and I began this together thru PMs, and he knew I already knew what the Latter Day Saints were, and it was pretty much intended as a two way debate between us anyway (we figured - correctly as it turns out - that no one would add anything constructive). Problem is, it is hard to debate when one side is pure faith and the other is open-minded but skeptical of anything without evidence. So the 'debate' pretty much spluttered out without accomplishing anything constructive between us ither except driving our post totals up a touch. Oh well.
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Nuclearo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:08 pm

To me it sounded like an illness cuz it ended with S. like "Liver Defecation Syndrome" or something XD
Again, no offense please, because I know someone will start screaming at me >>
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:14 pm

Nuclearo wrote:To me it sounded like an illness cuz it ended with S. like "Liver Defecation Syndrome" or something XD
Again, no offense please, because I know someone will start screaming at me >>


Not me, but Cricks may be a different story. And he was thinking that you'd be upset about my using the word pathetic earlier in this thread! :big:
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Nuclearo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:20 pm

*Reads back*
As always: ôo is my only reaction. Nice to know even in second place I'm still a staple of this board. Though I was first place back when that was written so... >_> Anyway I stand by my joke. Religious fanatics mustn't bring our humor down!
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:26 pm

Nuclearo wrote:*Reads back*
As always: ôo is my only reaction. Nice to know even in second place I'm still a staple of this board. Though I was first place back when that was written so... >_> Anyway I stand by my joke. Religious fanatics mustn't bring our humor down!

I quite agree. Now then, would you also agree that we don't want a religious fanatic ascending higher than fourth place? Wouldn't you rather have a first poser - uh, poster - with my delightful sense of humor, open-mindedness, intelligence, charisma, and above all my modesty? :roll: :big:
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: LDS vs Non LDS

Postby Nuclearo » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:41 pm

I prefer heirarchyless anarchies but living in the middle east I know how shitty things are when you get a religious fanatic at the top. Just be a good Stalin and purge the correct targets...
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