Our new U.S. President

Postby chloroformmeplease » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:41 am

The man gets elected on his promises to fix our failed economy and to bring the troops home from Irag and Afghanistan.
Thus far he has managed to raise taxes on almost every luxury and is now sending more troops to Afghanistan.

I know our former pres. was an ass and didn't keep a single promise he made and now it seems to be politics as usual. Say what you will about Bill Clinton but at least he more then balanced our budget. The U.S. had an abundance of cash flow because we were ahead of the econmic game.
In my state alone factories and small business alike have closed their doors forever leaving the unemployment rate sky high. It is funny (ironic) when you watch the news and they report the unemployment rate is down in our country. Then right after that they report another major factory in MA. has just closed it's doors. You can argue that the report of unemployment going down is a national report not statewide but factories and small business all over the U.S. are continuing to close their doors. I think the media is dictated by the powers that be so as to give us a false hope that our economy is getting better all the time which of course is nothing short of more politicians lying to us yet again.

The experts say and I really love this one, the experts say we are in a resession. I've never gone to college but if businesses are closing anf people are getting laid off and loosing their homes and collecting unemployment just to feed their families and the U.S. dollar is worth less then the Canadian dollar isn't that a depression? Not only that if they are experts on the subject then why is our economy in the toilet. So it seems to me the so called "experts" simply get paid to come on the news and say "the experts say". Sounds like a no brainer job to me to not do anything and then report about it.

So the pres. wins the Noble Peace Prize. One question on this subject. Doesn't one usually win that for bringing peace to some place in the world? Just thought I'd ask.
I really fail to see what differnece in the future it makes who gets elected. Democrats and Republicans alike are full of shit in the White House. All they do is argue about who is right instead of doing the job they were actually elected to do by us the people. It seems after they all get elected they forget their promises and just who they are working for. Yes that would be we the people not how big your wallet is and how many vacation homes you can possibly own when people,average people can no longer afford to drive their car because you made it a law we all have to have health insurance.
The law states if you do not have health insurance you will be fined. Why fine someone who can't afford health insurance it is quite obvious if they can't afford the insurance they as sure as hell cannot afford to pay the fine. How jack ass is that law?

So lay off the average person and then tell them they have to pay for health insurance when for ten or more years their employer supplied their insurance. If you are going to do that then they should receive 125% of their normal pay not less then 100% of it.Our government cannot do simple math I guess. It must be the no child left behind act. I thought that was a good thing until I realized what they meant. Keep passing the kid to the next grade so he/she does not get left behind.

Here is one more for the economy and unemployment to suck on. Send your children to college so they can have better opportunites then you did. In theory it works and makes sense but then again to most college students who can't even change their own oil in their car everything works out on paper and that my friends is only part of the problem.
Full-time college student has little or no time to have a job ao they are not getting the life experience they need to make it through everyday life. They graduate and then they can't find a job in their field because the economy is still in the damn toilet. Meanwhile the education that their parents paid for cost thousand among thousands of dollars and that is gone and possibly even wasted for nothing. So now said student has to find a job or go live at home and sponge off mom and dad who are already broke ie the college years. The graduate who decides to get off their ass and get a job ends up with some dead end job at a fast food place or some place even worse thus not using the skilles they learned in college. How does this help our economy when the food chains they are working for get tax breaks for simply being a huge corporation ending in the ole stand by. "The rich get richer and the poor get poorer but they all also have to have health insurance.
Our own government has made our economy one big circular trap and it is not getting any better whatsoever and if you think it is from watching the news I have a bridge in NY for sale and some nice property in South FL for sale are you interested?
Treat others as you wish to be treated. Having said that I will not sit idly by while someone is disrespecting another just because they think they are better than everyone else.

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby nexthero231 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:43 am

I agree with what you're saying that in reality, nothing is being done and it's politics as usual. However a logical solution should be to simply not expect government to solve the problems of the people. We really have to get off our butts to do something about the world in order for progress to happen instead of sitting around, expecting our politicians to do something about the economy, job market, health care, etc. The very politicians that we elected in our Congress have been doing the same thing over and over again, and our President, is really in my opinion a public figurehead. Now I'm surprised that he's taking a neutral stance in our military, and personally I'm happy that he knows that the situation over in the Middle East is more complicated now and that a sudden withdrawal could easily change the balance of power for the worse, but otherwise, all he has been doing is traveling around for public photo-ops, holding these discussions that seem to be important, but in reality he is waiting for a bill to sign regardless of the input of these discussions (town halls, job summits, etc.), and what is actually in the bill (I wonder if anyone even bothered to read the extremely long economic stimulus plan that was passed and sign earlier in the year.)

BTW, that was a nice rant chloroformmeplease.

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby Kyle » Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:46 pm

Obama said during the campaign he thought we needed to do our best to win Afghanistan. He never said we would definitely be bringing all the troops home from there. He did say that was his plan for Iraq. I remember because it was one of the very few things I agreed with him on. I think all the people who are upset Obama is sending more troops and saying he told us differently before speaks volumes about how much people actually paid a bit of attention beyond the "hope and change" mantra.

A depression in the economic sense of the word is a severe recession, to put it simply. There will never really be an agreement where the line should be drawn.

I agree with most of the rest of what you wrote.

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby chloroformmeplease » Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:16 am

When the government stood idly by and did nothing as banks foreclosed on people's homes they dropped the ball it was up to them to put a stop to it not "we the people". I am sure people tried to reason with the banks and got no where. That was not up to the common man/woman to put a stop to it because they actually have no power to do so.

You say people should get off their butts and do something about the economy and I say it was not the people who work their butts off fault the economy took a plunge for the worst. Look what they did on Wall St. they basically ripped the public off. Then they cried to Congress to bail them out. So they bailed out some companies and look what they did with the money. They gave bonuses to CEO's and other people in high positions instead of putting the money back into the economy.

The common man is now taxed so high they can't afford to do anything but pay their bills and feed their children if they are that lucky to do so. People who work everyday to make ends meet have no say in what their pay is they also have no say when the government ups the taxes. Property taxes are sky high as is water and sewer and never mind mortgage rates and not to mention credit card rates. It is the same ole same ole that the rich get richer and poor get poorer which ironic because the poor are the ones who physically work their butts off to keep the economy going. So to say people need to get off their butts and fix the economy is impossible because they are not the ones who hold the cards and they are not the ones who raised everything so high that no one can afford to do anything.

Take the average factory worker who works holidays to make a big check and have been there for twenty plus years. The factory goes under because of overhead costs ie health insurance and electricity among other outragoues over priced things they need to run. Where is this worker suppose to go when all he knows is factory work but they are all closing. I guess he should go work at Burger King and take way less pay and not be able to make ends meet. I do not agree with your statement at all about people needing to fix the problem. The government needs to stop spending 100.00 for toilet seats for the white house among other outrageous payments they make. If you don't believe they pay this sickening prices just check it out. I know this is the case because I have seen reports on evening news shows about our governments disgusting spending.

Of course then they raise taxes on fuel which is already outrageously priced. It is the governments fault the economy is in the shitter because they allowed it to go this far without doing anything about it. Look at former pres. Bush. He thought if we went to war the economy would boom which is the real reason I believe we went to war in the first place. it back fired but some companies made alot of money. As we know fuel companies made a killing as did other companies that were hired to go to Iraq among them one of Bushes former companies. If that is not stuffing your pockets then I don't know what is.

As for our new pres. saying anything about the two wars going on I do remember him saying that these wars must end and that he was going to end them. I am not saying he didn't say what you said he did Kyle but you do know how politicians are. One day they say one thing and the next day they say something different. Either way we need someone that thinks logically not someone that thinks of fast answers and can bullshit their way through a campaign and their time office.

I am quite sure we are the only country who goes to another country and destroys buildings and what not and then pays to have them rebuilt. We are not just fighting a war on terrorism in Iraq we are rebuilding what we destroyed. Millions of dollars worth of equipment for our troops over there and then millions more to fix things we destroyed. That was our governments decision to rebuild these things. Tell me how is that good for our economy to spend all this money we don't even have? Then tell me again it is the common mans fault the economy sucks.
Treat others as you wish to be treated. Having said that I will not sit idly by while someone is disrespecting another just because they think they are better than everyone else.

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu May 13, 2010 11:16 am

The real blame belongs to all those Republican fatcats, who reserve huge perks for themselves at our expense and want to pay us as little as they can get away with. They oppose universal health care for the working class but make sure they have it for themselves. If they had their way, they'd bring Feudalism back into style. Maybe slavery except slavery is more expensive and high maintenance than slavery (slaves need to be fed and taken care of; serfs don't get that but have to take care of themselves or starve). Many people these days are little better than serfs anyhow and don't even know it; including practically anyone whose job involves physical labor rather than shuffling papers). Waiters, dishwashers, ditch diggers, construction personnel, famers (especially farmers)... all are little more than serfs as far as the Republican party is concerned. They only care about middle management and above the same as kings cared only about their knights and nobles and not for their own vassals and servants. Republican leaders care nothjing at all for people who make less than $75,000 a year!
The real problem is that the Republicans are united and lead strongly - in the wrong direction - while Democrats are divided, usually (not always) are poor and uninspired leaders, and lead us nowhere at all. That was true with Carter And is true of Obama. Although to be fair it's unfair (no pun intended) to have Bush freely screw up the country for eight years and expect Obama to have fixed all those problems and clean up Bush's mess in less than two.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby KittyReaper » Thu May 13, 2010 10:55 pm

I like reading all of your ideas and thoughts on this matter and its all true. The economy is getting weaker, unemployment is rising, companies are getting greedier. But you have to give Obama a small chance because it did take Bush 8 years to wreck the country. Bush brought religion and all his personal beliefs and ideals into the government that's why he banned scientific experiments like stem cell research.

Very interesting article about what Bush did... http://www.boston.com/news/nation/artic ... s_of_laws/

But about the Republicans in congress, it's all true that they only want to keep the biggest amounts of money for themselves and the upper class when they have to realize that the lower classes make up the majority, but the fact is that a lot of the lower class isn't educated enough to make an informed decision when voting on a delegate. What the common man sees is this smiling man who is putting on a perfect act for everyone and most of the time is lying through his teeth, but he sees the smile and the sharp dressed man and thinks without a second thought, that is who he is voting for and because of that we get idiots and scrooges in congress.

I will leave off with a final statement, "the problem with elections is that anybody who wants an office enough to run for it probably shouldn't have it and anyone who does not want an office badly enough to run for it probably shouldn't have it either. A government position should be received just like a surprise or a gift. Instead it is usually received like a diploma, the anticlimax that hardly seems worth the effort invested.

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu May 13, 2010 11:05 pm

You are right on the money, Reaper1711. the lack of education on the part of many people is one of the many reasons why I feel we are returning to a form of feudal system in this country; more comfortable than the previous one for now, but that will change too if things go on the way they do. Civilization cannot be maintained at its current level if people succuumb to ignorance and propaganda (especially the religious propaganda that is becoming so prevalent lately).
BTW great first post. Hope to hear more from you.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby dreadnaught3200 » Fri May 14, 2010 1:12 am

I'm not sure how much of a right I have to speak here, given that I'm Canadian. But it seems to me that there's a huge sense of disillusionment in the United States right now, Chloroformmeplease's ranting seems to illustrate it perfectly (Which was awesome, by the way). The people were sick and tired of the Republicans (For good reason) and obviously when Obama was elected there was a huge surge of hopefulness, and now it seems those same people (Except the hard line democrats of course) are now waking up to the fact that when Obama was shouting "Change!" and whatever else, he wasn't really saying anything. I can't say I support either party right now. And its the same up here, though that's another matter.

I will say this though, Jason (Great, now were debating in two threads lol) I think your being a bit cruel to the Republicans. You talk about them as if every single one of them are heartless braggarts who are intent are starving the average American to death. I don't believe that's true. Not that I in any way like the Republican party, but there are just as many greedy, manipulative Democrats as there are Republicans. Nor do I think at this time the US is moving towards a Neo-feudalist system, but I could be wrong about that, I don't know the future. Though if you want neo-feudalism just look at collectivization in Stallinist Russia, THAT was neo-feudalism. (I mean that in practice, not in ideology of course)

The current political situation in the US is really quite depressing if you think about it, mainly because you guys have no real options. The Republicans were in power for eight years and made a right bloody mess of the country. Now the Democrats are in power, and now that the post election euphoria is waring off, people are realizing that Obama isn't any better. And as far as Obama goes, I wish he and the other hard line democrats would start taking responsibility for their own decisions rather than just blaming everything on Bush. It's undeniable that Bush left the Democrats a huge mess to contend with, but the Obama administration has only screwed things up even more. If you want proof look at the bailouts. A rather half-hearted and poorly managed attempt at Keynsian economics, that was 100% the decision of the Obama administration. That, as I'm sure you all know, isn't working.

Its really quite tragic, but it seems the politicians, in both parties, have gotten so caught up in all the partisan BS, that they've forgotten they still have a country to fix. Though if it makes you feel any better, the situation is no less bleak up here in Canada. We're all in this together.
There's a permanent tension in music isn't there? On one hand you have three chords, you know, four four and three chords. Then there's the people like me, who say "Well, why don't we add a fourth chord and put it in five four?" - Bill Bruford

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri May 14, 2010 6:54 am

To Dreadnought: To tell the truth, when I saw your name on this forum i figured, "Okay, I'll bet Dreadnought is objecting to my reference to religious propaganda!"
Nope. In fact, I pretty well agree with everything you have said. I'm not too knowledgeable about the situation in Canada (a place I'd love to visit but have never had the opportunity to go to) but will take your word for it its no better there. It's probably no better anywhere since every nations's decisions (especially the US's) affects every other country so much more than they used to. It's almost enough to make one believe the End Times are coming. Maybe they are... only without the Rapture or the Second Coming!
And why shouldn't you have a write - er, right - to speak on this forum? Canadians are affected by the decisions our boneheaded government makes too! Everyone on Earth is! As you concluded in your own remarks; we're all in this together! We need objective guys from other countries like you to warn us stupid Americans that we're digging our own graves and jumping into them!
I don't diss ALL Republicans; just the fat-cats in Congress and the CEOs of major corporations and all the others who are more interested in maintaining their exorbitant life-styles than doing what is good for the rest of the people in this country. They care more about teating Obama down than in helping him put this country back together. I don't refer to the upper middle class Republicans (though they're bad enough) but all the rich ones who think it is okay to make a waiter/waitress subsist on half minmum wage and depoend on tips when a lot of people are too stingy to tip decently (no I'm not a waiter, but I DO work in a restaraunt). From my experience, the more Republican a person is in their political beliefs, the less sympathetic they are for those less well off than they are. You may know of exceptions to this: I personally do not. Every piece of social legistration we have that have made the lives of poorer people better (Social security, medicare, etc) was created by Democrats and OPPOSED by Republicans. The only real exception to this being the abolishment of legal slavery... and even there we were the last European-based nation to do so (just as are still the last developed country on Earth not to use the metric system).
But if things keep on the way they are, slavery (or rather its even worse brother, Feudalism) is going to make a big comeback - EVERYWHERE!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby dreadnaught3200 » Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 am

Well, to be frank, I'm (at least I try to not to be) a bs'er. And I haven't been down the states in a couple of years, nor have I lived there for any substantial length of time. So I really don't know if there's a lot of religious propaganda flying around. I hope not, seeing as just throwing propaganda in people's faces rarely ever does any good.

Alright, as far as the Republicans go, I see what your talking about. Let's just say for my own part that I used to call myself a conservative, and I still take a conservative viewpoint in a lot of things. But I want to stress that I view Conservatives and Republicans as two very different things. So, to answer your question, no I haven't met any "Republicans" who would I describe as not greedy, but that's probably because I don't really know any. I do know a few people who I would describe as "Conservatives" who certainly aren't. There'll all middle class people who have worked really hard, managed to make ends meet and don't want to be punished for that with ridiculous taxes. (And just so you know, that's the Canadian Left's solution for everything. Raising taxes! It's ridiculous.)

Ok, now as far as Slavery and or Feudalism coming back, that would obviously include the fall of democracy. That's a concept I've been chewing on myself. I in general try to look at most current political issues in a historical context (mainly because I'm huge geek) and actually looking at the situation in that context is really the only thing that makes me feel any better about all this. For two reasons A: Despite all its problems, North America currently has the highest average standard of living in human history. So despite all its problems, we still on the whole have life better than anybody else. (hard to believe sometimes, I know) B: As I pointed out earlier what amounted to a Neo-Feudalist system was implemented earlier in the century in the Soviet Union. It seems to me that the big theme of the 20th century was, after the end of the First World War in 1918, the old system of Monarchies collapsed, and the rest of the century was one long war between three possible replacements. Facism, Communism and Democracy. Obviously, at the end of the WW2 Facism was knocked out of the race, which led to the cold war. And frankly, as bad as things are for the working classes in the States, they were ten times worse for workers and peasants in the Soviet Union. Who for most of the Soviet period, did end up acting as serfs to their Commissars. This was even more the case in every Communist country (Though as an aside I think I should mention that Communism is an ideal that was never actually achieved, during the Cold War the Communists states were all technically running under Socialist systems. So when people start throwing the word Socialism around these days it kind of scares me.) and nowhere more than in China.

I say all this because if the US is going back to Feudalism, since Monarchism is pretty much dead, its definitely going to look like Collectivization in the U.S.S.R and Maoist China, and will likely come under the guise of the command economy. Lenin and Mao (and Stalin actually) made the same promise, to help the working classes by centralizing and taking control of the economy. And in each case (And there are a LOT of them Russia, China, Cambodia, Vietnam, Yugoslavia... etc etc) they not only made things worse for the working classes, they starved a lot of them to death. So for all its problems, the Democratic Free Market system is definitely the least worst option. Let's just hope our countries take a lesson from history and don't fall for the command economy again. Otherwise, we WILL end up back in slavery.
There's a permanent tension in music isn't there? On one hand you have three chords, you know, four four and three chords. Then there's the people like me, who say "Well, why don't we add a fourth chord and put it in five four?" - Bill Bruford

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri May 14, 2010 10:17 am

Where you're talking about history and things as they stand today, I am in full agreement with you Dreadnought. The US and Canada (and I think Australia and Britain) are the best places in the world to live as the world is now. But I think things used to be better in the 50's and 60's - if you were white, that is; they weren't so great for blacks, Jews, Hispanics, or other minorites, so I guess we had to give something up for them which was only fair. Our way of life is to my mind the best there is. But it could be even better were it not for ther greed of a few greedy individuals who'd rather live like kings and lords rather than pay the working people that they depend on for everything a fair wage. A merchant opr lanlord or doctor or lawyer can charge whatever fees they want for their services and get it, but ordinary people have no means to improve how much they get paid for their labor. Lenin was right to decry the exploitation of the working clas althiough it us as yet far less extreme than he proclaimed. But the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer, and that cannot go on indefinitely. Something will give way and the entire world economy will collapse like a house of cards in an earthquake unless something is done. I am not advocating full blown Socialism or anything, but there needs to be a more equitable system for the working class and disabled than the current Capitalistic system we have now. There is a lot of needless suffering even in America because of the greed of the upper economic classes that bleeds the middle and working classes dry - causing the housing, unemplyment, and banking crises, for instance.
It's the future where I was talking Feudalism. It could happen here without destroying Democracy (though it would render the concept essentially meaningless), and though it may take a long tim e for it to get as bad as it was in the Soviet Union, enoguh economic crises could make it happen eventually. Oil spills, droughts, bad weather, and so on. The economhy and ecology are giant and frsagile things, and one nudge in the wrong direction could collpase everything. I'm bnot saying it MUST happen, but the longer things go the way they are going, the more likley it is that this will happen. Then all those with the resources will lord it over the rest of us - just like something you can read in the Book of Revelations!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby Chris12 » Sat May 15, 2010 2:41 am

Foreighn politicians are not really my strong point but i thought Obama did a reaseanable if not good job as president.

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat May 15, 2010 3:35 am

Chris12 wrote:Foreighn politicians are not really my strong point but i thought Obama did a reaseanable if not good job as president.

He is certainly trying his best but selfish politicians are throwing so many obstacles in his path (some I think out of pure spite or self interest, like Sarah Palin) that he'll either be remembered as a great success for overcoming them (like Lincoln or Roosevelt, who were opposed just as much) or a great failure regardless of his qualities. He is a thoughtful man who does not rush into things (unlike Bush), but the self-righteous Republicans are using that against him to make him look incompetent instead. I just hope he can overcome the opposition of such petty fools.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Our new U.S. President

Postby Jack Roper » Sat May 15, 2010 4:52 pm

Here is a review of Newsweek's Jonathan Alter's new book--"The Promise"--on Barack Obama's first year in office. Note the facts and statistics.


"'Mr. Alter gives the president high marks, but with qualifications. He notes that Mr. Obama has presided over roughly $1.5 trillion in government outlays (the $700 billion authorized by Mr. Bush’s TARP program, as well as $800 billion in stimulus spending).

And look at some of the results: When Mr. Obama took office in January 2009, the book notes, the economy was shrinking and losing 741,000 jobs a month. By January 2010, the economy was growing at a nearly 6 percent pace and losing about 20,000 jobs a month. In the interim, banks paid back most of their $700 billion bailout.

The author says Mr. Obama hasn’t received the public credit he deserves for engineering an economic turnaround while simultaneously effecting major social initiatives. Along with health care overhaul, Mr. Alter says, the accomplishments include “the biggest tax cuts for the middle class since Reagan, the biggest infrastructure bill” since the interstate highway law, “the biggest education bill since Lyndon Johnson’s first federal aid to education, the biggest scientific and medical research investment in 40 years, and the biggest clean energy bill ever” (all in the 2009 American Recovery and Reinvestment Act).

Mr. Obama’s own political strategies are partly to blame for this lack of recognition, the author says. “The White House didn’t want the public thinking that Obama had achieved long-sought public policy objectives under the guise of merely stimulating the economy,” he writes, “even though that’s exactly what had happened.”

It seems hard to reconcile this with the site's opinions. Obama, in fact, is doing a really good job in a very tough situation. As the satiric magazine "The Onion" wrote on the day after Obama's election: "Black man given worst job in the world."

Indeed.