wataru14 wrote:The racial symbol debate is a little sticky. Saying the Civil War was purely about slaves is a gross oversimplification. It played a big part, but it was not the be-all, end-all.
Jason Toddman wrote:This problem is not about flags
drawscore wrote:The Confederate flag is displayed on the capitol grounds of several state capitols. I visited Tallahassee several years back, and there is a prominent display of "The Flags That Have Flown Over Florida," which go back to the 16th century Spanish flag. No one has complained about the Confederate battle flag being displayed in that manner.
misterg792000 wrote:Jason Toddman wrote:This problem is not about flags
The flags *are* part of the problem, insofar as flying it over any government building (short of a national battlefield or whatnot) goes. Stop and think about what kind of message the state in question is sending by sanctioning that.
I'll complain on grounds of accuracy, since the confederate "battle flag" was never the national flag of the CSA.
Chris12 wrote:I'll complain on grounds of accuracy, since the confederate "battle flag" was never the national flag of the CSA.
Yes so I found out mere hours after making this topic![]()
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULBCuHIpNgU
Jason Toddman wrote:Flags and other symbols of a noxious belief like racism are a problem - but they are only the visible symbols of a much greater problem. Instead of pissing and moaning about the confederate flag, we should be dealing with the racist beliefs of those who think nothing of demeaning people of color. Concentrating on the flag is only in fact concealing the real problem and isn't helping anyone - least of all African-American people.
xtc wrote:I probably shouldn't intrude on the grief of others but, in the light of one of the above suggestions, I wonder what the Chanel Islanders would think if all their historical flags were flown. I don't think the swastika would go down too well.
Note: The Chanel Islands in the English Channel were occupied by the Nazis from 30th June 1940 (Yes, the Second World War HAD started by then!) until liberation in 1945.
Jason Toddman wrote:All I know is that every black person *I* know (granted there aren't many to begin with up here) whom i have talked to about it thinks of this business with the confederate flag as a distraction rather than dealing with the real issues. Have you discussed this with those whom it really concerns, or just other whites?
misterg792000 wrote:Jason Toddman wrote:All I know is that every black person *I* know (granted there aren't many to begin with up here) whom i have talked to about it thinks of this business with the confederate flag as a distraction rather than dealing with the real issues. Have you discussed this with those whom it really concerns, or just other whites?
Yes and yes. Given that Maine is only 1.1% black (vs NC's 21.3%) and a state where one does not traditionally find people flying the confederate flag in the first place, you'll forgive me if I don't attach much weight to anecdotal evidence from there.
Chris12 wrote:I'll complain on grounds of accuracy, since the confederate "battle flag" was never the national flag of the CSA.
Yes so I found out mere hours after making this topic![]()
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULBCuHIpNgU
Kyle wrote:Chris12 wrote:I'll complain on grounds of accuracy, since the confederate "battle flag" was never the national flag of the CSA.
Yes so I found out mere hours after making this topic![]()
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULBCuHIpNgU
We can't really fault you for not knowing it. There's no way I'd look down on a Dutch person not knowing it when even most Americans don't know it.
wataru14 wrote:The racial symbol debate is a little sticky. Saying the Civil War was purely about slaves is a gross oversimplification. It played a big part, but it was not the be-all, end-all. So I'm not going to address the racism association. It's far too murky to be an effective talking point. That being said, it is the flag of a nation that declared war on the United States. It is the flag of a nation that committed treason against the United States. I don't like bandying that word around (some people seem to love using it in inappropriate contexts), but in this case it is the primary definition of treason under US law. While I do not think that people should be banned for owning the flag or displaying it on private property (such thoughts would be completely anti-American), it should not be flown on the grounds of the state capitol building. The flag shouldn't be erased from history. That's just stupid. But it should not be flown from a place of honor on public land. That veers too close to state endorsement.
I went to college in Columbia, SC. There is a Civil War museum and Confederate Relic Room less than 1 mile from the State House. Put it there.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/South+C ... d33.998642
Jason Toddman wrote:misterg792000 wrote:Yes and yes. Given that Maine is only 1.1% black (vs NC's 21.3%) and a state where one does not traditionally find people flying the confederate flag in the first place, you'll forgive me if I don't attach much weight to anecdotal evidence from there.
Fine... then how about this?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-black-a ... 51079.html
misterg792000 wrote: If it's such a "distraction", then why argue against removing it from the equation?
Chris12 wrote:wataru14 wrote:The racial symbol debate is a little sticky. Saying the Civil War was purely about slaves is a gross oversimplification. It played a big part, but it was not the be-all, end-all. So I'm not going to address the racism association. It's far too murky to be an effective talking point. That being said, it is the flag of a nation that declared war on the United States. It is the flag of a nation that committed treason against the United States. I don't like bandying that word around (some people seem to love using it in inappropriate contexts), but in this case it is the primary definition of treason under US law. While I do not think that people should be banned for owning the flag or displaying it on private property (such thoughts would be completely anti-American), it should not be flown on the grounds of the state capitol building. The flag shouldn't be erased from history. That's just stupid. But it should not be flown from a place of honor on public land. That veers too close to state endorsement.
I went to college in Columbia, SC. There is a Civil War museum and Confederate Relic Room less than 1 mile from the State House. Put it there.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/South+C ... d33.998642
That's pretty much my opinion on it. The flag shouldn't be on a state building because its most positive interpretation is one of rebellion against that very same building. I wouldn't discount the slavery aspect thought because as Misterg said, the confederate was pretty open about why they rebelled. The flag most negative interpretation is slavery and that shouldn't fly on a government building either.
I think the flag should stay in every other context. You shouldn't forbid people from buying or selling it, it should definitely remain at memorial for Southern soldiers.
The desire to want the flag gone also borders on the ridiculous in some cases with the car from Duke of Hazzards being censored or Apple removing historical games from their store because they feature the flag as they should, it its full context.
Not wanting the flag on government buildings is very reasonable but it shouldn't disappear outright. Its history, it happened and you can't change it an thus the historical significance will always be there.
Kyle wrote: Overreaction: the American way.
drawscore wrote:There's all kinds of dangerous shit going on in the world, and our idiot politicians are obsessing over a flag, and the name of a football team. How do these shit for brains numb nuts keep getting elected?
Drawscore
Jason Toddman wrote:Because they are easily bought by the rich and can easily fool the vast majority of the electorate which, after all, is not very damned bright. Besides which, it's a distraction to keep us from realizing that they cannot solve our problems and hence do not deserve our votes.
It's a modern-day version of the old Roman tradition of bread and circuses - and they're the clowns.
drawscore wrote:True, but it does not explain why the media is covering for them by playing up the nonsense about flags and football teams, and ignoring so much other stuff. Drawscore
Jason Toddman wrote:misterg792000 wrote: If it's such a "distraction", then why argue against removing it from the equation?
I am not. What I am trying to do is point out that the flag is not the real problem.
Jason Toddman wrote:Fix how people treat one another and no one will give a damn about the Confederate Rebel Flag.
drawscore wrote:There's all kinds of dangerous shit going on in the world, and our idiot politicians are obsessing over a flag, and the name of a football team.
misterg792000 wrote:Jason Toddman wrote:misterg792000 wrote: If it's such a "distraction", then why argue against removing it from the equation?
I am not. What I am trying to do is point out that the flag is not the real problem.
Who are you arguing against that claims it is?
misterg792000 wrote:Jason Toddman wrote:Fix how people treat one another and no one will give a damn about the Confederate Rebel Flag.
You're not going to "fix how people treat one another" while your representative government celebrates enslaving and subjugating other people. You may as well fix a leak by putting a bucket under it and ignoring the faucet.
Jason Toddman wrote:misterg792000 wrote:Jason Toddman wrote:misterg792000 wrote: If it's such a "distraction", then why argue against removing it from the equation?
I am not. What I am trying to do is point out that the flag is not the real problem.
Who are you arguing against that claims it is?
Near as I can tell... you. Which is strange since we usually seem to have much the same political beliefs.
In any case, I am unsure i understand just what point you are trying to make here.
Jason Toddman wrote:misterg792000 wrote:Jason Toddman wrote:Fix how people treat one another and no one will give a damn about the Confederate Rebel Flag.
You're not going to "fix how people treat one another" while your representative government celebrates enslaving and subjugating other people. You may as well fix a leak by putting a bucket under it and ignoring the faucet.
We do not seem to be on the same page on this issue at all. In fact, I am unsure just what in hell you are taking about. I'm talking about people. Period. Not churches. Not governments. Not political organizations. Not governmental agencies with a disagreeable agenda. Just people, without which there would be none of the rest. To make these changes, we need to change peoples' perceptions of other people - not governments or this other nonsense.