## Ferguson, MO

Post by TUfriend » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:40 pm

How do you feel about the events that have taken place over the past 2 and a half months in Ferguson, MO?
For those of you who are not aware, or who are not from the states, here's a quick rundown of what has happened. Feel free to use your favorite search engine to get a more full understanding of what has been going on:
On August 9, Mike Brown, an African American 18 year old was shot and killed by a Caucasian police officer, believed to be Darren Wilson. Depending on who you listen to, the details of the shooting are unclear, although there seems to be more hard evidence pointing towards Mike Brown being unarmed, completely innocent and more than 20 feet away from the car when he was shot(Although the police dept. initially claimed that he was assaulting the officer)
The result was a peaceful protest that sparked a military response from the police departments. They trapped the people inside the city and arrested any reporters who tried to cover the incident. Since then, shootings of African American youth by Caucasian police officers have been reported in the media more frequently.
The protests are still going on.
My opinion is that the protests are the snapping of racial tensions that already existed, and now that the protests are going on, the media has been reporting more of the interracial violence that exists in the United States. It also shows the incredibly crazy amount of resources police departments have access to, including a freaking tank. What city police department needs a tank? Anyway, I was wondering if other people had heard about the events and had other points of view.
Note: This topic has a risk of becoming offensive, please try and keep your opinions that may be offensive to a certain race or anyone in general to yourself.
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### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Jay Feely » Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:50 am

There is a fine line between peaceful nonviolent protest and violent protest.
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by drawscore » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:27 pm

This story keeps taking strange turns. Initial information seemed to favor the victim; later information seemed to favor the police officer. The latest info I've seen, is the autopsy report, which says that Mr. Brown sustained a gunshot wound to the hand, consistent with one that might be received if he attempted to grab or reach for, the officer's service weapon. Additional information from the autopsy report indicated that Brown had marijuana in his system, but the article failed to give the level, and if the level was high enough to cause impairment.
Based on the latest information available, I am inclined to come down on the side of the officer. I am also aware that all the facts are not in, and that I do not have access to all the facts, so before making a declarative statement that Brown was an innocent kid wrongfully shot; or that he was an out of control thug who got what he deserved, perhaps it might be wise to let the system do its job, and let the grand jury make its determination from the evidence presented.
Yeah, that sounds like a politician's statement, but out here in flyover land, you can't, and shouldn't, determine guilt or innocence, without ALL the facts, presented under the harsh light of truth, to a panel of impartial grand jurors.
Drawscore

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by chadmc90 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:37 pm

Well....it seems that once again riots have broken out over the grand jurys decision(to not indict the police officer)....
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### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by TUfriend » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:29 am

That was the sketchiest report when they released the information about the trial. Somehow, Michael Brown was more than 100 feet away from the police car with Darren Wilson in it, yet somehow the blood got on his pants(among other inconsistencies) In any case, regardless of whether Darren Wilson is justified or not, the protests that are about to happen will be making history. Literally every major city in America has some sort of protest going on today. Happy Thanksgiving, a celebration of the White Man coming to America and fucking everything up...
Heil Toddman, the Wonderful Wizard of Odd
I'm a nerd with a dangerous side.
See my most recent TRUE story, "SPL Initiation", here.
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### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Kyle » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:38 am

Let's be perfectly honest here, most people made up their minds about what happened as soon as they heard about this, and nothing was going to change their minds.
( I have more to say about this case but I need to come back later when I have more time)

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by jsherwood » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:21 am

Is it simply the case of racial tensions have never been solved in America?

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by TUfriend » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:08 pm

> jsherwood wrote:Is it simply the case of racial tensions have never been solved in America?

Probably, I mean, look at the number of videos online where white police officers mistreat African American people even when they comply in the most regular of arrests. I saw one where they used a battering ram to break into a car with an African American family inside with children in the back. They dragged the dad in the passenger seat out of the window and charged him with reckless driving. The passenger. Reckless driving. What?
Anyway, who knows if any of them have been faked, and they have to be taken for what they are, internet videos. But still, since the Mike Brown incident, they have become much more frequent. Practically a new one every week.
Something to note: In no state is it illegal to film police officers(yet).
Heil Toddman, the Wonderful Wizard of Odd
I'm a nerd with a dangerous side.
See my most recent TRUE story, "SPL Initiation", here.
Read my most recent FICTIONAL story, "The Birth of a Whovian", here

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Kyle » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:51 pm

> jsherwood wrote:Is it simply the case of racial tensions have never been solved in America?

The killing or the protest? I know a lot of people immediately jumped to the conclusion Brown was killed because he was black. I'd be lying if I said I would be surprised to find this out (if you are any combination of young, male, or black you are more likely to be harassed by police, and God help you if you are all 3 like Michael Brown was), I have not seen any evidence to back this up other than people's assumptions. If you mean the protests though they are without a shred of doubt influenced by race relations.
As far as racial tensions being "solved" I don't think you're ever going to eliminate racism in any place where people of two or more races live in close proximity. Although I do think racial tensions have been higher in recent times than at any point in quite some time.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Kyle » Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:02 pm

I'm back with more time so I'll add a few more thoughts since I'm sure everybody was on edge waiting for them...
I'm going to say up front, I don't believe I'm informed enough to make a very good judgment on what really happened. I know the story obviously and some of the facts but I didn't really keep up that well with it. So I am not going to rant and rave too much either way about it. I will say based on what I know, it's clear Michael Brown was a hoodlum heading for trouble, but I have yet to hear anything justifying killing him, but I would hope the grand jury knows more than I do.
However, it seems pretty clear the police of Ferguson does pretty much whatever they want to do and has for some time. This one incident was, if anything, the tipping point, not the spark that started the fire. And their heavy-handed tactics with the protests haven't exactly endeared them to many people. Although I will never understand the thinking behind people being mad smashing windows and burning cars and businesses. You get mad so you deprive people of property and jobs, that's real genius thinking at work.
One thing that was discussed a lot when this first broke but has kind of been lost in the news (though TUfriend did point it out) is something that should scare everyone: we could all be on the verge of being in this situation. Since Brown was killed, it's become known just how much firepower police departments in this country have, and how quick they are (some of them) to use it. Some police departments in the US could probably hold their own against armed forces of some countries. This should make everyone uncomfortable.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by chadmc90 » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:42 pm

> Kyle wrote:I'm going to say up front, I don't believe I'm informed enough to make a very good judgment on what really happened.

Yea this is the way I feel. There was just not enough information on the incident for me, you, or practically anyone to know what truly happened, and we may never know because of the lack of evidence.
I also agree that destroying everything in sight won't do anyone good. It's just a big mess....
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### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Jay Feely » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:35 pm

Riots, Protests, won't change things. Legislation need to change.
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by jsherwood » Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:09 am

> Kyle wrote:

> > jsherwood wrote:Is it simply the case of racial tensions have never been solved in America?

> The killing or the protest? I know a lot of people immediately jumped to the conclusion Brown was killed because he was black. I'd be lying if I said I would be surprised to find this out (if you are any combination of young, male, or black you are more likely to be harassed by police, and God help you if you are all 3 like Michael Brown was), I have not seen any evidence to back this up other than people's assumptions. If you mean the protests though they are without a shred of doubt influenced by race relations.
> As far as racial tensions being "solved" I don't think you're ever going to eliminate racism in any place where people of two or more races live in close proximity. Although I do think racial tensions have been higher in recent times than at any point in quite some time.

not an expert but if America keeps promoting human rights to the world, why isn't it doing so to its own citizens?

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:01 pm

This has become a really sad situation. I recall the race riots of the 1960s, and it looks as if this is the start of more of the same.
Regardless of what one thinks of the official decision the grand jury made, all this rioting and looting and mass vandalism is only going to make matters worse and increase tensions even more, and just add to the perceptions that blacks are more violent than whites.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Jay Feely » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:33 pm

Laws should be enacted so officers cannot fire excessive shots when dealing with a suspect. A flesh wound can give an officer time to escape.
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by drawscore » Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:43 pm

> Jay Feely wrote:Laws should be enacted so officers cannot fire excessive shots when dealing with a suspect. A flesh wound can give an officer time to escape.

Right, wrong, or indifferent, police trainees (police academy cadets) are taught that when you draw your service weapon, you shoot to kill.
Drawscore

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed Nov 26, 2014 6:46 pm

> drawscore wrote:

> > Jay Feely wrote:Laws should be enacted so officers cannot fire excessive shots when dealing with a suspect. A flesh wound can give an officer time to escape.

> Right, wrong, or indifferent, police trainees (police academy cadets) are taught that when you draw your service weapon, you shoot to kill.
> Drawscore

I have to agree with Drawscore on this one. When faced with a dangerous situation, a police officer cannot afford to try to go for flesh wounds.
At the same time, considering how quickly the officer involved in the 12-year-old shooting case in Cleveland drew and fired, one can't help but wonder if he reacted as much because the 'perp' was black as because he apparently had a gun. Despite the boy being only 12, his age (and consequently his small size) didn't register with the cop (a rookie according to latest accounts) in time to prevent a tragedy.
Your idea is probably impractical as phrased, but I DO think some training is required to the effect that cops don't automatically go on red alert just because the person they are encountering is black rather than white. I'm not saying they should assume blacks are always blamesless either of course; only that they react the same regardless of the person's race. That already IS the law, but it needs to be enforced and reinforced with better training.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Kyle » Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:27 pm

Police officers are taught to shoot until the threat is stopped. In fact even civilians learning self-defense are taught this. If it takes one shot or eight, whether the threat is killed or simply incapacitated, you shoot until there is no longer a threat. And yes there have been people shot multiple times who still carried on an attack, so you can't simply say "one shot and no more" or anything similar.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Chris12 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:32 pm

I don't think its really possible purposely cause only a mere flash wound. Guns are dangerous and the human body is a vulnerable thing. If you shoot someone in the leg which would be the traditional way to halt rather then kill you still have big odds you hit a major artery and cause the target to bleed to death.
Its also rather a lot to ask of an officer to carefully aim downwards when someone is attacking him.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Kyle » Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:17 pm

Yes, the idea of firing a purposeful "non-lethal shot" is a myth. It cannot be done with any reasonable degree of accuracy if you're really in a situation where using lethal force is necessary.
That was poorly written; let me explain what I mean. If you're really in a situation that calls for lethal force, you probably aren't going to be able to get off an accurate shot to hit someone in the arm or leg, a "non-lethal" shot like you see in movies and read about in books. This is why people are taught to aim for center mass as I said above. It makes it most likely you'll hit them and stop them. I've seen it said before about situations like this or other situations "why didn't the cop shoot them in the arm?" It doesn't work like that.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by misterg792000 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:15 pm

In self-defense situations, a purposefully non-lethal shot is more likely to get you prison time than a lethal one, since (or so lawyers would argue and juries would generally agree) that no one who feels in imminent danger would take the time to aim that carefully instead of going for center mass.
Semi-related, once when on jury duty, we could not come to a unanimous decision on the "with intent to kill" added to the "assault with a deadly weapon inflicting serious injury" because one juror insisted, smiling in an infuriating way, that "oh if he intended to kill he would have shot him in the head instead of the leg!"...even though the victim charged the gunman from a distance of about 4-5 feet I guess she figured he had time to assume proper firing stance.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by drawscore » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:45 am

If you are faced with a life-threatening situation and have a weapon, you neutralize the threat as quickly as possible. Yes, it's unfortunate when a child dies at the hands of a police officer (or anyone else for that matter), but more often than not, you are running on adrenaline, and, if it's me, I understand that a 10-year-old with a gun, can kill me just as dead, as someone 25 years old, and I will act accordingly to protect myself.
And yes, I do have a concealed carry permit.
Drawscore

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Jason Toddman » Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:38 am

This is shaping up to be one of the most contentious issues of the year; even more so than anything going on in Washington D.C. judging by reader comments I've seen elsewhere. I'm almost amazed the discussion about it has remained pretty civil here so far. Like in politics, everyone (at least in the US) seems to have definite opinions about the situation one way or the other. Right or wrong, it may be a turning point in race relations, gun laws, and other things. I just hope it doesn't lead to more civil (or, rather, uncivil) unrest.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Kyle » Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:05 pm

This is literally the only discussion I've seen or heard on Ferguson that's stayed calm.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:41 am

> Kyle wrote:This is literally the only discussion I've seen or heard on Ferguson that's stayed calm.

Same here. Just about everywhere else I have seen, some of the comments get pretty vile. It's really a sensitive subject for a lot of people; perhaps even more so I think than the Zimmerman/Martin case was. What I don't understand is why the Tamir Rice case isn't being discussed as well, since that seems to me to be an even more egregious case of racial profiling by a cop than the Ferguson incident is.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by gagfan867 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:44 am

There is a lot of police brutality out there (like the choked to death guy in NYC), but IMO this wasnt one of them. Protesters need to rally around a better "victim"

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Jason Toddman » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:20 am

> gagfan867 wrote:There is a lot of police brutality out there (like the choked to death guy in NYC), but IMO this wasnt one of them. Protesters need to rally around a better "victim"

I agree. The one you cited is a much better example. From what I've seen, Brown was a thug and a punk who tried to game the system and lost. But Eric Garner's case is totally outrageous, and Tamir Rice seems to have been guilty of nothing more than very bad judgment (for which his parents should also be held at least partially responsible) and being confronted by Barney Fife's evil clone.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by sarobah » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:36 pm

To provide a different perspective...
As the niece and cousin of police officers, I can sympathize with the dangers and hard choices they face every day in the line of duty. At the same time, my uncle, who was hard as nails and had a reputation as one of the toughest sergeants in the state, never took his gun out of the box in which it was issued. To him it was a matter of pride and honour to never use lethal force.
With that in mind...
Let's face it, what most of these incidents have in common, including the Ferguson case, is that the person shot dead was unarmed. There is a definite narrative emerging here, and it is being driven by intensive media coverage, police insensitivity, prosecutorial inactivity and jury nullification as much as by the protests. The theme is, rightly or wrongly, that a young African-American male who has been stopped by police (or by a private security guard) stands a good chance of being shot to death. Unless something drastic occurs soon (more serious than pious calls for a "national dialog"), young African-American males who would not normally be carrying firearms will arm themselves, for what they perceive as self-defense. How long will it be before they, and not the police, are the ones who shoot first and ask questions later?
Unless change occurs quickly, this could escalate and even spiral out of control. And change will not occur by assigning blame, which both sides are doing without any obvious concern for the long-term consequences. What should happen is that the voters get behind public officials who are willing to crack down on police violence as well as on criminal activity. They should vote out self-serving politicians who are devastating communities and destroying the social order by pushing for zero-tolerance policies that have clearly failed to protect (and often focus on) the people who are most vulnerable, maintaining the catastrophic "war on drugs" (which has claimed a hundred times more victims than the drugs) and pursuing "law and order" campaigns which target people instead of crimes.
Unfortunately, I am pessimistic that the voters will ever do the right thing. But I find it hard to blame them. Fear, whether reasonable or irrational, is a difficult thing to overcome.
Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the soul within.

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Jason Toddman » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:43 pm

On a related note, the death of Tamir Rice has just been declared a homicide.
http://news.yahoo.com/cleveland-boy-kil ... 14526.html
What the article doesn't make clear though is that a homicide is not equivalent to murder or manslaughter; but simply declares it as a deliberate act of killing. The police officers involved may or may not go to trial over this one, but at least the authorities are not simply burying the case under the rug this time in hopes it'll be forgotten.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ferguson, MO

Post by Bondage Bunch » Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:44 pm

I saw a meme, and I believe it works with this discussion. It was a joker reference in Batman: "Black police officer kills white man and no one bats an eye. White police officer kills black man, and everybody loses their minds.