## Bathroom

Post by Jay Feely » Mon May 23, 2016 6:22 pm

What do you think of transgender people getting to choose what bathroom they go to?
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by james bound 1997 » Tue May 24, 2016 12:03 am

Well surely they get to pick which one is more comfortable for themselves if let's say she was a man to a woman then to complete the transition from one gender to the other then they might find confidence in using the womens bathroom and this can be vice versa to female to male.
As it's a free world they can pick and choose.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by drawscore » Tue May 24, 2016 8:38 am

It is said, that "Sometimes the needs of the few, outweigh the needs of the many." That being said, too many forget that the opposite is also true - that sometimes the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."
Drawscore

### Re: Bathroom

Post by wataru14 » Tue May 24, 2016 1:21 pm

Of course they should get to choose which bathroom they use. What kind of question is that?

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Jay Feely » Tue May 24, 2016 2:37 pm

> wataru14 wrote:Of course they should get to choose which bathroom they use. What kind of question is that?

over reaction
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by james bound 1997 » Tue May 24, 2016 2:48 pm

It's like if you yourself need to use a bathroom which ever one is available male female or disabled and say the males were out of order then you would use the females so I can't see that there should be a problem what bathroom a transsexual can use so why ask the question because the only answer you will ever get is that they can use any bathroom they like

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Jay Feely » Tue May 24, 2016 3:13 pm

some of my friends don't see it the same way.
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by .... » Tue May 24, 2016 4:59 pm

Hey do watcha want in life.. just use your own pooper or if ya really need to choose then just doo both... it's like being bisexual... it just gives you more opportunities... try it test it...love it!

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Jason Toddman » Tue May 24, 2016 7:48 pm

> Jay Feely wrote:some of my friends don't see it the same way.

A lot of people don't. Heck, it took me a long time to come around to accepting the trans POV myself, and i'm usually pretty liberal. But then I'm a baby boomer, and most people my age are much more conservative than I am. We were raised in a much more socially conservative world by today's standards.
Really, it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask. After all, a mere generation ago the answers would likely have been quite the opposite of what they are here now! I agree that Wataru14s reply was a bit of an over-reaction. Had someone like him said what he said when I was your age, he'd be considered a horrible pervert and be jeered (at best!). It's really a very different world now. In some ways better, but in some other ways very much stranger and even horrifying than I could have imagined forty years ago. The idea of someone like trump becoming president for one thing would have been unimaginable - and imo rightly so, but that's a different topic.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Bathroom

Post by LordNelson » Tue May 24, 2016 8:58 pm

> wataru14 wrote:Of course they should get to choose which bathroom they use. What kind of question is that?

This question is not a creation of Jay Feely for this site. This is currently a controversial topic in several states as certain narrow minded politicians try to discriminate against and regulate people that they feel to be unacceptable deviants. The real issue is that the discrimination is based on sexual orientation which should be seen in the same way as race or religion, as a personal choice to be respected whether the politicians understand it or not.
http://www.vox.com/2016/5/5/11592908/tr ... aws-rights

### Re: Bathroom

Post by SolidSnickerdoodle » Wed May 25, 2016 12:21 am

Simply put, I agree with the premise that a transgender person should be able to go int the bathroom they identify themselves with. However, I do believe that the issue is more complex that most people realize and I can still understand the trepidation behind it.
There are those in the world that are concerned about allowing transgender individuals to access their preferred bathroom. These concerns range based off a number of topics, with the front runner being increased potential for sexual assault. Some parents may be concerned about their children's safety in the presence of public bathrooms, say at a public park or grocery store. I can understand this concern and I believe that these parents are doing right by their children by being concerned for their well-being.
However, I believe that this concern lacks a strong basis for argument formation. Let's examine the classic scenario that news shows and political panels love to recycle over and over again. Say we have a woman (or little girl) using the restroom in a grocery store. Suddenly, a big scary, neck-bearded man (because it's always a man in these hypothetical situations; people often seem to forget that women can sexually assault people too) walks in uninterrupted. Sexual assault ensues. How did this happen? Why the man is a pervert and exploited transgender access of course!
Okay. So this is the standard argument made by a sizable amount of concerned individuals. While its intentions seem to be for the best (protecting people from sexual assault by the opposite sex), it is also filled with over generalizations and error. I'm sure there are those who might take advantage of such a right. They are criminals and deserve the repercussions. However, these instances are few and far between. And it is their actions that are going on to ruin opportunities for legitimately transgender individuals.
First thing to consider, and I've written about this before, is that not every transgender person is easy to identify. Case in point, this guy: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealJazzBertie
With that in mind, imagine a biologically born female who looks like a man, talks like a man, and acts like a man, walking into a female bathroom. You would have no idea by looking at them that they were biologically female. In fact you might feel a bit uncomfortable by their presence and wonder why a man is in the women's restroom.
This is the case that people don't often consider. Perhaps it's because of Caitlyn Jenner or Adam Sandler movies, but society tends to associate transgender people as hairy, fishnet-wearing, overweight guys that get a kick out of dressing up like girls. And this is just simply not the case. Many people make it their life's mission to transition to the opposite gender, and many end up passing as that gender altogether. Granted, not every case ends up like this, but the more fortunate ones do.
Next, even if an equal access law is barred, or, in the case of Oklahoma, an anti-transgender bathroom law is put into effect, how would one go about enforcing it? Ever since states started passing these bills, people have been asking government and local law enforcement how such a law would be enforced. And, somewhat unsurprisingly, nobody has an answer.
It's a difficult concept because, if you remember, one cannot always identify a transgender person. There are plenty of people who have long been passing as their desired gender and will continue to do so. And they're not going to throw away their reputation as their desired gender by going into the "right" bathroom and outing themselves in accordance with what's on their ID.
So, now what do you do? Dispatch police to every bathroom in the country so that they can wait outside and check ID? Is taking a piss going to require the same hassle as ordering an alcoholic beverage at a bar? Do you put automated security systems on doors that read your ID, scan your genitalia, and only open if you match? No, I don't think so. There is no practical way to implement a system that bars transgender people using the bathroom they want. So it seems to me that this whole scene is nothing more than a bunch of politician taking a principle stand by saying "No, we don't agree with this, and we're going to be very adamant about the fact that we don't agree with this."
Honestly, I just think that things were much simpler before this was brought into the public eye. If you identified as a man or woman, you went into that bathroom and that was the end of it. But now it's the public eye and government has become involved, so it would seem that it needs to be addressed. Where we go from here is up to the people's will.
There is only one God, and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death: Not today.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by wataru14 » Wed May 25, 2016 3:48 am

I don't think my comment was an overreaction in the slightest. I think this whole "controversy" is an overreaction, to be perfectly honest. It's a complete no-brainer. Whatever cultural values were 40 years ago is irrelevant. The fact that people are talking about this at all is baffling to me.
The entire debate is a smokescreen anyway. All of this nonsense started with the NC bill, which goes far FAR deeper than bathrooms, but no one seems to notice. What's really happening is that the trans bathroom "debate" is being shoved into the forefront to whip people into a frenzy and make them ignore or forget about the rest of the bill, which completely eliminates minorities' protections from wrongful termination and freezes the minimum wage (among other things). So in a little while, the state will give in and repeal the bathroom stuff and everyone will go home thinking they accomplished something and the rest of the law will have flown in under the radar. Some people will still try to bring it up, but the wave of fervency will have broken and things will go on with the rest of the law in place.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed May 25, 2016 7:03 am

> wataru14 wrote:I don't think my comment was an overreaction in the slightest. I think this whole "controversy" is an overreaction, to be perfectly honest. It's a complete no-brainer. Whatever cultural values were 40 years ago is irrelevant. The fact that people are talking about this at all is baffling to me.

I could understand your bafflement if you were a teenager and therefore too young to have seen much societal change as yet, but your profile says you are 37. Surely that is old enough for you to have seen *some* societal change. but perhaps you are still too young to understand one salient fact; that the older you get, the harder it is to accept new change. Especially social ones. And most especially if that person was raised in a conservative environment. I myself was, although not strictly so; so after a time of holding conservative values myself (in my early 20s my opinions were almost indistinguishable from Drawscore's now) I gradually changed as my naturally liberal frame of mind reasserted itself as i entered a more liberal environment post-military. Maine is itself a moderate state (despite having a teabagger as its current governor) and this helped when i moved back here.
But there are many places where people simply are not all that liberal. Especially in the Southern states, where among other things many white people never stopped blaming blacks for the socio-economic problems the white folks and their ancestors created themselves. Some places in the South are very much different from Maine - let alone an even more liberal state like New York or California. If you've never been down there, their attitudes can indeed be very hard to understand. i lived for years in various parts of the so-called Bible Belt, and believe me those people - or at least the devoutly religious ones - do not think like liberals like you and I at all!
Jay is undoubtedly asking this question because he himself is a practicing Christian and undoubtedly associates with people who hold these (to us) contrary attitudes all the time. That must be very confusing for him... I know it was for me when *I* was his age, though the questions i had were different than this one.
So just because you (Waturu) are puzzled by such questions doesn't mean other people cannot have honest conflicts about it. It just seemed to me that your answer smacked of the same intolerance of a honest question that other people show for transgender people, and i just don't think that's the best way of going about it.
Maybe when you are 25 or so years older and people are discussing legalizing teenaged prostitution or lowering the age of consent from 14 to 12 (or whatever to-us-insane societal change is being discussed at the time), you'll have a better understanding of what i am trying to get across to you now.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Bathroom

Post by wataru14 » Wed May 25, 2016 7:34 am

I am 38 (I guess my profile age hasn't updated yet). And I have seen societal change. As a gay man I have definitely seen societal change and it hasn't been fast enough. I also do understand people's resistance to change. I just don't respect it. Life is change. Existance is change. That which stagnates is dead. I don't have any philosophical inertia myself and I find out that something "I've always been taught" is at odds with what I see and hear, then I abandon what I've always been taught because it's clearly wrong. And I don't understand how others cannot do the same.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by SolidSnickerdoodle » Wed May 25, 2016 10:37 am

> wataru14 wrote:I also do understand people's resistance to change. I just don't respect it. Life is change. Existance is change. That which stagnates is dead. I don't have any philosophical inertia myself and I find out that something "I've always been taught" is at odds with what I see and hear, then I abandon what I've always been taught because it's clearly wrong. And I don't understand how others cannot do the same.

It's easy to be for change when you're on the side that wants the change. Many people will chalk up their identity as a liberal to their being open minded, when in reality they just agree with the premises that are currently in the minority. If one tried to sit them down and have an honest, constructive argument about conservative values, then most probably wouldn't even give them the time of day. Don't mistake being in the minority view as being 100% open minded and pro-change. Being open minded involves you already having your mind made up, but giving people the time of day to explain their point of view and considering it.
Also, change is not as easy as simply weighing two pieces of information and adopting the one that is more valid. We wish it was like that, but it's not. Humans are not that logical. We develop deep and unyielding values that guide who we are in this world, and some of those values (especially the ones that are instilled at a young age) are not easily open to change. This is just human psychology. And as humans we have become very good at finding ways of not accepting what we don't agree with, from cognitive dissonance to confirmation bias.
This is not to say that when one hits age 25 their views and belief system are locked in and no longer open to change. As you say, life is change and one's personality can be fluid. My dad used to be a very devout Christian. The type that would pray at dinner, take us to church, and instill in us the idea that homosexuality was forbidden. And now, some ten years later, he is the most atheistic, liberal 52 year old I know, and I have no doubt that he would accept me being bisexual. The reason is because he decided to educate himself on these topics, concluded that he was on the wrong side, and changed his views. This seems to be the sort of process that you're describing, and while it is possible it's not easy.
So, when you say you don't understand how others can't do the same or when you claim that you immediately abandon what you've always been taught when it's wrong, I have some trouble believing you. Real change does not happen overnight, as you mentioned regarding the pace of the LGBT movement. Therefore, I think it's unrealistic and a bit short sighted to act like people's beliefs and values are a black and white issue and place disrespect on those that won't adapt quickly enough.
Last edited by SolidSnickerdoodle on Wed May 25, 2016 11:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
There is only one God, and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death: Not today.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed May 25, 2016 10:54 am

Snickerdoodle, i couldn't have said it better myself. You're very well spoken; especially for someone your age. You should get into a profession where you can put those communication skills to good use. People like Bernie need guys like you. Maybe you could become another Kyle Kulinski.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Bathroom

Post by SolidSnickerdoodle » Wed May 25, 2016 11:27 am

> Jason Toddman wrote:Snickerdoodle, i couldn't have said it better myself. You're very well spoken; especially for someone your age. You should get into a profession where you can put those communication skills to good use. People like Bernie need guys like you. Maybe you could become another Kyle Kulinski.

Thanks. That means a lot.
There is only one God, and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death: Not today.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by wataru14 » Wed May 25, 2016 1:38 pm

> SolidSnickerdoodle wrote:The reason is because he decided to educate himself on these topics, concluded that he was on the wrong side, and changed his views. This seems to be the sort of process that you're describing, and while it is possible it's not easy. So, when you say you don't understand how others can't do the same or when you claim that you immediately abandon what you've always been taught when it's wrong, I have some trouble believing you.

Believe what you wish. But it was easy. Quite easy, in fact.
But I do agree with Jason that you are extremely eloquent and have an incredibly sharp mind. It actually gives an old queen like me hope for the future.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed May 25, 2016 5:48 pm

> wataru14 wrote: Believe what you wish. But it was easy. Quite easy, in fact.

I can relate to this on some level. Once I started to see the flaws in the beliefs I was taught, it was easy to change them. I think much of what reluctance i had, besides a childhood and early adulthood in an environment where such beliefs were the norm, stemmed from being unwilling to lose the sense of community i had going to church and so forth. Having Asperger's, obtaining and maintaining relationships is difficult for me and I was reluctant to give them up; but eventually I saw how little in common i had with the people around me and so I "separated myself from there" as it were.
Now i find it sad that there are still so many conservatives out there who just 'don't get it', but having been one of them myself until my late 20s or early 30s (and I like to think I'm not all that stupid a guy) I can see why so many people out there stick to those old outmoded beliefs. Some people are willing to shed that false sense of comfort and moral snugness for the truth like I did, but for others it just isn't that easy. It isn't because they're stupid (well, some of them anyway) but perhaps lack critical thinking skills or simply live in an environment where more liberal views just are not tolerated. Again, places like Texas are a lot different than New York, or Maine. To be a non-conformist there can get you ostracized or even worse.
For me that wasn't too intolerable; for others that might seem a fate worse than death.
Of course, I still get impatient with conservatives when they're so openly arrogant in their beliefs that they treat those who disagree with them like scum. Ans unfortunately there are all too many conservatives like that.
One or two liberals as well too right on this board, unfortunately (and no Waturu you're not the one i have in mind).
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Bathroom

Post by werewolf » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:59 am

Wonder if the transgenders know that by pushing this issue they're doing more harm to their cause of equality than good and besides don't they know that allot of places these days have unisex bathrooms why not use them.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by .... » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:01 am

True

### Re: Bathroom

Post by wataru14 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:00 am

> werewolf wrote:Wonder if the transgenders know that by pushing this issue they're doing more harm to their cause of equality than good and besides don't they know that allot of places these days have unisex bathrooms why not use them.

Transgender people are hardly the ones "pushing this issue." They're not the ones passing laws to make a big deal about something that has never been an issue before.

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Jason Toddman » Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:21 am

> werewolf wrote:Wonder if the transgenders know that by pushing this issue they're doing more harm to their cause of equality than good and besides don't they know that allot of places these days have unisex bathrooms why not use them.

I used to feel the same, but lately the positions of people who are against trans right have become sickeningly nasty.
This pretty much sums up my current POV on the matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6rm7Vj ... 6A&index=2
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Chris12 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:04 am

Its amazing to see what the rest of the world chooses to be concerned about.
In Europe its terrorist attacks, a refugee crisis, Britain going solo and dictators taking turns bullying us.
In America its bathrooms

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Jason Toddman » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:07 pm

> Chris12 wrote:Its amazing to see what the rest of the world chooses to be concerned about.
> In Europe its terrorist attacks, a refugee crisis, Britain going solo and dictators taking turns bullying us.
> In America its bathrooms

And don't forget our elections!
Under you think they're included under bathrooms because our politics and common sense have definitely gone down the toilet.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Bathroom

Post by .... » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:11 pm

Will trump do somthing about the toilets? Guess not...

### Re: Bathroom

Post by Jason Toddman » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:36 pm

> TheTicklish PrisonFox wrote:Will trump do somthing about the toilets? Guess not...

I have to say that he's actually been pretty reasonable on that particular issue, unlike most Republicans.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Bathroom

Post by .... » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:42 pm

True!