Nanking Massarce

Postby Jay Feely » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:57 am

The year was 1937- The Japanese Imperalist Army marched into the former China capital, Nanking during WWII and captured the city. What transpired afterwards however was not ethical as Japan military raped, murdered, and looted innocent chinese residents. To this date, Japan has never claimed or owned up to their mistake. China and Japan hates each other and if a chinese person marries a japanese person, they are shunned from society. Its a never ending hatred of each other. Japan needs to grow up and admit their guilt or the relations between the countries will never be a peaceful one.
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Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Chris12 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:12 pm

''not ethical'' is kind of an understatement. Nanking horrified the Nazi's! The Nazi's! :mouthopen:

The relation between Japan and China hadn't been smooth sailing since Japan started westernising so I don't think the bad relation is entirely because of the Nanking massacre but it plays a big part.

I agree that Japan should recognise what they did. To this day the big difference between them and Germany is that Germany recognised its wrongdoings and is very ashamed of them. Japan on the other hand doesn't recognise it crimes at all which is a massive punch in the gut for any Chinese or Korean survivor. I find the Actions of Japan even worse then that of Germany so them just dismissing their wrongs is pretty disgusting. Recently there was a big thing about a Japanese Politician defending the practise of ''Comfort woman''

Would it be morally right for Japan to apologise? Yes. Will it fix anything? probably not. Both countries have a massive superior complex when it comes to their place in Asia.

China still views itself as ''The middle kingdom'' and to them Japan is just a former vassal led astray by the west. Japan on the other hand sees itself as having supplanted China as Asia's prime power long ago, which was true for a time but these days probably not.

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:36 pm

The Japanese never apologized for their actions in Nanking and for a great many others throughout Southeast Asia and much of the pacific (including a little incident known as the bombing of Pearl Harbor) in the years that led up to the end of WWII, and yet many Japanese feel that the USA should apologize for the atomic bombs exploded at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Talk about arrogance.
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Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Chris12 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:28 pm

With America nuking two cities i'd say the debt from pearl harbour is already paid.

Japan doesn't cry about the result of a war they started but I can get it. Pearl harbour was a military base right? Hiroshima and Nagasaki where cities full of civilians.

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:57 am

Chris12 wrote:With America nuking two cities i'd say the debt from pearl harbour is already paid.

Japan doesn't cry about the result of a war they started but I can get it. Pearl harbour was a military base right? Hiroshima and Nagasaki where cities full of civilians.

So was Nanking. So was Manila. So was Shanghai. So was Beijing. And a number of others. In all of these, the Japanese deliberately inflicted numerous civilian casualties. By some estimates, civilian casualties inflicted by the Japanese varied from 5.5 million to 30 million. By contrast the combined death toll of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (including later deaths caused by radiation) were about half a million.
Also, as I've pointed out before, the only alternative to the atomic bombings would either to invade mainland japan by conventional military means (which would have inflicted even more civilian casualties and collaterial damage over an even wider area, extended the war a year or two, drained our resources, and allow Russia time to get into the war and dictate terms of its own from Japan afterward) or call it quits. The second choice wasn't a realistic option. If we hadn't ended the war when we did, and Russia got into the act,you can bet Japan as a whole would be one HELL of a lot worse off than it is today.
Remember what happened to Germany because we let the Russians reach Berlin first? The whole country was virtually wrecked! Would've happened to Japan too. As it was, Japan got off far more lightly... imo they were better off getting the two atomic bombs than getting invaded.
Lastly, I might point out that had Japan surrendered to the inevitable just a few weeks sooner, there would have been no atomic bombs in Japan at all. Hell, they wouldn't even surrender after the first one in Hiroshima; they wanted to keep going even after the first atomic bomb! It took Nagasaki's bombing to convince them! Is that our fault - or Japan's?!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Kyle » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:22 am

Chris12 wrote:With America nuking two cities i'd say the debt from pearl harbour is already paid.

Japan doesn't cry about the result of a war they started but I can get it. Pearl harbour was a military base right? Hiroshima and Nagasaki where cities full of civilians.


Hiroshima was chosen because it was the site of a major army depot and had some industry that helped the Japanese war effort. Nagasaki was a backup target after Kokura, another city with important war-related industry.

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:36 am

Kyle wrote: Hiroshima was chosen because it was the site of a major army depot and had some industry that helped the Japanese war effort. Nagasaki was a backup target after Kokura, another city with important war-related industry.

Thanks Kyle. I meant to point out the military aspects of those targets myself but forgot when I got carried away on another tangent!
The cities selected weren't just names drawn out of a hat. They both had significant military importance. To quote a wiki on the subject:
A number of military camps were located near Hiroshima, including the headquarters of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's 2nd General Army which commanded the defense of all southern Japan. Field Marshal Hata's 2nd General Army was headquartered in the Hiroshima Castle and his command consisted of some 400,000 men, most of whom were on Kyushu where an Allied invasion was correctly expected. Also present in Hiroshima was the headquarters of the 5th Division, 59th Army, and most of the 224th Division, a recently formed mobile unit.The city 's air defenses comprised five batteries of 7-and-8-centimetre (2.8 and 3.1 in) anti-aircraft guns. In total, 40,000 military personnel were stationed inside the city.
Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops.
The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials. The four largest companies in the city were Mitsubishi Shipyards, Electrical Shipyards, Arms Plant, and Steel and Arms Works, which employed about 90% of the city's labor force, and accounted for 90% of the city's industry.
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Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Kyle » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:50 am

Yes, it was a little different than the US simply deciding on cities to go after civilians. Of course many civilians did die, and it was well known they would, but the targets were chosen first and foremost due to military reasons. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with the decision, I think we can all agree it wasn't a good decision, though the alternative would've been a land invasion which arguably may or may not have cost even more lives. If simply killing lots of people was the goal, Tokyo would have been target #1. It wasn't even one of the 4 or 5 cities put on the list for consideration.

Also, I do wonder why people forget the firebombing which went on throughout the war which killed more people than the atomic bombs.

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:38 pm

Kyle wrote: Also, I do wonder why people forget the firebombing which went on throughout the war which killed more people than the atomic bombs.

Caused just as much damage too; greater if you exclude the effects of radioactivity.
People remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but forget the massive destruction caused by the firebombings of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, and enough other places that, combined,far exceeded the death and destruction caused by the two atomic bombs in Japan.
I think though that's because people suddenly realized that total destruction was now much too easy.
In a way, we should be glad of those bombs. Not for the destruction they caused, but for the likely far greater destruction their use may have prevented ever since. After all, no atomic or nuclear bombs have been used on actual targets ever since - at least up to now. Whereas how many more major wars might we have engaged in had the atomic bomb never been developed? Several by now, I'd say.
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Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Kyle » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:50 pm

Somebody was going to build an atomic bomb sooner or later. Germany was already researching it and that's a big reason the US started looking into one. It was actually thought we might use it on Germany first, but of course they got knocked out of the war before Japan.

It's probably the first weapon humans ever created we decided were too dangerous to be used.

I do get why people remember the atom bombs. They were quick, sudden, and massive, compared to thousands and thousands of firebombs which just slowly killed over time and, to be blunt and a bit cold-hearted, just aren't as impressive. But you don't have to have atomic weapons to kill a lot of people.

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:35 pm

Kyle wrote:But you don't have to have atomic weapons to kill a lot of people.

True; but it helps.
The point is that atomic weapons made war too easy and too destructive; even our enemies were horrified at the thought of their being used. I still contend that in the long run - so far that is - their existence has proved more beneficial than otherwise, although we definitely could have gone without the economy-killing Arms Race we engaged in as a result of them. Major war has been limited to third-world countries ever since 1945; would this have still been true had not just developed the bomb but demonstrated it for all the world to be horrified by? I sure doubt our sense of Humanity only was the reason!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby drawscore » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:08 pm

2-4-6-8
Nuke 'em 'til they radiate!

Old Uncle Sam
Is gettin' kinda hot!
Gonna turn Iran
Into a parking lot.

Turn the rocks into pebbles;
The pebbles into sand,
Bomb Iran, bomb bomb,
Bomb bomb Iran!

Go ahead, Jason, roll your eyes. :-)

Drawscore

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:38 pm

drawscore wrote:
Go ahead, Jason, roll your eyes. :-)

Drawscore

:roll: Happy to oblige! :roll:
I hope to God conservatives like you are filtered out of the gene pool before Humanity renders itself extinct!!!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Chris12 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:31 am

I wasn't really arguing with the morality of the atomic bombing. Its just that America doesn't really have a right to hold a grudge when they already paid pearl harbour back tenfold. The debt has been paid. China on the other hand never got a chance to extract retribution so any grudge of theirs is far more understandable.

I think the mass bombings of Germany where somewhat of a shame. The country became a lot less interesting of a result. Dresden for example was considered the Florence of the north and now all that made that reputation was little more then rubble when they where done. Berlin also lost most of its historic buildings thanks to the red army.

Japan can count itself very lucky Kyoto wasn't chosen to drop the atomic bomb, allegedly because the American general had his honeymoon there.

Oh, Drawcore. Thanks for illustrating how America alienated half of the world (and counting) by now :D

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:26 am

Chris12 wrote:I wasn't really arguing with the morality of the atomic bombing. Its just that America doesn't really have a right to hold a grudge when they already paid pearl harbour back tenfold. :D

What makes you think we still hold a grudge against Japan? We may commemorate the occasion with a holiday, but that's not the same thing.
I for one am not personally aware that America still does hold a grudge against Japan... or Germany either (except maybe the Jews). Quite the opposite if anything. I loved it in Germany and liked the people I met there very much; I certainly wasn't worried about their Nazi past (only 40 years previously back then), and even as a kid never thought of the Japanese as anything other than the source of cartoons like Speed Racer and Astro Boy and monsters like Godzilla. Even watching shows like Hogan's Heroes never made me think bad of Germans living today/back then (or McHale's Navy the Japanese); I knew it was all in the past.
Perhaps the 'Greatest generation' held grudges; as far as I know mine did not nor any American generation since. It's been Forgive and Forget for the vast majority of us... even most of the otherwise warlike conservatives.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Chris12 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:43 am

I thought pearl harbour was still a sore spot.

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:43 am

Chris12 wrote:I thought pearl harbour was still a sore spot.

Quite possibility it is... in Pearl Harbor and Hawaii in general anyway. I dunno personally; never been anywhere near there. But for America in general and my part in particular (which admittedly is about as far from Pearl Harbor as you can get in this country - 5000 miles or 8,000 km); heck no. We got over it - much better than the Japanese have gotten over Hiroshima and Nagasaki at any rate (despite the fact that they came out with much less of a shellacking than Germany did overall, again imo thanks largely to the timely use of those atomic bombs). :D We got our revenge, we removed the militarists from power, honor was satisfied, we taught the Japanese the error of their ways, helped them to their feet, dusted them off, re-booted their economy and helped fix the damage, shook hands, made up, and resumed major trade and normal diplomatic relations with them. And that was that.
Besides, we're too busy with idiot politicians in our own government, illegal immigrants, Islamist extremists, the Chinese, and the Russians to worry about long-dead grudges these days.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby drawscore » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:06 pm

I have been to Pearl Harbor, and the Arizona Memorial. I have also seen buildings still standing at Hickam AFB, adjacent to Pearl Harbor Naval Station, that still have bullet holes from the strafing by the Japanese attack force. It was a powerful and moving experience, and I recommend it to all.

Drawscore

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:40 pm

drawscore wrote:I have been to Pearl Harbor, and the Arizona Memorial. I have also seen buildings still standing at Hickam AFB, adjacent to Pearl Harbor Naval Station, that still have bullet holes from the strafing by the Japanese attack force. It was a powerful and moving experience, and I recommend it to all.

Drawscore

So... do you still hold a grudge for the Japanese about Pearl Harbor?
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby drawscore » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:56 pm

Did I say that? I said I had been to Pearl Harbor and Hickam AFB, and seen the USS Arizona memorial, and buildings that still had bullet holes, 72 years after the fact. Do you have to read something in to my posts all the time?

BTW, as a military brat, I lived in Japan for 2 1/2 years, and in Hawaii for two.

Drawscore

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:21 pm

drawscore wrote:Did I say that? I said I had been to Pearl Harbor and Hickam AFB, and seen the USS Arizona memorial, and buildings that still had bullet holes, 72 years after the fact. Do you have to read something in to my posts all the time?

BTW, as a military brat, I lived in Japan for 2 1/2 years, and in Hawaii for two.

Drawscore

Now,did I say you said that? No. I didn't. I didn't read s**t into your post that wasn't clearly there (unlike you with mine). Evidently you are NOT following this conversation, or my actual intention would have been obvious.
I am simply asking you if, since Chris12 seems to have the (to me odd and unexpected) impression Americans ae still angry at Japan about Pearl Harbor, what's your take on it? Since, after all, if anyone is likely to be angry at anything that was done to the US, it would be you!
Get it now? Was that so hard to figure out?
Now then, please... a simple answer to a simple question. Do you, personally, having been there yourself and all that, do you feel a grudge about Pearl Harbor?
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby drawscore » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:11 pm

It is said that "Time heals all wounds." Since I was not alive at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, I probably do not have the feelings that a Pearl Harbor survivor might have.

I was very young when I lived in Japan, and had no animus toward the Japanese people. So, no, I do not hold a grudge. It's over. The Japanese are our political allies. We have full diplomatic relations, and significant trade between the US and Japan. The war ended 68 years ago. No reason to hold a grudge.

Drawscore

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:53 am

drawscore wrote:It is said that "Time heals all wounds." Since I was not alive at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, I probably do not have the feelings that a Pearl Harbor survivor might have.

I was very young when I lived in Japan, and had no animus toward the Japanese people. So, no, I do not hold a grudge. It's over. The Japanese are our political allies. We have full diplomatic relations, and significant trade between the US and Japan. The war ended 68 years ago. No reason to hold a grudge.

Drawscore

Thank you. That is what I figured.
Hopefully Chris 12 sees that, and realizes that Americans really are past Pearl Harbor.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Just to butt in here...

Postby Mister Mistoffelees » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:56 am

...but Chris, I see you list your residence as the Netherlands. Check out what the Japanese did to your countrymen in the Dutch East Indies (today Indonesia), particularly to civilians, if you want to get the measure of what that military was back in those days. Entire civilian populations were murdered (actually tortured to death in many cases) in places like Balikpapan and Tjepu, and their troops seemed to enjoy their work...
Welcome to Snowden! Enter at your own risk...

Re: Just to butt in here...

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:01 am

Mister Mistoffelees wrote:...but Chris, I see you list your residence as the Netherlands. Check out what the Japanese did to your countrymen in the Dutch East Indies (today Indonesia), particularly to civilians, if you want to get the measure of what that military was back in those days. Entire civilian populations were murdered (actually tortured to death in many cases) in places like Balikpapan and Tjepu, and their troops seemed to enjoy their work...

Stirring the pot of discord, are we? Are you Mister Mistoffeless, or Mister Mesphistopheles?! 8)
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Just to butt in here...

Postby Chris12 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:16 am

Mister Mistoffelees wrote:...but Chris, I see you list your residence as the Netherlands. Check out what the Japanese did to your countrymen in the Dutch East Indies (today Indonesia), particularly to civilians, if you want to get the measure of what that military was back in those days. Entire civilian populations were murdered (actually tortured to death in many cases) in places like Balikpapan and Tjepu, and their troops seemed to enjoy their work...


um...I never said anything about Japanese troops being all nice and friendly so either we have a misunderstanding or you got the wrong adress. In fact I stated in this very topic I found them worse then the Nazi's . I'm quite awhere of what the Japanese troops did in the east indies, The ''jappen camps'' are quite a horrifying subject in our history class with lots of pictures included in our books. I'm also awhere of other atrocities like Nanking and the infamous unit...I can't recall the exact number but it was a ''science'' program that would put Joseph Mengele to shame.

The fact they horrified the Nazi's speaks volumes. Japan was hands down the most evil country in the war. Far more then Germany and far more then Russia.

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Mister Mistoffelees » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:27 am

Well, what can I say? Sometimes I just have to start stuff! Mephistopheles indeed!...

As to your original question, Chris, Pearl is something most Americans really don't think much about anymore except perhaps to blame it all on FDR (how's that for Mephistophelean, Jason? :lol: ), tinfoil-hattery being one of the great American hobbies in the 21st Century. Pearl has been supplanted as our national source of hatred by 9/11; where once upon a time it was possible to convince Americans that Japanese were capable of any evil (my grandmother had her hat strapped on tight, for example), now they've been supplanted as Eeeevil Geeniuses(tm) by Muslims...
Welcome to Snowden! Enter at your own risk...

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:57 am

Mister Mistoffelees wrote:Pearl has been supplanted as our national source of hatred by 9/11; where once upon a time it was possible to convince Americans that Japanese were capable of any evil (my grandmother had her hat strapped on tight, for example), now they've been supplanted as Eeeevil Geeniuses(tm) by Muslims...

i think you missed a few generations of bad guys along the way there, Mr.M. I was a kid in the 1960s; i clearly recall when WWII was less than 20 years in the past and WWII was still a popular topic of everyday conversation (my parents having grown up in the era). Even by then, the Japanese and the germans were no longer considered the enemy; and hadn't been in years. They had long since been replaced by the ultimate boogeymen of the time... the communists (or Commies, as we more usually called them). Russians (who can forget Boris Badenov and Natasha?) were out to conquer or destroy the world (or so we thought) and only the heroes like James Bond were there to protect our freedoms. As if real-life villains like Castro, Mao, Stalin, and Khrushchev weren't bad enough, we had many others to invade our TV action shows (Man from Uncle, Get Smart, Jonny Quest) to give us kids nightmares in our sleep or practice duck-and-cover under our school desks. No, the Commies were such big bad boogey-men that the Japanese and the Germans were forgiven pretty quickly all in all, and remained boogey-man until they struck out and the Islamic extremists stepped up to the plate. Once they've been struck down (as eventually they will be), it'll be someone else - Chinese commie-capitalists or Tea Party uber-captialists; perhaps.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Mister Mistoffelees » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:53 am

Once they've been struck down (as eventually they will be), it'll be someone else - Chinese commie-capitalists or Tea Party uber-captialists; perhaps.


I spy with my little eye...drawscore coming to castigate you about Tealibanis!

And Boris and Natasha? They were some of my heroes growing up--alongside other luminaries like Snidely Whiplash and other villains who liked to tie up girls... :D
Welcome to Snowden! Enter at your own risk...

Re: Nanking Massarce

Postby Chris12 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:36 am

Actually survivors of Nanking still live on to this day, be it in increasingly dwindling numbers. While apologising wouldn't make things less horrible I think it would be a nice gesture towards them.

Also I don't think their children where all to happy with their neighbours scarring their parents for life.