## Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Chris12 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:45 am

So quite a lot happened in Ukraine the last couple of months.
A couple of months back the pro Russian prime minister Yanukovych decided to reject a trade treaty with the EU in partly because he wanted his government to be closer to Russia and partly because Putin was bribing/threatening him. Yanukovych got cheaper gass and millions of aid from Russia and Putin got a bigger influence in Ukraine.
This angered a lot of people in the Ukraine, some of them because they want to move closer to Europa but most of them just had it with Yanukovych's corruption. There where protests, things got violent and last week Yanukovych fled to Putin with his tail between his leg. Seems Europa had won out despite acting without a spine the entire time.
And now things have gotten more then a little out of hand. Ukraine is almost bankrupt and there are genuine fears about a war with Russia. While the pro European, as well as the nationalist are happy to have driven Russia's influence out lots of pro Russian people are a lot less happy. Crimea in the south is quite angry and doesn't recognise the new government and Russia(unsurprisingly) agrees. Now we hear all kind of talks about the country splitting in two and in the worst case scenario a Russian invasion to help out their ''brothers'' in Crimea. I don't think Putin would go that for but armed bands as well as Russian soldiers and vehicles DID show up in Crimea.
And now the Russian Senate has just approved by unanimity moving forces to the ukranian peninsule of Crimea....Hoo-boy
I don't think we will have world war III for quite a while yet but I think the situation in Ukraine might just explode unless everyone involved will be very carefull

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Tieup1 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:16 am

There has been a lot of bad stuff going on in the Ukraine over the last few weeks, with ordinary civilians bearing the brunt of the violence, many lives were lost. Most of the people in the Ukraine want a change, have closer ties with Europe.
The Russian speaking people of the Crimea obviously don't, enter Mr Putin, who wants to keep his hold over the Ukraine. So what does he do, he sends in some of his troops. This coming from a man who condemns the West when they get invovled in foreign disputes. From what I have read in the papers, the British Prime Mininister, and other leaders have already aked Mr. Putin to remove his troops.
Putin should keep out of it, and let the people of the Ukraine decide their own future, easier said than done, methinks.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by drawscore » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:31 pm

And if Russia does go in to the Ukraine, Obama, who will have one thumb in his mouth, and the other one in his ass, will stand by and wait for Harry Reid to yell "Switch!"
Drawscore

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Kyle » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:53 pm

Russia is getting involved in another country's mess? I thought that was our job.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Chris12 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:36 am

> Putin should keep out of it, and let the people of the Ukraine decide their own future, easier said than done, methinks.

A often talked about theory that explains Putin's meddling is that Ukraine is Russia's ''brother country'' which isn't entirely incorrect as the two have deep cultural and historic bonds. Putin therefore believes that the situation in Ukraine could one day mirror his own. If their ''brothers'' in Ukraine reject their corrupt ''pseudo dictator'' then what stops Russia from rejecting theirs.

> And if Russia does go in to the Ukraine, Obama, who will have one thumb in his mouth, and the other one in his ass, will stand by and wait for Harry Reid to yell "Switch!"

He's not entirely unrelated of course but honestly, the situation in the Ukraine seems more like Merkels problem then Obama's. If Merkel acts which she probably will I can't see America not following suit.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Tieup1 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:07 pm

The United Nations need to put pressure on Putin, he has to remove his troops, then talks can begin. He most probably thinks, that if the Ukraine goes it alone, and has a closer relationship with Europe, he will be isolated. Which could be the case, but why should one man, who wants to hold on to his power, restrict another country from choosing their own future.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by putasockinit2 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:21 pm

what worries me about this situation is that it has a lot of similarities to Nazi Germany in world war 2. When you think about it, Europe don't want Russia in Ukraine, same as we didn't want Germany in Poland. Now Russia is mobilising troops towards the Ukraine, similar to Hitler ordering the Nazis to march into Poland and seize control. When the Nazis marched into Poland un wanted, world war 2 broke out. When Russia walk into Ukraine, which will be soon, will the world react like it did then? or are we going to try and reason with Putin? This situation is very dangerous for both sides and one false move or slip up could result in a very costly war, or worse, but we don't want to think about that.
Equally I may have just got the wrong end of the stick here and im talking rubbish, in which case tell me haha
'Too many friends and not enough true friends'
The Kanye of tugs
Stuck between wanting to quit and wanting to stay...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Kyle » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:33 pm

How is Russia justifying moving troops into Ukraine? Throughout this entire deal, I have yet to hear Russia's justification. It really seems to me they're pretty blatant about simply being pissed Ukraine might actually do something they don't like.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Jay Feely » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:16 pm

Russia has done it now and they will face sanctions.
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Chris12 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:17 am

> Kyle wrote:How is Russia justifying moving troops into Ukraine? Throughout this entire deal, I have yet to hear Russia's justification. It really seems to me they're pretty blatant about simply being pissed Ukraine might actually do something they don't like.

Then I don't think your listening well enough Russia can't shut up about doing it to protect the Russians living in Crimea rather then anything sinister.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by vantran » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:22 am

The West had its share of interventions in other countriees, although not really for nationalistic or territorial concerns. Russia and others did not scream "it's a violation of rights/international law!" .

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Jason Toddman » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:03 am

> Chris12 wrote:

> > Kyle wrote:How is Russia justifying moving troops into Ukraine? Throughout this entire deal, I have yet to hear Russia's justification. It really seems to me they're pretty blatant about simply being pissed Ukraine might actually do something they don't like.

> Then I don't think your listening well enough Russia can't shut up about doing it to protect the Russians living in Crimea rather then anything sinister.

Didn't Hitler cite a similar reason for invading the Sudetenland and Austria?
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by putasockinit2 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:43 am

> Jason Toddman wrote:

> > Chris12 wrote:

> > > Kyle wrote:How is Russia justifying moving troops into Ukraine? Throughout this entire deal, I have yet to hear Russia's justification. It really seems to me they're pretty blatant about simply being pissed Ukraine might actually do something they don't like.

> > Then I don't think your listening well enough Russia can't shut up about doing it to protect the Russians living in Crimea rather then anything sinister.

> Didn't Hitler cite a similar reason for invading the Sudetenland and Austria?

Thats the point i was trying to make, is it history repeating itself? Only time will tell...
'Too many friends and not enough true friends'
The Kanye of tugs
Stuck between wanting to quit and wanting to stay...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Jason Toddman » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:17 pm

Oops. I somehow missed your post completely when I was scrolling down. Sorry about that. And here i thought I was being original!
Meant to mention Poland too but forgot. Just as well now i guess.
Anyway, I don't think you're far off the track at all.
Unfortunately.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Jack Roper » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:57 pm

Here's a cute cartoon about Ukraine and the current crisis.
http://kos.salsalabs.com/dia/track.jsp? ... JF%2BoUlNQ

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by vantran » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:05 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26558288

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by vantran » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:08 pm

The war drums are beating louder...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26564846

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Jason Toddman » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:12 pm

I do hope we don't get into a new war over this. Things are bad enough as they are already.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Chris12 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:01 am

And Crimea is part of Russia now. By a totally legitimate referendum that in no way challenged international law and didn't involve threatening Russian soldiers in any way shape or form.
Congrats Crimea, it may all gonna backfire horribly for all involved.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Mister Mistoffelees » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:53 pm

Which also, Chris, happens to take away Ukraine's only navigable access to the Black Sea, leaving that nation essentially landlocked. Should Ukraine just sit down and shut up at having a major window on the world taken away from them against their will?...
Welcome to Snowden! Enter at your own risk...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:18 pm

I think the important thing here is... what did the folks living in the Crimea want? Did they want to be part of Russia, part of Ukraine, or be an independent nation? Their wishes should be the deciding factor. Of course, in reality that doesn't happen very often.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Chris12 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:19 pm

They shouldn't....but I think they will. Crimea is lost for the moment and there isn't much Ukraine can do against Russia, especially when they the eastern parts of their country to worry about. There's lots of pro Russian riots going on there and Putin has already said its possible he would go there to take over...erh I mean protect the Russians living there.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:24 pm

Yeah, and people are criticizing Hillary Clinton for comparing Putin to Hitler. But Hitler used the same 'excuse' to invade Poland and other places.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Chris12 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:25 pm

> Jason Toddman wrote:I think the important thing here is... what did the folks living in the Crimea want? Did they want to be part of Russia, part of Ukraine, or be an independent nation? Their wishes should be the deciding factor. Of course, in reality that doesn't happen very often.

Depends on who you are. The Ukrainians living there obviously don't want this and to the native Tartar minority it must be pretty horrifying but those two groups are in the minority. The majority of the Crimean people are Russians who do want to become part of Russia again but that's what makes it all so strange. Why do this referendum at gunpoint when the majority is already on your side. What use did it have to intimidate the tartars and Ukrainians with troops when the Russian voters outnumber them.
The Russian majority may have wanted and voted for this but the fact remains that because it happened under the intimating eye of foreign troops that this referendum is a farce.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:31 pm

Maybe Ukraine and Crimea should try having an amicable exchange of citizens between countries who prefer to live in the other; it'd be a tad expensive and chaotic but it'd be peaceful and much less potentially destructive. I know that oversimplifies the problem somewhat, but surely it's better than war?
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Chris12 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:34 pm

That would work with the Ukrainians but the Tartars consider themselves the original people of Crimea, which they are. They are unlikely to leave their home for Ukraine.

> Yeah, and people are criticizing Hillary Clinton for comparing Putin to Hitler. But Hitler used the same 'excuse' to invade Poland and other places.

Yes but...well the only one you bring down by involving Hitler in any discussion is yourself.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:40 pm

> Chris12 wrote: Yes but...well the only one you bring down by involving Hitler in any discussion is yourself.

Besides which, it smacks of Godwin's Law - namely, when you compare anything to Hitler/the nazis, you automatically lose the argument.
Problem with that is when something happens (and eventually something WILL happen) that really IS comparable to Hitler and Nazi atrocities. To believe those were, and would forever be, unique events in history is to understand NOTHING about history.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by vantran » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:20 pm

Sanctions wont work in an economy as large as Russia's. Sure its not a major economic power (but it is becoming one), but that is like adding pins to stop thieves from trying to enter your home.

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by Tieup1 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:41 pm

Lets be honest, Putin is a bully, he's used strong arm tactics to get his own way. I just hope it all ends peacefully. Perhaps some of the Ukranians will leave Crimea, and live in the Ukraine.
The Tartars, will see this differently, they will feel persecuted, a small minority, against the might of Russia. Will they leave, or will they be forced out ?

### Re: Ukraine, Crimea and Russia.

Post by vantran » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:51 am

> Tieup1 wrote:Lets be honest, Putin is a bully, he's used strong arm tactics to get his own way. I just hope it all ends peacefully. Perhaps some of the Ukranians will leave Crimea, and live in the Ukraine.
> The Tartars, will see this differently, they will feel persecuted, a small minority, against the might of Russia. Will they leave, or will they be forced out ?

Define Ukrainians in Crimea. It is filled with ethnic Russians.