Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:49 pm

The verdict is in. Zimmerman, like O.J. before him, got away with killing someone. It might not have been murder, but it sure as hell was a tragedy any way you look at it. Of course, his troubles aren't over yet. He'll probably be sued by the Martin family for wrongful death - and probably lose as O.J. lost his own wrongful death suit - and likely won't be able to live a normal life for a long time to come. He may have his fans, but he has so many enemies too that his life probably won't be safe anywhere he goes, though the NRA probably will make him their 2013 poster boy or something.
Well, I don't say he should go to jail anyway despite his acquittal. But I have no sympathy for the guy; he brought his troubles on himself with his rash actions. I just wonder if that jerk can really sleep at night.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jay Feely » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:31 am

He could have let it go and walked away, he could have done good for the neigborhood, but instead he took a life. I agree with you Jason Toddman.
You will have to subdue me to restrain me. I been a bad boy so make sure you torture me too with anything but pain.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby sarobah » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:41 am

Gosh… I used to be a lover of all things American, but these days I would be afraid to visit the US. It’s just too dangerous.*
I anticipate a massive increase in shooting deaths, especially those involving unarmed African-Americans (as the victims, of course).
Zimmerman probably should have been found not guilty, since the one witness who could testify against him is dead; but I have no doubt that the stand-your-ground law will become an excuse for racial (and other) killings.
And I expect African-Americans to begin taking steps for their own self-protection. It will not end well.

* And being a blue-eyed blond won’t protect me. Apparently self-defense and SYG are only for white males.
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Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the soul within.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:31 am

Pretty damn ridiculous, isn't it? Zimmerman walks and this woman, who didn't even kill anyone, gets twenty years for firing warning shots against an abusive husband. You're right Sarobah... the justice system in my country is totally effing whacked! Zimmerman getting off is one thing, but then seeing this happen at about the same time proves there's definitely a double standard in the justice system. It's so unreal.
I don't know about the blue-eyed blond part not helping you though; remember, the woman in the story is black. Probably made a difference regardless of the husband's race, sad to say.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Phantom1905 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:01 am

In all honest reality after the Casey Anthony trial her life was ruined, so the same might happen to Zimmerman.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Kyle » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:02 am

Actually that case is an anomaly, as women tend to get much shorter sentences for the same crimes as men in the US, on average, and most studies indicate gender is actually a bigger factor than race in criminal sentencing. But anyway...

I don't agree with the verdict. It sounds like Zimmerman was looking for trouble for a while, and he sure found it. I don't know what the jury saw. I didn't keep up with the case much. I just know the story I've heard makes it hard for me to believe he didn't get convicted for at least manslaughter. I don't know if Zimmerman ever set out to kill Martin or not, but he certainly was looking for some kind of trouble. I'm a big believer in the right to self-defense, but I can't for the life of me see how this was a case of self-defense.

All that said, I do think this whole thing was a media-driven sensation from the beginning. Even though I think he was guilty, it was kind of funny to see the media dance around trying to figure out how to react once it became known Zimmerman was Hispanic and whether to keep going with their angle of him being a guy looking to kill some black kid. The media created the race circus on this one. They did succeed in bringing out a lot of racists out of the closet.

I guess I can't entirely blame the media for being attracted to this case. It had almost everything the media looks for in a sensational story: race, guns, violence, and later, their own media bias became part of the story...if they could've squeezed abortion and/or gay marriage in it would've been the perfect story.

I do kind of wonder how George Zimmerman sleeps at night too. It's hard to see any way this wouldn't have happened if he hadn't gone after Trayvon Martin.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:28 am

Kyle wrote:I do kind of wonder how George Zimmerman sleeps at night too. It's hard to see any way this wouldn't have happened if he hadn't gone after Trayvon Martin.

You meant would, not wouldn't, in that context didn't you?

Phantom1905 wrote:In all honest reality after the Casey Anthony trial her life was ruined, so the same might happen to Zimmerman.

Could be. Perhaps by Florida law he committed no murder. But that doesn't mean he was right in what he did, and I hope his conscience keeps him up at nights! In any case, it'll be a long time before the public lets him forget it.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Kyle » Sun Jul 14, 2013 10:47 am

Yes, I meant "would've."

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby drawscore » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:33 pm

Before we all jump on the "hang Zimmerman" bandwagon, first, consider that the information released to the press and public may not have been complete, and the jury may have seen and heard much more before coming to its conclusion.

Next, depending on who you talk to, Martin was the aggressor, striking Zimmerman from behind, as he walked back to his vehicle. This may or may not be accurate, but it is a possibility to be considered.

The character of Trayvon Martin was not questioned. Missing from the newspapers and most TV reports, were pictures of Martin as he was at the time. His tattoos, gold teeth, pictures of him with guns and marijuana plants, were never shown, and the fact that he was in Sanford because he had been suspended from school, was either played down, or not mentioned at all.

Then, we have all the pictures of Martin as some angelic 13-14 year old, not the 6' 2" almost grown man, who practiced mixed martial arts.

There is no doubt that his death was tragic and unfortunate. But the evidence indicates that Martin attacked Zimmerman, not the other way around. If he had not done so, he would be alive today.

Oh, and don't overlook the possibility of prosecutorial misconduct. It seems a worker in the prosecutor's office was concerned about evidential material in the possession of the prosecutor, which was not turned over to the defense, as required by law. The worker alerted the defense, and for "blowing the whistle," he was fired.

Drawscore

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Phantom1905 » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:46 pm

People like Zimmerman, Anthony, and O.J are probably so over come with guilt that they probably are not sleeping as well as they would.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Kyle » Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:16 pm

I will give the jury the benefit of the doubt; as I said earlier they saw a lot more than I did.

I know Trayvon was a long way from being a perfect angel. On the other hand, Zimmerman pretty clearly was looking to be some kind of hero and stop a criminal, as he had expressed frustration at some thieves who had gotten away before that. If he hadn't zealously been looking out for something this probably wouldn't have happened. I know he was a self-appointed neighborhood watch person, but there's a limit to what they are supposed to be able to do, and should be doing.

Do I think Zimmerman is some evil devil who wanted to be a cold-blooded murderer? No. I think he was clearly looking for trouble and either found it or created it and made a bad decision.

Now that I've said all that, the media coverage about this whole case was a complete farce from the beginning.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby drawscore » Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:21 pm

>>>the media coverage about this whole case was a complete farce from the beginning.<<<

On that, we agree. It can best be described as a two horse race by horses owned by Martin and Zimmerman. According to the media, Martin's horse came in second, while Zimmerman's horse came in next to last.

Drawscore

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:17 pm

Phantom1905 wrote:People like Zimmerman, Anthony, and O.J are probably so over come with guilt that they probably are not sleeping as well as they would.

Maybe,but I doubt it.

drawscore wrote:Before we all jump on the "hang Zimmerman" bandwagon... Drawscore

I for one am doing no such thing. Under the circumstances the jury did its job as well; as it could. They weren't asked to judge Zimmerman's character; they were asked if there was no reasonable doubt that Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin in cold blood. They decided - rightly I might add - that there WAS reasonable doubt and acquited. I don't blame the jury for anything. They did what they could within the limits of the law.
It's the law itself I question.
Anyone who thinks the results of this isn't going to encourage racist Yahoos from going out and looking for trouble, and then pleading self defense Standing their Ground when they find that trouble, is living in a fool's paradise. I'm not saying laws like Stand You Ground need to be abolished; but I think they do need some serious scrutiny and maybe some adjustments to reflect reality.

drawscore wrote:Next, depending on who you talk to, Martin was the aggressor, striking Zimmerman from behind, as he walked back to his vehicle. This may or may not be accurate, but it is a possibility to be considered.
The character of Trayvon Martin was not questioned. Missing from the newspapers and most TV reports, were pictures of Martin as he was at the time. His tattoos, gold teeth, pictures of him with guns and marijuana plants, were never shown, and the fact that he was in Sanford because he had been suspended from school, was either played down, or not mentioned at all.
Then, we have all the pictures of Martin as some angelic 13-14 year old, not the 6' 2" almost grown man, who practiced mixed martial arts.
There is no doubt that his death was tragic and unfortunate. But the evidence indicates that Martin attacked Zimmerman, not the other way around. If he had not done so, he would be alive today.
Drawscore

Standard conservative tactic of blame the victim, in other words. Typical.
Yes, Martin was no angel. Personally I never met anyone who was. So he liked guns and martial arts, smoked marijauna, had tattoos, and gold teeth and liked to talk tough. So do ten million other teenagers, black or white; you think we should just lock them up or shoot them all? If all this was true of him but he'dbeen white and Zimmerman black, would these matter to you so much then - or even at all? Not assuming, mind you; just asking.
In any case, it's all water under the bridge. He was acquitted, and I for one am not a vigilante. He might not have been criminally culpable, but morally I think is a different story... but that's between him and God, is there is one.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:19 pm

Kyle wrote:Now that I've said all that, the media coverage about this whole case was a complete farce from the beginning.

Quite true; especially as imo the way you said it is much more unbiased than the way Drawscore said it.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Games_Bond » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:32 pm

The media have a problem in that they forgot to presume Zimmerman innocent. It is a bedrock principle of America's criminal justice system and many people forget about it when it suits them. Sooner or later that'll bite you in the rear end. The media look bias here and that's because... they are! :mouthopen:

Zimmerman MAY be a cold blooded murderer that has walked free; that is fine by me in the context of knowing that this is a necessary evil as required to have a high burden of proof before someone is convicted. So hurrah for the justice system! Oops no, wait a minute... Zimmerman walks free and meanwhile a teenager is being tortured in jail for doing nothing legal or morally wrong (i.e. telling a joke). Seems there is something wrong somewhere. Oh and don't forget the man hunt for Snowden... you know, as a "thank-you" for revealing just how much privacy you don't actually have.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:53 pm

Games_Bond wrote:The media look bias here and that's because... they are! :mouthopen:

That works in both directions you realize; liberally biased media exists hand in hand with the conservatively biased media. It always has. Perhaps always will. Which is one big reason I pay relatively little attention to the media compared to some here. There seems little that is UNbiased.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Games_Bond » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:12 pm

I just follow these simple rules:

1. Never form an opinion having heard only one side of the story
2. Take note of how good the Reporter is at proving what they say has been fact-checked reliably
3. Beware any "news" item that tells you how you should feel about something
4. Do not believe any factual claims made dogmatically, with no corroborating evidence offered
5. An argument is not at its strongest if it is not being made by someone who believes it
6. Where possible, do your own research

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:47 pm

Games_Bond wrote:I just follow these simple rules:

Although I have never made a formal list like this, I have pretty much been doing this most of my life anyway... especially as these are also some of the fundamental and logical steps of the Scientific Method by which scientific theories are either proven or discarded.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Kyle » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:33 pm

Jason Toddman wrote:
Games_Bond wrote:The media look bias here and that's because... they are! :mouthopen:

That works in both directions you realize; liberally biased media exists hand in hand with the conservatively biased media. It always has. Perhaps always will. Which is one big reason I pay relatively little attention to the media compared to some here. There seems little that is UNbiased.


It's impossible for media to be completely unbiased. Human nature will see to that. But some of them let their biases run their business more than others.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Kyle » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:40 pm

I heard someone today, who kept up with the trial far better than me and fully believes Zimmerman was guilty of at least manslaughter, say the prosecution's case was so weak it was almost impossible to convict him. There were similar claims about the Casey Anthony trial. Maybe Florida prosecutors just suck at their jobs.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby zanev » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:14 pm

Only in America can a brown man kill a black man and they blame white people
I close my eyes, Inis Mona
And reminisce of those palmy days
I moon o'er you, Inis Mona
As long as I breathe
I'll call you my home

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Kyle » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:46 pm

zanev wrote:Only in America can a brown man kill a black man and they blame white people


I'm not touching this one with a 10-foot pole.

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby drawscore » Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:17 pm

I have a couple of 11 foot poles.

Drawscore

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:51 am

This sounds like a job for... Nik Wallenda.
Not only for the pole, but now we're walking a tightrope here I think.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Mister Mistoffelees » Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:04 am

This was the classic case of "not guilty" and "innocent" being two very different things. The idea that Zimmerman is some kind of American Hero(tm) for his acts is, to put it in the vernacular of the peasantry, bullshit. What he really was, was a troublemaker who got in over his head, shot his way out of it, and was let off because an amateurish prosecutor's office (that at times looked like they were throwing the case) couldn't close the deal. Thousands of people on the web might weep with pity over "poor George," but I don't buy it. He should have stayed in the damned vehicle...
Welcome to Snowden! Enter at your own risk...

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Jul 18, 2013 9:36 am

george1909 wrote:Why from what i have read he was attacked first by the black youth who became annoyed he was being followed and jumped him and banged his head on the ground?

For one thing we have only Zimmerman's word for that - and Zimmerman could have lied to make his own deed look less reprehensible. This couldn't be factored into the trial however because the defendant has to be given all possible benefit of the doubt.
Personally, I think Zimmerman lied. A kid attacking a man who clearly has a gun on him? He'd have to be batshit crazy or righteously angry to do that! Maybe he was and did attack first (wouldn't YOU be annoyed if you were a kid and some butt ugly dude like Zimmerman was following you around - probably being verbally abusive at the same time?); certainly his history adds to the likelihood of this.
But it's not proof any more than Zimmerman's word is.
I that think what happened was that Zimmerman got confrontational and provoked Martin (probably with racial slurs) until even Gandhi would have decided enough was enough and lashed out. But I wasn't there. Neither was anyone else. No one knows what actually happened. So Zimmerman's word carried the day.
In the end, the burden of proof was on the prosecution - which really had an uphill battle and little to work with no matter how you slice it. They were bound to lose, and under the circumstances that's how it should be regardless of what I or anyone else thinks of this particular case.
And even if Martin did beat up Zimmerman; do you really think he deserves to die for it? How do we know he didn't think HE was standing HIS ground?
Or is that law only for white folks confronting black folks?
Maybe he was that violent because he knew Zimmerman had a gun, was scrabbling for it,and was afraid of being shot (which, as we know, he was). For all we know, he was acting out of self defense.
Think about it; if you think someone was trying to shoot you, would you hesitate to bash his head against the sidewalk?
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby ManRandomThe » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:08 am

Isn't Zimmerman hispanic?

Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:52 pm

Still makes him at least half-white. Still looks more white than otherwise regardless. Trayvon Martin wasn't white at all. So who do you think has the racial advantage (if any) there in the public perception?
Edit: Sorry Manrandomthe, I accidentally edited your post when I was trying to reply to it. A goof only a mod can make. :oops:
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Zimmerman Gets acquitted

Postby mikeybound » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:46 pm

So Zimmerman becomes the victim of a few thugs, joins the neighborhood watch, goes out with nothing but a gun and the plan "If they attack me, shoot them", and is the sole witness to this incident. Nothing going on there!