Because I’m a leftie...

Postby sarobah » Mon May 07, 2012 8:15 pm

This is mainly for the benefit of those who call themselves conservatives, but other folks may feel free to tune in :o)

The cardboard cut-out picture that most conservatives have of left-wingers is so out of touch with reality as to be downright bizarre.
The obvious example is Barack Obama. Anyone whose politics are to the left of Attila the Hun laughs out loud to see him being called a radical and a socialist. If you study your history, it’s obvious that he is the most conservative President since Eisenhower. In fact, I cannot see Obama warning Americans about the dangers of the military-industrial complex as Ike did. Ronald Reagan’s social and economic policies were, on the whole, more progressive than Obama’s. Richard Nixon’s health care reforms were more radical than anything Obama has proposed. (Indeed one of the tragedies of Watergate is that if Nixon hadn’t fallen, Americans would almost certainly have had universal health insurance 35 years ago.)
To those of us on the left, Obama is a disappointment, a moderate-conservative politician who wants to be loved by everyone and ends up pleasing no one. (I also believe Hillary Clinton was cheated of the Democratic nomination, but that’s another issue.)

Anyway, forget the stereotypes, red herrings and straw men. It is because I am a left-winger that...

(1) I support the US and in particular US foreign policy. The Americans saved the world from Hitler and Tojo. As an Australian, I would not exist if American boys hadn’t died defending us against the Japanese. The decision to use the atom bombs saved (it’s estimated) half a million American lives, ten million Japanese, several million Chinese lives. Truman should be canonized for that, not demonized as stay-at-home “pacifists” like to do.
The US has been involved in (and started) some unjust wars. Just like, in the past 75 years, Germany, Japan, Italy, the Soviet Union, France, Britain, Cuba, Iraq, Libya, Spain, the Netherlands and about a hundred other nations including, of course, Australia.

(2) I am not anti-war or anti-military. World War 2 was a just war, as was the Gulf War of 1990, the war against the Taliban, etcetera. Most of those “left-wingers” who claim to be anti-war have a suspiciously “right-wing” agenda. Keep in mind that until June 1941, the so-called left (i.e. communists, who are about as left-wing as Attila) opposed the war against Nazi Germany. The people who protested against the Gulf War generally supported the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, in which thousands of innocent civilians died.
I support the war on terrorism. I support the war in Afghanistan. (As a woman, I have one message for our soldiers fighting the Taliban: To borrow a line from Starship Troopers, “Kill them. Kill them all!”)

(3) I don’t rub my hands with glee at the impending fall of the American Empire. Mainly because it’s nonsense. Fifty years from now the US will still be the world’s commercial powerhouse. Which is good, because my country gets rich selling resources to China, which gets rich selling manufactured goods to Americans.

(4) Okay, since I’m on a Love America binge... A thousand years from now, only one event will be remembered from the lifetime of any person reading this – the moon landings.

(5) I believe in free enterprise. I don’t believe in state capitalism or crony capitalism.
Free enterprise means, surprisingly, FREE, as in free and equal opportunity for everyone, not just those born on the right side of the border, with rich parents, pale skin and a penis.

(6) I support immigration (unlike faux left-wingers) because immigration is GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY.

(7) I support environmental protection and resource conservation, not because I am a tree-hugging greenie but because it’s GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY.
I am a left-winger because I don’t like being poor.

(8) I fear Islamic fundamentalism, unlike faux left-wingers who embrace it because they’re too stupid to realize that the Islamists hate them as much as they hate America The Great Satan.
I am not anti-Islam. Unlike most of the Islamic terrorists (such as bin Laden, who was nothing more than a mobster protecting his Sudanese slave plantations), I have actually read the Quran and other Muslim literature and it can be a beautiful faith.

Well, I could go on, but if some people haven’t got the message by now, they never will.
Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the soul within.

Re: Because I’m a leftie...

Postby Kyle » Mon May 07, 2012 8:55 pm

The thing you have to understand about American politics is pretty much everyone is treated as a caricature, left-wing, right-wing, and everything in between. I've never been out of the US but based on things I've seen both here and elsewhere, it seems that is really the case in other countries as well, but nobody wants to admit they do it. Make no mistake about it, the right gets stereotyped as a bunch of racist, sexist, gun-totin' trailer trash who watch too much football and NASCAR and rant about the Mexican people down the road who take their jobs. Let's face it, there was no shortage of jokes of George W. Bush's good-ol' Texas heritage. It's not really a good way to have political discussions, but it's the way things are in US politics right now.

Re: Because I’m a leftie...

Postby drawscore » Mon May 07, 2012 11:05 pm

There was a time in US politics when there were some clashes between Republicans and Democrats, but both parties put the good of the country first. That has changed. Today's politicians don't give a damn about what's best for the country. What they do care about, is maintaining and keeping their power and office, or getting themselves elected to a higher office, and they will lie, cheat, commit election fraud and character assassination, and some will even kill (or contract the killing out) to do so.

Pardon me for being cynical about politics, but we have lying sacks of crap from both parties infesting Washington, and many are not only liars, but dumber than a box of rocks to boot. My favorite example is Nancy Pelosi, and her stupid statement about the ObamaCare bill: "We have to pass the bill so you can see what's in it." Gee, Nancy, don't you think it might have been better to see what's in the bill, and then pass it? And put it up on the internet for three days, for everyone to see and read, like you and Obama promised? And if it was such a good thing, why did you and your colleagues in congress, exempt yourselves from it?

Drawscore

Re: Because I’m a leftie...

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu May 10, 2012 10:13 am

I consider myself more of a center than either left or right, but otherwise I am in full agreement with most of the things Sarobah has said here except for the idea that Obama is actually more conservative than any president since Reagan (an assertion I'm surprised Drawscore has apparently not reacted to).
Bush Jr. is an outright reactionary and Reagan was once considered one by former standards (though perhaps not by current ones); saying Obama is more conservative than they seems a gross exaggeration to me.
At the same time, I agree he is less progressive than Carter, Clinton, Ford, or even Reagan. Hell, Reagan took a sucky economy and turned it around because he was decisive and knew how to get things done. If he were alive and in good health and running or president again I'd vote for him over Obama without hesitation.
Obama is definitely more cautious than any president since Ike except for Carter (who was not merely cautious but wishy-washy); too damned cautious for his own (or our) good I think. He is certainly no Socialist, nor as he made any attempt to push anything even remotely smacking of Socialist doctrine outside the Health Care reforms (which were watered down to begin with) in the eyes of anyone not prejudiced against *anything* he does.
Other than that little quibble though, I concur with everything Sarobah has said. Especially about environmental issues... everyone has gotten so worked up about global warming/climate change/whatever that they've lost sight of all the other important environmental issues such as pollution, resource depletion, the increasing scarcity of animal species important to us (such as whales, honeybees and many species of fish) and not just the infamously obscure ones (the great spotted owl), the ozone layer, and many others.
Oh and just one other related quibble. One other event in the lifetime of some of us will also be remembered a thousand years from now... World War II, which ended with the invention of the atomic bomb. That event marked a major turning point for the entire world in the space of just a few short years and most especially in the year of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If we ever revise the calendar to make a new starting date for civilization, IMO this would be the event that marks it, for the entire world changed in many,many ways because of the events of one year: 1945 (someday aka 1 AAE - After Atomic Era). I could go on and on about that but I won't do so (here at least) for not wanting to go off topic.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Because I’m a leftie...

Postby mistofoleese » Fri May 11, 2012 10:20 am

I have to admit you ALL make great points. Ive seen the " Good OL Boy Mentality" more times that I care to count and Lets face it, MORE Soldiers dies AFTER George JR landed on that carrier and said "Mission accomplished." As a Solider Ive never really followed the politics. Because for the last quarter of a century.Ive pretty much gone where they've told me to go. Reagan in MY opinion was awesome. So was George Sr his son that's another story.

Our Current president I do have a lot of respect for him, not only as a person but as the President But I think its Jimmy Carter all over again. I was too young to do anything about Him I voted For Ron I voted For both George and His son and I Voted for Mccain because They all supported the military.
Hell I had the honor of Meeting Commander Mccain in Iraq. That how we in my unit referred to him.
To us He was just another GI well another Officer but We had a lot of respect for him because
He made the time to come and visit with A LOT of units all over Iraq where the other candidates just met with a few officers then quietly left not even going over to Afgahnistan.

Im pretty much a Newbie in the world I guess. I've only been retired from the Army for little over a year now. Though I do keep up with the issues I try to do my part and help whenever and how ever I can.
Iv'e seen mans inhumanity to man in ALL forms over the years. I have a deep respect for ANYONE who has the courage to stand up and speak their mind though some people might not agree with it As long as no one is being hurt and no laws are broken all the better
I'm not as in tune with everything that is going on like some on the board.I will gladly step in to help If I think I can help.
What does that make me I really dont know

Re: Because I’m a leftie...

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri May 11, 2012 10:34 am

mistofoleese wrote:What does that make me I really dont know

A veteran who served his country to the best of his ability and someone whose opinions count just as much as anyone else's does, that's what! :D
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: Because I’m a leftie...

Postby mistofoleese » Thu May 17, 2012 10:36 am

Jason Toddman wrote:
mistofoleese wrote:What does that make me I really dont know

A veteran who served his country to the best of his ability and someone whose opinions count just as much as anyone else's does, that's what! :D

Thanks

Re: Because I’m a leftie...

Postby Games_Bond » Sat May 19, 2012 5:38 am

Excellent post Sarobah. I tend not to immerse myself in US Political debate precisely for the reasons that have been mentioned in this thread by everyone. This might be a chance for me to paint some kind of picture of my political beliefs without it becoming too distorted or otherwise caricaturised.

American Politics are by no means alone, but in many ways America leads the way in terms of partisan smear tactics and disrespect for the intellect of the electorate. Of course individual intelligent Americans are just as capable of disecting an argument and working out who is best as anyone else anywhere on the globe, but they are outnumbered en mass by "sheep" that need to be led or otherwise have no major interest apart from once every four years so need a simplified version of the argument to relate to, hence the carecaturisation of politicians which serves those who wish to make a snap decision, or vote for either the one whose side they are always on, or the one who has the best sound-bites. I should clarify this: that is not by any means a swipe at the intelligence of a country (if such a thing actually exists), more of a description of a political culture.

I heard (although I am not sure if it is true and would be grateful to anyone that could shed light) that this culture is massively swolen by the case that there is a budget limit on how much parties are allowed to advertise positively in favour of their own candidate, but no limit in how much they can advertise negatively - smear the opposition. Thus it becomes cheaper and easier to throw mud at one's opponent and hope that it sticks, rather than try and argue why people should vote for you and run the risk the electorate won't follow your argument.

An example of smear tactics from experience: on another site I once waded in to a political debate that had started as anti-Palin but was throwing up subjects like the war on terror as a battleground. (No pun intended). The individual that was arguing a different case to me made some arguments directly against what I had said, and of course I responded with a subject-specific response with a strong attack on some of his premises and deductions. His response, instead of a defence of his position or an attack on the validity of my arguments, began with: "Get off whatever you're on!" In America, the mud-slinging idea of suggesting that I had to be on drugs to have a different political outlook may well have worked, but on a global web page it back-fired upon my comeback. A stand-up comedian would make a good political candidate in America, I reckon.

But I don't want to stray from the subject: my main point from the above is that for various reasons in America, political characters are voted into office, not an actual rounded, multi-layered, complex human being. Politicians are merely actors playing a role, even if they don't realise it. No wonder then, that they are often found to be dishonest with the public, because their own beliefs are nowhere near as important as how they are perceived. They are playing a character so when placed in certain situations, the electorate demand that they come up with something smart to say that sounds good, rather than say what they actually think, however reasonable, in a boring manner.

I turn now to the political spectrum - left to right, as it were. The assumption is that the spectrum moves from Communism on the far left, through various degrees of Socialism, into Liberalism in the centre, onwards to Conservatism on the right ending with Nationalism and Fascism on the far right. Then various political topics get "pinned" somewhere on the spectrum. For example, being pro-war is pinned on the right, being pro welfare state pins you on the left, a lack of clear views places you in the centre. Liberalism is seen as being more compatible with the left than the right. As Sarobah has already very rightly pointed out, in a diagram form this is way too simplistic. Why can't you get a Conservative that believes in a welfare state? Surely it is possible to be a socialist but strongly oppose a "Come one, come all" immigration policy? I have always dodged the problem by calling myself a Liberal, or "Centreist", which allows me to pick the ideas I agree with from either side, which you are generally allowed to do. For example, I am a Christian (pins me on the right), but I disagree with a number of dogmas and believe in a welfare state (pins me on the left). I am vehemently anti-racist (or discrimination of any form), this usually is a "leftie" thing, yet I believe in a rigorous immigration policy (a right-wing thing). I am in favour of Scottish Independence (Lefty?), but strongly support Britain in defence of the Falkland Islands (Righty?). You get the idea. Sarobah can and has cited other examples from her own experience. Now in American eyes I would probably be a "flip-flop" that doesn't have strong views or take a position. In fact the opposite is true. I have clear beliefs and I decide what I believe without ever referring to the political spectrum, so I don't know where those beliefs fall on the spectrum until after I have taken the position. Contrast this with many politicians who will deliberately avoid taking a stance that they may in natural circumstances have come to believe in, just because it is on the other side. I will stand by my beliefs, but I reserve the right to change my mind on a given issue if I am persuaded by reasoned argument.

Re: Because I’m a leftie...

Postby Jason Toddman » Sat May 19, 2012 9:25 am

I agree with most of what you said; particularly in your last paragraph, though I think Liberalism and Centrist are somewhat different in modern slang. I'd say Liberalism as generally agreed upon these days is more to the left (not as far left as conservatives would paint it however). I consider myself a Moderate (or Centrist) sharing most of the beliefs you just stated.
Except perhaps for the strong stance against immigration, though I think immigration policies need revising. For example, why let in all these Somalians who [at least where I live] do nothing but get government handouts, don't learn English, and form their own tight cliques] and ban hard-working Hispanics who only want a decent standard of living and are generally lots friendlier and sociable? Sorry if that sounds racist , but I've met lots of Hispanics I've liked and not yet one Somalian who acted even remotely sociable despite a high Somalian population and a low Hispanic population where I live, and AFAIK no one I know has had any positive experience with the Somalians around here. So in that regard at least, I too agree about immigration policies. I also feel Hispanics have a greater right to be here because much of the Southwest was theirs until we virtually stole the land away from them on a pretext, and so immigration policies concerning Mexicans should be relaxed considerably. Drive away the drug smugglers but let the honest hard working majority come here and live. Somalians have no such claim, nor do they seem to make good citizens from my experience. Most don't even try to be.
The point here is that I too have views that could be seen as being to the far right in some cases. But all in all I feel I am a well balanced person who forms his own opinions, not following some party line to either left or the right.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...