## Pope Francis

Post by Antonius97 » Mon May 20, 2013 5:42 pm

He seems better. I don't think that large organized religion is usually a force for good in this world, but that's just me. So, as far as a pope can go in my book, he's pretty good.
I didn't choose the TUG life, the TUG life chose me.

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by staythirstymyfriends » Tue May 21, 2013 10:12 pm

Francis is as good a guy as there's been in a long time in the Vatican. Not that Benedict was poor of character, and certainly not (now Blessed) JP2. In terms of an iconoclast, though, you're looking at Bl. John XXIII as the last major mover-and-shaker reformer prior to now. His ideas on social outreach are especially pleasing: helping the poor and stepping back from parsing religious dogma. That's a good apostolate for the Church...
Is it any different to be tied up vs being tied down? One of the great things about English, its flexibility :p

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Thu May 23, 2013 6:07 pm

Apparently supports the crackdown on US nuns though, so I guess his humility has some limits.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by NemesisPrime » Thu May 23, 2013 6:23 pm

> Jason Toddman wrote:Apparently supports the crackdown on US nuns though, so I guess his humility has some limits.

Well no one's perfect but on the whole he's hit more good notes than bad so far.
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Chris12 » Fri May 24, 2013 1:20 am

If your predesessors reighn was marked by scandals and he looked like emperor Palpatine to boot then its pretty easy to look good. No disrespect to Benedict but his papacy took place in a time that did do him no favors as suddenly a lot of questional things came to light.
I always believed he stepped down because a new pope would mean a new start and apparently its working.

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Fri May 24, 2013 1:38 pm

Of course, being a Pope sin't what it used to be either. At one time he was the most powerful man in Europe... politically as well as religiously. Now... well, he's not just an ordinary shmuck like me either but the job is still not what it used to be.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by mikeybound » Sat May 25, 2013 9:57 am

I think just the fact that he's ethnic says something about the entire Catholic Church's character. They've come a long way from teaching that the Mark of Cain is dark skin.

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Sat May 25, 2013 8:30 pm

> mikeybound wrote:I think just the fact that he's ethnic says something about the entire Catholic Church's character. They've come a long way from teaching that the Mark of Cain is dark skin.

???
Am I missing something? What are you defining as ethnic? Are you under the impression that because he's from South America that Pope Francis is Hispanic or something? Although he was born in Brazil and lived in Argentina, he's not dark-skinned; BOTH his parents were Italian. He's full-blooded caucasian.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by mikeybound » Sat May 25, 2013 9:00 pm

Woops! Never mind me.

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by bind-me » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:33 pm

Right, just so people know before they think I'm being ignorant or anything I was raised Roman catholic, now I'm an atheist ( I have no problem with people having their own personal beliefs t, ) let me start of by saying the pope Sean paul the second should not be given a saint hood ( oh yeah this is a full blast on the Vatican ) any mother fucker that covers for another mother fucker thats a pedophile is no better than than the pedo mother fucker. If your acting as the big cheese gods right hand man on earth, the biggest moral authority and you spd billions of pounds that was said to be used for charity is then Used for simply moving pedo stories from the press and then have these pedophiles moved to another parish your a cunt, in plain English your a cunt. Secondly pope Benedict was a nazi he said he never carried a rifle then two weeks after a bunch of images of him carrying a rifle at Nazi ceremonies becomes viral he becomes the first pope in what 600 years to quit being pope, and then there the new pope that denies gay marriage and abortion but still covers up for pedos, ill tell right now he's just another cunt. If you don't want to marry someone from the same sex don't . But dont you dare scare people with thoughts of eternal hellir own belief my belief that papists are scum of the earth . You take one look atq vatileeks.com and you will see the true face of the catholic church

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:09 pm

> bind-me wrote:You take one look atq vatileeks.com and you will see the true face of the catholic church

Being a former Catholic turned agnostic myself, I can relate to this... to a point. I myself think the Catholic Church lost its relevance centuries ago and now is an anachronism at best.
However, the excessive use of bad language in your post weakens (or at least detracts from) your point rather than strengthens it.
Just saying.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Antonius97 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:49 pm

> Jason Toddman wrote:I myself think the Catholic Church lost its relevance centuries ago and now is an anachronism at best.

Now, do you mean relevance, or usefulness? Because they're hardly irrelevant. One billion plus followers tends to keep an organization going...
A better way to put it would be to say that they are no longer useful, but the Catholic church was never particularly useful in the first place.
I didn't choose the TUG life, the TUG life chose me.

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by bind-me » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:25 pm

Well to be honest mate that's language one employs when one is pissed at mother fuckers fucking boys
h and if you eant to hear bad language you should Hear me talk about this this my Irish father when me and his grt drunk out of skulls s

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:00 am

> Antonius wrote:

> > Jason Toddman wrote:I myself think the Catholic Church lost its relevance centuries ago and now is an anachronism at best.

> Now, do you mean relevance, or usefulness? Because they're hardly irrelevant. One billion plus followers tends to keep an organization going...
> A better way to put it would be to say that they are no longer useful, but the Catholic church was never particularly useful in the first place.

Both words might be true actually. A great many of those believers don't actually firmly believe what the Catholic Church teaches; its proscriptions against abortion and contraception for example. They attend mass rarely if at all, don' believe the Pope is Christ's vicar on Earth, and indeed live their lives pretty much the same as non-Catholics do. To me, that makes the Church irrelevant.
I disagree that the Church was not always useful. For many centuries it was actually the cultural center of Europe, and also helped preserve classical literature there as well (though not as well as the Islamic nations did for a time). It gave hope of a better life (whether real or not is immaterial) to many millions of people who lived in abject poverty and were little better than slaves;helping them to maintain the will to go on. Unfortunately, it also got too involved in politics and literally ran Europe into the ground for centuries as well; hence the Protestant movement. Ever since Martin Luther developed a church more in tune with the times (something that happens every now and then, giving us the various denominations and splinter groups [like the LDS] we have today) the Catholic Church has been increasingly out of step with modern societal needs (preaching against contraception in a world with an exploding population control problem is, imo, utterly insane) and that's what I mean by irrelevant.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:04 am

> bind-me wrote:Well to be honest mate that's language one employs when one is pissed at mother fuckers fucking boys
> h and if you eant to hear bad language you should Hear me talk about this this my Irish father when me and his grt drunk out of skulls s

Bad language is bad language and it's highly inappropriate, regardless of the reason involved or how righteous you think you are.
So let me put it to you this way; your language is pretty close to violating the rules about the use of hate speech. So keep it up and I'll edit your posts to delete the expletives - or even delete the posts altogether if I get complaints about them.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Antonius97 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:19 am

> Jason Toddman wrote:

> > Antonius wrote:

> > > Jason Toddman wrote:I myself think the Catholic Church lost its relevance centuries ago and now is an anachronism at best.

> > Now, do you mean relevance, or usefulness? Because they're hardly irrelevant. One billion plus followers tends to keep an organization going...
> > A better way to put it would be to say that they are no longer useful, but the Catholic church was never particularly useful in the first place.

> Both words might be true actually. A great many of those believers don't actually firmly believe what the Catholic Church teaches; its proscriptions against abortion and contraception for example. They attend mass rarely if at all, don' believe the Pope is Christ's vicar on Earth, and indeed live their lives pretty much the same as non-Catholics do. To me, that makes the Church irrelevant.
> I disagree that the Church was not always useful. For many centuries it was actually the cultural center of Europe, and also helped preserve classical literature there as well (though not as well as the Islamic nations did for a time). It gave hope of a better life (whether real or not is immaterial) to many millions of people who lived in abject poverty and were little better than slaves;helping them to maintain the will to go on. Unfortunately, it also got too involved in politics and literally ran Europe into the ground for centuries as well; hence the Protestant movement. Ever since Martin Luther developed a church more in tune with the times (something that happens every now and then, giving us the various denominations and splinter groups [like the LDS] we have today) the Catholic Church has been increasingly out of step with modern societal needs (preaching against contraception in a world with an exploding population control problem is, imo, utterly insane) and that's what I mean by irrelevant.

I see what you mean about being useful from a cultural standpoint. However, I'd argue that any good they did there would be negated during the years of scientific repression at the hands of the Inquisition. For every hundred people they may have filled with hope, they would find one person trying to better explain the world we live in and burn them. Alive.
I didn't choose the TUG life, the TUG life chose me.

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by mikeybound » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:25 am

But on the other hand, religion is really only an excuse. It came down to the people to commit these horrible acts, rather than finding a balance between faith and science.

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Fan_Of_Blindfolds » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:44 am

> However, I'd argue that any good they did there would be negated during the years of scientific repression at the hands of the Inquisition. For every hundred people they may have filled with hope, they would find one person trying to better explain the world we live in and burn them. Alive.

Can we get some actual hard data here?

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:51 am

> Antonius wrote:I see what you mean about being useful from a cultural standpoint. However, I'd argue that any good they did there would be negated during the years of scientific repression at the hands of the Inquisition. For every hundred people they may have filled with hope, they would find one person trying to better explain the world we live in and burn them. Alive.

Well, I certainly won't argue with that. In fact, I once got flak from a troll here (at a different thread) for expressing admiration for Galileo in standing up to the Church authorities of the time about scientific doctrine; caving in (outwardly at least) only when threatened with torture. My; the flak I took from someone who seemed to think that I (myself a former Catholic I might add) was dissing the Catholic church! Cor, I should have referred them to you and bind-me.
Anyway, though the church is not like that now, it's precisely that kind of history that made me decide to no longer be a part of it. However, it provided my mother (and her peer-aged friends) with some kind of spiritual comfort, so it's difficult for me to condemn it entirely. I'd feel like I was disrespecting them were I to do that. I have no problems with people who stay with the Catholic faith (though I may question their objectivity in the process in light of my own experiences), and have even known a few Catholic priests (my mother worked for one as a housekeeper for some years), but it's the higher-ups who make all the decisions that keep the church in the Dark Ages that I have little respect for.They act like they think they're nobility or something.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:54 am

> Fan_Of_Blindfolds wrote:

> > However, I'd argue that any good they did there would be negated during the years of scientific repression at the hands of the Inquisition. For every hundred people they may have filled with hope, they would find one person trying to better explain the world we live in and burn them. Alive.

> Can we get some actual hard data here?

Hard data? The history books are FULL of hard data! Google Galileo's experiences with the Catholic Church. Google Giovanni Bruno, who was burned at the stake in 1600 for, among other things, claiming that planets were other worlds, stars were other suns, and that some planets had life on them. Google the freaking Spanish Inquisition. It's all there.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by bind-me » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:12 am

It's not that I'm against Christianity I just I just can not tolerate peoples human rights being violated because of peoples own personal beliefs. And that goes for a lot of religions, scary fact 93% of people who have been killed in the middle east have been killed by Muslims for bot being the right type of Muslim. Wish some one told that to the idiots who butchered lee Rigby

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:41 am

> bind-me wrote:It's not that I'm against Christianity I just I just can not tolerate peoples human rights being violated because of peoples own personal beliefs. And that goes for a lot of religions, scary fact 93% of people who have been killed in the middle east have been killed by Muslims for bot being the right type of Muslim. Wish some one told that to the idiots who butchered lee Rigby

In that at least you and I are in perfect accord. I find it especially repugnant when religious people violate other peoples' rights in the name of protecting their own group's 'rights' and privileges. The Muslims have been especially bad about this; they're worse now than the Christians were even in the Dark Ages (a time when, ironically, nations under Islam were by far a more enlightened culture than Christiandom). They don't seem to be at all in accord with the rest of the world - let alone Europe and the US.
And see? You managed that quite nicely without all the 'four-letter' words.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by bind-me » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:44 am

Well to be honest mate Islam is what Christianity was just a few centuries ago but they've just got more violent toys

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:30 am

> bind-me wrote:Well to be honest mate Islam is what Christianity was just a few centuries ago but they've just got more violent toys

Yes; quite true. That and the means to spread their violence all over the map.
While I have no beef with people who believe in one religion or another but are civilized enough to mind their own business and not impiose their beliefs on others, this kind of religious zealotry needs to be put down or even outlawed. Of course, enforcing such a law is another matter.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by bind-me » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:06 am

It's a hard one I think some people just need to wise up but unfortunately education is banned undone of these countries

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Antonius97 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:46 pm

My way of thinking about it is that faith can be good on an individual basis. One person can better their life (within reason) by adhering to a particular religion (within reason). Unfortunately, it can (admittedly, more rarely) also cause them to become bloodthirsty, bigoted, and/or completely ignorant of the world they live in. Even worse, when a religion gets as big as, say, the Catholic church, you get Crusades and the Inquisition. The way I always explain it is "Hate the sin, not the sinner." If you have 20 minutes, and care to listen to a man that has pretty much the EXACT same thoughts on the issue as me, take a look at this http://youtu.be/6L1xvdZMC10.
I didn't choose the TUG life, the TUG life chose me.

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by bind-me » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:30 am

It doesn't really rely on how bug the religion is look at the west burrow Baptist church that's one family and they are probably the most evil form of religion in then compterary world. They pictet funerals for soldiers saying it was gods will that they died and they deserved because the amercain army started to allow gay people into the army. They tried to picket the funerals for the the children who were murdered in the school massacre a couple of months back and then the helps angels showed and formed a wall of men and Harleys keeping them away from the families.

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by bind-me » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:32 am

And also " hate the sin not the sinner"? So what hate terrorism not binladen that's a bit messed up man

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by Jason Toddman » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:14 am

Though I more or less agree with you, Bind-me, you're getting somewhat off-topic here now. This thread is about Pope Francis; NOT about the Westboro Baptist Church or Al Quida.
If you want to start a thread of your own bashing religion in general however, then please feel free to do so.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Pope Francis

Post by bind-me » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:17 am

At least I didn't swear over the last few posts