## You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:47 pm

I want to get something straight with some of you men on this site. Not every woman is a helpless damsel in distress. I'm certainly not. Also, women are not sex objects and they're sexy bodies should not be the only thing emphasized. And I don't see how women are beautiful bound and gagged and struggling. It's not cool. And trying to meet a woman you've never even met in real life so you can tie her up is not cool. It's a disaster waiting to happen.
Some of you have told me that you could overpower me or make it sound like I'd have to be conniving and trick you to get the upperhand. Let's not assume that I would be overpowered just because I'm a woman and you're a man. It's ridiculous and you'll never know me in real life, so you can't assume. I for one am not putting up with being messed with by misogynistic pigs.
The fact that I'm on this cite and I'm slightly (only slightly) intrigued by the idea of being the submissive one is repulsive to me. If I ever allow anyone to rp with me where I'm the one tied up, you have to play by my my rules. Even if I'm the dominant one, you also have to play by my rules. If you don't like it, don't try to convince me otherwise. Just leave me alone after that.
I'm a strong and opinionated woman and I am a feminist. I don't hate men and I'm all for men's rights activism (mainly because those views center around the stereotype that men are always the perpetrators and women are always the victims, which some of you I'm sure believe and which is totally not the case). Contrary to popular belief, a lot of women are strong that a lot of men. If you don't believe it, I hope a woman proves you wrong (not in a sadistic way of course, maybe just by out-muscling you in a weight lifting contest). I'd also say that maybe you should be open to new possibilites and explore the reasons why women want to be the dominant ones a lot of the time and explore the benefits of being the submissive one for a change. I'm not saying I hate men in any way, but some of the men on this site are a bit misogynistic (or a lot) and I wish that would change.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:00 pm

Haha. Just because I'm doing a roleplay with you where things are a little different doesn't mean I don't have these feelings. I'm just a little in a kinky mood and I'm living out some errotic fantasies that I'd never want to happen in real life.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Zandor » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:00 pm

Lol when will you stop ranting?
You are q immortal

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:02 pm

Haha.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by The Black Falcon » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:20 pm

Allow me to step in here and say/explain a few things:
First off, Sacrificiallove, I really respect you. I deeply respect how opinionated you are and how you know your values and will stick with them. Plus, you seem like a good person all-around.
That being said, I'd like to explain a few things, if you don't mind.
I am a man, straight, and a dom. I love seeing women tied up, and I enjoy how helpless they appear.
And sometimes I sicken myself by having those feelings.
I'm not chauvinistic (or at least I hope I don't come off that way). I believe that women have all the rights a man should have and that, yes, they can be stronger and dominant. But when it comes down to it, my desire to see helpless, beautiful women bound and gagged and struggling is purely sexual. It's not because of any ideas or statements about control and the exchange of power, and asserting dominance. I do it simply because I am sexually attracted to the image of a bound and gagged girl. There's really nothing I can do about it. And outside of the bedroom I will be as courteous, kind, and respectful of women as possible.
I'm less adamant about not meeting people from online in real life because it's happened before. I was lucky as hell and I got to know this girl for a good year over skype and facebook before meeting her, though, so I know my limits. I'm not going to just meet anybody from here without at least really getting to know them over phone calls, facebook, face to face contact and what not.
In conclusion, I respect women and your opinions, but I can do nothing about my preferences, as prehistoric and chauvinistic as they may seem.
College student by day. Crime-fighting vigilante by night.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:24 pm

Thanks for replying and being respectful and honest about it. Sometimes I have fantasies I'm not okay either. We all do. We can't control our sexual attractions; it just seems like occasionally it goes too far. Maybe not in your case, but in a lot of cases.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by The Black Falcon » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:29 pm

Many people like bondage for entirely different reasons. The "damsel in distress" trope has existed literally since the creation of the first stories. It's a hard one to shake, but with characters like Daphne and Princess Peach, as well as sick fucks like me getting a kick out of it, I don't think it's going to go away for a long time.
College student by day. Crime-fighting vigilante by night.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Fesselfan » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:27 pm

Maybe you are taking this site too seriously. IMHO most people here talk about their fantasies, not about reality. And yes, when you are into tying someone up its tempting to think to overpower the person.
Being the submissive is not your kind of game? Fine, mine neither. But whats the problem? If someone asks me to act that way, I say "no" and be done with it.
Btw, a side note on overpowering in reality. Its risky and can easily hurt someone. For example, my wife and me. I am a head taller than her and much sturdier built. I have some experience in fighting, she not.
Of course, if I wanted I could overpower her. BUT- I could not without the risk of harming her if she would really honestly defend herself. And I dont want to hurt her
So, when we do something like "unwilling victim" yes she defends...but more acted, show than really try to get free.
Cheers
FF
There are 10 kind of people in the world.
Those who understand binary numeral system, and those who don't.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:47 am

It's more the assumption that in a kidnap scenario that some of the guys come up with, they think they can overpower a woman even though they don't know her and they don't know how strong she is. And I think it's solely because she's a woman.
As you said, in a real kidnapping scenario, someone would get hurt. I'm not exactly all that tall (5'5"), but I've been going to karate on and off for a few years and have gotten a lot better at it. I have a punching bag at him. I scuffle with people some times. My dad and I like to punch each other on the arm. After three shots, he doesn't want to do it anymore. He does three shots back then, and I'm usually done to. We could both take more if need be, but it's not necessary to do it when it stings a bit. However, I gave him a bruise one time. He never gave me one.
I can also take a lot of pain. I ran into a wall one time. It hurt but I was like whatever. After a few seconds, I realized I was bleeding. That really surprised me. Another time I tried to do a flip off a diving board. I didn't do it right and banged my head.
Another time I was boxing with a friend of mine. Admittedly, he was skinny, but I pretty much beat him. I was still afraid to hurt him though, so I let him get a lot of shots to the arm. I swear he was hitting me as hard as he could, and it gave me bruises. I didn't really care. I was hitting him in the chest (though that was a bit unfair I guess, since it would have been inappropriate to hit me there), and I wasn't hitting him as hard as I could, yet he kept wincing. One time my friend and I were wrestling. He got the jump on me, so I was unprepared. We wrestled for quite a few mintues. He weighs in the 190s and I was in the 160s at the time, so he had the advantage. In the end he won, but that's because I was just trying to wrestle my way out. In a real fight, if someone got the jump on me, I would use every defense necessary, and I know quite a few defenses. Another friend and I were scuffling, and I was way too fast for him. Finally I told him to hit me back. It didn't hurt at all. Then the friend I was wrestling with hit me, and that didn't hurt at all either. I actually have a tendency to laugh hysterically sometimes when I get hurt.
I need to go back to lifting weights, and no I'm not that strong, but my legs are fairly strong and my arms could be a lot weaker.
I feel that with a few good well aimed punches to the stomach and nose, they would go down. Those stops are weak, and if anyone tries to tell me I'm wrong, well, I beg to differ. Especially if the person is unprepared, it can be a bad scene for them. And there's no way to tighten up the muscles in the nose, since there are none.
Now, I can't no for sure that I would win, but if someone overpowered me, it would be after a long and nasty brawl. We'd probably both be hurt and bleeding. In the end, they might just give up. I would hope they would. If not, well, then I'd try to escape later. I just hate it when men get cocky about their physical abilities and think they can overpower all women everyone (this is what it seems like they do).

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Fesselfan » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:08 am

You seem to be pretty obsessed with this topic, which, basically, is just another form of "let's pretend" and "my <xyz> is better than yours".
Maybe you could beat off an offender, maybe not. Is that really important for fiction?
Cheers
FF
There are 10 kind of people in the world.
Those who understand binary numeral system, and those who don't.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:19 am

No, I suppose not.
I guess it's more my feminist nature and the fact that I think a lot of guys are sexist. I will admit I am quite obsessed with this topic. My friends and family would atest to that.
Whatever the case, I don't think women are the weaker sex, and I hate to have assumptions made about just because I'm a woman.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by FelixSH » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:29 am

I´m sure most people here know that women are not easily overpowered. Read some M/M stories, there the guys are similarly easy overpowered as women in M/F stories. The struggling itself isn´t particularly explicit described because it isn´t the point of most stories.
My point is that the easy overpowering isn´t written that way because women are seen as weak. It´s because doms want to seem strong, no matter if they tie up a man or a woman.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:18 am

I suppose the same goes for dominant women...then again, it all depends on the depiction, but there are some dominant women portrayed as stronger than their captive male.
I suppose another thing that bothers me though is the focus of how sexy the women are and some of the suggestive things the guys do to their captive, like touching their breasts or what not. And sometimes there don't seem to be any other personality traits they have other than being a helpless victim and also sexy.
There's also the fact that in so many stories, the bondage is pretty much the only thing focused on. I mean, yes, this is a fantasy bondage site, but a good story has a complex plot and good characterization. So many stories are about just tying people up without much character developement. This is an important aspect of a story for me. It is something I focus on in my own stories.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by sarobah » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:48 pm

Just a few disjointed thoughts...
First, being physically weak or strong is not a reliable indication of character. I am physically unimposing (translation – short and skinny) and I know I would not be able to hold my own against the average male. Nevertheless I consider myself an assertive and self-confident woman.
On the other hand, we humans are funny creatures. We operate on different levels. In the public aspects of my life, I am a strong feminist. In my private relationships, I am happy to confess that I am submissive. These are two distinct facets of my personality and one does not compromise the other.
Second, and following on, in general we are the weaker sex. This becomes an issue when it is distorted into stereotypes (e.g. weak equals helpless) and pigeonholing. Take for instance the debate over women in military combat roles. Yes, men are in general more physically qualified, but there are many females more capable than many males.
To steal a line from a movie – “There are many men worse than me, and a few better.” It’s what we are as individuals that counts.
Third, sexism and chauvinism are (I believe) the biggest single problem facing modern society. However, in a forum like this, which is essentially about fantasies and fetishes, it’s easy for gender issues to become intertwined with the broader themes of domination and submission. I don’t see that as necessarily a bad thing.
The true-life stories obviously involve consensual bondage (otherwise there would be a problem!). While the fictional stories provide more scope for non-consensual bondage (kidnapping, etc.), isn’t that what fiction is all about? Good fiction (in my humble opinion) does not deal with the mundane; it explores the boundaries of human experience and it challenges our perceptions and presumptions. If this takes us into dark territory, that’s the price of imagination.
Fourth, it is true that women are much more likely to be the “victims” in non-consensual bondage scenarios. Is there a male equivalent of the archetypal “damsel in distress”? I don’t really know why this is, apart from the stereotyping and pigeonholing issues I’ve mentioned.
However, whether this is a result of nature or nurture, studies do show that when it comes to sexual fantasies, men are more likely to see themselves in the dominant role and women in the submissive role. (I recall it’s about 70% in each case.) Again, is there a male equivalent of The Story of O and Fifty Shades of Grey – novels dealing with female submission that are mostly read by women and indeed are very popular.
Of course, one of the nice things about this forum is the extent to which the trope is overturned, with males as often as not in the “submissive” role.
~ Sarah
Last edited by sarobah on Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the soul within.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:45 pm

It's interesting that your name is Sarah. Mine is too, but without the h.
Anyway, it's cool that you're a feminist. If you want to be a submissive in bed with your husband, I'm not saying you can't be a feminist at the same time.
There are dudes in distress. That is what they are usually called. This happens fairly often in today's times, but it was damsel in distress all the time in the old days, and still happens more often the the males being in distress in today's time. However, I don't think they hardly make movies anymore where a woman is completely incompetent and unable to take care of herself, which is a good thing. Even in Twilight, all the women except Bella are fairly competent, for the most part. And then in the fourth book, after Bella's transformation, she's a lot more of a heroine than before. And she does save Edward in the second book.
On this site, the kidnapping scenarios, for the most part, have men overpower the women instead of the other way around. Women hardly ever kidanp men unless they're a lot holder and they tricked him somehow. And they're always sexy it would seem. A lot of emphasis is put on the appearance of the women. Their curves, breasts, and fleshy skin are always mentioned. If a woman is fairly strong, she is only said to be athletic or toned. And even so, she usually seems to be overpowered by a man. And in some cases, the woman is sexually molested while tied up. The writer's make it sound like it's okay since the women enjoyed it, but they never gave consent, so in reality, it's still not okay. And it's certainly not okay to leave someone tied up like that all night long and to touch her in inappropriate spots when she obviously doesn't like what's going on. If I ever mention this, I get flamed, because it's all a fantasy. Well, even in a fantasy, to make it sound like that's okay is completely ridiculous.
I like how you mentioned stereotypes and women in combat roles. It seems as if people think that because women are in general weaker, there is absolutely no woman who is capable of being in a combat role. Obviously that isn't true. If a woman isn't capable of it, then don't put her in that role. But don't discriminate against the women who are. There are tons of women out there who could do it. I once heard the argument that men might mess up a mission if a woman got in trouble and try to be the hero and the guy was trying to it wasn't that he didn't think women were capable. That is still just as bad. Unfortunately, if I got in the army, I'd probably be stupid and try to play the heroine. I think we would all have that tendency, and I don't think a guy would have anymore incentive to save a woman than he would a man in most cases. Same goes for women and other women or other men. Hopefully, they'll all just be smart and follow orders instead, or somehow they won't have to defy the mission to save the person in trouble.
Women are definitely seen as always being the victim, to the point where in real-life, male victims are often ignored, which is not right at all. Some men get abused and raped...even by women! And as far as books portraying women as the submissive, it's weird, because the website TV tropes says there's a trope that women are always dominant, men are always submissive, because they don't think the strength of women seriously, therefore the dominantion thing is okay. Well, I always try to make my female characters as scary as possible, but whatever the case, I don't even know how the heck that trope is seen as true. I'm all the time on here seeing people saying they're getting off on some pretty girl, especially when she's tied up and gagged. If a girl posts in the how would section, she gets a ton of responses. A picture will give her even more (as long as she's pretty). Guys don't seem to get as many responses, and they usually don't post picture.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, women seem to be defined by their typical womanly parts on this site. Men are often defined by their abs and their sexual intoxication of overpowering and tying up women. Women's muscles are usually never mentioned. And they're usually fairly short. Sometimes they even get overpowered by very young boys. Yet some act like they're okay with it.
What's even worse sometimes is that some people don't even want to see them get away and get rescued. They want them to be helpless forever. And if they do get away and get revenge, then they say the men should get revenge right back, as if the women had no right to get revenge in the first place. And women seem to often get humiliated and degraded by men. And sometimes they're portrayed as liking it. It's ridiculous in all honesty.
Bedroom bondage is fine, and horsing around is fine, but when consent is not involved and the fantasies start getting so sick and twisted and yet people want those fantasies to get even sicker, it gets really freaking misogynistic and isn't right.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Kyle » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:03 pm

Speaking as a man who can go either way on the dominant-submissive scale depending on the situation, I'm just not sure why this is such a big deal. I understand the social implications and stereotypes involved being annoying. But you can't really get on people for liking those sorts of things. As long as no one's really getting hurt I just don't see the problem, unless someone is saying "this is the way things should be and everyone who disagrees is wrong."
I'm still not sure what's the difference between wanting women to overpower and tie up men while men wanting to overpower and tie up women is wrong. That sounds an awful lot like judging based off preconceived notions of gender role to me.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by sarobah » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:51 pm

> Sacrificiallove wrote:However, I don't think they hardly make movies anymore where a woman is completely incompetent and unable to take care of herself, which is a good thing. Even in Twilight, all the women except Bella are fairly competent, for the most part. And then in the fourth book, after Bella's transformation, she's a lot more of a heroine than before.

I am a HUGE fan of Buffy The Vampire Slayer.... ʼnuff said :o)

> On this site, the kidnapping scenarios, for the most part, have men overpower the women instead of the other way around. Women hardly ever kidnap men unless they're a lot holder and they tricked him somehow. And they're always sexy it would seem... What's even worse sometimes is that some people don't even want to see them get away...

I don’t like non-consensual scenarios of any kind, including kidnap stories and force fantasies (whether written, on TV or in movies).* The exception is where the heroine ultimately triumphs.
Back in the ʼseventies – the golden age of trashy movies – the revenge story was extremely popular (e.g. I Spit On Your Grave). A startling difference between now and then is what often comes up in the responses. Back then, the audience cheered when the victim took bloody revenge on her tormenters. Nowadays (and I may be overgeneralizing) there is a tendency for audiences and reviewers to see the male villains as the victims when the heroine gets her revenge. That bothers me.
* I had a personal experience – just a scare, fortunately – a couple of years ago which makes this dislike personal for me.
I admit that I don’t read many of this type of story in the TUGs forum, but in movies in recent years – i.e. the last two decades – there has been a disturbing trend for the “dark” ending, in which good does not triumph over evil. It worries me that, in the name of being “edgy”, this type of movie is pandering to male force fantasies of the worst kind.
So I agree your concerns are valid. It’s one thing for people to say “It’s just a story” but even the TUGs forum has limits. But NO, I am not criticizing any of the stories or writers here. As I said in my previous post, fiction shouldn’t necessarily be confined to our comfort zone.*
* Penny: “Okay, that’s fine, but let’s try and get you out of your comfort zone.”
Sheldon: “Why would we want to do that? It’s called the comfort zone for a reason!”

> Also, as I mentioned earlier, women seem to be defined by their typical womanly parts on this site... Women’s muscles are usually never mentioned... Yet some act like they’re okay with it.

It does annoy me how women are too often infantilized and sexualized at the same time.
In both my stories and my real-life “games”, I am the “damsel in distress” – but it’s my own choice. (I hesitate to use the word “empowerment” because it’s been so overused.)

> And sometimes they're portrayed as liking it. It's ridiculous in all honesty.

The classic example here is the John Norman Gor series.
And in reply to Kyle, yes I do think it should work both ways.
In popular culture – and I’m assuming in the stories here, from Sara’s description – it is still mainly a one-way street. But violence is no less violence depending on the sex or gender of the perpetrator.
Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the soul within.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Zandor » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:05 pm

I like the old sacrificiallove better then the one i rped with.
You are q immortal

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:22 pm

> Kyle wrote:Speaking as a man who can go either way on the dominant-submissive scale depending on the situation, I'm just not sure why this is such a big deal. I understand the social implications and stereotypes involved being annoying. But you can't really get on people for liking those sorts of things. As long as no one's really getting hurt I just don't see the problem, unless someone is saying "this is the way things should be and everyone who disagrees is wrong."
> I'm still not sure what's the difference between wanting women to overpower and tie up men while men wanting to overpower and tie up women is wrong. That sounds an awful lot like judging based off preconceived notions of gender role to me.

The other Sarah had a good response to this.
I think maybe if I explain this broadly, you'll understand my dislike for it. Whenever I portray someone being overpowered without their consent (I will admit, the person is usually a man, but sometimes the implications of that are also because I'm trying not to be sexist against men...but more on that later) as a completely degrading, scary, and humiliating experience. On other sites I write about people being raped (one was of a woman being raped, but that is in a still in-progress novel). I never entertain the idea that women or men would enjoy being tied up, raped, and/or touched inappropriately would be okay. That is a fantasy that when made to look okay makes me wonder if some people really think it is okay if they're doing it to someone they know for fun. A lot of people are not okay with it. So it's never depicted as fun, and sometimes the trauma of it has the implication that men can be victimized, sometimes even by women, and that they should not be ignored in those cases.
I also always have a good ending. The captured character or characters (usually a dude in distress) is/are always saved by the heroine. The guys in my stories aren't always useless. Sometimes they even return the favor
The main reason for the gender reversal would be that for years, women were always helpless damsels. I am trying to be part of that change.
The depiction of women as sex objects and being weak and helpless and easily overpowered by a man make me wonder if men on here only care about the body and like having a sexy woman to play with. Maybe in real life they'd do it with consent....but why write a story about a fantasy that is really and truly wrong? Isn't there something wrong with fantasizing about it then? And to go as far as to right about it in a story and make it sound like it's fine (because some people depict it as such) doesn't seem okay to me.
When men are victimized, I hope for a happy ending for him. I would hope the heroine would save him, but escaping or being let go is better than him being kept like that forever. The same goes for a woman, although escape and kicking the crap out of the attackers would be my thing, and letting her go would be the next....but even having someone come save her, even if it's a man, is better than seeing her be a captive forever.
It's also a bit disconcerting to me that a lot about this site is writing stories. Some of us are trying to work on our writing skills and be better at creating fiction. Writing an all out fantasy that mainly just describes the bondage and the hotness of the one being tied or the one tying is not much of a story at all. They would not make for a good film except to masterbate to pretty much.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:24 pm

> Dann432432 wrote:I like the old sacrificiallove better then the one i rped with.

Don't worry, I'm back. I went through I wacko few days there. I know....heroines are always better than helpless damsels. I am glad you missed the old me and my heroines lol. We will make the rp work better now.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Zandor » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:24 pm

Boh?
You are q immortal

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by The Black Falcon » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:29 pm

You're talking like all guys with this fetish are just waiting for an excuse to go crazy on their instincts and kidnap and kill and enslave. And as much as I respect your opinions, I think it's getting a little out of hand.
People on this site oftentimes write fictional stories to act out their personal preferences. They (hell, let's make it we) know that there's no way in hell we could act on our desires. And why would we want to? I have a particular fetish for tying girls up that I have no control over. I don't go to the movies to find excuses to make my desires reality. No matter what kind of ending any movie has or what kind of sick image the media is creating, I'm not going to risk life and limb just to actually kidnap somebody. I like to see girls tied up, and I can't help it. So I always make sure that if bondage occurs, it is consensual.
Now, I can't speak for some outliers that may or not actually be crazy enough to go through with these desires. But for the most part, this is what the fictional section is for. To keep it fictional.
SacrificialLove, you like scenarios in which a stronger woman overpowers a weaker boy and ties them up. Or when a woman turns the tables on her captor. That's not my cup of tea, but I respect it. I like scenarios in which a man ties up a damsel in distress and lets them struggle until she is ultimately saved. That's obviously not your cup of tea.
There is an incredible range of tastes on this site. Perhaps we should just agree not to judge each other's eclectic preferences that most of us have zero control over.
College student by day. Crime-fighting vigilante by night.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:40 pm

> sarobah wrote:

> > Sacrificiallove wrote:However, I don't think they hardly make movies anymore where a woman is completely incompetent and unable to take care of herself, which is a good thing. Even in Twilight, all the women except Bella are fairly competent, for the most part. And then in the fourth book, after Bella's transformation, she's a lot more of a heroine than before.

> I am a HUGE fan of Buffy The Vampire Slayer.... ʼnuff said )

> > On this site, the kidnapping scenarios, for the most part, have men overpower the women instead of the other way around. Women hardly ever kidnap men unless they're a lot holder and they tricked him somehow. And they're always sexy it would seem... What's even worse sometimes is that some people don't even want to see them get away...

> I don’t like non-consensual scenarios of any kind, including kidnap stories and force fantasies (whether written, on TV or in movies).* The exception is where the heroine ultimately triumphs.
> Back in the ʼseventies – the golden age of trashy movies – the revenge story was extremely popular (e.g. I Spit On Your Grave). A startling difference between now and then is what often comes up in the responses. Back then, the audience cheered when the victim took bloody revenge on her tormenters. Nowadays (and I may be overgeneralizing) there is a tendency for audiences and reviewers to see the male villains as the victims when the heroine gets her revenge. That bothers me.
> * I had a personal experience – just a scare, fortunately – a couple of years ago which makes this dislike personal for me.
> I admit that I don’t read many of this type of story in the TUGs forum, but in movies in recent years – i.e. the last two decades – there has been a disturbing trend for the “dark” ending, in which good does not triumph over evil. It worries me that, in the name of being “edgy”, this type of movie is pandering to male force fantasies of the worst kind.
> So I agree your concerns are valid. It’s one thing for people to say “It’s just a story” but even the TUGs forum has limits. But NO, I am not criticizing any of the stories or writers here. As I said in my previous post, fiction shouldn’t necessarily be confined to our comfort zone.*
> * Penny: “Okay, that’s fine, but let’s try and get you out of your comfort zone.”
> Sheldon: “Why would we want to do that? It’s called the comfort zone for a reason!”

> > Also, as I mentioned earlier, women seem to be defined by their typical womanly parts on this site... Women’s muscles are usually never mentioned... Yet some act like they’re okay with it.

> It does annoy me how women are too often infantilized and sexualized at the same time.
> In both my stories and my real-life “games”, I am the “damsel in distress” – but it’s my own choice. (I hesitate to use the word “empowerment” because it’s been so overused.)

> > And sometimes they're portrayed as liking it. It's ridiculous in all honesty.

> The classic example here is the John Norman Gor series.
> And in reply to Kyle, yes I do think it should work both ways.
> In popular culture – and I’m assuming in the stories here, from Sara’s description – it is still mainly a one-way street. But violence is no less violence depending on the sex or gender of the perpetrator.

I bad at this quote stuff, so I'll just try to go through the main points. I think we agree very much. It's great to get another feminist perspective on here, and it sucks that a lot of men get on my case for complaining about all this. It's also cool to see such a feminist who is a submissive in bed. It makes me feel a little better that sometimes I entertain the idea of being submissive, though I'm mostly dominant.
Anyway, my friend keeps telling me I need to watch Buffy. I probably will when I get time and am not so consumed in the social networking/blogging/forum worlds. I do think I would like it, and I'm sure it's way better than Twilight. I've also heard it's got plenty of dude in distress action, including tie ups.
I've seen the remake of I Spit on Your Grave. I can see both sides of the case. Some say revenge is wrong. I would probably exact some kind of revenge, but I would not go as far as to cut off a guy's penis. That might have been a bit much. And I hated how it left out the fate of the sheriff's daughter.
I am all for getting revenge in Lisbeth Salander fashion. She's not even so much bent on revenge, moreso just getting her rights as a human being. Pretty much everything Lisbeth did to Bjurman was necessary to stop the rapes and get her rights back. Maybe she didn't have to become a rapist herself and shove the anal plug in him......but that might have been a little bit necessary to for him to take her seriously. Lisbeth is one of my favorite heroines. It also rocks that she saves the dude in distress at one point.
I agree with the last part. It would be okay if the roles were equal more. Some write women being strong. Others write the men being strong. It would maybe be nice if they're both strong. And I certainly think there is a different dynamic between the f/m stories and m/f stories. It almost always seems that in both cases, the women are sexualized, and in the case of m/f, they are always weaker than the male and easily overpowered, and in the f/m stories, they usually trick the guy or he's a lot younger than her. Also, sometimes I get annoyed at seeing males be kidnapped and the story going on and on with more and more different versions of bondage and torture with seemingly no end in sight and with no hope of anyone coming into save him. The same goes for the women, though for some reason, they either wind up liking it in the end, or they get saved. Then again, sometimes the men wind up liking it to, but they don't ever seem to be saved. If they do get away, it's either because they were let go or they escaped. And the idea that someone would like having this done without their consent, even in game fashion and even if they're turned on by it, seems wrong. It especially seems wrong to think someone would be okay with being touched inappropriately by a dude who is not their boyfriend, or put in provactive positions with another person. Sometimes I wish guys would keep their boners in check. I mean, heck, even women need to stop focusing on getting an orgasm. We could be realistic here. And after a while, some of these things aren't even much of a story anymore. It's just an errotic fantasy that starts giving me pain to read, despite maybe a bit of sexual arrousal. I think the pain and immorality of it always wins me over in the end, and I fight the arrousal every step of the way.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:49 pm

> The Black Falcon wrote:You're talking like all guys with this fetish are just waiting for an excuse to go crazy on their instincts and kidnap and kill and enslave. And as much as I respect your opinions, I think it's getting a little out of hand.
> People on this site oftentimes write fictional stories to act out their personal preferences. They (hell, let's make it we) know that there's no way in hell we could act on our desires. And why would we want to? I have a particular fetish for tying girls up that I have no control over. I don't go to the movies to find excuses to make my desires reality. No matter what kind of ending any movie has or what kind of sick image the media is creating, I'm not going to risk life and limb just to actually kidnap somebody. I like to see girls tied up, and I can't help it. So I always make sure that if bondage occurs, it is consensual.
> Now, I can't speak for some outliers that may or not actually be crazy enough to go through with these desires. But for the most part, this is what the fictional section is for. To keep it fictional.
> SacrificialLove, you like scenarios in which a stronger woman overpowers a weaker boy and ties them up. Or when a woman turns the tables on her captor. That's not my cup of tea, but I respect it. I like scenarios in which a man ties up a damsel in distress and lets them struggle until she is ultimately saved. That's obviously not your cup of tea.
> There is an incredible range of tastes on this site. Perhaps we should just agree not to judge each other's eclectic preferences that most of us have zero control over.

I should clarify. I'm not trying to make judgments on people's sexual fantasies. I just entertained my own for awhile. It kind of pained me cause I was off to the races with making my character a damsel in distress. Despite my hatred for that scenario, my body tells me a different story.
I am not saying that writing a fictionalized story about kidnapping a woman is wrong. It starts to become wrong when people want it to never end and no one to save them. I'd much rather a guy save the girl than her being in captivity forever, despite some recent sexual deviancy I just entertained. I am not so much into women overpowering the guy as much as I'm into him being saved. I would never leave the story with him being a captive forever. And I would never have sexual harrassment or sexual molestation be made out to be okay. And I certainly wouldn't focus on the sexual objectification and nothing else.
I think it's fine you have this fetish. I have this fetish too. It's just that some of the responses to the stories and the way the stories end up on this site seem really....wrong. Some people even say they wish they were the character in the story. That's just a bit....weird.
I hope to God that the people on this site would ever kidnap a person against their will (regardless of the gender of either the attacker or victim) and I'm sure most if not all of you don't. But I do get disgusted by some of the responses on this site based on the fact that the stories don't always have morally right endings.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by The Black Falcon » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:57 pm

Fantasies are fantasies. Some people have fantasies about kidnapping or being kidnapped. Some people, scary to think, have much more twisted fantasies that involve violence and veer into total macabre. But in the end, isn't it best that it's kept fictional? Like I said, fictional stories are a way for people with particular tastes to act on their fantasies without actually acting on them. It's a way to scratch that itch, if you will. And it's easy to get scared or weirded out by some of the more outlandish and frightening tastes, but in the end, we can all agree that they're much better left as stories than as anything in real life. Sure, these fictional stories can get savage and violent. But they're just fictional. And it's probably a good thing that these stories are being written instead of performed.
College student by day. Crime-fighting vigilante by night.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:20 pm

As wrong as it is, I will agree.
However, I wish we all could maintain some sort of moral highground in the end, you know, so it really is predicted as wrong in the end.
Sometimes it does get me that we (including myself) have these fantasies when they're so wrong. Unfortunately, we can't control our sexual fetishes. However, it does make me wonder why sometimes our lives can be taken over by this stuff (mine has been) even if it's fake. Do some of the people on this site have to write out these stories in order to not partake of them in real life? Are some people that unable to control their sexual desires?
Sometimes I have a sexist view of men as just thinking with their penises. A lot of the time I'm proven right about it. Maybe I just get weirded out easily because one guy touched my boob once or twice while I was driving him home and a little while later he whipped his penis out of his pants while we were in his driveway in my car. I was vulnerable at the time and wouldn't stick up for myself and was in a state where I thought I'd never get a guy but that I needed one, so I fell for this guy because he gave me attention, even though he was not at all the kind of dude I would ever in a stable state of mind be attracted to. What was even worse is that after I stopped wanting to hang out with him, he was the one who refused to ever talk to me anymore, since I wouldn't "chill with him." And he called me a prude b***h. It might also be worth it to mention that he said he wouldn't go out with me if I didn't have sex, even if it was just oral.
I'm better now, although the experience was still a little traumatizing, especially since I had just gone through a hardcore mental breakdown before I met him and was actually part of the reason why I met him (we were both patients in a mental hospital).
Needless to say, six months later when he sent me a picture of his man parts, I deleted the texts and got his number blocked. I also blocked him on facebook. If I ever see him again in a situation where he tries to pull any crap, he'll have another thing coming. Hopefully it won't come to him. If he was in danger, I might save his life, only because I don't want him to die, but after that, I'd tell him to get lost. I might give him a verbal assault as well and a good punch to the arm just to give him a bruise as a reminder, but not to injure him.
Sorry for the rant. I needed to vent. And this might tell you a bit of the basis for my dislikes.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sealherlips » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:38 pm

So if a guy ties a girl, he's a chauvinistic pig, but it's perfectly fine for you to write stories of women overpowering guys? You're coming off as a feminazi. Some guys are dominant. Add that with being straight and what do you get? A guy who likes to tie up girls. Not from some chauvinistic power trip, but because being tied up isn't a turn on to them and they are interested in girls. Stop being a hypocrite.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by cellofello » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:02 pm

> sarobah wrote:However, whether this is a result of nature or nurture, studies do show that when it comes to sexual fantasies, men are more likely to see themselves in the dominant role and women in the submissive role.

Your statement is slightly ambiguous. It is true that the dominant role has more appeal to heterosexual men than it does to heterosexual women. But it is not true that the dominant role has more appeal to heterosexual men than the submissive role holds for the same group of men - the reverse is true. Both sexes prefer submission to dominance. (I think the appeal rating method used in the study makes more sense than a simple yes/no because there are people who are switches - that is, they do not exclusively fantasize about one role or the other.)
Summary:
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/201 ... sults-noh/
Full paper:
http://www.people.ku.edu/~phawley/Publi ... 202009.pdf
The full paper might be tough sledding, but it is interesting because it proposes alternative theories for the source of the attraction to the submissive role beyond the standard ones of being able to enjoy sex free from guilt because it was involuntary, or as a reaction to one's social role, whether as reinforcement or compensation.
Sacrificiallove - I think that another factor distinguishing submissive fantasies of capture and/or rape from the reality is that in the fantasy, the person fantasizing _does_ have control of the fantasy. People with such fantasies are usually envisioning being captured and taken without their consent according to the victim's own fantasy script, and by the kind of person to whom they would have given consent if the scenario had been negotiated in advance. You are not fantasizing about a genuine total loss of control, but only a simulated one that stays within your limits and therefore in effect only a partial loss of control.

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by SamanthaBoundx » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:32 am

> Sacrificiallove wrote:I should clarify. I'm not trying to make judgments on people's sexual fantasies. . .
> I am not saying that writing a fictionalized story about kidnapping a woman is wrong. It starts to become wrong when people want it to never end and no one to save them. I'd much rather a guy save the girl than her being in captivity forever, despite some recent sexual deviancy I just entertained. I am not so much into women overpowering the guy as much as I'm into him being saved. I would never leave the story with him being a captive forever. And I would never have sexual harrassment or sexual molestation be made out to be okay. And I certainly wouldn't focus on the sexual objectification and nothing else.
> I think it's fine you have this fetish. I have this fetish too. It's just that some of the responses to the stories and the way the stories end up on this site seem really....wrong. Some people even say they wish they were the character in the story. That's just a bit....weird.
> I hope to God that the people on this site would ever kidnap a person against their will (regardless of the gender of either the attacker or victim) and I'm sure most if not all of you don't. But I do get disgusted by some of the responses on this site based on the fact that the stories don't always have morally right endings.

Okay, first off, you can't state that you aren't judging people for their sexual fantasies and then go to to call a fantasy that doesn't quite suit your taste "weird" and "morally wrong". People have fetishes - they vary massively in both breadth and depth - and all of them are just as acceptable and "morally correct" as others. This forum is supposed to be a place where people can explore their sexual fantasies, which are so often considered deviant in real life, without fear of judgement from others. You may not agree with someone's sexual fantasy, you might not understand it, you might think it's sick and twisted to the extreme - but it is not your place to tell them that it is wrong.
Secondly, you seem to have some bizarre idea that fetishism and real world actions are somehow linked. A fetish is merely a sexual fantasy. It has no bearing on a person's attitudes to life or how they would act in the real world. People don't choose to have the fantasies they do - whether they come about as a reuslt of genetics or exerience, I don't know - but (as you can clearly testify to) they are NOT choices. To attack, belittle or judge someone for their fetishes isn't much different from judging someone based on their sexuality - which I hope you would agree is totally unacceptable. Sexual harrassment and sexual objectification are erotic fantasies for some people - but it certainly doesn't mean they would act on those feelings elsewhere. And actually, from what I've found, the majority of guys who are truly into bondage treat women like absolute princesses, respect their boundaries and are far more aware of how their actions might be upsetting to them than your average man is. I have yet to encounter an extreme bondage fetishist who is secretly a misogynistic sex offender though. . .
As an aside here, I'd just like to say that I really am sorry to hear about your bad experiences. I cannot think of a single woman I know who hasn't been put into a similar situation, where a man makes inappropriate sexual advances and thinks it's acceptable. Whilst that's obviously incredibly distressing, it needs to be noted that this mass degradation and exploitation does NOT occur as the result of a few bondage/rape fantasies - it's the result of a much more sinister, misogynistic attitude that has been largely transposed on to our society.
I really do appreciate what you're trying to do here. I'm a feminist too and I think it's hugely important to spread awareness of areas in which there is still vast inequality but go mostly unnoticed. However, I think you're efforts here are largely misguided.
To argue about the use of bondage in mainstream media is one thing - women generally are portrayed as the weaker sex and are almost always the ones who end up in trouble and that isn't representative or fair. And the view of women as sexual objects in society at large is also an important issue that needs to be argued (if this topic in particular interests you, I suggest you take a look at the rape culture blogs on tumblr - they are a landmine of interesting, albeit slightly depressing, information). Trust me, I am willing to get behind pretty much ANY feminist argument - but I just cannot support this one. You are conflating two entirely seperate issues. Yes, I'm a feminist, but I'm also a huge believer in sex positivism. So long as fantasies remain fantasies, it really is not fair to judge anyone based on them - especially not in a domain in which they should feel safe an accepted in doing so.
(EDIT: I've just re-read that. I really hope I didn't come off too harsh - that wasn't my intention at all! Easy to get a bit carried away with a topic like this, right? xD Just to reiterate, I may not agree with your argument here, but I really DO respect your attitude towards feminism in general and that you're willing to put yourself out there to discuss it. It's a wonderful thing to see. Anyway, if anything I said offended/intrigued/whatevered you, then please feel free to message me!)

### Re: You guys won't like me saying this, but...

Post by Sacrificiallove » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:31 am

Samantha, I replied to your comment in a message, but I think this link I'm about to post will be good for all the readers of this thread to view.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/U ... s/Feminism
This page describes all the many different aspects and differing opinions on feminism, but for us here on this site, I'd especially like to point out the part on the stereotype that women are frigid, hate sex, and want to stop anyone from enjoying porn or fanservice. I clearly sums up my viewpoints. This is probably summed up by the not if they enjoyed it and sex slave part of it, but I think it is also good to mention that thinking it's okay to bind and gag a woman without her consent is okay and that feeling of her breasts while she's restrained is just wrong. Well some of these are just fantasies, some even seem as if they have done this sort of thing before. I would also be hesitant to tie someone up I don't even know even if they seem to be okay with it, and then start doing stuff together, and also to say (which in one case it was said) that they're doing it to keep the captive safe. I would also be cautious in situations of asking the lone female in a group of males or the lone male in a group of females if it's okay to tie them up and do as they please with him/her. I would never say yes to that. While in some instances I feel myself turned on by reading about it, I would very much believe that kind of situation would end up disasterous.
Anyway, aside from that rant, these aspects as portrayed in the porn world is bothersome, even if it's just a fantasy. I personally like seeing strong women in my porn (despite identifying as a hetereosexual female, I can get turned on by women), and I like seeing weak men in my porn as well. Some may feel differently, but sometimes the portrayals seem to get out of hand, and also focus on the sexual appeal of the woman and not on any other traits at all. This is especially bothersome, even in the porn world, especially when it comes to writing a fictional story.
I know I'm calling out specific stories here, but I did not say which ones and I assume they will never look at this or know that I am talking about them. I'm not really trying to judge this people, but I suppose I am. But really and truly I have a very feminist viewpoint, sometimes especially when it comes to porn, unless I'm having an off day or two.