## Stars and bars

Post by Chris12 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:16 am

So in recent days there appears to be a witch hunt against the Confederate flag still hanging over Southern government buildings.
For anyone that doesn't know. The Confederates state of America were a revolt from the Southern states in a conflict where the issue of slavery was of great importance. As such it is both seen as a symbol of oppression because of slavery and of Southern pride because of the revolt. As you can imagine the flag means different things depending on the color of your skin and where you happen to live.
After the Charleston shooting the former interpretation, that of it representing slavery has gained strength and as such louder and louder calls are made for the removal of the flag from government buildings and against the flag in general.
What are the opinions on this?

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by wataru14 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:38 am

The racial symbol debate is a little sticky. Saying the Civil War was purely about slaves is a gross oversimplification. It played a big part, but it was not the be-all, end-all. So I'm not going to address the racism association. It's far too murky to be an effective talking point. That being said, it is the flag of a nation that declared war on the United States. It is the flag of a nation that committed treason against the United States. I don't like bandying that word around (some people seem to love using it in inappropriate contexts), but in this case it is the primary definition of treason under US law. While I do not think that people should be banned for owning the flag or displaying it on private property (such thoughts would be completely anti-American), it should not be flown on the grounds of the state capitol building. The flag shouldn't be erased from history. That's just stupid. But it should not be flown from a place of honor on public land. That veers too close to state endorsement.
I went to college in Columbia, SC. There is a Civil War museum and Confederate Relic Room less than 1 mile from the State House. Put it there.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/South+C ... d33.998642

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by drawscore » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:09 pm

The Confederate flag is displayed on the capitol grounds of several state capitols. I visited Tallahassee several years back, and there is a prominent display of "The Flags That Have Flown Over Florida," which go back to the 16th century Spanish flag. No one has complained about the Confederate battle flag being displayed in that manner.
Drawscore

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:30 pm

Removing the flag would be only a symbolic gesture at best until the racist attitudes that brought about this controversy in the first place are dealt with. Until more people not only tolerate but accept the differences among people - not just race but gender identity and orientation, religious and political beliefs, and so on - taking down flags will accomplish nothing. This problem is not about flags... it's about people learning to set aside their baseless hatreds of one another and accepting one another as they are. Flags are only symbols; nothing more.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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### Re: Stars and bars

Post by misterg792000 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:30 pm

> wataru14 wrote:The racial symbol debate is a little sticky. Saying the Civil War was purely about slaves is a gross oversimplification. It played a big part, but it was not the be-all, end-all.

That would certainly be news to the "founding fathers" of the confederacy. To quote Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the CSA:
"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

> Jason Toddman wrote:This problem is not about flags

The flags *are* part of the problem, insofar as flying it over any government building (short of a national battlefield or whatnot) goes. Stop and think about what kind of message the state in question is sending by sanctioning that.

> drawscore wrote:The Confederate flag is displayed on the capitol grounds of several state capitols. I visited Tallahassee several years back, and there is a prominent display of "The Flags That Have Flown Over Florida," which go back to the 16th century Spanish flag. No one has complained about the Confederate battle flag being displayed in that manner.

I'll complain on grounds of accuracy, since the confederate "battle flag" was never the national flag of the CSA.
Last edited by misterg792000 on Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Kyle » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:02 pm

The Stars and Bars? That's this flag, the first official flag of the Confederate States of America:
The flag you are thinking of was a battle flag, primarily for the Army of Northern Virginia (Robert E. Lee's army, basically). It was never an official Confederate flag, something people on both sides of the debate seem to almost never actually know, so I can understand the confusion, although it did have its basic design integrated into a later flag (this is why a "real" "Confederate flag" is square, not the usual rectangle).
I've lived my entire life in areas that were part of the former Confederacy. The Confederate flag is, needless to say, a fairly big issue around here. It's not entirely uncommon to see it around (though it is also not waved by every other person like people who've clearly never set foot around here will pretend it is). I will say this, I do not think it has a place on official government property, except in places which are Civil War monuments, museums, or in a case of something like Drawscore described that you can find in some places which have all the flags that have flown over the area, although that should be the real Stars and Bars I have pictured above, not the battle flag.
I don't personally understand the obsession over it. It honors a rather stupid idea that was defeated. But I also know not everyone who waves it or owns one is a racist trying to spout racist ideas. The flag was adopted by white supremacist groups, notably the KKK, so I'd be lying if I said I didn't somewhat understand where the idea comes from to people who've probably never been south of St. Louis and don't know better. I don't own a Confederate flag myself and don't plan to buy one and think people should think about why they fly it sometimes, but not everybody who flies it wants slavery to make a comeback.
But there is one thing about this entire debate that disturbs me. Why is this the bigger issue than the 9 senseless murders that occurred in Charleston, SC? We are in serious danger of forgetting about them. You can burn every flag you can find and it wouldn't have stopped the mindset behind it some people have.

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:50 pm

> misterg792000 wrote:

> > Jason Toddman wrote:This problem is not about flags

> The flags *are* part of the problem, insofar as flying it over any government building (short of a national battlefield or whatnot) goes. Stop and think about what kind of message the state in question is sending by sanctioning that.

Perhaps i should have clarified and stated that the flag is not the real problem.
It's part of the problem, yes. Just as a swastika painted on the walls of a synagogue is part of a much larger problem.
But the real problem are the people who hold the attitude that they or their (social or political) beliefs are superior to those of anyone else. When it comes to race, religion, political affiliation, or sexual orientation, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and no one's opinions are better than those of anyone else.
The only beliefs imo that are superior to those of another are the beliefs of the scientifically literate concerning science (and only science) over those of the scientifically illiterate (say, evolution over creationism). Scientific truths trump illogical beliefs about how life, the universe, and everything were created - but that's a completely different matter where pure logic and facts DO apply. There is NO logic in racism, chauvinism, one religion being better than another religion, and so forth.
Flags and other symbols of a noxious belief like racism are a problem - but they are only the visible symbols of a much greater problem. Instead of pissing and moaning about the confederate flag, we should be dealing with the racist beliefs of those who think nothing of demeaning people of color. Concentrating on the flag is only in fact concealing the real problem and isn't helping anyone - least of all African-American people.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Chris12 » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:05 pm

> I'll complain on grounds of accuracy, since the confederate "battle flag" was never the national flag of the CSA.

Yes so I found out mere hours after making this topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULBCuHIpNgU

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:17 am

> Chris12 wrote:

> > I'll complain on grounds of accuracy, since the confederate "battle flag" was never the national flag of the CSA.

> Yes so I found out mere hours after making this topic
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULBCuHIpNgU

Don't feel bad about it, Chris12. Most Americans would be fooled as well. That's one of the reasons why I consider the flag to be only a small part of the problem... but the battle flag is a symbol while the stars and bars are not (I think many people today might not even recognize the latter unless they lived in one of the former Confederate states). But the battle flag / rebel flag is an important symbol - and unfortunately one tat seems to mean different things to different people.
By the way after watching the video you posted i ran across this one which - though you'd likely would go "Well, duh!" upon seeing it - would also be news to many Americans as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_IUPInEuc
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by misterg792000 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:17 pm

> Jason Toddman wrote:Flags and other symbols of a noxious belief like racism are a problem - but they are only the visible symbols of a much greater problem. Instead of pissing and moaning about the confederate flag, we should be dealing with the racist beliefs of those who think nothing of demeaning people of color. Concentrating on the flag is only in fact concealing the real problem and isn't helping anyone - least of all African-American people.

I have yet to see anyone "concentrating on the flag" and saying nothing about other racism. If you want to deal with the racist beliefs of those who think nothing of demeaning people of color, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better way to start than by removing an officially-sanctioned-by-those-in-power display of it.

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:49 pm

All I know is that every black person *I* know (granted there aren't many to begin with up here) whom i have talked to about it thinks of this business with the confederate flag as a distraction rather than dealing with the real issues. Have you discussed this with those whom it really concerns, or just other whites?
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by xtc » Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:16 pm

I probably shouldn't intrude on the grief of others but, in the light of one of the above suggestions, I wonder what the Chanel Islanders would think if all their historical flags were flown. I don't think the swastika would go down too well.
Note: The Chanel Islands in the English Channel were occupied by the Nazis from 30th June 1940 (Yes, the Second World War HAD started by then!) until liberation in 1945.
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!
More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:54 pm

> xtc wrote:I probably shouldn't intrude on the grief of others but, in the light of one of the above suggestions, I wonder what the Chanel Islanders would think if all their historical flags were flown. I don't think the swastika would go down too well.
> Note: The Chanel Islands in the English Channel were occupied by the Nazis from 30th June 1940 (Yes, the Second World War HAD started by then!) until liberation in 1945.

I would imagine though that this was not by their own choice at any time. After all, the Nazis were not known for taking "no" for an answer.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by misterg792000 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:08 pm

> Jason Toddman wrote:All I know is that every black person *I* know (granted there aren't many to begin with up here) whom i have talked to about it thinks of this business with the confederate flag as a distraction rather than dealing with the real issues. Have you discussed this with those whom it really concerns, or just other whites?

Yes and yes. Given that Maine is only 1.1% black (vs NC's 21.3%) and a state where one does not traditionally find people flying the confederate flag in the first place, you'll forgive me if I don't attach much weight to anecdotal evidence from there.

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:54 pm

> misterg792000 wrote:

> > Jason Toddman wrote:All I know is that every black person *I* know (granted there aren't many to begin with up here) whom i have talked to about it thinks of this business with the confederate flag as a distraction rather than dealing with the real issues. Have you discussed this with those whom it really concerns, or just other whites?

> Yes and yes. Given that Maine is only 1.1% black (vs NC's 21.3%) and a state where one does not traditionally find people flying the confederate flag in the first place, you'll forgive me if I don't attach much weight to anecdotal evidence from there.

Fine... then how about this?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-black-a ... 51079.html
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Kyle » Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:59 pm

> Chris12 wrote:

> > I'll complain on grounds of accuracy, since the confederate "battle flag" was never the national flag of the CSA.

> Yes so I found out mere hours after making this topic
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULBCuHIpNgU

We can't really fault you for not knowing it. There's no way I'd look down on a Dutch person not knowing it when even most Americans don't know it.

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:04 pm

> Kyle wrote:

> > Chris12 wrote:

> > > I'll complain on grounds of accuracy, since the confederate "battle flag" was never the national flag of the CSA.

> > Yes so I found out mere hours after making this topic
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULBCuHIpNgU

> We can't really fault you for not knowing it. There's no way I'd look down on a Dutch person not knowing it when even most Americans don't know it.

Besides all that Chris, you probably know more American history than we Americans know Dutch history. It's we great Americans who should be ashamed... our ignorance of things outside our immediate concerns is truly abysmal. Hell, I myself couldn't name for than three or four kings or queens in Dutch history without a Google search; most other Americans probably could not name even one. Yet you know the names of at least some of our Presidents. So really you've got nothing to feel bad about.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Chris12 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:59 am

> wataru14 wrote:The racial symbol debate is a little sticky. Saying the Civil War was purely about slaves is a gross oversimplification. It played a big part, but it was not the be-all, end-all. So I'm not going to address the racism association. It's far too murky to be an effective talking point. That being said, it is the flag of a nation that declared war on the United States. It is the flag of a nation that committed treason against the United States. I don't like bandying that word around (some people seem to love using it in inappropriate contexts), but in this case it is the primary definition of treason under US law. While I do not think that people should be banned for owning the flag or displaying it on private property (such thoughts would be completely anti-American), it should not be flown on the grounds of the state capitol building. The flag shouldn't be erased from history. That's just stupid. But it should not be flown from a place of honor on public land. That veers too close to state endorsement.
> I went to college in Columbia, SC. There is a Civil War museum and Confederate Relic Room less than 1 mile from the State House. Put it there.
> https://www.google.com/maps/dir/South+C ... d33.998642

That's pretty much my opinion on it. The flag shouldn't be on a state building because its most positive interpretation is one of rebellion against that very same building. I wouldn't discount the slavery aspect thought because as Misterg said, the confederate was pretty open about why they rebelled. The flag most negative interpretation is slavery and that shouldn't fly on a government building either.
I think the flag should stay in every other context. You shouldn't forbid people from buying or selling it, it should definitely remain at memorial for Southern soldiers.
The desire to want the flag gone also borders on the ridiculous in some cases with the car from Duke of Hazzards being censored or Apple removing historical games from their store because they feature the flag as they should, it its full context.
Not wanting the flag on government buildings is very reasonable but it shouldn't disappear outright. Its history, it happened and you can't change it an thus the historical significance will always be there.

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by misterg792000 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:39 pm

> Jason Toddman wrote:

> > misterg792000 wrote:Yes and yes. Given that Maine is only 1.1% black (vs NC's 21.3%) and a state where one does not traditionally find people flying the confederate flag in the first place, you'll forgive me if I don't attach much weight to anecdotal evidence from there.

> Fine... then how about this?
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/many-black-a ... 51079.html

More anecdotal evidence, with a sample size of two, from a non-slaveholding, non-confederate state where your chances of finding anyone flying the flag in the first place is hilariously low.
If it's such a "distraction", then why argue against removing it from the equation?

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:47 pm

> misterg792000 wrote: If it's such a "distraction", then why argue against removing it from the equation?

I am not. What I am trying to do is point out that the flag is not the real problem. It is only a small part of the problem; however symptomatic of the problem it may be. The real problem is people treating other people badly that's the real problem, regardless of what flags they like or do not like. Fix how people treat one another and no one will give a damn about the Confederate Rebel Flag.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Kyle » Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:36 pm

> Chris12 wrote:

> > wataru14 wrote:The racial symbol debate is a little sticky. Saying the Civil War was purely about slaves is a gross oversimplification. It played a big part, but it was not the be-all, end-all. So I'm not going to address the racism association. It's far too murky to be an effective talking point. That being said, it is the flag of a nation that declared war on the United States. It is the flag of a nation that committed treason against the United States. I don't like bandying that word around (some people seem to love using it in inappropriate contexts), but in this case it is the primary definition of treason under US law. While I do not think that people should be banned for owning the flag or displaying it on private property (such thoughts would be completely anti-American), it should not be flown on the grounds of the state capitol building. The flag shouldn't be erased from history. That's just stupid. But it should not be flown from a place of honor on public land. That veers too close to state endorsement.
> > I went to college in Columbia, SC. There is a Civil War museum and Confederate Relic Room less than 1 mile from the State House. Put it there.
> > https://www.google.com/maps/dir/South+C ... d33.998642

> That's pretty much my opinion on it. The flag shouldn't be on a state building because its most positive interpretation is one of rebellion against that very same building. I wouldn't discount the slavery aspect thought because as Misterg said, the confederate was pretty open about why they rebelled. The flag most negative interpretation is slavery and that shouldn't fly on a government building either.
> I think the flag should stay in every other context. You shouldn't forbid people from buying or selling it, it should definitely remain at memorial for Southern soldiers.
> The desire to want the flag gone also borders on the ridiculous in some cases with the car from Duke of Hazzards being censored or Apple removing historical games from their store because they feature the flag as they should, it its full context.
> Not wanting the flag on government buildings is very reasonable but it shouldn't disappear outright. Its history, it happened and you can't change it an thus the historical significance will always be there.

Overreaction: the American way.

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Tue Jun 30, 2015 6:40 pm

> Kyle wrote: Overreaction: the American way.

While i definitely agree that such is a definitely common thing in this country, I'm not sure that's really a uniquely American or even modern characteristic. i can cite numerous examples from almost every significant current and historical culture from the past 3000 years. The bible alone is rife with splendid examples, but even leaving that out of the discussion I can cite extreme examples from the Greek, Persian, and Roman Empires onward.
Sometimes under-reactions, though rarer, can be just as bad too.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by drawscore » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:27 am

There's all kinds of dangerous shit going on in the world, and our idiot politicians are obsessing over a flag, and the name of a football team. How do these shit for brains numb nuts keep getting elected?
Drawscore

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:50 am

> drawscore wrote:There's all kinds of dangerous shit going on in the world, and our idiot politicians are obsessing over a flag, and the name of a football team. How do these shit for brains numb nuts keep getting elected?
> Drawscore

Because they are easily bought by the rich and can easily fool the vast majority of the electorate which, after all, is not very damned bright. Besides which, it's a distraction to keep us from realizing that they cannot solve our problems and hence do not deserve our votes.
It's a modern-day version of the old Roman tradition of bread and circuses - and they're the clowns.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by drawscore » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:36 am

> Jason Toddman wrote:Because they are easily bought by the rich and can easily fool the vast majority of the electorate which, after all, is not very damned bright. Besides which, it's a distraction to keep us from realizing that they cannot solve our problems and hence do not deserve our votes.
> It's a modern-day version of the old Roman tradition of bread and circuses - and they're the clowns.

True, but it does not explain why the media is covering for them by playing up the nonsense about flags and football teams, and ignoring so much other stuff.
Drawscore

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:44 pm

> drawscore wrote:True, but it does not explain why the media is covering for them by playing up the nonsense about flags and football teams, and ignoring so much other stuff. Drawscore

Because the Media - broadcast and print - has been bought by the rich as well. I thought everyone knew this. And I mean all of them; liberal and conservative ones alike. That's why i don't follow *any* of the broadcast media anymore. Well, that and because i no longer have a TV. And newspaper are an endangered species now anyway. There's no such thing as unbiased reporting anymore... if there ever has been such a thing.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by misterg792000 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:47 pm

> Jason Toddman wrote:

> > misterg792000 wrote: If it's such a "distraction", then why argue against removing it from the equation?

> I am not. What I am trying to do is point out that the flag is not the real problem.

Who are you arguing against that claims it is?

> Jason Toddman wrote:Fix how people treat one another and no one will give a damn about the Confederate Rebel Flag.

You're not going to "fix how people treat one another" while your representative government celebrates enslaving and subjugating other people. You may as well fix a leak by putting a bucket under it and ignoring the faucet.

> drawscore wrote:There's all kinds of dangerous shit going on in the world, and our idiot politicians are obsessing over a flag, and the name of a football team.

Name the politicians "obsessing over the flag" (good luck, since no one outside of the state governments flying the damn thing have even attempted any sort of decree), or anyone obsessing over "the name of a football team" or even talking about it in the last six months. While you're at it, explain why conservatives rush to defend or deflect from the silliest racist nonsense.
Believe it or not, you can acknowledge more than one Bad Thing (tm) at a time, and it's far more constructive to do so when it comes to something at home you can actually fix.

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by Jason Toddman » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:17 pm

> misterg792000 wrote:

> > Jason Toddman wrote:

> > > misterg792000 wrote: If it's such a "distraction", then why argue against removing it from the equation?

> > I am not. What I am trying to do is point out that the flag is not the real problem.

> Who are you arguing against that claims it is?

Near as I can tell... you. Which is strange since we usually seem to have much the same political beliefs.
In any case, I am unsure i understand just what point you are trying to make here.

> misterg792000 wrote:

> > Jason Toddman wrote:Fix how people treat one another and no one will give a damn about the Confederate Rebel Flag.

> You're not going to "fix how people treat one another" while your representative government celebrates enslaving and subjugating other people. You may as well fix a leak by putting a bucket under it and ignoring the faucet.

We do not seem to be on the same page on this issue at all. In fact, I am unsure just what in hell you are taking about. I'm talking about people. Period. Not churches. Not governments. Not political organizations. Not governmental agencies with a disagreeable agenda. Just people, without which there would be none of the rest. To make these changes, we need to change peoples' perceptions of other people - not governments or this other nonsense.
What you're talking about is something completely different altogether and, as near as i can tell, is at best only indirectly relevant to this discussion. The rich and powerful lording it over the rest of us. Something i agree must change bit that's not what we're discussing here.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by drawscore » Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:13 am

The one politician that seems to be making the most noise about the Washington Redskins, is Harry Reid. The ones blowing smoke over the Confederate battle flag, are too numerous to name. And the one doing the most to obstruct congressional investigations, is Elijah Cummings.
I remember the NCAA making silly noises about Native American mascots, and they went after the Florida State University Seminoles. The Seminole tribe of Florida said it was proud that the university had chosen the Seminoles for their mascot, and if the NCAA disrespected the Seminole Nation by requiring FSU to choose a new mascot, the tribe (flush with gambling revenue from several casinos) told the NCAA that they would "sue their socks off."
The NCAA backed off in a big hurry. That was a mess they did not want any part of.
Drawscore

### Re: Stars and bars

Post by misterg792000 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:52 am

> Jason Toddman wrote:

> > misterg792000 wrote:

> > > Jason Toddman wrote:

> > > > misterg792000 wrote: If it's such a "distraction", then why argue against removing it from the equation?

> > > I am not. What I am trying to do is point out that the flag is not the real problem.

> > Who are you arguing against that claims it is?

> Near as I can tell... you. Which is strange since we usually seem to have much the same political beliefs.
> In any case, I am unsure i understand just what point you are trying to make here.

Yeah, you're jousting a straw man.

> Jason Toddman wrote:

> > misterg792000 wrote:

> > > Jason Toddman wrote:Fix how people treat one another and no one will give a damn about the Confederate Rebel Flag.

> > You're not going to "fix how people treat one another" while your representative government celebrates enslaving and subjugating other people. You may as well fix a leak by putting a bucket under it and ignoring the faucet.

> We do not seem to be on the same page on this issue at all. In fact, I am unsure just what in hell you are taking about. I'm talking about people. Period. Not churches. Not governments. Not political organizations. Not governmental agencies with a disagreeable agenda. Just people, without which there would be none of the rest. To make these changes, we need to change peoples' perceptions of other people - not governments or this other nonsense.

You're talking about people while unrealistically dismissing the things that shape their beliefs or at the very least their perception of what beliefs are socially acceptable. Yeah okay.