Britain, in or out?

Postby Chris12 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:25 am

So the British are getting a referendum about wheter they stay in the European union or pack their things and leave. Jahoo! with the mess in Greece becoming old news i was starting to worry we'd ran out of stuff to fuel Eurosceptism :roll: So what are your thoughts about it, i'm especially interested in what you Brits have to say about it.

As for me i think its unwise, both for them and the rest of us but its their choice to make...i guess.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby mcsproot » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:48 am

Too bad it won't be until next term.

Which starts in 2015 and lasts until 2020.

And assumes that David Cameron remains Prime Minister.

All we get out of the EU is a £50 million a day bill, of which we see a return of a tiny percentage, get laws and regulations that don't apply well to an island nation with many outlying islands, have pointless elections for the European Parliament (I can name my MP and MSP easily, no idea who my MEP is) and, the kicker, get told it is illegal to deport terrorists, terrorists supporters, and those who spread Jihad in our country.

Not to mention, joining the EU has lead to a huge rise in immigration, and because Scotland's Government pays for the tution of it's college and University students, the EU says that we must pay the tution of all students who study in Scotland from the EU. (except for England and Wales, who have to pay £9000 a year. Northern Irish can 'cheat' and use their Republic of Ireland citizenship.)

Leave the EU, but stay in the Common Market. Like Norway, they had the good idea.

I do dearly hope Alex Salmond allows us Scots the same referendum about re-joining the EU when we get 'expelled' for being a new member state.
23 year old guy from the UK.

Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby Chris12 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:36 am

I'm not sure i agree. The EU bends over backwards to cater to the British and in comparison to what it gives Great Britain recieves much more the other nations and they are free not to join things they don't like or simply veto it. Leaving won't gain you anything, its true you have to pay for the Union but the trade benifits and treaty's make up for that. Leave and you still have to trade with Europe(They are your biggest parteners) but in an much more unfavorable position then where you are in now. Also I think it will harm British prestige in the long run, I believe Europe can only stay important globally if they band togheter, any nation that doesn't do that will gradually fade away from the scene.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby the other one » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:58 pm

Chris12 wrote: Leaving won't gain you anything, its true you have to pay for the Union but the trade benifits and treaty's make up for that. Leave and you still have to trade with Europe(They are your biggest parteners) but in an much more unfavorable position then where you are in now. Also I think it will harm British prestige in the long run, I believe Europe can only stay important globally if they band togheter, any nation that doesn't do that will gradually fade away from the scene.


The EU is a failed construction of some stupid politicians. Only the idea behind, might be good. Your British are so lucky, if you really get asked about leaving the EU. I suppose nearly the people of every member state would like to have this chance to leave the EU. You British had also the great chance to hold your currency. I hope other states will follow.
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”


Bertrand Russell

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby mcsproot » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:01 pm

the other one wrote:
Chris12 wrote: Leaving won't gain you anything, its true you have to pay for the Union but the trade benifits and treaty's make up for that. Leave and you still have to trade with Europe(They are your biggest parteners) but in an much more unfavorable position then where you are in now. Also I think it will harm British prestige in the long run, I believe Europe can only stay important globally if they band togheter, any nation that doesn't do that will gradually fade away from the scene.


The EU is a failed construction of some stupid politicians. Only the idea behind, might be good. Your British are so lucky, if you really get asked about leaving the EU. I suppose nearly the people of every member state would like to have this chance to leave the EU. You British had also the great chance to hold your currency. I hope other states will follow.


The Euro was a good idea in principal, but it ruined the Spanish and Greek tourism industries. The peseta and drachma were cheap to buy with pounds, francs and marks, so people from those countries could have a cheap, good holiday there. The Euro made it too expensive to go there, so they went elsewhere (or stayed in their own country).
23 year old guy from the UK.

Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby mcsproot » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:04 pm

Chris12 wrote:I'm not sure i agree. The EU bends over backwards to cater to the British and in comparison to what it gives Great Britain recieves much more the other nations and they are free not to join things they don't like or simply veto it. Leaving won't gain you anything, its true you have to pay for the Union but the trade benifits and treaty's make up for that. Leave and you still have to trade with Europe(They are your biggest parteners) but in an much more unfavorable position then where you are in now. Also I think it will harm British prestige in the long run, I believe Europe can only stay important globally if they band togheter, any nation that doesn't do that will gradually fade away from the scene.


That's odd, considering France and Germany are often telling the UK that we can't 'cherry pick' what we want.

Can someone please tell me what advantages the UK gains from being in the EU? Trade doesn't really count since I highly doubt we will leave the Common Market, which has pretty much all the benefits but none of the drawbacks (IE having Brussels telling us who we can and cannot deport from our country).
23 year old guy from the UK.

Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby Chris12 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:03 pm

That's odd, considering France and Germany are often telling the UK that we can't 'cherry pick' what we want.


Indeed they do say that, i wonder why :big: The fact it even needs to be said speaks volumes to me. Britain isn't using the Euro nor is it in Shengen. They joined but did so on their terms not ours.

Can someone please tell me what advantages the UK gains from being in the EU? Trade doesn't really count since I highly doubt we will leave the Common Market, which has pretty much all the benefits but none of the drawbacks (IE having Brussels telling us who we can and cannot deport from our country).


Actually trade does count. A Britain out of the Euro would be economically dependent on Europe, but with no say at the negotiating table. But okay, another advantage is Britains standing in the world. A Britain in the EU would have the entire union backing them up in a diplomatic conflict with China or America for example, leave and they most likely won't which means British concerns and interest could be ignored.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby Chris12 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:07 pm

the other one wrote:
Chris12 wrote: Leaving won't gain you anything, its true you have to pay for the Union but the trade benifits and treaty's make up for that. Leave and you still have to trade with Europe(They are your biggest parteners) but in an much more unfavorable position then where you are in now. Also I think it will harm British prestige in the long run, I believe Europe can only stay important globally if they band togheter, any nation that doesn't do that will gradually fade away from the scene.


The EU is a failed construction of some stupid politicians. Only the idea behind, might be good. Your British are so lucky, if you really get asked about leaving the EU. I suppose nearly the people of every member state would like to have this chance to leave the EU. You British had also the great chance to hold your currency. I hope other states will follow.


I wouldn't call it a failure but it does need some work. Are you from Europe by the way? you post sounds like it.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby mcsproot » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:17 pm

Chris12 wrote:
That's odd, considering France and Germany are often telling the UK that we can't 'cherry pick' what we want.


Indeed they do say that, i wonder why :big: The fact it even needs to be said speaks volumes to me. Britain isn't using the Euro nor is it in Shengen. They joined but did so on their terms not ours.

Can someone please tell me what advantages the UK gains from being in the EU? Trade doesn't really count since I highly doubt we will leave the Common Market, which has pretty much all the benefits but none of the drawbacks (IE having Brussels telling us who we can and cannot deport from our country).


Actually trade does count. A Britain out of the Euro would be economically dependent on Europe, but with no say at the negotiating table. But okay, another advantage is Britains standing in the world. A Britain in the EU would have the entire union backing them up in a diplomatic conflict with China or America for example, leave and they most likely won't which means British concerns and interest could be ignored.


I haven't heard of Shengen, what is it?

By 'Britain out of the Euro' I assume you meant EU.

As for trade, Scotland at least has a large export market of meat products and whiskey to Asia, mostly due to the up and coming middle classes in China. You mention negotiations, I assume you mean things such as quality laws? Wouldn't the UK still have this option as a part of the Common Market?

As for the UK's standing in the world, it at least appears to me that what France and Germany want (particularly Germnay) is what gets done. At least in British media, no other countries really get mentioned in terms of the EU. Besides, Obama has made it quite clear (and rather bluntly) that it is in the interests of the USA for the UK to remain in the EU. I'd imagine that the British delegates often get a little 'talking to' by US diplomats about how to expresses American interests in internal European politics.

Also, negotiations outside the EU do occur. The most recent one I was aware of was between Norway and the EU about fishing quotas.
23 year old guy from the UK.

Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby the other one » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:33 am

mcsproot wrote:
I haven't heard of Shengen, what is it?

It is a contract.
The border between member states is no longer controlled. So you can move free around this area.
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”


Bertrand Russell

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby the other one » Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:16 am

Chris12 wrote:I wouldn't call it a failure but it does need some work. Are you from Europe by the way? you post sounds like it.


Yeah I'm European.

Not a failure? In your dreams.

The people can take even less influence on politics.
There's almost no democratic legitimation.
The contract of Lisbon reduced the fundamental rights and reestablish the death penalty.
It is centralized, that means too far away from the people to see their need.
Lobbyists in Brussels rule the EU undemocratic.
It standardize everything. For certain things it might be a good Idea, but who cares, if the cucumbers are curved a bit too much? Or, carrots aren't anymore vegetable, they are now fruit.
.....
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”


Bertrand Russell

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby Chris12 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:45 am

Not a failure? In your dreams.


Has it problem? yes. Has it advantages? yes. Do countries profit from it? Mine certainly does.

The people can take even less influence on politics.

Can...or want? if there is an election of something EU related not many people show up.

There's almost no democratic legitimation.

Can be fixed in time.

The contract of Lisbon reduced the fundamental rights and reestablish the death penalty.

I've yet to notice my right being reduced and i'm not all that opposed to the deathpenalty.

It is centralized, that means too far away from the people to see their need.

Centralized doesn't have to mean bad. Also the countries still largly run themselves.

Lobbyists in Brussels rule the EU undemocratic.

And Lobbyists in Whasington rule the state, what else is new. It does seem less pronoucned her so...kudos? :P

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby Chris12 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:54 am

As for trade, Scotland at least has a large export market of meat products and whiskey to Asia, mostly due to the up and coming middle classes in China. You mention negotiations, I assume you mean things such as quality laws? Wouldn't the UK still have this option as a part of the Common Market?


Trade with Europ is still bigger then with Asia and thats not likely to change. I don't know if they even can stay in the common market if they leave the EU, why keep them if they don't benitfit the others. Just quiting the trade benifits with Britain would be in Europes advantage if they leave.

As for the UK's standing in the world, it at least appears to me that what France and Germany want (particularly Germnay) is what gets done. At least in British media, no other countries really get mentioned in terms of the EU


Germany more then France mostly because they are one of the countries doing well and are motivated for the EU.

Also, negotiations outside the EU do occur. The most recent one I was aware of was between Norway and the EU about fishing quotas.

Countries always negotiate but Norway has no way to chance EU policy is it would turn out negative for them, for the moment Britain does.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby the other one » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:06 am

Chris12 wrote:
Not a failure? In your dreams.


Has it problem? yes. Has it advantages? yes. Do countries profit from it? Mine certainly does.


What kind of advantages?

Chris12 wrote:
The people can take even less influence on politics.

Can...or want? if there is an election of something EU related not many people show up.


Because you got the choose between something bad and something worse.

Chris12 wrote:
There's almost no democratic legitimation.

Can be fixed in time.


This can't be fixed. An exception is, when the people in every country are questioned about staying or leaving. But then most would choose to leave.

Chris12 wrote:
The contract of Lisbon reduced the fundamental rights and reestablish the death penalty.

I've yet to notice my right being reduced and i'm not all that opposed to the deathpenalty.


To forbid it, was an improvement in the history of law.

Chris12 wrote:
It is centralized, that means too far away from the people to see their need.

Centralized doesn't have to mean bad. Also the countries still largly run themselves.


That's not a question about running a state. It's about politics, that can see the local differences, problems, and customs. In their activity, they solve the problems and respect the customs of different regions. And they are nearer by the people, so they don't lose an eye for what is important and what not.

Chris12 wrote:
Lobbyists in Brussels rule the EU undemocratic.

And Lobbyists in Whasington rule the state, what else is new. It does seem less pronoucned her so...kudos? :P


I didn't say that the USA is different or better. But you can see it there and also in europe, that many citizens don't feel heard by the government. The government does just what big concerns and banks want them to do.

Chris12 wrote:Germany more then France mostly because they are one of the countries doing well and are motivated for the EU.


Germany not really. There are many who want to leave the EU. But just the politicians want to stay. And even Germany isn't doing well. And the people don't want to pay for everyone other.

The most important thing for Germany is to become a sovereign state. So there is no time for EU.
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”


Bertrand Russell

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby Chris12 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:53 am

What kind of advantages?


Lets take my country for example. Half of our income comes by trade and half of that half comes from trade with Europe. We get lots of jobs from Europe, the one coin boosts trading efficiancy, economic protection isn't allowed against our products giving us an advantage on the market and the open borders are pretty good for trading as well. With our economy depending on Europe so much every economic advantage it brings is good for our economy.

Because you got the choose between something bad and something worse.

I'd argue that attitude isn't helping things at all. If you don't vote you have no right to say your voice isn't heard and lets be honest, president of the EU and all the rest are little more then a formality at the moment. The leaders of each country decide most things either behind or before the screen and those are people you do elect.


This can't be fixed. An exception is, when the people in every country are questioned about staying or leaving. But then most would choose to leave.

Perhaps but i'd say i wouldn't dissagree at all with the goverment ignoring those people. If what the people want goes against with whats good for the nation they should be ignored no matter their numbers.

But you can see it there and also in europe, that many citizens don't feel heard by the government. The government does just what big concerns and banks want them to do.


Or just whats good for the nations. I don't find it hard to believe that those people knowing how much harm an exit out of the EU would be economicly are doing everything they can to prevent such a thing. I'm not all that Pro Europe but i do recognise the cost of leaving far outweight the cost of staying.

The most important thing for Germany is to become a sovereign state. So there is no time for EU.


I don't really understand what you mean by that. How isn't Germany a sovereign state?

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby mcsproot » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:15 am

Chris12, it is obvious that you feel that Holland has greatly benefited from being in the EU. Having no knowledge of Holland I can't comment on that.

If the UK was out of the EU politics but kept in the Common Market, we'd probably have more power. Money talks more than words. They want to buy our goods for less than they are worth? Fine, you don't get them, I'm sure someone else wants them just as badly as you do. Your main (only) argument for why the EU is good is because of trade. Which we will still have plenty of if we remain in the Common Market.

Also, the fact of whether or not EU citizens can freely move around Europe is of little consequence to the UK. I won't say that European tourists are negligible, but considering the issues they would face here (sea or air crossing, pounds are expensive compared to euros) they would probably sooner visit another mainland Europe country (or the Republic of Ireland, which uses the Euro).

In the UK, we have a lot of tension when it comes to EU politics. It is still in living memory that the British Empire was THE world superpower, dwarfing both the USA and USSR. As such, we have somewhat of a superiority complex, we are resentful that our world standing is relatively so little. Thus, we really REALLY hate being told what we can and cannot do by another world power. So many times I have seen civil cases be dragged out by going up through the court hierarchy, ending the the European Court of Human Rights, which pretty much never makes a decision in the UK's national interest. Ever heard of Abu Qatada?

His is an 'Islamic preacher' AKA spreader of extremism and hatred, not to mention a terrorist. He has sponged millions of pounds from the UK Government because of our wellfare system, claiming everything he can such as housing benefit and legal fees for the numerous court cases he has been through, mostly revolving around deporting him. In the case of Abu Hamza, another hate preacher, who was wanted by the USA on terrorism charges, it took FOURTEEN YEARS to get him deported, because the European Court of 'Human Rights' kept getting in the way.

So I say again, by leaving the EU, the UK will:

Be able to copy laws passed by the EU it likes without having to take the ones it hates.
Have a lessened impact by the inevitable crash of the euro.
Be able to deport criminals and terrorists which threaten our nation.
Cut the national debt by 10% (£50 million a day to be in the EU, UK Treasury borrows £500 million a day).

If you can explain to me what advantage being in the EU over being in the Common Market has for the UK (not Holland) then I will give your argument more due.
23 year old guy from the UK.

Send me a private message on the board if you want to add me to your MSN, Yahoo, or anything else.

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby the other one » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:52 am

Chris12 wrote:
What kind of advantages?


Lets take my country for example. Half of our income comes by trade and half of that half comes from trade with Europe. We get lots of jobs from Europe, the one coin boosts trading efficiancy, economic protection isn't allowed against our products giving us an advantage on the market and the open borders are pretty good for trading as well. With our economy depending on Europe so much every economic advantage it brings is good for our economy.

Economy is not everything. The faith, that economic growth will bring prosperity, is wrong. Even the idea, that economy grows for ever, is wrong too. When will mankind understand, that economy isn't a golden lamb, that stands over everything.

If economy is the only advantage of the EU, then create an european trade organisation and eliminat the EU. Because the EU means many more than only trade.

Chris12 wrote:
Because you got the choose between something bad and something worse.

I'd argue that attitude isn't helping things at all. If you don't vote you have no right to say your voice isn't heard and lets be honest, president of the EU and all the rest are little more then a formality at the moment. The leaders of each country decide most things either behind or before the screen and those are people you do elect.


I vote, but not a stupid proposal, but an alternative, that isn't proposed. I suppose this is invalid, but I won't vote for the others.

Chris12 wrote:
This can't be fixed. An exception is, when the people in every country are questioned about staying or leaving. But then most would choose to leave.

Perhaps but i'd say i wouldn't dissagree at all with the goverment ignoring those people. If what the people want goes against with whats good for the nation they should be ignored no matter their numbers.


And who says, what's good for the nation? Who has the right to say that?

As an example there is someone, who can say that. This person says the best for the nation is, to kill everyone with a certain religion. People who are against it should be ignored, because it's the best for the nation. Let's take this example to an existing incident, like national socialism in germany. With your argumentation you legalize the genocide.

I suppose higher fundamental rights and the majority go before the ideas of politicans.

Chris12 wrote:
But you can see it there and also in europe, that many citizens don't feel heard by the government. The government does just what big concerns and banks want them to do.


Or just whats good for the nations. I don't find it hard to believe that those people knowing how much harm an exit out of the EU would be economicly are doing everything they can to prevent such a thing. I'm not all that Pro Europe but i do recognise the cost of leaving far outweight the cost of staying.


Freedom is a much bigger value. And there are other values bigger than economy. The economy is the only thing, you can express in money. But money is just a fictional value, but there are real values far away from the economy.

Chris12 wrote:
The most important thing for Germany is to become a sovereign state. So there is no time for EU.


I don't really understand what you mean by that. How isn't Germany a sovereign state?


In Germany like it is today, there is no existing constitution. There is a GG but this is only an imposed postwar settlement. The organisation is more like a Ltd. than a state. The people there have no legally nationality. The country is still occupied. And so on..
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”


Bertrand Russell

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby Tieup1 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:43 pm

Whenever I hear or read about the EU, its always about Germany and France !

Is it my imagination, or are they running the whole show ?

I'm glad the UK didn't join the euro, its been a disaster for some countries.

Should the UK pull out of the EU, if there was a vote tomorrow, I vote yes !

Re: Britain, in or out?

Postby Games_Bond » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:06 am

I think... (drumroll)... it's a close call.
To de-generate this to the simplest principles, it is less influence v more autonomy.
The Euro-sceptics will argue that autonomy is more important, and we will take the influence, whether Europe likes it or not. In diplomatic relations there are two approaches: the carrot and the stick, and the UK knows how to use both. It is interesting not just in terms of what I have heard but what I have not heard; I really couldn't tell you if the rest of the EU wants us to stay in or not. But, like all superpowers threatened with the loss of an asset, they are using the stick and trying to tell us how bad things will be if we opt-out, rather than how good things will be if we opt-in. Us Scots are used to that - look at how the UK deals with Scottish Independence.
What swings it for me? The Common Agricultural Policy and Fishing Quotas are two big things that have severely affected industry in the UK (particularly Scotland), and people are sick and tired of having these disadvantages imposed upon them with apparently no say - all for shipping out a ridiculous amount of money to a "Government" that does nothing but bring in more laws designed to make them richer.
David Cameron has taken a flier on this and effectively put a referendum on his manifesto for the next General Election, by promising a referendum... IF he wins the next General Election. That ought to keep his core voters in line, but I think the left will see it for what it is. All this talk and we might not even get the referendum anyway!