## Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Jack Roper » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:52 pm

http://www.kintera.org/TR.asp?a=6eIEKQO ... 9NLLmJWIeK
The above link will get you to Amnesty International's petition to free the rock band Pussy Riot, which protested Vlad Putin, the latest criminal leader of Russia, in a political protest.
If you care about freedom of speech, please sign this petition.
Thanks.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Chris12 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:30 am

They got two years for this.
Honestly i dissagreed with what they did but this just seem disproportionate. If they needed to be punished for this a mere week in jail or a fine would have sufficed.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by the other one » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:48 pm

> Jack Roper wrote:If you care about freedom of speech, please sign this petition.
> Thanks.

Why is there a petition when in Russia some people get arrested? And why aren't there any petitions when in Israel or in the USA someone get arrested?
I agree that is not good, but if we disagree with that incident, then we MUST also disagree with all those incidents in Europe and the USA. And there are many more here, than this one in Russia.
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”
Bertrand Russell

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Jack Roper » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:30 pm

Perhaps you should join Amnesty International so you can see that they fight against injustice worldwide--not just in this instance.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by sarobah » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:32 pm

> the other one wrote:Why is there a petition when in Russia some people get arrested? And why aren't there any petitions when in Israel or in the USA someone get arrested? I agree that is not good, but if we disagree with that incident, then we MUST also disagree with all those incidents in Europe and the USA. And there are many more here, than this one in Russia.

Interesting. Please give some examples of the "many more" of these incidents that are happening in the US, Europe and Israel, and particularly those cases where no one has protested.
Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the soul within.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Kyle » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:49 pm

Their form of protests was just bizarre and stupid and they deserved a good fine and probably a few days in jail, but 2 years? That's completely ridiculous.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Jack Roper » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:54 am

These three women have already served a jail sentence awaiting their show trial. Here's an excellent article on their plight in "modern" day Russia.
August 17, 2012
The Pussy Riot Verdict by Masha Lipman in the New Yorker on-line
The trial of Pussy Riot ended as it began: as an egregious expression of contempt for law, justice, and common sense. The verdict—two years in prison camp for each of the three women, Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, Maria Alekhina, and Yekaterina Samutsevich, members of the punk band Pussy Riot, which had staged a brief anti-Putin performance in a cathedral, was a triumph of anti-modern obscurantism over young Russian modernity, the crushing power of the state over the individual, servility over independence.
In trials, like that of Pussy Riot, that are guided by powerful political interests, convictions are preordained, and the verdicts are generally identical to the initial indictment. In her tedious three-hour reading of the sentence, Judge Marina Syrova repeated the same absurd phrasings that were heard from the prosecution during the hearings. The Pussy Riot women, who are all between twenty-two and thirty, were convicted for violating “conceivable and inconceivable rules”; for “emphatically vulgar” and “deliberately provocative” gesturing; for “crossing themselves in a parodied way;” for their clothing, “inappropriate in a church”; and for other acts that “offended the feelings of religious believers.” The thirty or forty seconds they performed in an almost empty church were characterized as a premeditated act of criminal hooliganism, a grave violation of public order. Though Pussy Riot called their “punk prayer” “Mother of the Lord, Chase Putin Out,” and emphasized that the act was a political protest against the Patriarch campaigning for Putin in the Presidential race, the judge bluntly denied that there was any political inspiration, and ruled instead that religious hatred was the motive of Pussy Riot’s performance.
Asked about the Pussy Riot affair during his recent visit in London, Putin said, “I don’t think that they should be punished too harshly.” To the supporters of Pussy Riot, Putin’s statement, as well as the incredible outpouring of international support, provided some hope that the conviction would be suspended and that the three young women would be released. But, apparently, to Putin, two years of prison camp does not seem too harsh. In fact, the time of the actual incarceration may be even shortened after Pussy Riot’s lawyers appeal today’s verdict. Yet to those outraged by the crying unfairness and the cruel absurdity of the prosecution, the sentence is an insult.
In the closing section of the verdict, Judge Marina Syrova read “psychiatric-psychological examinations” of Nadia, Masha, and Katya, as the women are known. All three were found to suffer from a “mixed-personality disorder,” a condition that included different combinations of a “proactive approach to life,” “a drive for self-fulfillment,” “stubbornly defending their opinion,” “inflated self-esteem,” “inclination to opposition behavior,” and “propensity for protest reactions.”
It’s hard to think of a better definition of the Pussy Riot “crime.” These same psychological “abnormalities” were the targets of systematic eradication during the decades of Bolshevik terror and the following period of the Soviet police state: a Soviet man had to be quiescent, unquestioning, and submissive. The Communist state demonstrated (and used) force and dictated the rights and wrongs in ideology, ethics, artistic tastes, and moral values. Anyone showing independence of the mind, initiative, or individual striving, was seen as suspicious and politically unreliable. There were those who did so anyway; as David Remnick wrote recently, the women’s closing statements were part of a grand tradition of Russian dissidence. But over the decades, the overwhelming majority accepted their powerlessness vis-à-vis the state as a fact of life; those defying the oppression and showing any independence were regarded suspicious troublemakers and a threat to everyday life.
As I wrote in an earlier post, Putin’s Russia is not the Soviet Union. There is more freedom of expression, and the years of post-Communist development have produced a minority of new Russians who are not willing to live by the old norms of fear and quiescence. It is this minority that have joined the mass rallies in Moscow since December. They are the ones who gathered outside the courthouse today and chanted, “Free Pussy Riot!” and “Russia without Putin,” and erupted with “Pozor! Pozor!” (“Shame! Shame!”) each time the police took away yet another busload of protesters. In total, some fifty people were grabbed by the police outside the courthouse. Among them was Garry Kasparov, world chess champion turned political activist.
But they are still a minority: young Muscovites may rage and chant outside the courthouse, but over fifty per cent of Russians showed negative opinions of Pussy Riot in an August national poll; just over thirty per cent were non-negative—of these, most said they were indifferent, and only five per cent said they were sympathetic. Still, their sense of individual achievement, their solidarity, their readiness to defend their dignity despite the government’s pressure, present a growing challenge to Putin, who remains a proponent of the traditional Russian model of an omnipotent state and powerless people.
Facing this challenge, Putin increasingly relies on his more conservative, Soviet-style compatriots, and capitalizes on their habitual dependence on the state and their fears of the new.
The Russian Orthodox Church is Putin’s natural ally in this effort. The Church barely serves as a moral authority or source of spiritual solace. Of the seventy per cent Russians who identify themselves as Orthodox Christians, a significant part readily admit that they don’t believe in god; only a tiny number take part in parish life. The role of the Church is, instead, a pillar of Russian statehood and of a conservative order, professing many of the same virtues of quiescence favored in the Soviet era. The Church has been Putin’s loyal and reliable partner in the prosecution of Pussy Riot, as well as in his more general effort to consolidate his rule. The latter goal requires that non-conformist Russians be neutralized and alienated just as they are increasingly anxious to make a difference. And this means that the women of Pussy Riot are not the last victims.
Read Masha Lipman’s earlier posts about the Pussy Riot trail.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/n ... z23vfKMxnh

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by the other one » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:22 pm

> sarobah wrote:

> > the other one wrote:Why is there a petition when in Russia some people get arrested? And why aren't there any petitions when in Israel or in the USA someone get arrested? I agree that is not good, but if we disagree with that incident, then we MUST also disagree with all those incidents in Europe and the USA. And there are many more here, than this one in Russia.

> Interesting. Please give some examples of the "many more" of these incidents that are happening in the US, Europe and Israel, and particularly those cases where no one has protested.

How about Darrius Kennedy, who was shot in the last day in NY.
He was just smoking and then the police came. He took a knive OK, but then you mustn't shoot him with twelve shots. One shot for disarming is OK, but not twelve shots for killing him. Even this man should have a right to get in front of a court, if he has something done wrong.
Or Milton Hall, who was killed on the first july this year. He had been arguing with officers in a parking lot and got then shot by them.
Those in Russia made the bigger crime and get in front of a court only prison. Those in the USA got shot without any court.
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”
Bertrand Russell

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Kyle » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:44 pm

First you say the same thing is happening with people who are arrested in the US, then you say the police just shoot them so they don't get arrested. Are you sure you know where you're going with this?
We've got our own issues with the justice system in the US to be sure, but they're usually protested by somebody.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by sarobah » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:02 pm

> the other one wrote:How about Darrius Kennedy, who was shot in the last day in NY....Or Milton Hall, who was killed on the first july this year. He had been arguing with officers in a parking lot and got then shot by them.

I will never defend police shootings unconditionally. However, it’s interesting that both examples you chose involved police defending themselves against a disturbed person with a knife. In the second example, a video is available. Like you, I criticise the excessive number of shots fired, but I have never been in a situation like that so I cannot really judge. (In addition, if he had been killed with one or two shots, would you have been satisfied that it was justfiable?)
However, you seem to have abandoned what was the main point of your original post. In both cases, there have been protests and a lot of media coverage. The fact that you know about these incidents is evidence enough of that.
Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the soul within.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by drawscore » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:30 pm

Perhaps the Russian authorities should take a page from the "Bill of No Rights." The one that says "Freedom of speech is for everyone, not just those that agree with your point of view."
Drawscore

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by the other one » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:57 pm

> sarobah wrote:However, you seem to have abandoned what was the main point of your original post. In both cases, there have been protests and a lot of media coverage. The fact that you know about these incidents is evidence enough of that.

Have there been protests in the USA? I came to those incidents by accident and I've never heard of them before. And this is my main point. When something happens in a "bad-guy" state, then the media blows it up. And when something happens in "good-guy" state, then the media probaly don't even tell anything.
And I like here to criticize Amnesty, because they support mostly the "good-guy" state and they are mostly against the "bad-guy" state.
From Russia or Iran you hear almost every day something bad, that's the traditional "bad-guy" state. But from the USA you hear rarly something bad and that is in this comparison the "good-guy" state.
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”
Bertrand Russell

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Chris12 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:23 pm

Well your getting the news from a ''good guy state'' so its not all that surprising. the bad guy states would probably do this as well if they saw the chance(if they haven't already)

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by the other one » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:31 pm

> Chris12 wrote:Well your getting the news from a ''good guy state'' so its not all that surprising. the bad guy states would probably do this as well if they saw the chance(if they haven't already)

Nope, I listen only those news to amuse myself. The real news I get out of the internet.
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”
Bertrand Russell

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by drawscore » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:47 pm

Justice in Russia under Putin is not much different than justice under Gorbachev.
Drawscore

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Jack Roper » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:43 pm

Drawscore,
You are amazingly ignorant of history aren't you? Under Gorbachev the USSR experienced what can only be descibed as a burst of freedom, which, of course, scared most Russians who had lived through over a half-century of Totalitarianism. Attached is a very good analysis of Gorbachev's record, which is probably much more responsible for the downfall of Communism than anything that Ronald Reagan did in the 1980's.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/ ... irer-judge

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by drawscore » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:59 am

I'm really not surprised that you would defend the "justice" system under a communist dictator. Perhaps you think the justice systems of Cuba, China, Venezuela, and Iran are just fine, too.
Drawscore

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Chris12 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:05 am

You do know Gorbachev is pretty much the reason the sovjet union ended as peacefully as it did right?

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Jack Roper » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:11 am

Ssshhhh Chris...Drawscore hasn't been following any news except what Fox Propaganda --er, "News" puts out...don't disturb him. I bet he didn't even bother to read the link I put in my last post and if he did he won't acknowledge if it is accurate or not.
Last edited by Jack Roper on Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by drawscore » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:27 pm

Oh, I read the link, and I gave it the credibility it deserves.
Drawscore

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Kyle » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:22 pm

If I had a dollar every time Fox News was brought up when it had nothing to do with a political conversation, I'd have enough money to start my own news media outlet with my own biases.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Chris12 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:51 pm

> drawscore wrote:Oh, I read the link, and I gave it the credibility it deserves.
> Drawscore

No you didn't and even if you did read it....well i doubt you've read about Gorby in your history books.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by drawscore » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:31 pm

I try not to ever argue with idiots, as people watching often cannot tell the difference.
Drawscore

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Jack Roper » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:19 pm

If seeking the truth is tantamount to "arguing with idiots" then we have a real problem, Mr. Drawscore. A true dialogue might not lead to an agreement but it could lead to understanding, which is a preliminary ingredient of truth telling. Arguing, on the other hand, is for disputatious people, like you.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Chris12 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:44 am

> drawscore wrote:I try not to ever argue with idiots, as people watching often cannot tell the difference.
> Drawscore

Soooo, knowing what your talking about is being an idiot? your logic really is remarkable isn't it?

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by the other one » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:42 pm

> drawscore wrote:a communist dictator

What's that?
Communism and dictatorship is a contradiction. You can either have communism or a dictatorship, but not both.
Marx wrote about the dictatorship of the proletariat. It's important, that you mustn't understand this as a dictatorship, as we use that term normally .
But this mistake is made by many people, who have never dealt with his writings.
“Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.”
Bertrand Russell

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by drawscore » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:34 pm

Chris, I am not in the habit of being polite or courteous to some jackass that calls me a liar in a public forum. You can disagree with me all you want, and I can respect that, but you crossed the line. I've had discussions with Jack and Jason, and even though we vehemently disagree on many subjects and topics, neither of them has EVER said, insinuated, or implied that I was a liar. If you can't keep it within the bounds of propriety, then go crawl back under your rock.
Drawscore
Last edited by drawscore on Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by drawscore » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:46 pm

> the other one wrote:

> > drawscore wrote:a communist dictator

> What's that?
> Communism and dictatorship is a contradiction. You can either have communism or a dictatorship, but not both.
> Marx wrote about the dictatorship of the proletariat. It's important, that you mustn't understand this as a dictatorship, as we use that term normally .
> But this mistake is made by many people, who have never dealt with his writings.

Tell that to those that suffered in the gulags and "re-education camps" and/or died under Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Castro, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, and others who were, in fact, communist dictators of communist nations. Communism in theory and in practice, are two different things.
Drawscore

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by Chris12 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:54 am

> drawscore wrote:Chris, I am not in the habit of being polite or courteous to some jackass that calls me a liar in a public forum. You can disagree with me all you want, and I can respect that, but you crossed the line. I've had discussions with Jack and Jason, and even though we vehemently disagree on many subjects and topics, neither of them has EVER said, insinuated, or implied that I was a liar. If you can't keep it within the bounds of propriety, then go crawl back under your rock.
> Drawscore

Wow you calling me a jackass and preaching about about being civil? thats a laugh I also never said you where a liar but that you had zero idea what you where talking about. Anyone who opened even the most basic history book will see that if you put Gorbachev at the same level of the other comunist dictators. So nope, i din't call you a liar, just that your wrong.
Now saying i called you a liar is lying. so yeah, now i can simply call you a liar without ''crossing the line''. You know, because its a lie
So an apology would be at its place i think and if you don't well then you can just go crawl back under your rock.

### Re: Pussy Riot injustice

Post by drawscore » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:06 am

I said: "Oh, I read the link, and I gave it the credibility it deserves."
You said: "No you didn't and even if you did read it....well i doubt you've read about Gorby in your history books."
Tell me again that you did not call me a liar.
Drawscore