Pledge?

Postby dreadnaught3200 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:36 pm

Hey Everybody

So I found this video when I was browsing on Youtube, and when I looked at the comments, I realized just how contentious it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51kAw4OTlA0

This is Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore's "Pledge" video in support of President Obama. Now... for my own part, I found this video a little bit creepy. Don't get me wrong, I support pretty much everything all the various celebrities in this video "Pledged" to do. Battling Alzheimer's, ending world slavery, these are all good things.

What creeped me out about this video, was the reverential, almost messianic way that Obama is portrayed. I mean... he's got a lot of people excited this guy... But I certainly don't think that he's the savior of the American people. And I don't mean this to be a political debate, frankly I don't care where you stand politically, what I'm asking is: Is it right that a political leader be idolized this way in a democratic society?

Frankly, it was this sort of well intentioned yet fanatical devotion that led to the rise of Facism. Now PLEASE don't misquote me that I think Obama is going to become a Facist dictator. But I can't help but remember watching the news the night he was elected. There were people out partying in mobs, getting drunk, blocking roads and even flipping cop cars all yelling "Change!!!!". (Now just for the record I'm Canadian so I'm saying this from an outside perspective)

Actually that night I talked to a few of my friends down in the states who were supporters and I asked them what exactly the "change" meant. None of them could answer me. It kind of reminded me of Mussolini's slogan "Don't think! Believe!"

Once again, I'm not asking about his policies as President. If you support him because you've studied his position and agree with the changes he wants to make, then that's fine. I'd go so far as to say that this question could be applied to anyone extremely popular in a democracy.

But this almost blind, fanatical, devotion that seems to follow this guy.... I think it's dangerous.

Still, that's just me. What do you guys think?
There's a permanent tension in music isn't there? On one hand you have three chords, you know, four four and three chords. Then there's the people like me, who say "Well, why don't we add a fourth chord and put it in five four?" - Bill Bruford

Re: Pledge?

Postby Fesselfan » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:56 am

I tend to have similar thoughts about that issue...
I mean yes, he seems to be a good man and yes, he has some very ambitious plans. Not to mention that (IMHO) after GWB every change is to the positive. However, I tend to judge people by their deeds and not their words, and that is where Obama still has to show his colors.
Of course a lot of things can't be changed overnight, but so far not much has happened. I.e. Gitmo is still there.
He seems to really want change things to the better. Maybe that's an act? Maybe he is genuine, but gets bogged down by all processes? Maybe he will work a lot of it out in the first 4 years? I honestly can't tell. In some years maybe things are clearer.
What- as you say- he is not is a messias, and declaring him one will always do him wrong.

Cheers

FF
There are 10 kind of people in the world.
Those who understand binary numeral system, and those who don't.

Re: Pledge?

Postby Soul_Rebel » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:00 pm

It does all sees to stink like the fascism that arose in Germany in the year 1933. However, Obama is not at the reigns, he is merely a figurehead for a world banking organization, and the pursuits of these new policies are not for domination of the European continent, but instead of the world's human population. There will also be no world war, no massive-all-involving military conflict. No this war will be one on the citizenry of the world, and it will be an economic one.
However it draws many comparable parallels to the third reich's rise to power. A majority takes on a charismatic leader, consolidating in him/them the power to pull the hoods over our eyes, and use us as a vessel to establishing a fascist new world order.
Whips and chains may break my bones, but ropes and gags excite me!

The image in my avatar is the work of Vonnart

"Duct tape makes you smart." - Michael Weston

Re: Pledge?

Postby Fesselfan » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:29 pm

Ehm I think to compare this to the third reich is a little off track. There are many, many differences. i.e. Obama did not want any empowerement laws (=Reichsermächtigungsgesetz for the Nazis).
IMHO, GWB was more along that line..and a thing which really scared me is that he was voted into office *a second time*!
Don't get me wrong- I think it's highly important to watch the governments critically. But if you compare everything to the nazies, it does really not help. Instead, it *can* lead to the crimes of them being seen as less monstrous than they have been (with some of my family having jewish roots..and been living in Germany for ages...I can tell).

As a side note...Hitlers goal was not the domination of all Europe. In fact, at the beginning he saw the western Europe nations (i.e. England, France etc) as valuable nations. Hitlers main concept, terretorically speaking, was to conquer "living space for the German people in the east". In his world view, in the West lived civilized people and in the East barbarians. Many historicans this day agree that a war with France and England (and later the US) was not what he wanted. Keep in mind- he first annexed Austria and the Tchech, without anybody doing anything besides complaining. Only the later invasion of Poland triggered the alliances which turned this into what we now know as world war 2.

Sorry for the OT :)

Cheers

FF
There are 10 kind of people in the world.
Those who understand binary numeral system, and those who don't.

Re: Pledge?

Postby Soul_Rebel » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:19 pm

I see your need for pointing out the contrasting components, however, I see a highly controlled, highly aristocratic senate, and the passing of the patriot acts as little different than the enabling act which allowed a small group take authority over so many people. With all due respect to your ancestor's troubles, there is little keeping the rulers of the west from disobeying natural human law.
Whips and chains may break my bones, but ropes and gags excite me!

The image in my avatar is the work of Vonnart

"Duct tape makes you smart." - Michael Weston

Re: Pledge?

Postby Fesselfan » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:38 pm

The senate of the weimar republic (nazi germanies precedessor) was anything but highly controlled. In fact, it was highly splintered. On average, there were 14 political parties in the parlament, which often enough didn't work together. During the big world economic crisis, this almost paralyzed them- that's one reason why a single man, promising solutions and (seemingly) with a knack of really archiving them, rose to power.
A very important second fact was- as some back then called it- the "shame of versailles". At the end of WW1, Germany had to sign a peace contract with very stiff conditions- i.e. huge payments to the victors, planes were disallowed and so on. Even outside Germany many people feared back then (1919) that this would sooner or later lead into another war- after all, if you humilate your former enemy beyond belief, he will sooner or later try to strike back.

What one should not entirely forget about Hitler is that- beyond being all that what we know- he (at least in his earlier years) was an opportunist. Back when he was still working as a painter (he painted greeting cards in vienna) he worked together with many jewish people, without any problems or hints of antisemitism. One theory claims that he was not antisemitic himself at start, but rather took a latent mood in the populace (antisemitism has been there in many countries for ages) to unite the people.
In that regard I see one of the most fearfull parallels between the third reich and US policies- under GWB, the moslems were made the common enemies, under Hitler the jews. That's populists 101: provide the people with someone who's guilty, and they don't focus on their (and your) own mistakes.

there is little keeping the rulers of the west from disobeying natural human law

However with this, you are absolutely correct. As one US statesman once said..."the price of freedom is eternal vigilance". And that does NOT mean another surveillance act, cutting peoples freedoms...

Cheers

FF
There are 10 kind of people in the world.
Those who understand binary numeral system, and those who don't.

Re: Pledge?

Postby sarobah » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:46 pm

The real problem with all political systems is that they are polarizing. It’s human nature that we condense and simplify complex issues into good versus evil. We demonize the “bad guys” and sanctify the “good guys”.
The fact is that George W Bush is not the devil and Obama is not a saint (and vice versa). There’s no evidence that Bush specifically targeted Muslims (e.g. Saudi Arabia has remained a US ally) or that Obama will fundamentally change American society (for the better or the worst). The US did not become a police state under Bush (otherwise how did Obama get elected?) and it won’t under Obama (why would he bother? he’s going to win in 2012 by a landslide).
To sum up the GWB presidency, it’s an old adage that you shouldn’t attribute to malice what can best be explained by stupidity. As for Obama, we could at least wait until he does something before awarding him the Nobel Prize (how utterly patronizing that was)!
Words, like Nature, half reveal and half conceal the soul within.

Re: Pledge?

Postby dreadnaught3200 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:13 pm

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed this hehe

One thing that I've been taking comfort in though, is one condition that allowed the rise of opportunistic leaders like Hitler and Mussolini was serious economic and political turmoil. As Fesselfan pointed out, Germany's Weimar Republic was highly unstable, their was galloping inflation and most of the people still believed in the "stab in the back" notion. While at the same time Italy was as unstable and backward as it had ever been, and the majority of the population were scared stiff of communist infiltration. Introduce a couple of brilliant political minds like Hitler and Mussolini to the mix and you end up with authoritarian states.

So, yes the US is currently in a slump economically and the democratic system is a bit shakier than usual, but these certainly are not the right historical conditions that could lead to the rise of a dictator. Though if they were, Obama would make an excellent candidate.

Though Fesselfan I couldn't help but wonder about one thing, I've read other works on Hitler's psychology and they all claimed that Hitler's anti-semitism was developed very early on, possibly due to beatings by his father who was of Jewish ancestry. Plus, in his suicide letter he blamed his failure solely on the Jews. So I can't help but think that his anti-semitism must have been deeply rooted.


It's interesting how History can be applied to current events, if only people paid more attention in History class!


P.S Sarobah I love that addage!
There's a permanent tension in music isn't there? On one hand you have three chords, you know, four four and three chords. Then there's the people like me, who say "Well, why don't we add a fourth chord and put it in five four?" - Bill Bruford

Re: Pledge?

Postby Soul_Rebel » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:04 pm

I'm not drawing sides, and i'm not inferring that an administration is at the head of things, it is, instead, a group of banking and service organizations who employ the two party system to create a cloak of a democracy, yet essentially those holding the leash, pulling the strings, and swaying opinion, are these large banking institutions. They hold a gun to senate policy making by economically threatening the nation, own each one of us through our government's debt, and control most large measures of foreign policy post wwII era.

I'm not inferring that we are in as an unstable state as the democratic post WW-I germany, I am relating to the opportunist-fascist takeover, one that did no appear quite so obvious in the eyes of German people. The corporations call the shots like before, and we are currently being fooled, just like before.

As for awarding obama, the N1H1 flu outbreak has allotted him to enact emergency powers. Another meager set of un-backed reasoning affording to greater power consolidation and more direct control.

It's not black and white- far from it. Except when it comes down to the intentions of these people. There are the self-serving gears, which work so well for foul purposes, and then the limited group of super-moral creatures, who can be distinguished with the name "human," for they actually practice true democracy, and serve the people.
Whips and chains may break my bones, but ropes and gags excite me!

The image in my avatar is the work of Vonnart

"Duct tape makes you smart." - Michael Weston

Re: Pledge?

Postby dreadnaught3200 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:09 pm

Oh yeah, I saw a documentary about that last week. It was pretty good. "Fall of the Republic" I think it was called. Though for my own part I'm not sure how much I buy it. Part of the problem is that I'm Canadian and lets face it, who'd bother trying to take us over? But I'm not sure who is actually pulling the strings in the White House these days. It's clear that the Federal Reserve is a joke and badly in need of a serious audit, and I think the fact that the left completely blew Ron Paul's proposed audit out of the sky, should be a little bit concerning.

However I'm not convinced that there's a secret society of high level bankers who are literally trying to take over the world. (Which might sound like hyperbole, but that's what it boils down to) That's quite the statement. I know a lot of people cite the bailouts as a kind of large scale corporate heist, but the fact of the matter is, is that those idiotic bailouts were given to those companies because they were on the verge of collapse, and these companies have since continued to bleed money jobs after receiving them. It's like trying to bail water out of Titanic with a spoon, it just doesn't work. Though I see that as a result of bad economic planning rather than a large scale conspiracy.

Moreover the bailouts that were handed over to these companies were conditional. Meaning it was loan, rather than a gift. Honestly I don't think that the Government is ever going to recall the money, but if they did, these companies (Most of whom are in worse shape than they were a few months ago, check the rising rate of unemployment if you don't believe me) would topple like a house of cards in a tornado. A friend of mine likened it to giving someone a pace maker but keeping it on a chain so you yank it back out again. Which would not serve anyone, the Government, the American people, or the executives who are the supposed villains here.

In the end I think it all boils down to this: As long as the executives are still in business and making money, they're happy. As far as the Government goes, I think all the lies, propaganda, and general BS that's been flying around lately (From both parties) is due to plain old corruption. I mean, Obama hasn't delivered on really any of his campaign promises, and is obviously trying to shut down all those who oppose him, but since when have politicians not been liars?

As long as there have been Governments, there has been corruption. And the Obama administration is no exception.
There's a permanent tension in music isn't there? On one hand you have three chords, you know, four four and three chords. Then there's the people like me, who say "Well, why don't we add a fourth chord and put it in five four?" - Bill Bruford

Re: Pledge?

Postby crazycanadian » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:55 pm

I'm just throwing my two cents in here.

The thing which a lot of Americans don`t realize, and for that matter a lot of the other people in teh world don`t realize is that America is an empire. being an empire is not a bad thing though, despite how its generally portrayed in the media. The world we live in does require a country to lead, or drag, us through troubling times, which is what the US has done.
Beofre the US it was the British, Spanish, and Romans. EAch one of these great nations led the world during their era and then passed ont eh mantle of imerpial leadership to the next. What a lot of people don`t get when they criticize the US for intervening in Iraq, or NATO in Afghanistan is that there are certain times when something just has to be done, and the only one who can do it is the one who can survive being criticized.

(Its a little easier for me to talk about this because I`m canadian. :), just in case you didn`t get that from my name, lol)

Cheers,