European Illegal Immigration

Postby Oohmynameisblue » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:47 pm

So, you probably know about the illegal immigrant controversy in Europe.

An excessive number of illegal immigrants are coming from the Middle East to Europe for what seems to be 'a better life'.

I know there's a couple of topics up about illegal immigration but I want to know who's side you're on.

According to this site, something I find interesting is that even though numbers are rising dramatically, more people think they will strengthen the USA, apparently, but the number that say they won't have stayed pretty much the same.

BUT in the UK, things are different. The majority of people want something done. Over half of people said said tension between immigrants and people born in Britain caused the most division nationally, were worried about the level of immigration into the UK. "70% thought that immigration rules governing migration from Europe weren’t strict enough, while 73% thought immigration rules from outside the EU weren’t tough enough." In July 2014 54% of respondents said that immigration and asylum was the ‘most important issue facing the country at this time.’ This has probably risen even further now.

But the fact still remains that just over a third of people think immigrants are a positive thing. What do you guys think? Specifically targeting Western Europe, but Americans can give their views as well.

By the way, my view is that immigrants are a problem and that they are now becoming a threat, such as endangering lorry drivers' safety.

Thank you!

Owen

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby wataru14 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:52 pm

The problem isn't immigration itself. The problem is immigration where the immigrants are immediately treated like outsiders and parasites. Where they are shunted off into ghettos where they barely interact with the native population and become insular. They do not assimilate into the local population after many generations (it generally takes a generation or two before assimilation happens). In cases where immigrants are accepted, welcomed, and integrated into society, things work a lot better.

A lot of it stems form "Yuck! Icky dirty brown people. Shove them into this poor neighborhood away from me." And people wonder why there's anger and resentment.

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby Oohmynameisblue » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:59 pm

wataru14 wrote:The problem isn't immigration itself. The problem is immigration where the immigrants are immediately treated like outsiders and parasites. Where they are shunted off into ghettos where they barely interact with the native population and become insular. They do not assimilate into the local population after many generations (it generally takes a generation or two before assimilation happens). In cases where immigrants are accepted, welcomed, and integrated into society, things work a lot better.

A lot of it stems form "Yuck! Icky dirty brown people. Shove them into this poor neighborhood away from me." And people wonder why there's anger and resentment.

So you're for 'immigrants are good when accepted as society'. Which is fine. And there are problems with racism, but not only racism. Of course, there are many, many immigrants who come to get good jobs and earn money and hip hip hooray, but maybe I have been influenced by the newspapers when I say that there SEEMS to be a higher crime rate on average with immigrants than 'natives'. What annoys me most is when they come - admittedly, it's a very small proportion - and just make people's lives hell.

Anyway, you are probably more experienced than me, being 24 years older than me and all. :)

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby xtc » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:06 pm

Please beware of quoting statistics without stating their source.
If they were from the ONS, they are almost certainly independent and reliable.
If, on the other hand they are self selected respondents to a poll in, say "The Daily Hate", they are almost certainly biased and will not have been the outcome of a valid, random stratified sample of the popuation.
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby Chris12 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:24 pm

Its probably the greatest danger facing Europe at the moment. Not so much because of the refugees themselves but because the populist wolves can use them to win the election and then have the troubled union collapse like a house of cards. And in the middle of multiple dire crisis' and as we already are the sick man of the world its probably enough to neck the geopolitical situation of Europe for good.
I'l admit that I blame the refugees for it. Not the Syrians or Iraquans who are fleeing from war and must be helped but all the others, the ones who just want better circumstances and now flood a Europe that's already facing multiple crises. Bad, bad timing and in much to large numbers to deal with. And they don't seem to understand that Europe doesn't have the means of dealing with them.


The problem isn't immigration itself. The problem is immigration where the immigrants are immediately treated like outsiders and parasites. Where they are shunted off into ghettos where they barely interact with the native population and become insular. They do not assimilate into the local population after many generations (it generally takes a generation or two before assimilation happens). In cases where immigrants are accepted, welcomed, and integrated into society, things work a lot better.

A lot of it stems form "Yuck! Icky dirty brown people. Shove them into this poor neighborhood away from me." And people wonder why there's anger and resentment.


Actually I think the problematic integration is in very large parts their own doing and that failing is what attracts the ire of the locals, rather then the other way around. They aren't forced into Ghettos but chose to largely stay in neighborhoods of their own kind which is severely hampering the integration. A great number of them withdraw from their new societies, don't learn the langues and seem to have a low esteem of western value's This is a chicken and egg story but I do believe the later strengthens the former rather then the other way around. If they integrated properly in larger numbers most people having a low opinion of immigrants will lack the reason to do so.
The problems of poor interrogations are a Muslim problem. No other culture is having such a hard time to adjust and so many failures to do so. I don't recall ever hearing about a problem about east Asian or Indian immigrants and colonial history makes European nations have (admittingly smaller) minorities from those regions to...which is something easy to forget as they do integrate properly.

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby Oohmynameisblue » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:17 am

xtc wrote:Please beware of quoting statistics without stating their source.
If they were from the ONS, they are almost certainly independent and reliable.
If, on the other hand they are self selected respondents to a poll in, say "The Daily Hate", they are almost certainly biased and will not have been the outcome of a valid, random stratified sample of the popuation.

The Office for National Statistics 2015 December review or something. I assume that is ONS.

Also, is The Daily Hate a reference to the Daily Mail? :quirk:

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby Oohmynameisblue » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:24 am

Oohmynameisblue wrote:
xtc wrote:Please beware of quoting statistics without stating their source.
If they were from the ONS, they are almost certainly independent and reliable.
If, on the other hand they are self selected respondents to a poll in, say "The Daily Hate", they are almost certainly biased and will not have been the outcome of a valid, random stratified sample of the popuation.

The Office for National Statistics 2015 December review or something. I assume that is ONS.

Also, is The Daily Hate a reference to the Daily Mail? :quirk:

Also, I took a couple from what seems to be 'UKpollingreport.co.uk', which looks like a small poll specific website run by YouGov. I trust YouGov and so I trusted that website too.

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby Oohmynameisblue » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:29 am

Chris12 wrote:Its probably the greatest danger facing Europe at the moment. Not so much because of the refugees themselves but because the populist wolves can use them to win the election and then have the troubled union collapse like a house of cards. And in the middle of multiple dire crisis' and as we already are the sick man of the world its probably enough to neck the geopolitical situation of Europe for good.
I'l admit that I blame the refugees for it. Not the Syrians or Iraquans who are fleeing from war and must be helped but all the others, the ones who just want better circumstances and now flood a Europe that's already facing multiple crises. Bad, bad timing and in much to large numbers to deal with. And they don't seem to understand that Europe doesn't have the means of dealing with them.


The problem isn't immigration itself. The problem is immigration where the immigrants are immediately treated like outsiders and parasites. Where they are shunted off into ghettos where they barely interact with the native population and become insular. They do not assimilate into the local population after many generations (it generally takes a generation or two before assimilation happens). In cases where immigrants are accepted, welcomed, and integrated into society, things work a lot better.

A lot of it stems form "Yuck! Icky dirty brown people. Shove them into this poor neighborhood away from me." And people wonder why there's anger and resentment.


Actually I think the problematic integration is in very large parts their own doing and that failing is what attracts the ire of the locals, rather then the other way around. They aren't forced into Ghettos but chose to largely stay in neighborhoods of their own kind which is severely hampering the integration. A great number of them withdraw from their new societies, don't learn the langues and seem to have a low esteem of western value's This is a chicken and egg story but I do believe the later strengthens the former rather then the other way around. If they integrated properly in larger numbers most people having a low opinion of immigrants will lack the reason to do so.
The problems of poor interrogations are a Muslim problem. No other culture is having such a hard time to adjust and so many failures to do so. I don't recall ever hearing about a problem about east Asian or Indian immigrants and colonial history makes European nations have (admittingly smaller) minorities from those regions to...which is something easy to forget as they do integrate properly.


The opinion that it is the biggest problem at the moment is definitely what people seem to think.

On another note, I think it is quite nice that we've got different views rather than everybody agreeing on the same thing. It would be very boring otherwise.

Have you heard about extra houses directly under railway lines are being built?! Guess why? Immigration.

What annoys me the most is people who can't be bothered to learn the language and just speak Pakistani or Arabic or whatever. In my class at school over half of everybody is from Asia. It evens out over the rest of the school but white males (like me) are in the minority.

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby Oohmynameisblue » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:01 am

Oohmynameisblue wrote:
Chris12 wrote:Its probably the greatest danger facing Europe at the moment. Not so much because of the refugees themselves but because the populist wolves can use them to win the election and then have the troubled union collapse like a house of cards. And in the middle of multiple dire crisis' and as we already are the sick man of the world its probably enough to neck the geopolitical situation of Europe for good.
I'l admit that I blame the refugees for it. Not the Syrians or Iraquans who are fleeing from war and must be helped but all the others, the ones who just want better circumstances and now flood a Europe that's already facing multiple crises. Bad, bad timing and in much to large numbers to deal with. And they don't seem to understand that Europe doesn't have the means of dealing with them.


The problem isn't immigration itself. The problem is immigration where the immigrants are immediately treated like outsiders and parasites. Where they are shunted off into ghettos where they barely interact with the native population and become insular. They do not assimilate into the local population after many generations (it generally takes a generation or two before assimilation happens). In cases where immigrants are accepted, welcomed, and integrated into society, things work a lot better.

A lot of it stems form "Yuck! Icky dirty brown people. Shove them into this poor neighborhood away from me." And people wonder why there's anger and resentment.


Actually I think the problematic integration is in very large parts their own doing and that failing is what attracts the ire of the locals, rather then the other way around. They aren't forced into Ghettos but chose to largely stay in neighborhoods of their own kind which is severely hampering the integration. A great number of them withdraw from their new societies, don't learn the langues and seem to have a low esteem of western value's This is a chicken and egg story but I do believe the later strengthens the former rather then the other way around. If they integrated properly in larger numbers most people having a low opinion of immigrants will lack the reason to do so.
The problems of poor interrogations are a Muslim problem. No other culture is having such a hard time to adjust and so many failures to do so. I don't recall ever hearing about a problem about east Asian or Indian immigrants and colonial history makes European nations have (admittingly smaller) minorities from those regions to...which is something easy to forget as they do integrate properly.


The opinion that it is the biggest problem at the moment is definitely what people seem to think.

On another note, I think it is quite nice that we've got different views rather than everybody agreeing on the same thing. It would be very boring otherwise.

Have you heard about extra houses directly under railway lines are being built?! Guess why? Immigration.

What annoys me the most is people who can't be bothered to learn the language and just speak Pakistani or Arabic or whatever. In my class at school over half of everybody is from Asia. It evens out over the rest of the school but white males (like me) are in the minority.

Let me just clarify I have absolutely no problem with the people in my class. I know that seems a bit stupid since I don't like refugees but it is probably because I have gotten to know them.

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby Oohmynameisblue » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:04 pm

I am talking way too much on this forum so let me just talk a little more haha.

This kind of links in to Brexit with people saying if we leave we will get more control over our borders and then David Cameron and his bunch of cronies going 'we already have control' and now they are allegedly using taxpayers money to fund a Brin, as I call it, pamphlet, which is just dumb and forcing opinions on people.

I still don't think it would be right if they made a Brexit pamphlet either. People should have a 50/50 impartial pamphlet if any but I don't think people at the moment are well informed enough, to be honest.

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby 31acujoker » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:54 am

I have been influenced by the newspapers when I say that there SEEMS to be a higher crime rate on average with immigrants than 'natives'.


Oh my sweet summer child, you'd get more truth out of a convicted counterfeiter than you ever will from a newspaper.
"A thing is not beautiful because it lasts"
- The Vision

Re: European Illegal Immigration

Postby Chapelier Fou/ Mad Hatter » Sat May 21, 2016 1:20 pm

Well if we want to speak about imigration and more precisely about Illegal imigration, i will take an France as an example ( sorry my source is in french http://www.defenseurdesdroits.fr/sites/ ... angers.pdf ).
I believe we have to know how some migrants gained the adjectives of "illegal", the first step is to draw a line between "good" and "bad" immigrants, then to cast them away from the natives by reducing the number of cases to study in the time, make it hard for the migrant to ask asylum to use its cicvil rights, make it hard to seek legaly a job so that they will be able to provide themselves a decent life, shrinking their acess to medical safety. A way to inhibite the native empathy. Let begin the show Image
I am a native frenchspeaker not an englishspeaker, so i might make some huge mistakes in grammar. Sorry