Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Chris12 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:39 am

It seems they plan to build a Mosque close to the ground where the WTC once stood.

I believe that on 11 september people are going to protest against the construction of the Mosque including the dutch politician Geert Wilders.
I'm in no way a fan of Wilders and i have nothing against the Islam but building a Mosque on the place where thousands where killed ''in the name of the Islam'' just seems wrong and an insult to the family's of those that died.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:16 pm

I am ambivalent. On the one hand, the majority of Moslems did not sanction the events of 9-11 - at least not openly - in this country, and to deny honest Muslims the right to build a temple there (or anywhere) smacks of the same kind of racism as failing all Japanese Americans after the bombing of Pearl Harbor regardless of whether there was any evidence of their complicity or not (and usually there was not).
On the other hand, both islamic extremists and Republican warhawks and hate mongers will attempt to use this event in some way to make things difficult for everyone else involved. Any Moslems attempting to worship at such a temple would probably be at increased risk of harassment or violence from so-called 'decent' Christian people who oppose religious extremists (completely failing to see the sheer irony of this situation as they do so). People will declare such a temple might be used for terrorist infiltration, even though this is actually no more likely than at any other temple.
Thanks to the terrorists, it can't be very easy to be a Moslem in the USA these days. Awkward situations and stupid decisions like this definitely do not help matters.
Unfortunately all believers of Islam are being tarred with the same brush as the terrorists; people cannot tell the difference and automatically assume the worst about any Moslem they see. Especially recent immigrants, as they usually stand out in a crowd because of the way they dress (the women especially) and talk. Of course, recent immigrants have always had this problem but it's worse than ever now.
Any way you look at it, the whole thing sucks. I wonder whose stupid idea it was to create this political mess?
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Wedgieboy14 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:20 am

I don't have anything against it but it is extremely tactless to build a mosque on a place where a moslim group slammed a plane into a building.

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:50 am

Wedgieboy14 wrote:I don't have anything against it but it is extremely tactless to build a mosque on a place where a moslim group slammed a plane into a building.


Yes. More briefly and aptly put than what I was trying to say. Thank you. :big: (Where were you when I needed you? :mrgreen: )
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Wedgieboy14 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:54 am

Well this is the first time I enter the jump in the fire so I was probably somewhere else before :big:

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Kyle » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:47 pm

How close is this really? I keep hearing "close" but are we talking across the street, 3 streets away, or what?

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:51 pm

Kyle wrote:How close is this really? I keep hearing "close" but are we talking across the street, 3 streets away, or what?

TWO blocks.
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Kyle » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:54 pm

That is pretty close. On one hand I'd like to think we could let it go and it would be okay to let them build there, but why exactly do they want land so close to this site to build a mosque on anyway?

I have to admit I'm surprised, I didn't figure there was that much free land available in Manhattan.

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:58 pm

Kyle wrote:That is pretty close. On one hand I'd like to think we could let it go and it would be okay to let them build there, but why exactly do they want land so close to this site to build a mosque on anyway?

I have to admit I'm surprised, I didn't figure there was that much free land available in Manhattan.


I think the rationale was supposed to be Islamic support forAmerics at a time of tragedy they themselves were unfairly blamed for, but certain conservative assholes are throwing the peace gesture back in their faces. I am not certain of this however; there seems to be a lot of speculation about the motivations.
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby swamidfs » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:26 am

Hmmm .... no nativity set up at city hall ... no ten commandments in a court room ..... no prayer in school .... but a Mosque near ground zero as the hallmark of religious rights??????
Double standard?

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:12 pm

swamidfs wrote:Hmmm .... no nativity set up at city hall ... no ten commandments in a court room ..... no prayer in school .... but a Mosque near ground zero as the hallmark of religious rights??????
Double standard?

Definitely! But it works both ways. Example:
Piss Christ artwork; no reaction. Write a book about Christ being gay, no reaction.
Bring a pig to a temple - Oh, watch out for the fallout!! We're being insensitive and intolerant!! Draw a picture (innocuous) of Mohammed - It's Jihad time!!!
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Nuclearo » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:23 pm

Okay, bringing a pig into a temple is kind of more than that. It's one thing to draw and write commedy (which I've seen little retaliation from religios jews about) and it's something else when you go ahead and break a law of a religion in its temples. Just like you wouldn't wear a KKK outfit to a black rights rally or burn a cross inside a church, you should respect religions in their places of worship.
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:37 pm

Nuclearo wrote:Okay, bringing a pig into a temple is kind of more than that. It's one thing to draw and write commedy (which I've seen little retaliation from religios jews about) and it's something else when you go ahead and break a law of a religion in its temples. Just like you wouldn't wear a KKK outfit to a black rights rally or burn a cross inside a church, you should respect religions in their places of worship.

I agree with that completely Nuclearo, nor would I ever advocate doing any of these examples we cited. The point I was trying to make is that people are often hypocritical when it comes to respecting other peoples' religion. There is so much fuss made about respecting the rights of Moslems and no fuss at all when they in turn totally disrespect Christian (or Jewish) beliefs. Does that seem fair to you?
I don't think it's a stereotype to say that as a whole, worldwide, Moslems are the most religiously intolerant people in the world - also the strictest (look at the way they treat women for instance).
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby haloguy » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:30 am

I think that we should be allowed to practice our religious beliefs, but having a mosque right where attacks happened by people saying that it is because their religion demands it is just like a punch in the face to most americans

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:52 am

haloguy wrote:I think that we should be allowed to practice our religious beliefs, but having a mosque right where attacks happened by people saying that it is because their religion demands it is just like a punch in the face to most americans


The main problem with that though is that it is the same is blaming ALL Moslems for the actions of a few. The people who want to build the mosque did not (as far as anyone knows) have anything to do with the events of 9-11, and what their personal opinions of it were are the business only of the thought police. It is not like the mosque is going to to be right AT where the WTC was; it is about two blocks away. To blame all Moslems and treat them as second class citizens is as unfair to them as it was to blacks to blam all them for the race riots of the 1960's or to incarcerate all Japanese Americans during WWII regardless of whether they were implicated in Pearl Harbor or not (especially as no German Americans were incarcerated unless they actually were accused of a crime they commited themseves). Jews have suffered persecution through the centuries for the crucifixion fo Christ. IMHO treating all Moslems like potential terrorists for 9-11 is wrong and it always will be. At the least there should always be a presumption of innocence until they themselves indicate otherwise, or Society will beguin to fall apart completely from mutual mistrust.
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby markusthe1st » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:59 pm

I wonder just how close a church resides to the Oklahoma City bombing sight that Timothy McVeigh bombed? No one talks about it, but it's extremist religion gone bonkers, yet there only seems to be complaints about new Islam churches. Many Muslims died in the WTC bombing, so what, their grieving doesn't matter?

Talk about a double standard!
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Kyle » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:24 pm

Might want to check the "facts" behind your argument there. Timothy McVeigh himself professed different beliefs than what typical Christians would (in fact he was reported to be agnostic by many though as far as I'm aware that was never truly confirmed), and at any rate his terrorist attack wasn't carried out specifically due to his religious beliefs. It's not a double standard, the two (religion and his attack) have next to nothing to do with one another, if anything, in McVeigh's case.

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:38 pm

Even if it were, would have been fair to blame everyone of the same religious affiliation as he was for his actions? I think not. Otherwise all Protestents would be accountable for the actions of the Ku Klux Klan and the John Birch Society! And I sure as anything don't want to be lumped in th same category with those characters!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby markusthe1st » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:46 pm

Regardless of motive - Mcveigh was driven by right-wing ideology and his belief that the US govt. had overstepped their "rights' in the handling of the Waco and Ruby Ridge incidents - and the 911 terrorists were motivated by the US govt. involvement with Israel and other issues around the world that BOTH parties made their act of terrorism an act AGAINST the US govt. It was not an attack on or for Christianity - it was an attack on the condemnation of perceived US govt. actions.

The results were destruction in both cases. Many innocent lives gone, for nothing. Except now, certain people in the media are trying to make something out of nothing. Either there is freedom of religion in the US or there is not. Without that freedom, we might as well be Saudi Arabia.
Walk the mile first... then have the fun!

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Kyle » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:49 pm

No, Jason, which is why I don't understand the general hatred of Muslims. But there is one difference in the two cases mentioned above: Islam WAS the driving force behind the Sept. 11 attacks. I do not agree with judging all Muslims for that, but it is undeniable. You can't say McVeigh was motivated by Christianity, in fact, all evidence points to the contrary. Both were terrorist attacks that killed a lot of innocent people. Beyond that there isn't a lot they have in common.

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Kyle » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:50 pm

markusthe1st wrote:Regardless of motive - Mcveigh was driven by right-wing ideology and his belief that the US govt. had overstepped their "rights' in the handling of the Waco and Ruby Ridge incidents - and the 911 terrorists were motivated by the US govt. involvement with Israel and other issues around the world that BOTH parties made their act of terrorism an act AGAINST the US govt. It was not an attack on or for Christianity - it was an attack on the condemnation of perceived US govt. actions.

The results were destruction in both cases. Many innocent lives gone, for nothing. Except now, certain people in the media are trying to make something out of nothing. Either there is freedom of religion in the US or there is not. Without that freedom, we might as well be Saudi Arabia.


So exactly how did any of this factor into your comments about churches and Timothy McVeigh?

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:02 pm

Kyle wrote:No, Jason, which is why I don't understand the general hatred of Muslims. But there is one difference in the two cases mentioned above: Islam WAS the driving force behind the Sept. 11 attacks. I do not agree with judging all Muslims for that, but it is undeniable. You can't say McVeigh was motivated by Christianity, in fact, all evidence points to the contrary. Both were terrorist attacks that killed a lot of innocent people. Beyond that there isn't a lot they have in common.

I didn't say McVeigh WAS motivated by religion; I was making a Whgat If scenario.
My point is that no one should be held accountable for another person's actions. I don't care vthat the 9-11 terrorists did it for Islam; the only people who should be punbished for that were the terrorists themeslves (who died immmediately anyway) and the bastards who helped them, encouraged them, and sent them here. Instead, we're ALL being punished for it with the Irag and Afghanistan wars, the crap-out of the ecomnomy that resulted, Homeland Security, invasive searches at airports, loss of various oter freedoms, suspicion and hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims, this whole mosqur at Ground Zero bullshit, and a whole lot more.
If I had a time machine, I'd migrate back to the simpler, happier life styles of the 1950's (at least if you were white) when all you had to worry about was a World War III that never took place and no one ever heard of Aids, crack, global warming, or energy shortages. The 21st century sounded like it'd be a wondrous time when I was a kid. Now I sometimes wished I'd died before it ever arrived!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby markusthe1st » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:49 pm

Reread my post - my argument stands - I didn't accuse McVeigh of anything religious, just made mention that extreme views are responsible here - so why punish a religion?
Walk the mile first... then have the fun!

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:03 pm

markusthe1st wrote: Without that freedom, we might as well be Saudi Arabia.

I'll do one further... without that freedom, we might as well be serfs living in the Dark Ages!
Because if this keeps up, we'll all be returning to those 'good old days' if the Republican fatcats continue to have their way!!! They'll be the high-iving nobels and the rest of us will be sharecroppers with no real freedoms, resources, or rights of our own.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Kyle » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:06 pm

markusthe1st wrote:Reread my post - my argument stands - I didn't accuse McVeigh of anything religious, just made mention that extreme views are responsible here - so why punish a religion?


To bring churches into it, your argument made absolutely no sense unless you were either saying McVeigh committed his act of terrorism due to Christian beliefs or the Sept. 11 hijackers didn't commit their acts of terrorism due to extreme Muslim beliefs. That's the only way having a church anywhere near the site of the government building that was destroyed in Oklahoma City but opposing building a mosque, or community center, or whatever it actually is in New York that's being built is a double standard.

I'm not about punishing the Muslims. Legally they definitely have the right to build their building where they want it. I do think perhaps they should take into account the feelings of the people who oppose it but am not going to say "they can't build it there." But my whole point was your comment made absolutely no sense whatsoever. There is no double standard because the two terrorist attacks have little in common besides, well, being terrorist attacks.

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Kyle » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:07 pm

Jason Toddman wrote:
Kyle wrote:No, Jason, which is why I don't understand the general hatred of Muslims. But there is one difference in the two cases mentioned above: Islam WAS the driving force behind the Sept. 11 attacks. I do not agree with judging all Muslims for that, but it is undeniable. You can't say McVeigh was motivated by Christianity, in fact, all evidence points to the contrary. Both were terrorist attacks that killed a lot of innocent people. Beyond that there isn't a lot they have in common.

I didn't say McVeigh WAS motivated by religion; I was making a Whgat If scenario.
My point is that no one should be held accountable for another person's actions. I don't care vthat the 9-11 terrorists did it for Islam; the only people who should be punbished for that were the terrorists themeslves (who died immmediately anyway) and the bastards who helped them, encouraged them, and sent them here. Instead, we're ALL being punished for it with the Irag and Afghanistan wars, the crap-out of the ecomnomy that resulted, Homeland Security, invasive searches at airports, loss of various oter freedoms, suspicion and hatred between Muslims and non-Muslims, this whole mosqur at Ground Zero bullshit, and a whole lot more.
If I had a time machine, I'd migrate back to the simpler, happier life styles of the 1950's (at least if you were white) when all you had to worry about was a World War III that never took place and no one ever heard of Aids, crack, global warming, or energy shortages. The 21st century sounded like it'd be a wondrous time when I was a kid. Now I sometimes wished I'd died before it ever arrived!


Past the first sentence nothing I wrote was actually aimed at anything you wrote. I thought I'd make this clear.

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Jason Toddman » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:36 pm

That's okay. I took no offense in any case and hopefully I caused none in return.
I just didn't want to be misunderstood (which is a common problem for me anyway, I'm afraid). :oops: :mrgreen:
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby Nuclearo » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:37 pm

Even if I'm pretty sure the point was raised in one of the replies I neglected to read so far, I wanted to voice this opinion myself. While the Muslims building the mosque probably have nothing to do with bin laden other than sharing some aspects of a religion and have every right to build wherever they like, this act really seems like they're trying to pick a fight or just plain irritate someone. They aren't that stupid, they know what it would seem like and doing it regardless is inconsiderate.
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Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby KittyReaper » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:17 am

Ok here it is My perspective on the situation. Everyone blames Islam for the attack on 9/11 and that may be partly true but what really lead the attack were the motives and sick minds of the men who committed the act. I also recall how no ones blames Christianity for the Holocaust or the KKK their arguments being "Well other people are Christan and they didn't support that." Well that is exactly the point not all Muslims 'supported 9/11' in fact most despise the the act of war because Islam is a religion of peace.

People who are uneducated blame Islam for giving no freedom to women or insanely strict law in Muslim dominated countries but this is not because of the religion its because of the tradition of the People in that area. If anyone actually bothered to read the Quran they would know that Islam values women very highly and considers them almost equal to men in all ways.

Thirdly the mosque in question is being expanded so it already existed beforehand. The first amendment also states "freedom of religion" so for no reason can anyone stop the expanding of the mosque there and if they stop the mosque being built there then a minority of people are having their rights taken away and that is the very reason the Bill of rights exists in the first place to protect the freedoms of the minority.

"The first step to a dictatorship is the tyranny of the majority."

Re: Mosque on ground zero.

Postby kateknots » Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:09 am

FIrst let me say that I am offering this opinion as a New Yorker who friends lost parents on that day.

I do sympathize with the people who are against the Mosque being built on the site. I understand their anger, especially if they really believe that islam was behind the attacks. The thing I know and try not to forget is that the Islamic community that wants to build this Mosque was hurt as much by the events of 9/11 as every, cross carrying Christian and Torah reading Jew on the planet.

The individuals who committed 9/11 took elements of Islam out of context and perverted them to justify their own cause. There is no religion in the world including Christianity who has not had it's teaching perverted for evil purposes. So even in our anger we must work to understand that. As hard as it is we should try to temper our anger with the truth even if it is sometimes hard to believe.

SO I say to you as a war damaged New Yorker, YES build the Masque right between a Temple and a Cathedral. Lets us as a nation show those evil hateful people that we are one nation under God and that no expression of faith will be excluded.