My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby zanev » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:57 pm

Raising the minimum wage will put businesses out of business, in particular small ones. Companies budget for labor, products , wages etc. In most cases the owners are not sitting on an excess of money, they make enough to earn a profit. So lets say you make $8/hr and the new minimum is $12. Thats $4 extra per hour, per employee thats taken out of the budget. Just because you make more money doesn't mean the cost of everything suddenly goes down.

Lets say I own a flower shop. My weekly income for the store is $4,000. My employees make $8/hr, and I have 5of them

Thats $1600 a week in employee wages, so now I have $2,400 left. Well I need to get my flowers from somewhere, and materials. Lets say thats $600 a week. I have $1800 left. I budget that to pay costs of the business, keeping the lights on, city taxes etc. Out of that maybe $600 is left over...thats my profit.

So now we raise the minimum wage to $14/hr. Well my $4,000 budget doesn't change...the cost of labor and materials doesn't change. City taxes don't change., So my $600/wk profit, you know what it turns into?

My employees pay go from 1600 to 3360. Working with a 4000 week budget my profit is now either destroyed or now I'm in debit.

My solution: I need to fire employees to save my business. If that doesn't work I go out of business.

So what should we do? Erase the minimum wage entirely. Make people earn off market value. You get paid for what the market says you are worth. Meaning if someone works harder than you, and I need someone reliable I can pay them more than what you earn for the exact same position. You become worth, what your job is worth, not what a law says you are worth.
I close my eyes, Inis Mona
And reminisce of those palmy days
I moon o'er you, Inis Mona
As long as I breathe
I'll call you my home

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby mikeybound » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:45 pm

However, what's to stop millions of people from driving the wage to the lowest possible cent? And don't say no one would work for below the current minimum wage or something like that, cause there'll always be someone desperate or stupid enough. At least the minimum wage is a standard. If employers can't keep up with the cost of living, then that may be an entirely different problem.

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby skybird137 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:55 am

If employees have more money in their pockets, they can also purchase more, and that includes flowers. So not including an increase in sales from this situation is mis-representing it.

In the UK, the head of the Confederation of British Industry, which looks after British business, is saying that companies should be paying their workers more.
Calling Fifty Shades of Grey a Bondage Story is like calling Titanic an Iceberg Movie...

http://skybird137.deviantart.com

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby xtc » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:45 am

Even though we have a minimum wage in the UK, the "Living Wage", particularly in London, is substantially higher.
Even those working full time on minimum wage still have to pay income tax. Put money in people's pockets and then they can boost trade. Perhaps even food banks will not then be necessary. Just a thought.
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:34 pm

1. If you don't pay people enough to live on, why should they bother to work at all? They may as well go on welfare and take it easy. Like the old song goes, "Sixteen tons (of shoveling coal), and what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt."
2. When people can't earn enough to pay their bills, they have to go on food stamps and other assistance. Guess who pays for all that. We, the other hard-working taxpayers. Not the business owners though; they get huge tax breaks and - in the case of larger businesses and corporations - obscene profits. Many businesses literally exploit their workers. Yeah, I know that sounds like the old Socialist/Communist propaganda; but that doesn't mean that it's entirely untrue! If people like Marx hadn't had a valid point,we wouldn't have endured the scourge of Communism in the first place!
Walmart is a notorious case in point. MacDonald's is another. The CEOs of each say they see nothing wrong with their employees having to go on food stamps and other supplementary assistance - passing the cost onto all of us rather than bear their fair share.
3. I make above minimum wage but i haven't had a pay raise in ten years. Meanwhile my rent, food, health insurance, and other bills keep going up and up. I havent' had a vacation in all that time, while my employers take four two-week vacations or more to some exotic location every freaking year. How come the cost of everything else goes up but the worth of my hard labor does not?
4. Business people get to set the price of what they charge for goods and services. Common laborers do not; they have to get what their employers will pay while having to pay what their landlords and other folks charge. Dos that really seem fair to you?
5. Unless there are steady, regular increases in the minimum wage, peoples' wages will never rise and poverty levels will steadily increase. Too many employers won't raise wages to a livable level until they are forced to. If not for minimum wage laws, many more people would probably be earning what is now minimum wage - and a great many probably would be paid a great deal less than that.
6. Many who are against minimum wage increases live and act like someone right out of a Charles Dickens novel. Some (including the Tea Party retard of a governor my state is currently saddled with somehow) even want to roll back child labor laws, forcing school children to work to earn their lunch money for instance. Is that really the kind of world you want to live in?
7. If you can't pay employees wage they can pay their basic bills with, then maybe you shouldn't be in business in the first place.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Kyle » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:41 pm

My beliefs usually skew libertarian, but I absolutely oppose getting rid of minimum wage. Too many companies would take advantage of being able to pay workers low wages. You can say something like "market value" will determine your pay, but let's be honest here, many companies would be glad to pay significantly less than minimum wage if they could. Why do you think illegal immigration is such a big problem?

On the other hand, I also don't really understand the reasoning behind increasing the minimum wage if it's simply going to put minimum wage employees out of work. So then they go from making low wages to no wages. What in the world would you accomplish by doing that?

The companies that get hurt by increasing the minimum wage are the small companies, not big corporations. They can usually afford an increase in the minimum wage. Smaller companies might not be able to.

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Jason Toddman » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:26 pm

Kyle wrote:On the other hand, I also don't really understand the reasoning behind increasing the minimum wage if it's simply going to put minimum wage employees out of work. So then they go from making low wages to no wages. What in the world would you accomplish by doing that?

That's an easy one. That's what conservatives and rich folks always say every time the subject comes up to scare people into voting to keep the status quo, just so they can keep the money for themselves. Every time they scare people, but every time the minimum wage had increased, none of their dire predictions have come true. But they continue to do it every time in hopes of scaring people out of the idea. i know; I'm old enough to remember several different times they've done this since i began working for an hourly wage (as opposed to seasonal work as previously) in 1977, when minimum wage was only $2.65 an hour!
Btw if minimum wage had kept pace with inflation from 1977 to now, minimum wage would be about $10.60 an hour now (as a dollar then had the same average buying power as $4 now).
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby zanev » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:16 pm

Jason Toddman wrote:1. If you don't pay people enough to live on, why should they bother to work at all? They may as well go on welfare and take it easy. Like the old song goes, "Sixteen tons (of shoveling coal), and what do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt."

Get rid of welfare, or set a time table for it to only lasts up to 6 months, forcing able bodied people to go to work.

2. When people can't earn enough to pay their bills, they have to go on food stamps and other assistance. Guess who pays for all that. We, the other hard-working taxpayers. Not the business owners though; they get huge tax breaks and - in the case of larger businesses and corporations - obscene profits. Many businesses literally exploit their workers. Yeah, I know that sounds like the old Socialist/Communist propaganda; but that doesn't mean that it's entirely untrue! If people like Marx hadn't had a valid point,we wouldn't have endured the scourge of Communism in the first place!
Walmart is a notorious case in point. MacDonald's is another. The CEOs of each say they see nothing wrong with their employees having to go on food stamps and other supplementary assistance - passing the cost onto all of us rather than bear their fair share.

Stop allowing people to depend on government, same with point one kick people off social programs after x amount of time, if they are abled bodied to work. If they are disabled and cannot work, they should be the only exception to life long social programs.

3. I make above minimum wage but i haven't had a pay raise in ten years. Meanwhile my rent, food, health insurance, and other bills keep going up and up. I havent' had a vacation in all that time, while my employers take four two-week vacations or more to some exotic location every freaking year. How come the cost of everything else goes up but the worth of my hard labor does not?

Because we currently do not have a market society. If we abolish the minimum wage then it creates competitiveness, the harder working people would get paid more.

4. Business people get to set the price of what they charge for goods and services. Common laborers do not; they have to get what their employers will pay while having to pay what their landlords and other folks charge. Dos that really seem fair to you?

Yes, its about profit. The goal of business is to make a profit.If people feel the work they do is worth a certain amount of money the employer is willing to pay them then it is fair.

5. Unless there are steady, regular increases in the minimum wage, peoples' wages will never rise and poverty levels will steadily increase. Too many employers won't raise wages to a livable level until they are forced to. If not for minimum wage laws, many more people would probably be earning what is now minimum wage - and a great many probably would be paid a great deal less than that.


As an employer its your choice what you pay your people, just as much as its the employees choice if they want to work for the wages the employer sets.


6. Many who are against minimum wage increases live and act like someone right out of a Charles Dickens novel. Some (including the Tea Party retard of a governor my state is currently saddled with somehow) even want to roll back child labor laws, forcing school children to work to earn their lunch money for instance. Is that really the kind of world you want to live in?


I dont support government acting as a charity. People should earn their income, and if their skills are valuable to an employer they will get paid accordingly. If I need to pick between you and person X and the job is a mission to Mars...if you have a degree in science, you have skills in engineering and have credentials, and person X is a recent graduate from a city college with average grades I would pick you and pay you for what your skills are worth.


7. If you can't pay employees wage they can pay their basic bills with, then maybe you shouldn't be in business in the first place.

Or people should seek jobs in which they make enough money.
I close my eyes, Inis Mona
And reminisce of those palmy days
I moon o'er you, Inis Mona
As long as I breathe
I'll call you my home

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby NemesisPrime » Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:55 pm

This is a rather devise topic isn't it?

Let me get this out of the way now, politically I swing left despite coming from a conservative household in the south.

To me, those who only pay minimum wage tells me: "I'd pay you less if I could." It's true that business as their primary method of existence is to make money but they also have a responsibility to those they employ as proven in countless studies that happy workers = more productive workers = more $$$.

However there are some who cannot get anything more than minimum wage be it because they're not very skilled to begin with (those that have no MARKETABLE skills as for what's in-demand), they lost their jobs due to automation and need to care for their family, etc. It's not as black and white as the teenager doing it to make a little extra cash on the side, some of these people are 30 - 35 years old and depend on these jobs for even a meager living.

zanev, I'm not sure about the education system where you live but here it literally costs an arm and a leg. Now I went to a techincal school for 2 years and only ended up having to pay little over $1000 per semester so that's almost $5000 a year.

And there's no grantee that these people would even find work as 4 years is a long time and likely those jobs will be few and far between so where are they left? In the same position as when they started.

The problem zanev is that the minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation, had it been it would be $22 an hour. Does this mean I want a $22 wage though? No, just $11 an hour would be enough to allow people to live a little comfortably. Not extravagant no but at least they'll be able to pay their bills and keep their Netflix.

Like Jason said, the ones most hurt are small companies but for the big ones like McDonalds and Wal-Mart? They make enough to easily subsidize the increase in the price floor yet they artificiality keep their wages low and use the government to subsidize them.

Studies have shown that wage increases only end up having a negligible effect on unemployment and actually make people's live better by lifting them out of poverty.

I'm aware I'm jumping over the place but that's just my thought process. In alot of cases such as this it's you take what your employer is willing to pay or you starve. It's a false choice.

If we abolished the minimum wage companies would absolutely take advantage it to pay those under them $2 or hell $1 an hour! IT would not increase competitiveness but simply more collusion amongst companies. "Why should I pay you $7 an hour when I can get the same work done for $2 an hour in the next town?"

As for us not relying on the government well when the private sector isn't willing to pay enough to cover the most basic things, the government is the employer of last result.

We would not have a market economy if we did abolish it, that's a pipedream or have you not heard of the collusion between tech companies in Silicon Valley to not pay their employees what they're worth and mislead them in order to keep their wages down?

Fact is, it's helped more than it's hurt. It's one of the few laws that help people, it just needs updating.
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:10 am

1. Get rid of welfare, or set a time table for it to only lasts up to 6 months, forcing able bodied people to go to work.
And if there are no decent jobs available, then what?

2. Stop allowing people to depend on government, same with point one kick people off social programs after x amount of time, if they are abled bodied to work. If they are disabled and cannot work, they should be the only exception to life long social programs.
I agree when it comes to those who don't even try, but considering the state of the economy this punishes a lot of innocent folks along with the guilty.

3.Because we currently do not have a market society. If we abolish the minimum wage then it creates competitiveness, the harder working people would get paid more.
Maybe more than others would get, but probably NOT more compared to what they get right now. All that would happen would be that the hardest working would barely keep their heads above water while everyone else slowly drowned. It's happened every time the common worker had no voice to represent him.

4. Yes, its about profit. The goal of business is to make a profit.If people feel the work they do is worth a certain amount of money the employer is willing to pay them then it is fair.
And if they think their work is worth more, then what?

5. As an employer its your choice what you pay your people, just as much as its the employees choice if they want to work for the wages the employer sets.
Right, because the only other choice is to starve and freeze. Yeah, great choice. Sounds to me like you never had to work from paycheck to paycheck, or you'd understand how scary being in such a situation really is.

6. I dont support government acting as a charity. People should earn their income, and if their skills are valuable to an employer they will get paid accordingly. If I need to pick between you and person X and the job is a mission to Mars...if you have a degree in science, you have skills in engineering and have credentials, and person X is a recent graduate from a city college with average grades I would pick you and pay you for what your skills are worth.
Sounds great in theory. But we aren't talking missions to Mars and we aren't talking about specialists who were lucky enough to be able to afford a college education (or who had to go deeply into debt to get one). Those jobs DO pay what they're worth. We're talking about jobs that have to be done (cleaning septic tanks, digging ditches, constructing buildings, serving fast food to rude customers,), that are difficult, unpleasant, high-pressure, and pay peanuts.

7. Or people should seek jobs in which they make enough money.
Do you live in an Ivory tower, or what? People are seeking jobs and can't find them. I personally know someone with a Master's degree in Engineering with 20 years engineering experience under his belt, who has to work as a dishwasher in a second class restaurant because he can't find the kind of jobs he quaklified to do anymore and can't afford to move to a place where such a job can be found!
I myself have a Bachelor's in Science and was trained to be a middle-school teacher. After a year I had to give up on finding a job as a teacher because there was a glut of teachers at the time, and had to join the military to get a decent job - an option which i might is not available to everyone.
Oh yeah, and going back to that flower shop analogy for a moment; if you have five employees and are making only $4000 a week, then you are doing something terribly, terribly wrong. The grocery store )which includes a small flower shop) down the street from me only has two employees (plus the owner) and makes more than that much in one day; and it's not even a very large store!
Yeah,I'm an asshole; i checked - I know the owner. She lives in the house right next to me.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby skybird137 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:41 am

1. Get rid of welfare, or set a time table for it to only lasts up to 6 months, forcing able bodied people to go to work.
And if there are no decent jobs available, then what?


He probably hopes that they and their families will starve to death, thus saving on government expenditure, or be forced into work for nothing, bringing back slavery in the process
Calling Fifty Shades of Grey a Bondage Story is like calling Titanic an Iceberg Movie...

http://skybird137.deviantart.com

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby zanev » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:11 am

I used small numbers in my example for the ease of me doing the math. I have no knowledge of how flower shops work.
I close my eyes, Inis Mona
And reminisce of those palmy days
I moon o'er you, Inis Mona
As long as I breathe
I'll call you my home

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby NemesisPrime » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:18 am

It would seem Zanev is one of those ideology pure libertarians.

I appulade him for his opinion but it's sadly divorced from the reality. Sounds good on paper but in practice not so much.

Zanev, obviously you don't know ether. Again, I'm not sure about you but from my standpoint and it seems everyone who has posted on this thread has pointed out that in reality what you holds no water and I dare say punish everyone in the long run regardless if they deserved it or not.

You assume companies will let the market decide. They have every incentive to keep the market as controlled as possible so THEY can dictate the wages. "Don't like what we offer? Where else are you going to go?"

Do you know why companies are supporting you viewpoint? Cause they want the deregulation to do whatever they want and the ability to jump ship if things go bad while they make off with the cash and leave everyone else to suffer the fallout.
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby skybird137 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:23 am

zanev wrote:I used small numbers in my example for the ease of me doing the math. I have no knowledge of how flower shops work.


$4000 over six days is $666.66 per day. Let's say you are selling them at $20 each on average makes 33 sales. Over an 8 hour day that would mean one sale every 15 minutes.

At this level, you shouldn't even need employees.
Calling Fifty Shades of Grey a Bondage Story is like calling Titanic an Iceberg Movie...

http://skybird137.deviantart.com

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby xtc » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:54 am

As was suggested by the great Jonathan Swift: the Americans (he suggested the Irish) could always eat the poor and that would go some way to solving the problem.

That is certainly no more preposterous than some of the right-wing la-la land stuff being espoused here.
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby NemesisPrime » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:11 am

xtc wrote:As was suggested by the great Jonathan Swift: the Americans (he suggested the Irish) could always eat the poor and that would go some way to solving the problem.

That is certainly no more preposterous than some of the right-wing la-la land stuff being espoused here.

Don't tell them that, we don't need to be giving them ideas.

There's a reason here in the states the right-wing is called "The Stupid Party".
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby FelixSH » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:12 am

The whole idea of the free market is a theoretical concept that can´t be applied to the real world. To work correct, it needs a "perfect market". There are some conditions for a market to be perfect, one of them that decision makers (here employers and employees) have all relevant information. This means everyone who looks for work know exactly all the jobs that are offered and the complete requirements (including not only the abilities for the job, but also what the person who looks through the letters of applications really wants). And it is assumed that you don´t have to look for this information - as soon as a job is available the job seeking person immediately knows it.
Another requirement is that the trading parties can interact freely. This means that if they are unsatisfied with a job, they can take another job the next second. The whole process of applying for a job, going to the interview (including taking a day off from work) and so on is ignored.

These conditions aren´t fulfilled in reality, so you can´t apply the model of the free market that will create the best situation automatically. It´s just theory.

Besides that, do you know anything about the Industrial Revolution? In that time, the government didn´t "act as charity". The result was a horrible life for the majority and a good life for a handful of rich people. If you take welfare away, it will just be the same. The employers have the power and if you don´t force them to share what they have, they won´t. It´s simple as that. They didn´t pay fair prices back than, and they won´t now if they aren´t forced to.
If the managers want to pay what the work is worth they would already pay more than they do. If there wouldn´t be people at McDonalds who sell the food, no one would make any money, so how is the pay they get fair? How is it fair that they work a long time and still have trouble to pay for their living, while the managers get so much more. Of course, management stuff is also important, but I don´t see why it is so much more important than selling the stuff.

Yes, its about profit. The goal of business is to make a profit.If people feel the work they do is worth a certain amount of money the employer is willing to pay them then it is fair.


The goal of business might be to make profit, but the point of having business in the first place is to make sure that the country, and with it the people who live there, can have a good life. A booming economy isn´t worth anything if it means that 90 % of the people who suffer for it.

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby xtc » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:55 am

NemesisPrime wrote:
There's a reason here in the states the right-wing is called "The Stupid Party".


Well, there's another difference between the American language and English: in our country, Call-Me-Dave (our current Prime Minister) is desperate to get rid of the Tories' "Nasty Party" tag. Has quite a ring to it, I think.
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:22 am

zanev wrote:I used small numbers in my example for the ease of me doing the math. I have no knowledge of how flower shops work.

Problem is, arbitrarily using small numbers is the only thing that made your example sound like it had any credibility. It skews the evident results to make a point regardless of its validity; something Tea Party conservatives like to do all the time. So if you know nothing about the actual numbers about how an actual business functions, imo you had no 'business' trying to make that case in that way because - to be bluntly honest - it means you literally don't know what you're talking about.
In the real world, such a flower shop would not be economically viable. I didn't do the numbers like Skybird evidently did, but he's right. A real business with that many employees requires much more business (or fewer employees) than you cited to make money; but without those employees there's no money being made (or at least less of it in a real small business with no employees to handle the load of a real business).
You have to give to get.
The wealthiest 1% in this country control over 40% of the wealth. Much of that is from upper level management taking a huge percentage of the profits for themselves in the form of unearned bonuses, while their hard-working lower level workers have to scrape by from paycheck to paycheck. If you think it's perfectly proper and fair, you might have enjoyed living in a feudal society with nobles and serfs - which ran pretty much along the same lines. The relative standard of living for most people today compared to the wealthiest is about the same now in the US as it was in 11th century Europe or even the early 19th century Europe. Unless you come from a family of old-blooded aristocrats, no one considers those days as being especially fun to live in.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Tieup1 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 12:26 pm

When I left school, I was lucky, I went straight into a job. Most of my schoolmates did the same.
I have never been on high wages, just enough to have a fairly decent standard of living.
Like a lot of people I haven't had a decent pay rise in the last few years, but as has been said, everything has become more expensive, so my money does not go so far as it used to do. So I have to budget a bit more, and go without certain things.

For people who are on even lower wages than I am, life must be pretty tough, so I endorse the idea of the Minimum Wage, it's been literally a lifeline for so many people.

The Jobs Market has also changed, automation in the workplace, means you need less people, companies being bought out, usually meams some will be made redundant.

I also think the gap between the highest earners, and the lowest, has widened very quickly over the last few years.

The Minimum Wage must be kept in place, it's as much a moral issue, as a political one.

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Kyle » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:32 pm

Jason Toddman wrote:
Kyle wrote:On the other hand, I also don't really understand the reasoning behind increasing the minimum wage if it's simply going to put minimum wage employees out of work. So then they go from making low wages to no wages. What in the world would you accomplish by doing that?

That's an easy one. That's what conservatives and rich folks always say every time the subject comes up to scare people into voting to keep the status quo, just so they can keep the money for themselves. Every time they scare people, but every time the minimum wage had increased, none of their dire predictions have come true. But they continue to do it every time in hopes of scaring people out of the idea. i know; I'm old enough to remember several different times they've done this since i began working for an hourly wage (as opposed to seasonal work as previously) in 1977, when minimum wage was only $2.65 an hour!
Btw if minimum wage had kept pace with inflation from 1977 to now, minimum wage would be about $10.60 an hour now (as a dollar then had the same average buying power as $4 now).


It was the nonpartisan CBO who said it could cost 500,000 jobs.

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Kyle » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:35 pm

NemesisPrime wrote:
xtc wrote:As was suggested by the great Jonathan Swift: the Americans (he suggested the Irish) could always eat the poor and that would go some way to solving the problem.

That is certainly no more preposterous than some of the right-wing la-la land stuff being espoused here.

Don't tell them that, we don't need to be giving them ideas.

There's a reason here in the states the right-wing is called "The Stupid Party".


That reason is the portion of elitist left-wingers who are condescending towards everyone else and think they know better than everyone else what is good for them.

Also, do I really have to point out Jonathan Swift was a satirist talking about a completely different time period?

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby xtc » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:43 pm

Kyle, as with most ultra rightists, you miss the point. The poor can support themselves by reducing their population whilst leaving the rich unaffected. That suggestion transcends time.

"Elitist" left-wingers? An oxymoron, surely. We don't really want to line the rich up against the wall and shoot them, we just want an equitable share of the wealth created by those who do not own the means of production. (OOps! Sniff! Sniff! Do I smell a Marxist? Call for the Un-American Activities Committee at once.)

Property might well not be theft, I own my own house (or at least the bank gets first dibs on it when I die) but, without doing anything there are drones who control the wealth of the nation through the ownership of vast tracts of land without having any intention of distributing same.

It has become increasingly difficult for the labourer to be worthy of his hire as production no longer takes place in either this country or America. Will you offer a job to someone in need? Please, create jobs. Don't just discard those inconvenient people who genuinely can't find employment that will enable them to survive.

Here's a suggestion for both sides of the Pond:: build housing. Provide employment and give people decent places to live. I don't know what the American term is but we over here need social housing to replace that which was sold-off by Thatcher without any intention of replacing it.

Pardon my ignorance but what is the "nonpartisan" CBO?

WHEW!! That's better.
I haven't had a really good rant since I was a union rep. (Other than the one about shit on DA)
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:18 pm

xtc wrote:Pardon my ignorance but what is the "nonpartisan" CBO?

The CBO is the Congressional Budget Office. Supposedly it is non-partisan; take is, it doesn't take sides, but I kind of question that.
Here's an article about what Kyle was talking about.
http://news.yahoo.com/10-10-minimum-wag ... 4AGjTQtDMD
As this article points out:
• The overall evidence in the new report by the CBO still implies that the benefits of boosting the minimum wage – higher income and reduced poverty – may outweigh the costs.
• The CBO isn’t widely viewed as the arbiter of broad economic-policy questions (such as the minimum wage) the same way it is on federal budget matters like forecasts of tax revenues or deficits.
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby xtc » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:29 pm

Is the Congressional Budget Office as "non- partisan" as the politically appointed US Supreme Court?
Boxer shorts are cool,
but little speedos rule!

More by the same author: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22729

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Kyle » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:26 pm

xtc wrote:Kyle, as with most ultra rightists, you miss the point. The poor can support themselves by reducing their population whilst leaving the rich unaffected. That suggestion transcends time.

"Elitist" left-wingers? An oxymoron, surely. We don't really want to line the rich up against the wall and shoot them, we just want an equitable share of the wealth created by those who do not own the means of production. (OOps! Sniff! Sniff! Do I smell a Marxist? Call for the Un-American Activities Committee at once.)

Property might well not be theft, I own my own house (or at least the bank gets first dibs on it when I die) but, without doing anything there are drones who control the wealth of the nation through the ownership of vast tracts of land without having any intention of distributing same.

It has become increasingly difficult for the labourer to be worthy of his hire as production no longer takes place in either this country or America. Will you offer a job to someone in need? Please, create jobs. Don't just discard those inconvenient people who genuinely can't find employment that will enable them to survive.

Here's a suggestion for both sides of the Pond:: build housing. Provide employment and give people decent places to live. I don't know what the American term is but we over here need social housing to replace that which was sold-off by Thatcher without any intention of replacing it.

Pardon my ignorance but what is the "nonpartisan" CBO?

WHEW!! That's better.
I haven't had a really good rant since I was a union rep. (Other than the one about shit on DA)


I quit reading 6 words in, because you obviously don't know a damn thing about me. But I'm pretty sure based off that you probably proved my point for me just off that.

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby Kyle » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:38 pm

Jason Toddman wrote:
xtc wrote:Pardon my ignorance but what is the "nonpartisan" CBO?

The CBO is the Congressional Budget Office. Supposedly it is non-partisan; take is, it doesn't take sides, but I kind of question that.
Here's an article about what Kyle was talking about.
http://news.yahoo.com/10-10-minimum-wag ... 4AGjTQtDMD
As this article points out:
• The overall evidence in the new report by the CBO still implies that the benefits of boosting the minimum wage – higher income and reduced poverty – may outweigh the costs.
• The CBO isn’t widely viewed as the arbiter of broad economic-policy questions (such as the minimum wage) the same way it is on federal budget matters like forecasts of tax revenues or deficits.


I have to admit, I probably should've put "nonpartisan" in quotes. Let's face it, not much truly is nonpartisan. But it's TECHNICALLY nonpartisan. It's not overtly conservative (or liberal for that matter).

I can't promise anything they said is accurate. One source I read stated it could really be anywhere from just making a small dent to being much worse than they stated, but 500,000 was the best guess. But anyway, my point was, what is being accomplished if we doom these 500,000 workers to poverty? Because I have a hard time believing jobs lost due to an increase in the minimum wage would be ones among the population who could afford it for long. So we're essentially trading 900,000 in poverty for 500,000 in poverty. I guess that is a 400,000 person increase. What do we say to those 500,000 though? "Sorry, you're collateral damage to make us feel better"? Perhaps this is a good trade-off. Perhaps not. I don't think it can be ignored though.

I'm not entirely against raising the minimum wage. I learned in college if minimum wage had gone up the same rate as CEO pay, minimum wage would be over $20 an hour these days. That will make you stop and think. Although that's probably more a statement of the ridiculousness of executive salaries than it is a statement on minimum wage, which is really a totally different discussion. But I'm also not going to subscribe to the idea raising minimum wage is going to just pull everyone out of poverty and everything will be fine. If that was the case, why not just make it $30 an hour and call it a day?

I'm just not sure I can justify something that's considered likely to cost jobs without a solid guarantee it will help the economy. A jump from whatever it is now ($7 and something, I just don't know the change) to over $10 is a substantial increase likely to cause shockwaves. I would be more open to a more gradual increase to perhaps $8 an hour, which is probably overdue.

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby ebascoray » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:52 pm

This is a topic that has generated some good, thought-provoking discussion. But, I've often wondered, How does any person, any company, any employer, REALLY gauge, or measure, the monetary worth, the monetary value, of any one person's productivity for a company? I've heard the arguments from a lot of talk-show hosts before, that the minimum wage should be abolished and just let the free-market decide what to pay. If that were to be done, how little would a company or person be willing to pay an employee? Four dollars an hour? Three dollars per hour? One dollar an hour? If a company wants to compensate their employees with just $1.00 an hour, then, wow! Isn't THAT an incentive to drag one's self out of bed in the morning and come to work for that company? In my estimation, it's not any incentive at all. About 15 years ago, I once heard a popular talk-show host here in Southern California, who is also a practicing lawyer, that in his law office, a new-hire should be paid at least $10.00 per hour. It was his thought that if you, as an employer, can't afford to pay at least $10.00 an hour to your employees, even new ones, then you don't deserve to be in business, or you are doing something wrong in your business. I mean, just how much is a person's hard work and productivity worth in the "open market" of jobs? Shouldn't it be valued? I certainly think so.

Ebascoray

!

Postby Jason Toddman » Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:42 pm

"Kyle"] I can't promise anything they said is accurate.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but i don't think it is. Such predictions are made every time the minimum wage issue comes up. It has never yet come to pass. Of course, the rich have never been so greedy since the days of Charles Dickens either.

But anyway, my point was, what is being accomplished if we doom these 500,000 workers to poverty?
That was an arbitrary number, with - imo at least - absolutely nothing to back it up. You hear similar numbers concerning everything republicans oppose, such as the ACA. All that number does is scare people who don't really analyze where they came up with the number from (probably from their hind ends).

I'm not entirely against raising the minimum wage. I learned in college if minimum wage had gone up the same rate as CEO pay, minimum wage would be over $20 an hour these days.
That depends over what time period you are referring to. That might be true if you're only going back about ten years. If you go back about forty years, then i'd say the actual figure would be closer to $200 an hour. CEO pay has been increasing an average of TEN TIMES faster than the pay for middle management, and even more than that compared to us ordinary peons.

But I'm also not going to subscribe to the idea raising minimum wage is going to just pull everyone out of poverty and everything will be fine. If that was the case, why not just make it $30 an hour and call it a day?
Because you can make any extreme example like that and make anything sound like a silly argument. We're talking about the difference between economic necessity and sheer buffoonery.

I'm just not sure I can justify something that's considered likely to cost jobs without a solid guarantee it will help the economy. A jump from whatever it is now ($7 and something, I just don't know the change) to over $10 is a substantial increase likely to cause shockwaves. I would be more open to a more gradual increase to perhaps $8 an hour, which is probably overdue.
Probably overdue? More like definitely.
Sounds like you're someone who doesn't have to bust his butt for minimum wage. Lucky you. I don't either, now - but I did when i was younger. Back then it was doable; I'd sure hate to have to do it NOW.
I agree that raising it to $10.10 is too big a jump too quickly ( if only because it's been delayed so long; it should have been increased to $10.10 an hour in gradual increments all along). What they should do is make minimum wage increase tied into the inflation index and make them automatic; just like the deductions on your income taxes. That would end the argument once and for all.
There is another thing no one here has mentioned yet. What is someone who is working hard but only making minimum wage (and therefore just scraping by) supposed to do when he's forced to retire? You can hardly maintain a decent lifestyle and save for retirement on minimum wage, and don't talk to me about Social Security because anyone just making minimum wage isn't going to make a whole helluva lot on Social Security either!
Dare to be different... and make a difference.
To boldly go where no one in their right mind has gone before...

Re: My thoughts on the USA minimum wage

Postby skybird137 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:15 am

There was a 'think-tank' in the UK that claimed the country was losing money due to public holidays, and that more profit could be made for companies if they were abolished.

This didn't find any supporters, even amongst big business. There were people who pointed out that businesses could make more money by forcing employees to work 18 hours a day every day of the year, or by reintroducing slavery.
Calling Fifty Shades of Grey a Bondage Story is like calling Titanic an Iceberg Movie...

http://skybird137.deviantart.com