## Video Games and Damselling

Post by Soul_Rebel » Mon Oct 27, 2014 9:28 am

As many may have noticed, there is a growing debate about the place of the woman in video games.
An article recently caught my attention, http://www.polygon.com/features/2014/10 ... MediaREDEF
At the end of the article a very good point is brought up; these diatribes against the damsel in distress and lack of female agency in video games do not offer practical examples of how developers should forage forward. "If not that, then what?" is the question of many a frustrated middle-grounder.
Should we get rid of tied up characters altogether? Should be give them more agency by not always gagging them, or depicting effort-ful escape attempts?
Would having men in this situation more often help to nullify the stereotype?
In the comments section this gets addressed;
"If it was a male instead of a female, would it be degrading to men?
Oct 24, 2014 | 3:30 PM Reply
IAmUnanimousInThat
Yes. People should be treated more than glorified rugs. It’s bad writing and just laziness.
But in the case of men vs. Women, men are given a variety of roles to play in media like video games. Women are almost always forced into this roles. In the case of men, it’s degrading. In the case of women, it’s degrading and a trend."
Is being tied up really that degrading? If it's for the entire narrative, perhaps so. But what if it's just a part of the overall work? Doesn't this just demonstrate how no one is entirely in control of their fate at all times?
Any thoughts?

Attachments
    The digg coverpage image

Whips and chains may break my bones, but ropes and gags excite me!
The image in my avatar is the work of Vonnart
"Duct tape makes you smart." - Michael Weston

### Re: Video Games and Damselling

Post by NemesisPrime » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:40 am

First of all, Anita is a lair and the criticisms and clips she uses are often out of context like the one she uses for Timespliters 2 which was actually a PARODY of the troupe and not representative of the broader gaming scene and rather than me trying to point out how she's a liar I'll just leave this playlist by thunderf00t systematically debunking her.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... wCiaqjSulc
It's rather long but worth a watch.
Now onto the topic itself yes it's a tired old cliche but it's also timeless of someone braving the dangers of a foreign land in order to save someone whom the protagonist cares deeply for and dates back to middle age lore and seeing as at that time society focused more on men it does make sense why it would be a woman the man has to save. Does this mean that it shouldn't change? No, our world is evolving and our fables evolve with them. Just look in our own modern times, we have women fulfilling roles that were once exclusive to men and being badass characters in their own right.
So being tied up in video games...Is not degrading and is gender-neutral. Both males and females can occupy the role of the damsel in distress and supposed to represent a challenge to the protagonist by the villian(s). Most women in video games aren't like Princess Peach anymore (even though she herself is a pretty competent fighter in Super Smash Bros.) and usually take more of a lead role and when it's shpwed that she has been subdued and tied up by the antagonist it shows the level of power and danger they possess.
Everyone speaks in multiple languages...But gag talk is universal and a sock in your mouth is the perfect translator!

### Re: Video Games and Damselling

Post by jsherwood » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:41 pm

I love the damsel who played Tanya in the very first Red Alert Series.

### Re: Video Games and Damselling

Post by Kyle » Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:20 pm

To some extent, I can see where people are coming from with the complaints about the damsel in distress role. It can be used in a way that can be sexist and sometimes perhaps even degrading. And it can be cliche very, very easy.
But the complaints are a little overboard. Just because a woman is being held captive it does not necessarily make it sexist or degrading in itself. Done right it is a legitimate story to tell. People do get kidnapped for various reasons in real life. It happens to men too and male characters. While it can be overdone, there is a reason it became cliche: it can be a very powerful motivator, one that most people can relate to on some level, and it can make sense.
Video games, like all forms of storytelling, rely on tropes (see TV Tropes) to tell much of their story. But few get complained about. Why is literally almost every single character you ever kill in a video game male, if they aren't some gender-ambiguous monster type of character? Should we add more generic female characters to be killed in games so it's more gender-neutral? Somehow I bet that would be even more offensive to people. I can think of some other things but this one in particular stands out right now because we're discussing a gender role in video games.
Really, how many games these days just have a woman who is nothing more than the damsel in distress with no characterization? The closest I can think of is Mario, but those games are in many ways parodies of themselves nowadays and throwbacks to the days when games had to have flat characters out of necessity due to programming limitations. And even in the Paper Mario games (or at least the first one, the only one I've played) the princess gets a little characterization of her own.
In the end video games are a bit of a fantasy relief. I can play video games and do some of the following:
-In Mario I can run around and jump on walking mushrooms' heads and flatten them, grab a mushroom to make myself twice as big, shoot fireballs out of my hand, and rescue a princess from an oversized turtle who can breathe fire.
-I can play Splinter Cell and become a character who is almost silent and can sneak into heavily guarded compounds without being seen by anyone.
-I can play a MLB game and give the Chicago Cubs their first World Series win in 106 years.
I've played games that had damsels in distress, games with strong female protagonists, and at least one which had both (the Tomb Raider reboot from last year). I've played good games and bad games in both categories. I can't say a damsel in distress in a story makes a game better or worse. It depends on the game and its story.
Now all that being said, I can't disagree there are times it can be sexist, and you could definitely make a case the damsel in distress role is overused. If nothing else, it can at times feel like someone just went for the easy cliche rather than thought anything out. But I don't see how you can make a case it's always a bad, sexist thing.

### Re: Video Games and Damselling

Post by Soul_Rebel » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:28 am

Some good points are being made here; programming limitations were a big part of the past flat characters, this is afterall 'fantasy', and it's overused but not always sexist. Things have changed quite a little, so do you think bringing up how things have evolved, and examples where this is especially helpful? Wouldn't this be preferable to listing games with poorly applying the trope.
Whips and chains may break my bones, but ropes and gags excite me!
The image in my avatar is the work of Vonnart
"Duct tape makes you smart." - Michael Weston

### Re: Video Games and Damselling

Post by Chris12 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:11 am

The damsel trope can be a bit annoying when done poorly but ultimately its just a tool in the toolbox. If the plot can justify it then there's absolutely no sexism or poor taste involved.
Actually from what I gather games are slowly moving away from the damsel in distress tropes. Old dinosaur Nintendo of all companies has had quite a few female fighters. As mentioned Peach has been a competent fighter in her own right this gen and while zelda did get captured in the recent Zelda games she's also crucial in defeating ganondorf the moment she is freed which makes her not a damsel saved by Link but an active participant in her own rescue.
But most important of all is the lovely little game that came out this week.
But noooooo, that's not good enough for those complaining about damsels either
I think the ''Social justice warriors'' as they are called have gotten a little overboard the past few month's. Would a better portrayal of woman be nice? Probably but there's no need to shame people for not agreeing with that and less of a need to force the issue, that tend to has a counterproductive effect...which it clearly has had ever since they became so vocal.
I actually believe male main characters are in more need of improvement because unless we are talking about a quirky Japanese or indy game then I genuinely can't think of a main character introduced these past three years that wasn't a grizzled white dude with facial hair and anger issue's. They have their place but its been years of the exact some main characters now and frankly i'm getting BORED of them.

> First of all, Anita is a lair

I wouldn't say liar per se. She's wrong, usually off base and most importantly...just boring but I think that can be attributed to her not really knowing her gaming stuff.

### Re: Video Games and Damselling

Post by misterg792000 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:51 pm

> Chris12 wrote:But most important of all is the lovely little game that came out this week.
> But noooooo, that's not good enough for those complaining about damsels either

Gosh, I can't imagine why people discussing the objectification of women wouldn't gladly accept a large-breasted adolescent fantasy.

> Chris12 wrote:I think the ''Social justice warriors'' as they are called have gotten a little overboard the past few month's.

Just a tip: if you encounter anyone complaining unironically about "SJWs" they have nothing of value to contribute. It isn't difficult to not be a racist, sexist shitlord (not calling you out, speaking in general), and being either should be socially unacceptable.

### Re: Video Games and Damselling

Post by Chris12 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:52 am

> Gosh, I can't imagine why people discussing the objectification of women wouldn't gladly accept a large-breasted adolescent fantasy.

But I can Its very obviously a parody far to weird to take seriously, its a game where you summon toads made out of hair and it has you flee from a demonic Pope mobile. If something is so over the top then its rather silly to be offended by it. When talking about bayonette the first thing you should realize is that its very weird and missing that weirdness implies to me that the persons doing the complaining haven't been looking very well.

> Just a tip: if you encounter anyone complaining unironically about "SJWs" they have nothing of value to contribute. It isn't difficult to not be a racist, sexist shitlord (not calling you out, speaking in general), and being either should be socially unacceptable.

Its not really my ideal word either but like it or not its a thing now so avoiding the term is just looking away from what's happening. And I really don't have an issue with what they are saying but how they are saying it. The way they are about it now is rather counterproductive if the current fuss is an indication.