[00:00.000 --> 00:02.700] Content warning, this episode includes discussion [00:02.700 --> 00:04.160] of the murder of two children. [00:05.160 --> 00:07.200] So, as Kevin and I record this episode [00:07.200 --> 00:08.780] on Monday, October 7th, [00:09.440 --> 00:13.280] we are exactly a week out from the start [00:13.280 --> 00:15.760] of jury selection, aka, voir dire, [00:15.940 --> 00:17.640] in the Delphi Murders case, which, of course, [00:17.640 --> 00:22.160] is the murder of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. [00:22.920 --> 00:25.180] Richard Allen is going to be the defendant in this case. [00:25.900 --> 00:27.700] And there's a lot happening, [00:27.720 --> 00:29.340] so we wanted to take this episode [00:29.340 --> 00:32.960] to essentially discuss certain important things [00:32.960 --> 00:34.980] as we go into trial. [00:35.960 --> 00:38.140] My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist. [00:38.660 --> 00:40.660] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. [00:41.100 --> 00:42.540] And this is The Murder Sheet. [00:42.880 --> 00:45.900] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, [00:46.420 --> 00:48.880] interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. [00:49.220 --> 00:50.600] We are The Murder Sheet. [00:50.800 --> 00:52.960] And this is The Delphi Murders. [00:53.500 --> 00:55.280] Kathy Allen speaks out. [00:55.600 --> 00:57.340] And more pre-trial updates. [01:43.140 --> 01:46.760] So, let's start, Anya, by jumping back [01:46.760 --> 01:50.920] to something we refer to on the program a few weeks ago. [01:51.160 --> 01:52.540] At the end of one episode, [01:53.060 --> 01:56.080] we mentioned that there was a rumor out there [01:56.080 --> 01:59.340] that we had reached out to Kathy Allen [01:59.340 --> 02:01.540] and her husband, Richard Allen, about. [02:02.120 --> 02:03.520] And I think at this point, [02:04.260 --> 02:07.680] it's appropriate for us to reveal what that rumor was. [02:09.120 --> 02:11.700] Essentially, the story going around, [02:11.700 --> 02:18.540] was that Kathy Allen had told some people outside court [02:18.540 --> 02:22.700] that she now believed the confessions [02:22.700 --> 02:24.960] Richard Allen had been making, [02:25.600 --> 02:29.240] and also that she now considered her marriage [02:29.240 --> 02:31.120] to him to be over. [02:31.780 --> 02:35.120] And so, if that was an accurate reflection [02:35.120 --> 02:38.040] of Kathy Allen's beliefs, [02:38.360 --> 02:40.500] I don't need to explain to you [02:40.500 --> 02:41.680] why that would be significant, [02:41.700 --> 02:45.520] and also, if it was not an accurate reflection [02:45.520 --> 02:49.400] of her beliefs, that would obviously be unfair to her. [02:50.120 --> 02:53.140] And also thrown into the mix is that, [02:53.840 --> 02:56.120] even in the best of circumstances, [02:56.520 --> 02:59.020] sometimes communication wires get crossed, [02:59.600 --> 03:00.980] and someone may say something [03:00.980 --> 03:02.940] that one person interprets one way, [03:03.200 --> 03:04.900] that's not the way the person meant [03:04.900 --> 03:06.100] for it to be interpreted. [03:06.660 --> 03:10.140] So, there's all sorts of potential problems there [03:10.140 --> 03:12.640] to try to get to what the truth is. [03:13.840 --> 03:15.940] So, when we became aware of this story, [03:16.500 --> 03:18.340] we decided it was important enough [03:18.340 --> 03:19.440] to try to get to the truth, [03:19.680 --> 03:21.040] and as we mentioned, [03:21.520 --> 03:24.860] we reached out to Kathy Allen herself, [03:25.460 --> 03:27.020] did not get a response. [03:27.660 --> 03:29.340] We reached out to Richard Allen, [03:29.420 --> 03:30.900] did not get a response. [03:31.220 --> 03:32.760] What happened this weekend, Anya? [03:33.080 --> 03:34.700] Well, this weekend, we actually heard [03:34.700 --> 03:36.260] from Kathy Allen's attorney, [03:36.520 --> 03:37.840] a man named David Cloutier, [03:37.840 --> 03:42.220] and he was able to give us a robust kind of long statement [03:42.220 --> 03:45.480] explaining everything, and we really appreciated that. [03:45.660 --> 03:48.060] And we were also, I just want to say, [03:48.820 --> 03:50.980] really heartened to see that Kathy Allen [03:50.980 --> 03:52.760] has representation as well. [03:53.380 --> 03:57.560] Yeah, I think some people are distrustful of attorneys, [03:57.740 --> 03:59.060] and they go, oh, if someone has an attorney, [03:59.760 --> 04:01.740] there must be something afoot. [04:02.180 --> 04:03.900] But maybe this is my bias. [04:04.020 --> 04:06.560] I think it's great when people have attorneys, [04:07.640 --> 04:11.800] especially when you are in a situation in life [04:11.800 --> 04:15.600] when you're thrust into an unfamiliar situation [04:15.600 --> 04:18.680] where all of a sudden you might be confronted [04:18.680 --> 04:20.880] by situations you've never encountered before. [04:21.300 --> 04:23.500] There might be people coming out of the woodwork [04:23.500 --> 04:26.140] trying to do this or trying to do this [04:26.140 --> 04:28.020] or trying to get things from you. [04:28.320 --> 04:30.760] In a situation like that, [04:31.100 --> 04:33.580] a lawyer can be your absolute best friend [04:33.580 --> 04:36.700] because your lawyer can help you navigate those waters. [04:37.180 --> 04:41.180] And also, your lawyer is someone who you can talk to [04:41.180 --> 04:43.320] in absolute complete confidence [04:43.320 --> 04:45.180] because whatever you say to your lawyer, [04:45.380 --> 04:46.900] of course, is confidential. [04:47.300 --> 04:51.000] So I think Kathy Allen's obviously in a difficult spot. [04:51.260 --> 04:52.760] It's great that she has an attorney. [04:52.980 --> 04:54.040] Yeah, we think that's terrific. [04:54.260 --> 04:58.100] And an attorney is able to look after your interests [04:58.100 --> 05:01.020] and your interests alone, not anybody else's. [05:01.080 --> 05:03.200] It's just what is right for Kathy Allen. [05:03.200 --> 05:07.620] And so when you are a spouse who is undergoing something [05:07.620 --> 05:09.960] as public and awful and chaotic [05:09.960 --> 05:12.100] as what she is undergoing with this case, [05:12.820 --> 05:15.880] I think you need an attorney to look out for your interests. [05:16.120 --> 05:17.700] And so I just, yeah, I think it's really important [05:17.700 --> 05:20.860] to stress that that is very welcome news. [05:22.080 --> 05:25.440] And yeah, we can sort of read the statement, I guess. [05:25.680 --> 05:27.380] With all of that said, do you want to read [05:27.380 --> 05:28.440] Mr. Cloutier's statement? [05:28.480 --> 05:31.100] Sure, and as we've, it's going to stay in the statement, [05:31.120 --> 05:32.920] but we very much concur with this. [05:32.920 --> 05:34.460] This does not break any sort of gag order [05:34.460 --> 05:36.580] because this just has to do with the personal life [05:36.580 --> 05:37.460] of the Allens. [05:37.520 --> 05:39.680] It doesn't have to do with any facts of the case. [05:39.720 --> 05:42.020] So we feel very strongly that this is just, [05:42.020 --> 05:43.180] you know, completely fine. [05:43.700 --> 05:45.760] Yeah, Mr. Cloutier is a professional. [05:45.920 --> 05:49.120] I think he tailored this statement very carefully [05:49.120 --> 05:53.740] to stay within the boundaries set up by the gag order. [05:54.980 --> 05:55.420] Absolutely. [05:56.180 --> 05:58.780] We are more than thrilled to introduce to you [05:58.780 --> 06:00.720] our next wonderful sponsor, [06:00.720 --> 06:04.660] the Silver Linings Handbook with Jason Blair. [06:04.960 --> 06:07.120] This is an excellent weekly podcast [06:07.120 --> 06:10.720] where Jason talks to people from all walks of life. [06:11.280 --> 06:13.540] These are interesting people engaging [06:13.540 --> 06:15.720] in conversations that inspire. [06:16.280 --> 06:18.040] Jason is one of the most compassionate [06:18.040 --> 06:20.460] and thoughtful people we've ever met in this space. [06:20.620 --> 06:22.640] We've been on Silver Linings Handbook ourselves, [06:22.720 --> 06:23.940] and he's been on the murder sheet. [06:24.380 --> 06:26.720] The thoughts he shared with us on the Delphi murders case [06:26.720 --> 06:29.200] and true crime in general are just so insightful. [06:29.200 --> 06:31.820] I definitely find myself citing Jason a lot. [06:32.020 --> 06:33.740] He honestly makes us believe in the bright side [06:33.740 --> 06:35.620] of true crime, the compassionate side, [06:35.760 --> 06:37.820] the side that can really make a positive difference [06:37.820 --> 06:38.400] in the world. [06:38.520 --> 06:40.520] He's helped us to adjust to some of the challenges [06:40.520 --> 06:42.460] around reporting on true crime and tragedy, [06:42.740 --> 06:44.820] and that is very much in keeping with his show. [06:45.360 --> 06:47.400] Listening to the Silver Linings Handbook [06:47.400 --> 06:49.840] is like getting to sit around a campfire [06:49.840 --> 06:51.740] with fascinating people. [06:52.240 --> 06:55.500] It is fun, it is intriguing, it is often surprising. [06:55.860 --> 06:58.000] You get to hear important conversations [06:58.000 --> 07:00.900] that can inspire you to consider new perspectives [07:00.900 --> 07:03.660] and to take action in your own life. [07:04.180 --> 07:06.660] You also get to learn so much about mental health, [07:06.880 --> 07:09.160] well-being, the criminal justice system, [07:09.460 --> 07:11.140] religion, and a lot more. [07:11.420 --> 07:13.960] Jason is someone that we just think is a terrific person. [07:14.200 --> 07:15.320] He's been through a lot himself. [07:15.380 --> 07:16.620] He's worked on his mental health. [07:16.840 --> 07:17.900] He's rebuilt his life. [07:18.340 --> 07:20.520] Those experiences have helped shape him [07:20.520 --> 07:22.300] into a truly empathetic person, [07:22.700 --> 07:23.800] somebody who gets what it's like [07:23.800 --> 07:25.680] to have your world turned upside down. [07:25.680 --> 07:28.100] He brings that gift to his interviews. [07:28.540 --> 07:31.780] These are unscripted, authentic, engaging talks. [07:32.420 --> 07:33.800] Jason covers true crime, [07:34.060 --> 07:37.100] but his podcast gets into a lot more. [07:37.560 --> 07:39.580] Subscribe to the Silver Linings Handbook [07:39.580 --> 07:41.500] wherever you listen to podcasts. [07:43.740 --> 07:47.180] Anya is now going to read Mr. Cloutier's statement, [07:47.180 --> 07:51.480] and again, this is the attorney for Cassie Allen. [07:52.420 --> 07:55.200] Quote, the following is in response to questions [07:55.200 --> 07:57.120] directed to Cathy Allen, Cathy. [07:57.740 --> 07:59.860] My name is David, Dave, Cloutier. [08:00.360 --> 08:02.080] I've been a licensed attorney in Indiana [08:02.080 --> 08:04.460] for over 28 years, practicing in South Bend [08:04.460 --> 08:06.100] and handling personal injuries, [08:06.620 --> 08:08.680] personal injury and wrongful death cases, [08:09.120 --> 08:10.940] primarily in North Central Indiana. [08:11.400 --> 08:13.340] I can confirm that I am privileged [08:13.340 --> 08:15.780] to represent Cathy on a pro bono basis [08:15.780 --> 08:18.860] with respect to advising her about protecting her interests [08:18.860 --> 08:21.920] related to the publicity surrounding the State Be Allen [08:21.920 --> 08:24.120] case, in which Cathy's husband, Rick, [08:24.120 --> 08:26.940] is accused of the tragic murders of Liberty German [08:26.940 --> 08:27.980] and Abigail Williams. [08:28.680 --> 08:29.600] Cathy and I were brought together [08:29.600 --> 08:31.920] by a mutual acquaintance who is a professional [08:31.920 --> 08:34.140] who felt strongly that Cathy needed advice [08:34.140 --> 08:35.920] and representation for herself. [08:36.540 --> 08:39.440] Over several months, I've gotten to know Cathy very well. [08:39.780 --> 08:41.080] She is under incredible stress, [08:41.260 --> 08:43.620] but has handled it with grace, dignity, and goodwill. [08:44.000 --> 08:45.740] It has been a privilege to get to know someone [08:45.740 --> 08:46.780] of Cathy's strength. [08:47.360 --> 08:49.460] Cathy and I both have complete sympathy [08:49.460 --> 08:51.840] for the family members of Libby German [08:51.840 --> 08:54.040] and Abby Williams, and for all the people [08:54.040 --> 08:56.380] of the Delphi area, it's difficult to imagine [08:56.380 --> 08:57.900] how hard it must be for the families [08:57.900 --> 09:00.240] who deal with this loss to deal with this loss [09:00.240 --> 09:01.880] and the unspeakably horrible nature [09:01.880 --> 09:03.300] of what happened to Libby and Abby. [09:03.900 --> 09:08.340] For various reasons, Cathy has scrupulously avoided [09:08.340 --> 09:10.280] public comment of any kind, [09:10.660 --> 09:12.760] even in the face of repeated false claims [09:12.760 --> 09:14.720] and misinformation, both generally [09:15.460 --> 09:17.420] and specifically related to her. [09:18.500 --> 09:20.720] Cathy has no desire to do or say anything [09:20.720 --> 09:22.480] to prejudice any party's rights [09:22.480 --> 09:23.940] related to the upcoming trial. [09:24.640 --> 09:26.740] She has also been very careful to avoid doing [09:26.740 --> 09:29.080] or saying anything to add any pain or anxiety [09:29.080 --> 09:30.900] to the families of Abby and Libby. [09:31.180 --> 09:33.380] However, recently, Cathy was contacted [09:33.380 --> 09:35.740] by the murder sheet from whom she learned [09:35.740 --> 09:38.140] of a claim by an unknown person or persons [09:38.140 --> 09:39.180] about Cathy's marriage. [09:39.700 --> 09:41.460] We appreciate the professionalism [09:41.460 --> 09:44.360] and journalistic integrity of the murder sheet [09:44.360 --> 09:46.280] in seeking comment before reporting. [09:46.840 --> 09:48.760] I am responding on Cathy's behalf. [09:49.200 --> 09:51.400] We do so in part because the allegation [09:51.400 --> 09:53.420] brought to Cathy's attention does not relate [09:53.420 --> 09:55.560] to the facts of the case or the upcoming trial, [09:55.920 --> 09:57.580] but is specifically about her. [09:58.420 --> 10:00.860] In addition, Cathy's response is necessary [10:00.860 --> 10:02.780] because the truth matters and misinformation [10:02.780 --> 10:04.420] causes harm to her and her family. [10:05.040 --> 10:08.560] As very wisely said by Kelsey German in July 2019, [10:09.160 --> 10:10.940] rumors suck and they hurt people, [10:11.360 --> 10:13.080] as quoted in the Indianapolis Star. [10:13.840 --> 10:16.400] Therefore, I can confirm the following answer [10:16.400 --> 10:18.000] from Cathy to the questions you asked. [10:18.500 --> 10:21.080] Questions were whether Cathy considers her marriage [10:21.080 --> 10:25.620] to Rick to be over and now believes his alleged confessions. [10:26.040 --> 10:27.780] Relatedly, it was asked of Cathy [10:27.780 --> 10:30.240] whether she has had some kind of recent change of heart [10:30.240 --> 10:33.380] and is on that basis going around saying these things. [10:34.100 --> 10:35.520] Cathy's answer to these questions [10:35.520 --> 10:38.400] is most definitely and emphatically no. [10:39.160 --> 10:42.200] Cathy's marriage has certainly been profoundly affected [10:42.200 --> 10:43.360] by Rick's incarceration [10:43.360 --> 10:45.660] and both of them are suffering immense stress. [10:46.100 --> 10:47.300] But Cathy loves her husband, [10:47.660 --> 10:49.640] believes in the sanctity of the marriage vows, [10:49.640 --> 10:52.280] and believes that the same presumption of innocence [10:52.280 --> 10:54.040] our legal system gives to Rick [10:54.040 --> 10:56.300] should be given in equal measure by her [10:56.300 --> 10:57.360] to the husband she loves. [10:58.060 --> 11:00.000] As to her husband's alleged confessions, [11:00.140 --> 11:02.160] it is not true that Cathy now believes them. [11:02.600 --> 11:04.580] But at this time, Cathy will limit her response [11:04.580 --> 11:05.360] to just that. [11:06.060 --> 11:07.920] Finally, she has not been going around [11:07.920 --> 11:09.080] telling people these things. [11:09.620 --> 11:11.020] Cathy certainly has strong opinions [11:11.020 --> 11:13.060] and much to say about these matters more broadly. [11:13.500 --> 11:14.760] Perhaps in the very near future [11:14.760 --> 11:15.720] or further down the road, [11:15.820 --> 11:17.460] she may be willing and able to say more. [11:17.460 --> 11:19.980] For the time being, she's only responding [11:19.980 --> 11:21.360] to the direct questions you ask [11:21.360 --> 11:23.260] that do not relate to the facts of the case, [11:23.260 --> 11:25.820] but do relate to Cathy herself and her reputation. [11:26.620 --> 11:28.140] With malice toward no one, [11:28.380 --> 11:30.480] Cathy prays for justice and for healing [11:30.480 --> 11:32.040] for all innocent people affected [11:32.040 --> 11:33.340] by the murders of Libby and Abby. [11:33.740 --> 11:35.120] She's also extremely grateful [11:35.120 --> 11:36.580] to Rick's defense team of lawyers, [11:36.800 --> 11:38.040] their staffs, and investigators. [11:38.560 --> 11:40.060] They have been courteous and kind to her [11:40.060 --> 11:42.360] and very conscientious about representing her husband. [11:42.840 --> 11:43.300] End quote. [11:43.300 --> 11:48.580] I think Mr. Cloutier is a very well-spoken person. [11:49.320 --> 11:51.940] I'm not sure there's much for us to add [11:51.940 --> 11:53.480] or discuss about that statement. [11:54.020 --> 11:56.420] Is there anything you want to say about this [11:56.420 --> 11:57.300] before we move on? [11:57.480 --> 11:59.860] I just want to say we're immensely grateful [11:59.860 --> 12:01.960] to Mr. Cloutier and to Cathy Allen [12:01.960 --> 12:05.000] for providing this clarity, providing this answer. [12:05.360 --> 12:08.460] And we really very much appreciate that. [12:08.800 --> 12:11.280] And in addition to that, I want to say [12:11.280 --> 12:14.040] that we're about to go into a very contentious, [12:15.240 --> 12:16.820] very dramatic trial. [12:17.680 --> 12:21.320] And I just hope that this statement and, you know, [12:21.380 --> 12:23.760] the references that Cathy Allen is making [12:23.760 --> 12:25.820] towards Libby and Abby's families as well, [12:25.980 --> 12:27.700] just reminds everyone that there are human beings [12:27.700 --> 12:29.640] at the heart of this and there are people hurting [12:29.640 --> 12:31.120] on both sides of the aisle [12:31.120 --> 12:32.820] and there are people affected by this. [12:33.100 --> 12:34.760] Multiple families are affected by this. [12:35.120 --> 12:37.460] The community of Delphi has been traumatized [12:37.460 --> 12:38.180] by what happened. [12:38.260 --> 12:41.140] And I just hope that this can maybe inspire people [12:41.140 --> 12:43.760] to engage with a little bit of empathy, compassion. [12:44.180 --> 12:45.760] It's okay to have an opinion. [12:46.120 --> 12:47.040] It's okay to think, [12:47.040 --> 12:48.780] well, Richard Allen is innocent in my mind [12:48.780 --> 12:50.360] or Richard Allen is guilty in my mind. [12:50.540 --> 12:53.300] But let's at least have a little bit of open-mindedness [12:53.300 --> 12:55.300] so we can hear out all the evidence, [12:55.360 --> 12:57.060] hear out where things are. [12:58.300 --> 13:01.860] And having an opinion also needn't make us [13:01.860 --> 13:04.740] be angry or fighting with one another. [13:04.740 --> 13:06.880] We can just sort of try to come into this [13:06.880 --> 13:08.860] and extend some grace to one another, [13:08.860 --> 13:12.720] especially the people who are directly affected by this. [13:13.060 --> 13:15.680] And when it comes to family members of people [13:15.680 --> 13:18.120] who have been accused of a heinous crime, [13:19.160 --> 13:21.680] you know, this is something to keep in mind. [13:22.380 --> 13:24.860] If a person turns out to be innocent of a crime, [13:25.440 --> 13:27.920] a family is absolutely correct to stand by that person. [13:28.300 --> 13:29.260] Would you agree with that? [13:29.640 --> 13:29.880] Yes. [13:30.440 --> 13:31.740] Because they didn't do anything [13:31.740 --> 13:33.520] and they deserve that support. [13:34.220 --> 13:36.540] If relatives who stand by someone who is accused [13:36.540 --> 13:37.600] but has not been convicted, [13:37.600 --> 13:40.780] that's also fine because perhaps they're waiting to hear [13:41.240 --> 13:44.720] all the evidence, right? That also should be fine. [13:45.340 --> 13:47.340] If relatives stand by a person who turns out [13:47.340 --> 13:48.620] to be guilty is charged, [13:49.800 --> 13:52.400] then it may turn out that they didn't know things. [13:52.920 --> 13:55.240] And so, without actually sitting through the trial yet, [13:55.380 --> 13:57.040] sitting here in early October [13:57.040 --> 13:59.040] not knowing how this is all going to play out, [13:59.420 --> 14:01.160] you know, we don't know what's going to happen. [14:01.220 --> 14:02.340] We don't know what's going to come out [14:02.340 --> 14:03.780] or not come out about Richard Allen. [14:03.920 --> 14:05.620] We don't know if he's going to be acquitted [14:05.620 --> 14:07.100] or convicted or what's going to happen. [14:07.100 --> 14:10.920] But at the end of the day, I think we should extend empathy [14:10.920 --> 14:13.100] to people who might be standing by him [14:13.100 --> 14:17.080] because that's not an unreasonable thing in my mind. [14:18.020 --> 14:20.000] So I think we just need to kind of keep that in mind [14:20.000 --> 14:22.540] when we're talking about people affected by a case. [14:22.660 --> 14:25.180] It's also people who may be close to the alleged, [14:25.620 --> 14:26.960] perpetrator to the alleged, you know, [14:27.020 --> 14:28.300] to the defendant, right? [14:28.520 --> 14:28.580] Right. [14:29.600 --> 14:31.580] So, hopefully, hopefully that's helpful. [14:31.600 --> 14:33.500] And again, we really appreciate this response. [14:34.780 --> 14:36.080] Indeed. Should we move on? [14:36.160 --> 14:36.820] Let's move on. [14:37.100 --> 14:41.260] So, you remember recently, the state of Indiana, [14:41.480 --> 14:43.760] in the form of prosecutor Nick McClelland, [14:44.140 --> 14:48.060] filed a motion in Lemonay in which they requested [14:48.060 --> 14:51.080] that a witness proposed by the defense [14:51.080 --> 14:53.280] to offer testimony, William Tobin, [14:53.460 --> 14:57.220] they requested that he not be allowed to testify [14:57.220 --> 15:01.180] because he was not really an expert, in essence. [15:01.240 --> 15:02.840] That's what the argument was. [15:03.680 --> 15:07.080] The defense filed a response to that today [15:07.100 --> 15:09.700] and I'll quickly paraphrase some of that, [15:09.720 --> 15:11.980] and I don't know if you want to go into some more detail [15:11.980 --> 15:13.280] about that, we certainly can. [15:14.800 --> 15:16.640] One thing the defense said was, [15:16.960 --> 15:18.720] well, you're a ballistic expert, [15:19.060 --> 15:21.580] she's no better than someone with a high school degree. [15:22.200 --> 15:23.440] That was interesting. [15:23.780 --> 15:25.800] And then there was also a lengthy section [15:25.800 --> 15:27.240] where they said, well, we actually have [15:27.240 --> 15:29.760] two defense witnesses and the one [15:29.760 --> 15:31.600] that you're not objecting to, [15:31.880 --> 15:33.000] he thinks Tobin is great. [15:34.120 --> 15:34.640] Yeah. [15:34.880 --> 15:36.460] So that was an interesting argument. [15:37.100 --> 15:39.760] I'm really, really, really, really paraphrasing it there [15:39.760 --> 15:40.740] and cutting it to the bone. [15:40.820 --> 15:43.280] Is there any more substantive things [15:43.280 --> 15:45.440] you want to quote from those sections? [15:47.020 --> 15:49.960] Well, yeah, that mean you are cutting it to the bone, [15:49.980 --> 15:53.000] but that is essentially the gist, I would say. [15:53.920 --> 15:57.800] What they're saying is that they want Bill Tobin, [15:58.080 --> 16:01.340] who is, you know, they say he's a 27-year veteran [16:01.340 --> 16:02.840] of the Federal Bureau of Investigation [16:02.840 --> 16:05.120] with 24 years of experience at the FBI laboratory. [16:06.160 --> 16:07.840] They're saying, like, forensic metallurgy [16:08.680 --> 16:10.900] is relevant enough, and, you know, [16:11.320 --> 16:13.160] he should be able to talk about this. [16:13.600 --> 16:15.500] And what they're getting at is, like, [16:15.500 --> 16:19.060] he's going to be there to sort of speak to [16:19.060 --> 16:21.560] we shouldn't trust ballistics in general. [16:23.180 --> 16:25.760] Obviously, Dr. Eric Warren is not going to be saying [16:25.760 --> 16:28.540] that he's going to be probably just, you know, [16:28.540 --> 16:31.040] it's like they want him there to kind of almost like, [16:31.120 --> 16:34.460] they have one expert who can sort of explain this [16:34.460 --> 16:36.440] without necessarily knocking down the whole [16:36.440 --> 16:38.560] of forensic science, and this guy Tobin [16:38.560 --> 16:40.480] is supposed to be more of knocking down [16:40.480 --> 16:41.740] the whole of forensic science. [16:42.520 --> 16:44.420] And in terms of bullets, at least, [16:44.440 --> 16:46.960] in terms of tool mark identification. [16:47.900 --> 16:51.960] And, you know, the thing about it is, again, [16:52.840 --> 16:54.900] in Andrew Baldwin's recent case, [16:54.920 --> 16:56.620] and this is going to come up, Caden Smith, [16:57.260 --> 17:00.380] the judge threw out Tobin. [17:01.940 --> 17:04.000] So, you know. [17:04.000 --> 17:05.380] Yeah, let's talk about that. [17:05.400 --> 17:07.520] In the motion in lemonade that was filed [17:07.520 --> 17:10.560] by Prosecutor McClellan, he pointed out, [17:10.880 --> 17:14.300] well, Andrew, he didn't mention that this was [17:14.300 --> 17:16.860] Andrew Baldwin's case, but it was Andrew Baldwin's case, [17:16.900 --> 17:19.140] a case that Andrew Baldwin tried [17:19.140 --> 17:22.140] and actually lost with David Hennessy. [17:22.240 --> 17:24.500] And in this other case, the case of Caden Smith, [17:24.780 --> 17:26.720] they tried to have this gentleman Tobin [17:26.720 --> 17:29.280] testify in that case, and the judge said, [17:29.400 --> 17:32.020] no, he's not qualified, he can't testify. [17:32.020 --> 17:35.760] And so, Prosecutor McClellan kind of just threw that [17:35.760 --> 17:37.800] in there at the end of his motion. [17:38.000 --> 17:39.060] Felt like a bit of a needling. [17:39.580 --> 17:41.000] It felt like a bit of a needling. [17:41.460 --> 17:44.700] And there was a response to that particular needling, [17:44.840 --> 17:48.000] which I will quote from, quote, [17:48.440 --> 17:50.060] finally, the state cites the case [17:50.060 --> 17:52.260] of State of Indiana versus Caden Smith. [17:52.780 --> 17:55.400] This is a trial court case out of Marion County, [17:55.420 --> 17:56.920] which is currently up on appeal. [17:58.320 --> 18:01.140] The court's order in Smith provides very little rationale [18:01.140 --> 18:04.220] for the court's decision to exclude Mr. Tobin's testimony [18:04.760 --> 18:07.660] regarding the firearms examination process. [18:07.880 --> 18:09.420] To the extent the state wants to offer [18:09.420 --> 18:12.500] up trial court level authority to support its claim, [18:13.160 --> 18:15.000] Defendant Allen would draw the court's attention [18:15.000 --> 18:17.480] to the case of People of the State of Illinois [18:17.480 --> 18:20.560] versus Ricky Winfield, a circuit court case [18:20.560 --> 18:25.220] out of Cook County, Illinois. [18:25.580 --> 18:27.500] The Winfield decision was handed down [18:27.500 --> 18:29.480] on February 8th, 2023. [18:29.480 --> 18:31.700] The court in Winfield was critical [18:31.700 --> 18:34.640] of the discipline of firearms identification altogether. [18:35.200 --> 18:37.000] The court ultimately drew the conclusion [18:37.000 --> 18:38.880] that the state was entirely prohibited [18:38.880 --> 18:41.600] from introducing any testimony from their alleged experts [18:41.600 --> 18:45.700] regarding firearm identification specific to the case. [18:46.280 --> 18:48.920] Judge Hook's rationale was articulated [18:48.920 --> 18:51.520] over in a 41-page opinion. [18:51.680 --> 18:53.360] The Smith case offered up by the state [18:53.360 --> 18:54.820] offers no such analysis. [18:55.480 --> 18:58.400] So that's basically lawyer speak was, [18:58.400 --> 19:00.640] I'm really upset that you mentioned my case. [19:01.400 --> 19:03.880] There's a case in Illinois with a judge real differently. [19:05.660 --> 19:08.160] The Illinois case is an Illinois case, [19:08.160 --> 19:11.460] so I'm not even sure how much relevance it has [19:11.460 --> 19:13.300] to the state of Indiana. [19:14.320 --> 19:19.220] That said, it is a very interesting case. [19:19.760 --> 19:24.100] It is a case which could reflect a change [19:24.100 --> 19:27.340] in the way criminal courts in general [19:27.340 --> 19:28.980] start handling ballistics evidence, [19:29.120 --> 19:30.320] or it could just be an outlier. [19:30.800 --> 19:33.640] It could just be a one-off that we don't see [19:33.640 --> 19:35.520] leading to anything further. [19:36.460 --> 19:39.420] Yeah, I mean, let's contextualize this. [19:39.960 --> 19:44.220] First of all, I wanna mention we do try on this show [19:44.220 --> 19:47.700] to bring you relevant, in-depth information, [19:48.020 --> 19:50.140] and sometimes we even get ahead of ourselves [19:50.140 --> 19:51.700] and bring you this information [19:51.700 --> 19:56.200] before it may be readily apparent why it's important. [19:56.200 --> 20:00.140] So I do want to mention if you want a deep dive [20:00.140 --> 20:02.360] on this Winfield case, [20:02.360 --> 20:05.500] we actually covered it in-depth like a year ago. [20:06.060 --> 20:07.420] We're like the oracles at Delphi. [20:07.500 --> 20:09.360] I'm not trying to brag, but I feel like [20:09.360 --> 20:12.060] all these random things that we end up covering [20:12.060 --> 20:14.280] then somehow circle back around [20:14.280 --> 20:16.260] and become relevant later on. [20:16.680 --> 20:18.760] I don't, well, let's just, I mean, [20:19.140 --> 20:20.940] I wanna say I don't know why that keeps happening, [20:21.020 --> 20:23.220] but maybe we're just... [20:23.220 --> 20:25.640] Well, I don't think you need to be... [20:25.640 --> 20:27.660] I don't think you need to be a genius [20:27.660 --> 20:29.780] to realize defense attorneys, [20:29.960 --> 20:31.640] if they find a case which says [20:31.640 --> 20:33.440] all ballistics evidence is bad, [20:33.960 --> 20:36.480] and you have a case where there's ballistics evidence, [20:36.520 --> 20:37.700] which we have in Delphi, [20:37.940 --> 20:39.200] you don't have to be a genius to say, [20:39.460 --> 20:41.800] well, I bet the defense attorney at some point [20:41.800 --> 20:44.200] is going to try to figure out a way to cite this case. [20:44.400 --> 20:45.540] I mean, I just go back to that. [20:45.540 --> 20:47.160] Remember that moment early on [20:47.160 --> 20:50.480] where Brad Rosie was citing all these like, [20:50.540 --> 20:53.200] and then in Maryland, and then in Illinois, [20:53.200 --> 20:56.060] and Judge Francis Gull, and it was like, [20:56.080 --> 20:57.540] do you have any Indiana law? [20:57.900 --> 21:00.260] And it was like, oh, like, I mean, [21:00.460 --> 21:04.340] I think there's generally a trend where there has over, [21:04.360 --> 21:06.840] and they cite this in this filing, and it's all true. [21:07.060 --> 21:10.500] There's been a trend where there have been a scrutiny, [21:10.660 --> 21:13.320] a newfound scrutiny against tool mark identification. [21:14.040 --> 21:16.280] There have been a lot of changes [21:16.280 --> 21:19.060] to how forensics examiners in many courts [21:19.060 --> 21:21.340] talk about that, where it's less definitive, [21:21.340 --> 21:24.180] and it's more scientific. [21:24.880 --> 21:27.260] And some people think, some people, [21:27.400 --> 21:28.980] especially around the forensic science area, [21:29.100 --> 21:31.140] they might think, well, that's enough. [21:31.280 --> 21:32.580] Like, we've made those changes, [21:32.620 --> 21:34.200] and now it is much more reliable. [21:35.180 --> 21:37.380] Others, like journalist Radley Balko, [21:37.480 --> 21:38.860] who he interviewed about this, [21:39.020 --> 21:43.020] that specific case, you know, in that episode, [21:43.760 --> 21:45.800] he, I don't think thinks it's gone far enough. [21:45.840 --> 21:46.780] So there's a debate. [21:47.620 --> 21:50.840] There's a people on both sides who are disagreeing, [21:50.840 --> 21:52.600] and we're not really weighing in on what we think. [21:52.740 --> 21:54.160] It's just we're more presenting to you [21:54.160 --> 21:55.860] that people are debating this. [21:56.300 --> 21:59.440] Whether or not, it remains to be seen, though, [21:59.540 --> 22:02.820] I think, whether or not the more sort of extreme side [22:02.820 --> 22:05.420] of things on either side will win out, [22:05.580 --> 22:07.520] or whether we're just kind of in a new mode [22:07.520 --> 22:09.780] where it's like, okay, we've kind of, you know, [22:09.780 --> 22:12.080] we might not talk up forensics as, like, [22:12.080 --> 22:13.460] it definitely matches this gun. [22:13.580 --> 22:14.320] It might be more of like, [22:14.440 --> 22:17.480] it is not dissimilar to this weapon. [22:17.800 --> 22:20.160] So I think that's important to note. [22:20.160 --> 22:21.960] And it makes sense for the defense [22:21.960 --> 22:23.200] to be harkening to one thing [22:23.200 --> 22:25.040] and the prosecution to be harkening to the other. [22:25.660 --> 22:28.440] And again, if you want a deep dive on that case in particular, [22:28.560 --> 22:29.820] it's an interesting case. [22:30.000 --> 22:31.080] It could be a bellwether. [22:31.180 --> 22:32.280] It could be a complete outlier. [22:32.720 --> 22:34.800] Who knows? I think Anja's the one [22:34.800 --> 22:36.620] that's going to prepare the notes for this episode. [22:36.840 --> 22:38.720] Anja, will you include a link in the notes [22:38.720 --> 22:39.880] to that earlier episode? [22:39.960 --> 22:40.600] I shall. [22:42.380 --> 22:44.360] Anything more to say about this document? [22:44.560 --> 22:47.020] No, I mean, it seems like a, it seems like, [22:47.020 --> 22:49.760] from my perspective, that this is an argument [22:49.760 --> 22:52.120] from the defense that makes sense for their case. [22:52.480 --> 22:53.500] They're going to be attacking [22:53.500 --> 22:55.820] the state's forensics examiner. [22:56.960 --> 22:59.300] I don't know that Tobin gets in, frankly, [22:59.440 --> 23:01.680] because it seems like they could just cross-examine [23:01.680 --> 23:05.060] the state's examiner and, you know, but, you know, [23:05.100 --> 23:06.840] it seems reasonable for them to ask for that. [23:07.220 --> 23:09.940] And, you know, I don't, I don't necessarily think [23:09.940 --> 23:12.100] what we've seen in the past that an Illinois case [23:12.100 --> 23:13.760] is going to carry the day here, though. [23:14.580 --> 23:16.500] Yes. Should we move on? [23:16.940 --> 23:17.420] Yes. [23:17.420 --> 23:22.560] So, let's go back for a moment and talk about, [23:22.560 --> 23:24.020] a little bit about Todd Click. [23:24.600 --> 23:27.560] And we're going to talk about some of the online discussion [23:27.560 --> 23:32.340] that has occurred since our episode was released, [23:32.420 --> 23:34.620] which broke the news that Todd Click [23:34.620 --> 23:36.100] had indeed been arrested. [23:36.600 --> 23:40.480] We don't often respond to some of this online nonsense, [23:40.700 --> 23:43.900] but I think as the trial approaches, [23:43.900 --> 23:48.600] I think it is instructive to look at some of this stuff [23:48.600 --> 23:52.560] and just realize how far off people can be, [23:53.180 --> 23:57.040] even people who purportedly are attorneys themselves [23:57.040 --> 23:58.180] or at least claim to be. [23:58.680 --> 24:05.420] So, one thing I heard was that obviously Anya and I [24:05.420 --> 24:08.940] must have gotten some sort of secret inside information [24:08.940 --> 24:11.660] about this Todd Click arrest. [24:11.660 --> 24:15.060] That's the only way we possibly could have gotten it. [24:15.600 --> 24:17.140] Who knows, maybe Doug Carter himself [24:17.480 --> 24:18.720] sent us a telegram or something. [24:18.720 --> 24:20.060] That signal in the sky. [24:20.720 --> 24:23.040] So, this is actually an instance [24:23.040 --> 24:26.780] where I got permission to share with you all [24:26.780 --> 24:30.660] how we got this information and who the source was. [24:31.260 --> 24:34.320] The source was a listener named Mindy [24:34.320 --> 24:36.840] who just saw that this was public information [24:36.840 --> 24:38.740] and she sent it to us and said, hey, look at this. [24:38.880 --> 24:39.600] Thank you, Mindy. [24:39.600 --> 24:41.820] We love you and we appreciate it. [24:42.340 --> 24:45.880] And we looked at it and all the documents were there [24:45.880 --> 24:48.440] and we said, golly, let's quickly do an episode. [24:48.440 --> 24:49.180] And we did. [24:49.320 --> 24:51.660] Just to give you some sense on the journalistic process, [24:51.760 --> 24:53.080] when you get a tip from someone, [24:53.220 --> 24:54.200] it might be totally true, [24:54.220 --> 24:55.700] but you can't always run with it immediately. [24:56.560 --> 24:58.540] If Mindy or if anyone sends us, [24:58.800 --> 25:00.140] hey, Todd Click just got arrested [25:00.140 --> 25:02.160] and there's nothing on my case, [25:02.260 --> 25:04.360] then we're not gonna run with it [25:04.360 --> 25:06.060] because that's not corroborated. [25:06.100 --> 25:08.060] It might be true, but we have to sit on it [25:08.060 --> 25:09.300] until we get corroboration. [25:09.300 --> 25:10.800] But when someone tells you something [25:10.800 --> 25:12.960] and you look on my case and it's all up, [25:12.960 --> 25:15.040] then yes, we are going to be able to report on that quickly. [25:15.400 --> 25:18.180] One of my favorite conspiracy theories [25:18.180 --> 25:19.620] with this particular situation, [25:19.620 --> 25:20.680] and again, we're talking about this [25:20.680 --> 25:21.580] because it's instructive [25:21.580 --> 25:23.280] and it's something we want you all to be aware of [25:23.280 --> 25:25.280] for trial because this is gonna keep happening. [25:25.780 --> 25:28.420] But one of my favorite things was somebody was like, [25:28.560 --> 25:31.840] they had this smooth episode ready to go. [25:32.180 --> 25:35.000] And it's like, thank you for the compliment. [25:35.300 --> 25:38.100] This is something we do for our full-time jobs. [25:38.100 --> 25:40.500] So we have all the time in the world to deal with it. [25:40.740 --> 25:45.660] And when you have PCAs at the drop ready to go, [25:45.960 --> 25:49.120] it's very easy for us to put together an episode [25:49.120 --> 25:50.160] rather quickly. [25:50.460 --> 25:52.680] That's kind of the nature of podcasting. [25:52.900 --> 25:55.380] We don't need to fire up the printing press. [25:55.860 --> 25:57.240] So I just thought that was delightful [25:57.240 --> 25:59.520] because some of these kind of conspiratorial things [25:59.520 --> 26:00.460] were actually compliments. [26:01.540 --> 26:05.720] The other one was that, oh, golly, [26:06.380 --> 26:09.560] it says here on my case that at some point [26:09.560 --> 26:11.920] this PCA was sealed. [26:12.380 --> 26:16.620] So the murder sheet must have acquired this PCA [26:16.620 --> 26:18.500] through some nefarious purpose. [26:18.960 --> 26:20.840] And that alone proves a conspiracy. [26:20.940 --> 26:22.840] And I found it especially interesting [26:22.840 --> 26:24.800] because there is a group online [26:25.200 --> 26:26.980] that is populated by many people [26:26.980 --> 26:28.180] who say they are lawyers. [26:28.440 --> 26:31.400] And they refuse to post the PCA [26:31.400 --> 26:33.720] because they said, oh, by gum, it's sealed [26:33.720 --> 26:35.980] and it's wrong to post a sealed document. [26:36.060 --> 26:37.840] Profiles encourage, you know, [26:37.940 --> 26:39.960] and love to see that from the people [26:39.960 --> 26:42.080] who got their JDs from the University of Reddit. [26:42.860 --> 26:49.680] But I want to, because I just want to make it clear [26:49.680 --> 26:51.020] because it's possible that some of you [26:51.020 --> 26:52.780] may have encountered some of this information [26:52.780 --> 26:55.900] and been confused by it. [26:56.280 --> 27:00.080] And again, this is to encourage you to be skeptical [27:00.500 --> 27:01.960] when you see things online, [27:01.960 --> 27:03.900] whether they're about us or about others. [27:03.900 --> 27:05.560] Or about anything, literally anything. [27:05.680 --> 27:07.180] People do not know what they're talking about. [27:07.900 --> 27:10.040] These documents were not sealed on Friday [27:10.040 --> 27:13.100] when we released them, they were not sealed. [27:13.520 --> 27:18.960] So what happens is often when a warrant is issued [27:18.960 --> 27:22.520] and a PCA is filed to secure that warrant, [27:23.380 --> 27:26.960] often that document is sealed temporarily. [27:27.040 --> 27:28.200] And the reason for that is, [27:28.620 --> 27:31.680] let's say the police have finally gotten tired [27:31.680 --> 27:34.380] of Anya's serial stealing antics [27:34.380 --> 27:38.700] and they prepare a PCA and a warrant for her arrest. [27:39.140 --> 27:43.100] If they put, if they publish that warrant on my case, [27:43.680 --> 27:45.920] where anyone in the world can see it [27:45.920 --> 27:47.540] and let Anya know about it, [27:47.860 --> 27:49.400] there is every chance in the world [27:49.400 --> 27:51.360] that Anya gets that information, [27:51.460 --> 27:52.920] she flees the jurisdiction, [27:53.660 --> 27:54.600] or God knows what else Anya's. [27:54.600 --> 27:57.720] Takes hostages, barricades myself, [27:57.820 --> 28:00.640] gets into a shootout with the police, all over serial. [28:00.640 --> 28:07.860] So often, often you will see that judges will seal a warrant [28:07.860 --> 28:11.640] and seal a PCA and when they do so, [28:11.660 --> 28:14.200] they will include language to the effect [28:14.200 --> 28:16.480] that the seal will be lifted [28:16.480 --> 28:19.940] once the person in question is in custody. [28:20.000 --> 28:21.540] Can I read the document on this? [28:21.900 --> 28:22.980] And so that's what happened. [28:23.360 --> 28:26.180] As soon as Todd Click was in custody, [28:27.000 --> 28:28.960] the seal was lifted, it became public, [28:29.020 --> 28:30.140] that's how we got it. [28:30.140 --> 28:32.500] And if you doubt me, Anya is going to read [28:32.500 --> 28:33.480] the actual document. [28:34.020 --> 28:35.680] Quote, motion to seal arrest warrant, [28:35.920 --> 28:38.320] probable cause affidavit, and charging information. [28:38.840 --> 28:41.740] Comes now the state of Indiana 80th Judicial Circuit [28:41.740 --> 28:44.660] by prosecuting attorney Richard J. Hurtle [28:44.660 --> 28:48.860] and pursuant to IC 353411D, [28:49.140 --> 28:51.660] respectfully requests the court seal the arrest warrant, [28:52.160 --> 28:54.740] probable cause affidavit, and charging information. [28:55.320 --> 28:57.700] The state is requesting that said documents be sealed [28:57.700 --> 29:00.120] due to the nature and circumstances of the crime. [29:00.140 --> 29:03.860] Further, the state requests that this matter be unsealed [29:03.860 --> 29:05.700] upon the arrest of the defendant, [29:06.360 --> 29:09.900] Richard J. Hurtle, prosecuting attorney, end quote. [29:11.120 --> 29:12.380] So that's very, very clear. [29:13.220 --> 29:14.400] It's basically what I said, [29:14.760 --> 29:16.840] let's seal it until he's arrested, [29:16.900 --> 29:18.520] once he's arrested, it is public. [29:19.560 --> 29:21.160] We, Mindy saw it when it was public. [29:21.260 --> 29:23.620] We saw it when it was public. [29:24.420 --> 29:27.960] So it kind of makes me wonder if these people [29:27.960 --> 29:30.120] who say they are lawyers and who are sealing it, [29:30.120 --> 29:31.620] and not releasing it on Reddit, [29:32.180 --> 29:33.720] if they really are attorneys at all. [29:33.840 --> 29:35.680] Let me just, well yeah, go ahead. [29:36.200 --> 29:39.460] And I think it's important to keep in mind, [29:39.480 --> 29:40.720] as we were mentioning earlier, [29:41.420 --> 29:43.600] everybody in this case is human beings, [29:44.400 --> 29:45.500] and whether it's about us, [29:45.520 --> 29:47.780] whether it's about other people in the case, [29:48.560 --> 29:52.760] maybe don't just start blindly attacking [29:52.760 --> 29:56.720] or making assumptions unless you really know for sure [29:56.720 --> 29:58.000] what you're talking about. [29:58.560 --> 30:00.400] That's a good lesson in life, I think. [30:00.560 --> 30:02.440] And listen, I mean, I think all of us [30:02.440 --> 30:04.040] have been in a situation where we see something, [30:04.240 --> 30:05.780] it ticks us off, especially online, [30:06.060 --> 30:07.840] and we want to say something, we want to act, [30:07.920 --> 30:10.680] we want to, you know, kind of get your hackles up. [30:11.140 --> 30:14.060] And, you know, that's human, and to err is human. [30:14.640 --> 30:17.020] But, you know, there's no penalty [30:17.020 --> 30:18.600] in just kind of holding off, [30:18.640 --> 30:20.000] looking into things a little bit more [30:20.000 --> 30:21.040] and getting your facts straight [30:21.040 --> 30:22.760] before you comment or say anything. [30:23.280 --> 30:25.120] You know, I would say that that's usually prudent [30:25.120 --> 30:26.640] to not be impulsive like that. [30:26.640 --> 30:28.580] And I mean, I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt [30:28.580 --> 30:29.360] to a certain extent. [30:29.680 --> 30:30.820] Reading legal documents [30:30.820 --> 30:32.840] and understanding the legal process is difficult. [30:33.180 --> 30:35.340] I'm somebody, I don't have a JD, I'm not a lawyer. [30:35.620 --> 30:38.660] I'm a journalist, I work with an attorney here, [30:39.200 --> 30:40.900] and I'm fortunate enough to be married to one, [30:40.960 --> 30:43.320] so Kevin is here to often explain things to me [30:43.320 --> 30:44.240] that I don't understand. [30:44.600 --> 30:46.020] And I think over time, [30:46.120 --> 30:49.100] as I've read more and more legal filings, [30:49.220 --> 30:50.640] I've gotten a little bit better, [30:50.720 --> 30:51.700] I'm not perfect at it, [30:51.700 --> 30:52.680] but I've gotten a little bit better [30:52.680 --> 30:54.940] at trying to parse some understanding from them, [30:54.940 --> 30:57.120] because it can be difficult to read legalese, [30:57.400 --> 31:00.200] it can be difficult to read very dry, long documents [31:00.200 --> 31:03.280] where it's not a light reading, [31:04.440 --> 31:07.980] it's not reading like a fun, pulpy magazine article. [31:08.540 --> 31:12.960] It's dry, it can be difficult to get through. [31:14.640 --> 31:16.400] And things are not always, [31:16.400 --> 31:18.040] it's almost like a separate language [31:18.040 --> 31:20.740] that lawyers learn in law school [31:20.740 --> 31:22.700] where they kind of are kind of trained [31:22.700 --> 31:24.160] in order to read that. [31:24.160 --> 31:26.400] And so I'm not denigrating anybody [31:26.400 --> 31:28.500] for not understanding things, [31:28.920 --> 31:30.480] or getting things wrong at first, [31:30.620 --> 31:31.920] or coming to the wrong conclusion, [31:31.980 --> 31:33.600] because goodness knows I've been there. [31:33.920 --> 31:36.700] But the thing that can separate people [31:36.700 --> 31:38.420] who are doing a decent job [31:38.420 --> 31:40.880] from those who are frankly spreading misinformation [31:40.880 --> 31:44.620] is checking and maybe holding off commenting [31:44.620 --> 31:47.100] before you fully grasp the facts. [31:47.480 --> 31:50.200] Because this kind of thing is unfortunately [31:50.200 --> 31:52.460] going to just happen again and again at trial, [31:52.540 --> 31:53.520] where you have a bunch of people [31:53.520 --> 31:54.720] who claim to be lawyers, [31:54.780 --> 31:56.720] but frankly certainly don't appear [31:56.720 --> 31:58.140] to have any legal knowledge, [31:59.260 --> 32:00.800] or frankly people who are lawyers, [32:00.800 --> 32:03.820] but are for some reason rooting so heavily [32:03.820 --> 32:05.540] for one side that they're going to just basically [32:05.540 --> 32:08.020] discard anything that they perceive [32:08.540 --> 32:11.640] as not good for their personal legal football team. [32:13.020 --> 32:15.280] And that doesn't really benefit the public, [32:15.300 --> 32:18.120] it doesn't benefit anybody, it's just lies. [32:19.960 --> 32:22.120] It's lies, it's misperceptions, [32:22.120 --> 32:26.580] it's wrong, and like I would just ask, [32:28.000 --> 32:30.160] if you feel like you're so right, [32:30.180 --> 32:32.080] why do people constantly feel the need [32:32.080 --> 32:33.100] to spread misinformation? [32:33.760 --> 32:35.780] It doesn't really engender much confidence. [32:36.200 --> 32:37.020] It doesn't. [32:37.460 --> 32:39.780] And again, it's not necessary [32:39.780 --> 32:42.960] because I think anybody in this case, [32:43.400 --> 32:44.480] in this specific instance, [32:44.780 --> 32:46.660] anybody with any sort of reading comprehension [32:46.660 --> 32:48.520] can look at all of the filings [32:48.520 --> 32:50.720] and figure out very quickly [32:50.720 --> 32:53.100] why we were able to see this on Friday [32:53.100 --> 32:55.900] is because Todd Click was already arrested at that point. [32:56.700 --> 32:58.020] Yeah, he was already in custody. [32:58.160 --> 33:00.460] He was in custody, so they would be unsealed. [33:00.720 --> 33:03.660] It's not, here's- [33:03.660 --> 33:06.760] And again, I explained why the warrants and stuff [33:06.760 --> 33:07.880] are sealed temporarily. [33:07.940 --> 33:11.360] It's not about preventing transparency [33:11.360 --> 33:14.220] or public access, it's just about making sure [33:14.220 --> 33:17.020] that the person involved doesn't get a tip off. [33:17.320 --> 33:19.660] This is a quote I saw somewhere [33:19.660 --> 33:24.240] on social media once, and it's been truly in my head [33:24.240 --> 33:25.440] as we go into this trial. [33:25.980 --> 33:27.880] And I may be paraphrasing it, [33:27.880 --> 33:29.200] but I didn't make this up. [33:29.300 --> 33:30.260] I saw this floating around there, [33:30.260 --> 33:31.940] but I think it's applicable here. [33:32.880 --> 33:35.220] Everything looks like a conspiracy [33:35.220 --> 33:39.340] when you don't know how anything works, okay? [33:39.760 --> 33:43.000] I'm a person where I'm extremely bad [33:43.000 --> 33:46.820] at math, science-related topics, okay? [33:47.140 --> 33:49.500] I think if you put me in the middle of a situation [33:49.500 --> 33:51.300] where you were explaining a bunch of those concepts [33:51.300 --> 33:53.160] or explaining concepts related, [33:53.780 --> 33:56.680] where understanding of math and science would carry the day, [33:56.980 --> 33:58.440] I would probably be lost, [33:58.440 --> 34:01.640] and it would be very easy for me in my ignorance [34:01.640 --> 34:03.720] to say, like, well, this doesn't make any sense. [34:03.740 --> 34:05.800] I just think it's magic, you know? [34:06.100 --> 34:07.660] But that doesn't make that true. [34:07.760 --> 34:10.460] It's just my own ignorance, my lack of understanding [34:10.460 --> 34:12.580] that would prompt me to say that. [34:13.180 --> 34:16.940] And I think that people feel that the legal field [34:16.940 --> 34:20.060] and law and order and criminal justice, [34:20.600 --> 34:23.140] our criminal legal system is more accessible [34:23.140 --> 34:26.800] because it's something we consume a lot of [34:26.800 --> 34:29.980] through true crime or through fiction, frankly, [34:30.240 --> 34:32.080] and it makes it seem more accessible [34:32.080 --> 34:34.100] that those concepts are easy to grasp. [34:34.280 --> 34:35.980] And to an extent, that's correct. [34:36.140 --> 34:37.580] It's certainly graspable. [34:37.960 --> 34:41.940] But I think there is still a lot of lack of understanding [34:41.940 --> 34:44.140] about why certain things are the way they are [34:44.140 --> 34:46.120] or how everything specifically works. [34:46.120 --> 34:49.600] And that can lead people to just jump to conclusions [34:49.600 --> 34:52.140] and decide, well, I don't like this, [34:52.140 --> 34:53.720] so it's a conspiracy. [34:54.040 --> 34:58.480] And that's not helpful because frankly, if you do that [34:58.480 --> 35:02.040] and you're actually missing an opportunity [35:02.040 --> 35:04.380] to make relevant legal critiques [35:04.380 --> 35:07.580] or relevant critiques of our system that maybe are valid, [35:08.520 --> 35:11.660] but when it's just like this kind of born out of lack [35:11.660 --> 35:14.460] of understanding and everything becomes a whole conspiracy, [35:14.460 --> 35:18.420] that doesn't do anything for anyone, right? [35:18.580 --> 35:22.940] I mean, but again, when you don't know how anything works, [35:23.220 --> 35:24.780] everything looks like a conspiracy. [35:25.260 --> 35:28.120] So it's better to be armed with the facts, [35:28.420 --> 35:29.640] learn about how stuff works, [35:29.640 --> 35:31.180] and then maybe you can point out, [35:31.200 --> 35:32.880] hey, this doesn't seem right though, [35:33.340 --> 35:34.380] because you're based on that. [35:34.380 --> 35:37.300] You're at that platform of understanding beneath your feet. [35:37.420 --> 35:40.270] You got a solid foundation, but when it's just like, [35:40.760 --> 35:43.960] you know, the murder sheet unsealed the documents [35:43.960 --> 35:47.920] with their odinous connections, you know, no. [35:49.220 --> 35:52.740] And again, this isn't the most egregious example [35:52.740 --> 35:54.960] of how this has happened to us or to others. [35:55.460 --> 35:56.940] We're just using this as an example. [35:57.140 --> 35:58.860] Please keep this in mind when you see stuff [35:58.860 --> 36:00.640] either about us or others. [36:01.080 --> 36:02.440] Ask yourself, is this fair? [36:02.780 --> 36:05.400] Do these people seem to know what they are talking about? [36:05.400 --> 36:07.800] Yeah, the trial, think about it for the trial [36:07.800 --> 36:10.060] because we're gonna be busy covering the trial [36:10.060 --> 36:12.940] and we're not gonna be looking [36:12.940 --> 36:15.640] at any of this other stuff for the most part, I hope, [36:16.080 --> 36:17.800] unless it gets really egregious. [36:17.840 --> 36:20.420] But you should be aware that there are going to be [36:20.420 --> 36:23.200] a legion of people who are just saying whatever. [36:23.400 --> 36:25.200] They're just gonna pop off and say, [36:25.900 --> 36:29.260] you know, storm the Bastille because it's all wrong. [36:29.700 --> 36:32.560] And, you know, I mean, maybe they'll be right [36:32.560 --> 36:34.540] or most likely they will not be right. [36:35.860 --> 36:37.800] My guess is that it's probably gonna be [36:37.800 --> 36:41.160] a lot of misinformation in the case going on, [36:41.320 --> 36:42.660] swirling online at this time. [36:42.660 --> 36:44.660] And ask yourself, do these people seem to be doing [36:44.660 --> 36:46.980] what, frankly, we tried to do with Cassie Allen [36:46.980 --> 36:48.760] at the top of this program, which was, [36:48.980 --> 36:50.480] before we spread a story, [36:50.560 --> 36:52.020] we tried to find out if it was true. [36:52.300 --> 36:55.080] It's always good to pause and ask the people [36:55.080 --> 36:56.120] who are actually involved. [36:56.320 --> 36:57.340] And a lot of people don't do that [36:57.340 --> 36:58.260] because, frankly, they're shy. [36:58.320 --> 36:59.900] They don't want to actually approach us and say, [36:59.940 --> 37:01.960] did you guys steal the PCA in this? [37:02.500 --> 37:05.980] You know, because they, or they just don't care [37:05.980 --> 37:06.860] about the truth at all. [37:07.260 --> 37:08.920] But, you know, you can always, [37:09.160 --> 37:11.000] people can do that as well. [37:11.550 --> 37:12.740] I got nothing more on this. [37:12.760 --> 37:13.440] Do you want to move on? [37:14.140 --> 37:15.580] Yeah, this is kind of related, [37:16.240 --> 37:18.240] but I just, in terms of, [37:18.560 --> 37:20.940] let's do some scene setting before the trial. [37:22.780 --> 37:24.580] We've seen, you know, this rise [37:24.580 --> 37:26.620] of the conspiracy theorists in this case, [37:26.660 --> 37:29.420] but we should also note that there are people [37:29.420 --> 37:31.740] who sort of present themselves as experts, [37:32.220 --> 37:34.180] attorneys, you know, even journalists, [37:35.020 --> 37:38.080] people who, you know, you might think have credibility, [37:38.080 --> 37:38.220] but there are people who have the ability [37:38.220 --> 37:40.520] who get sucked into this madness. [37:41.600 --> 37:43.380] And the thing that I think about, [37:43.480 --> 37:44.920] I'm gonna go on a little non-suckwater here, [37:45.000 --> 37:46.840] but I remember, and like when I was in college, [37:46.860 --> 37:49.600] I'm dating myself here, but when I was in college, [37:50.240 --> 37:52.480] the John Oliver show came out on HBO. [37:53.000 --> 37:56.220] And the reason I bring that up is because I remember, [37:56.300 --> 37:57.540] you know, people would be watching it [37:57.540 --> 37:59.440] and I really liked the theme song. [38:00.080 --> 38:01.540] So I downloaded it. [38:01.560 --> 38:03.440] It's a song called Go by Valley Lodge. [38:03.720 --> 38:05.480] I thought it was just kind of a fun jangly song. [38:06.220 --> 38:08.060] And as I do when I like a song, [38:08.080 --> 38:10.800] I listen to like, I listen to it like a thousand times. [38:12.620 --> 38:14.800] And the lyrics that stick with me are, [38:15.620 --> 38:17.080] tell me what I wanna hear [38:17.080 --> 38:18.560] and I'll tell you that you're beautiful. [38:19.020 --> 38:21.440] That is the dynamic we see again and again [38:21.440 --> 38:23.680] when we see people who do have actually relevant [38:23.680 --> 38:25.260] experience and things to say, [38:25.520 --> 38:28.600] who then sort of get sucked into the conspiratorial mode. [38:29.040 --> 38:30.720] There's a lot of flattery that goes on. [38:31.040 --> 38:32.820] You see journalists who cover something [38:32.820 --> 38:34.200] that the conspiracy theorists like, [38:34.240 --> 38:36.520] and then suddenly they're being talked about [38:36.520 --> 38:37.820] like they're Woodward and Bernstein. [38:37.820 --> 38:39.560] They're being messaged, they're being flattered, [38:39.700 --> 38:40.840] they're being courted. [38:41.880 --> 38:44.140] And it's because they're telling these people [38:44.140 --> 38:44.900] what they wanna hear. [38:45.500 --> 38:48.230] So, you know, they get subjected to that kind of, [38:48.640 --> 38:49.860] being told that they're beautiful. [38:50.700 --> 38:53.380] And that does not work on everyone to be clear. [38:53.620 --> 38:56.000] Most people I think skeptical enough to avoid that. [38:56.400 --> 38:58.760] But for some, we've noticed, [38:58.780 --> 39:00.500] and we've noticed this certainly in Delphi, [39:00.640 --> 39:02.920] there's what I would call flattery jacking, [39:03.620 --> 39:05.980] where it's like you get hijacked with flattery. [39:05.980 --> 39:08.480] Perhaps your skepticism gets switched off. [39:08.660 --> 39:12.820] Perhaps you just start courting this praise even more and more. [39:13.360 --> 39:16.660] And I think we should be also aware of that, [39:16.680 --> 39:19.540] where people will be allowing their own expertise [39:19.540 --> 39:22.420] and their own credibility to be hijacked [39:22.420 --> 39:25.640] by what is essentially conspiracy theorists. [39:26.200 --> 39:29.400] And so being aware of like, could that be happening? [39:29.540 --> 39:33.460] Is this person, you know, now suddenly howling around online [39:33.460 --> 39:35.600] with a bunch of people who are behaving poorly? [39:35.600 --> 39:38.100] Are they allowing themselves to be essentially hijacked [39:38.100 --> 39:40.540] in order to spread the narrative [39:40.540 --> 39:41.740] that they're being asked to spread? [39:42.140 --> 39:45.100] I think those are things to look at, [39:45.200 --> 39:48.060] because I find it very concerning and always baffling, [39:48.200 --> 39:49.920] because it's like this person ought to know better. [39:49.940 --> 39:50.940] Why are they doing this? [39:50.980 --> 39:53.460] And then you see like their comment section is like, [39:53.520 --> 39:56.220] oh my God, you're the only truth teller. [39:56.220 --> 39:58.260] I love you. I'll name my firstborn after you. [39:58.300 --> 40:01.060] And it's like, oh, okay, now I see what's happening. [40:01.660 --> 40:03.820] You know, it's nice to be praised [40:03.820 --> 40:05.120] and it's nice to be recognized. [40:05.120 --> 40:09.240] But there are people who will actually just destroy [40:09.240 --> 40:12.200] their own credibility and siphon away their credibility [40:12.200 --> 40:14.400] in order to kind of keep that gravy train going. [40:14.800 --> 40:17.340] And I think we should be aware of that going into trial. [40:18.860 --> 40:22.220] And be careful where you get information generally, you know? [40:22.360 --> 40:25.540] I mean, be really careful because it's going to be, [40:25.940 --> 40:27.840] I think it's going to be really bad out there. [40:28.200 --> 40:31.060] The worst thing you can do to people who are doing a bad job [40:31.060 --> 40:33.620] and spreading misinformation is completely ignore them, [40:33.620 --> 40:36.700] block them, do not click on anything they put out there. [40:37.120 --> 40:41.460] Just don't reward bad actions with your attention, your time, [40:41.820 --> 40:43.260] because your time is money to them. [40:43.760 --> 40:46.760] And your attention, even if they're not making that much money, [40:46.900 --> 40:49.100] is a huge gratifier for them. [40:49.460 --> 40:52.880] They're not paying attention to the hate clicks. [40:53.640 --> 40:56.920] They don't, YouTube doesn't like split up clicks into like, [40:57.120 --> 40:58.640] these are the people who genuinely agree with you [40:58.640 --> 41:00.140] and these are the people who think you're a fool [41:00.140 --> 41:01.540] and like to watch the spectacle. [41:02.620 --> 41:03.640] It's all just clicks. [41:03.840 --> 41:04.400] All the same. [41:06.100 --> 41:09.120] And, you know, I think we should say what we think [41:09.120 --> 41:10.880] about the trial management strategy [41:10.880 --> 41:13.040] in terms of people getting seats, [41:13.100 --> 41:14.480] because a lot of people have asked us like, [41:14.500 --> 41:15.240] what should we do? [41:16.340 --> 41:18.080] I'll say this about the trial management system. [41:18.180 --> 41:20.960] Well, without even getting into like what we, [41:21.640 --> 41:23.160] like, there's not going to be a lot of seats. [41:23.920 --> 41:24.900] Yes, I was going to say, [41:25.040 --> 41:26.700] what I was going to say was, I don't like it. [41:26.980 --> 41:29.220] Well, it's just, there's not going to be a lot of seats. [41:29.220 --> 41:32.200] There's going to be very few seats. [41:32.640 --> 41:36.040] I hear different numbers, maybe around 20 seats [41:36.040 --> 41:37.620] might be available for the public. [41:37.900 --> 41:38.080] Maybe. [41:38.480 --> 41:41.460] It's not clear who's going to get press passes, [41:41.600 --> 41:42.360] who's not. [41:42.420 --> 41:43.380] It's all up in the air. [41:43.840 --> 41:47.160] I think the odds are, [41:47.280 --> 41:52.120] even if people come to Delphi and try, [41:53.260 --> 41:54.980] there's an excellent chance you're not going to get in. [41:55.740 --> 41:57.960] There's an excellent chance you will be very disappointed. [41:57.960 --> 42:00.300] And we, you know, I wish it were different. [42:00.460 --> 42:02.620] I wish there was a different thing we could say [42:02.620 --> 42:03.880] and like, oh, there'll be, [42:03.920 --> 42:05.660] it'll be streamed to a different location [42:05.660 --> 42:06.720] and there'll be more seats there. [42:06.920 --> 42:08.140] But we just don't know. [42:08.260 --> 42:10.980] And I just, if you ask us, [42:10.980 --> 42:12.020] we're going to say the same thing. [42:12.140 --> 42:13.000] We don't know. [42:13.340 --> 42:14.400] We don't know what's going on. [42:14.500 --> 42:16.560] We're just trying to roll with it as best we can. [42:17.120 --> 42:21.520] But it's, if before you blow thousands of dollars [42:21.520 --> 42:23.260] to fly to Delphi, you should at least be aware [42:23.260 --> 42:24.960] that the odds are bad. [42:24.960 --> 42:27.400] Yeah, we're all adults, you know, [42:27.500 --> 42:29.900] obviously make whatever decision you want to make. [42:30.480 --> 42:32.540] I'm just telling you what the odds are. [42:33.040 --> 42:38.460] I do want to add that if you do make the decision [42:38.460 --> 42:40.740] to come to Delphi, [42:41.040 --> 42:45.580] one thing you can do that would be very much appreciated [42:45.580 --> 42:47.560] is to support local businesses. [42:49.200 --> 42:52.020] There's a lot of great businesses in Delphi. [42:52.380 --> 42:54.940] Some of them I've grown so fond of [42:54.960 --> 42:56.840] that I actually follow them on Facebook. [42:56.940 --> 42:58.380] So I see the things they post. [42:58.960 --> 43:03.020] And in particular, the businesses around the courthouse, [43:03.280 --> 43:06.300] their businesses really suffer [43:06.300 --> 43:09.340] when there's court hearings in this particular case [43:09.340 --> 43:10.800] because a lot of locals say, [43:10.860 --> 43:12.140] well, we're just not going to go downtown [43:12.140 --> 43:13.780] while this is going on. [43:15.260 --> 43:17.300] So they could use you. [43:17.460 --> 43:19.560] So if you're coming here, [43:20.040 --> 43:22.800] try to spend your money locally. [43:22.800 --> 43:25.120] I think it would be really appreciated. [43:25.560 --> 43:29.280] Plus you get exposed to some great businesses [43:29.280 --> 43:32.540] and you'd be able to meet some great people [43:33.840 --> 43:36.560] because Delphi is full of great people. [43:37.140 --> 43:39.600] Yeah, especially the businesses [43:39.600 --> 43:41.300] that are directly around the courthouse. [43:41.460 --> 43:43.900] You have to understand that Delphi is a community [43:43.900 --> 43:45.440] that has been traumatized. [43:45.940 --> 43:47.680] Many people knew the girls. [43:47.860 --> 43:49.700] Many people knew their families. [43:49.700 --> 43:53.420] Many people just can relate to it [43:53.420 --> 43:57.540] because this is their city and it's a small city. [43:57.700 --> 43:59.500] It's a city like any other city. [43:59.500 --> 44:01.960] It has problems. It has good things. [44:02.000 --> 44:03.340] We had a wonderful time when we went there [44:03.340 --> 44:04.760] with Baconfest recently. [44:05.120 --> 44:06.600] Just a lot of really nice people in town. [44:07.240 --> 44:10.300] But there is an understandable impulse [44:10.300 --> 44:12.780] by local civilians, local citizens [44:12.780 --> 44:14.880] to stay away from the courthouse [44:15.640 --> 44:17.180] when pre-trial hearings [44:17.180 --> 44:18.440] and now the trial is happening [44:18.440 --> 44:22.160] because it's going to be a circus. [44:22.780 --> 44:26.840] And I think people find that intimidating, distasteful. [44:27.080 --> 44:28.780] It brings up bad memories. [44:29.040 --> 44:30.920] It's understandable that they do not want to be [44:30.920 --> 44:32.180] caught up in that, but that hurts [44:32.180 --> 44:33.900] the local businesses right next to there. [44:34.140 --> 44:38.760] And also just as a matter of pragmatic considerations, [44:39.180 --> 44:40.820] if there's a lot of media buses [44:40.820 --> 44:43.300] and other people just parked all over downtown, [44:43.800 --> 44:45.560] it's going to be difficult for local people [44:45.560 --> 44:47.180] to get downtown to go to these businesses. [44:47.180 --> 44:50.140] So the thing we can do is, at the very least, [44:51.620 --> 44:53.760] if we're collectively going to be camping out [44:53.760 --> 44:55.260] in Delphi to a certain extent, [44:55.900 --> 44:58.900] is to give back to the community, [44:59.500 --> 45:01.020] patronize the local businesses, [45:01.640 --> 45:02.980] see what we can do. [45:03.800 --> 45:06.580] And I think that would be a nice thing [45:06.580 --> 45:10.080] for us all to consider as we're planning this. [45:10.700 --> 45:11.160] Yes. [45:12.180 --> 45:13.180] Well, is there anything else? [45:14.040 --> 45:15.360] I think that's it. [45:15.360 --> 45:16.360] Who knows? [45:16.400 --> 45:17.880] Maybe there'll be some more filings [45:17.880 --> 45:18.900] for the rest of the week. [45:19.980 --> 45:22.480] But, you know, and I've said this before at this point, [45:22.580 --> 45:23.820] I think trial is going to happen. [45:24.900 --> 45:25.420] Yes. [45:27.180 --> 45:30.240] You are backing off your earlier conviction. [45:30.700 --> 45:33.920] Unfortunately, Kevin is often the correct party [45:33.920 --> 45:36.320] when it comes to predicting these legal matters. [45:37.220 --> 45:37.480] So... [45:37.480 --> 45:40.100] Kevin is the correct party in many issues. [45:40.100 --> 45:41.220] In many issues, okay. [45:41.240 --> 45:42.320] That is legal matters. [45:43.340 --> 45:44.660] You're right about everything. [45:45.700 --> 45:46.520] You heard her say it. [45:46.520 --> 45:47.200] It wasn't me. [45:47.400 --> 45:49.700] So she's an independent source. [45:50.740 --> 45:51.620] The corroboration. [45:51.760 --> 45:54.720] All right, well, listen, I'll take care of yourselves. [45:54.820 --> 45:56.720] Thank you so much for listening, as always. [45:56.740 --> 45:57.900] And just thanks. [45:58.060 --> 45:58.600] Bye. Bye. [45:59.220 --> 46:01.340] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. [46:01.840 --> 46:04.860] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, [46:05.420 --> 46:09.780] please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. [46:10.520 --> 46:12.880] If you have actionable information [46:12.880 --> 46:14.460] about an unsolved crime, [46:15.060 --> 46:17.460] please report it to the appropriate authorities. [46:19.120 --> 46:21.780] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, [46:22.100 --> 46:28.600] that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder sheet. [46:29.300 --> 46:32.340] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, [46:32.900 --> 46:39.040] you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet. [46:39.560 --> 46:42.380] We very much appreciate any support. [46:43.320 --> 46:45.420] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, [46:45.620 --> 46:47.660] who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, [46:48.120 --> 46:52.260] and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. [46:52.900 --> 46:55.180] If you're looking to talk with other listeners [46:55.180 --> 46:56.520] about a case we've covered, [46:56.960 --> 47:00.000] you can join The Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. [47:00.700 --> 47:03.580] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, [47:03.860 --> 47:05.880] so we're not on social media much. [47:06.500 --> 47:08.620] We do try to check our email account, [47:08.620 --> 47:12.500] but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. [47:13.160 --> 47:14.320] Thanks again for listening. [47:16.300 --> 47:17.540] Thanks so much for sticking around [47:17.540 --> 47:19.560] to the end of this Murder Sheet episode. [47:19.720 --> 47:21.260] Just as a quick post-roll ad, [47:21.400 --> 47:24.240] we wanted to tell you again about our friend [47:24.240 --> 47:27.300] Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook. [47:27.780 --> 47:29.820] This show is phenomenal. [47:30.140 --> 47:32.260] Whether you are interested in true crime, [47:32.360 --> 47:35.040] the criminal justice system, law, mental health, [47:35.480 --> 47:37.420] stories of marginalized people, [47:37.420 --> 47:41.120] overcoming tragedy, wellbeing, like he does it all. [47:41.440 --> 47:42.640] This is a show for you. [47:43.060 --> 47:45.380] He has so many different conversations [47:45.380 --> 47:46.560] with interesting people, [47:46.900 --> 47:48.960] people whose loved ones have gone missing, [47:50.500 --> 47:53.160] other podcasters in the true crime space. [47:53.960 --> 47:56.920] Just interesting people with interesting life experiences. [47:58.180 --> 48:00.000] And Jason's gift, I think, [48:00.020 --> 48:01.620] is just being an incredibly empathetic [48:01.620 --> 48:03.160] and compassionate interviewer, [48:03.280 --> 48:05.700] where he's really letting his guests tell their stories [48:05.700 --> 48:08.620] and asking really interesting questions along the way, [48:08.880 --> 48:10.400] guiding those conversations forward. [48:10.860 --> 48:12.020] I would liken it to like, [48:12.100 --> 48:13.920] you're kind of almost sitting down with friends [48:13.920 --> 48:16.620] and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales [48:16.620 --> 48:18.140] that you wouldn't get otherwise, [48:18.480 --> 48:21.200] because he just has that ability as an interviewer [48:21.200 --> 48:24.160] to tease it out and really make it interesting [48:24.160 --> 48:25.160] for his audience. [48:25.860 --> 48:28.860] On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy. [48:28.980 --> 48:29.260] Yes. [48:29.300 --> 48:31.580] He's been a really good friend to us. [48:31.940 --> 48:35.360] And so it's fun to be able to hit a button [48:35.360 --> 48:37.780] on my phone and get a little dose of Jason [48:37.780 --> 48:39.600] talking to people whenever I want. [48:39.980 --> 48:41.340] It's a really terrific show. [48:42.100 --> 48:43.540] We really recommend it highly. [48:43.680 --> 48:45.460] Yeah, I think our audience will like it. [48:45.460 --> 48:46.620] And you've already met Jason, [48:46.660 --> 48:48.140] if you listen consistently to our show. [48:48.160 --> 48:49.500] He's been on our show a couple of times. [48:49.560 --> 48:50.540] We've been on his show. [48:51.120 --> 48:52.160] He's a terrific guest. [48:52.660 --> 48:54.720] I say this in one of our ads about him, [48:54.720 --> 48:56.060] but I literally always am like, [48:56.080 --> 48:57.760] oh yeah, I remember when Jason said this. [48:57.760 --> 48:58.600] That really resonated. [48:58.720 --> 49:01.900] I do quote him in conversation sometimes, [49:01.900 --> 49:03.140] because he really has a good grasp [49:03.140 --> 49:04.780] of different complicated issues. [49:05.240 --> 49:07.300] I do, I'm like, I remember when Jason said this, [49:07.320 --> 49:07.980] that was so right. [49:08.180 --> 49:10.040] So I mean, I think if we're doing that, [49:10.040 --> 49:11.360] I think, and you like us, [49:11.440 --> 49:13.580] I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. [49:13.660 --> 49:14.860] I think you'll really enjoy it. [49:15.140 --> 49:16.900] And again, he does a range of different topics, [49:16.900 --> 49:18.800] but they all kind of have this similar theme [49:18.800 --> 49:22.200] of compassion, of overcoming suffering, [49:22.320 --> 49:24.880] of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, [49:25.040 --> 49:25.940] things like that. [49:26.100 --> 49:27.660] There's kind of a common through line [49:27.660 --> 49:29.120] of compassion and empathy there [49:29.120 --> 49:31.240] that I think we find very nice. [49:31.520 --> 49:33.480] And we work on a lot of stories [49:33.480 --> 49:34.760] that can be very tough. [49:34.760 --> 49:36.980] And we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. [49:36.980 --> 49:39.080] But this is something that almost can be like, [49:39.120 --> 49:40.360] if you're kind of feeling a little burned out [49:40.360 --> 49:41.940] by true crime, I think this is kind of [49:41.940 --> 49:45.500] the life affirming stuff that can be nice [49:45.500 --> 49:46.840] to listen to in a podcast. [49:47.900 --> 49:50.660] It's compassionate, it's affirming, [49:50.780 --> 49:53.260] but I also want to emphasize it's smart. [49:54.540 --> 49:57.760] People, Jason is a very intelligent, [49:58.120 --> 49:59.280] articulate person. [49:59.320 --> 50:02.420] This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. [50:02.420 --> 50:04.780] I think you'll all really enjoy it. [50:04.940 --> 50:06.940] Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building. [50:07.080 --> 50:08.500] So we're really excited to be a part of that. [50:08.760 --> 50:10.580] We're fans of the show, we love it, [50:10.640 --> 50:12.540] and we would strongly encourage you all [50:12.540 --> 50:14.760] to check it out, download some episodes, listen. [50:14.900 --> 50:16.340] I think you'll understand [50:16.340 --> 50:17.780] what we're talking about once you do. [50:18.260 --> 50:19.860] But anyways, you can listen to [50:19.860 --> 50:21.080] The Silver Linings Handbook [50:21.080 --> 50:22.320] wherever you listen to podcasts. [50:22.620 --> 50:23.840] Wherever you listen to podcasts. [50:23.960 --> 50:24.800] Very easy to find. [50:25.100 --> 50:25.500] Absolutely.