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## Cha: how to not make it a dump stat

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Judging__Eagle
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### Cha: how to not make it a dump stat

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:15 pm

Every other stat is not an automatic dump stat.
What does Charisma need to pull it out of that realm?
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CatharzGodfoot
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### Re: Cha: how to not make it a dump stat

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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:27 pm

> Judging__Eagle wrote:Every other stat is not an automatic dump stat.
> What does Charisma need to pull it out of that realm?

Every stat is an automatic dump stat unless your class abilities are based on it. If you have a small skill list in comparison to your base skill points, Intelligence is a dump stat. If you don't make normal attack & damage rolls, Strength is a dump stat. The only attribute which is never really a dump stat is Constitution.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:17 pm

I'd let Charisma add to Will save (if higher than Wisdom). There also need to be Charisma-related things to do in combat. Feinting should be more worthwhile, for one thing.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:03 pm

> Psychic Robot wrote:I'd let Charisma add to Will save (if higher than Wisdom). There also need to be Charisma-related things to do in combat. Feinting should be more worthwhile, for one thing.

That just replaces Cha with Wisdom as an automatic dump stat for everyone who's not a Divine Caster.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:16 pm

Cha is, mainly, a character's likability. It will always be a dump stat for players who don't care how likable their character is, or how pretty he is. It's use in intimidate has always been... unsatisfying to me, but because it also reflects a character's force of personality, it makes a certain amount of sense.
I hate charisma because it reflects too god damned many things:

- Force of personality
- attractiveness
- social skills
- manipulation
- actual personal charisma
- and probably at least one other thing I can't think of.

but mainly it seems intended to represent the first thing, force of personality, so first of all it should be renamed.
But secondly you can emphasize it's use in game by having npcs over look people with low charisma.
Other than that, I don't know.
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God_of_Awesome
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:20 pm

Book of Erotic Fantasies anyone?
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Post by Username17 » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:40 pm

The easiest way to make Charisma less of a dump stat would be to remove it. Its use is fairly contrived, after all.
While we're at it, I think Constitution should go too. Not because it's a dumpstat for anyone, but because it doesn't do anything. Characters don't ever demonstrate their Constitutionness or perform feats of Constitution or have any Constitution related skills. It's a place holder stat, and that offends me as much as Charisma.
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God_of_Awesome
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:46 pm

Backwards compatibility, Frank. BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY!!!
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Post by Lokathor » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:00 pm

Strength to Fort Saves?
...Wisdom to Concentration?
Yeah, that's every use of Con I can think of.
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Post by Koumei » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:22 pm

> God_of_Awesome wrote:Book of Erotic Fantasies anyone?

That makes Cha LESS useful by introducing a new stat (a very stupid one too) and giving it half the abilities of Cha.

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Post by TOZ » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 am

What stat would then be used for bonus HPs? Would we leave it as flat HD without influence of a stat?
Has anyone been over 4E's 'higher of two stats to save' bit? I'm curious if that would cause any problems if ported to 3.5 play. I think it's bad due to encouraging more dump stats, but good by boosting saves all around. And I'm not sure on the good part.
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Post by Leress » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:19 am

> God_of_Awesome wrote:Book of Erotic Fantasies anyone?

That book is beyond stupid.
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Post by koz » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:27 am

> TOZ wrote:What stat would then be used for bonus HPs? Would we leave it as flat HD without influence of a stat?
> Has anyone been over 4E's 'higher of two stats to save' bit? I'm curious if that would cause any problems if ported to 3.5 play. I think it's bad due to encouraging more dump stats, but good by boosting saves all around. And I'm not sure on the good part.

Con to hp is a problematic occurence in 3.5, as it makes SoDs pretty much mandatory in order to not make fights drag on and on. Additionally, it basically makes your HD irrelevant past a certain point, as there comes a time when your Con contributes more to your HP than your HD will - a definite problem if we actually accept that an HD difference is meaningful in terms of game balance.
As far as the 4E thing goes, I suspect it wouldn't cause serious issue if directly ported, and would actually help certain characters. Additionally, unlike 4E, dump-statting won't meaningfully increase as a result of porting this to 3.5, as there are MANY reasons not to dump certain stats in 3.5 as compared to 4E.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:33 am

> TOZ wrote:What stat would then be used for bonus HPs? Would we leave it as flat HD without influence of a stat?

That's a decent plan, as it would keep values a lot tighter.

> TOZ wrote:Has anyone been over 4E's 'higher of two stats to save' bit? I'm curious if that would cause any problems if ported to 3.5 play. I think it's bad due to encouraging more dump stats, but good by boosting saves all around. And I'm not sure on the good part.

It's godawful, because it encourages players to avoid archetypes like 'intelligent and agile', 'strong and hardy', and 'charismatic and wise'.
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Post by TOZ » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:11 am

That's another good point. I imagined taking away reliance on some stats would be a bad idea. No reason to have then when they only contribute to one or two functions. That is why we're talking about Cha here.
I've wondered what kind of effect cutting bonus HP would have. May have to try a playtest of it.
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:35 am

> It's godawful, because it encourages players to avoid archetypes like 'intelligent and agile', 'strong and hardy', and 'charismatic and wise'.

Except within the 4e rules, the differences between stats is so minimal, nobody is really going to notice.
Str is melee basic attacks (unless you spend a feat) and one whole skill
Con is HP and surges and one whole skill
Dex is ranged basic attacks (aside from magic missile and other powers that count as such) and three skills (one of which has notable overlap with the Str Skill)
Int is three skills (one of which does not actually do anything)
Wis is four skills
Cha is is four skills (two of which have notable overlap with each other, and at least one has notable overlap with the Int and Wisdom skills)
But charging, OAs, and that warlord power are the only reasons anyone ever makes basic melee attacks in 4e. Ranged attacks are even rarer - occuring only when you have a power that counts as one or when a character is toting around a bow to shoot stuff at extreme range. So you max out whichever stat powers your version of your class. You then decide if you boost the adder stat, or the other option stat or split the difference, and it really only matters for HP/Surges and whether you're heaping on the charge-boosters.
The skills manage to be both so broad and so vague at the same time (see also: Skill challenge revisions) that you can totally do "Charismatic and Wise" as an Int/Dex character. You use Arcana to be sensitive to magical effects (like a wise man or seer), you use Religion to interact with the temples and relate myths - thereby winning friends and influencing people, you use Thievery to disarm traps set to ensnare the foolish, and then maybe you pick up Nature as an off-stat skill since it lets you know about Humans, Halflings, Goblins, Dwarves and most of the PC races that you don't get under arcana. You can then use "monster knowledge" as a bonus to (ie stand-in for) Streetwise, Insight, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and other supposed charisma skills.
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:36 am

> Koumei wrote:

> > God_of_Awesome wrote:Book of Erotic Fantasies anyone?

> That makes Cha LESS useful by introducing a new stat (a very stupid one too) and giving it half the abilities of Cha.

Well, yes. I brought it up as a response to Prak Anima:

> Prak_Anima wrote: I hate charisma because it reflects too god damned many things:
> - Force of personality
> - attractiveness
> - social skills
> - manipulation
> - actual personal charisma
> - and probably at least one other thing I can't think of.

Also, I like BoEF. Not everything in it. In fact, very little in it. But what I do like, namely making attractiveness a seperate stat, I like alot.
I also like having the what's-what on who can breed with who clearly spelled out. Also, it's bloody hilarious but often true point that wizards would invent pervert spells if they existed and the rest of DnD never touched upon it.
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Post by Caedrus » Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:52 am

> Judging__Eagle wrote:Every other stat is not an automatic dump stat.
> What does Charisma need to pull it out of that realm?

What I did was make it add to (or subtract from) Action Points in my games. Seemed to work well enough. If I were to make more significant changes to the game than my usual patchwork of 3.5 fixes, I'd probably reorganize the stat array altogether.

> God_of_Awesome wrote:Also, I like BoEF. Not everything in it. In fact, very little in it. But what I do like, namely making attractiveness a seperate stat, I like alot.

WHY!?
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:25 am

> God_of_Awesome wrote:But what I do like, namely making attractiveness a seperate stat, I like alot.

Punch yourself in the dick.

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God_of_Awesome
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:52 am

Fuck you guys. I had the same proble when I ask myself, "Does a high Charisma make me good looking or make me a smooth talker?" I generally go for the latter myself but sadly most jump for the former. I can't just say 'My character is good-looking' when my Charisma is 8.
It's only good for a socialization play heavy game, which BoEF covers. Otherwise, yeah. It's pretty useless.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:51 am

Appearance should not be a stat ever in a heroic fantasy game. Every named character is attractive unless the plot has a specific reason to be ugly.
Moreover, we have shit like hats of disguise. Hats of disguise can make ogres look like nymphs. Actually having people assign a score to their appearance is a waste of time. Requiring people to invest in appearance is an insult of the highest caliber.
Of course, many of the same arguments apply to charisma. Charisma doesn't do anything except force people to play their characters as less interesting for no goddamned reason. Now I can understand making people pay points for the Influence or Intimidate skills, but Charisma should just not be a stat in D&D.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:54 am

Here's how it works: your character is as good looking as you want them to be, with just a few restrictions:
1. All dorfs are so ugly that not even other dorfs will sleep with them sober. Lucky for them they're long-lived alcoholics.
2. My character is the prettiest :3

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:05 am

I don't know. I'm of the opinion that Everyone should have a latent "natural magic" score, that represents blatant magic. And Charisma does a good job of that in D&D, basically serving as nothing but a dump stat for most characters (But in fact, you need dump stats. If you don't have dump stats, you game sucks ass.) and then being super important for Sorcerers (Or Dread Necromancers and Summoners) and SLA users.
That's a pretty nice stat actually. It's right up there with Str, Dex, Int and Wis in my judgments of stats. Better than Con, which doesn't serve to differentiate characters at fucking all, since Elven Wizards and Human Fighters and Halfling Rogues and Clerics and Sorcerers and everyone has a 14 Con.
The only character that doesn't have a 14 Con is an Elven Wizard using Dragon magazine, a decent Dragon based class, a Druid, and a Barbarian.
Of course, Charisma really really really shouldn't be "able to convince others" or "pretty" or anything else stupid like that. It should just be "latent magic connection" and instead of having skills keyed off of it (give them to Wis or Int as appropriate) it should have some bullshit magic connection crap. (It should stay in charge of UMD, but should also get some other feature, like Fate points, but in a way that doesn't suck.)
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Post by Lokathor » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:01 am

Strength
Dexterity
Intelligence
Wisdom
Soul
How do we allow a Glassjaw? Flaw of some sort?
Last edited by Lokathor on Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:05 am

> How do we allow a Glassjaw?

- Lower AC
- Worse Saves
- Fewer resistances
- Fewer immunities
- Reduced access to healing magic
- etc

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