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## 10th level issues

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Username17
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### 10th level issues

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Post by Username17 » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:14 pm

OK, the most popular requested level was 10th level. That level has a number of issues. I am going to divide those into rules problems and balance issues. A rules problem is when unlimited power becomes available or the game hands out two austensibly identical characters and they are objectively different in ability because of an irrelevent externality such as the order of events in a character's backstory. A balance issue is one in which two different characters are largely unable to compete against similar levels of challenges because one is so much better than the other. This list is not comprehensive, but it's a good starting place:
Rules Problems:
[*] Number of Skill Points - A Rogue 1/Bard 9 has 86 skill points. A Bard 9/Rogue 1 has only 80 skill points.
[*] Cross Classed Skills - A Fighter/Rogue who buys Disable Device and Ride every level is exactly the same as a character who buys 2 ranks of each skill in every appropriate level except that he has 11 less skill ranks.
[*] Hit Points - A Bard 5/ Ranger 5 has on average one less hit point than a Ranger 5/Bard 5.
[*] Infinite Difference Engine - By careful ordering of level loss and gain and template acquisition/curing, a 10th level character can have unlimited levels in any class.
[*] Class Replacement Difference Engine - By losing and restoring levels, a character can replace levels that provide no class features (such as Wizard) with levels that do (such as Geometer).
[*] Chain Binding - A Dao can provide you with an Efreet Servant, who in turn can provide you with unlimited Wishes.
[*] Spell Dancing - A Spelldancer can be made by 10th level.
[*] Skill Dancing - Properly equipped, an Artificer can go so far into Crazy Town that he is the Mayor by 10th level.
[*] Stat Replacement - there is little temptation to not use Polymorph effects at this level. A character who invested anything at all in Physical Stats is probably strictly inferior to anoher character who did not.
[*] All of the Money - A 10th level character can have unlimited monetary resources with Plane Shift or Fabricate. This in turn can generate likewise unlimited magic item related power.
[*] Then and Now - a character who made magic items a few levels ago is exactly the same as a character who didn't except that he has more swag.
[*] Third Level Blues - A character who tkes an odd level of Fighter is strictly inferior to a character who multiclasses out at that point.
Balance Issues:
[*] Reawakening - A Druid can Awaken themselves.
[*] The Teleport Ambush - The difference between having short duration buffs on and not is larger than the difference between having your party Fighter in the party and not.
[*] The Cleric Archer/Tiger Druid - A properly motivated Divine Caster can outfight a Fighter all day and still raise the dead in their spare time.
[*] The Sound of Two Swords Swishing - Two Weapon Fighting sucks my butt.
[*] Save or Die! - At 10th level it is entirely possible to end combats in a single action, which completely invalidates healing strategies.
[*] Multicasters Dilemma - There is no combination of two levels of any classes that can make up for not having the next spell level.
[*] Wizards > Sorcerers - A Wizard is simply better than a Sorcerer.
[*] Sorcerers > Fighters - A Sorcerer who takes almost all of her spells as Swift Buffs can simply outfight a Fighter. By a lot.
[*] Survivability Disparity - The difference in Fort save bonuses between a multiclassed Paladin and a Wizard going for Lichhood is larger than the Random Number Generator.
[*] Multiclass or Die - Warrior Classes don't get nice things after the first couple of levels.
[*] Mixed Messages - The cost of a +2 bonus and an additional +2 made-up bonus on the same item is 14,000 gp. The cost of a standard +4 bonus on one item is 16,000 gp. There is no reason to ever not have a bunch of made-up bonus types based on the way the stacking and cost multipliers work out.
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dbb
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by dbb » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:32 pm

I'm not even going to try to address most of these, certainly not at once, but I did want to pick at the magic item crafting issue.
It would be perfectly okay by me if item crafting were banned entirely. Fighters can't do it, so neither can anyone else. If you get a bunch of magic items you don't want together, you can maybe trade them in for a magic item you do want, if the setting has any group around that can fill the role of item broker -- otherwise, you are stuck with what the GM gives you.
In the absence of support for that position, I would advance the following concept: permit any class to take "item crafting" feats, spend the gold and XP on the items they want, and explain it however they please in story terms. Maybe they created it in the lab. Maybe their god sanctified it. Maybe they bought it from a merchant two towns over and the trip took a while. Maybe they stole it and it took a while to plan the heist. Whatever -- but everybody should be able to get cheap magic items, or nobody should be able to.
--d.
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Kirin_Corrigan
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Kirin_Corrigan » Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:52 pm

> Frank wrote:
> Rules Problems:
> [*] Number of Skill Points - A Rogue 1/Bard 9 has 86 skill points. A Bard 9/Rogue 1 has only 80 skill points.
> [*] Cross Classed Skills - A Fighter/Rogue who buys Disable Device and Ride every level is exactly the same as a character who buys 2 ranks of each skill in every appropriate level except that he has 11 less skill ranks.
> [*] Hit Points - A Bard 5/ Ranger 5 has on average one less hit point than a Ranger 5/Bard 5.

These are common to every level of play, not just 10th. And I don't have any problem leaving'em untouched, since they don't really bother me a bit.

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Infinite Difference Engine - By careful ordering of level loss and gain and template acquisition/curing, a 10th level character can have unlimited levels in any class.
> [*] Class Replacement Difference Engine - By losing and restoring levels, a character can replace levels that provide no class features (such as Wizard) with levels that do (such as Geometer).
> [*] Chain Binding - A Dao can provide you with an Efreet Servant, who in turn can provide you with unlimited Wishes.
> [*] Spell Dancing - A Spelldancer can be made by 10th level.
> [*] Skill Dancing - Properly equipped, an Artificer can go so far into Crazy Town that he is the Mayor by 10th level.
> (...)
> [*] All of the Money - A 10th level character can have unlimited monetary resources with Plane Shift or Fabricate. This in turn can generate likewise unlimited magic item related power.

These clearly fall under the "gentlemen's agreement" suggested by Wrenfield. I don't think anyone will try to pull anything like that. Rather, I'm sure people will strive to play mechanic "as intended", in a reasonable way.

> Frank wrote:[*] Stat Replacement - there is little temptation to not use Polymorph effects at this level. A character who invested anything at all in Physical Stats is probably strictly inferior to anoher character who did not.

True, but such characters are either Spellcasters themselves (thus the problem would be actually marginal, compared to the whole lot of powers at their disposal) or are dependant on other spellcasters (thus more vulnerable to "dispel" tactics and they will lower the actual spellcaster resources). I believe this can be dealt with effectively without too much effort.

> Frank wrote:[*] Then and Now - a character who made magic items a few levels ago is exactly the same as a character who didn't except that he has more swag.

This is more a matter of personal preferences than anything. There's people out there who like (and want) to make their own magic items, even though doing so will set their XP back a bit. Nothing to be concerned about.

> Frank wrote:[*] Third Level Blues - A character who tkes an odd level of Fighter is strictly inferior to a character who multiclasses out at that point.

I'm sure there's people who won't be depressed over having to take Ftr3 in order to get Ftr4 further on.
Most of the above are non-issues in common gameplay, even less 10th level specific issues. I wouldn't spend too much time on such things, they can (and should) be left untouched.

> Frank wrote:Balance Issues:

Many valid points here, really. But I thought the whole point of this game was exactly to test how the players and the DM(s) would handle such situations in-game and to see if some (inevitable) disparity in power can really be a problem in actual play (and, eventually, to what extent).
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Wrenfield
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Wrenfield » Wed Jun 08, 2005 8:11 pm

I hope that when the party of 4/5/6 (or however many is chosen) starts their build processes, they do it together. Or collaboratively. None of us should be building our characters in a vacuum so as to achieve "true ultimate power" all by our lonesomes. Collaborative party building will ensure nobody goes hog-wild with endless loop broken combo mechanics. The party should theoretically, police itself in this regard.
Peer pressure can be effective as well. Anyone pulling funny crap with money-making Fabricate ventures or Artificer hootenany is gonna get my wicked evil eye boring right into their virtual skull. But honestly, if someone chooses to play a strong min-maxed Artificer without its infinite engines, I'll gladly cheer them on and support them 100%.
I'm gonna reserve my judgement on magic item crafting until Frank states that he is aiming for this venture to be a one-off adventure ... or a full-blown campaign with potential off-camera downtime for each player.
Lastly, in reference to my first paragraph, since we'll be building our characters together, the odds of someone actually ending up with a weak character once Frank commences ... is rather small. We'll all be looking out for each other, and covering all our weaknesses and all foreseeable contingencies. That means our skills, feats, spells, and class abilities will hopefully be geared to getting team synergy and as little power disparity between the various characters.
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Murtak
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Murtak » Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:26 pm

Some ideas:
"Number of Skill Points"
Quick and dirty fix: First level does not hand out extra skill points. Maximum skill rank is equal to your level. You get a +3 bonus to all skills you invested at least one rank in.
"Hit Points"
Quick and dirty fix: Your first hit die is not maximized. You gain an extra 5 Hit Points at first level.
"The Teleport Ambush"
What has worked well for my regular group is giving teleport a 3 round casting time, during which it is audible and visible at both ends.
"Survivability Disparity"
Fractional saves can help here. (Multieclassing into classes with different good saves is still pretty powerful though.) For each save, calculate the number of levels with a good save and those with a bad save. Your saving throw is (number of bad levels / 3) + (number of good levels / 2) (+2 if you have at least one good level), rounded down. Thus a fighter 3, paladin 1, rogue 2 has saves of Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2.
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Essence
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Essence » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:29 pm

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Number of Skill Points - A Rogue 1/Bard 9 has 86 skill points. A Bard 9/Rogue 1 has only 80 skill points.
> [*] Cross Classed Skills - A Fighter/Rogue who buys Disable Device and Ride every level is exactly the same as a character who buys 2 ranks of each skill in every appropriate level except that he has 11 less skill ranks.
> [*] Hit Points - A Bard 5/ Ranger 5 has on average one less hit point than a Ranger 5/Bard 5.

These problems are all addressed by Frank's 'apprentice level' system, are they not? Would people be disagreeable to using that system?

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Infinite Difference Engine - By careful ordering of level loss and gain and template acquisition/curing, a 10th level character can have unlimited levels in any class.
> [*] Class Replacement Difference Engine - By losing and restoring levels, a character can replace levels that provide no class features (such as Wizard) with levels that do (such as Geometer).

I think we could all agree upon a "Your character hasn't lost any levels in the past" restriction, yes/no?

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Chain Binding - A Dao can provide you with an Efreet Servant, who in turn can provide you with unlimited Wishes.
> [*] Spell Dancing - A Spelldancer can be made by 10th level.
> [*] Skill Dancing - Properly equipped, an Artificer can go so far into Crazy Town that he is the Mayor by 10th level.

Similarly, can we agree that
A) Summoned/bound/dominated creatures cannot use their summoning/binding/dominating abilities?
B) Spelldancers do not exist?
C) Artificers' infusions (or whatever they're called) can't be made into magical items?

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Stat Replacement - there is little temptation to not use Polymorph effects at this level. A character who invested anything at all in Physical Stats is probably strictly inferior to anoher character who did not.

This is a major issue to me. I have a proposed solution, but I don't know how much it will be appreciated.
Rather than using stat replacement for Polymorph effects, how about replacing a creature's racial stat modifiers with the stat modifiers of the creature they're Polymorphing into? For example, a human with a 5 Strength would retain his 5 Strength, but replace his +0 racial Str modifier with a +14 for being a Hill Giant? It's not a great fix, but it means that your actual stat block still has a dramatic effect on your Polymorphed forms.

> Frank wrote: [*]All of the Money - A 10th level character can have unlimited monetary resources with Plane Shift or Fabricate. This in turn can generate likewise unlimited magic item related power.

This is another major issue, and the only viable solution in my opinion is to make 'money' no longer a viable currency for purchasing magical items. Some other currency needs to be developed.
The easiest solution is to have "chakra points" or some such nonsense. Each character has exactly as many "chakra points" as the Wealth Per Level guidelines suggests. A character cannot use a magical item unless he has invested "chakra points" in it (one-use items don't count; they're still purchased with gold). Getting rid of a magic item returns your chakra points. Investing chakra points takes some amount of time long enough that you can't do it in combat and wouldn't want to carry around a crapload of items in hopes of attuning to the appropriate one when it became a good idea.
I'm sure the idea has issues, but I can't think of a better way to eliminate gold from the equation. At that point, by all means, let people have infinite wealth -- as long as it isn't good for anything besides hiring a useless 1st-level-Warrior army or eating sauteed icthyocelestials for breakfast, no one cares.

> [*] Then and Now - a character who made magic items a few levels ago is exactly the same as a character who didn't except that he has more swag.

I agree with Wrenfield -- eliminate magic item creation from the list of viable character shticks. Give Wizards a different feat at 1st level.

> [*] Third Level Blues - A character who tkes an odd level of Fighter is strictly inferior to a character who multiclasses out at that point.

This is a player stupidity issue, and, as such, I'm willing to let it slide.

> [*] Reawakening - A Druid can Awaken themselves.

Actually, I recently re-asked this question to the custserv people, and I got a new and actually well-concieved answer:
the Animal type is defined as having an Int of 1 or 2. Thus, any character who Polymorphs into an Animal actually becomes a Magical Beast instead, because they cannot simultaneously meet the requirements of being an Animal and being a valid PC (which requires an Int of 3+).
Magical Beasts are not valid targets of the Awaken spell, therefore, Druids cannot Awaken themselves or any other PC, because they cannot ever become Animals in the first place.

> [*] The Teleport Ambush - The difference between having short duration buffs on and not is larger than the difference between having your party Fighter in the party and not.

I'm all for the ten-minute casting time, fireworks-at-destination Teleport for fixing this problem.

> [*] The Cleric Archer/Tiger Druid - A properly motivated Divine Caster can outfight a Fighter all day and still raise the dead in their spare time.

While the solution to this problem is drastic, I think it's not crippling to the Cleric or the Druid:
1) Eliminate Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Spikes from the game.
2) Remember that Druids can't ever become Animals (as per the logic above), so they can't target themselves with Nature's Avatar or Animal Growth.
3) Invoke a general rule that form-altering effects don't stack, at all, ever. If you cast a spell that changes your form, it overwrites any other form-changing spell you have cast. That means no Wildshape/Elemental Wildshape/PAO/Shapechange and no Girallon's Blessing/Fuse Arms, but also no Enlarge Person/Alter Self or similar seemingly innocent formchange stackings.

> [*] The Sound of Two Swords Swishing - Two Weapon Fighting sucks my butt.

A suggested solution:
Attempting to fight with two weapons and no feats grants you one extra attack with your second weapon, but gives you a -8 to all attacks you make in the round, or -5 if both weapons are finessable (whether or not you are finessing them).
The feat "Two Weapon Fighting" drops this penalty to -5, or -2 if the weapons are finessable. It has no prereqs.
The feat "Improved TWF" drops this penalty to -2, or -0 if both weapons are finessable. It's prereq is "BAB +1, TWF"
The feat "Greater TWF" drops this penalty to -0, regardless of weapon size. It's prereq is "BAB +3, ITWF"
The feat "Iterative TWF" lets you make iterative attacks with your off hand, all the way down the line, and has no prereqs past "BAB 6+, TWF".
The feat "Mighty TWF" allows you to apply your full Strength bonus to both weapons. It has the prereqs "BAB 3+, TWF"

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Save or Die! - At 10th level it is entirely possible to end combats in a single action, which completely invalidates healing strategies.

I don't regard this as a problem, as healing strategies suck Bantha dick from the get-go.

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Multicasters Dilemma - There is no combination of two levels of any classes that can make up for not having the next spell level.

See "Third Level Blues", above.

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Wizards > Sorcerers - A Wizard is simply better than a Sorcerer.

We've all seen lots of suggestions about how this can be rectified. My favorite is to ignore the 3rd level of a Sorcerer's spell progression, and then allow Sorcerers to pick their "spells known" lists anew every morning when they regain their spell slots. Oh, and give them a few class features. I like stealing the Aspects of Power from the Magister from Arcana Unearthed, but I don't particularly care.
Or just use the Trollman/Sulien (sp) Sorcerer in place of the existing one.

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Sorcerers > Fighters - A Sorcerer who takes almost all of her spells as Swift Buffs can simply outfight a Fighter. By a lot.

Before addressing this: does this same problem also apply to Barbarians, Rangers, and Paladins? If so, do we care (since all of those classes have something, however minor, that they do besides fight?)

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Survivability Disparity - The difference in Fort save bonuses between a multiclassed Paladin and a Wizard going for Lichhood is larger than the Random Number Generator.

See Third Level Blues, above.

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Multiclass or Die - Warrior Classes don't get nice things after the first couple of levels.

I'm willing to post my attempts at rectifying this (by modifiying the warrior classes), but by and large, I'm also willing to simply accept that warrior types will multiclass like biznatches in order to stay viable.

> Frank wrote:
> [*] Mixed Messages - The cost of a +2 bonus and an additional +2 made-up bonus on the same item is 14,000 gp. The cost of a standard +4 bonus on one item is 16,000 gp. There is no reason to ever not have a bunch of made-up bonus types based on the way the stacking and cost multipliers work out.

This problem is solved by agreeing that our characters haven't and won't ever make magical items, and not having items with made-up bonus types on the market.
Can the US government be uncorrupted?
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by RandomCasualty » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:31 pm

Cleric archer is a fairly easy problem to fix. Allow core buffs only, and no persistent spell or divine metamagic. With the errata to divine favor clerics won't be a problem at all, assuming you fix the teleport problem (which has to be fixed anyway). If clerics are paying a round to buff a divine power or a righteous might, the game should be fine. Especially with RM and divine favor nerfed by errata, clerics really shouldn't be too powerful unless you allow them to have the spells on all the time. Persistent spell is where all the cleric problems come from (at least until very high levels).
I do suggest you probably also tone down greater magic weapon and magic vestment, I like the solution that just has them increase the existing bonus on an item by +1. That way you don't get clerics getting lots of free equipment.
The druid is a huge problem, and I don't know how you'll fix him short of a full wildshape rewrite that makes him look like the bear warrior. Then again, you'll have to rewrite polymorph too anyway too, since that's abuseable.
Honestly though, as far as the polymorph spell goes, I think you may just be better off removing it entirely. Or just putting in a version that lets you turn into small animals to spy on people.
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dbb
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by dbb » Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:57 pm

See, this is kind of why I was wanting to keep things at low level.
--d.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by RandomCasualty » Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:19 am

> dbb at [unixtime wrote:1118275044[/unixtime]]See, this is kind of why I was wanting to keep things at low level.
> --d.

Well, anyone can run a low level game. It's more of an accomplishment to successfully run a higher level game.
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dbb
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by dbb » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:49 am

Of course it is. But so what?
I am dead certain that if we all put our minds to it we can end up having an interesting, even entertaining game that starts at 10th or 12th or 15th or whatever level and goes up from there. That's an "accomplishment". Yay us.
However, what we will be doing in order to get to that point is -- to quote Wrenfield -- "endlessly debating, rules-lawyering, & deconstructing D&D" in order to end up with a game that makes us all happy, or, more likely, makes as many of us as minimally unhappy as possible -- because the regular D&D rules don't work at high level, and when we try to start there, we have to figure out ways in which to fix all the ways they don't work, and we have to figure them out all at once.
And in the meantime, we won't be learning more about the world, we won't be working on our character writeups, and we won't be playing the frickin' game. If wanting to get to those parts as fast as possible marks me as fundamentally unambitious, then get the sticky labels out and slap them on.
--d.
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Josh_Kablack
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:55 am

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1118254461[/unixtime]]
> [*] Number of Skill Points - A Rogue 1/Bard 9 has 86 skill points. A Bard 9/Rogue 1 has only 80 skill points.
> [*] Cross Classed Skills - A Fighter/Rogue who buys Disable Device and Ride every level is exactly the same as a character who buys 2 ranks of each skill in every appropriate level except that he has 11 less skill ranks.
> [*] Hit Points - A Bard 5/ Ranger 5 has on average one less hit point than a Ranger 5/Bard 5.

All three of these are "solved" to my satisfaction by having players aware that the rules work like that, nonsensical though it may be.

> [*] Infinite Difference Engine - By careful ordering of level loss and gain and template acquisition/curing, a 10th level character can have unlimited levels in any class.
> [*] Class Replacement Difference Engine - By losing and restoring levels, a character can replace levels that provide no class features (such as Wizard) with levels that do (such as Geometer).

These are solved to my satisfaction by either
1. Houseruling that levels are always lost in the exact inverse order that they are gained and that restoration does not restore actually lost levels.
or
2. Getting rid of level loss altogether. There's no god damn good reason why negative levels can't just stick around until they're restored instead of resulting in actual level less.
[*] Chain Binding - A Dao can provide you with an Efreet Servant, who in turn can provide you with unlimited Wishes.

> [*] Spell Dancing - A Spelldancer can be made by 10th level.

This is only solved to my satisfaction by throwing out the Spelldancer (and the Illithid Savant too) as a PrC which adds little but infinite loops.

> [*] Skill Dancing - Properly equipped, an Artificer can go so far into Crazy Town that he is the Mayor by 10th level.

I do not have a solution for this one. Anyone else?

> [*] Chain Binding - A Dao can provide you with an Efreet Servant, who in turn can provide you with unlimited Wishes.

This can be solved to my satisfaction by applying similar limits to calling spells as already exist on summoning spells - ie called creatures cannot call other creatures, limited selection of called creatures available.

> [*] Stat Replacement - there is little temptation to not use Polymorph effects at this level. A character who invested anything at all in Physical Stats is probably strictly inferior to anoher character who did not.

I have a partial solution for this one, but that's a seperate debate.
I will only be satisfied with a solution in which I can actually tell what the various Polymorph spells do and don't do off the top of my head, and don't have to cross-reference four spell descriptions and three monster books.

> [*] All of the Money - A 10th level character can have unlimited monetary resources with Plane Shift or Fabricate. This in turn can generate likewise unlimited magic item related power.

I will accept the solution of either banning all known infinite money loops or using another system to determine magic item distribution.

> [*] Then and Now - a character who made magic items a few levels ago is exactly the same as a character who didn't except that he has more swag.

This is solved to my satisfaction by either:
Starting characters at an XP total instead of a level (and banning all known XP to item loops) or
using another system to determine magic item distribution.

> [*] Third Level Blues - A character who tkes an odd level of Fighter is strictly inferior to a character who multiclasses out at that point.

This is solved to my satisfaction by giving the fighter class a number of powerups, including a feat every level. I'm somewhat partial to This One.

> Balance Issues:
> [*] Reawakening - A Druid can Awaken themselves.

This can be solved to my satisfaction by removing the random component of Awaken and limiting it to working on Int 2 or lower creatures, while also interpreting PHB 171, column 2, bottom "Spells which provide bonuses or penalties on ...<blah blah blah> usually do not stack with themselves" to overrule PHB 172, column 1, middle "A bonus that isn't named ...<example>...stacks with any bonus"

> [*] The Teleport Ambush - The difference between having short duration buffs on and not is larger than the difference between having your party Fighter in the party and not.

There's no simple fix for the influence of buffs, I'm open to suggestions.
As for Teleport, I don't give a crap either way.

> [*] The Cleric Archer/Tiger Druid - A properly motivated Divine Caster can outfight a Fighter all day and still raise the dead in their spare time.

Most of this can be solved by removing Persistant Spell (and related cheese) and powering up the fighter..but that still doesn't go far enough to make me happy.

> [*] The Sound of Two Swords Swishing - Two Weapon Fighting sucks my butt.

This can be solved to my satisfaction by drastically lowering the dex requirements for the feats, using an alternate magic item distribution system, removing the Andy-ism from 3.5 Power Attack, and powering up Two-Weapon Defense to stay on pace with the enchantment expected on a light shield and not hose people for using total defense or combat expertise. It's would also be nice if the exotic double weapons did something worthwhile, like let you get your full str with each attack.

> [*] Save or Die! - At 10th level it is entirely possible to end combats in a single action, which completely invalidates healing strategies.

This can be solved to my satisfaction by having one or more party members have the ability to raise the dead.

> [*] Multicasters Dilemma - There is no combination of two levels of any classes that can make up for not having the next spell level.

This is insoluble in any system which I would still consider 3.x D&D.

> [*] Wizards > Sorcerers - A Wizard is simply better than a Sorcerer.

This can be solved to my satisfaction by getting rid of level 3 on the sorcerer spell progression, removing the restrictions on spontaneus metamagic, giving sorcerers additional class skills, giving sorcerers the ability to specialize (gaining spells known while losing schools) and giving sorcerers bonus feats (metamagic, spell focus, spell penetration) at the same levels wizards get them.

> [*] Sorcerers > Fighters - A Sorcerer who takes almost all of her spells as Swift Buffs can simply outfight a Fighter. By a lot.

This can be solved to my satisfaction by powering up the fighter and making a number of fighter-type PrCs available.

> [*] Survivability Disparity - The difference in Fort save bonuses between a multiclassed Paladin and a Wizard going for Lichhood is larger than the Random Number Generator.

This cannot be solved to my satisfaction without introducing an unacceptable level of additional complexity.

> [*] Multiclass or Die - Warrior Classes don't get nice things after the first couple of levels.

This can only be solved to my satisfaction via acts of violence visted upon certain of the game designers.

> [*] Mixed Messages - The cost of a +2 bonus and an additional +2 made-up bonus on the same item is 14,000 gp. The cost of a standard +4 bonus on one item is 16,000 gp. There is no reason to ever not have a bunch of made-up bonus types based on the way the stacking and cost multipliers work out.

This may be able to be solved to my satisfaction by severely limiting the number of bonus types available and using an alternate system to determine magic item distribution.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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User3
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by User3 » Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:39 am

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1118254461[/unixtime]]
> [*] Number of Skill Points - A Rogue 1/Bard 9 has 86 skill points. A Bard 9/Rogue 1 has only 80 skill points.
> [*] Cross Classed Skills - A Fighter/Rogue who buys Disable Device and Ride every level is exactly the same as a character who buys 2 ranks of each skill in every appropriate level except that he has 11 less skill ranks.
> [*] Hit Points - A Bard 5/ Ranger 5 has on average one less hit point than a Ranger 5/Bard 5.

As Josh said, simply allowing players to be aware of these problems solves them, from a purely practical standpoint. (Aesthetically, this may be a poor solution, but it works as far as actual gameplay goes.)

> [*] Infinite Difference Engine - By careful ordering of level loss and gain and template acquisition/curing, a 10th level character can have unlimited levels in any class.
> [*] Class Replacement Difference Engine - By losing and restoring levels, a character can replace levels that provide no class features (such as Wizard) with levels that do (such as Geometer).

Banning Savage Species might go a ways towards solving these; unfortunately, I'm not intimate with the mechanics involved, so I can't offer a more comprehensive solution.

> [*] Chain Binding - A Dao can provide you with an Efreet Servant, who in turn can provide you with unlimited Wishes.

... I dunno. Honor system? Or just tone down Wish?

> [*] Spell Dancing - A Spelldancer can be made by 10th level.

Limit the number of metamagic levels tacked on to the Spelldancer's class level.

> [*] Skill Dancing - Properly equipped, an Artificer can go so far into Crazy Town that he is the Mayor by 10th level.

How does this work, exactly?

> [*] Stat Replacement - there is little temptation to not use Polymorph effects at this level. A character who invested anything at all in Physical Stats is probably strictly inferior to anoher character who did not.

Just use Essence's fix; it means that, sure, a Wizard can improve his combat skills via Polymorph, but he'll never be the equal of a Fighter who pumped his strength. The fix means that Polymorph doesn't eradicate the gains made by investing in abilities, just augments them.

> [*] All of the Money - A 10th level character can have unlimited monetary resources with Plane Shift or Fabricate. This in turn can generate likewise unlimited magic item related power.

A simple fix that also limits Wish abuse: rule that the total *value* of a character's gear (past and present) is limited to 49k (or whatever), rather than limiting expenditures (count crafted items as 75% value or something). This stops all of the infinite money loops in their inception, though again it is merely a "quick-and-dirty" fix that doesn't deal with the underlying mechanic so much as avoids it.

> [*] Then and Now - a character who made magic items a few levels ago is exactly the same as a character who didn't except that he has more swag.

But a level lower, correct?

> [*] Third Level Blues - A character who tkes an odd level of Fighter is strictly inferior to a character who multiclasses out at that point.

Not a problem. A character that cuts off an arm will be worse than one that doesn't. Some choices are just bad; the fact that taking an odd level of fighter is one of these is nothing more than an unhappy fact of D&D.

> [*] Reawakening - A Druid can Awaken themselves.

Eliminate the type-changing madness, or just rule that Animals with intelligences of 3 or more become Magical Beasts.

> [*] The Teleport Ambush - The difference between having short duration buffs on and not is larger than the difference between having your party Fighter in the party and not.

The "fireworks at the other end" method of dealing with this seems quite effective.

> [*] The Cleric Archer/Tiger Druid - A properly motivated Divine Caster can outfight a Fighter all day and still raise the dead in their spare time.

There are numerous ways to rectify this, starting with the elimination of certain key buffs.

> [*] The Sound of Two Swords Swishing - Two Weapon Fighting sucks my butt.

See "Third Level Blues". Alternatively, ramp down the feat cost and eliminate the attack penalties imposed by TWF.

> [*] Save or Die! - At 10th level it is entirely possible to end combats in a single action, which completely invalidates healing strategies.

In my time as a gamer, I've only rarely seen healing used during a combat situation, and even more rarely seen it be effective. This doesn't seem like much of a problem to me, honestly, but if necessary it could theorectically be addressed by introducing a host of "sudden resurrection"-type spells that instantly bring a newly dead comrade to life (a la a fourth-level Druid spell from, IIRC, Complete Divine).
I'm too tired to address the rest now–perhaps tomorrow.
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Username17
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Username17 » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:09 am

> superthread wrote:unfortunately, I'm not intimate with the mechanics involved, so I can't offer a more comprehensive solution.

Here's a
[counturl=19]full play by play.[/counturl] It's not pretty, but there it is.

> superthread wrote:How does this work, exactly?

Here's a
[counturl=20]quick how-to.[/counturl] Again, not pretty. You recursively adjust your effective caster level until you decide to stop.

> Superthread wrote:But a level lower, correct?

Incorrect. Having less XP means that you get more XP. In a few levels time, you'll have caught up. You'll be the same level and have made a pile of swag. Item Crafting is lending your XP out for extra mcitems. If you have done that in the past, you will have already received your XP back by the time it gets to the present...
-Username17
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by RandomCasualty » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:44 am

> dbb at [unixtime wrote:1118281786[/unixtime]]
> However, what we will be doing in order to get to that point is -- to quote Wrenfield -- "endlessly debating, rules-lawyering, & deconstructing D&D" in order to end up with a game that makes us all happy, or, more likely, makes as many of us as minimally unhappy as possible -- because the regular D&D rules don't work at high level, and when we try to start there, we have to figure out ways in which to fix all the ways they don't work, and we have to figure them out all at once.

Well, I don't see it taking up all that much debate. Since Frank is DMing the thing, he's going to end up making the final decision as to what rule changes he wants to use, and that'll be the end of it. It'll hardly be some endless debate.
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Wrenfield
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Wrenfield » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:56 pm

Lots of various opinions on banning this, tweaking that, using this variant, ignoring that. I seriously hope we can keep our final house rules list lean and concise.
Seriously, I fully trust the ability of the party to police itself in regards to ensure that no builds go into the game weak, and no in-game events being formulated by party members border on rules abuse. Frank's job as DM will be challenging enough, so we as a group should ensure he has to deal with as little bvllshit as possible.
Keep in mind, I min-max and power-game as well. But in this specific game, I don't want us to go past the former or even near the latter.
Most of the time in high level play, the major rules abuse issues are in the Primary Spellcasting/Artificer Infusion/Druid Wildshape arena. Perhaps we can request volunteers amongst the player participants who wish to play those roles ... to be people who are the most conscientious regarding play balance and team-emphasis dynamics (since rules abusers tend to be selfish megalomaniacs anyway).
In this regard, I truely hope "dbb" is one of our primary spellcasters. I think she's definitely got a bead on the mindset for such a party role in this specific game.
Also, we don't really know how many people will be in Frank's party. 4,5,6, who knows. Depends on a number of variables first, I guess. As far as party roles go though, I'm sure primary spellcasters will be in high demand. Perhaps the party rogue/trapmeister next, meatshields last. And from what Frank seems to be saying (and based on his historical references in prior threads), I have a feeling he will allow tweakage of the meatshield characters to ramp them up in power level to make them compatible to the druids, clerics, etc.
Love,
Wren.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by RandomCasualty » Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:53 pm

On the subject of combat healing, I wouldn't touch anything there, for the most part combat healing is generally bad for the game. It makes the cleric's job awfully boring and even worse it rapidly turns the game into a matter of who runs out of healing spells first.
The only counter to instantaneous combat healing tends to be instantaneous death effects, unhealable effects or simply outlasting the enemy's healing.
I've played in games before with upgraded combat healing recently and for the most part they sucked, the battles were really long and it all tended to come down to who ran out of healing magic first. Good combat healing is another kick to the crotch of the fighter types, since it gives the cleric an even more dominant role at deciding which way a given combat will go.
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Murtak
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Murtak » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:06 pm

I would trust a party with relative power issues and with avoiding obviously broken characters (as in: anything infinite). I would not be so sure about issues like casters being plain more powerful then non-casters or polymorph abuse. I would wager that the entire party just uses those. That means the party is balanced, but some character types just aren't possible. If everyone is fine with that you can scratch a lot of issues from Frank's list. If not, these are the ones I see as being problematic:
"Stat Replacement"
Polymorph and cousins give a larger bonus to people with weaker stats, generally make a lot of items, classes and abilities not worth investing into and are both more versatile and more powerful than most other spells/effects of their level. Turning the stat replacements into bonuses only partially solves these issues. I can see just totally scrapping polymorph, or turning it into a stealth/scouting/movement spell only.
"The Cleric Archer/Tiger Druid"
Fixing this would involve scrapping Divine Favor, Divine Power, Spikes/Brambles, Wildshape and probably some others.
"The Sound of Two Swords Swishing"
I have no clue how to fix this without an unreasonable amount of changes. I guess if you accept that TWF is only worth it for specialized class combinations it sort of, kinda, works.
"Sorcerers > Fighters"
Well, one could just scrap all of the swift buffs, but that just covers the issue, because these spells are not actually the best thing the sorcerer could do.
"Multiclass or Die"
While a huge problem in general this should work out ok, given access to enough books and liberal changes to class entry requirements.
In addition to these I think the following are also problematic:
Arbitrary rest periods - When you can just Rope Trick or Mordenkainen's Mansion at will all those supposedly limited-by-charges powers are not limited at all.
Karma Beads - These should just disappear. If someone wants more caster levels they can go get an Ankh of Ascension or orange Ioun Stone.
Holy Word - Probably would not come up anyways, but if someone wants to use it eventually it should be fixed.
Murtak
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Username17
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Username17 » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:03 pm

Remember: in general the "gentleman's agreement" is the best solution for a game and the worst solution for the game.
On skill points: I am damned tempted to scrap the idea of cross classed skill points altogether. I am willing to entertain either apprentice levels or "just not worrying about it" as a workaround for the level order disparity.
My favorite treatment of TWF is to have "Two Weapon Fighting" give you an equal amount of attacks with your off-hand as you get with your main hand, all at -2. That way if you charge or cleave or whatever you get the same base damage out of two short swords as you would out of a greatsword - you spend a feat and take an attack penalty to double your static damage bonuses, and suffer no additional restrictions.
On the Difference Engine and Then and Now: I am in favor of eliminating all forms of XP cost and Level Loss. XP is a measure of accumulated asskicking. "Spending" it on more asskicking is madness and losing it is also madness. There's just no reason to have XP ever go down under any circumstances. This also largely solves the problem of Save or Die! by just having Raise Dead be easy and fun for the whole family.
I am currently in favor of having a completely non-monetary mcitem distributive system. This solves infinite money loops and likewise limits the offense possible by crazy-go-nuts items like the Karma Bead (Free with every box of Cheerios, apparently) and the Thought Bottle.
-Username17
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dbb
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by dbb » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:12 pm

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1118347420[/unixtime]]
> On skill points: I am damned tempted to scrap the idea of cross classed skill points altogether. I am willing to entertain either apprentice levels or "just not worrying about it" as a workaround for the level order disparity.

I would certainly endorse the idea of having all skills be class skills; I have no strong opinion re: apprentice levels or the skill point disparity.
The rest of these houserules all seem peachy to me, especially the elimination of level loss, one of my least favorite mechanics ever, and the removal of the Magic Item Mart system, which was a terrible, terrible idea to start with and has not improved with age.
--d.
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MrWaeseL
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by MrWaeseL » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:17 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:On the Difference Engine and Then and Now: I am in favor of eliminating all forms of XP cost and Level Loss. XP is a measure of accumulated asskicking. "Spending" it on more asskicking is madness and losing it is also madness. There's just no reason to have XP ever go down under any circumstances. This also largely solves the problem of Save or Die! by just having Raise Dead be easy and fun for the whole family.

I wholly support this endeavour.

> FrankTrollman wrote:I am currently in favor of having a completely non-monetary mcitem distributive system. This solves infinite money loops and likewise limits the offense possible by crazy-go-nuts items like the Karma Bead (Free with every box of Cheerios, apparently) and the Thought Bottle.
> -Username17

This would also be for the best, but it's not easy to pull off. At least with gold costs you have some measure of relative item power.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by RandomCasualty » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:25 pm

Karma beads and ioun stone abuse are fairly easy to control.
"All bonuses from items to caster level are now enhancement bonuses."
Prevents any stacking cheese.
TWF is a two sided problem. It's a virtual must take for rogues and totally sucks for fighters. If you want to make it better for fighters, you should probably not allow offhand weapons to sneak attack, so that you can apply benefits to TWF without worrying about making rogues uber.
Level loss should pretty much go. I would advocate just using negative levels, replacing "level loss" with "permanent negative level", at least until someone gets hit with restoration anyway. So you'd make your fort save with a negative level, and if you fail, the negative level stays until magically removed.
As for raising the dead...
Since high level combats seem to be deadly, I would probably think that having no penalty or a temporary penalty, like giving the guy a -6 penalty to str and con for a few days, is probably better than a permanent level loss.
The other option, which I've used for a few campaigns is not have ressurection or raise spells at all, and instead just use the revivify spell from the MiniHB. I find that generally works better for campaign building anyway, since death is permanent if you don't get to the guy fast enough, but if you do, there's no penalty.
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dbb
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by dbb » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:45 pm

> MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1118348230[/unixtime]]
> This would also be for the best, but it's not easy to pull off. At least with gold costs you have some measure of relative item power.

You keep the gold costs, and you can use those to figure out how much swag the party or a particular person ought to have -- you just don't permit actual magic items to be purchased for gold basically anywhere. That's more or less the way it used to work in prehistoric D&D (often, there were exceptions for things that were well below your power level -- so you could buy +1 splint mail and +1 swords to equip all your 1st level henchmen with, which made them totally kick-ass but didn't do much to unbalance your 8th-12th level party).
This does probably need to go hand in hand with an item creation revision, or else there's not much point to it -- it slows you down a little, but as long as you can craft you still ultimately get to pick whatever items you want.
--d.
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Neeek
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Neeek » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:19 pm

Regarding the "primary caster > everyone else" problem, would allowing non-primary casting classes to be gestalt characters be erring too much on the other side?
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Kirin_Corrigan
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Kirin_Corrigan » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:34 pm

> Frank wrote:On skill points: I am damned tempted to scrap the idea of cross classed skill points altogether. I am willing to entertain either apprentice levels or "just not worrying about it" as a workaround for the level order disparity.

Getting rid of cross classed skill points looks pretty neat. It'd be like everyone got Able Learner for free. And I'm in favor of not worring about the level order disparity.

> Frank wrote:My favorite treatment of TWF is to have "Two Weapon Fighting" give you an equal amount of attacks with your off-hand as you get with your main hand, all at -2. That way if you charge or cleave or whatever you get the same base damage out of two short swords as you would out of a greatsword - you spend a feat and take an attack penalty to double your static damage bonuses, and suffer no additional restrictions.

I was tinkering with a TWF build, just for the fun of it. I haven't been playing one for years, and I was willing to see just how it worked "as is". But I guess I shouldn't complain for such an house rule...
OTOH, in my campaigns TWF is a still a feat chain, but their prereqs are lower (à la 3e) and the feats let you add full strenght on off-hand attacks. 'Till now this solution worked pretty fine.

> Frank wrote:On the Difference Engine and Then and Now: I am in favor of eliminating all forms of XP cost and Level Loss. XP is a measure of accumulated asskicking. "Spending" it on more asskicking is madness and losing it is also madness. There's just no reason to have XP ever go down under any circumstances. This also largely solves the problem of Save or Die! by just having Raise Dead be easy and fun for the whole family.

Incidentally, the build I mentioned above has Kensai levels in it. How would you handle the PrC's XP costs to imbue the signature weapon and similar mechanics that fiddle with XP only?

> Frank wrote:I am currently in favor of having a completely non-monetary mcitem distributive system. This solves infinite money loops and likewise limits the offense possible by crazy-go-nuts items like the Karma Bead (Free with every box of Cheerios, apparently)

It can be ruled that you get the benefit from only one Karma Bead at a time or you could just give the bonus a name, as RC said. The same would apply to similar items/buffs.

> Frank wrote:and the Thought Bottle.

This one should just be ruled out. The mechanics behind that item are just plain nonsensical.
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Thoth_Amon
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### Re: 10th level issues

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Post by Thoth_Amon » Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:25 am

I will be happy to be an alternate for when the first player abandons the game if you have a full party to start.
My cheese fu is not what it used to be, but I am useful for comic relief (in battles).
I promise not to play a monk.
TA
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