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## Bizarre Glorantha Trolling

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echoVanguard
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Post by echoVanguard » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:20 pm

> Prak_Anima wrote:

> \/Defender|Attacker> | Fumble | Fail | Success | Critical
> Fumble | Nothing happens | Attacker hits | Attacker hits, can choose a combat maneuver | Attacker hits and gets two combat maneuvers
> Fail | Successful dodge | Successful dodge | Attacker hits | Attacker hits and gets two combat maneuvers
> Success | Successful dodge, Dodger can use a defensive combat manuever | Successful dodge, Dodger can use a defensive combat manuever | compare rolls, higher success wins | Attacker hits
> Critical | Successful dodge, Dodger can use two defensive combat manuevers | Successful dodge, Dodger can use two defensive combat manuevers | Successful dodge | compare rolls, higher critical wins

That seems pretty straightforward to me, although the bit about defensive and offensive combat maneuvers obviously doesn't mean much without context. What's so bad about that table?
echo
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:52 pm

I really have no idea what the fumble table in RuneQuest VI looks like. The fumble table in RuneQuest III looks like this:

> D100 Effect:
> 01-05 Lose next Dodge.
> 06-10 Lose next attack.
> 11-15 Lose next Dodge and parry.
> 16-20 Lose next Dodge, parry, and attack.
> 21-25 Lose next 1D3 melee rounds Dodge, Parry, Attack.
> 26-30 Lose next 1D6 attacks
> 31-35 Armor strap breaks; roll location.
> 36-40 Armor strap breaks; roll location, also lose next round as per 21-25
> 41-50 Fall; lose Dodge and parry this round.
> 51-60 Fall and twist ankle; lose 1 meter of Movement per melee round for 5D10 rounds.
> 61-70 Vision impaired: -25% on attacks & parries, take 1D3 rounds unengaged to fix
> 71-73 As above, but 50% for 1D4 rounds.
> 74-75 Vision blocked; blind for 1D3 rounds.
> 76-80 Distracted; all foes +25% attack next round.
> 81-85 Strain muscle; lose 1 hit point in attacking limb and 3 Fatigue points.
> 86-90 Hit nearest friend, do rolled damage. If no friend is near, as per 81-85.
> 91-94 Hit nearest friend, do maximum damage. If no friend is near, as per 81-85.
> 95-96 Hit nearest friend, do critical damage. If no friend is near, as per 81-85.
> 97-98 Hit self; do maximum rolled damage.
> 99 Roll twice on this table, apply both results.
> 100 Roll thrice on this table, apply both results.

Fumbles for most characters happen on 2-3% of actions, so as you can see accidentally stabbing yourself or your allies for maximum damage or more is reasonably common.
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echoVanguard
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Post by echoVanguard » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:19 pm

Don't get me wrong, I think characters should have options to reduce or eliminate fumbles - but according to the stats you supplied, with a 3% fumble rate, and 10% of those fumbles resulting in injury to self or ally, that works out to about 0.3% chance of occurrence per attack. That seems pretty low, since the actual friendly fire rate for military casualties for the U.S. military is typically in the double-digit range (18% in World War 2, and 24% in the first Gulf War). Am I missing something here?
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:27 pm

> echoVanguard wrote: Am I missing something here?

Yes.
First of all, you're comparing apples (total casualties) to oranges (chance per attack). Secondly, even within that context you're full of shit, because we're talking about your chances of impaling a nearby friend with a sword and you're talking about mistaking an ally for an enemy in the dark while firing long range weapons with split second timing.
RuneQuest3 gave you a 0.3% chance of impaling a nearby friend (or yourself) every time you swung your sword to strike or parry. That is multiple 0.3% chances in every five second combat round. It adds up fast.
For RAELZARM!
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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:28 pm

> echoVanguard wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think characters should have options to reduce or eliminate fumbles - but according to the stats you supplied, with a 3% fumble rate, and 10% of those fumbles resulting in injury to self or ally, that works out to about 0.3% chance of occurrence per attack. That seems pretty low, since the actual friendly fire rate for military casualties for the U.S. military is typically in the double-digit range (18% in World War 2, and 24% in the first Gulf War). Am I missing something here?
> echo

You're missing the fact tat people often make more than one attack during the course of a war.
You're also missing the fact that those numbers are percent of deaths caused by friendly fire (compared to the total number of deaths) rather than the percentage of attacks that hit the wrong target (most attacks hit absolutely nothing).
Most importantly, you're missing the fact that friendly fire is not the result of a fumble, except on the rarest of occasions. Friendly fire is the result of not knowing whom you are intentionally shooting at. It's a success, not a fumble.
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talozin
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Post by talozin » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:28 pm

> Murphy's Rules wrote:In a 30-minute RuneQuest battle (Chaosium) involving 6000 armored, experienced warriors using Great Axes, more than 150 men will decapitate themselves and another 600 will chop off their own arms or legs.

> TheFlatline wrote:This is like arguing that blowjobs have to be terrible, pain-inflicting endeavors so that when you get a chick who *doesn't* draw blood everyone can high-five and feel good about it.

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Dr_Noface
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Post by Dr_Noface » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:36 pm

As a historian, that sounds about right. *huffs paint*
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:31 pm

> Prak_Anima wrote:

> \/Defender|Attacker> | Fumble | Fail | Success | Critical
> Fumble | Nothing happens | Nothing happens | Attacker hits, can choose two combat maneuver | Attacker hits and gets three combat maneuvers
> Fail | Nothing happens | Nothing happens | Attacker hits and gets a combat maneuver | Attacker hits and gets two combat maneuvers
> Success | Successful dodge, Dodger can use a defensive combat manuever | Successful dodge, Dodger can choose a defensive combat manuever | compare rolls, higher success wins | Attacker hits and can choose an offensive combat maneuver
> Critical | Successful dodge, Dodger can use three defensive combat manuevers | Successful dodge, Dodger can use two defensive combat manuevers | Successful dodge and choose a defensive combat manuever | compare rolls, higher critical wins

Went and fixed the table, should be correct now. Also I noticed that, yes, MRQ2 does still have fumble tables. There are three, Close Combat, Natural, and Ranged:

> Close Combat Fumble Table- roll 1d20 wrote: 1-3: Falter- cannot attack next combat action, may defend.
> 4-6: Drop Weapon- Weapon falls 1d4 metres away
> 7-9: Lose Balance- Lose next 1d3 Combat Actions
> 10-12: Damage Weapon- Weapon takes damage from opponent's parrying weapon directly to hp, ignoring it's armour points (hardness) and does damage to itself.
> 13-14: Stumble- Trip and fall prone. Forfeit next 1d3 Combat Actions. All defensive actions at a -20% penalty.
> 15-16: Lose Armour- Roll for Hit Location where armour fell from. If not armoured, reroll.
> 17-18: Hit Ally- Accidentally strike a nearby companion for rolled daamge. If no ally within reach, hit self instead.
> 19: Unlucky- Roll twice, ignore 19 and 20
> 20: Doomed- Roll three times, ignoring 19 and 20

> Natural Weapons Fumble Table- roll 1d20 wrote: 1-3: Hesitate- cannot attack next combat action, may defend.
> 4-6: Numb Limb- Limb is temporarily paralysed until a successful Resilience roll is made, starting next Combat Action
> 7-9: Entangle Self- Lose next 1d3 Combat Actions
> 10-12: Damage Limb- Limb takes damage from striking opponent's parrying weapon/shield/inanimate object (tree, statue, wall) and does damage to itself.
> 13-14: Sprawl- Trip and fall prone. Forfeit next 1d3 Combat Actions. All defensive actions at a -20% penalty.
> 15-16: Injure Limb- Limb is reduced to 0 hp, suffering a Serious Wound.
> 17-18: Hit Ally- Accidentally strike a nearby companion for rolled daamge. If no ally within reach, hit self instead from wrenching a random location (possibly including your head, somehow...).
> 19: Fated- Roll twice, ignore 19 and 20
> 20: Cursed- Roll three times, ignoring 19 and 20

> Ranged Combat Fumble Table- roll 1d20 wrote: 1-3: Disoriented- Attacker loses target and next active Combat Action
> 4-6: Drop Weapon- Weapon falls 1d2 metres away
> 7-9: Snare Weapon- Lose next 1d3 Combat Actions
> 10-12: Lose Weapon- Weapon string either snaps, or weapon is lost when thrown
> 13-14: Damage Weapon- Weapon, when fired or thrown, suffers rolled damage to itself, ignoring Armour Points.
> 15-16: Hit Ally- Accidentally strike a nearby companion for rolled daamge. If no ally within reach, hit self instead.
> 17-18: Misfire- Inflict normal damage on self.
> 19: Bedevilled- Roll twice, ignore 19 and 20
> 20: Damned- Roll three times, ignoring 19 and 20

Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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silva
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Post by silva » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:16 am

> echoVanguard wrote:That seems pretty straightforward to me, although the bit about defensive and offensive combat maneuvers obviously doesn't mean much without context.

Actually, the current (sixth) edition is even simpler.
First you find your degree of success here (its an opposed roll):
Then you pick the desired effect(s) here:
Last edited by silva on Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:51 pm

You know, King of Dragon Pass made the ducks a lot less annoying than this thread made them out to be. Granted, it's at at the cost of making them culturally very similar to human beings, but they weren't anywhere near as aggravating or immersion-breaking as I thought they'd be.
Also, what's the deal with rhinoceros and post-30YW pre-WWI weaponry? I swear I've seen similar artwork from Wizardry/Bucky o' Hare/TMNT4/etc.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Ted the Flayer
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Post by Ted the Flayer » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:18 pm

> Prak_Anima wrote:Worse, Broo take on the attributes of whatever is forced to birth them. If a broo raped a duck, you'd have a duck broo.

> Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.

> Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:07 am

So. King of Dragon Pass. Or rather,its proposed sequel.

> About 15 years ago, I got back to the office and there was a message on the answering machine. “Those stories!” the caller repeated more than once. Long distance transmission and his accent made it hard to understand much more. I managed to get back to him, and learned that he was a high school student in Finland, who was so impressed by the Gloranthan mythology that he had called the United States.
> The power of myth is basically why our next game will be set in Glorantha.
> An obvious goal of Six Ages will be to capture what made King of Dragon Pass special. We did a very unscientific survey, and nearly half the respondents felt very strongly that a successor wouldn’t be like King of Dragon Pass without Glorantha.

I feel like an asshole for admitting this, but... I agree with this. I have the same feelings towards King of Dragon Pass I have towards Torneko's chapter in DQIV or Live a Live. That is, while it wasn't exactly great from a storytelling or a gameplay perspective, it was different enough to be memorable and worm its way into my heart. What's more, I'm not exactly sure why King of Dragon Pass resonated with me in a way a lot of other fantasy games that went out of their way to tweak tropes and details didn't.
If you strip out the stupid of Glorantha (and as we can see from this thread, there is plenty of stupid) do you think that it's a setting worth salvaging? Or is it more like a Planescape: Torment thing where the game designers were so talented that they made the adaptation much more compelling than the original?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:55 am

I guess it depends what you mean by "stripping out the stupid." As a table top setting Glorantha is a total acid trip and its superstitious bullshit is impossible to adjudicate with any real consistency. However, that inconsistency and option paralysis doesn't really hurt KoDP because the game is an elaborate CYOA/Visual Novel and seeing all the weird prompts it spits out is the whole point of playing. KoDP can have completely insane shit like a walktopus inviting ducks to their quinceañera and players will just soldier on because they don't really need to understand what the fuck a prompt means in order to click on it.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:58 am

That's... surprisingly sensible, Whipstitch. I guess having the game be on a multi-branching railroad that only feeds you weirdness in small doses does help acclimate you to the stupid.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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kzt
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Post by kzt » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:35 am

I'd argue there isn't THAT much stupid in Glorantha that you can't rip out most all of it. I personally hate ducks and bad puns used as city names, but a lot of what people seem to think is insane I kind of like.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:43 am

I would argue that the strength of Runequest as a game is that it's not class-based. Now, the roll under % system that it uses is dumb, but the fact that you can build a swordsman who also throws around lightning and not have the system fighting against it is good.
Glorantha... I suppose the "Mythic Reality" thing doesn't bother me in and of itself, it's the fact that if you run it that way, you run into Ars Magica's problem, where the players and Mister Cavern aren't necessarily operating on the same level of basic information about the world. They could be, but you would need to provide everyone with a "Physical Rules of Glorantha" booklet, which could easily be 30 pages, at least. Then there's the problem that Runequest/Glorantha is basically the El Dorado of Grognardia. Hell, Greg Stafford will actually give different answers to people who ask him the same question because he has a hard on for realistic myth-making, so he seriously wants different versions of myths floating around. If you were to play the game "correctly," you can't expect to just rock up to stuff knowing "How Yurmal Stole the Sun" or whatever unless you can tell Mister Cavern where you heard the myth. And to make matters worse, there's just enough similarity between game world myths and real world myths to fuck you over because you're thinking "Oh, it's Crow stealing the sun, ok, I know this" and then you find out that, no, it's meant to evoke that myth but completely fucking different.
If D&D 5e is "Suck the GM's Cock" Runequest is "Buy the GM Coffee" because while a good GM is willing to tell you this shit, it's going to take so damned much time, you can't expect him to do it in game, you have to get him to tell you in between games. Which is still hugely disruptive to the game because it means you'll get to points where you have to say "Hold up guys, we can't continue until I take the GM out for coffee and myths this Wednesday."
What you could do to make Glorantha work a lot better, if you're willing to sacrifice the OMG GUYS REALISTIC MYTH MAKING!!!! aspect, which you should be, is giving everyone a pool of Mythopoeia Points, that they spend in game to say "WAIT. Gravity doesn't exist in Glorantha! Things fall because they have a connection the earth diety and wish to return to him! FORTUNATELY I'm a chosen of Orlanth, and so I have a stronger connection to the air rune than the earth rune. Time to be Superman." There is so much to teach people in Glorantha, that it works better to treat it as a kitchen sink myth setting, and let players contribute to the physical rules of Glorantha.
On the other hand, I seem to recall Frank saying that sort of thing is stupid and infeasible, so there's that too.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:37 am

You're never ever going to be able to get physics to work by committee. That is just not going to happen. If you go full dream-logic and abstract storytelling, you could make things cooperatively mythic by simply dumping the idea of keeping track of seconds and feet at all. So, you could do something like what Prak is talking about in Munchhausen, but it's never going to work in something that's basically a D&D hack where people have movement rates and initiative counts and shit. If there's any kind of expectation that your character has to take an action during a five second turn that the other players are waiting for so that they can make tactical decisions, then it is under no circumstances acceptable to launch on a tirade about how you think gingerbread physics should work.
Now in a video game, that's all different. Physics are just whatever they are. Things don't have to make sense because you push a button and things happen. Why does Mario jump so high? Why do mushrooms make you expand? Why do turnips kill monsters when you throw them and why are they single use? Who cares? It's a video game, and things just do whatever the hell they do.
Mario would require all kinds of explanations in a table top RPG. But in a video game, things just happen and that's OK. So in a King of Dragon Pass type scenario, the mythic prompts just are whatever they are. And that's fine. You don't have to take the DM out for coffee and have him discuss shit, because all the answers are provided at all the prompts. You only have limited responses available to any challenge because it's a video game. And then all the available responses are customized to whatever mythic reality is being evoked because it's a video game. And that's fine.
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silva
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Post by silva » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:15 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:
> I feel like an asshole for admitting this, but... I agree with this. I have the same feelings towards King of Dragon Pass I have towards Torneko's chapter in DQIV or Live a Live. That is, while it wasn't exactly great from a storytelling or a gameplay perspective, it was different enough to be memorable and worm its way into my heart. What's more, I'm not exactly sure why King of Dragon Pass resonated with me in a way a lot of other fantasy games that went out of their way to tweak tropes and details didn't.
> If you strip out the stupid of Glorantha (and as we can see from this thread, there is plenty of stupid) do you think that it's a setting worth salvaging? Or is it more like a Planescape: Torment thing where the game designers were so talented that they made the adaptation much more compelling than the original?

First, I dont know why someone should feel bad for liking Glorantha or King of Dragon Pass. Its an original and tight little game based on a very original and interesting setting.
Your feelings toward Glorantha probrably stem from the fact it has an organicity rarely seen on your typical fantasy setting, which is explanied by the fact it was conceived by the author to explore its studies on myth and anthropology, instead of being made by comittee to serve as the framework to your latest roleplaying system. Thats why Glorantha, and KoDP by extension, feel different from most other fantasy settings out there ( its a similar case as Middle-Earth, really).
Obs: the setting author is also one of the videogame's author (Greg Stafford is credited in KoDP), so your theory is busted anyway.
Last edited by silva on Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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silva
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Post by silva » Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:42 pm

> Prak wrote:What you could do to make Glorantha work a lot better, if you're willing to sacrifice the OMG GUYS REALISTIC MYTH MAKING!!!! aspect, which you should be, is giving everyone a pool of Mythopoeia Points, that they spend in game to say "WAIT. Gravity doesn't exist in Glorantha! Things fall because they have a connection the earth diety and wish to return to him! FORTUNATELY I'm a chosen of Orlanth, and so I have a stronger connection to the air rune than the earth rune. Time to be Superman." There is so much to teach people in Glorantha, that it works better to treat it as a kitchen sink myth setting, and let players contribute to the physical rules of Glorantha.

This is an awesome idea ( ).
But I think my favorite method of Glorantha-gaming is the old-school one used in the Runequest 2 days: just open Cults of Prax (or other splatbook), pick a cult and go with its description of myths and powers. This way each player has a ready-made core of myths to tap on during the adventures. Further, the more powerful one gets in his cult the more crazy he can go in its applications. A novice orlanthi can call on winds to propel his spear a dozen meters far, while an adept orlanthi can call on winds to propel him from the ground as on a Hulk-like leap, and a warrior-priest of orlanth can call on winds to bring a thunderous storm over the battlefield. Using only one or two splatbooks helps keeping the field of myths low in size. Or just use this and align with the players which myths are allowed in the game.
Off: this cover for the new heroquest book looks awesome. It seems Babeester-Gor (or one of her acolytes) on the cover...
Last edited by silva on Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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Harshax
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Post by Harshax » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:06 pm

There is no Fumble table in RQ6. Fumbles just improve your opponent's degree of success. Degrees of success allow you to apply additional effects to your attack or defense.
For example, an Attacker might choose a location, maximize damage, damage a weapon, impale or bypass armor.
A Defender might choose to disarm the attacker, riposte, etc.
There's a pretty long list of combat effects. Some are specific effects for Attacker or Defender only and some require specific weapons. You can't, for example, impale with a club.
Last edited by Harshax on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Harshax
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Post by Harshax » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:19 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:You're never ever going to be able to get physics to work by committee. That is just not going to happen. If you go full dream-logic and abstract storytelling, you could make things cooperatively mythic by simply dumping the idea of keeping track of seconds and feet at all. So, you could do something like what Prak is talking about in Munchhausen, but it's never going to work in something that's basically a D&D hack where people have movement rates and initiative counts and shit. If there's any kind of expectation that your character has to take an action during a five second turn that the other players are waiting for so that they can make tactical decisions, then it is under no circumstances acceptable to launch on a tirade about how you think gingerbread physics should work.

To my knowledge, Newtonian physics works in Glorantha exactly how they do on Earth. Yes, the world is a giant life-saver shaped object with an every draining ocean at its center, but that doesn't matter in the slightest.. Unless you're playing GodLearners trying to unravel myths or get rivers to flow out of the ocean into land like they did during the Gods War. Since GodLearnerism is kind of a big joke from the grognard days, playing them would put you well outside of the sandbox defined by the rules in RQ1,2 and 3. I'm well aware of MRQ's focus on the 2nd Age, when the GodLearners were actually around and fucking the world up, but I don't have any experience or love for MRQ.
Glorantha parties aren't structured like D&D parties, either. You really don't have dwarf fighters, elf bowman, troll barbarians, Kraloran Dragonewts and human Yelmalio worshippers in the same party. (The troll would eat everybody)
Generally speaking, parties are all Orlanthi, Malkioni, or Red Moon Cultists, to name a few. So while Glorantha is full of conflicting mythologies, players are usually all from the same culture and therefore viewing the world through the same religious filters.
I'm not attempting to refute the fumble tables of RQ3. I'm just pointing out that Physics and the Kitchen Sink aren't as big of problems as you're making them out to be.
Last edited by Harshax on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:21 pm

Not in my experience, Harshax. I mean, setting aside the fact that a God Learner was pretty much the best thing to play (Imperial citizens get the largest selection of professions, iirc, and can have some of the highest starting wealth rolls, Sorcery, if you know what you're doing, pwns everything*), we never had a party that was from a single culture. Though they were usually split between Orlanthi and Malkioni.
*Just as an example-
Enhance Power, Enhance Intellect. Obviously, you already have Int and Pow as your highest stats, and have bought up your Sorcery and Manipulation skills as high as you could, which for a starting character is at least 80. So you cast both at like Mag 8 (adding 16 points to each stat), with durations of 9xPow Minutes. This increases, among other things, your Sorcery and Manipulation stats, because they're 2xInt and Int+Pow, respectively, as a base.
So you do it again, because the book seriously does not say that further applications don't stack. Now, you do have to be careful to not enhance your Power too much, because there's this thing where if your Pow gets too high, you basically explode from being "too real." So you Enhance your Pow to just under that point, and then just Enhance your Int.
So, given time (and it really doesn't take all that much, you can do this while the fighter is practicing so he can turn gold into skill points), you balloon your primary stat and skills to huge amounts, as well as your Willpower skill (Persistance, 2xPow as a base). You can then use your massive sorcery-peen skill to cast Enhance Constitution, if you like, which then increases your Resilience skill. If you're worried about magic points, the you get the spell Tap (Characteristic), which reduces one of a target's abilities (1 pt./10% of Sorcery skill) and gives you an equal number of magic points. And you buy a bunch of chickens. You're probably using Tap Dexterity. Then you just slaughter the chickens and provide the party with dinner.
Then there's little hidden things, like, if you want to fly as a sorcerer, you don't actually want the Fly spell, it's useful, in that it's actually a telekinesis spell (allowing you to make a target fly under your control), but for actual travel, it's pretty slow, allowing you to move 3 siz(/10% skill) of target 1m per round, and you can trade 3 siz for 1m. An average person's size is 13. So best case scenario, you fly at 4m, which is your walk speed, or maybe a little faster.
No, if you want to fly, what you do is learn the spell Shapechange (your race, usually human) to Wraith. Wraiths, if you crack open the Necromantic Arts book, have a Movement score of Fly 52m. So the sorcerers who know what they're doing, don't fly like Superman, they fly like fucking Voldemort. Now, you would think it would be really hard to change into an undead creature that flies 13 times faster than people walk, and can have a fear aura, lock people into an area, use it's Int as Str for telekinetic control, possess people, or even completely bypass mundane armour (depends on which ghost powers you choose), but it's actually not, particularly.
See, the way Shapechange works, for Sorcerers at least, is, first, you have to learn a different spell for each thing you want to turn into. Each "Form one to Form two" is a separate skill, so turning villagers into frogs is a separate spell from turning them into sheep is a separate spell from turning elf villagers into either. Then you take the original form's Size stat, and add to that the difference between that stat and the Size stat of the target form. Every 10% of Sorcery skill allows you to handle 3 points of this Size calculation.
The book example is a Siz10 sorcerer turning into a Siz25 grizzly bear (because he is from Gryffindor and has no ambition). So the original form's Size is 10, the difference between Target Form and Target Creature Sizes is 15, so that's 25, divided by 3 is 9, after rounding up, means you need a Sorcery skill of 81-90% (because you round your skills up when you're dividing them by 10 for this sort of thing).
A wraith is Siz -, to represent the fact that it's incorporeal. So if you're a Siz 10 sorcerer, the difference is 10, for a Size calculation of 20, meaning you need a Sorcery skill of 71% or better, which you have if you're at all serious about bending the world to your will through the application of magic. And of course, you can always use Tap Size on yourself to facilitate this both through shrinking the Size calculation and through turning your Size into magic points.
Now, if you can convince your GM to give you the spell True Tap Power, things get even crazier. See, normally Tap Power would turn a target's Pow stat into magic points. TRUE Tap Power turns it into Power stat for you. Now of course this is a Very Bad Thing(TM) in world, and if anyone finds out you have it, they will really not like you. Like, pitchforks and torches and stakes not like you. Of course you've raised your Pow to 20 (right below the Too Real barrier for humans), have at least 100% in both Sorcery and Manipulation (Runequest skills can go over 100%), and when the villagers come for you, you cast True Tap Power (Manipulate- Range 1 [1xPow meters], Targets 9) at them and cackle maniacally as you sap the very essence of your assailants. From the sky. As a wraith.
edit: Oh, you'll want a receptical for all that extra power. You can make those. Or you just cast normal Tap Power when the villagers come for you.
Now, this sounds like Sorcerers Win Everything. And it is. But to be fair, there isn't a lot stopping a fighter type from learning Sorcery, because Runequest is skill based, not class based. So you can totally take your DMF guy, go to the god learners, convince them to teach you, and learn this stuff too.
Last edited by Prak on Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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silva
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Post by silva » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:49 pm

Sorry to say it, Prak, but Harshax is right. If you want to know the Glorantha story of success you must ignore MRQ entirely and go back to RQ2/3 and its supplements Cults of Prax, Griffin Mountain, Borderlands, etc. (or just get RQ6 together with Glorantha Classics series).
Saying Glorantha gaming is busted and giving MRQ as example is like saying D&D is crap while stating you only played 4E. I can point you to dozens of old Glorantha classics playing reports and none will present the "problems" you're talking about.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:52 pm

I guarantee you that a sufficiently motivated player could crack RQ2 wide open.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Harshax
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Post by Harshax » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:34 pm

Most of my RQ experience is Avalon Hill's RuneQuest (RQ3). I liked RQ2, but RQ3 just worked a lot better for me because it included sorcery and was written as a generic fantasy ruleset with a separate booklet for Glorantha.
And yes, you could break the game quite easily with RQ3 Sorcery, given enough time and POW. However, I'm fairly certain that only the best Enhance [Characteristic] spell applied to your stat. There was no Enhance POW, because it's obviously stupid to include that. POW is probably the most important currency in the game, so having a spell that lets you make free currency is such an obvious trap that it baffles me the Mongoose guys would fall for it. I don't think Enhance INT existed either, but my memory is unclear.
RQ3 Sorcery had better durations for spells but started in with small durations and increased dramatically: rounds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, seasons, years, decades, centuries, millennium, etc.
The big limiting factor in RQ3 Sorcery was having enough Free INT and magic points to cast spells. That meant you had to earn POW. The maximum number of "levels" you could put into spells was equal to your Free INT (Int not used to memorize spells). So with enough time, sorcerers were expected to amass lots of POW, create spell matrixes so you could free up all your INT, enchant MP storage devices and uplift familiars (who could be used as reservoirs), bind spirits to refuel storage devices or for Tapping and get your skills increased.
So a low level sorcerer would make a spell matrix that contained the most powerful version of a spell he could cast. At the time of casting, he would get to manipulate that spell further to the limit of Free INT and then spend magic points equal to the total spell levels in the casting. A spell matrix cost a number of points of permanent POW equal to the cost of the spell.
When you had enough POW, you'd make a new matrix of that same spell, using the old matrix as a buff. Rinse, repeat. RQ3 Sorcery was a total grindsuck. This also explained why the world was littered with magic items, and why they varied so greatly in power.
All in all, Sorcerers ruled the world. If you shadowed them, you could figure out their schedule for renewing some or all their personal spell defenses and try to gank them in their down time, but your description of MRQ Sorcery reads like they took something broken from RQ3 and obviously made it more broken.
EDIT: I could provide you with lots of ways the Magic Systems in RQ3 were broken, but I'm not breaking the seal of my only box copy. It was definitely broken, but it did take an incredibly long time to get there. By then, you should be HeroQuesting and just playing MTP with the universe.
Last edited by Harshax on Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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