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## Being a competent 6th-9th level melee guy in 3.5E D&D.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:45 pm

More generally you can contribute to combat in two ways: either by killing enemies or by preventing enemies from killing your mans. Wizards often don't even have to choose one or the other, as a 3r level Wizard who knows sleep and web can switch back and forth between those tactics very effectively. But as a non-wizard, you have to specialize.
Now your enemies are getting more hit dice per CR and more bonus hit points per hit die as CR increases. Thus, your damage output has to grow at a rate greater than linear or it is falling behind and your ability to kill things is going down as you rise in level. At base, there are two ways to increase damage at a rate faster than than linear: you can add on-hit damage buffs (like exploding arrows or sneak attack) and rack up a bunch of attacks; or you can get damage bonuses and damage multipliers (like spirited charge) and multiply one by the other. There is actually a third way: which is simply to gain bonuses faster than linearly and take your standard attack and like it. But only Clerics and Frenzied Berserkers can accumulate bonuses fast enough to make that a workable proposition.
And on the flip side, there is very little that a non-caster can do if they aren't a Tome Monk or Fighter if the enemy simply decides to cast death spells. Even enemy beat sticks have a pretty easy time simply beating on things most of the time. While a Tripstar or Grapplemancer can tie down some enemies, there are also enemies that they cannot tie down, making the archetype fairly limited in scope. And no PC build that isn't one of those can protect much of anything if you don't want to go the giant pile of damage route.
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spasheridan
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Post by spasheridan » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:15 pm

Tundra Halfling Paladin / Ranger -> Halfling Outrider. Get the feat that makes your mount your animal companion.
Get the feat that lets you take a dragon as a paladin mount.
Mounted combat feats for pre-reqs, then who cares what you do.. you're playing your dragon from now on. With huge HD, AC, and stat buffs. Give the dragon all your magic items, climb into the haversack on the dragons back, and watch the shenanigans.
Even before you get the dragon you can still have fun riding a wardog or a velociraptor and lancing fools.
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spasheridan
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Post by spasheridan » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:20 pm

The other class I like is the deep warden. Some wacky dwarven ranger / fighter build that lets you put CON to your AC instead of Dex but it's a d12 HD class with ranger skills and full BAB.
I thought you might combo it with the races of stone and PHB2 stuff - dwarf levels of fighter, dwarven racial paragon levels. Mountain Plate, Heavy Armor optimization if you can get your GM to agree that hevay armor restricts your Dex add to your AC, but a CON add to you AC is just you being TOUGH TOUUGH TOUGH, so it doesn't cap like dex. Otherwise just roll with the light armor.
Effective - probably about as effective as a fighter with slightly better AC. Fun - you get a bunch of skills so you can hide like a thief, track, climb... I always liked the idea
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:42 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:The basic non-Tome viable "melee" archetypes are...

I think it's possible to play a Stun monk.
Dedicated Strike class feature
Ability Focus (stunning fist)
Fist of the Heavens
- Sanctify Ki Strike
Vow of Nonviolence
- Sacred Vow
Pain Touch
Sapphire Fist
Pharoah's Fist (may need to get this ruled a Stunning Fist attack)
Falling Sun Attack
Favored in Guild (Tyr the Even-handed)
Ki Straps
Now, to get all that shit requires 9 feats, though you can have that as a Human Fighter 2/(Oriental) Monk 6/Swordsage 1.
There are easier ways if you have access to Quintessential Monk I (namely the Deadly Venoms Boxer, which adds +1 DC/lvl, or the Five Animals Fist, which allows you to eventually Stun attack every creature regardless of immunities, or Break the Breath, which is a feat that forces an enemy to save using the lower of their WILL or FORT saves).
Still, you're hampered by the same shit that hampers most rogues and you're executing a Stunning Fist that hits an opponent an all adjacent enemies with up to a DC 10 + lvl/2 + WIS + 19 Fortitude save at level 9.
Last edited by mean_liar on Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Mask_De_H
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Post by Mask_De_H » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:44 am

> FrankTrollman wrote: [*] Supercharger. Add a bunch of bonuses and multipliers to charge attacks and pounce the fuck out of people for more damage than they have hit points. Loses badly to hordes of enemies, chairs, or Tripstars.

> Loses badly to hordes of enemies, chairs or Tripstars.

> Loses badly to chairs.

This chair is an eyesore.
Disappear!
This chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair!

> FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.

> K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.

> Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.

> Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:53 am

> meanliar wrote:I think it's possible to play a Stun monk.
> Dedicated Strike class feature
> Ability Focus (stunning fist)
> Fist of the Heavens
> - Sanctify Ki Strike
> Vow of Nonviolence
> - Sacred Vow
> Pain Touch
> Sapphire Fist
> Pharoah's Fist (may need to get this ruled a Stunning Fist attack)
> Falling Sun Attack
> Favored in Guild (Tyr the Even-handed)
> Ki Straps
> Now, to get all that shit requires 9 feats, though you can have that as a Human Fighter 2/(Oriental) Monk 6/Swordsage 1.
> There are easier ways if you have access to Quintessential Monk I (namely the Deadly Venoms Boxer, which adds +1 DC/lvl, or the Five Animals Fist, which allows you to eventually Stun attack every creature regardless of immunities, or Break the Breath, which is a feat that forces an enemy to save using the lower of their WILL or FORT saves).

So you have to be playing a Monk from Rokugan, the Sword Coast, and the Bright Desert, in a campaign using the Incarnum and Nine Swords expansions with a DM allowing 3rd party material from Mongoose? Yes... if you have a list of allowances that long, any class is viable. Hell, if you are allowed to use the Everquest d20 material, you can play a pretty viable Tauntadin. Pump up the Expertise and save buffs and taunt away. But in any game you are liable to actually play in, the Stun Monk is not a real option.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:04 am

No, you specious fucker, the only thing you have to have are the feats. The source-dependent bonuses are the Sapphire Fist (incarnum for +1 DC) and the Falling Sun Attack (ToB for +1 DC), and the Favored by Guild (+2 DC).
The 3rd party stuff wasn't added.
So, in a bare-bones campaign you're using generic feats for +13 to the DC.
Fuck your assumptions. They're stupid.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:06 am

> Mask De H wrote: This chair is an eyesore.
> Disappear!
> This chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair this chair!

You joke, but that was one of the worst changes about 3.5E.
Chairs used to not be a problem at all for 3.0E characters unless they had some suckass mount like like a burro, but in 3.5E chairs stop any mount smaller than Huge right in their damn tracks.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:16 am

mean_liar, sorry, but Frank's right. Plundering books for one specific option iteratively and discarding the rest is bullshit.
Unless you have some sort of book-gathering tool like the 4E Character Builder where the devs forcefeed you every option, DMs have to approve every specific book and line-item veto them. DMs are really suspicious about people who come to the table with an armload of thematically unrelated books who cherry-pick options from them.
Stick to two or three books. Try to avoid paradigm-redefining books like Unearthed Arcana or Magic of Incarnum. Definitely avoid campaign-specific books like Eberron or Forgotten Realms unless there's no other choice. Do this unless you have one of those DMs that are all 'if it has the WotC stamp of shit on it, then it's good'. Many DMs are not like that, making your advice unhelpful.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Leress
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Post by Leress » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:45 am

Lago, please tell us all the exact restrictions on this challenge. Adding more and more is annoying.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

]

> The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.

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Grek
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Post by Grek » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:52 am

Play a pirate(read rogue) with a parrot and have it flank for you. Sneak attack.

> FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.

> Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:05 am

> Leress wrote:Lago, please tell us all the exact restrictions on this challenge. Adding more and more is annoying.

That's a fair request. I'm sorry. I should have been more specific. I should have said that this thread was for getting archetypes that would be accepted in most non-hardass games, rather than coming up with a list of thought experiments.
That said, here's what I mean:
- Standard wealth-by-level.
- No abusing of the difference engine.
- Avoid excessive dumpster diving. If you have to use more than four books to put together your combo, it's probably gone too far.
- No stat replacement.
- No custom magical items that weren't pre-printed in a book.
- Avoid tagging in other critters via the use of summoning/calling spells or feats that operate similarly to the leadership feat though I will make a case-by-case exception (such as dragon mounts).
- Multiclassing a lot is fine, try to limit yourself to one or two PrCs. This is a 6th-to-9th level character after all.
- Keep it to WotC books. Preference will be given to setting-agnostic builds.
- Except for the Bo9S (which is by far the most universally accepted of this category), avoid using expansion options that introduce a new mechanic altogether like Magic of Incarnum or OA taint.
I know I could've spelled it out better, but I thought that a lot of the stuff on my list was non-obvious.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:17 am

Okay, here's the crazy mess lame-o polearm character build that was the sole martial cohort in the all-mage RttToEE game.
It's all core and straightforward, so it should be allowable everywhere, but you are going to want to buff it up with whatever non-core material you can get. If I'd played 3.x more recently than like 2 years or kept up with the late edition books I'd be able to give better advice, but I've been playing CHAMPIONS and 4.Beer during that time.
Ranger 2/BBN2/Fighter 2/etc
(BBN first for the HP or Ranger first if the skills get you into a PrC)
Feats:
dodge, mobility, spring attack
power attack, cleave
precise shot, rapid shot
*quick draw
(cheesy: add Leadership - get a wizard cohort who casts potentially extended heroism, keen edge, greater magic weapon, flame arrow and the stat buffs on you before you enter the dungeon and then waits for you back at camp.)
equipment:
wand of longstrider
best light armor you can get
+N glaive (that's the damage polearm, right? You have neither the feats nor the stats to profit from the specials on the other ones)
+N strength bow
+N mithral buckler (I think)
something to mess up enemy counter-charges caltrops, chairs, bag of tricks, etc
This is a "melee" character who wins at melee the same way everyone does in 3.5 - by avoiding it as much as possible, since the monsters out-melee everyone and out-range nobody. The ideal tactics here are to soften up enemies with archery, and then be able to use the 50' move plus reach to charge their soft targets or/spring attack back out of full attack threat.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:38 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:DMs are really suspicious about people who come to the table with an armload of thematically unrelated books who cherry-pick options from them.

...they are? I've never worried about it. I've only seen two dms who prohibit BoVD because they think it's more for NPCs, and one of them also just prohibits books he hasn't read, which is understandable.
my high school friends and I tend to go kind of hog wild on sources as long as things can be reflavoured.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:56 am

I really wish spring attack didn't go obsolete as an attack mode so soon. It's a very beastly ability in conjunction with a reach weapon, but because PC-end damage scales poorly unless you're abusing the system it very quickly ends up not cutting the mustard if you're not a Diamond Mind school user, too.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Danchild
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Post by Danchild » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:15 am

Thri-kreen. 2 racial HD (monstrous humanoid), +2 LA. 1st level at ECL 5, Warblade would be good. Focus on Tiger Claw discipline and exploit the +30 racial bonus to jump checks. Pick up ranger for concentration skill, or dip spelltheif for the same +sneak attack/trapfinding. 4 levels in the Pyromancer PrC for the Weapons Aflame ability, a +2d6 fire damage to all attacks and Fire Lash. Utilise LA buyoff. Multi-Weapon fighting chain. A warblade/ranger/pyro uses XPH, TOB, PHB and savage species. WBL can focus on choice gear, the elemental damage bonus enhances your many mundane attacks. Fire Immunity/resistance will make you cry and resort to unaugmented methods of dealing damage.
2 racial hd/ranger 2/warblade 1/ Pyro 4. BA +8; 8d8+1d12 hp. Set up to advance via Bloodclaw Shifter. Multi-weapon fighting, Deflect arrows(bonus), rapid shot (ranger bonus), track (ranger bonus). 3 feat slots vacant. Can spam ranged via 2 longbows, or 4 thown + rapid shot; Fire Bold at will. Full touch multi attack with reach via Fire Lash. Full flaming touch attacks via hand aflame (or just augment claw and bite damage).
Gear includes a host of hidden blades and boot knives and stuff. Dont bother hiding them, just set them on fire. Better off focusing on one decent weapon and then pick up a whole heap of cheap crap for minor situaional buffs. Gauntlets of Energy Transformation are cheap, 3/day items that change the energy type of a power. Weapons aflame lasts until you dispel it, so you can have a Lightning attack, Sonic or Cold attack available instead of fire. Horizon goggles extend range by 50%, this should work with Fire Bolt, Fire Lash and standard ranged weapons.
Not that great, but there is some wiggle room with tactics and class choices. Not really dependant on specific magical gear. Can enter the teen levels in a variety of ways.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:29 am

Rangers can trade their track bonus feat for rogue style trapfinding via dungeonscape if it matters.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:58 am

Handy Haversack of Chairs?
Is that a Wished item or not?
-Crissa
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Danchild
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Post by Danchild » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:00 am

Trapfinding does not matter for my proposed build. Thri Kreen have an Intelligence penalty, so they are not stepping up to be a skillmonkey.
On the plus side, they do have a racial manifester level. So they can potentially pick up an array of Powers via Psychic Chirurgery. If they can get hold of some power stones, they can then use them to power a limeted number of manifestations. Cheesey, but adds some versatility to the Firebug.
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Murtak
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Post by Murtak » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:53 am

> Prak_Anima wrote:

> > Lago PARANOIA wrote:DMs are really suspicious about people who come to the table with an armload of thematically unrelated books who cherry-pick options from them.

> ...they are? I've never worried about it. I've only seen two dms who prohibit BoVD because they think it's more for NPCs, and one of them also just prohibits books he hasn't read, which is understandable.

But if you bring half a dozen books more than everyone else is a pretty good way to make sure at least one of those books is unknown to your DM, hence prohibited, hence no Monk for you.
Murtak
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erik
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Post by erik » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:59 pm

I missed how those restrictions prevent you from being a halfling 1 Fighter/X Druid who does spirited charge from atop a Dire Bat animal companion (with bonus HD, get perfect flight for dire bat).
Fuck chairs, I'm flying!
(this build was used wildly successfully in Living Greyhawk... in earlier levels it was a riding dog until the Dire Bat became available... of course XP penalty was like a bonus in that system)
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:01 pm

...just be sure to tell your dm you have a dire bat mount... *cough*
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Dean
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Post by Dean » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:53 pm

Wait? You are allowed to use Bo9S? Play Crusader, Crusader is totally valid as a class, or be a Warblade and dip crusader shit a bunch for more healing than can plausibly be dealt out in damage for your level (which frankly is often better than just crusader because when you need to you can Hit+heal, recover maneuver+heal, Hit+heal and continue ad nauseum without worrying about not getting your maneuvers back due to WoF)
As a Human Warblade and or Crusader you can both have a class that provides you with some fightan magic moves and enough feats to just also BE SOMETHING ELSE. It's win win.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:09 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:- Keep it to WotC books. Preference will be given to setting-agnostic builds.
> - Except for the Bo9S (which is by far the most universally accepted of this category), avoid using expansion options that introduce a new mechanic altogether like Magic of Incarnum or OA taint.
> I know I could've spelled it out better, but I thought that a lot of the stuff on my list was non-obvious.

That build I posted is all straight WotC. It uses the OA monk feat swap option, but you can drop some of those and still be very viable.
My experience with games is very different from yours - consistently, across multiple groups, we do stuff like use the Feat Bible (PDF compilation of every feat from WotC), Crystal Keep and Dragon (Dragon is a maybe but never outright no), use character options (Spontaneous Domains, OA monk feat swaps, Unearthed Arcana stuff like Whirling Frenzy and the Urban Ranger, etc) and liberally reflavor whatever setting-specific stuff we want to use (Favored by Guild of Tyr the Even-handed becomes Favored by Guild of Lady Iji the Celestial Inquisitor).
The only three rules that I've ever seen consistently regarding using feats/items/dumpster diving in general is that: 1, you have to be able to produce a copy of whatever you're using (book, PDF, JPG); 2, if your character is overclocking compared to everyone else, then a few parcels of whatever you've been relying on (feats, items, what-have-you) get nerfed following a discussion that sometimes involves the entire group rather than just GM and player; and 3, if it adds in a whole new system such as Incarnum or Psionics then there needs to be a prior discussion (ToB almost always gets a free pass here, no discussion needed).
Past that, I've never had a hard time bringing 3rd party stuff in. The conversation typically ends with, "let's try it out but if it's out of hand we'll have to claw it back".
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:42 pm

> deanruel87 wrote:Wait? You are allowed to use Bo9S? Play Crusader,

Lago has hate for the crusader. I've never quite understood why, but that's his choice.
My favorite melee build is a Warblade focused on Stand Still with a touch of Mage Slayer. Thicket Of Blades can be gotten either through feats or items, as can the 9th level divine spirit strike.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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