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name_here
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Post by name_here » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:51 pm

Stay on the shore; it's going to be quite some time before you can reasonably expect to take the fight to the seas. T'ien Chi at least can natively get items to take an army underwater, but those are a bit on the expensive side and your troops will be at a severe disadvantage underwater. You'll really want to be able to cast the underwater battlefield enchantments before you get in an underwater fight. Also, if you can it's best to get actual amphibious troops if you have good ones available.
Underwater nations tend to have troops that are vulnerable to archery, so make a lot of archers for your defense.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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K
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Post by K » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:53 am

Yeh, the shore is your friend. It takes a lot on investment to get into the ocean and for a while it won't be worth it.
On the bright side, you can set up killing zones for enemy troops because you know where he is coming from. Using province defense as chaff and some basic support like archers and mages can basically mean leveling up some troops for free and keeping his overall power levels low.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:59 am

Be advised, though, that water provinces tend to border a rather large number of land provinces. You probably won't be able to fortify every province adjacent to his blob heavily enough to fight off the blob.
Also, he'll probably be looking to build exactly one land fort+lab, so he can have a secure base to summon things in. When that happens, he'll be able to start bringing in trolls and suchlike, so it's very much a good idea to stop him from doing that.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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maglag
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Post by maglag » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:12 am

Well Atlantis just dropped some 30 PD on that coastal province along his troops, don't really have anything now that can reliably crack that right now, in particular with Autumn at the doorstep and my Wot5e getting half HP for the next 3 months.
However Atlantis seems to be funneling everything he can at that stand, including stopping taking other nearby UW provinces, so I guess I'll just let him turtle while I keep moving troops around to capture other indie land provinces in the neighourhood. Come winter, my Wot5E will be back at normal HP and I should have massed enough composite bows to crack whatever amount of PD he has.
Last edited by maglag on Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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maglag
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Post by maglag » Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:33 pm

Atlantis deploys their pretender to the frontlines.
Doesn't have regen, but between mistform, ethereal, 20 prot, liquid body and a crapload of HP it's pretty much impossible to kill by damage.
However it "only" has astral 4, so my plan A right now is get a bunch of S mages on its path and spam astral duel. Four S1 mages and 2 S2 mages should do the trick.
But the question now is, does Luck protects against Magic Duel (kraken is carrying a Lucky Coin)? Or is magic duel spell truly "Save or die, ignore all defenses"?
EDIT: And as you may've noticed that's a crystal amazon province he's turtling in, but luckily seems like he didn't remember to stat recruiting crystal sorceresses.
Last edited by maglag on Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:10 pm

According to this thread magic duel is unaffected by Luck, Twist Fate or any of that.
Don't forget he can call his God back, and will likely not fall for the same trick again. However the limited slots on a Kraken do lead to some weaknesses. For this build most of it's defenses are negated by magic so massed Evocations are probably the way to go.
Last edited by Red_Rob on Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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maglag
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Post by maglag » Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:23 pm

Thanks for the clarification!
Also although he may call the god back, he'll lose 1 of every magic path plus the gear if I'm not mistaken. That means he won't be able to cast mistform nor forge another amulet of the fish, severly reducing the threat of the kraken.
Now to plan the ambush...
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:47 am

With an 80 point new path cost it does seem an ... odd choice to go for A2 and W1. I'm pretty sure I could find a better use for 160-odd design points.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:36 am

I don't believe krakens normally have arm slots, so I suspect a mod.
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maglag
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Post by maglag » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:37 am

Just checked, krakens do have four arm slots and two miscellaneous slots in vanilla alright.
I believe Air was so that he could forge the amulet of the fish, otherwise the kraken would be stuck underwater.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:23 pm

Yeah, Atlantis doesn't have native air access, so if he wanted a viable late-game SC pretender he'd need to pay up. Mind, usually the Kraken chassis is advised for giving you an extra expansion army in the early game and nothing else because getting it magic costs so much.
If the magic duel plan doesn't work out, it's worth pointing out that he's got that giant chunk of HP because Pretender HP scales to dominion, and going by the mod inspector he was in ten of his candles for that one. If he's in ten of your candles that would be a much less intimidating number. Though at least in Dom3 pretender HP was calculated before moving, so it would scale to the dominion in the province he's in at the beginning of the turn.
Also, when you need something with magic resistance and lots of protection and hitpoints dead, cast Gifts From Heaven: for when you absolutely, positively need a giant asshole dead. Accept no substitutes. Precision isn't so good, but you can just keep casting.
Last edited by name_here on Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:56 pm

> maglag wrote:I believe Air was so that he could forge the amulet of the fish, otherwise the kraken would be stuck underwater.

Oh, I can see the reason but I really question whether it is worth it.
If you want an amphibious expander you can use a Wyrm and spend the 160 points on +4 scales. If you want an amphibious SC you can get a Drakaina and save a hundred points. Hell, I'd even gamble on being able to trade for an Amulet of the Fish before spending 4 scales worth of points on those paths.
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maglag
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Post by maglag » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:11 pm

Is Akashic record worth the 10 pearls to check how another nation is doing? Was thinking of using it on Atlantis to get an idea of exactly how far they are.
Also someone captured the throne of the night that causes darkness for 6 months. Atlantis troops have darkvision so screw that noise, gonna search and research and forge for that time.
Meanwhile my land neibhours:
-Abyssia to the north somehow hasn't built any other fort despite we being in the third year, but hasn't stalled either.
-Xibalba to the north got a nice chunk of land, seem to be investing in searching, researching and forging as well.
-Mictlan to the sout has been building an huge pile of jaguars and warriors right next to our border for multiple turns. We have a NAP, I know it isn't worth any more than the computer pixels it was written on, but if they plan to backstab me they're sure taking their sweet time.
-Hellheim has just captured Ur's capital who had gone AI and has a large chunk of land. Can't really keep track of their glamour troops, but I know their bless is just F4/S4. Also have a NAP with them, worry they'll go after me now.
Only nations at war seem to be Machaka vs sidhe and Formoria vs Pelagia (with Formoria invading the waters).
Marveni seems to be pretending they're LA Ulm
Last edited by maglag on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mlangsdorf
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Post by mlangsdorf » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:44 am

Akashic Record gives you the cumulative score graph from the start of the game until the time you cast the ritual. So it will give you relative army size, relative accumulated dominion, relative gems and gold income, relative research, and relative province size. It's the same kind of information you get by having score graphs on or by infiltrating a spy into their capital.
Is that worth 10 astral? Depends on how much astral you're earning and what else you can spend it on, but I'd expect no. You could cast Astral Projection 5 times with those pearls, or if you can cross path with earth, you could make a Stone Sphere and be able to cast Astral Projection every turn.
Sure, scrying a province isn't the same as getting the score graphs, but it's possibly more useful for knowing what's happening in that province you're thinking about attacking.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:51 am

On the other hand, knowing if they have less research than you or twice as much research as you is a very handy thing to find out, speaking from experience.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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maglag
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Post by maglag » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:37 am

Isn't there a chance of astral projection frying your mage's brain if there's another astral mage in the other province?
And yeah, I would like quite a lot to know where Atlantis stands in terms of relative research, also forts to know how many mages he can be recruiting per turn and gem income and whatnot.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:35 am

Astral Projection and Mind Hunt have a chance of brain-frying, but Astral Window is safe. Stone Sphere lets you Astral Window every turn, so you get a no-cost no-risk scry on whichever province you need. It's pretty handy if you don't have a good scout network, or if your enemy is somewhere you can't get to (like Underwater).
Don't forget Mictlan can recruit Jag Warriors in any fort so you might just be seeing the troops he has recruited from that fort. It's important to remember that Blood nations can ramp up production much more than gem nations, so leaving a blood nation alone in the midgame can often result in an unstoppable juggernaut late game.
Last edited by Red_Rob on Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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maglag
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Post by maglag » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:14 am

Thing is I have scouts in some other of Mictlan's forts and they all have less than 100 dudes. Heck the cap itself only shows some 20 sun guards. And their fort at our borders has 390 dudes. Right next to my connection to Atlantis coast. I fear that moving on force to push Atlantis out of there would mean Mictlan moving around with that huge pile to surround me.
Stone sphere looks like a nice trinket, I'll forge myself one.
I still casted Akashic records, don't regret it. Atlantis was actually ahead of research from me most of the game, only recently I managed to get ahead, but I have a massive lead in gold and gems.
However a bit more troubling is that Atlantis has been slowly gaining more provinces over the last turns. All indie stuff should've been captured by now and Pelagia and R'yleh and Oceania are in-game, so Atlantis has either been munching one of the land AI players or have gone to war with somebody else (and are winning).
Since I found a Magus site I was considering building an army around stellar cascades, but that can't be used UW. Gah few things can be used UW. Efficient or not, I don't see a way of dealing with that triple brand teleporting kraken if facing them underwater.
Also started talks with Hellheim's neighbours that don't have borders with me to gank the glamour nation.
Abyssia just finished their first non-cap fort, still look quite vulnerable but they're on the opposite side of my domain than Atlantis/Mictlan/Hellheim. Maybe I could still take them on with a minor force. Drop a bunch of remote attacks and flying hounds in a big alpha strike.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:06 pm

I don't have a clear picture of where you are in this game, so I'm not sure what's most important here -- winning combats, or preserving mages. Magic Duel is your best bet to kill him fast, but it can be very expensive for T'ien Ch'i. You'd have to build 16 Masters of the Way to get 4 S1, and Masters of the Way are terrible. You'd much rather be stacking up masters of the dead at half the price. About the only reason to make masters of the way in bulk is to get communion slaves, which of course you blowing up for your duel. You're only S2 is the 1 in 4 Celestial Master, and if you roll an S2E1 you definitely want to keep him alive. Losing any celestials is painful, although I suppose the S2s aren't actually especially valuable compared to the rest.
Killing Gods
First off, make sure to curse him. You can do it with a gem on a master of the dead or without a gem on an N-random celestial.
If you can afford to let the kraken mulch some troops and temporarily flip provinces, you could try casting horror mark on him a few dozen times. You either script your masters for horror mark X5, retreat, or go horror mark X5, stay behind troops. I have seen astral mage AI continue spamming horror mark against enemy gods, and if you have enough chaff, the mages should rout before the kraken reaches them. I do worry about the AI on celestial masters though; with that many paths, it's hard to say what they'll do. Spamming marks is vastly more effective if you have researched Light of the North Star. Horror Mark can be used underwater.
Underwater Combat:
Conjuration research is really strong. Masters of the Dead can use their spirit-summoning spells. They're really good except against Atlantis (who have basalt weapons). At least they get Ghost Grip. Research 6 and 7 bring School of Sharks and Living Water, which are both very powerful. Living Water is W4, while School of Shakrs is only W3, but because of its gem cost, you can't boost your path with gems. A W2 master of the way can cast either with summon water power. You can make it cheaper or more effective with water lenses and/or water bracelet. W1 guys can summon power and then do the weaker sharks or elementals. This is also where Light of the North Star is.
With high-end research, Alteration is even better. The good stuff is all super high-level research or dependent on Construction, but it's really good. Frozen Heart doesn't work on Altanteans, but Liquify and Bone Melter do. Quickening and Wave Warriors are super strong. All the earth spells work: destruction, earth meld, curse of stones, marble warriors, maws, etc. Unfortunately you need communions, power of the spheres, and/or boosters to use them. All the nature stuff also works. Your nature mages suck but at least they can cast Swarm. All the Air illusions work. Blindness, Boil, and Incinerate work. Battle Fortune, Doom, and Will of the Fates work.
Evocation is going to be disappointing, but if you research it anyway, there's a bunch of bizarre crosspath spells your masters can use. Geyser, for some reason, is allowed. It's weak but has basically no cost, so that's cool. Astral Fires, Nether Bolt, and Nether Darts all work, and they're all great against inferior Deep One MR. Arcane Bolt works against magic beings. Water Strike is allowed and is not terrible against unarmored targets. (Most of the mono-death spells are also allowed but your death mages aren't good enough)
Enchantment is disappointing. You get friendly current, which is good, and very little else. Strength of Giants and some nature buffs, basically.
All the astral thaum attacks work. So do the fear spells in D and N.
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maglag
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Post by maglag » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:00 pm

Thanks, that's some pretty nice advice.
The kraken had gone missing for some turns but now it teleported again into one of my provinces. Atlantis doesn't have any troops in place to reinforce its position, so I'm gonna go to try the mind hunt ambush.
Alas my S1 masters of the way are out of position to attack that province, although they're loaded with pearls and they'll be moving into another province of mine I predict the kraken may try to attack next.
Meanwhile I have 3 S2 and a couple S1 celestial masters in position to fly to the province the kraken just took along some 50 celestial hounds and if the flying dogs don't manage to tear it apart right away before buffs, magic duel should. I'll probably lose some celestial masters but I really need to get rid of that kraken to take the fight underwater. The kraken could move, but I strongly suspect it will stay in place building a lab to teleport again and trying to bait more forces to eat. Atlantis seems to have traded a ring of regen which makes the kraken pretty beastly.
Just to make sure, the bonus +1S from power of the spheres count towards Magic Duel, correct? Ditto for astral cap and crystal coin. If they don't increase one's odds of winning magic duel, well, my situation is a lot uglier.
Or I could just ignore that kraken, mass forge rings of water breathing and take my mage pile underwater.
EDIT: Wee, Xibalba just ended our NAP-3. Says he wants to "keep options open".
Last edited by maglag on Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Thu Aug 06, 2015 5:28 pm

> maglag wrote:Just to make sure, the bonus +1S from power of the spheres count towards Magic Duel, correct? Ditto for astral cap and crystal coin. If they don't increase one's odds of winning magic duel, well, my situation is a lot uglier.

Unfortunately Magic Duel only looks at base Astral - boosters and spells are ignored. I believe empowerment works as it raises your base score, but nothing else unfortunately.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:05 pm

Yeah, magic duel strictly compares base astral after empowerment. Well, penalties may or may not count, particularly the pretender death penalty, not sure.
Last edited by name_here on Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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K
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Post by K » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:26 am

There should probably be a special shout-out for Fear. Basically, SC strategies are vulnerable to a single guy with a pan staff and 20 PD.
This means that by cutting off the escape provinces and then hitting the SC with fear can be a really effective way to kill gods and the like.
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maglag
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Post by maglag » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:30 am

Eerr, there's no pan staff item in Dominions 4 as far as I'm aware.
Also I was under the impression that a pretender, having 30 morale, would be immune to fear effects besides auto-rout from 25% HP. Would panic/terror spam be able to drive it back without actually dealing damage?
Kraken retreated to a lab province. At least I retook the provinces Atlantis had taken. I suspect Kraken will teleport over my big troop blob with little mage support that just retook a province. Plan is to set that army to retreat while flying my celestial master stack there to intercept and magic duel the kraken (plus flying dogs).
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:54 pm

In context I'm assuming "pan staff" means panic staff, probably the Skull Standard (2 handed item that casts allows the wielder to cast Panic every round for 5 fatigue).
With regards to Pretenders routing from Fear effects, this thread on Desura suggests that Morale 30 units wouldn't rout from Fear alone. In fact this thread suggests that they don't even roll for Morale checks. They only leave the field when hp loss triggers an autorout. So spamming Fear effects against a lone Pretender would seem to be ineffective.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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