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## Smite is better than LoL, let me count the ways

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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Wed May 14, 2014 3:40 am

..
Last edited by ubernoob on Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Wed May 14, 2014 3:50 am

I wish Shonen Jump would license their characters for a MOBA, they would do that if they felt like making a zillion dollars in every country on the planet other than USA.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Wed May 14, 2014 4:53 am

> Kaelik wrote:

> > PhoneLobster wrote:edit: also as for "not knowing what you were talking about with maps" it's odd that you single out the Volcanoe map as not needed because the tiny ARAM map totally had 1v1 and 2v2 covered. What with the Volcano map as originally promised was supposed to be an extra giant map for huge sprawling 6v6 game play.

> Once again you colossal fucking retard. No one cares about your personal forum arguments from 4 fucking years ago.

So to reiterate. While I have fully admitted my knowledge of recent developments in LoL is incomplete from the very first post, over all my assumptions on the current state of affairs have generally been largely correct and instead of supplying any information to the contrary all you can manage is to hurl the insults of a fan boy who's fan boy feelings are feeling butt hurting.
Then, when you get caught out being utterly embarrassingly wrong talking about events from a period YOU apparently don't know anything about your response is "fuck you I was er... talking about some OTHER cancelled map yeah sure, all along, yep, totally". And then you attempt to insultingly dismiss factual events that were not so much "my forum arguments from 4 years ago" as they were common knowledge to anyone playing the game 3 years ago.
The hypocrisy is impressive considering your ENTIRE angle of attack here has been "Your knowledge of recent events is incomplete!".
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed May 14, 2014 2:42 pm

> PhoneLobster wrote:So to reiterate. While I have fully admitted my knowledge of recent developments in LoL is incomplete from the very first post, over all my assumptions on the current state of affairs have generally been largely correct and instead of supplying any information to the contrary

No, to reiterate, your assumptions have been repeatedly completely wrong over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. And I have supplied endless information to the contrary, all of which directly and flatly contradicts your stupid assumption, as have others. And each and every time you have responded with "But my ignorance means that it doesn't matter that I was wrong." Only to turn around and lie about the exact thing you were just proved wrong about in the very next post.

> PhoneLobster wrote:Then, when you get caught out being utterly embarrassingly wrong talking about events from a period YOU apparently don't know anything about your response is "fuck you I was er... talking about some OTHER cancelled map yeah sure, all along, yep, totally".

No, then I was completely and totally correct about the thing I was talking about, which is the cancelling of the volcano map that they recently cancelled, and the fact that they also did other things in 2010 is completely irrelevant to the thing I am talking about, which has always been LoL in 2014, and not LoL in 2010.
The TL;DR summary of everything I have said is that comparing LoL in 2010 to Smite in 2014 is stupid and you are stupid for doing it, and so what LoL did or did not do in 2010 is completely fucking irrelevant to every single issue I have ever talked about.
So once again. You are completely fucking wrong in literally every single criticism you have voiced of LoL. Even if they were true in 2010, which they probably weren't, they aren't true now, and you are wrong, and it would not fucking matter if they were true in 2010 because this is in fact 2014. You idiot.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Sat May 24, 2014 3:52 am

kaelik, you said you look at champion design, but you don't play Dota?
The design is way better. Heroes have abilities are not wet noodles.
Peace favour your sword.
I only play 3.x
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat May 24, 2014 4:10 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:kaelik, you said you look at champion design, but you don't play Dota?
> The design is way better. Heroes have abilities are not wet noodles.

That sentence not.
That being said, I'm not sure what wet noodles you are complaining about, because it goes both ways: If your champions are wet noodles, it means that abilities can't kill them, which means the abilities are wet noodles. It the abilities are not wet noodles, it means your champions get killed by a small number of them, which makes the champions wet noodles.
Ultimately, I don't think any sentence about wet noodles counts as champion design, since scaling the tankiness of champions is just a pace of game decision or something else like that, and not a champion design statement.
By champion design I am talking about their kits and how they structure how you use a champion. So a Singed is very different from a Tryn or a Yasuo or a Nasus. Just taking all the one second stuns and making them five seconds stuns doesn't change the champion design any more than Adding 2000 health to everyone, or giving everyone +100 AD at level 1.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Sat May 24, 2014 4:50 am

I Meant more along the lines of stuff like Legion Commander's ultimate.
She duels someon. Only AAs for a few seconds. whoever wins gets +10 AD forever.
That makes your abilities count more, and is not an ability that happens in lol
There are more abilities in Dota 2 than in Lol, and I think that makes the game better. Also, in Dota 2 you can build tanky, and it does matter. I built an assault cuirass and a heart of turasque, and I was tanking tower hits...
The only complaint I have about Dota 2 is how hard snowballing is. But the champions are definitely more interesting.
Peace favour your sword.
I only play 3.x
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Sat May 24, 2014 4:51 am

Also, PARTY LUX!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8IbH9swrP8
Peace favour your sword.
I only play 3.x
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat May 24, 2014 5:05 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:That makes your abilities count more, and is not an ability that happens in lol

All of those are abilities that exist in LoL. I'm really not sure what you think is so great about that ability. And once again, champion design is about how the abilities combine to create a whole, not one ability.
Nasus is a champion who stacks to be better than you, and he has a bunch of abilities to help him get there and the ability to get people next to him and use it.
How is a champion who has a retarded as fuck duel ult that adds AD better designed than Nasus? I can't possibly answer that question unless you tell me how all the abilities work together.

> AndreiChekov wrote:Also, in Dota 2 you can build tanky, and it does matter. I built an assault cuirass and a heart of turasque, and I was tanking tower hits...

Yes so? You can build tanky in LoL and it does matter. My point is that when you call something a wet noodle you are just saying you want things further towards one extreme or the other.

> AndreiChekov wrote:The only complaint I have about Dota 2 is how hard snowballing is.

Then you should learn how to play Dota 2, because snowballing is way the fuck easier when you can deny creeps, which baits the enemy out from tower because lane freezing is easier.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Sat May 24, 2014 5:15 am

LEgion commander has an AOE that deals more damage and gives her move speed based on the number of enemies hit
Her w makes an ally attack faster and regen
Her e gives her a chance to counter attack and she gets bonus lifesteal on that hit.
Her ult forces her and an enemy to auto attack for a few seconds. If either dies in that time, the winner gets +10 attack. (which is equivalent to +30 in Lol)
What I mean by building tanky is that the wet noodle thing is an ability thing. It doesn't make one's champion feel like a wet noodle, it makes one's reflexes feel that way. counter play matters more, dodging is more important, and if you can survive to build the right items, then you can dodge less and take hits more. The wet noodle thing is that I would rather have champions do more damage to each other so that the gameplay is less about trading and more about killing.
If a player gets one kill, and you aren't careful afterwards, they get a huge advantage. Denying is actually not a totally big deal. There are two levels of play, and if you are playing competitively then, yes deny deny deny, but if you aren't, then it doesn't matter because most people don't care that much.
I know I'm pretty bad at DOTA 2, but I'm much better at it than Lol because the game makes more sense. And abilites count more.
Still can't get templar assassin though... :*(
Peace favour your sword.
I only play 3.x
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat May 24, 2014 5:35 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:LEgion commander has an AOE that deals more damage and gives her move speed based on the number of enemies hit
> Her w makes an ally attack faster and regen
> Her e gives her a chance to counter attack and she gets bonus lifesteal on that hit.
> Her ult forces her and an enemy to auto attack for a few seconds. If either dies in that time, the winner gets +10 attack. (which is equivalent to +30 in Lol)

I don't see how any of that synergizes to create a better designed champion than any LoL champion.
This is actually exactly what I am talking about. So many champions in so many games are just a collection of random abilities. And LoL has a few of those too, but way less most games.

> AndreiChekov wrote:The wet noodle thing is that I would rather have champions do more damage to each other so that the gameplay is less about trading and more about killing.

And do you get how that has absolutely nothing to do with champion design and everything to do with pace, and that moreover that is a clearly just a scale and not an issue of better in any way.

> AndreiChekov wrote:If a player gets one kill, and you aren't careful afterwards, they get a huge advantage. Denying is actually not a totally big deal. There are two levels of play, and if you are playing competitively then, yes deny deny deny, but if you aren't, then it doesn't matter because most people don't care that much.
> I know I'm pretty bad at DOTA 2, but I'm much better at it than Lol because the game makes more sense. And abilites count more.

If you think freezing lanes and denying cs isn't that important then you are never going to be good at any Moba but maybe Heroes of the Storm.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Sat May 24, 2014 6:27 am

Because it is all about her Ulty. Her q closes the gap.
Her w makes an ally do more damage to win that duel, because allies can help
Her e gives her lifesteal to win those duels
Her ult is the duel, and each ult makes the next one easier.
that is synergy. Every Dota 2 hero (that I have played) has that sort of synergy.
I get how that isn't champion design, but my opinion is better than yours, so Dota 2 is better.
That is not what I said. I said that you can play either way. If you find the game fun, you can freeze your rating for matches where people don't care much because you don't, and so you don't advance. If you want to do the denying and lane freezing, and denying towers, and suicide so you don't feed, and all that, then you will be better. But you don't have to because the match making system is not complete shit.
Peace favour your sword.
I only play 3.x
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat May 24, 2014 6:37 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:That is not what I said. I said that you can play either way. If you find the game fun, you can freeze your rating for matches where people don't care much because you don't, and so you don't advance. If you want to do the denying and lane freezing, and denying towers, and suicide so you don't feed, and all that, then you will be better. But you don't have to because the match making system is not complete shit.

So you think not shit matchmaking is not letting all the Diamonds have perma Bronze smurfs. to fuck your ass every day.
That is cute.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Sat May 24, 2014 6:40 am

Their ranking goes up and yours goes down, or stays the same. You have a few bad games and mostly good games.
Edit.
I know I'm cute. Want my number?
Last edited by AndreiChekov on Sat May 24, 2014 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Peace favour your sword.
I only play 3.x
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat May 24, 2014 6:51 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:Their ranking goes up and yours goes down, or stays the same. You have a few bad games and mostly good games.

You just finished praising the matchmaking system that lets you permanently hang out with bronzes who don't know how to freeze a lane. If the matchmaking does that, it can only be because 1) You are really bad and you lose as many games as you win. 2) As you stated, it lets you freeze your ranking so that you don't actually play against people who are as good as you and instead you get to beat up on people not as good.
That is it. Pick one of those. Either you have the same matchmaking as LoL, or you have a system that makes it easier to smurf and only play baddies.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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GreatGreyShrike
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Post by GreatGreyShrike » Sat May 24, 2014 10:47 am

AndreiChekov seems to be fundamentally misstating stuff about the Dota 2 Matchmaking system, so I'm going to have a go at explaining some of it:
There are two matchmaking 'modes' in the game: Ranked and Unranked. The second one is a misnomer, really, which leads to unfortunate misunderstandings like the entire above discussion.
Really, what is going on is that Valve is tracking four different Matchmaking Ratings (MMRs, basically similar to Elo) for each player:
- Unranked Solo MMR
- Unranked Party MMR
- Ranked Solo MMR
- Ranked Party MMR
Then when you queue, depending if you queue alone or with friends it uses solo or party MMR, and if you queue ranked or unranked is uses that MMR.
What initially happens when making your account is that you are given a base MMR that is extremely volatile. This MMR is hidden and is your unranked MMR. When you first queue with a party (or for the first time as a solo) your second unranked MMR is copied off from your other unranked MMR but then allowed to deviate in subsequent matches. As you queue for more and more matches the system gets a better understanding of your skill level and uncertainty about MMR decreases. Eventually, after a largish number of games played (~150 or so, normally) you can start queuing for Ranked. Ranked takes as it's initial MMR your relevant MMRs from unranked. It makes you play 10 games of 'calibration matches' before displaying a numerical MMR, but in those matches the system is already using your base MMR from unranked (but it is somewhat more volatile than usual during the calibration matches, to account for people who will tryhard only during ranked play). There are also a few game modes that only unlock after playing a bunch of games, and queuing for these will also filter out smurfs.
After you have these four numbers on an account, they all work basically the same - it's just that the numbers for unranked are never displayed to anyone, even the player who has those numbers, so people who obsess over numbers can treat it casually. Also, ranked play has slightly more restrictions and stricter penalties to win/loss record for leaving players (losses from a teammate abandoning still count as losses for MMR).
The system basically means you need an accurately calibrated MMR to play ranked, so there is very little chance of smurfing in ranked play. Also, valve doesn't give rarer item drops to accounts until they've had a fair number of games played, so there is some incentive there not to keep making new accounts to troll and smurf with, and there is a bunch of annoying tutorial stuff that happens with each new account (though these measures manifestly do not entirely stop smurfing, they at least attempt to limit it). Also any account that wins and stomps decisively in it's first few games will, due to the systems' mentioned volatility of MMR for new players, will end up in a higher MMR after very few games.
There are no technical measures that wholly prevent someone from making a new account for every game played, and trolling the new players they get placed with by smashing them to pieces on their first games. However, there are measures which seem to do decently to allow people to avoid smurfs even if they play at a skill level similar to new players, so long as they've played a bunch of games to unlock ranked and alternate game modes.
Valve's own statement on how the MMR system works (Dec. 2013): http://blog.dota2.com/2013/12/matchmaking/[/b]
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Sat May 24, 2014 3:45 pm

> Kaelik wrote:

> > AndreiChekov wrote:Their ranking goes up and yours goes down, or stays the same. You have a few bad games and mostly good games.

> You just finished praising the matchmaking system that lets you permanently hang out with bronzes who don't know how to freeze a lane. If the matchmaking does that, it can only be because 1) You are really bad and you lose as many games as you win. 2) As you stated, it lets you freeze your ranking so that you don't actually play against people who are as good as you and instead you get to beat up on people not as good.
> That is it. Pick one of those. Either you have the same matchmaking as LoL, or you have a system that makes it easier to smurf and only play baddies.

I don't consider a loss a bad game. I consider a evenly matched game a good game.
So, yes it is the same as lol. And yes, I don't care about denying, and am stuck at a fairly low ranking, and I have fun a lot.
Peace favour your sword.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat May 24, 2014 3:51 pm

So in summary:
1) Dota II has a fucking identical matchmaking system to LoL, probably because it directly copied LoL.
2) Andrei thinks playing normals means you don't have to deny or freeze, but really, playing normals at bronze levels means you don't have to deny or freeze and Andrei is just losing half his games because he is bad and belongs there, and if he played normals at a high level his MMR would quickly climb to the point where everyone in normals was using those obvious techniques.
3) On Champion design: Andrie does not know what a duel is.

> Because it is all about her Ulty. Her q closes the gap.
> Her w makes an ally do more damage to win that duel, because allies can help
> Her e gives her lifesteal to win those duels
> Her ult is the duel, and each ult makes the next one easier.
> that is synergy. Every Dota 2 hero (that I have played) has that sort of synergy.

So Dota has shitty champ design. Okay. Let me explain, that "Duel" where they auto attack? That is not a Duel, that is a taunt. Duels do not involve other people attacking.
Poppy has a Duel Ult in LoL, it makes it so no one can deal damage to her, so that she can go fight that person. That person can still use abilities on her, and technically other people can still help Poppy, so it is not a perfect duel, but it is more a duel than the taunt you described.
Let me describe lols taunt champion. Rammus. Rammus has a Taunt that is not his ult. His Passive is that his AD increases with armor. His other abilities are rolling into a ball to get somewhere fast and doing damage and a knock up on arrival, and an buff that increases his armor and MR for a short time and deals damage back to anyone who deals damage to him based on the pre-armor numbers. His ult is a relatively long duration AoE damage aura around himself.
So Rammus synergizes with his taunt very well, since he is incentivized to build armor, and then he can roll in to taunt an enemy, and then when they auto him he does damage back to them. And if is going into a big teamfight to taunt an AD carry he can also do sustained AoE damage to the enemy team to sometimes cause them to not peal as well for his teammates taking advantage of the taunt.
Notice how that is way the fuck more tightly designed than "Uses Ult to get AD bonuses that break the RNG." Yes it isn't really and RNG, but the point is to get so much AD that you are unstoppable and win the game. And the way you do that is by taunting people and getting AD when they die mid taunt. That is not a very good design.
Now truthfully, probably no version of stacking extra damage infinitely until you break the game is ever going to count as good design in my book, but that doesn't stop me from playing Nasus a fuck ton, so let me talk about arbitrary number buffing in LoL.
Nasus has a really long powerful slow, and AoE damage and armor reduction field, and ult that does damage around him, gives him health, and increases his AD based on damage dealt, a passive lifesteal amount, a the main piece, a short cooldown buff to his next attack. The buff starts doing very little damage, but each time you use that attack it adds stacks, and those stacks translate 1-1 as increased damage on his next q.
So Nasus has the lifesteal and health buff ult, and an attack speed and move speed slow to keep him alive while farming his Q. And then late game he has the armor pierce and the high damage Q and the move speed slow and the tankiness (because why build non tanky when you have Q) to close on carries and delete them.
Now as before, I think Nasus is bad design because he secretly makes every game about himself, because the other team either has to win hard before he stacks up or shut him down mega hard, because if people play even, he will win the game eventually. But I still think a character who starts weak and has to farm up defensively and has the tools to do that, which later turn into the tools to delete carries is better design than a champ who starts moderately strong and then taunts enemies and snowballs off kills.
Every champ already snowballs of kills. Snowballing slightly harder when you kill them with your ult doesn't seem to really bring anything to the game. And there is no particular reason that the "scale off of ult kills" champ should be the same as the "taunts champions" champ. You could just as easily have a Garen like execute, or even better a Jinx like execute that adds AD.
Jinx ult is a rocket that can be fired as a skill shot anywhere on the map and does more damage the more health is missing. So a Champ who had to land weird skill shots on champs in other lanes or retreating champs to get full power out of their scaling would I think be much better design than a Taunt champion.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat May 24, 2014 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Sat May 24, 2014 4:23 pm

It is a duel because your champion is taunted also.
Can you explain warwick to me then? how is any of that synergy? He just has random abilities.
I played lol for a few years before switching to Dota, so I actually know the lol champions better than the dota ones.
How about Templar Assassin
q 3/4/5/6 stacks of auto dodge and bonus damage on a pretty long cooldown. Each auto attack or hit taken removes a stack. They last for 10 seconds.
w she turns invisible as long as she doesn't move. next attack crits with bonus damage.
e gives her attacks a short range, and they split off to enemies behind the one she is attacking. Straight line (cooler than sivir's auto thing, and tristanas aoe)
r she places a trap. has another ability to activate the closest trap. enemies caught in it lose a ton of movespeed.
So, she gets extra damage. Can gank if she is in the right place with w, and her e lets her farm mid really well. Ulty ensures no enemy leaves alive.
Also, Jinx is really bad design because she is predominantly played at lower levels as a noob stomper sort of like the old xin zhao.
Another thing that Dota has that is better, is that you can buy abilities. almost all of the items have some sort of active ability. You want flash? buy a Blink Dagger.
You want to gain control of jungle monsters? (another ability not in Lol) buy a Helm of the Dominater
Want a bloodthirster that is actually cool? Buy a satanic and have an active that gives you 175% life steal for a few seconds.
Peace favour your sword.
I only play 3.x
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat May 24, 2014 4:58 pm

> AndreiChekov wrote:It is a duel because your champion is taunted also.

No I mean really. Do you understand what a Duel is. Try this test, which of these is a duel:
A) This Fight
B) This Fight

> AndreiChekov wrote:Can you explain warwick to me then? how is any of that synergy? He just has random abilities.

There are over 100 champs. If you are just going to pick ones until you kit on a badly designed one this is a waste of time and I can just spoil you that the answer is Sion. PS, Sion is on the rework list for precisely this reason.
Warwick is an Attack Speed tank. All his abilities increase his attack speed and heal him with more attack speed. So you just run around attacking the ADC because squishies are the only people who take meaningful damage, and when they attack you you just keep tanking until your team kills everyone else. How does Warwicks kit not synergize to a specific theme?

> AndreiChekov wrote:How about Templar Assassin
> So, she gets extra damage. Can gank if she is in the right place with w, and her e lets her farm mid really well. Ulty ensures no enemy leaves alive.

So.... How is that better champ design than Vayne, Varus, Sivir, Lucian, Jinx, Cait, whatever? I mean, for god sakes, that is literally just an AD Teemo with dodge replacing move speed and melee sometimes.

> AndreiChekov wrote:Also, Jinx is really bad design because she is predominantly played at lower levels as a noob stomper sort of like the old xin zhao.

Well first off, you are absolutely wrong about Jinx being used primarily as a noob stomper. Secondly, anyone can use any champ as a noob stomper if they are stomping noobs. I didn't actually claim Jinx is well designed, because I don't have strong opinions about ADC champ design because I do that the least. I just pointed out that her ult is a better fit for scaling AD champ because it requires weird tough skill shots to get that AD instead of just trying to set up a gangbang.
Secondly, I see basically nothing about Jinx that is poorly designed. Her q is actually a nice trade off for an adc, her ult is cool but really doesn't need synergize with anything and doesn't, her e is a nice take on the escape ability that adcs need, an her w is whatever, but not really any more or less whatever than varus q or cait q or any other adc poke ability.

> AndreiChekov wrote:Another thing that Dota has that is better

1) Who fucking gives a shit. This isn't Dota vs LoL. I specifically said the reason I play fucking LoL is the champ design. Anything that is not Champ design is completely fucking irrelevant. Please stop bringing it up. If you want to make a thread about how Dota is better than LoL make that thread.
2) Stop saying "Another Reason Dota is better is because it has more purple." No one cares about your personal preferences but you. Something like whether you can buy abilities is something that is clearly a preference, just like pace and tankiness.
3) League also lets you buy items with fucking actives. That is not even a difference.
4) No, League doesn't have the ability to control Jungle creeps. Who the fuck cares? How is controlling jungle creeps better than being a champion with pet mechanics?
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat May 24, 2014 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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GreatGreyShrike
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Post by GreatGreyShrike » Sat May 24, 2014 6:03 pm

> Nietzsche wrote:The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.

AndreiChekov, I strongly recommend that you reconsider what you're doing. Unless of course you actually like LoL better than Dota and are a sockpuppet or something. I mean, my favorite game is Dota 2, and I have a couple thousand hours of it played. I have no idea how much Dota 1 I played, but it was a lot - multiple thousands of hours at least. Your arguments for Dota are embarrassingly bad.
There are many things to like about both LoL and about Dota. Most of them come down to personal preference - some people like games with longer, more impactful disables, some people like games with more skillshots, some people like games where lane control has mechanics like pulling and denying, some people like games where mana limits don't force you to heavily limit ability use early. These are all preferences, and I don't think either one is one-way-or-another clearly right or wrong.
There are only a very few things that are probably objectively better or worse for League compared to Dota:
1) Dota's client and software is better. Graphically - it has similar lower limits and system requirements as LoL if you turn both all the way down, but it has a much higher upper end. The interface is actually good and responsive. The networking code is even more solid. There is a good interface encouraging and allowing viewing your own replays in-client, other people's live games, including tournament games, in-client, with commentators. You can also do things like coach friends with tools to draw basically on their screen and so forth. There's also really solid voice chat support in-game. The communications system with alt-clicks for missing calls, item use cues, and chatwheel support is also just solidly better than LoL's.
2) LoL's servers are better/more reliable and in more/better locations, especially for South America and South East Asia - this results in them having far less problems where people from Peru queue into North American servers because they actually get better pings there, for example. Valve has been dragging their feet on this issue for a long time, and I have no idea why. Steam basically prints money, you'd think they could afford to have servers for their games.
3) LoL has more players worldwide and a large fanbase means good networking effects when you join - it's more likely the game your friends already are playing and so forth.
4) Dota's system of free-to-play is way better than LoL's system of unlocks. In Dota the only thing that requires unlocking is a few game modes that are mostly suited to higher-skill games anyways (things like captain's draft for hero picking) and they tend to unlock after like ~100 games total played. Everything else that impacts the gameplay is unlocked for free in Dota, barring aesthetics such as huds/announcers/character hats/wards/couriers/etc. This is way better than grinding up runes and hero unlocks and the like.
Almost everything else comes down to personal preference for things to be one way or another. I could see thinking that it was stupidly hard to play heros like Meepo and Invoker and Chen and that not having these sorts of things in the game was a net benefit to LoL as they are stupidly tough to master, unintuitive to fight against, and have mechanics vastly dissimilar from other heros, making them amazingly annoying to new players both to play as and to play against - your first game, and possibly first dozen games, as a Meepo, you will lose, your first game against someone who knows how to play Meepo well you will almost certainly lose too. I could also see thinking that having a largely static metagame where there is always a similar set of heros and roles that have to be fulfilled in a game is bloody boring design and way less interesting than a wild system where EternalEnvy can pick a core/carry Jakiro (hard support) and crush a professional team. I could see prefering League's tall grass system of fog obscuring, or Dota's high ground system. I could see prefering League's many wards with small impact or DotA's few wards with large impact. I could see liking symmetry or asymmetry in maps. Etc. Trying to persuade people that they are wrong for liking what they like is a losing proposition, imo.
Last edited by GreatGreyShrike on Sat May 24, 2014 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Akula
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Post by Akula » Sat May 24, 2014 11:35 pm

> Kaelik wrote:1) Dota II has a fucking identical matchmaking system to LoL, probably because it directly copied LoL.

Since dota explicitly isn't using Elo it is not the same.

> So Dota has shitty champ design. Okay. Let me explain, that "Duel" where they auto attack? That is not a Duel, that is a taunt. Duels do not involve other people attacking.
> Poppy has a Duel Ult in LoL, it makes it so no one can deal damage to her, so that she can go fight that person. That person can still use abilities on her, and technically other people can still help Poppy, so it is not a perfect duel, but it is more a duel than the taunt you described.

Except that Legion Commander duels force both people to fight each other without the benefit of many items and passives, evoking the idea of a "fair" fight. While Poppy's ult incentivizes you duel the person you aren't intending to man up on so that the guy that you are on top of can't do anything to you. How does one constitute better design again?

> Let me describe lols taunt champion. Rammus. Rammus has a Taunt that is not his ult. His Passive is that his AD increases with armor. His other abilities are rolling into a ball to get somewhere fast and doing damage and a knock up on arrival, and an buff that increases his armor and MR for a short time and deals damage back to anyone who deals damage to him based on the pre-armor numbers. His ult is a relatively long duration AoE damage aura around himself.

The taunt hero in dota is Axe. Axe has a chance to spin and deal physical damage to everything around him every time an attack command is issued on him, he also has an AoE taunt to force people to attack him and gives him 50 armor, for reference a powerful armor item gives 15-20. He has a dot that slows the target and buffs his speed which lasts for a long time unless the target gets a last hit or a deny. His ult straight up kills anyone below a certain hp threshold and when it does he buffs everyone in a large AoE's move and attack speed for a pretty long time. Axe is designed for force enemies to be more aggressive and allow for more aggression from his team, which fits his flavor as a homicidal soldier. He is typically a midgame initiator for his team, and he can bully very well in the laning phase.

> Notice how that is way the fuck more tightly designed than "Uses Ult to get AD bonuses that break the RNG." Yes it isn't really and RNG, but the point is to get so much AD that you are unstoppable and win the game. And the way you do that is by taunting people and getting AD when they die mid taunt. That is not a very good design.

Dual is a big piece of cc that takes an important hero out of the fight and incentivizes you to look for pick offs. Second you get 18 damage from a level 16 duel win, and you feed that to the other guy if you lose, but to contrast with that you can buy an item that gives 300 damage. Since you don't play dota at all maybe you are not actually qualified to talk about the relevant strength of the hero design between the two games.
Still all of this is subjective, maybe you like the the spamable nuke or buff + gapcloser + CC that many league heroes have as their kits. Maybe you like that dota has heroes that do wacky things and many with a unique gimmick. But where-ever you fall on that issue it is your right to be happy with it. GreatGreyShrike has a pretty accurate summary of what each game has going for it objectively, and neither is better than the other from what it brings to the table. I would say that dota has a worse learning curve than league as well, with more obscure and differing mechanics. I mean league has 3 kinds of damage which is clean and simple and dota has like 6 or maybe 7.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat May 24, 2014 11:55 pm

> Akula wrote:Except that Legion Commander duels force both people to fight each other without the benefit of many items and passives, evoking the idea of a "fair" fight.

So you smoke crack? You are right, nothing says "fair fight" like declaring that the Rapier and Claymore fighter are going to have a fair duel where each party has one arm tied behind their back and the scoring is based on points.
Declaring that neither party gets to use the things you don't use is literally the exact opposite of fair and exactly what people see as not fair. And for fucks sake, the part where you "duel" someone by casting an attack speed on other people and having them kill them is literally the furthest thing you could ever get from a fair fight in the mind of any sentient being that has ever existed.
What the ability evokes is the idea that you should taunt one guy in a pick, and have your team murder him, and then for no reason at all randomly get some AD for it so that you can late game outscale everyone with enough taunts.

> Akula wrote:Dual is a big piece of cc that takes an important hero out of the fight and incentivizes you to look for pick offs. Second you get 18 damage from a level 16 duel win, and you feed that to the other guy if you lose, but to contrast with that you can buy an item that gives 300 damage.

And you get three damage for a stack with Nasus. So fucking what, the point is that you get lots of stacks it adds up. Duel is a taunt that works like all taunts in that incentivies you to pick offs. It works slightly differently than all taunts in that you are less willing to use it as CC during a big teamfight because you might give them ad instead, but it is still just a taunt that adds AD for no reason.

> Akula wrote:Since you don't play dota at all maybe you are not actually qualified to talk about the relevant strength of the hero design between the two games.

Since I'm not the one claiming people should switch game specifically because the champion design is so much better maybe the burden of proof isn't on me and if people bring up shitty champion design to try to convince me to switch to their game that is their fault?

> Akula wrote:maybe you like the the spamable nuke or buff + gapcloser + CC that many league heroes have as their kits.

Maybe you should try to figure out how League works before you talk about their champs. Mids might be more than 1/5th the champions, but sort of by their nature they can't be more than 1/5th the players in a game, and not even all that many mids fit that description. Saying "The two rolls that have the most standardization because their entire job is damage, mid and ad, usually have these things in common in an extremely vague way" is not a compelling endictement of samey champions, since it is the tops/jungle/supports that have the biggest room to deviate in what their specific abilities are.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Akula
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Post by Akula » Sun May 25, 2014 1:21 am

> Kaelik wrote:

> > Akula wrote:Except that Legion Commander duels force both people to fight each other without the benefit of many items and passives, evoking the idea of a "fair" fight.

> So you smoke crack? You are right, nothing says "fair fight" like declaring that the Rapier and Claymore fighter are going to have a fair duel where each party has one arm tied behind their back and the scoring is based on points.
> Declaring that neither party gets to use the things you don't use is literally the exact opposite of fair and exactly what people see as not fair. And for fucks sake, the part where you "duel" someone by casting an attack speed on other people and having them kill them is literally the furthest thing you could ever get from a fair fight in the mind of any sentient being that has ever existed.

That wooshing sound everyone just heard was the subtext flying over Kaelik's head. Yes Kaelik, the ability is never fair in practice, that is kinda the point, but the debuff is the same for both participants so the fight is "fair". Also you HoT and buff yourself by the way.
I'm still waiting for you to explain why you think pointing at someone twenty feet away and yelling, "IT'S TIME TO D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-DUEL!" then turning around and punching the guy next to you in the dick is a better mechanical representation of a duel.

> Kaelik wrote:What the ability evokes is the idea that you should taunt one guy in a pick, and have your team murder him, and then for no reason at all randomly get some AD for it so that you can late game outscale everyone with enough taunts.

Late game scaling is tricky, games don't go to infinite time so in practice a Medusa will still probably outscale an LC unless the LC is getting a duel kill literally off cooldown assuming things drag out into the late game.

> Kaelik wrote:And you get three damage for a stack with Nasus. So fucking what, the point is that you get lots of stacks it adds up. Duel is a taunt that works like all taunts in that incentivies you to pick offs. It works slightly differently than all taunts in that you are less willing to use it as CC during a big teamfight because you might give them ad instead, but it is still just a taunt that adds AD for no reason.

This is the whole not playing dota thing popping up again, an LC that won't duel is not going to have much of an impact in teamfights. You have to risk losing the duel sometimes to take advantage of a 4+second taunt that disables passives like evasion and crit.

> Kaelik wrote:Since I'm not the one claiming people should switch game specifically because the champion design is so much better maybe the burden of proof isn't on me and if people bring up shitty champion design to try to convince me to switch to their game that is their fault?

That isn't what you are doing, this:

> Kaelik before wrote:So Dota has shitty champ design.

Is a positive statement that requires proof, and when you say this:

> Kaelik same post a little further on wrote:Notice how that is way the fuck more tightly designed than "Uses Ult to get AD bonuses that break the RNG."

The implications is not that you are saying, "I find your arguments that Dota has better design unconvincing" but instead that you are saying, "Dota has bad design, and League of Legends has better design than dota." Both of which require proof. So yeah, the burden of proof is, in fact, on you.

> Kaelik wrote:Maybe you should try to figure out how League works before you talk about their champs. Mids might be more than 1/5th the champions, but sort of by their nature they can't be more than 1/5th the players in a game, and not even all that many mids fit that description. Saying "The two rolls that have the most standardization because their entire job is damage, mid and ad, usually have these things in common in an extremely vague way" is not a compelling endictement of samey champions, since it is the tops/jungle/supports that have the biggest room to deviate in what their specific abilities are.

This post is basically just you being super ignorant about dota and projecting your ignorance onto others. Unlike your 0 games played of Dota, I have played hundreds of hours of LoL. Lets see how many champs fit my throw away line: Irelia, Rammus, Udyr, Lee Sin, Shen, Darius, Blitzcrank, Xin Shao, Leona, Tryndamere, Shaco, Pantheon, Renekton, Nautilus, Wu Kong, Warwick, Fizz, Jax, Maokai, Shyvanna, Nidalee, Diana, Ammumu, Alistar, Akali, Nocture, Riven, Ahri, Cait, Corki, Elise, Evelynn, Ezreal, Fiddlesticks, Fiora, Gragas, Graves, Hecarim, Jarvin, Jayce, Kassadin, Katarina, Kennen, Kha'zix, LeBlanc, Lissandra, Olaf, Orianna, Poppy, Rengar, Sejuani, Skarner, Talon, Tristanna, Twisted Fate, Urgot, Vayne, Valdimere, Ziggs, Aatrox, Zed, Vi, Yasou, Zac, Thresh, Quinn, Braum, and Malphite. So like 70+ Champs? Dude the lack of diversity among LoL champs is an acknowledged joke in the League of Legends community. Because of the hyper rigid and riot enforced eurolane meta, champs need to have certain skills to be considered not shit. But just to repeat myself: it doesn't matter if lots of league heroes are similar, if you like that then good for you, I just reject the idea that either of the games is explicitly, objectively, better designed than the other.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun May 25, 2014 2:40 am

> Akula wrote:That wooshing sound everyone just heard was the subtext flying over Kaelik's head. Yes Kaelik, the ability is never fair in practice, that is kinda the point, but the debuff is the same for both participants so the fight is "fair".

I'm just going to leave these two sentences because the first one is explaining how your point was that it isn't supposed to be fair, and your second one is you then declaring that it totally is fair again.
And those contradict each other. If you are going to defend it as not supposed to be fair, don't immediately turn around and defend it as actually fair.

> Akula wrote:I'm still waiting for you to explain why you think pointing at someone twenty feet away and yelling, "IT'S TIME TO D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-D-DUEL!" then turning around and punching the guy next to you in the dick is a better mechanical representation of a duel.

Here let me summarize. A duel is between two people. So an ability that excludes any number of people from a fight, even one, it actually infinitly more duel like than an ability that excludes no one. And by the way, that isn't the only way to use Poppy's ult, so a non zero number of times Poppies ult will be used to exclude someone from a fight, as opposed to NEVER EVER DUEL COMMANDER who will never ever use the ability to exclude someone from a fight.

> Akula wrote:This is the whole not playing dota thing popping up again, an LC that won't duel is not going to have much of an impact in teamfights. You have to risk losing the duel sometimes to take advantage of a 4+second taunt that disables passives like evasion and crit.

No, this is the you not being able to read thing popping up again. I said less likely than a taunt that didn't risk giving AD to the other team. Because there exist a non zero number of situations you would not use this ult in a teamfight, and there exist zero situations that you would use this ability but wouldn't use a taunt that didn't give AD to the enemy. Less Likely is not Unlikely.

> Akula wrote:

> > Kaelik wrote:Since I'm not the one claiming people should switch game specifically because the champion design is so much better maybe the burden of proof isn't on me and if people bring up shitty champion design to try to convince me to switch to their game that is their fault?

> That isn't what you are doing, this:

> > Kaelik before wrote:So Dota has shitty champ design.

> Is a positive statement that requires proof, and when you say this:

> > Kaelik same post a little further on wrote:Notice how that is way the fuck more tightly designed than "Uses Ult to get AD bonuses that break the RNG."

> The implications is not that you are saying, "I find your arguments that Dota has better design unconvincing" but instead that you are saying, "Dota has bad design, and League of Legends has better design than dota." Both of which require proof.

You are right. There is no possible way that the implication of what I said could be that I found his arguments unconvincing.
I mean, first he said:

> kaelik, you said you look at champion design, but you don't play Dota?
> The design is way better.

And then when I asked what he meant he specifically brought up Legion Commander as his argument for better champion design, and then specifically went over Legion Commander's abilities, and then I specifically responded by quoting his arguments about how Legion commander was a better designed champion, and then I proceeded to make comments specifically addressing his specific arguments for how Legion Commander was a champion that demonstrated better design.
There is absolutely no way that in that context my comments could possibly be seen as a statement about his arguments. I mean who ever responds to arguments with a response to those arguments? Obviously when someone responds to specific arguments that they just quoted they are really talking about completely unrelated things that have not been mentioned at any point. Obviously that is what is going on.

> Akula wrote:So yeah, the burden of proof is, in fact, on you.

No it isn't. You completely and utterly worthless dickbag. No it isn't.

> Akula wrote:This post is basically just you being super ignorant about dota and projecting your ignorance onto others. Unlike your 0 games played of Dota, I have played hundreds of hours of LoL.

Yes yes, you have a big dick. Your dick is huge. We get it.

> Akula wrote:Lets see how many champs fit my throw away line:

Sure, but first let's actually fucking quote your actual fucking line again, and then I'll just delete everyone who doesn't have one of the three things you said everyone has.

> Your actual statement wrote:spamable nuke or buff + gapcloser + CC

Udyr, Darius, Shaco, Pantheon, Renekton, Fizz, Jax, Maokai, Riven, Cait, Elise, Graves, Hecarim, Jayce, Kassadin, Kennen, Kha'zix, LeBlanc, Lissandra, Poppy, Sejuani, Skarner, Talon, Vayne, Ziggs, Aatrox, Zed, Vi, Yasou, Zac, Thresh, Braum.
So like actually 31 champs. And that was leaving in a lot of bullshit and being super generous to you, like counting half second 15% slows, silences, blinds, and brief two unit displacemets as real CC, and counting champs that have multiple things on a single ability, even though you implied that the three things was a comprehensive list of their abilities, instead of just three things a champ has in addition to 3-4 other things they can also do. And god, I felt sick inside when I counted Thresh's fucking Flay as a "spammable nuke" and included him because that is literally the dumbest thing that could ever possibly be said ever, but I let it slide because I am so fucking generous.
And you still just straight up lied about a bunch of shit like Fiora's and Katarina's and Nidalee's CC and Twisted Fates gap closer.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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