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RelentlessImp
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Post by RelentlessImp » Wed Apr 06, 2016 9:03 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:Polar Ray was bizarrely split from the more versatile 3rd edition spell of Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. No one knows why it was made 8th level, or why anyone thought Otiluke's Freezing Sphere was too versatile.
> -Username17

It's three spells in one! It's like getting three spells for the cost of one spell slot! Even though it's woefully useless for a sixth level spell, that gives wizards too much power! Oh, yeah, and that haste thing, too, let's get rid of that while we're at it. And let's make sorcerers have to take full rounds to use metamagic, they're clearly too powerful, even over wizards!
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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:56 am

Why is there such a discrepancy on the evaluation of anticipate teleportation?
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:17 pm

> zugschef wrote:Why is there such a discrepancy on the evaluation of anticipate teleportation?

Do you mean why is it such a low level on the Summoner list? Or do you mean why do some people regard it as a niche spell and others flip the fuck out about how necessary it is?
In both cases, the answer is the same: it's a good counter to an otherwise abusive tactic that most DMs are going to refrain from using on the players but which would ultrakill them if it was used.
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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:08 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:

> > zugschef wrote:Why is there such a discrepancy on the evaluation of anticipate teleportation?

> Do you mean why is it such a low level on the Summoner list? Or do you mean why do some people regard it as a niche spell and others flip the fuck out about how necessary it is?
> In both cases, the answer is the same: it's a good counter to an otherwise abusive tactic that most DMs are going to refrain from using on the players but which would ultrakill them if it was used.
> -Username17

Right. That explains a lot. My DMs used to teleport murder the party all the time. The game was factually unplayable without that spell.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:00 pm

For a 3.Tome game, someone has expressed interest in playing an Undead. Mainly because the SS/LM monstrous progressions make him (and everyone else) sad. The ideas he was considering are: an intelligent skeleton, haunted armour, something incorporeal if that could ever work, and a ghoul
The most easy of these is the ghoul: it's 2 HD and CR 1, that's a level 2 creature. That's such a low level it doesn't need its own prestige class. Alternatively the Necronomicon Ghoul that can take class levels straight from level 1 and still spreads a disease by biting people. Optionally taking Paragon levels, although the stench would leave him a ghast.
I am not sorry for that pun. At all.
Skeleton: I bet there are things that basically fit all the criteria. Or it could just be "Human Skeleton, take class levels as normal, has mental ability scores to the point of being [Dark-Minded]. Zero racial hit dice or level adjustment."
Haunted Armour: I'm not sure. A Swordwraith or Revenant or Disgaeagame Ghost could maybe just take levels in Knight or something and never remove the armour? Is there a relatively low-CR creature that fits this well and is generally playable?
Incorporeal: Disgaeagame Ghost sounds easiest, but obviously different people have different ideas of how incorporeal you need to be to properly be considered a ghostly thing - or there could specifically be the "bad touches" that (all?) incorporeal undead have. I mean if we ignore the assorted issues of 24/7 Incorporeality...
*Shadows are kind of stupid (intellect-wise), but their ability scores are otherwise pretty regular, 3 HD with Turn Resistance 2 at CR 3 means playing one at level 4 fits "the general Tome rules". At a level 5 game that means one level in an actual class and even if enemy Clerics rock up at the party level, the worst that happens is running away or cowering. Only one actual special attack for those hit dice. Also, not powerless in light, despite what the name and description might suggest.
*Allips are better as level 4 creatures, what with having 4 hit dice and a number of special things (three). Except of course cannot speak intelligibly
*Spectres are beyond the scope of the starting level, and also retreat into their pokeball in the sun
*Wraiths are just about in the ballpark... except they also shrivel in the sun.
*Maybe use the Ghost Template, using the CR modifier instead of LA? But the whole "Basically can't be killed" thing has to be kept in mind as a thing. Maybe worked in as "Even if there's a TPK, you wander back and seriously recruit the replacements and tell them what to look out for when going to loot the old corpses"?
*Spectral Lyrist (LM)? It's 6 HD at CR 4 (level 5), and has a little bit of Bard music plus Charisma Drain (which it has to use in order to feed).
With all of that said, being always incorporeal does bring problems. We're talking a 50% miss chance against the attacks of most things, various "doesn't wield weapons" creatures being unable to do anything, every dungeon starting with "I'm going to float through the walls and scout everything out for us" and so on. Obviously when you pay for an ability (by it taking up levels), it needs to come up often enough and be useful, but "someone is incorporeal" is the kind of thing that always has to be kept in mind.
Thoughts?

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Eikre
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Post by Eikre » Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:46 pm

All of those things you've named have wildly different ouvres outside of "I used to be differently alive, before," so what is it that the player actually wants? Just to write "Undead" on his character-sheet? Slap Necropolitan on him and call it a day.
This signature is here just so you don't otherwise mistake the last sentence of my post for one.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:01 am

From discussions, I think there's a certain amount of "wanting to be a thing that's usually an actual enemy", so staying closer to "actual Monster Manual entries" is probably preferable.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca » Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:51 am

I have a backstory written up for a ghoul paladin that I've wanted to play for a while but never did.
Basic idea is that she led an army against a big bad evil necromancer who based himself in an area where nothing living would grow. The campaign dragged lout longer than anyone expected, supplies ran out, and the army was forced to eat its own dead in order to survive. Rather retreating, like a reasonable person would, she ordered everyone to march on. Deserters became rations. This was not an action taken lightly, but one done out of grim necessity.
Eventually, her forces were whittled down by the undead hoards that they were fighting. She herself died quite ignominiously above a latrine pit when vampires snuck into the camp, the guards, being insufficiently rested and insufficiently fed, were not as watchful as they should have been.
They dumped her in the pit, slaughtered the tiny remains of her army, and that was that. Until she crawled out of the latrine pit, ordered the corpses of her army to march on and finish the mission, and they did. Eventually gutted the necromancer they were at war with and sent the vampires into the sun, but she was left with a crazed army of ghouls under her command. They retained their lawsful good alignments through sheer fanatical obsession, and she retained her Paladin abilities, but they still needed to eat. o they roamed the countrysiide hunting down evildowers, bandits, and the like to feed their insatiable hunger for flesh.
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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:33 am

Human Skeleton: Take the Tome ghoul. Remove the unliving subtype and the bite attack. Add claw attacks.
Haunted Armor: Take the Tome revenant. Give them the armored in life ability of the Tome monk, including the "you lose this ability if you wear armor" part.
Incorporeal: The ghost template is probably worth the three levels it would cost under Tome rules, and easily worth the two levels it could cost if you don't add one to the CR adjustment. But a level 3-4 ghost is as OP as it is squishy, so I can't really recommend just letting someone be a ghost unless the rest of the party is level 7+. If you're starting at a level lower than that, you'll probably need a different solution. I say smash Revenant and Swordwraith together, and then write your own three level ghost paragon class that hands out the abilities from the template. Don't let them take the paragon levels all at once. Put some reqs on it, like 3/6/9 or something.
Ghoul: There is a Tome ghoul, so that's fairly easy.
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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:56 am

Ghost
"Boo."
When someone dies with regrets or some unfinished business, there is a chance that they may return as a ghost. Ghosts appear somewhat insubstantial, but they are not truly incorporeal.
Type: The character's type changes to undead and the character's former type becomes a subtype with the "augmented" modifier. The character also gains the dark-minded subtype.
Hit Dice: The character's BAB, saves, and skills are all unaffected. The character must reroll his hit points, but every hit die is a d12.
Ability Scores: The character loses their constitution score.
Skills: The character gains a +2 bonus to hide and move silently.
Special Qualities: The character gains turn resistance +2. The character heals completely at the setting of the sun unless he is in a Tomb or hallowed area. This healing can even bring him back from destruction. If a ghost is slain inside of a Tomb or hallowed area, they will not return from the dead. Otherwise, ghosts can only be killed permanently by plot contrivances made up by the GM.

Ghost Paragon
"BOO!"
Special: A character's levels in the ghost paragon class may not exceed 1/3rd of his character levels, rounded down. This means every third level (3/6/9) can be a level in the ghost paragon class. When characters die and return as a ghost, they may choose to exchange levels in other classes for levels in the ghost paragon class, subject to the limitations already described. Unless otherwise noted, all abilities have a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 character level + charisma modifier and a caster level equal to the ghost paragon's character level.
Hit Die: d12
Base Attack Bonus: Half
Good Saving Throws: Will
Skill Points: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
Class Skills: I so don't fucking care.
1 Telekinesis, Bad Touch, Creepy Stare
2 Incorporeality, Spooky Noise, Unwanted Guest (1/day)
3 Etherealness, Unwanted Guest (at will)
Telekinesis (Su): The ghost paragon can use telekinesis as a standard action.
Bad Touch (Su): The ghost paragon's touch attacks benefit from the ghost touch special property. Whenever the ghost paragon makes a successful touch attack against a living creature, that creature takes 1d10 + charisma modifier damage and 1d4 damage to an ability score of the ghost paragon's choosing. Whenever the ghost paragon deals damage with this ability, he heals five hitpoints.
Creepy Stare (Su): Once per round as a free action, the ghost paragon may designate one living creature within 60ft. If that creature meets the ghost paragon's gaze, it must make a fortitude save or take 1d10 + charisma modifier damage and 1d4 damage to an ability score of the ghost paragon's choosing.
Incorporeality (Su): The ghost paragon becomes incorporeal. The ghost paragon cannot turn this ability off.
Spooky Noise (Su): As a standard action, the ghost paragon makes a spooky noise. All living creatures within 30ft must succeed on a will save or become panicked for 2d4 rounds. This is a sonic necromantic mind-affecting fear effect. Creatures which make the save are immune for the next 24 hours.
Unwanted Guest (Su): As a standard action, the ghost paragon may cast magic jar except that the ability has a range of touch and does not require a receptacle. Creatures which make the save are immune for the next 24 hours. You cannot use this ability if you are already possessing someone.
Etherealness (Su): The ghost paragon becomes ethereal. As a standard action, the ghost paragon can stop being ethereal (or start being ethereal again). When not ethereal, a ghost paragon is still incorporeal.

So, you're a ghost with two levels in rogue. You stab things like a normal rogue, except unlike normal rogues you keep standing back up after you die. For your third level, you pick up your first level in ghost paragon. Now you have a touch attack that deals damage, so you start sneak attacking with that. You also get to pick a dude once per round and fuck him with the bastard sword that is your eyes. Each of these attacks has a bit of ability score damage on the side. Also, telekinesis is a thing even if your caster level isn't great yet.
For your next two levels, you continue being a rogue, but for your sixth level you pick up your second level in ghost paragon. Now you are incorporeal, so you are even harder to detect or kill, and you can also ghost your way past a bunch of obstacles. Once per day you get to possess a dude for a couple hours. You can make everyone run away screaming, but friendly fire is a concern, so most of the time you probably won't.
For your next two levels, you continue being a rogue, but for your ninth level you pick up your third level in ghost paragon. Now you can be ethereal, so you are yet again even harder to detect or kill, and you can also ghost your way past even more obstacles. I think. I can't remember what's actually different between being incorporeal and ethereal and what abilities interact with each and blah blah blah who cares. You can now possess dudes all the time.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:09 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Eikre
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Post by Eikre » Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:38 pm

Looks pretty damn good. "Final death" rules could use some hammering. Probably doesn't satisfy anybody if you can be killed in just any tomb. Better if it needs to be your tomb, which can incidentally be pretty much anywhere if they exhume your body and show up with it when they come to exorcise you. One should assume said body is indestructible due to the same spirit voodoo that keeps bringing your ghostly figure back.
Probably you also die if you achieve the purpose which kept you around in the first place, but that shouldn't be any earlier than when the campaign ends so nobody should mind. Maybe at the final Ghost Paragon level you shed these vulnerabilities and then you can feel nice about being a terrible quasi-deific figure like Beetlejuice or Saint Nicholas for the next thousand years.
This signature is here just so you don't otherwise mistake the last sentence of my post for one.
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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:09 am

In this case, Tomb is a Tome keyword. It's a special place with funky effects on undead, usually because a bunch of people are buried there. Amongst other things, it blocks the creation of undead/undead spawn. Not being able to come back to life inside of a Tomb (or hallowed area) is lifted from the revenant, whose "oops, I'm dead, see you tomorrow" ability has the same limitation. "Having fulfilled your purpose" is meant to fall under plot contrivance, which I have left deliberately vague because whatever.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:55 am

With the "1/3 levels" caveat for the Ghost class, a 4th level of ghost would be 12th or higher, which probably an acceptable time to have auto-res powers with no caveats. It's not like character death in D&D is super meaningful in the first place.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:19 am

Thanks for creating that - I showed it to him, and he's pretty happy with it. Being relatively unfamiliar with Tome stuff, he was delighted with the names of the abilities.
And yeah, I figure the Plot Contrivance thing could just be directly tied to the Background of the character. Or failing that, the uncapitalised not-game-term background. Because most people who want to play an Undead have an answer for the question "How did you die?"

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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RelentlessImp
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Post by RelentlessImp » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:17 am

I can see a reason for the World's Largest Dungeon to exist; I really can. Despite how terrible that was, I can see why it was made. However -
Why does this companion piece, World's Largest City, exist? It is literally 750 pages dedicated to detailing a D&D city that has around "250,000" people in it. It even utilizes 2Eisms such as "demi-humans". Why does this thing fucking exist, and how, with a population of a quarter million, does it get the balls to call itself "World's Largest"?
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:35 am

Maybe it's the single largest urbanized area? The city being physically big doesn't mean it's the most populous. Alaska contains fewer people than Rhode Island and all that.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:59 am

Because people have trouble with scale?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:53 am

What do y'all do when your players lose a combat, fail the crucial skill check/challenge, etc. that still has the game rolling and not ending in a TPK.
Are there any modules/adventure paths/etc. that detail the price of failure but still has the adventure go on?
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RelentlessImp
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Post by RelentlessImp » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:09 am

Out of those I've read, an add-on to Shackled City (Drakthar's Way), Way of the Wicked, and Savage Tide all have sections where "failure" does not equate to "the game ends". Savage Tide's defense of a piss-small commune can be totally failed and have the game continue on, and Way of the Wicked actually posits that you failed from the word go (as the introductory adventure is escaping from PRISON) and, IIRC, has a suggestion that you play out the "failures" that lead to the PCs being captured and imprisoned.
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:07 pm

> DSMatticus wrote:You can make everyone run away screaming, but friendly fire is a concern, so most of the time you probably won't.

Or, the ghost spooks the party every morning until they all make their save, so he knows they're immune by the time the combat music starts playing. I personally wouldn't care, even if it seems munchkiny as hell. It's just behavior I would sort of expect from a party with this sort of character.
That being said, I like the template and class. I get why they aren't incorporeal for the first five levels, but do you think they should get a +4 bonus to Hide for being semi-transparent?

> DSMatticus wrote:Now you can be ethereal, so you are yet again even harder to detect or kill, and you can also ghost your way past even more obstacles. I think. I can't remember what's actually different between being incorporeal and ethereal and what abilities interact with each and blah blah blah who cares.

I honestly don't remember, either. I know that (certain/all?) gaze effects and force effects extend to the ethereal plane, but I can't think about what this would give you that being incorporeal wouldn't. I suppose you're better at hunting foes that live there, and maybe you fuck with rogues who use a Ring of Blinking better? Maybe not on that last one.
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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:48 pm

> RobbyPants wrote:That being said, I like the template and class. I get why they aren't incorporeal for the first five levels, but do you think they should get a +4 bonus to Hide for being semi-transparent?

Ghosts get a +2 to hide and move silently in the race entry, which is lifted directly from the swordwraith entry, which is also "somewhat insubstantial but not truly incorporeal."
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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:04 pm

> OgreBattle wrote:What do y'all do when your players lose a combat, fail the crucial skill check/challenge, etc. that still has the game rolling and not ending in a TPK.
> Are there any modules/adventure paths/etc. that detail the price of failure but still has the adventure go on?

Red Hand of Doom has five chapters. The fourth ends with a big mass battle thing, but the adventure design allows the game to continue to chapter five even if the players lose the battle. There is also decent coverage of what might happen if the players get captured by the army at earlier points in the campaign, and how escape attempts might be handled.
Since the enemy's actions follow a timeline, it is also possible to roll up a new party and know what is currently going on if there is a TPK.
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
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RelentlessImp
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Post by RelentlessImp » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:10 pm

> angelfromanotherpin wrote:Maybe it's the single largest urbanized area? The city being physically big doesn't mean it's the most populous.

It's roughly the size of Purwokerto, Java, Indonesia. (Actually it's about a square mile larger; 15.75mi^2 vs 14.90mi^2. 4.5x3.5 miles is not large, even packed full of buildings.) It has a similar population. When was the last time you heard the name of Purwokerto?
Worse, it's likely not even the world's largest city, depending on which campaign you drop it in. Dump it in Eberron; Sharn has a total space (including elevation) of 28 square miles. Dump it in Forgotten Realms, Waterdeep or Neverwinter probably are larger with less population.
If it's not the actual largest city in your campaign world, and its population isn't justifying the size, and the book doesn't give explanations, what the fuck is the point of the book?
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:28 pm

> RelentlessImp wrote:

> > angelfromanotherpin wrote:Maybe it's the single largest urbanized area? The city being physically big doesn't mean it's the most populous.

> It's roughly the size of Purwokerto, Java, Indonesia. (Actually it's about a square mile larger; 15.75mi^2 vs 14.90mi^2. 4.5x3.5 miles is not large, even packed full of buildings.) It has a similar population. When was the last time you heard the name of Purwokerto?

A random Wiki dig pulls up the factoid that a .25M population over ~15sq.mi. roughly matches Jersey City. That place is more likely to be recognized than Purwokerto. Real world history has been producing cities larger than this since 200 BC.
Last edited by virgil on Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by RobbyPants » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:32 pm

> DSMatticus wrote:

> > RobbyPants wrote:That being said, I like the template and class. I get why they aren't incorporeal for the first five levels, but do you think they should get a +4 bonus to Hide for being semi-transparent?

> Ghosts get a +2 to hide and move silently in the race entry, which is lifted directly from the swordwraith entry, which is also "somewhat insubstantial but not truly incorporeal."

Yes, I looked back at it, and it's right in there, under skills. Nevermind me.
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