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## *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Username17
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### *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by Username17 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:59 am

OK, we know that Half-Orcs are the victim of three things:

1. The designers badly overestimate Strength.
2. The Designers hate "monstrous" characters.
3. The designers hate half-breed characters.

So Half-Orcs, like Goblins, and Kobolds, are in desperate need of increased attributes. Half-Orcs could get by fine with a +2 to Strength and no penalties at all. That's not even a big deal. It puts them in the same ballpark as Hobgoblins, where they're a playable race that gets modestly positive attributes in exchange for having a list of super powers and bonuses so short that they could be added to that of the Deep Halfling or the Forest Gnome and noone would ever notice.
But they're still short. Thematically it works - you get half the strength modifier of the Orc and you don't suffer any of the Orc's penalties. But that, Darkvision, and a Copper Piece will get you some ale and stale bread in a wayfarer's inn on the road to the Marsh of the Wheel.
So here's the question: what thematic, dare I say it - bullshit abilities are thematically appropriate for a Half-Orc?
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by RandomCasualty » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:07 am

Well honestly, I don't really see how half-orcs are necessarily a "bad" race as written. While it's true they probably have more penalties than they should, they're such a niche race that it doesn't really matter. The typical half orc fighter/barb doesn't care that he has an int or cha penalty. It's a few less skills, but the fighter list is such ass that he could generally care less anyway. Though we could make them slightly better by dropping the int penalty.
I'd keep the cha penalty simply because half orcs are supposed to be ugly and generally uncharismatic, so the cha penalty fits I think. They're also supposed to be intimidating fuckers, so lets give em a racial bonus to intimidate. I'd also maybe throw them toughness as a bonus feat. Just because.
What I'd do with the half orc is this:
+2 str, -2 cha.
-+2 racial bonus to intimidate
-Darkvision 60'
-Orc Blood
-Favored Class: Barbarian
-Bonus Feat: Toughness
Even looking at that it still seems they need more though I'm not sure what.
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DP
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by DP » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:42 am

My problem with half orcs aside from the stupid mechanics is that they are half-human and half-orc. Neither humans or orcs want to make half-orcs so I don't understand where they come from. If humans don't want a pig faced baby that is dumber and socially awkward they won't keep them. The whole concept of half orcs is preposterous. This is a legacy mechanic that was rightly tossed and then wrongly resurrected. If the mechanics were better they could just rename the race somekind of orc. It is not as though they have any problem having subtly different types of orcs be calle dmountain orcs or deep orcs. Half Orcs are stupid because they don't exist.
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User3
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by User3 » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:41 am

In my highly homebrewed 3.clik I gave half-orcs the following.
1) +2 Str and choice of either -2 Int or -2 Cha.
2) Darkvision 60'
3) Orcish weapon familiarities
4) Orc and human blood (I was going to actually make these relevant for more magic items)
5) Choice of either a extra feat at level one, or extra skill points as a human (humans in my brew had their extra skill points plus an extra feat at level 1 and every 3 levels)
This was in a free-form d20 play test where players get a minimum of 4 feats per level to pimp out whatever class abilities they wished to emulate.
RC, they are mechanically inferior and extra deficient on the fluff abilities too. If they're not bad as written then we're really setting the bar way too low.
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PhoneLobster
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by PhoneLobster » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:44 am

Screw it.
Wipe the poor bastards out.
My house rule for ALL half breed races goes like this.
For ease of administration half breed kid grows up with all the racial abilities of ONE parent.
Basically they call themselves a half orc but they write orc or human on their sheet in the race entry.
Half breed races stop sucking and don't require a massive write up of every hybrid race potentially in your setting.
Of course as you know I personally despise most racial abilities and modifiers anyway on principle so there is no way I'm ever going waste time to fix up the half orc by producing an off the hip racial write up no one ever wants to use.
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User3
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by User3 » Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:46 am

Definitely a racial bonus to Intimidate.
Definitely not weapon familiarity. Weapon familiarity is pretty much lame no matter what you do with it. It either discourages variety in weapon selection because gives fighters a weapon that is arbitrarily better than the others in the same category (dwarven war-axe). Or it gives fighters a goofy weapon that you don't care about and will probably never use because people will make fun of you (hooked-hammer, double-axe).
I like the idea of half-orcs getting more special senses, the way dwarfs get Stonedcunning and gnomes get Speak with Rodents. They really need something that sets them apart, and justifies their existence as a race. Not Scent, because Scent will automatically negate Invisibility and Move Silently at low levels and the ability really ought to be rewritten entirely. But maybe an ability like Scent, since orcs have a frickin' pig's snout for a nose and because being able to smell things is "primitive" and "barbaric."
Something like this:
Orcish Scent: Orcs (and half-orcs) have feral senses that allow them to nose out blood, sweat and treasure. Certain abilities and conditions (such as being underwater) counter these traits.
Smell gold: A half-orc is aware of the presence of gold within 60 feet per character level. A half orc does not know the direction of the gold unless he has an unbroken line of sight and the amount of gold within a single 5-foot square weighs at least 1 pound (50 gp) per 10 feet of distance.
Smell violence: If a corporeal creature within 120 feet is injured for at least 1 hit point of lethal damage, the half-orc is instantly aware of the direction of the creature and the amount of damage inflicted.
I think those sorts of abilities would be fun and interesting , as well as helping to explain anyone would hire orcs to guard their fortress of doom when evil halflings would be much better look-outs otherwise.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by RandomCasualty » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:56 am

> Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1150180873[/unixtime]]
> RC, they are mechanically inferior and extra deficient on the fluff abilities too. If they're not bad as written then we're really setting the bar way too low.

Well, I agree that they tend to be inferior to dwarves, though dwarves tend to be on the overpowered side. I guess I really don't see the half-orc barbarian as being inferior to the elvish barbarian or the gnomish barbarian for instance.
Half-orcs have fighting classes as their niche, and they're alright at them. At least better than the majority of races anyway. Dwarves do it better, but honestly, they buffed the dwarf too much in 3.5 anyway.
My point isn't really that half-orcs are good, they're not. My point is that they're still playable as written.
Really IMO it's the half-elf who just totally blows. I mean, they're not good at anything. It's like you're an elf, only you get half the benefits.
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Crissa
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by Crissa » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:28 pm

Blood, sweat, and gold.
Like elves and the hidden doors. I like it.
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Username17
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by Username17 » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:11 pm

Here's the deal on orc fvcking:
In D&D, Charisma is generally distinct from physical attractiveness. Having a high charisma means that it's easy for you to get your way in social settings, but it doesn't necessarily mean that people want to stick themselves into your mouth. Ghouls, for example, have a high Charisma. And while they'd be perfectly happy to eat you, that's probably not on your list of goals.
The AD&D Orc had a poorly drawn pig-head. Half-orcs existed only because they were in Tolkien and for no other reason. Noone actually knew where they came from in a world where you actually can terminate unwanted pregnancies.
But the 3rd edition Orc isn't pink and hairless with curly hair. He's a muscular greenskin. In short, the 3rd edition Orc looks like the Warcraft Orc, so Orc women look less like farm animals and more like this:
The fact that Orcs have a racial penalty to both Diplomacy and Sense Motive means that they are easy, not that you don't want them in the sack. Orcs that you don't want in bed have a hard time talking you into it (as tey have a hard time talking to anyone about anything). But the Orcs you do want are nearly 10% more likely to sleep with you than an equivalently attractive human.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by RandomCasualty » Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:22 pm

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1150398686[/unixtime]]
> In D&D, Charisma is generally distinct from physical attractiveness. Having a high charisma means that it's easy for you to get your way in social settings, but it doesn't necessarily mean that people want to stick themselves into your mouth. Ghouls, for example, have a high Charisma. And while they'd be perfectly happy to eat you, that's probably not on your list of goals.

Charisma is one of those oddball stats in D&D.
It's supposed to represent everything from looks to leadership ability to sorcerous magical ability. Oddly enough ghouls don't have either of those, and yet they have a high charisma.
I mean it's to a point where you can almost assign whatever charisma you want to things. And I think you can generally make a point for anything not having a charisma penalty, given that creatures like ghouls and hags (yes hags of all things) have high charismas. But still I think charisma is a fairly good stat to penalize for half orcs. I guess we could penalize int alternately, but int screws them more mechanically, penalizing cha makes them look more like dwarves, which is ok I think. Neither the orcish sorcerer or the orcish paladin are really staple concepts, so I think it's ok to penalize cha.
Basically the main reason I'm penalizing orcish charisma is that they tend to be looked down not so highly, yes, they're uglier than humans (check out the half orc female picture in the PHB), they're also generally regarded as being more evil and not quite noble or harmless, the way elves and halflings are regarded.
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User3
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by User3 » Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:15 pm

> RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1150406556[/unixtime]]
> Basically the main reason I'm penalizing orcish charisma is that they tend to be looked down not so highly, yes, they're uglier than humans (check out the half orc female picture in the PHB), they're also generally regarded as being more evil and not quite noble or harmless, the way elves and halflings are regarded.

The problem is, this screws over the idea of an Orcish warlord, which is a fantasy staple. Mechanically, a human (or elf!) is more likely to be leading a tribe of orcs, because the human can get more orc followers and a more powerful orc cohort. If anything, it's the loners (elves, half-elves) who should get low charismas. But of course, charisma is the 'Everything Stat,' so that can't hapen either.
If you're going to penalize a stat, Intelligence seems much more reasonable. Nobody who isn't intentionally playing against steriotypes plays a smart orc. Expertise should be something few orcs have. They should not be natural swashbucklers, or wizards. They are supposed to be decent sorcerers.
Anyway, just my little rant.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:18 pm

Part of the Orcish Warlord staple is that the orcish hoards fight amongst themselves and challenge each other for rank when not directly under orders. Even in LotR they aren't shown having strictly military precision. I chalk that up to a deficiency in leadership abilities.
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Crissa
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by Crissa » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:36 pm

Just because you have Leadership doesn't mean you can get your followers to march in a straight line.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by RandomCasualty » Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:53 pm

> Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1151082945[/unixtime]]
> The problem is, this screws over the idea of an Orcish warlord, which is a fantasy staple. Mechanically, a human (or elf!) is more likely to be leading a tribe of orcs, because the human can get more orc followers and a more powerful orc cohort. If anything, it's the loners (elves, half-elves) who should get low charismas. But of course, charisma is the 'Everything Stat,' so that can't hapen either.

Well, the orcish warlord is pretty much an NPC who has a bunch of 1st level orc warriors and crap following him. I don't attribute it to leadership feat, since NPCs generally don't need to take leadership anyway, they just have X allies.
Also orcish armies tend to be more about intimidation than real diplomacy or leadership. You commonly don't like the orcish warlord, you follow him because you fear him and you think maybe he's enough of a badass to help you kill someone else and get money. So I'd attribute orcish "leadership" more to intimidate checks against low level followers.
Now that being said I do think half-orcs deserve a racial bonus to intimidate.
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User3
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by User3 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:25 pm

Now, I play in Eberron, so orcs live out in the Shadow Marches and such.
Anyways, what I did was give half-orcs a bonus to intimidate and Survival, and give them a bonus to save against disease (Those marches waters aren't all too nice). I know resistance to disease doesn't count for all that much, so you could extend it to a poison or just total fort bonus.
You might even just give them a second stat bonus (like Con), or some element of the human side (like a feat).
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Josh_Kablack
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:49 pm

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1150167551[/unixtime]]
> So here's the question: what thematic, dare I say it - bullshit abilities are thematically appropriate for a Half-Orc?
> -Username17

Here are the three I give them:
• Half-Orc characters may purchase the Scent feat as described in the DMG
• +4 Racial bonus to Intimidate tjecks
• Due to their musculature a half-orc may wield weapons appropriate for creatures one size category larger without penalaty
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MrWaeseL
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by MrWaeseL » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:03 pm

How about a bonus on saves against diseases? That's suitably small and unique to fit on the list of abilities for a core race.
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Caedrus
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by Caedrus » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:34 am

In my game, I give half orcs a +2 bonus to Intimidate, +2 bonus to Survival, and a +4 bonus on saves vs disease. I've been considering a few other things, like perhaps a hint of the human element, or giving the option to remove one of the mental penalties, or perhaps extending their bonus to poison or fort or something.
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PzAz04Maus
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### Re: *&^&ing Half-Orcs

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Post by PzAz04Maus » Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:37 am

> Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1150246005[/unixtime]]\
> Smell violence: If a corporeal creature within 120 feet is injured for at least 1 hit point of lethal damage, the half-orc is instantly aware of the direction of the creature and the amount of damage inflicted.
> I think those sorts of abilities would be fun and interesting , as well as helping to explain anyone would hire orcs to guard their fortress of doom when evil halflings would be much better look-outs otherwise.

Wouldn't that.... be Breaking the 4th wall? *Sees a Half-Orc Jump out and shatter a then invisible pane of etheral glass over the table, and tossles up the DM, threatening him until he gets out the hp books...* Yeah... If you did it RAW as you said, then wouldn't a half orc know how much damage was inflicted, to the accordance of specific hitpoints?.... Yeah, unless you did it like a specific spell that I'm blanking out on, which had HP divided into quadrents (Low, medium, high, max), but with 4 more quadrents, then it'd be a bit better.
EDIT: I also issue a challenge to think that Cha is the simple mechanic of comeliness wrapped up as something else. I think of it more as what an accomplice of mine once said over chat and cookies... http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/A_%27treatse%27_on_Charisma%2C_as_told_by_Maglad
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