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Clutch9800
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Post by Clutch9800 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:31 am

> This of course assumes that the United States doesn't do something really, really dumb like close its borders in the near future and Mexico doesn't join the ranks of the most industralized nation during that time.

There's a much better chance of the former than the latter. Mexico is an absolute basket case with no middle class at all.
I for one don't want my Senate full of bearded Gauls and blue faced Celts!
Clutch
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:05 am

Huhhhh?
Mexico is within striking distance of Russia and Turkey ($12,400 to $14,800 and $12,000) and modestly ahead of Brazil and South Africa ($9,700 and $9,500) in median income. Of course this doesn't hold a candle to the United States ($45,800) but the distance of Mexico from the incomes of South Korea and Israel (27 and 25 thousand) is much smaller than those countries from the United States. Mexico's poverty rate is <3.0% in either direction from any of those aforementioned countries in either direction.
All sources from the CIA World Factbook.
Yeah, people in the Most Industrialized nations wouldn't wipe their asses with Mexico's income, but your statement of Mexico as an absolute basket case with no middle class at all is extremely ill-informed. As far as Industrializing nations go, Mexico ranks pretty favorably.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Clutch9800
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Post by Clutch9800 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:59 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Huhhhh?
> Mexico is within striking distance of Russia and Turkey ($12,400 to $14,800 and $12,000) and modestly ahead of Brazil and South Africa ($9,700 and $9,500) in median income. Of course this doesn't hold a candle to the United States ($45,800) but the distance of Mexico from the incomes of South Korea and Israel (27 and 25 thousand) is much smaller than those countries from the United States. Mexico's poverty rate is <3.0% in either direction from any of those aforementioned countries in either direction.
> All sources from the CIA World Factbook.
> Yeah, people in the Most Industrialized nations wouldn't wipe their asses with Mexico's income, but your statement of Mexico as an absolute basket case with no middle class at all is extremely ill-informed. As far as Industrializing nations go, Mexico ranks pretty favorably.

Having traveled extensively throughout the Republic of Mexico, and worked closely with thier government on a number of initiatives. I have to respectfully disagree with your parsing of factoids.
The only thing that could possibly push Mexico even into "emerging nation" status is another Ice Age.
Clutch
P.S. And this isn't a dig at the Mexican people. The Mexican people are the salt of the earth.
Last edited by Clutch9800 on Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:10 am

> Clutch9800 wrote: Having traveled extensively throughout the Republic of Mexico, and worked closely with thier government on a number of initiatives. I have to respectfully disagree with your parsing of factoids.

I give you hard numbers and you give me a subjective anecdote?
Could you PLEASE define emerging nation/industrializing nation/etc. then in such a way that includes Brazil, Russia, China, South Africa, and India but does not include Mexico? I don't think you can because Mexico has a strong manufacturing base and the average citizen is richer than people in those nations except for Russia.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Clutch9800
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Post by Clutch9800 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:28 am

> I give you hard numbers and you give me a subjective anecdote?

The kinds of lies my friend, Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.
Statistically Mexico is a burgeoning nation with a strong a healthy Middle Class, (so long as you don't look too closely).
Here are some numbers for you:
Mexico:
Population:
23,000,000 (Day)
115,000,000 (Night)
Enchilada Breakdown:
Tortilla: (23%)
Chicken: (35%)
Cheese: (20%)
Mole Sauce: (12%)
Other: (8%)
Fertility Rate:
1 Child/5.8 Tequila Shots
Borders:
None that Mexico is aware of
Currency:
The Peso, broken down into 100 wages
Environmental Advances:
Recently created a car that runs solely on air pollution.
International Disputes:
Regarding how many shifts Emmanuel got last week.
Stereotypes:
Will get around to dispelling that myth they are lazy some time next week.
Of note: Contrary to popular belief, toucans actually prefer Fruit Rings cereal to Fruit Loops, though both will kill them.
Source - Our Dumb World Atlas of the Planet Earth - 73rd Edition
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:44 am

Mexico's actually fairly well developed economically, so if you simply divided GDP with population the result is a respectable average income for each Mexican.
The problem is with the distribution. Mexico has a fairly wide divide between the ultra rich and the ultra poor. So you probably won't see a middle class that's as politically active as that in the US, although the middle class in Mexico has been growing.
That being said, Mexico is already a candidate for eventual promotion to First World status. Give it a couple more decades of solid economic management, and Mexico could even match the economic development of a G7 country.
Which is a lot better than the state of a lot of countries in the world.
Last edited by Zinegata on Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Rathe
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Post by Rathe » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:35 pm

> Zinegata wrote:The problem is with the distribution. Mexico has a fairly wide divide between the ultra rich and the ultra poor. So you probably won't see a middle class that's as politically active as that in the US, although the middle class in Mexico has been growing.
> ...
> Which is a lot better than the state of a lot of countries in the world.

That is rather interesting statement Zinegata, especially considering that the US has been reported as having a shrinking "middle-class". This has been due, almost entirely, to the ability of the rich to get richer and lobby for self promoting and perpetuating legislature.
-Rathe
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Clutch9800
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Post by Clutch9800 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:04 pm

> Zinegata wrote:Mexico's actually fairly well developed economically, so if you simply divided GDP with population the result is a respectable average income for each Mexican.
> The problem is with the distribution. Mexico has a fairly wide divide between the ultra rich and the ultra poor. So you probably won't see a middle class that's as politically active as that in the US, although the middle class in Mexico has been growing.
> That being said, Mexico is already a candidate for eventual promotion to First World status. Give it a couple more decades of solid economic management, and Mexico could even match the economic development of a G7 country.
> Which is a lot better than the state of a lot of countries in the world.

Obviously. Given the fact that they have the worlds richest man and almost certainly have more than a few that are tied for worlds poorest man.
They are however, stumbling blindly toward a total societal breakdown, because the rule of law is very quickly being replaced by the rule of the gun.
Clutch
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:49 pm

> Rathe wrote:

> > Zinegata wrote:The problem is with the distribution. Mexico has a fairly wide divide between the ultra rich and the ultra poor. So you probably won't see a middle class that's as politically active as that in the US, although the middle class in Mexico has been growing.
> > ...
> > Which is a lot better than the state of a lot of countries in the world.

> That is rather interesting statement Zinegata, especially considering that the US has been reported as having a shrinking "middle-class". This has been due, almost entirely, to the ability of the rich to get richer and lobby for self promoting and perpetuating legislature.
> -Rathe

The thing about the US is that even your poor people would count as "middle class" for a lot of countries. A person who makes $10,000 a year in the US is considered poor. A person who makes that much in the Philippines is upper middle class.
Having ultra-rich people honestly isn't a bad thing as long as your "poor" people are still fairly well off.
Also, Mexico's political stability is about on par with the rest of Latin America - and that hasn't stopped Brazil from being expected to break into the G7 club sometime before 2050.
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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:28 pm

Shouldn't the average "well-offness" of a nation also have to take into account cost of living and such?
In that it's a lot easier to find a job that makes $10K a year in Amerika than it is in the Phillippines?
The median income in the US is a lot higher than it is in many other countries, but things also cost a lot more in the US.
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
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Gnosticism Is A Hoot
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Post by Gnosticism Is A Hoot » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:40 pm

> Clutch9800 wrote:

> > A recipe for disaster would be a low native birth rate and a low immigration rate - because that would mean that the actual number of workers in the next generation would be less than the number of workers in the last generation. As long as reductions in birth rate can continue to be made up with by importing trained workers from other countries, the birth rate issue is a non-issue.

> I respectfully disagree.
> The next generation of Spaniards will be less than half of the present generation. With a birth rate of around 1.1 per woman the Spanish as a people, and culture are unsustainable. As far as "importing trained workers" goes. From where? Where are these "trained workers" coming from?
> We can pretend it doesn't make a difference, but we both know it does.
> Why it has worked for the United States for the past 80 years is that the immigrants coming in have assimilated American culture to an extent. (Win, lose, or draw. I don't want to get into a debate on the upsides and downsides of 'American Culture').
> That said, are these trained workers really going to be that enthusiatic about working to support a generation of subsidized ingrates that don't particularly like them? Especially when the Imams start telling them not to?
> Western Europe is commiting cultural suicide.
> Clutch
> P.S. This isn't about the U.S. vs. Europe, or anywhere else. I don't even want to compare the U.S. with anywhere else, because it's difficult to remain objective when we do. (At least for me it is.)

This kind of borderline-racist anti-immigrant bullshit is really fucking disheartening. Bring on 'Moorish Spain'. Bring on an ethnically-diverse population. I cannot see those things as anything other than good.
The soul is the prison of the body.
- Michel Foucault, Discipline & Punish
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Clutch9800
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Post by Clutch9800 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:04 pm

> This kind of borderline-racist anti-immigrant bullshit is really fucking disheartening. Bring on 'Moorish Spain'. Bring on an ethnically-diverse population. I cannot see those things as anything other than good.

Then you can't see.
Clutch
P.S. As a dyed in the wool humanist I really wish you were right.
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Gnosticism Is A Hoot
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Post by Gnosticism Is A Hoot » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:20 pm

> Clutch9800 wrote:

> > This kind of borderline-racist anti-immigrant bullshit is really fucking disheartening. Bring on 'Moorish Spain'. Bring on an ethnically-diverse population. I cannot see those things as anything other than good.

> Then you can't see.
> Clutch
> P.S. As a dyed in the wool humanist I really wish you were right.

I live in one of the most diverse cities in the world, in a country with a significant and growing Islamic minority. I grew up next to a mosque run by Tablighi Jamaat, in a town run by the BNP. I'm an immigrant and the son of immigrants myself (albeit not Islamic). Everything in my upbringing and experience proclaims the value of diversity and immigration, and the ultimately self-destructive nature of ultra-nationalism and isolationism.
Diversity is the only strength there is. Monocultures are vulnerable cultures.
Last edited by Gnosticism Is A Hoot on Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The soul is the prison of the body.
- Michel Foucault, Discipline & Punish
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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:23 pm

> Then you can't see.
> Clutch
> P.S. As a dyed in the wool humanist I really wish you were right.

Then please, oh wise one, enlighten we humble plebes as to why a more ethnically diverse population in Spain is a bad thing.
The worst thing that can happen that I see is that, oh snap, "Western European" culture undergoes some shifts based on who is widely able to contribute to it. But cultural change of some sort is inevitable. And the more Muslim culture integrates with Western culture, the more I have to think that some of the more outdated restrictions of Islam are going to seem outdated to actual members of the Islamic faith. Which is probably a good thing. (Not that Western culture is by any means ultramodern and awesome, but it has undeniable advantages over Muslim culture. Like jeans.) And the more Western culture integrates with Muslim culture, the more likely it is that nonexistent racial stereotypes will fade from the public's mind.
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
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MfA
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Post by MfA » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:31 am

Islam is remarkably sturdy in sticking to the middle ages morally ... and I don't think they are going to come out any time soon either.
The mellowing out of say Christianity can't really be taken as a guide to what will happen to Islam. Christianity was lucky in that Catholic dogma could be nicely tied up with a corrupt church, giving Christians a reset button to get back to just the bible. Islam has no similar way to free itself of the Hadith ... the corruption underlying Islam is centuries old and thus harder to discredit.
As long as they stick to the Hadith women will always be second class citizens to them.
Last edited by MfA on Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:23 am

> Zinegata wrote:The thing about the US is that even your poor people would count as "middle class" for a lot of countries.

Too bad they aren't living there with the associated lowered cost of living.
Instead, they live in the US, with its precariously high cost of living and mandated laws against subsistence.
-Crissa
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:15 am

If we're going to take exchange rate and standard of living into account the equation actually gets better for the US.
(I'm quoting IMF 2009 figures here)
The US is 9th in terms of nominal income per person, but if you take purchasing power into account the US is actually 6th.
Meaning that compared to other countries, Americans make more money and and their purchasing power is superior (meaning that your "high cost of living" is actually lower compared to many other countries in the same industrialized nation bracket).
The only industrialized countries whose cost of living is low enough to greatly affect purchasing power are Singapore and Hong Kong. HK for instance is around 25th in ranking if you account only nominal GDP, but add purchasing power to the equation and they're actually the 8th richest guys on the planet.
Also, another thing to take into account about the "poor" people in the US: They don't have to stay in places like California or in big cities were costs are much higher.
A growing trend for South Koreans is to move to the Philippines once they have some kind of pension. Even at the most minimal, a South Korean pension is typically worth 150K pesos a month - or the equivalent of about $36K a year. So even their janitors can move to the Philippines and live like kings.
Similarly, given the enormous economy of the United States, there are plenty of places one can move to where there are lower costs of living while still having respectable jobs.
So, no, Americans really can't complain about "poverty", because the sort of poverty Americans experience isn't the same sort of starvation level shit that you see in places like Africa.
Last edited by Zinegata on Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:20 am

Yep. You leave that job in California and replace it with...
...Uh...
...Something...
And those particular exchange rates are great for buying foreign produce, useless when renting a house or selling your produce.
Idiot.
While my spouse gets paid the same whether she lives and works in San Francisco or Ben Lomond, the same is not true for 99.9x% of workers.
-Crissa
Last edited by Crissa on Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Clutch9800
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Post by Clutch9800 » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:08 pm

> So, no, Americans really can't complain about "poverty", because the sort of poverty Americans experience isn't the same sort of starvation level shit that you see in places like Africa.

Of course we can't. The "Poor" in this nation wear 100 dollar shoes.
But it begs the absolute question. If we can do it, why can't they do it?
It always starts and ends with the man in the mirror.
I grew up as poor as dirt. My dad was a Fireman. He worked his ass off for ingrates at wages that kept us in apartments until I was 15.
I make enough money now to ensure that my kids won't have to worry about much.
Clutch
P.S. I live in a house that has rich kids in it though. But dealing with that is another whole thread.
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Gnosticism Is A Hoot
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Post by Gnosticism Is A Hoot » Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:54 pm

> Clutch9800 wrote:

> > So, no, Americans really can't complain about "poverty", because the sort of poverty Americans experience isn't the same sort of starvation level shit that you see in places like Africa.

> Of course we can't. The "Poor" in this nation wear 100 dollar shoes.
> But it begs the absolute question. If we can do it, why can't they do it?
> It always starts and ends with the man in the mirror.
> I grew up as poor as dirt. My dad was a Fireman. He worked his ass off for ingrates at wages that kept us in apartments until I was 15.
> I make enough money now to ensure that my kids won't have to worry about much.
> Clutch
> P.S. I live in a house that has rich kids in it though. But dealing with that is another whole thread.

Just because you apparently managed a success story doesn't mean everyone can, and it doesn't mean that everyone should have to.
EDIT: What the hell, I might as well expand.
Let me put it like this - why have you escaped the poverty trap, when so many others are unable to?
Last edited by Gnosticism Is A Hoot on Sat Jun 26, 2010 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The soul is the prison of the body.
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:08 pm

Crissa, fuck you for being an idiot who can't tell the difference between exchange rate and purchasing power. Again, argue with the facts all you want, but when you factor in purchasing power America's per-capita ranking actually goes up, not down, meaning that your costs of living are actually fucking lower than a lot of other developed countries.
Also, if you wanna deny that jobs exists in places like say, Seattle, where costs of living are lower because property costs aren't as stupid as California, then go ahead and deny it because you're a fucking retard.
Seriously, it's not worth answering any of your shit.
Last edited by Zinegata on Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Clutch9800
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Post by Clutch9800 » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:19 pm

> Seriously, it's not worth answering any of your shit

Yet you did.

> Let me put it like this - why have you escaped the poverty trap, when so many others are unable to?

I don't know. Luck? Fate? I'm usually the smartest man in the room? It wasn't from a name, I'm a Taylor.
Clutch
P.S. It might have been hubris. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. (God help the man that actually grasps it). Sooner or later I'll have to die and all.
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:23 pm

> Clutch9800 wrote:Yet you did.

Of course. If you throw shit, expect it right back .
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:58 pm

> Clutch9800 wrote: I grew up as poor as dirt. My dad was a Fireman. He worked his ass off for ingrates at wages that kept us in apartments until I was 15.

Firemen make more money in a month than I see in a year. My best year I made considerably less than what a rookie professional firefighter makes.
One thing that Americans all think: That they're poor and everyone that makes more than them is rich. I make 8-10k a year, and I'm still richer than all but 2 of my friends. And I may not have seen the types of starvation found in developing nations, but I have had times where I was only able to afford food 3-4 times a week. And I've never owned a $100 pair of shoes in my life, that's like a month's worth of food right there.
And I doubt things will ever get better. I'm not smart enough for college, and my professional licensing means nothing because once they find out I've been to college I'm unhirable in my previous profession (Regardless that I went in my late 20's and worked 2 jobs to be at college, I'm categorized as "just a spoiled college brat" by everyone in the area).
Back about 10-15 years ago, you could always hustle a few bucks. Show up at sporting events and ask if they're hiring vendors, ask farmers if they have any work for you, and so forth. I was making 100-500 a week during the summer like that when I was 14. Now, all the big dogs have figured out the little dogs are becoming prosperous and there is nothing that the people in charge hate more than seeing poor people becoming prosperous, so now that's all changed. Vendors make minimum wage now and are usually union these days. Farms usually hire family friends or migrants these days, so you can't throw haybales around anymore unless you know farmers or you're hispanic.
Although most of you have probably never seen this side of life (and probably never will), the big businesses are crowding out even the lowest of the low because they need all the money.
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:53 pm

> Zinegata wrote:Also, if you wanna deny that jobs exists in places like say, Seattle, where costs of living are lower because property costs aren't as stupid as California, then go ahead and deny it because you're a fucking retard.

While I know this index is full of shit - grocery items are cheaper in California than Washington, because less of it needs to be imported; Seattle isn't a cheap place to live. But Seattle is still higher than most of the nation, and not much higher than San jose (though strangely, this list shows San Jose as expensive. It's dumb. It's not. When I can buy greens or canned food for a tenth of the price than in Seattle and rent is only double and minimum wage is double... Also their numbers for the population in San Jose are like fifteen years out of date.)
In other words, you're an idiot. Places aren't expensive to live for no reason. People don't move from Oklahoma or Missouri because they're hotbeds of economic activity. And they do move to places like California because they are.
You're an idiot because you said exchange rates and purchasing power. Which denote the ability to take your money from one place and buy things. It doesn't matter that I wear $200 shoes - those shoes wouldn't cost $100 in Indonesia. They also last multiple times longer than $20 shoes, so much longer that they're effectively cheaper.
Here's a better comparison, more up to date info. Grab Bakersfield, compare to San Francisco. Now go to wikipedia and compare the average income of those two cities.
Places aren't just 'expensive'. They're 'expensive' because people want to live there. The number one reason people want to live somewhere is because they get paid more there. The number of $100K jobs per capita in the Bay Area is just plain higher than Seattle or Oklahoma City.
So if you move away from the jobs... You're stuck with lesser jobs. And of course, subsistence living is highly frowned upon in this country.
-Crissa
Last edited by Crissa on Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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