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Maj
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### What the hell is it...

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Post by Maj » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:42 am

About people who believe that you should only have sex if you're capable of taking care of a child?
I have no idea where this idea started, and I have no idea how it manages to gain so much traction. But the thought is absolutely appalling to me. In my mind, not only does it amount to eugenics, but it's torture.
If you can't afford a kid, you can't have sex. If you have some sort of personality disorder that makes parenting difficult, you can't have sex. And it doesn't even matter if you're married - don't want or can't "handle" a child? No sex. What the fucking fuck?
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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momothefiddler
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Post by momothefiddler » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:57 am

As a child of someone who definitely wasn't equipped to raise kids, I absolutely support the idea of not having kids if you're not able to take care of them, because creating a person in order to not take care of them is... shitty, to say the least.
But equating having sex with having children is just idiotic and has been for millenia and I agree that the idea that people shouldn't have sex if they can't/shouldn't have kids is a big problem.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:59 am

Yeah, it's one thing to say "don't have children if you can't look after them".
But the bit where sex = babies needs to be buried with all the other bullshit we left behind hundreds of years ago. Birth control is what sets humans apart from animals, let it be used.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Sam
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Post by Sam » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:00 am

It turns out that people have all kinds of crazy opinions that just happen to all be aimed, by sheerest coincidence, at controlling women's sex lives. Weird but true.
Also, people will flip the fuck out when confronted with the idea of people with physical or mental disabilities having sex (or worse, having a sexual relationship).
Last edited by Sam on Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Laertes
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Post by Laertes » Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:11 am

It's simple misogyny. The thought that women might be able to view sex as merely a consequence-free recreational activity, the way men do, is unacceptable to people who believe that women shouldn't have nice things.
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Kaelik
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### Re: What the hell is it...

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Post by Kaelik » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:01 am

> Maj wrote:About people who believe that you should only have sex if you're capable of taking care of a child?
> I have no idea where this idea started, and I have no idea how it manages to gain so much traction. But the thought is absolutely appalling to me. In my mind, not only does it amount to eugenics, but it's torture.
> If you can't afford a kid, you can't have sex. If you have some sort of personality disorder that makes parenting difficult, you can't have sex. And it doesn't even matter if you're married - don't want or can't "handle" a child? No sex. What the fucking fuck?

It comes from pre industrial agrarian society where you produced all the babies because you needed them because most of them died, and you needed the rest to help with the farm. That was ingrained in religious beliefs for some reason, because religions are for social engineering or whatever...
For a brief period people realized that the endless kid production was not necessary at this point and better family structures existed in letting people have kids when they want, and then the religious backlash came and suddenly tons of people are just so sure that producing kids literally as fast as you can regardless of your financial situation is religiously mandated.
Because that is why you shouldn't attempt to force social engineering preferences into religion and or morality, because it ends up fucking you later when children don't actually help you produce more food.
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:39 am

> Laertes wrote:It's simple misogyny. The thought that women might be able to view sex as merely a consequence-free recreational activity, the way men do, is unacceptable to people who believe that women shouldn't have nice things.

There's also an aspect of classism involved as well, the idea that poor people shouldn't be allowed to enjoy things.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:32 am

Isn't that what blowjobx, handjobs and anal are there for?
Or Boobjobs? Or whatever? Sex has so many variations, only one of which produces offspring.
And then there's still contraception and abortion, if you're not a religious nutjob about that kind of stuff.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Laertes
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Post by Laertes » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:40 am

> And then there's still contraception and abortion, if you're not a religious nutjob about that kind of stuff.

Conveniently, those are the things that religious people are the most nutjobbish about.

> There's also an aspect of classism involved as well, the idea that poor people shouldn't be allowed to enjoy things.

I thought about that but I don't think it's entirely true: as a society, we let poor men get away with being deadbeat fathers but come down heavily on the mother. If it were a predominantly classist thing, then we'd see shotgun marriages be far more common than they are.
This is actually a pretty good example of intersectionality: being poor means you get it worse, and being female means you get it worse, but at the intersection of the two you get interesting results that reveal a lot about our society.
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Blade
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Post by Blade » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:40 am

Anal sex can lead to pregnancy. It's rare, but it happens.
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:43 am

@Laertes
Then maybe they should not have sex unless they want children and stay out of other peoples bedrooms.
@Blade
Wait. What.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Laertes
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Post by Laertes » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:47 am

> Anal sex can lead to pregnancy. It's rare, but it happens.

To quote a German friend of mine, that's how Wurtemburg came to be.

> Then maybe they should not have sex unless they want children and stay out of other peoples bedrooms.

Sadly, given the existence of movements like The Joshua Generation and Quiverfull, religious people being allowed to have children is scarcely a comforting thing.
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:51 am

@LAertes:
Was that Norman?

> Not born. SHIT into existence

Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:52 am

> Stahlseele wrote:@Laertes
> Then maybe they should not ever speak to other people or interact with other humans

I fixed it for you.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Occluded Sun
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### Re: What the hell is it...

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Post by Occluded Sun » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:39 pm

> Maj wrote:I have no idea where this idea started, and I have no idea how it manages to gain so much traction. But the thought is absolutely appalling to me. In my mind, not only does it amount to eugenics, but it's torture.

I love that you're using the word 'eugenics' as a synonym for 'unbelievable evil'.
What's wrong with eugenics, again?
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:43 pm

Probably the same thing as with euthanasia.
Strong association with the 3rd Reich and it's attempts to create a better, purer, more arian race.
It dehumanizes more than anything else and basically devalues the complete concept of familial connections.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Maj
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Post by Maj » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:50 pm

The fuck? I'm equating the inability to have sex with my husband with unbelievable evil.
And yes, Stahlseele, there are other types of sex, but I really don't find that limiting myself to those other types is particularly fulfilling. Sometimes, the original is best.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Laertes
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Post by Laertes » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:50 pm

Eugenics denies human morality and human social activity. To suggest that it is possible to breed a better humanity is to say that nothing one chooses to do in one's life is as significant as the genes with which one is born, which manages the unusual feat of being both absurd, reductionist and provably false.
Last edited by Laertes on Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:52 pm

So I suppose we should also dispose of Volkswagon Beetles and nationalized health care. Brilliant.
Here's a question for Maj: do you think people are entitled to have children that they can't take care of?
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:56 pm

> Laertes wrote:Eugenics denies human morality and human social activity. To suggest that it is possible to breed a better humanity is to say that nothing one chooses to do in one's life is as significant as the genes with which one is born, which manages the unusual feat of being both absurd, reductionist and provably false.

It's none of those things.
"The genes with which one is born" are what, more than any other factor, determine what sorts of choices are available to you and how you will prefer to choose. The primary difference between a human being and a chimp is genes. People tried raising chimp babies as they would human infants, and it doesn't work out because of their inborn differences.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:02 pm

America had a eugenics program. We had thousands of people sterilized against their will. It was not a shining moment...
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:10 pm

@Occluded Sun:
I am right there with you on the part of disposing of all VW Beetle Cars.
Not ALL things done by Hitler are universally seen as bad things, to be sure.
The Beetle was actually according to some sources a stolen project not a genuine german developement.
Autobahn? Done by Hitler. The Olympic Fire run? Done by Hitler.
First Jet-Engine and Rocketry, done by Hitler.
Last edited by Stahlseele on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:11 pm

What do you mean, 'had'? We still do - why do you think it's illegal in many places for cousins to marry?
And it's not official governmental policy, federal, state, or local - but why do you think the number of Down's syndrome births keeps going down even though people are having pregnancies later and later in life?
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:14 pm

Because that stuff is icky to most people.
Eugneics would probably be exactly the opposite.
Mixing closely related genes, getting rid of defective offpsring and keeping the rest.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Maj
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Post by Maj » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:31 pm

> Here's a question for Maj: do you think people are entitled to have children that they can't take care of?

Having a child isn't a matter of entitlement. It's a matter of biology. And I think that children are entitled to help, should their parents have difficulties. Further, I think that women are entitled to freedom from children, so that if they want to have sex, they can.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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