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## A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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User3
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### A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Wed May 26, 2004 12:15 am

As a better mechanic for Polymorph, Alter Self, Wildshape, etc, and Shapechange, I was thinking this:
1. Take the monster you want to turn into. Use all of those stats and abilities, and none of yours. For all intents and purposes, you are playing that monster as written in the MM(including skills and feats), and not your character. For monsters with spellcasting, you must use the suggested spells for spellcasting, or pick from the PHB only if none are given. While changed, you don't have your class skills, feats, abilities, or stats based on HD.
You can't choose to change into monsters with class levels.
2. When you change back, take the current HP of your character and the current HP of the monster. Whichever is lower is your new HP. Status effects cross over. All organs, even seperated ones, turn back when you do.
3. Base the "how big I can get" on monster CR.
4. Allow templated versions of yourself, or a monster, at an exchange rate 1 negative level per CR. Templated monsters or creatures must apply the template to the new form chosen, and can do so even if the template normally cannot be applied to that creature(Vampires can and must become Vampric Wolves, even though wolves are Animal Type.)
5. Magical equipment does not function when Polymorphed.
6. Shapechanged creatures cannot Spawn, create, summon, or become new creatures(other than returning to their normal form).
7. Alter Self gives forms of the same Type, max CR 2.
8. Polymorph has all forms max CR = (half of level).
9. Shapechange is CR = level, or CR= (half of level) and the ability to change at will as a Free action once per round.
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Username17
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by Username17 » Wed May 26, 2004 1:56 am

No.
This is just as complicated as anything ever. It will continue to be complicated and abusable as long as it is based on monster listings in any way shape or form. There is no way to make this work.
There are hundreds of monsters per book, there are over a dozen compendiums of monsters. Many monsters have a wide variety of instantaneous abilities which are supposedly balanced by disadvantages they are confronted with at other times of their lives - disadvantages which will never ever come up if you are simply popping these monsters out when you need them.
Many creatures have a limited mobility or duration on their ass whupping, which is a major limiting factor on the creature, but absolutely meaningless when you can turn into the creature whenever you want.
Consider the Oread. It has Earthquake up its ass, and it can teleport around. It also can't stray from the geographical formation it's standing on. The total package is balanced as a CR 7 - but if you just pop into one whenever you want to drop a castle wall - it's not.
And so on and so forth for all the creatures. There are thousands of creatures, and if you get to use their abilities when you want without having to deal with their disadvantages for the rest of your life game balance is impossible.
Basing polymorph on monster entries is completely unsalvagable. Take a look at Skip Williams explaining (poorly) how some of the abilities possessed by monsters get transfered with a Polymorph effect. Not only does that page scroll on longer than the sum total of all rage and disguise effects in the game - it also is incomplete, confusing, and horribly broken.
Basing transformations on monster entries does not spark creativity, it makes things more broken and complicated - that's not the same thing. You can't fix this, thousands of smart people have been trying for decades and a satisfactory answer has never ever been had in this game system or any other under any circumstances ever. And won't be, because it can't be.
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MrWaeseL
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by MrWaeseL » Wed May 26, 2004 8:18 am

It seems that choosing abilities from a list is the best solution in the end, and I'm more than willing to boot in some of the power of the spell for that.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Wed May 26, 2004 9:14 am

I like Frank's list idea because not only would allow you to turn into an Ogre, it'll also allow you to turn into yourself plus wings, or a burly, demonic version of yourself, which has as much precedent withing the genre as Dragon-Shaping, if not more.
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Wed May 26, 2004 3:43 pm

I forgot to add the part where you have a Focus component(piece of the monster).
On reflection, I also think that it should not be dismissable. Choose a suck monster, and you're stuck with it until your duration goes away.
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Username17
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by Username17 » Wed May 26, 2004 4:35 pm

> I forgot to add the part where you have a Focus component(piece of the monster).

You never answered my original complaint with this.
By "balancing" the spell by allowing the DM to self-censor the monsters which appear in the game, you:
1> remove countless monsters from the game. This is a larger removal from the game than simply removing polymorph altogether, and thus your cure is worse than the disease from the perspective of limiting options.
2> don't even balance the game. For this to be balanced, the DM would have to preciently know in advance what every single creature could be used for in the context of this one spell under all circumstances in the future, and noone does.
Firstly, you are forcing the DM to not use any monster which is potentially unbalanced if the players are allowed to transiently use their abilities when they would be unbalanced to be used (which is a lot of basically balanced monsters, actually), and then as soon as the DM makes even one mistake the game is broken anyway.
So it limits the game more than not having the spell in it does, and it's going to break the game anyway. You can't win.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by RandomCasualty » Wed May 26, 2004 6:18 pm

There's no way to write a spell that covers every contingency when dealing with creatures from the monster manual. You must either choose to deal with only a specific creature list, or you have to play the spell as essentially pure guidlines. Where you aren't quite sure what any form is going to give you until you actually do it and then the DM actively decides what is balanced for each form. Essentially everytime you use this spell in a different way, it's a new rule 0.
But trying to create some catch all system for polymorphing in which you use the monster manual is futile. Monsters are balanced off a different standard than PCs. We don't expect dire bears to be wearing wild armor, casting spells, and using magical items. We also expect them to have animal intelligence. Thus the CR is much lower than it normally should be based on their combat ability.
There is no way to balance that except on a case by case basis, and this absolutely requires the DM every single time. Unless you want to add for each monster entry what happens when you polymorph into it, along with a polymorph difficulty rating, you cannot make it balanced without constant ad hoc DM rulings.
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:28 pm

I don't see how requiring a Focus component "removes monsters from the game."
All monsters are, by their very nature, unbalanced. They are overspecialized, glass jawed, and otherwise broken when in their element and sucktastic when outside of it.
DMs always make a choice when they put a monster into their campaign. We all know that a Half Dragon Kobolds are not CR 2 for a Level 1 party. Those guys are stone cold killers for a party like that.
But, by forcing PC to use a focus component, you do force people to basically only pick the better balanced monsters. With the CR limts I've imposed, only very rarely will someone get into a sitation where they choose a monster too good for a situation. And there is a limit to the number of Focuses you can carry. Rather than shopping for power, you are planning for it. And that's the wizard's thing.
Its like having a stealth scene where the rogue is kicking ass and everyone else blows. Is the rogue "broken." No, he's doing his thing.
If your uber-save villain got schooled by a Solid Fog, would you cry? No, the player thought of something good. Why punish them?
With your example and my rules, I don't see a problem: a 14th level wizard casts a 4th level spell, and combined with the fact that he has killed an Oread in a previous adventure, he gets to cast Earthquake and gets rooted in place for 1 min a level. Sounds fine to me.
(Maybe another rule could be that the Focus is consumed after use, and that only one Focus can be harvested per monster. )
Your system of "Polymorph is a plus stats/abilities cost matrix" is flavorless, doesn't do what we want it to do(give us wierd monster abilties), would be overly complex if it was ever attempted or actually written, removes all the monsters from play by PCs, and in its very conception has just as much potential for abuse.
At least my system would be fun, and easy. A little DM oversight in the process is not necesarily a bad thing. That is how the game is run.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by RandomCasualty » Wed May 26, 2004 6:47 pm

> Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1085596107[/unixtime]]I don't see how requiring a Focus component "removes monsters from the game."

Because the focus component is a control to prevent PCs from turning into broken monsters. So to prevent that you never allow them to acquire the component. To do that, you must have them never encounter the monster, because they get the component from the monster. So in effect you've removed monsters from the game, because you can't use them without breaking the game.

> Your system of "Polymorph is a plus stats/abilities cost matrix" is flavorless, doesn't do what we want it to do(give us wierd monster abilties), would be overly complex if it was ever attempted or actually written, removes all the monsters from play by PCs, and in its very conception has just as much potential for abuse.

Weird mosnter abilities are for the most part the broken stuff you don't want PCs getting their hands on. You don't want PCs turning into efreeti and granting wishes, You don't want them turning into pheonix's and getting the special abilities.

> At least my system would be fun, and easy. A little DM oversight in the process is not necesarily a bad thing. That is how the game is run.

But if you're going to use DM oversight, you might as well make it entirely DM oversight. Just give guidelines as to what creatures you can become each level and rely on the DM to balance out anything new.
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Wed May 26, 2004 6:58 pm

Efreeti and Phoenix are broken with or without Polymorph. They shouldn't be in the game.
Some examples: With T. Ressurection, you can kill one Phoenix a thousand times and make an army of light.
Efreeti can be Planar Bound. Hell, even if you travelled to the planof fire, found one, and beat him unconcious and Charmed him, he'd still be far, far too good for his CR(or any CR).
Don't judge the system by the exceptions, but by the rules. I'll bet that there are like 7 monsters who should leave the game, period.
And we'd all be better off for it.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by RandomCasualty » Wed May 26, 2004 7:08 pm

There are plenty of monsters and templates you don't want PCs taking. For instance you certainly don't want fighters polymorphed into iron golems. You don't want wizards polymorphed into spellweavers or chokers, and there's lots more monsters, though I can't think of too many offhand, but I'm sure Frank can.
Any time you're handing out an ability you have to ask yourself if you'd allow that ability to be handed out by a 4th level spell. Seriously, polymorph is just a 4th level spell. If you wouldn't level a 4th level buff do something like that without changing your form, then you shouldn't allow polymorph to do it either.
People always want to make all these exceptions regarding polymorph, but you have to remember the bottom line. Polymorph is a 4th level spell, that's it. And it's a very versatile 4th level spell, meaning it has to be weaker than a specialized spell for its level.
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Wed May 26, 2004 7:51 pm

OK, read the first post. Read it completely.
Now, after having done that, you've see that with my version of Polymorph, you can't use your old class abilities while Polymorphed. Go ahead and become a choker. You don't keep anything from your old character. The only things that transfers are status effects, and HP damage that transfers when you become a real boy. So a Sickened wizard can become a sickened choker. Weeee!
And you are limited to a CR of half your level with Polymorph.
For a 4th level spell, I think thats OK. The weaknesses gained outnumber the abilities. Fighters are not going to want to become anything.
Maybe I was too generous to grant spellcasting. Dunno. But becoming a spell weaver and not having any spells sucks pretty bad.
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Username17
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by Username17 » Wed May 26, 2004 8:08 pm

> For a 4th level spell, I think thats OK.

Then you are thinking unclearly.
Even a Lantern Archon can teleport itself anywhere in the world. Consider the ramifications of allowing people to turn into one, which by your rubric would be available with alter self.
Non-combat spellcasting becomes a joke when you have a replacement polymorph.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Wed May 26, 2004 8:09 pm

Basing your polymorph around CR does nothing to improve balance at all. First off, it assumes that the CRs are balanced in the first place. They're not, and the designers don't really even pretend they are. You already know that they purpously gave dragons a lower CR than they deserve because they wanted Dragons to be the toughest monsters at any given level, and you want players to have access to that? Secondly, CR is a highly imperfect system that relies heavily on situation. A little thing like tactics or proper equipment can change a monsters CR. A party with poor ranged options for one reason or another is going to get hosed by an on-level flying encounter.
So, are you prepared to tell the wizard that he cannot assume the same form he assumed last combat because that form's CR would be higher in this situation?
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Wed May 26, 2004 8:48 pm

If the party can and does kill a lantern archon to get the Focus component, then sure, let them have it. They went on a quest for a magic item, and they got it. Good for them. They're adventurers. Evil-aligned adventurers.
---------------
Dragons make crappy adventurers. Especially the ones at a CR of half your level.
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Wed May 26, 2004 11:25 pm

Ok, to recap, with minor additions/changes:
K's Polymorph rules:
1. Bigness.
Alter Self=Same Type, CR 2
Polymorph=CR of half of character level
Shapechange=CR of half level, change a bunch
2. Focus
2.1 You must have a Focus made from the monster you want to turn into. Each killed monster provides one Focus. Make an Alchemy check(15) to harvest a Focus. Failed check means that the Focus was ruined.
3. What happens(I'm a monster).
3.1 If you want to turn into a monster, then look at the listed CR of the monster and if meet rule 1 and rule 2, then pick up the monster description.
3.2 Play that monster, in all ways(stats, skills, feats, spells, HPs, etc).
3.3 If your old character had a status effect affecting him, so does your monster.
3.4 When the duration runs out, look at your monster HPs. If they are lower than the HP on your character sheet, then take your current monster HPs and replace your charecter current HP. Transfer over status effects.
3.5 If you had a template before, you must apply it to any monster you turn into, even if that normally does not work. Follow rule 4.
4. What happens(I want a template).
4.1 Take your character/monster, and if you meet rule 1 and 2, then apply the template. Pay a cost of one negative level per template CR. Otherwise, follow the rules 3.1 to 3.5
Special rules:
*While Polymorphed, you cannot Spawn, summon, create, or become a new creature.
*Polymorph spells are not dismissable.
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Wed May 26, 2004 11:30 pm

I forgot this one:
Special rule:
*Polymorphed magical ojects don't work.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Wed May 26, 2004 11:39 pm

To recap:

> Desdan_Mervolam at [unixtime wrote:1085602142[/unixtime]]Basing your polymorph around CR does nothing to improve balance at all. First off, it assumes that the CRs are balanced in the first place. They're not, and the designers don't really even pretend they are. You already know that they purpously gave dragons a lower CR than they deserve because they wanted Dragons to be the toughest monsters at any given level, and you want players to have access to that? Secondly, CR is a highly imperfect system that relies heavily on situation. A little thing like tactics or proper equipment can change a monsters CR. A party with poor ranged options for one reason or another is going to get hosed by an on-level flying encounter.
> So, are you prepared to tell the wizard that he cannot assume the same form he assumed last combat because that form's CR would be higher in this situation?
> -Desdan

CR is not a viable yardstick to measure monster power.
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Thu May 27, 2004 3:12 pm

There is no reliable and exact yardstick for power at all. All we have are rough approximations. A two handed fighter without his greatsword is a useless meat shield. Most wizards are useless in darkness. What's your point?
Frankly, at a CR of half your level, you are not going to get something too powerful. If you can give me five examples, I'll listen. Otherwise, you don't have an argument.
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Username17
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by Username17 » Thu May 27, 2004 4:55 pm

> There is no reliable and exact yardstick for power at all. All we have are rough approximations.

And having made that admission, you still want to set Polymorph power to creature write ups? What the hell for?
---
Note: your write-up is completely useless except for abuse. Any particular creature you would transform into for the purposes of boxing, boxes at a level roughly half your own. That means that at level 8 you transform into something which is 4 levels worse as a boxer than your party fighter (8th level Warrior character vs. Minotaur, for example) - which means that you are so far down the power curve that you may as well not show up at all.
The only thing it's for is transforming into monsters who have some sort of trick up their sleave that is grossly outside their level spectrum because it doesn't matter because they are otherwise limited monsters. So you could become a Lantern Archon at level 3 and teleport across the world. Which is like waiting another 6 levels to get teleport except that you are doing it 6 levels early and it isn't a whole lot of good for ambushes (unless you are ambushing someone without ranged spells, because Lantern Archons also come with a ranged attack and are immune to anything else).
So your write up is completely pointless unless you find super duper broken monsters that will allow you to cast spells outside the level structure - in which case you'll cast spells outside the level structure.
Nymph Form and Lantern Archon Form = Broken. Minotaur Form = Suck. Your "system" is laughable. You can't make it work this way. People smarter than you have been trying for thirty years in every fantasy game ever made and not a few futuristic ones, and it has always failed because it can't work!
It's like aging as a cost, it might sound cool, but it can't work in a game. The mechanics simply cannot produce the kind of results in an actual game that you are looking for.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by RandomCasualty » Thu May 27, 2004 10:51 pm

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1085676920[/unixtime]]
> It's like aging as a cost, it might sound cool, but it can't work in a game. The mechanics simply cannot produce the kind of results in an actual game that you are looking for.

I always thought aging as a cost for spells like resurrection was a good idea. Not because it prevented PCs from doing these things, but because it prevented NPCs from using it haphazardly, and helped to get away from the "we'll just bring him back to the temple and get him raised" syndrome.
It's perfectly justifiable for a cleric to say "hell no" when its costing him one or more years of his life.
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Thu May 27, 2004 11:12 pm

When did we start thinking that Wizards should be better or as good as fighters with a fourth level spell? Aren't you the advocate that fighters are underpowered?
---------------
A Focus component is no worse than saying that magic items exist in your world. Sometimes, players get magic items you don't want them to have. As a DM, you deal with it. Your going to have to give me my five examples of uber-brokeness with my system before making blanket statements. Otherwise, it just sounds like sour grapes.
--------------
Yes, good aligned creatures are under CRed. So evil bastards who kill them get less XP. And evil bastards carrying around chunks of good aligned creatures can turn into them. How is this different than some guy getting a magic item that is better than his level? An in-story advantage is just that: part of the story. If PCs want to run around killing good creatures to turn into them, then they are playing evil adventurers. Sounds like its time for some heroes to pay them a visit.
----------------------------
So a 14th level wizard can turn into a 7th level druid by becoming a Nymph. So? Becoming a Nymph in a CR 14 encounter doesn't sound like a brilliant idea.
Although, I may want to add another rule that says you can't cast spells with a casting time longer than one action, spells with an XP cost, or spells with permanent durations. That should cut down on spellcaster abuses.
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Username17
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by Username17 » Thu May 27, 2004 11:15 pm

Look Keith, why don't you just drop Polymorph all together and get down to what you really want:
Blue Mage as a core class.
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User3
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by User3 » Thu May 27, 2004 11:27 pm

To be honest, I don't really like monster abilities. Getting them as a Blue Mage as spells doesn't get me all hot.
What I want is the ability to turn into assorted weird stuff some of the time, if thats my character concept. i also want to have a single monster form thats good, if that's my concept.
Turning into a Sprite to get that 8th level Dancing spell is really not on my mind. I don't want to break the system. I want to make it better flavored and less abusable, and I'm using all the stories I know of about shapeshifting to do that.
I also don't use anime as any kind of model of balanced storytelling. Every single thing in anime is broken, from a rules standpoint, as every character is Epic.
----------------
Addendum: the monster as PC races rules allow quite a few monsters be used as Templates. I'd allow that under my rules, with the negative levels equalling the ECL. Wanna be a Minotaur, go the template route of just getting bigger, or go the whole replacement route.
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Username17
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### Re: A kinder, gentler Polymorph.

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Post by Username17 » Thu May 27, 2004 11:34 pm

> To be honest, I don't really like monster abilities.

Then stop trying to write rules that give you monster abilities. Problem solved.
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