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## (Shadowrun) Perfect Crime Matrix Rules [WIP]

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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:07 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:Because let's be honest: I threw down this gauntlet by explaining the paradox in 2007, and no one has been able to solve this particular catch 22. It's not solvable. This entire line of design thought is a dead end because it can't fucking work. The authors of SR5 set out to "prove Frank wrong" by making a carrot system that worked... and they failed. Just like every single other person has failed, and will continue to fail, because it's ridiculously absurdly difficult.
> -Username17

I'm going to propose two more options:

1. Free-action hacking, where you can hack and shoot.
2. Padded sumo, where the fight is so long you can spend some turns durdling with things that don't mission-killing your opponents

Both assume a model where hacked cyberware is still better, or at the very least runner-grade cyberware is not worse, than no cyberware.
What are the flaws with the former? (I'm certain people will just plain hate the latter, so I'm just listing it for completeness)
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Lokathor
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Post by Lokathor » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:08 am

> Cyberzombie wrote:Why not just say a hacker can remotely access any device through the same kind of technical sorcery that would otherwise let him hack a brain? I mean if you're okay with someone remotely hacking a brain, which doesn't have wireless, why can't you just remotely hack a cyberarm that has the wireless turned off? Doesn't that fix the problem?

You mean remote access the device even with the wifi off? Technomancers can do that, actually. Hackers need to establish a Connection (which requires Handshake range, even if you use a Backdoor program) before using Crash (a program) to deal Icon damage. Technomancers can just use the Decompiling skill's "Rend Icon" action against any electronic device within their Signal range to deal Icon damage to it (though this automatically opens a Connection in the process). Technomancers can establish a Connection to a device even without Handshake range, they can even establish a Connection to a fiber optic cable. The game survives. It would be a little more weird if all hackers had the added bonuses of being a Technomancer (without the drawbacks), but not setting destroying.
However, if that were the case, as before, people would just stop using cyberware (switching to bioware for any critical bonuses), and they'd stop using all other computerized devices whenever possible. They'd have equipment that's more akin to modern, real-world equipment... but real world stuff is still pretty damn good at killing your enemies. Also you'd still be able to use any future tech that's simply based on advanced materials and miniaturization without being computerized (such as high grade armor, miniaturized breathing tanks, flare compensating goggles, etc). That's pretty effective, probably effective enough for most situations.
The reason that people don't do that in EotM is because Technomancers are super rare, so it's not worth giving up the bonuses.
Last edited by Lokathor on Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sashi
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Post by Sashi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:17 am

Padded Sumo does the opposite of what you're suggesting it does. In Padded Sumo you have to stand there and shoot every round because if you fall even the littlest bit behind on damage output you've lost and can never make it up.
I think what would actually make hackers viable is a version of Rocket Launcher Tag that involves mostly low-risk snap shots and covering fire while trying to get the bonuses/penalties enough in your favor that the cyber samurai can survive being out in the open long enough to paste a dude.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:45 am

> Sashi wrote:Padded Sumo does the opposite of what you're suggesting it does. In Padded Sumo you have to stand there and shoot every round because if you fall even the littlest bit behind on damage output you've lost and can never make it up.
> I think what would actually make hackers viable is a version of Rocket Launcher Tag that involves mostly low-risk snap shots and covering fire while trying to get the bonuses/penalties enough in your favor that the cyber samurai can survive being out in the open long enough to paste a dude.

Well, regardless of whether it works, I rejected it for other reasons, but I sort of see what you're saying.
On the other hand, if you expect to make, say, 10 attacks, skipping one attack to take an action that makes the rest of your attack actions 11.11...% more effective and then attacking 9 times is mathematically equivalent. Better, if it also makes your buddies' attack actions 11% more viable.
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TheNotoriousAMP
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Post by TheNotoriousAMP » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:19 am

On the matter of Padded Sumo and the like. What could be a very fluff fitting way to do combat is to do sort of a running clash. What I mean is that having a set piece encounter with a group of guards is sort of DnD and not very heist/cyberpunk-ey. What would be better would be that if running, you sort of have a series of clashes with the same group of guards. So instead of fighting 5 rounds, maybe you go 1 and you're off, 2 and you're off, ect. That way the advantage of surprise and initiative is fluid and you can make those incremental buffs worth it. It becomes more a game of wearing down a group of enemies, cracking their cyber shit, hacking their tac net and then finishing them off (or just losing them after covering fire), making rocket tag and padded sumo less viable in the long term. It also allows groups who want less combat more lee way in planning and executing, so perhaps they eliminate guards off table. That way, the GM and his posse can decide how much or little combat they want, while not chucking the combat system and elimination of enemies out of the game.
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Cyberzombie
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Post by Cyberzombie » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:56 pm

> Lokathor wrote: You mean remote access the device even with the wifi off?

Yup.

> However, if that were the case, as before, people would just stop using cyberware (switching to bioware for any critical bonuses), and they'd stop using all other computerized devices whenever possible.

I highly doubt it. Cost is always the big limiter and bioware is expensive. It's cheaper just to buy a good security system for your wired reflexes rather than upgrade everything to bioware equivalent. And sure you can spend your budget on inferior bioware, but then you're going to lose to people running cheaper and more effective cyberware. So you insulate against matrix attacks, but lose against street samurai. Which is fine, and an argument could be made to go either way with security, but it's far from a no brainer.
The PAN then turns into a virus scanner model. Your commlink is linked to your cyberarm because it's constantly helping it scan for intrusions, because the commlink has a better processor/software in it than your cyberarm does. And naturally spiders can also help monitor for intrusions as well.
Since you're using computers for data storage, a corporation is going to have an IT department in Shadowrun, you might as well get those guys involved with protecting your security guards in the event of hacking attacks.
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Post by Username17 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:07 pm

> Cyberzombie wrote:

> > Lokathor wrote: You mean remote access the device even with the wifi off?

> Yup.

And that's different from brainhacking... how? Brains are devices. Brains are actually devices that send and receive wirelessly all the time, although it's low power and generally doesn't go very far.
In what possible universe would you decide that sending and receiving delta waves from someone's brain without their consent was "unreasonable" while sending and receiving radio waves from a computer in a metal fucking box with the antenna disconnected was totally kosher? You actually can't turn the transmitting of your brain off, that's literally something you can't do. But turning the wireless off on a frickin gun is so easy that almost no guns in the world today can be wirelessly interacted with in any fashion. What the fuck is wrong with you?
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Cyberzombie
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Post by Cyberzombie » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:38 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote: In what possible universe would you decide that sending and receiving delta waves from someone's brain without their consent was "unreasonable" while sending and receiving radio waves from a computer in a metal fucking box with the antenna disconnected was totally kosher?

It's not unreasonable because of psuedoscience, it's unreasonable because it doesn't feel like a hacker anymore. Hackers interact with technology, that's their entire concept. If you're shutting down people's brains instead of their cyberlimbs, it's not fitting the flavor of a cyberpunk hacker type. It feels like a reflavored mage and is just unsatisfying to me.
The problem of people being able to turn off the wireless to prevent hacking is a real one. If people turning off the wireless is a big deal, then you simply make technology still vulnerable with the wireless turned off. I don't think you need to go super extreme in changing the hacker's role to some psi-blast master because of it.
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Post by Sashi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:46 pm

> RadiantPhoenix wrote:

> > Sashi wrote:Padded Sumo does the opposite of what you're suggesting it does. In Padded Sumo you have to stand there and shoot every round because if you fall even the littlest bit behind on damage output you've lost and can never make it up.
> > I think what would actually make hackers viable is a version of Rocket Launcher Tag that involves mostly low-risk snap shots and covering fire while trying to get the bonuses/penalties enough in your favor that the cyber samurai can survive being out in the open long enough to paste a dude.

> Well, regardless of whether it works, I rejected it for other reasons, but I sort of see what you're saying.
> On the other hand, if you expect to make, say, 10 attacks, skipping one attack to take an action that makes the rest of your attack actions 11.11...% more effective and then attacking 9 times is mathematically equivalent. Better, if it also makes your buddies' attack actions 11% more viable.

I get what you're saying, I think we are both thinking about the same course of events when the Decker is participating (everyone plinks around until the Decker unlocks some big attacks), I'd just prefer that it doesn't turn into a slap fight when the decker isn't there.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:56 pm

As I said, I dismissed the padded sumo option because people will hate it.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:00 pm

It kills me that people repeatedly harp on an invasive, inescapable technology not being cyberpunk.
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TheNotoriousAMP
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Post by TheNotoriousAMP » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:33 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:And that's different from brainhacking... how? Brains are devices. Brains are actually devices that send and receive wirelessly all the time, although it's low power and generally doesn't go very far.
> In what possible universe would you decide that sending and receiving delta waves from someone's brain without their consent was "unreasonable" while sending and receiving radio waves from a computer in a metal fucking box with the antenna disconnected was totally kosher? You actually can't turn the transmitting of your brain off, that's literally something you can't do. But turning the wireless off on a frickin gun is so easy that almost no guns in the world today can be wirelessly interacted with in any fashion. Something something cursing at others and the like.
> -Username17

Okay, so technically one way brain to device communication is already quite plausible. The iBrain currently being tested and developed for Stephen Hawking by Neurovigil is capable of potentially turning the brain's thoughtwaves into speech, given copious amounts of testing and learning on the part of the device. So yeah, chuck it 60 years into the future and you can see it be uber common and the like. But here's where the problem is, its a one way translator, not a communicator. Plus, as you mentioned, these waves are very short ranged and incredibly attuned to each individual person. So saying that you can suddenly turn them into long ranged remote controls means completely fucking up what the wave is to begin with. If that was true, we could just copy the herz level of the waves and make them work. Unfortunately, reality steps in.
Then there's the problem of complexity. As mentioned with the ibrain thing, it's estimated to take 3 years to attune someone's brain to the language device. Michio Kaku was talking about this on the Daily Show last monday (reference for people who want to listen to the interview, its a good overview over things, but I can pm journal links for those who want more in depth stuff), and he kept on emphasizing one thing along with this brain idea: the brain is complex. Uber complex. As in "most complex object that we know of in the universe" As in "super computer the size of a city block is needed to compare with it in computational power and even then its iffy". To put this in Shadowrun terms, Deus is roughly equivalent to one human mind. And the power consumption of such a computer, as well as the "negative heat" needed to cool it is immense. No matter what tech we have, there is simply no way to compress such a computer down to a handheld level, it needs the energy and you can only make a magnet so small.
The radio waves example is different, because radio waves are 1- long range and 2- the computer, even when its not turned on, still "receives" them, the antenna is designed to receive a ton of them. Its sort of like a radio, a radio always receives radio signals, since they are basically bouncing off the antenna physically, turning on the power just powers the magnets in the speakers who translate those waves into sound. Radio waves, amongst other ones, are relatively universal and long ranged. Its why we use them for communication and why telepathy is bullshit.
Long story short, there is no way in fucking hell that this would ever work at a distance. Physically being in contact with the person, with a device attuned to that specific person, then uploading info into him and into his brain, yes. But magic spell from a distance hacking is implausible, not to mention universal device that works on everyone is just fucking impossible.
So realism doesn't work as a reason, which means it comes down to whether or not its worth it in game.
As other people have mentioned here, doing this turns hackers into mages. Though they share many of the same roles, this still basically turns Shadowrun into Savage Worlds. There's nothing wrong with this, but you need to know what you are going into. Secondly, though yes invasive devices are a very cyberpunk-ey thing to do, forcing technology onto nature is not. Cyberpunk is man vs machine, with the core decision being whether or not man chooses to embrace the machine. In return, the machine can choose to embrace nature, a la Blade Runner. But technology never can really force itself upon nature, its what makes dehumanization thanks to cyber tech so agonizing as a moral choice. This is why essence is part of the game, though clunky, it represents a core pillar of the genre, tracking how much of your humanity you are willing to sacrifice.
And this is where it all comes back to actual gameplay. Cybered devices, especially cybered adepts are freaking murder on wheels and a cybered up samurai is right behind them. Mages are no slouch either. But mages can't shut down cybertech, and unlike cybertech, mages have a limit to their power use. So that's where I feel where hackers should come in. Hackers don't necessarily embrace the machine, they embrace information. They should be there to support the team both off the table and versus machinery, such as riggers and the like. Much like mages are needed to fight magical beings, hackers should be needed to even the odds against teched up beings.
So then it does become a matter of carrots for cybertech, which, as you mentioned, might not be enough at the current moment. I tend to disagree, considering how much of a bonus those extra initiative passes and dice pool ads can be worth it in combat, but that might be the different groups we play with. Simplify hacking versus objects and boost cybertech and street sammies. Boom, remains within the genre of the setting and makes hackers really worthwhile on the tabletop. Otherwise you can brain hack an Amerindian shaman, which goes against the very goddamn foundations of the game, Magic and humanity vs technology.
Last edited by TheNotoriousAMP on Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nath
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Post by Nath » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:41 pm

Shadowrun, like any fiction, relies on the assumption that any element that is left unspecified must be similar to real life. This has two implications. The first is that if people can think of a solution to a problem that is not mentionned in-game but is possible in real life, they will believe it is possible as well in-game. You can specifically try to list every possibly spoil to your plan ahead to rule them out, but for some thing it is difficult to do it without looking retarded (like wires no longer being available).
The second implication is that people, authors included, assume a number of things do exist as they do in the real world. You will assume the military still has nuclear weapons. You will assume head of states still make public speeches. Even though you wrote in the rules that every system must be be connected to Matrix and can be hacked, or that a single Complex Action allows you to read the mind of a person for any piece of information you want, and as the result, the world as you know it cannot simply exist.
That's basically the same problem that someone remarked in another thread, that no one should bother with standing armies in your average D&D setting, considering that wars will be won or lost solely based on the number of high-level casters on each side.
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Post by Whipstitch » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:01 pm

It doesn't turn hackers into mages any more than having nerve gas or a Pain Inducer turns a samurai into a Magician. Magicians are a helluva lot more than fucking debuff dispensers. The utility they pack is immense. I find it really weird that you continually call making hackers more like mages a bad thing when mages can at least contribute to the game and hackers basically can't because their rules blow and are countered by fucking Luddite tactics. There's plenty of room for hackers to receive crazy shit without becoming as powerful as mages.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TheNotoriousAMP
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Post by TheNotoriousAMP » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:21 pm

> Whipstitch wrote:It doesn't turn hackers into mages any more than having nerve gas or a Pain Inducer turns a samurai into a Magician. Magicians are a helluva lot more than fucking debuff dispensers. The utility they pack is immense. I find it really weird that you continually call making hackers more like mages a bad thing when mages can at least contribute to the game and hackers basically can't because their rules blow and are countered by fucking Luddite tactics. There's plenty of room for hackers to receive crazy shit without becoming as powerful as mages.

The problem with this argument is that luddite tactics don't work. Barring chucking boatloads of enemies at your posse, a cybered up street sammie can and will wreck your shit up. As it should be, while mages are good swiss army knives, the street sammie should be the end all and be all when it comes to turning enemies into a bloody mist. The problem is not that hackers can just counter cyber shit, its that the way they do it is too convoluted and with too little reward at the moment.
Mages and hackers in many ways are two sides of the same general role coin, forceful information acquisition, power resistance (counterspell and enemy hacker) and then debuff and buff giver. They just work on two different sets of enemies and planes, which is where they really establish themselves. Its this space of difference that needs to be preserved to keep them viable and making a hacker work on luddites does just that. The basic idea works, it just needs to be tweaked. As I mentioned above, make cyber shit and tac nets better. Maybe even give sammies an edge vs mages, so hackers are more important. Not to mention, too few times are enemy hackers really thrown at the party. If you make it easier for hackers to fuck with cyber tech, you also give the gm the incentive to use hackers himself on the table top, making having your own hacker even more important. There's tons of stuff that can be done without completely breaking shadorun's paradigm.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:26 pm

> TheNotoriousAMP wrote:the street sammie should be the end all and be all when it comes to turning enemies into a bloody mist.

I'm pretty sure most people who are into Shadowrun don't want street sams to be better than nuclear weapons at this job, or even better than helicopter gunships. (unless the street sams are piloting helicopter gunships or nuclear tanks)
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TheNotoriousAMP
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Post by TheNotoriousAMP » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:28 pm

> RadiantPhoenix wrote:

> > TheNotoriousAMP wrote:the street sammie should be the end all and be all when it comes to turning enemies into a bloody mist.

> I'm pretty sure most people who are into Shadowrun don't want street sams to be better than nuclear weapons at this job, or even better than helicopter gunships. (unless the street sams are piloting helicopter gunships or nuclear tanks)

Let me restate that, the be all and end all to turning enemies into a bloody mist on the table top and within reasonable limits on what's going on in combat. Smartass.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:32 pm

Wait, what world are you living in that Magician debuffs are good?
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TheNotoriousAMP
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Post by TheNotoriousAMP » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:38 pm

> Whipstitch wrote:Wait, what world are you living in that Magician debuffs are good?

I'm not saying that they are good, I'm saying that they are plentiful and at times can be used by creative players (especially the ice and like) to really do some cool shit. The main point is not that they are good at it, its that the hackers and mages have/should have access to a lot of debuffs.
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Post by Grek » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:31 pm

AMP/Heisenberg/Etc: If you don't like wireless mind hacking, how do you feel about Trode Guns? They're basically paint ball rounds, except instead of being filled with paint, they're filled with trode paste and antennas.

> FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.

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Post by Lokathor » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:31 pm

> Cyberzombie wrote:It's not unreasonable because of psuedoscience, it's unreasonable because it doesn't feel like a hacker anymore. Hackers interact with technology, that's their entire concept. If you're shutting down people's brains instead of their cyberlimbs, it's not fitting the flavor of a cyberpunk hacker type.

No, what you're not understanding that even the human brain is a technology to be exploited as much as you can just like any other. That's cyberpunk.

> Cyberzombie wrote:It feels like a reflavored mage and is just unsatisfying to me.

This is a legitimate concern that I'm willing to attempt to address. Could you go into any more detail about why hacking someone's brain with a computer and radio waves to give them a seizure feels like a mage shooting manabolts to burn out your insides, but a samurai shooting bullets to put holes in your insides doesn't feel like the mage? Either way you're making ranged attack rolls against some defense that your target has and then they fall over if you win by enough.

> Whipstitch wrote:It kills me that people repeatedly harp on an invasive, inescapable technology not being cyberpunk.

The bug man gets it.

> TheNotoriousAMP wrote:The problem with this argument is that luddite tactics don't work. Barring chucking boatloads of enemies at your posse, a cybered up street sammie can and will wreck your shit up. As it should be, while mages are good swiss army knives, the street sammie should be the end all and be all when it comes to turning enemies into a bloody mist. The problem is not that hackers can just counter cyber shit, its that the way they do it is too convoluted and with too little reward at the moment.

I'm really not sure about this. A Force 8 spirit can sure bring down a lot of carnage onto people, and when it does the Mage (floating nearby in astral space) might even be able to summon up another one. Or probably at least another Force 6 spirit.
Anyway, as you go through the game and get more money, you don't get more essence. So you'll end up switching to Bioware instead of Cyberware just because it's more essence friendly anyway, so you can stuff more bonuses into your body. So even if low level people were all cybered up, as they advance they would go away from being cybered, and you'd be back at square one.
Last edited by Lokathor on Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TheNotoriousAMP » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:50 am

> Lokathor wrote:I'm really not sure about this. A Force 8 spirit can sure bring down a lot of carnage onto people, and when it does the Mage (floating nearby in astral space) might even be able to summon up another one. Or probably at least another Force 6 spirit.
> Anyway, as you go through the game and get more money, you don't get more essence. So you'll end up switching to Bioware instead of Cyberware just because it's more essence friendly anyway, so you can stuff more bonuses into your body. So even if low level people were all cybered up, as they advance they would go away from being cybered, and you'd be back at square one.

True the spirit is powerful, but a street sammie is still a force to reckon with. The thing is, the street sammie should be better though. Fluff wise they are the bruisers. This is sort of why every post on this subject I make, I point out that the problem with hackers is not so much just with hackers, but with several other classes in the system too. Hackers fucking with cybertech would be an awesome thing, if, as you mention, there weren't so many other things that can do a street sammies role. Cyberware should be better than bioware, because bioware technically should be the peak of human performance, while cyberware is simply peak performance. Its why I always kind of laugh when they talk about vat grown muscles and the like. Without the reinforcing of the bone structure that comes with cybertech, and the added energy flow that cybertech offers, a genetically grown muscle is still strongly limited by its user's genes. This is just one of many issues, the second being that mages lack non magic counters, while street sammies can get touched by everyone and hackers don't really use their powers on the tabletop either. Its why I suggested a while back that hackers be a hard counter to street sammies and riggers, and that street sammies should fuck with all magic, not just healing magic. Hackers are just the most visible part of an edition that was loaded with issues balancing the classes. If you want to fix one of them, you need to fix them all.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:01 am

> Lokathor wrote:Anyway, as you go through the game and get more money, you don't get more essence. So you'll end up switching to Bioware instead of Cyberware just because it's more essence friendly anyway, so you can stuff more bonuses into your body. So even if low level people were all cybered up, as they advance they would go away from being cybered, and you'd be back at square one.

Yeah, but that would be high level people spending points on being less hackable. (Even if they're being forced to do so)
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Post by Cyberzombie » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:16 am

> Lokathor wrote: This is a legitimate concern that I'm willing to attempt to address. Could you go into any more detail about why hacking someone's brain with a computer and radio waves to give them a seizure feels like a mage shooting manabolts to burn out your insides, but a samurai shooting bullets to put holes in your insides doesn't feel like the mage? Either way you're making ranged attack rolls against some defense that your target has and then they fall over if you win by enough.

Brain attacks go to a line of sight mechanic (same as magic), and achieve similar effects to magic.
Once you allow brain hacking, there's no longer any point to ever hack someone's cyberware, jam their comms or other iconic hacker actions. Instead of creatively turning technology against your enemies, you're just making their heads explode with psionic blasts. At that point, why not just toss mana bolts or shoot them in the head? I mean it's all really brainless at that point, and the hacker becomes another guy who simply dishes out damage.
This is obviously my personal taste speaking, but the brain hacking concept just doesn't work for me from a flavor standpoint. I realize what it's trying to fix mechanically. It's just no longer a hacker to me. It's some kind of technology assisted psionic.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:00 am

I feel quite strongly that if you are making the argument that Snow Crash and fucking Tron are not cyberpunk or hacking enough for your tastes that your tastes are stupid and should be ignored.
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