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OgreBattle
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### Man vs Beast fights in real life

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Post by OgreBattle » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:27 am

I like finding references for things like armored combat and so on, it helps with me building 'authenticity' in fiction and RPG design (and I also just like reading about fights).
But accounts of man vs beast fights are less common (also as far as I know nobody writes manuals about how to stab bears).
I know that the Romans had fighters called 'venators' that specialized in beast fights, as well as 'bestiarii' convicts who just got thrown to the lions. I'm looking for direct accounts of venatore vs beast fights though, to see how they went.
I've found more recent accounts of man vs beast though, such as a Park Ranger fatally stabbing a lion to death in 1903:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/hunting/ ... 4765171993

> ...I was still riding quietly along when the two forms loomed up within three or four yards, and these I now recognised as two lions, and their behaviour was such I had little doubt but that their intentions were to attack my horse. Although, of course, I had my rifle (without which I never moved in the veld) there was not time to shoot, and as I hastily pulled my horse around I dug the spurs into his flanks in a frantic effort to urge him to his best speed to get away in time; but the approaching lion was already too close, and before the horse could get into its stride I felt a terrific impact behind me as the lion alighted on the horse's hindquarters.
> What happened next, of course, occupied only a few seconds, but I vividly recall the unpleasant sensation of expecting the crunch of the lion's jaws in my person. However, the terrified horse was bucking and plunging so violently that the lion was unable to maintain its hold, but it managed to knock me out of the saddle. Fortune is apt to act freakishly at all times, and it may seem a strange thing to suggest that it was fortunate for myself that I happened to fall almost on top of the second lion as he was running around in front of my horse, to get hold of it by the head. Had I fallen otherwise, however, it is probable that the lion would have grasped me by the head, and then this book would assuredly never have been written! Actually, the eager brute gripped my right shoulder between its jaws and started to drag me away, and as it did so I could hear the clatter of my horse's hooves over the stony ground as it raced away with the first lion in hot pursuit; itself in turn being chased by my dog "Bull".
> Meanwhile, the lion continued dragging me towards the neighbouring Metsimetsi Spruit. I was dragged along on my back, being held by the right shoulder, and as the lion was walking over me his claws would sometimes rip wounds in my arms and I was wearing a pair of spurs with strong leather straps, and these acted as brakes, scoring deep furrows in the ground over which we travelled. When the 'brakes' acted too efficiently the lion would give an impatient jerk of his great head, which added excruciating pain to my shoulder, already deeply lacerated by the powerful teeth. I certainly was in a position to disagree emphatically with Dr. Livingstone's theory, based on his own personal experience, that the resulting shock from the bite of a large carnivorous animal so numbs the nerves that it deadens all the pain; for, in my own case, I was conscious of great physical agony; and in addition to this was the mental agony as to what the lion would presently do with me; whether he would kill me first or proceed to dine off me while I was still alive!
> Of course, in those first few moments I was convinced that it was all over with me and that I had reached the end of my earthly career.
> But then as our painful progress still continued, it suddenly struck me that I might still have my sheath knife! I always carried this attached to my belt on the right side. Unfortunately, the knife did not fit too tightly in its sheath, and on two previous occasions when I had had a spill from my horse while galloping after game during the Boer War it had fallen out. It seemed almost too much to expect that it could still be safely there after the recent rough episodes. It took me some time to work my left hand round my back as the lion was dragging me over the ground, but eventually I reached the sheath, and, to my indescribable joy, the knife was still there! I secured it, and wondered where best first to stab the lion. It flashed through my mind that, many years ago, I had read in a magazine or newspaper that if you hit a cat on the nose he must sneeze before doing anything. This particular theory is, of course, incorrect; but at the time I seriously entertained the idea of attempting it, though on second thoughts I dismissed the notion, deciding that in any case he would just sneeze and pick me up again - this time perhaps in a more vital spot!
> I decided finally to stick my knife into his heart, and so I began to feel very cautiously for his shoulder. The task was a difficult and complicated one because, gripped as I was, high up in the right shoulder, my head pressed right up against the lion's mane, which exuded a strong smell (incidentally, he was purring very loudly, something after the fashion of a cat - only on a far louder scale - perhaps in pleasant anticipation of the meal he intended to have) and this necessitated my reaching with my left hand holding the knife across his chest so as to gain access to his left shoulder. Any bungling, in this manoeuvre, would arouse the lion, with instantly fatal results to myself! However, I managed it successfully, and knowing where his heart was located, I struck him twice, in quick succession, with two back-handed strokes behind the left shoulder, the lion let out a furious roar, and I desperately struck him again: this time upwards into his throat. I think this third thrust severed the jugular vein, as the blood spurted out in a stream all over me. The lion released his hold and slunk off into the darkness. Later I measured the distance and found that he had dragged me sixty yards. Incidentally, it transpired later that both first thrusts had reached the heart.

There's also photos of the lion skin (with stab wounds marked) and the knife used to kill it from Kruger Park:
http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthrea ... th-a-knife
A quick google search also brought up this account of a man stabbing a mother grizzly to death through the back:
http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online ... th_a_knife
Also found this article where a a man's son and grandson are killed by a tiger, so he swordfights it to death (the man, his son and grandson, and the tiger were then buried together)
http://www.burmatoday.net/burmatoday200 ... aladan.htm
And of course Cracked has listed 7 together here:
http://www.cracked.com/article/93_the-7 ... owdowns_p2
Any other detailed accounts of man vs beast out there where the man triumphs, or at least delivers a hard fight?
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:14 pm

The stupidity of Aligator/Crocodile Wrestling does not count i presume?
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:08 pm

> Stahlseele wrote:The stupidity of Aligator/Crocodile Wrestling does not count i presume?

Here's a prank where a Japanese man succeeds in his deception check vs alligator perception
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHtFJjjfx3M
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:00 am

The workers had been shooting orangutans for sport, until one of them was found unconscious and covered in bites from an 'unknown number of Orangutans, but definitely more than one'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... k-out.html
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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:51 pm

This one comes to mind:
http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Man-r ... t-20050622
probably worth tracking down the original report.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by tussock » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:35 am

Long story short, there's 7 billion of us and everything else our size is either domesticated or we're choosing to let it exist to sate our conscience (so many extinctions is just creepy). Humans started out making giant animals extinct by using sharp stones held in the hand, and as a result almost everything that's left is terrified of us.
A hunting knife, calmly playing dead, and anatomical studies certainly helped that bloke., but even a Halfling's dangerous with a big knife, or anything made of flint or steel.
PC, SJW, anti-fascist, not being a dick, or working on it, he/him.
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fectin
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Post by fectin » Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:47 am

Do you count this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJiZ2Hg ... XzZSvzaskk

> Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:31 am

Found a great vid of bear wrestling at some kind of fair.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... estle+bear
Masked wrestler vs 6' 6" 400lb bear. The Masked Wresterl, now retired, is narrating the fight. Talks about bear's use of illegal mask pulling which would be a DQ but alas nobody can speak bear and tell it that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjnuVFmiDfM
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:39 am

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ch-sudbury
"Nelson readied himself to take another swing at the bear. “I knew it would swing first with its left but it would really come with its right, because most bears are right-handed,” he said."
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maglag
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Post by maglag » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:43 am

Yeah, funny how some people claim that metal pikes should be used for big targets when we've been killing big targets with just sharp stones and sticks since forever. Pikes and guisarmes and poleaxes and whatnot were developed specifically for killing the ultimate predator, aka us.
Also remider that humans have been hunting whales, the biggest animals that ever existed, at least since we figured out how to record said hunts in cave paintings.
Just think about it, whales are only found in water, deep cold water, bigger than anything else seen, and our ancestors went "challenge accepted" and got on pieces of wood armed with just pointy sticks and rocks to hunt the biggest game while handicaping themselves with massive terrain disadvantage.

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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:54 pm

> maglag wrote:Yeah, funny how some people claim that metal pikes should be used for big targets when we've been killing big targets with just sharp stones and sticks since forever. Pikes and guisarmes and poleaxes and whatnot were developed specifically for killing the ultimate predator, aka us.

Even when you're partly right, you're so mostly wrong as to make explaining it extra difficult.
The idea of stabbing an enemy (whether it is a human or an animal) before it can stab you is pretty common, and spears work for hunting and fighting. You'll even hear of specialized hunting spears (boar spear).
During the Hellenistic Period, spears were replaced by sarissa which were essentially very long pikes. While they worked extremely well, other people adopted the formation. Two phalanxes could stalemate, but the formation was vulnerable to outflanking. Cavalry made the formation difficult and infantry ended up switching to the gladius during the Roman period. It wasn't really as an anti-infantry weapon that it found favor again, but as a way for infantry to oppose cavalry.
Saying that a pike is designed to kill men while completing ignoring the fact that those men were riding on horses charging en masse with the intention of breaking your formation leaves too much out to be a meaningful explanation.
If you were fighting a dragon, you'd probably want missile weapons first and foremost. If you knew you were going to have to stab it with a hand-held weapon, you'd probably want one with as long a pole as you could possibly have. Pikes remained a weapon with the introduction of gunpowder, and it didn't really cease to be a weapon until it was replaced by the bayonet.
Having the ability to stab someone who can't reach you is always a useful ability. For most of the last 500 years of real history the only thing you'd have to worry about mauling you is another human. But in a world that has manticores and dragons and other monsters that routinely invade 'civilization', pikes would be considerably more useful.
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Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:08 pm

> deaddmwalking wrote:During the Hellenistic Period, spears were replaced by sarissa which were essentially very long pikes. While they worked extremely well, other people adopted the formation. Two phalanxes could stalemate, but the formation was vulnerable to outflanking. Cavalry made the formation difficult and infantry ended up switching to the gladius during the Roman period. It wasn't really as an anti-infantry weapon that it found favor again, but as a way for infantry to oppose cavalry.

Wasn't it more the case that the Romans simply never adopted the sarissa?
In any case, yeah, you can kill an elephant with a stone spear. Or you can get an elephant gun which would tend to work better.
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:26 pm

Bow and Arrow. Catapults with scattershot. Ballistae with similar.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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maglag
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Post by maglag » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:52 pm

> Thaluikhain wrote: Wasn't it more the case that the Romans simply never adopted the sarissa?

Romans did use greek-style phalanxes at their early stages, but the thing with really long pointy sticks is that you need quite an amount of discipline to mount a formation that could make good use of it, and the romans figured out they would be better served by lots of low-mid level training soldiers with javelins and swords and shorter spears. However the roman for some time did retain long stick troops in the form of the Triari that were all veterans and hanged at the back of the army as their last ace.
Plus it was a pain to keep said formation in uneven terrain.
So one of the reason the roman army roflstomped all the greek-style stick phalanxes in Europe was because the romans quickly learned to simply refuse to engage phalanxes in plain ground, instead forcing combat at walls/streets/mountains where phalanxes couldn't hold together and were easily pierced by javelins and swords.

> Thaluikhain wrote: In any case, yeah, you can kill an elephant with a stone spear. Or you can get an elephant gun which would tend to work better.

Or you can just call the army's band and tell them to play extra loud to scare the elephants away (or make them trample their own army), Africanus style.

> FrankTrollman wrote: Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.

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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:27 pm

> maglag wrote: Romans did use greek-style phalanxes at their early stages, but the thing with really long pointy sticks is that you need quite an amount of discipline to mount a formation that could make good use of it, and the romans figured out they would be better served by lots of low-mid level training soldiers with javelins and swords and shorter spears.

So your argument is the Romans didn't value professionalism in the military? Really?
Please keep in mind that Republican Rome lasted 500 years and Imperial Rome 1500 years. With any group over two millenia you'll find examples of anything you're looking for, I don't think you'll find that the Romans could be construed as a less-disciplined or more poorly trained fighting force than the opponents they faced - certainly not in any generalized statement against ALL of their opponents.
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