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JonSetanta
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### Bushi aka Samurai

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Post by JonSetanta » Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:22 am

BUSHI
A Japanese-style warrior of nobility skilled in a variety of weapons.
Base Attack Bonus: 1/1
Good Saves: Reflex, Will
Hit Dice: d10
Weapons: Swords, Bows, Clubs, Spears and Polearms
Armor: Light and Medium, no Shields
Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim
Skill Points: 6 + Intelligence bonus
1 Bushido, Armored In Life
2 Bonus Feat
3 Bushido
4 Bonus Feat
5 Bushido
6 Jokoto
7 Advanced Bushido
8 Bonus Feat
9 Advanced Bushido
10 Headcutting
Bushido
At each level Bushido is gained, add one of the following abilities:
• Kenjutsu: The art of dueling. Melee attacks get double critical threat when made against a target that was hit with an attack made just before it. The previous attack can be made in the round prior, but no more than 1 round ago.
• Saya: When wielding a scabbard, club, or sword the character gains a parry attempt against weapon attacks. The countering attack roll is made at -4 penalty as an Immediate action against the incoming attack roll; if at least as high as the opposed roll, the attack is parried with no damage.
• Kiai: As a Move action once each round a single target within 60 feet that fails a Will save against DC 10 + 1/2 level + Charisma or Wisdom if higher becomes Shaken or becomes Panicked if a lower level.
• Battojutsu: All melee attacks add the character level to damage.
• Ken ore, ya mo tsuki: The art of "no sword". Treat the character's unarmed attacks as 1d10 + Strength damage Slashing weapons.
• Musashi: The character can use two swords at the same time with only a -2 penalty.
A week of retraining allows a Bushi to swap one Bushido ability for another.
Advanced Bushido
As "Bushido" but each time these abilities are gained a character may alternately choose two Bushido abilities:
• Grasscutter (Su): As a melee attack all ranged attacks and Listen checks within a 30 foot cone get a -4 penalty for 1 round. All enemies are Checked within this area and flying ones are pushed 1d6x10 feet.
• Iaijutsu: The art of drawing and cutting in one motion. For the first melee attack made in each turn the target is denied their Dodge bonus to AC.
• O-kesa: One melee attack each round counts as a touch attack. The decision is made before an attack roll is made.
• Ghost Cut: Melee attacks hit incorporeal targets normally and treat Force objects as having 30 Hit Points per 5 foot cube rather than being immune to damage.
Armored In Life
A Monk has a special Armor bonus whenever they are not using armor or shields that he is not proficient in. This Armor Bonus applies against Touch Attacks and Incorporeal Touch Attacks, and has a value of +4. Every even numbered class level, the Armored in Life bonus increases by 1. If the Monk wears armor which he is proficient in (for example: normal clothing) that has an enhancement bonus, that enhancement bonus applies to his Armored in Life Armor Bonus.
Jokoto
After a lengthy quest the Bushi inherits a minor artifact sword with unlimited Hit Points.
It can not be disarmed when wielded.
If ever stolen it returns to the owner after 24 hours.
Headcutting
All Slashing attacks made count as vorpal (target dies on a critical hit).
Last edited by JonSetanta on Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:16 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:24 am

I didn't include the Tome ability to parry magic or similar because I feel that should be an optional feat.
This class represents a mostly nonsupernatural warrior, except for Grasscutter from the myth, and should go over better with anyone desiring to play something close to the Earth equivalent.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:29 am

Much like everything else you make, this class has the same problems:
1) It's like a Tome Class but Better(TM) at low levels
2) It grants zero tools to deal with High Level Challenges, so gets dunked by angel archers forever and ever
You really need to do a number of things:
1) Figure out a conceptual space that is not "Guy that does melee damage with extra riders on his attacks, but no ability to deal with guys that shut down melee dps categorically"
2) Stop frontloading your fucking classes
Like, Bushido doesn't scale and the best Bushido you're going to pick up is going to be the first one you pick. Headcutting doesn't even matter, so I'm ignoring it. Jokoto isn't even an ability (either it never comes up because the DM doesn't make a habit of sundering the fighters weapons, or it does come up and the player argues with the DM about what "artifact sword" should mean), and Armored in Life is fucking stupid. At low levels it doesn't mean jack ( because you have medium armor) and at really high levels it's just stupid number inflation).
I'm gunna do some comparisons real fast.
Level 2:
Tome Fighter: Actually proficient in whatever "samurai" weapon you want, bonus feat, Combat Focus (1 reroll/swift action spent readying it)
Your garbage class: Not proficient with any "samurai" weapons, bonus feat, O-kesa/Double Grip
The difference: The fighter can blow a swift action for combat focus and expend it to reroll. He is also proficient in whatever stupid exotic weapon you think samurais use.
Your guy uses a two handed weapon and makes his only attack each round as a touch attack (alternatively, gets +1/2 str mod as extra damage)
Which one of these is more stupid?
Scaling up, +Character level to damage is nice. The rest of the class doesn't exist because you'd prestige out/take fighter levels because you got everything good in the class already.
In summary:
1) Like everything else you write, too good to dip into.
2) Doesn't actually do anything samurai related (either the option is a trap and not worth taking/using or it doesn't do anything samurai related)
3) We already have usable, interesting, samurai and fighter classes that actually have high level abilities and don't give permanent wraithstrike at level 1.
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:48 am

This class would be good and interesting if it were 5 levels long. You could make it 10 levels long if you make an "Advanced Bushido" list. That being said your Bushido powers are pretty cool but I have questions or critiques of some of them.
Grasscutter: I don't know how this works exactly. Is it any ranged attack originating in the 30 foot cone gets -4 or attacking into the cone?
Double Grip: This will not add as much damage as Battojutsu in almost any build and Battojutsu applies in less narrow circumstances.
O-Kesa: O-Kesa is basically totally superior to Iajutsu. Dodge bonuses are not super common (did you mean Dex?) and O-Kesa lets you apply the attack when you want it not just on the first roll. O-Kesa is also probably overpowered for the first 5 levels too. O-Kesa could be one of your Advanced Bushido skills coming online between levels 6 and 10 and it's probably be fine.
It also conceptually lacks a cool move quick and strike power that I would associate with a Samurai.

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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:33 am

Sigma let me spell it out for you.
The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
OK, do you understand that? Good. If you're having trouble, scroll up and reread it.
The problem with fighters is that they have zero ability to deal with flying enemies/forcecage/angel archers using teleport to kite for ever and ever/anything big enough automatically grapples them to death no matter how high their damage is/"Anything else that falls under things that beat fighters categorically"
Now, when you design a new class you want to make sure it does two things.
1) It actually does something new. This fails. This is literally just an even more dippable fighter.
2) That it can deal with at least some of the above problems at higher levels. I don't mean at level 1. I mean at higher levels where that stuff just gets built into all the challenges you face. At level 3, the most powerful effect in the game is glitterdust. Flying doesn't even come on line for anyone until level 5 or so. Charging things with a greatsword and dealing 2d6+str+power attack is totally fine for the first five levels. The HP hasn't scaled into infinity, and almost all the things that beat you categorically falls under the "high level challenges" part.
Let me state that once more to be very clear. Levels 1-4, the PHB fighter is totally fine. Because at those levels, you can solve every problem by wearing armor and charging at it with a great sword. The problem is not that fighters are not good at swording. The Ubercharger/frenzied berserkers are regular 3E stuff.
OK? Are you with me? All a swording class needs for offense in the first few levels are a couple of damage dice (rogue/Tome barbarian/knight/etc) or maybe a feat or two (seriously, a tome fighter pretty much gets +2/3 attack/damage out of his feats til he hits level six; go read them) and power attack. Everything dies in a couple of hits at low levels no matter how you build your PC. Damage is not the problem.
The problem is that some classes have built into them the ability to deal with things that categorically shut down melee dps (spellcasters have spells, rogue types aren't melee only, cleric archers aren't melee, warblades have ironheart surge, crusaders have initiative shuffling to contribute, swordsages get teleportation, etc).
If you make a class that grants no high level abilities to deal with an air elemental or a demon, your class fails. Period. Because high level adventures use elementals/demons/undead as staple enemies (largely because you can't just scale up a brown bear to CR 10 without the wizard casting fly and laughing at you).
If the only things your class can fight are enemies the wizard beats at level five, you are doing it wrong. Please stop writing garbage classes all over this board. Please don't be afraid to give melee nice things, but please also stop giving them all their nice things at level 1. Level 1 is the best level in the game for melee DPS. 2d6+1.5 str is seriously a save or die at level 1. It's just that instead of making a save you have AC.
Stop making classes that are OP at levels 1-5 but can't deal with flying enemies. Just stop.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:03 pm

I just might split them into Advanced Bushido and normal, thanks.
And thank you ubernoob for the advice.

> deanruel87 wrote: Grasscutter: I don't know how this works exactly. Is it any ranged attack originating in the 30 foot cone gets -4 or attacking into the cone?

The effect interrupts any ranged attack entering the zone. It's Gust of Wind.
Last edited by JonSetanta on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:30 pm

I took dean's advice and split Bushido into two categories. More Advanced to come later as I read up on what they might possibly be able to do without dipping to far into "magic" capabilities.
Trying not to frontload the class. I'm leaving in Armored In Life so that a Bushi can walk around in a kimono using nothing but their senses to protect them.
As far as why I'm attempting to create a new Samurai, I was dissatisfied with the Tome Samurai's antimagic focus and ability to use a scythe or pick rather than a katana (daito). The class rewards a player for choosing any weapon with a high crit multiplier rather than a sword or polearm, which are historically iconic.
Added a retraining option that allows a Bushi to swap Bushido abilities.
Last edited by JonSetanta on Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:04 am

> sigma999 wrote:I took dean's advice and split Bushido into two categories. More Advanced to come later as I read up on what they might possibly be able to do without dipping to far into "magic" capabilities.
> Trying not to frontload the class. I'm leaving in Armored In Life so that a Bushi can walk around in a kimono using nothing but their senses to protect them.
> As far as why I'm attempting to create a new Samurai, I was dissatisfied with the Tome Samurai's antimagic focus and ability to use a scythe or pick rather than a katana (daito). The class rewards a player for choosing any weapon with a high crit multiplier rather than a sword or polearm, which are historically iconic.
> Added a retraining option that allows a Bushi to swap Bushido abilities.

Well, now it's no longer Fighter, But Better (TM). But now it doesn't really do anything. You have a whole bunch of non-synergistic abilities. In any case, it looks less broken now. Let's see what happens when I make an example character.
Level 4 Human Bushi
1 Human bonus feat, 2 level feats, 2 class feats = 5 feats. Class features- Armored in Life 6 (good enough to want to run around with enchanted robes) Bushido twice (Battojutsu because it's the best ability and Saya because its the second best)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting (better than the bushido), Blitz, Combat School(something around two weapon fighting), Danger Sense, Great Fortitude.
Compared to a fighter with the same feats except trading great fortitude for Elusive Target (puts him at right around the same AC), and using the floating bonus feat for stuff like point blank shot/whatever.
Your guy deals more damage (because +level to damage and TWF), can block one attack per round as an immediate action (kinda broken), and the fighter hits more often (combat focus). Saves, AC, hp are basically the same. So we're basically a fighter.
This should not be surprising because you took the core feature of a fighter (bonus combat feats) and gave almost the same number of them to the samurai.
Numbers may or may not be too high, but at low levels stabby guys with gear are awesome anyways. Nothing too game breaking. As we scale up, lets see what we get vs a fighter.
Fighter 5th level- immediate action 5' step
Bushi 5th level- conditional improved crit. Kind of sucks considering improved crit was a shitty feat in 3E to start with. Edge goes to fighter, but your AC is starting to outscale him.
Sixth level- Artifact sword vs bonus feat. Edge goes to fighter.
Seventh level-Fighter crafts his own weapons vs 1 auto hit ability per round. Edge goes to fighter (because he can make himself 2 magic swords and magic armor which kind of beats your artifact sword and class armor bonus)
My conclusion- Deals slightly more damage than a fighter, slightly more AC, worse fort save, no real ranged combat options, only ability to deal with Things That Beat Fighters comes at level 9 (ability to cut through force effects). In summary, Fighter still does what your class wants to do better and you have stupid number inflation for no reason.
Important questions to come back to-
A) What iconic ability are you trying to replicate that Tome doesn't already cover in triplicate? Fighters can make their own magic swords. Samurai get their own magic swords as well. Samurai can do the swoooosh mooks are dead ability (whirlwind+crit). Fighters can do TWF+THF+Bow combat in the same build and be adaptable. Your class handles the SGT worse than a fighter, but at the same time has more numbers. Why are you making Gygax cry?
B) There is no B.
Last edited by ubernoob on Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:28 am

> ubernoob wrote: Feats: Two Weapon Fighting (better than the bushido)

I thought Gygax would scoff at the mere concept of an "Asian warrior" other than the Fighter, but whatever...
I designed the Bushido ability to use two swords that ignores "light" weapons. You can use two katanas with only -2 penalty.
As far as what I'm trying to replicate, the Tome Samurai seemed to specific, too many "you take X combat feat with no choice" focus when if you watch a film such as Seven Samurai there isn't much of that. I also dipped into various manga and modern samurai films for style and capability, which feats such as Whirlwind didn't seem to emulate.
I wanted to give a Samurai player more options.
Last edited by JonSetanta on Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:38 am

> sigma999 wrote:

> > ubernoob wrote: Feats: Two Weapon Fighting (better than the bushido)

> I thought Gygax would scoff at the mere concept of an "Asian warrior" other than the Fighter, but whatever...
> I designed the Bushido ability to use two swords that ignores "light" weapons. You can use two katanas with only -2 penalty.

A) Tome TWF gives a lot more than PHB TWF.
B) The difference between a d10 damage die and a d6 is 2 points of damage. Power attack in Tome gives +2 damage per -1 even on the off hand with TWF. So your -2 penalty is actually -4 damage per hand. Not worth it when you could spend a feat to not have that and also get extra AoOs.

> As far as what I'm trying to replicate, the Tome Samurai seemed to specific, too many "you take X combat feat with no choice" focus when if you watch a film such as Seven Samurai there isn't much of that. I also dipped into various manga and modern samurai films for style and capability, which feats such as Whirlwind didn't seem to emulate.
> I wanted to give a Samurai player more options.

And my write up indicates that a Tome Fighter flavored as a samurai has more options (and less damage oddly enough) than your class. You are taking a class that is already restrictive (mundane DPS) and restricting it further. Why?
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:49 am

Should I provide Battojutsu as an automatic ability rather than option?
I want to provide a damage output that keeps up with Tome Samurai's Kiai without relying on criticals due to preference for weapon choice.
The damage source should come from ability, not weapon.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:57 am

> sigma999 wrote:Should I provide Battojutsu as an automatic ability rather than option?
> I want to provide a damage output that keeps up with Tome Samurai's Kiai without relying on criticals due to preference for weapon choice.
> The damage source should come from ability, not weapon.

You deal more damage than a TWF fighter. You don't need more damage. If you don't believe me, go run a SGT.

> ubernoob wrote:Sigma let me spell it out for you.
> The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
> The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
> The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
> The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
> The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.
> The problem with fighters is not that they don't deal enough damage.

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ryanjohnson
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Post by ryanjohnson » Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:59 am

the bushi character is a really interesting one and has lot of potential too
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Last edited by ryanjohnson on Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:46 pm

> ryanjohnson wrote:the bushi character is a really interesting one and has lot of potential too.

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_W ... ss#Samurai
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Post by Surgo » Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:17 am

It's probably a spambot that will edit its post soon, ubernoob.
http://www.dnd-wiki.org -- the wiki
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:01 pm

> Surgo wrote:It's probably a spambot that will edit its post soon, ubernoob.

I was not aware that was a problem. TGD is for all intents and purposes invisible. You have to first be interested in TTG forums, then hang round long enough to actually hear about the den.
Weird.
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Post by Starmaker » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:32 pm

> ubernoob wrote:

> > Surgo wrote:It's probably a spambot that will edit its post soon, ubernoob.

> I was not aware that was a problem. TGD is for all intents and purposes invisible. You have to first be interested in TTG forums, then hang round long enough to actually hear about the den.
> Weird.

Bots don't have to target a specific site, they can just search for forums on specific software, webforms with potential sql injection vulnerabilities and whatnot. XRumer is pretty much fire and forget.
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Post by Wiseman » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:57 pm

> ubernoob wrote:

> > Surgo wrote:It's probably a spambot that will edit its post soon, ubernoob.

> I was not aware that was a problem. TGD is for all intents and purposes invisible. You have to first be interested in TTG forums, then hang round long enough to actually hear about the den.
> Weird.

It's not really a problem. The last spambot I saw here was some three months ago.
Keys to the Contract: A crossover between Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Kingdom Hearts.

> RadiantPhoenix wrote:

> > TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".

> The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".

> hyzmarca wrote:Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.

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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:16 am

I haven't seen any other than shadzar for a long time.
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