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Shrapnel
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Post by Shrapnel » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:04 am

I just wanna say that the thing about TLJ that struck me was that the called Not Hoth "the mineral planet," which besides being a dumb descriptor made me realize that all the single biome planets in Star Wars are known as "X Planet".
Tatooine - the Desert Planet
Hoth - The Ice Planet
Kashyyk - The Jungle Planet
Bajor - The Pretty Planet
Coruscant - the Boring Politics Planet
I mean, whats up with that?
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Omegonthesane
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Post by Omegonthesane » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:14 am

Bajor was from Star Trek, was that part of the joke?

> Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:28 am

I only remember Hoth being called 'the remote planet.'
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Post by deaddmwalking » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:34 am

Dagobah is the swamp planet. And the forest-moon of Endor. Yeah - it's a thing in Star Wars and it's a stupid thing. But if each planet has a variety of terrains then you wouldn't need to go to a different planet everytime you go somewhere - it's basically a cheap way of making the galaxy feel bigger but it can also backfire.
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Post by Hadanelith » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:27 am

Just got back from finally seeing TLJ...
I don't think I've been this disappointed in a Star Wars movie since Phantom Menace. This movie was *awful*, both as a Star Wars movie and just as a film.
Point by point on the plot:
The opening sequence was bad. While the whole phone call thing was a decently funny bit, it went on about 2 exchanges too long. The space battle that followed was insultingly stupid, between the idea that this Dreadnaught has no effective anti-starfighter defenses and the ludicrous design of the bombers with *gravity bombs*. This sequence was effectively a straight up WWII bombing run, and it just didn't make any sense.
Rey's badgering of Luke went on too long, and while it kind of aped the kung fu movie 'seek out the master, he refuses to train you but he's actually testing you/teaching you the whole time he's refusing' thing, it didn't pan out in the end at all, so it felt completely wasted.
The rebel fleet escaping to deep space was fine. The FO tracking them was fine. The idea that they would just follow along, shooting at them ineffectively for hours and hours, is just insane. I was specifically irritated that they remembered that ships have shields NOW, but they totally didn't during the opening battle or the starfighter fight that started the chase. Are they going with the idea that starfighters ignore shields for some bullshit reason? If so, why would they not send in a massive starfighter wave to end the battle? The FO had 6+ Star Destroyers plus the Super Star Destroyer - they should have had at least three or four hundred TIEs, and since TIEs blew out the bridge and space Leia, they must be capable of otherwise hurting the ships. This whole ticking clock siege setup was dumb, and the follow on effects were bad too.
Spacing Leia felt like 'oh, so that's how they're gonna fix it', and then they didn't. Instead they have her explicitly use the Force, which, okay, fine, but what the hell? I guess they just wanted her out of the way for a while, and couldn't think of a better way?
Finn trying to cut and run? Fine. Rose catching him? Fine. Them turning around and hatching a plan to save the fleet? No. The dialogue was bizarre during this bit, and the instant turn-around from anger to camaraderie felt very forced. Poe going with it? Eh, it fits.
The casino planet was one sequence that went on exactly as long as was reasonable, without drastically overstaying its welcome. It was a bit on the ham handed side, mind you, but it didn't drag on, the action half was fun, and no part of it felt too out of left field.
Getting back to the fleet, Poe's little mutiny could have been completely prevented just by telling everyone the plan. Not doing so was ludicrous.
Then there's the Holdo maneuver. Why the HELL did she wait that long? If the whole plan was a noble sacrifice, why wait until half the damn shuttles got blown up to get started? Just do it straight off! It also opens a brand new can of worms. Someone finally realized that a sufficiently fast drive system is also a powerful weapon. Great. Now ramming things at FTL is a thing that you can reasonably do in Star Wars. That's...a solution that no one EVER considered for the Death Stars? Especially since according to TFA, hyperdrive bypasses shields? The Rebels could have just rammed a Mon Cal cruiser straight into Death Star II, ignored the planetary shield, and won with only materiel losses and no personnel! This is a TERRIBLE precedent to set!
Finn, Rose, and the slicer on the SSD: eh? BB-8 as a trash can was cute, the evil BB-8 was just merchandising, the shot of the iron descending was actually a fun shot, cinematigraphically. Getting caught, the slicer selling them out, and almost getting executed? Eh. Finn and Phasma fighting? WHY? Why bring back Phasma after they threw her in a trash compactor, just to kill her off anyway in a fight that means nothing and goes nowhere?
Not-Hoth: I really liked the visuals. I liked the salt-foxes (but that's mostly just me being a sucker for foxes). But setting up for Battle of Hoth version 2 was really goofy. Why was the big gun ('based on Death Star tech', doesn't look at all like Death Star anything...)TOWED? Why did they tow it with mono-purpose walkers (that were based on Strandbeests, which is cool, but pointless)? Why the FUCK did Rose stop Finn from making HIS heroic sacrifice? I'm sorry, her reasoning is bullshit, and then they didn't even have her die!
Rewinding to Rey: Luke is *completely* out of character. His refusing is bullshit, his lessons are bullshit, his reasoning is bullshit, and the whole thing is character assassination of the highest order. Rey, meanwhile, is stuck with a whiny emo in her head, the poor girl. Those conversations drag on for way too long, and continue to include Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron, so I'm not a fan. The library tree was some hilarious bullshit - up until this point, only Han has called the Jedi a 'religion', so having Luke suddenly talking about the 'holy texts' was way weird. Ditto the idea that they've been on this tiny island on some planet no one's heard of, and not, say, in the JEDI TEMPLE. The FUCK?
The whole 'infinity mirror' well of the Dark Side thing was just weird. I liked the effect, I liked the whole bit with Rey trying to figure out what the deal was...but there was NO PAYOFF. I thought they were going to go with some kinda 'many possible futures' thing or something, but for it all to come to exactly NOTHING was really weird.
The back and forth about the day Ben Solo became Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron felt like more character assassination of Luke. Also irritating - they keep mentioning other students, but they never bother to show them at all. Then Rey steals the books, and leaves. Joy.
Luke's whole conversation with Ghost!Yoda was bizarre. I appreciate that they dug out the old puppet, but why? Yoda was inscrutable, Luke was inscrutable, a Force Ghost had physical effect on the world, which was new and unnecessary, and the whole thing felt way out of place.
Rey ends up on the SSD with Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron, and they go talk to Mutant McGrossFace, who is a condescending dickhead, but not as good a condescending dickhead as Palps, so...meh. Special shoutout to Rey summoning the lightsaber and Mutant McGrossFace clobbering her in the head with it. The way Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron kills him was pretty sweet; the big fight sequence was kinda sweet, if gratuitous; the whole 'battle of wills staring contest while doing aggressive jazz hands at each other' thing went on for FOREVER. sigh. Rey...escapes. Off screen. Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron becomes new 'Supreme Leader'. I notice that even his subordinates don't really believe in him very much. Oh, additional shoutout to the last kill in the fight with the red guard guys - that was something people have been thinking was a good idea for a long time, so it was fun to see.
Rewinding again: Chewbacca is in this movie. His little scene with the Porgs was...two shots too long, and completely pointless. And that is basically the sum total of his involvement in this movie.
Right, big finale! Luke shows up on not-Hoth, taunts Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron into fighting him, doesn't actually fight, turns out he isn't really there. This is a major Force Illusion, and it's actually kind of neat, even if it kills him in the end.
Rey and Chewie draw off the TIEs in the Falcon in a fun little flight sequence through some salt crystal caves, which is fine. Porgs show up here as comic relief, which is...acceptable, I guess? They don't get in the way, which is nice.
The Resistance escapes with the help of the salt foxes, Rey does some pretty significant TK, and they all escape. Luke dies, Rose is comatose, and we end by flying away in the Falcon. Feels like the end of TFA, and not in a great way. The last shot was purely setup, and it felt like some Marvel-style foreshadowing stuff. I do not approve.
Acting:
Decent acting by most people that got to do stuff. Massively hamstrung by the script. I find it telling that Mark Hamill has said (not the exact quote, but the gist) 'I disagree with everything you're doing to Luke, but I'll go do my job as an actor'. Guess it's a good thing they killed him off. But they didn't kill Leia, even when they had an easy way to do so. How the hell are they gonna fix that come the next movie? Kill her off screen?
Major shoutouts to Adam Driver and Domhnall Gleeson - they managed to be thoroughly unlikeable villains, turning in convincing performances despite the script. Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron is exactly that, which appears intentional, so that was good acting. Hux was conceptually the worst sort of elitist British Imperialist, and he was exactly that. Apparently Gleeson did a LOT of research on how to portray the role convincingly, and it shows.
Boyega does a decent job as Finn, but he has to fight with characterization as someone who is way more naive than the actor.
Oscar Isaac turns in a good performance as Poe, despite getting handed the idiot ball by the script.
Carrie does fine as Leia, but she doesn't actually get to do much in the movie. As her last hurrah, it's pretty muted.
Daisy Ridley does alright with what she has - but she has to play a girl who has Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron in her head AND Massive Dick Alternate Universe Luke Skywalker being a dick to her face. Her perseverance is kind of admirable.
They didn't get Peter Mayhew as Chewie. Maybe that's why he's barely in the movie.
Andy Serkis is fine as Snoke. He's not as good at being evil as Ian McDiarmid, but what can you do?
Laura Dern as Admiral Holdo...she's written as a bitch, she pulls it off just fine. My complaint is her script, not the acting.
Kelly Marie Tran as Rose is...fine, I guess? Again, I mostly hate the script, not the actress.
The nitpicks:
Do shields work, or not? Make up your minds!
Capital ships have never needed fuel before. This is a limitation that they have added for this movie. I wish they hadn't.
Gravity doesn't work like that, space bomber friends.
How the hell do they *hear* the Star Destroyers arriving on the planet's surface at the beginning?
During Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron's big 'fight' with Luke, they couldn't figure out which way he was holding his lightsaber, shot to shot.
Porgs nesting in the Falcon's wiring? And Chewie doesn't say or do *anything*? Really?
Given the size of the island, what the hell is up with the 'caretaker' aliens? Also, how the hell do they not exist for apparent DAYS, and then they have just always been there?
Why the hell do they show us Luke's X-Wing, and then never do the 'lift it from the sea' shot? Or do ANYTHING with it at all?
Why is the Mon Cal Cruiser's hanger bay empty for like 150 meters while Irritating Manchild Kyle Ron is flying through it, with a handful of fighters right at the back end?
Why in the world don't the FO use all the TIE Fighters they obviously have?
Actually, why is the only real dogfight the terrible bomber escort bit at the beginning? This is Star Wars, dammit, X-Wings dogfighting with TIE Fighters is something that should happen a lot.
Why are the cops on the casino planet wearing samurai helmets?
Why didn't Holdo bother to just TELL Poe (and everyone else, for that matter) the plan?
Why did Holdo wait until half the shuttles were gone, just watching, before her (clearly planned) suicide run?
Actually, why not evac the medical frigate BEFORE it runs out of fuel, and use THAT to ram?
Why does no one but evil!BB-8 question the moving, beeping trashcan?
Why in the FUCK does the entire 'infinity mirror' sequence come to literally NOTHING?
There's probably more, but those are the ones that came to mind.
Final thoughts:
Everything that has anything to do with the Force in this movie is basically garbage (except Snoke whacking Rey with the lightsaber, that was hilarious). The characters all grab the idiot ball, nobody (except Finn and Rose) bother to tell anyone else what they're about to do, and Luke just straight up gets fucked as a character. The space battles are unsatisfying...actually, they're mostly just insulting to your intelligence. Rian Johnson just doesn't GET Star Wars. What it's about, why we watch it, what people like about it.
This film is structurally a mess and thematically a disaster. I rate it way worse than TFA, worse than Episodes II and III. I honestly can't decide if I dislike this more than the Phantom Menace. If you're a Star Wars fan, this movie doesn't want you to like it, and if you're not...then why would you start with Episode EIGHT?
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Post by Maj » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:58 am

> Stahlseele wrote:Then that writer should be sacked for putting his political agenda into a disney movie like that.

Disney has always been political. Back in the day, the government paid them to be.
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Post by erik » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:52 am

I found it entertaining so long as I didn't think about a damned thing.
It does seem that TFA and TLJ suffer from missed opportunities and lackluster writing. I don't know how they cannot afford better writers.
I would've gone a different way with Luke, but I cannot say it is out of character since like 30 years have passed. That's enough time for a character to change. And also plenty of time for Leia to develop some chops with the force which was already alluded to with her sensing Han's death. I really wish they had Leia crash the ship and it be a total surprise that it was a threat because she used Jedi space warping or whatever to git er done, rather than a tactical oversight that every single idiot in the known galaxy has missed (yet immediately recognized the danger somehow right when it was too late).
Laura Dern should have been introduced to be part of the new generation of leadership rather than snuffed. What a wasted opportunity.
I wish Finn had met up with Maz for non-jedi Force training instead of that videogamey mission briefing to meet "the code hacker". I swear that felt like it was a straight up video game cut scene. Of course they'd have to get rid of the whole stupid chasing ships scenario, and the movie would be better for it.
I still wish Finn had been the one to turn the tide after being slashed in the back in the Rey vs. Ren fight at the end of TFA by bashing Ren from behind with a smoldering log, and then having a nice choreographed 2 v 1 fight to a standstill.
My nitpick to add:
It takes the crappy land speeders foreverrrr to make it to the AT-walkers, while dragging sticks for no goddamn reason other than to make pretty red lines (if they think dragging a stick in the ground offers stability to flight then they're as stupid as someone who thinks dropping bombs works in zero G). But then Finn is able to drag back Rose to the base on a makeshift sled in what appears to be less time than it took the land speeder to cross the distance. Next time just walk up to the giant unnecessary gun and throw a thermal detonator into it I guess.
And why does everyone give Poe shit about his Dreadnought plan? If that isn't a huge win for the rebels then what the fuck? Are they expecting minimal casualties in taking out something that allegedly can wipe out their entire fleet? (but only if the fleet doesn't fly away using reaction engines)
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Shrapnel
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Post by Shrapnel » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:55 pm

> Omegonthesane wrote:Bajor was from Star Trek, was that part of the joke?

'Twas. Would it be a sin to say I'm a big fan DS9?

> angelfromanotherpin wrote:I only remember Hoth being called 'the remote planet.'

Technically, it's referred to as "remote ice world of Hoth" in Empire. Which is close enough. I think it's referred to as an "ice planet" in some secondary media, like video games and such.

> deaddmwalking wrote:Dagobah is the swamp planet. And the forest-moon of Endor. Yeah - it's a thing in Star Wars and it's a stupid thing. But if each planet has a variety of terrains then you wouldn't need to go to a different planet everytime you go somewhere - it's basically a cheap way of making the galaxy feel bigger but it can also backfire.

You would think, that after 30+ years, they'd have found a better way of expanding the setting. Guess it's just so entrenched in the Star Wars formula that it won't be changing anytime soon...
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Post by Chamomile » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:27 pm

Star Wars is fantasy. The only rules it has to obey are the ones it establishes for itself. Introducing multi-biome planets to Star Wars only raises the question of why there aren't more.
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Post by K » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:35 pm

> erik wrote:I found it entertaining so long as I didn't think about a damned thing.
> It does seem that TFA and TLJ suffer from missed opportunities and lackluster writing. I don't know how they cannot afford better writers.

I suspect that the writers have a laundry list of workshopped requirements that included such things as too many fan-service characters, the requirement to do scenes in the best concept art they commissioned, narratively map onto 4/5/6, and the requirement to actively phase out all the old actors.
Its the mad-lib of screenwriting.
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Post by Hadanelith » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:42 pm

The Last Jedi straight up cannot manage time in a way that makes sense. How long was Rey on Ahch-To? How long was she badgering Luke for training? Who knows?
How long was the trip to Canto Bight? Sure seems to have not been the same length as the return trip. How long were Finn and Rose planetside there? :shrug:
Legit any time that relative speeds mattered, they don't work out well.
Which brings up a thought: If the Rebel ships were supposed to be faster than the FO ships...how did they never pull away? Sure looks to me like the ships were exactly the same speed for the whole chase...but then how did the Rebels get out range in the first bloody place?!
This movie is fractally nonsensical.
ETA
Actually, I just realized that it gets worse. One of Rey's earlier visions involves Kyle Ron getting his face stitched up...which is after he spaces Leia and the chase starts. But it's before more than half of her dealing with Luke on Ahch-To, which is apparently several days in length! So either the Ahch-To day is like 4 hours long, or time flows differently in different parts of the galaxy...or the movie just doesn't deal with time well AT ALL.
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Shrapnel
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Post by Shrapnel » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:49 pm

So, I am like, super psyched for the new female Doctor. But her outfit... High-waisted pants and suspenders? No one, not one human being or Time Lord on this planet - or any other - should ever wear that. It's an utter nightmare.
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Post by Ancient History » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:27 pm

So I just googled "women in suspenders" and...I have a new fetish.
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Post by Thaluikhain » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:39 pm

> Shrapnel wrote:So, I am like, super psyched for the new female Doctor. But her outfit... High-waisted pants and suspenders? No one, not one human being or Time Lord on this planet - or any other - should ever wear that. It's an utter nightmare.

Eh, they said that about Colin Baker's outfit.
Admittedly, he did turn out to be the least popular doctor so far.
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Post by Shrapnel » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:50 am

> Ancient History wrote:So I just googled "women in suspenders" and...I have a new fetish.

Yeah, well, you have pamphlets made from human skin, so you're weird.

> Thaluikhain wrote:

> > Shrapnel wrote:So, I am like, super psyched for the new female Doctor. But her outfit... High-waisted pants and suspenders? No one, not one human being or Time Lord on this planet - or any other - should ever wear that. It's an utter nightmare.

> Eh, they said that about Colin Baker's outfit.
> Admittedly, he did turn out to be the least popular doctor so far.

Colin's outfit was also nightmare, but it was the middle of the eighties, when that sort of shit flew. It's 2018, for Primus's sake, suspenders and cat emblems and cricket jackets with lettuce on them... We've moved beyond all that!
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:10 am

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > Ancient History wrote:So I just googled "women in suspenders" and...I have a new fetish.

> Yeah, well, you have pamphlets made from human skin, so you're weird.

Hey, I'd have human skin pamphlets, too, if I could afford them... I've heard of a box of copies of the necronomicon that were in the vicinity of a fire that people died in so they smell like burning human, too.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Post by Shrapnel » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:17 pm

That would be an awesome thing to own.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:08 am

Currently watching the 2017 Mummy movie. It's fine. The worst part so far is Tom Cruise and his character and everything that involves him.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Post by Pariah Dog » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:21 am

RWBY season 3 the death of Roman Torchwick. The most bullshit Deus Ex Machina shit I've seen short of the actual gods coming down to unfuck the mess.
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Post by Wiseman » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:47 am

The sad thing is that RWBY really suffers in the villain department. The instant he reveals an interesting motivation that could lead to all sorts of entertaining story developments, he dies.
Keys to the Contract: A crossover between Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Kingdom Hearts.

> RadiantPhoenix wrote:

> > TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".

> The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".

> hyzmarca wrote:Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.

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Post by Pariah Dog » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:07 am

I know, I was expecting him to explode the bird after Ruby made her getaway then complain about the stains never coming out of his suit.
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Post by Hadanelith » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:35 am

That would have been nice, yes. Taking out both Neo and Roman in less than 5 minutes felt a bit...cheap.
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:54 pm

So I also saw Justice League last night. While it was not as bad as I thought it was going to be, the bit where a Steve Mnuchin movie calls Barry Allen a failure for working three-part time jobs to try to earn a degree was a special level of out-of-touch insult.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by deaddmwalking » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:34 pm

I was working from home (but actually a friend's house who just moved) and he decided to watch it on a break. I was in the room and tuned in and out, but I would say I got the gist. It wasn't totally joyless and dark, but there was a fair bit of 'grim-derk' just for the sake of grim-derk. I liked the Wonder Woman scenes (and perhaps they meant more since I have seen Wonderwoman).
I HATED HATED HATED the CGI fear-demons. I cannot believe how crappy they looked.
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phlapjackage
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  Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:29 am

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Post by phlapjackage » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:41 pm

Speaking of crappy CGI...I just saw Black Panther. Wow. So bad. The fight scenes were pretty uniformlly awful, consisting of either quick-cut-Jason-Bourne shit or CGI so bad it looked like Matrix2 stuff.
Koumei: and if I wanted that, I'd take some mescaline and run into the park after watching a documentary about wasps.
PhoneLobster: DM : Mr Monkey doesn't like it. Eldritch : Mr Monkey can do what he is god damn told.
MGuy: The point is to normalize 'my' point of view. How the fuck do you think civil rights occurred? You think things got this way because people sat down and fucking waited for public opinion to change?
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