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Vnonymous
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Post by Vnonymous » Wed May 05, 2010 4:06 am

Hey people who are bitching about the word bitch: NEWSFLASH
Almost every insult that we have is gendered.
"Fuck you" is offensive to women because it is saying that being on the receiving end in sex is a bad thing and lowers your status in society.
"Go suck a barrel of cocks" is traditionally as insulting towards gays and women too. There are ...not many insults that aren't gendered. The ones that aren't generally have to do with shit and intelligence. That's about it.
You can probably guess as to whether or not "whoring" is gendered too.

> the pay gap, casual sexist atmospheres driving women out of high-paying disciplines like engineering, and the cultural idea that a woman who only acts to protect herself at a bar or a (male) friend's home or on the street as much as a man would was "asking for it" if a man rapes her.

Women aren't driven out of high paying disciplines like engineering because of a "hostile sexist atmosphere". Women are driven out of high risk, high reward fields because, compared to men, they're less likely to take big risks.
As for the wage gap, of course men make more money. Men suffer far more from workplace fatalities, work in dangerous environments and on jobs that keep them away from home/friends/family for months at a time.

> For example, firefighting, truck driving, mining and logging -- to name just a few high-risk jobs -- are all more than 95 percent male. Conversely, low risk jobs like secretarial work and childcare are more than 95 percent female.

The only way you're going to correct the wage gap is if you make 50/50 gender splits mandatory in every single job, and don't let women have kids until they retire.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Wed May 05, 2010 4:22 am

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IGTN
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Post by IGTN » Wed May 05, 2010 4:27 am

> Vnonymous wrote:Hey people who are bitching about the word bitch: NEWSFLASH
> Almost every insult that we have is gendered.

"Asshole" isn't.
"Shit-for-brains" isn't.
"Dumbfuck" isn't.
"Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad" isn't.
"You're too stupid to breathe" isn't.
Not to mention everything else that works as a slur off of anything but gender.

> > the pay gap, casual sexist atmospheres driving women out of high-paying disciplines like engineering, and the cultural idea that a woman who only acts to protect herself at a bar or a (male) friend's home or on the street as much as a man would was "asking for it" if a man rapes her.

> Women aren't driven out of high paying disciplines like engineering because of a "hostile sexist atmosphere". Women are driven out of high risk, high reward fields because, compared to men, they're less likely to take big risks.

[Citation needed]
If you look, you can find large numbers of people, men and women, complaining about parts of the atmosphere. Sometimes, like in this case, it gets fixed once enough people complain. But they had to complain in the first place.

> As for the wage gap, of course men make more money. Men suffer far more from workplace fatalities, work in dangerous environments and on jobs that keep them away from home/friends/family for months at a time.

> > For example, firefighting, truck driving, mining and logging -- to name just a few high-risk jobs -- are all more than 95 percent male. Conversely, low risk jobs like secretarial work and childcare are more than 95 percent female.

> The only way you're going to correct the wage gap is if you make 50/50 gender splits mandatory in every single job, and don't let women have kids until they retire.

There is no danger premium.
Specifically, look at first two the graphs on the link. The first one shows that the industry with the most workplace fatalities is Agriculture, Forestry, Fishing, and Hunting. That's also the second lowest-paying industry (according to the second graph). The graphs come straight off the site of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, hardly a biased source. The rest of the article addresses other things that do exist that are mistaken for a danger premium (like higher wages in construction and mining, regardless of risk).
Yes, issues arising from late pregnancy and nursing can keep women away from jobs. Yes, people will rationally (not rightly, unless you're a Libertarian, in which case I don't have to take you seriously) discriminate against people they might have to give maternity leave to. The latter part can be solved by making it mandatory to offer paternity leave.
"No, you can't burn the inn down. It's made of solid fire."
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed May 05, 2010 4:36 am

No one is asking for women who take years off to be paid the same as women who don't take years off.
We're asking for parity for equal responsibility. We're asking for parity in experience, parity in pay. We're asking for workplaces not to be gender restricted - when I was a kid the guys couldn't get jobs as waitstaff in some restaurants because they didn't hire guys. No girls could get hired into kitchen jobs because none of the restaurants hired girls for the line jobs (which paid better). And the interns at the local law office? The girl got to type papers and make coffee while the boy got to pull weeds. Literally. And there wasn't any reason for it aside from sexism - both the kids interning at the law office scored in the top percent of a percent on the PSATs.
Ugh. There's sexism all over if you know what you're seeing. Refusing to learn is being sexist, not being neutral.
-Crissa

> Kaelik wrote:Not sure what exactly you are talking about, but as for my random "Lying like Crissa and Ceiling Cat" it was mostly just modeled after specific Ceiling Cat post.

Nah, you did eventually read which statement I called you on, the thread was moving pretty fast. Obviously you disagree, but you did stop pretending I was pointing at something else. Zinegata keeps mentioning the bitch thing, as does ubernoob (for reasons I'm not sure anyone but he knows).
Offensive, yes, stupid, no.
Last edited by Crissa on Wed May 05, 2010 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jilocasin
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Post by Jilocasin » Wed May 05, 2010 4:44 am

> IGTN wrote:"Asshole" isn't.
> "Shit-for-brains" isn't.
> "Dumbfuck" isn't.
> "Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad" isn't.
> "You're too stupid to breathe" isn't.

Um... huh.

> Vnonymous wrote:The ones that aren't generally have to do with shit and intelligence. That's about it.

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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Wed May 05, 2010 4:45 am

Yeah. TGD. The so-called deep end of the Internet.
Reduced to arguing over what insults are taboo because they're "sexst".
What is the world coming to.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Wed May 05, 2010 4:47 am

> Crissa wrote:Ugh. There's sexism all over if you know what you're seeing. Refusing to learn is being sexist, not being neutral.

There's red all over if you know what you're seeing.
There's black people all over if you know what you're seeing.
There's opportunity all over if you know what you're seeing.
There's XXXX all over if you know what you're seeing. Refusing to learn is being XXXX, not being neutral.
I rest my case that Crissa is a whiny bitch.
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IGTN
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Post by IGTN » Wed May 05, 2010 4:49 am

> Jilocasin wrote:

> > IGTN wrote:"Asshole" isn't.
> > "Shit-for-brains" isn't.
> > "Dumbfuck" isn't.
> > "Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad" isn't.
> > "You're too stupid to breathe" isn't.

> Um... huh.

> > Vnonymous wrote:The ones that aren't generally have to do with shit and intelligence. That's about it.

Right. He'd addressed those, I just didn't see it. My mistake. There are still, of course, slurs against other things than gender.
Almost all generic insults are slurs, scatological, or attacks on someone's intelligence. Sure, I can agree with that. That doesn't make using slurs right.
"No, you can't burn the inn down. It's made of solid fire."
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Jilocasin
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Post by Jilocasin » Wed May 05, 2010 4:56 am

Oh, I pretty much agree. I just wasn't sure if you didn't notice or what. Either way those were hilariously spot on. Shit-for-brains made me crack up coming as it did right after what Vnonymous posted.
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Wed May 05, 2010 5:09 am

> IGTN wrote:Almost all generic insults are slurs, scatological, or attacks on someone's intelligence. Sure, I can agree with that. That doesn't make using slurs right.

I'm quoting this as a sample but I'm speaking in general terms that apply to everyone.
Whatever happened to all of that "TGD is the deep end of the Internet" and "We'll do mean things to you. On the Internet".
Honestly, all this whining about the use of "slurs" is baffling to me. Just two weeks ago the board pretty much lynched David A Hill when he posted here.
And now we're talking about how it's not right to insult other people?
It seems to me that th use of slurs isn't the issue at all. It's the use of slurs by people you don't like.
Sounds like an awful lot of Den people are just being hypocrites, honestly.
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Vnonymous
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Post by Vnonymous » Wed May 05, 2010 5:35 am

> Jilocasin wrote:

> > IGTN wrote:"Asshole" isn't.
> > "Shit-for-brains" isn't.
> > "Dumbfuck" isn't.
> > "Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad" isn't.
> > "You're too stupid to breathe" isn't.

> Um... huh.

> > Vnonymous wrote:The ones that aren't generally have to do with shit and intelligence. That's about it.

As for the rest of your post, that's explained really easily: People are bad at assessing risk. Yes, working on a farm is more dangerous for you than working in a mine.
But what LOOKS more dangerous? If you asked the average person on the street, what would they say is more dangerous? That's what determines the "risk premium". Men take jobs that are perceived to be high risk (of course they also take jobs that are high risk - nothing you posted rebuts the fact that men are far, far more likely to die on the job than women are.). Expecting people's assumptions about what's dangerous to match up with what is dangerous is silly. Taxi drivers are in more danger than most mining workers, and yet their pay isn't as good.

> We're asking for parity in experience, parity in pay

That's what you've got. There are laws in place which mean that if you see an issue like this, you can actually get the people responsible to lose large amounts of money. In situations where everything else is equal, gender is not a cause for lower wages. If it is, you can fix that in about a week.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed May 05, 2010 6:20 am

Miners actually have pretty poor wages, too, compared with construction workers.
There may be laws, but gosh darn, they aren't being followed.
-Crissa
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed May 05, 2010 6:21 am

> Zinegata wrote:

> > IGTN wrote:Almost all generic insults are slurs, scatological, or attacks on someone's intelligence. Sure, I can agree with that. That doesn't make using slurs right.

> I'm quoting this as a sample but I'm speaking in general terms that apply to everyone.
> Whatever happened to all of that "TGD is the deep end of the Internet" and "We'll do mean things to you. On the Internet".
> Honestly, all this whining about the use of "slurs" is baffling to me. Just two weeks ago the board pretty much lynched David A Hill when he posted here.
> And now we're talking about how it's not right to insult other people?
> It seems to me that th use of slurs isn't the issue at all. It's the use of slurs by people you don't like.
> Sounds like an awful lot of Den people are just being hypocrites, honestly.

No, Zine, we just have class. We like to keep it classy.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
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Vnonymous
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Post by Vnonymous » Wed May 05, 2010 7:54 am

> Crissa wrote:Miners actually have pretty poor wages, too, compared with construction workers.
> There may be laws, but gosh darn, they aren't being followed.
> -Crissa

What are you talking about? The law actually was being followed in that case.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed May 05, 2010 8:05 am

Oh, sure, the law, it was so studiously being followed that it took twenty years for her to discover the fact, and since she had never complained while she hadn't known, even the Supreme Court thought it was right.
It was a stupid decision. Which was rightly and quickly fixed by a Democratic Congress.
-Crissa
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Wed May 05, 2010 9:57 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:

> > Zinegata wrote:

> > > IGTN wrote:Almost all generic insults are slurs, scatological, or attacks on someone's intelligence. Sure, I can agree with that. That doesn't make using slurs right.

> > I'm quoting this as a sample but I'm speaking in general terms that apply to everyone.
> > Whatever happened to all of that "TGD is the deep end of the Internet" and "We'll do mean things to you. On the Internet".
> > Honestly, all this whining about the use of "slurs" is baffling to me. Just two weeks ago the board pretty much lynched David A Hill when he posted here.
> > And now we're talking about how it's not right to insult other people?
> > It seems to me that th use of slurs isn't the issue at all. It's the use of slurs by people you don't like.
> > Sounds like an awful lot of Den people are just being hypocrites, honestly.

> No, Zine, we just have class. We like to keep it classy.

"Classy" and "Deep end of the Internet" are not interchangeable terms .
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Vnonymous
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Post by Vnonymous » Wed May 05, 2010 10:47 am

> Crissa wrote:Oh, sure, the law, it was so studiously being followed that it took twenty years for her to discover the fact, and since she had never complained while she hadn't known, even the Supreme Court thought it was right.
> It was a stupid decision. Which was rightly and quickly fixed by a Democratic Congress.
> -Crissa

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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Wed May 05, 2010 12:32 pm

We like to pretend that TGD is the deep end of the Internet. In reality, we're all just as emotional, reactionary, and illogical as the rest of humanity. We're like bears wearing pants and playing house.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Wed May 05, 2010 1:28 pm

> CatharzGodfoot wrote: No, Zine, we just have class. We like to keep it classy.

Man, I wish I had time to dredge up the right macro for this. Because what the fuck else is there do to other than ?
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed May 05, 2010 2:09 pm

> mean_liar wrote:

> > CatharzGodfoot wrote: No, Zine, we just have class. We like to keep it classy.

> Man, I wish I had time to dredge up the right macro for this. Because what the fuck else is there do to other than ?

Oh yeah, Mean Liar, remember earlier when I get demanding that you motherfucking tell me which polite request?
And then you finally explained and I got distracted and didn't respond, so it's here:
The reason I kept harping on your for that polite request stuff is because you refused over and over to address my question and back up your assertion. Just like Crissa and Ganbare and Ceiling Cat. And that's annoying.
I assumed you were lying because you were avoiding answering the question and admitting you were wrong, which seemed to indicate you knew you were wrong.
The reason I wanted to harp that specific point is because:
NO REQUEST WAS EVER MADE OF ME AT ANY POINT!
And that's the problem. Everyone keeps carrying on as if the arbitrary stupid lies about what I said are true, even though no one can ever back up their lies. And it actually sways independent people too, like you, who don't have a dog in the race, but still end up believing that anyone ever asked me to do anything because people keep talking like I used those pronouns on purpose to hurt Ceiling Cat, even though that never occurred.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Wed May 05, 2010 3:53 pm

> Kaelik wrote:. And it actually sways independent people too, like you, who don't have a dog in the race, but still end up believing that anyone ever asked me to do anything because people keep talking like I used those pronouns on purpose to hurt Ceiling Cat, even though that never occurred.

I find people respond better when I apologize for accidentally offending someone and expressing myself poorly when that happens.
Seriously. I don't really know Ceilingcat very well, but if you had said to her "Sorry, I meant no offense" instead of going "I DIDN'T GOD DAMN FUCK SHITBALL PISS OFFEND CEILING CAT ON PURPOSE DAMN FUCK FART! I'M KAELIK AND I'M IN COLLEGE!" I'm sure she (and everyone else) would be chill about this issue. (And if she wasn't, she'd look like the idiot, not you).
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Wed May 05, 2010 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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Post by Kaelik » Wed May 05, 2010 3:57 pm

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I find people respond better when I apologize for accidentally offending someone and expressing myself poorly when that happens.
> Seriously. I don't really know Ceilingcat very well, but if you had said to her "Sorry, I meant no offense" instead of going "I DIDN'T GOD DAMN FUCK SHITBALL PISS OFFEND CEILING CAT ON PURPOSE DAMN FUCK FART! I'M KAELIK AND I'M IN COLLEGE!" I'm sure she (and everyone else) would be chill about this issue. (And if she wasn't, she'd look like the idiot, not you).

FYI, I'm not in college.
That aside, I tend to find not lying better than lying, so when someone for example, claims that I do X on purpose to offend them, I do not say "I'm sorry for doing X to offend you." I say "I didn't do that."
And if you really think "I'm sorry you were offended" would have made the situation better, then you really are naive.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Wed May 05, 2010 4:01 pm

> Kaelik wrote:The reason I kept harping on your for that polite request stuff is because you refused over and over to address my question and back up your assertion. Just like Crissa and Ganbare and Ceiling Cat. And that's annoying.
> I assumed you were lying because you were avoiding answering the question and admitting you were wrong, which seemed to indicate you knew you were wrong.

You stupid, pathetic, self-victimizing asshole. Do you have nothing better to do than find things to hate?
I made no assertions. I never said you did anything or didn't do anything. I wasn't wrong about anything because I had no stake in this, or anything. I just thought it would be nice to be nice.
I know that you take such things as personal attacks, because you are a whiny, insecure jerkoff, but actually, no, it wasn't a personal attack. It wasn't an assertion, it wasn't a statement of fact. It was just... "play nice".
You are so twisted and paper-thin that you take things like that as aspersions on your character. I can't help you with that. No one can.
Calling you out on your insane bullshit is fun though. It probably doesn't help your deplorable condition either, but it's definitely an assertion I can get behind.
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Josh_Kablack
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  Location: Online. duh

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Wed May 05, 2010 4:10 pm

> There are ...not many insults that aren't gendered

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50987
This being the internet, I fully expect to be called all of those.
And since I use my real name on the internet, I would think my preference for being referred to by male pronouns would be obvious. But I've grown to like "flap-rabbit" as well.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Wed May 05, 2010 4:27 pm

> Kaelik wrote:
> That aside, I tend to find not lying better than lying, so when someone for example, claims that I do X on purpose to offend them, I do not say "I'm sorry for doing X to offend you." I say "I didn't do that."
> And if you really think "I'm sorry you were offended" would have made the situation better, then you really are naive.

Neither of those was what I suggested saying. I suggested "I'm sorry, no offense was intended".
If you honestly weren't trying to offend Ceilingcat by calling her "he", then that's the truth, is it not?
And if you say that and everyone continues to bitch, then that makes them look bad, not you. Because let's face it, certain people are always going to bitch. And you and I have a similar reputation here; it's not like other people's bitching is going to make either of us look any worse than our own actions do already. Best to let it slide, you'll live longer.
(Seriously, ask any of the old-timers here. I'm pretty sure that most of them will agree that ten years ago, I was just like you. So take a good look kid, this is what you have to look forward to!)
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Wed May 05, 2010 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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