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Tokorona
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Tokorona » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:33 am

Sorry, typo. Was actually surprised to learn they weren't self reliant. Thought they were, since they wanted independence.
Carhtaz - here's a mention for you. IT may be a valid target for a military attack - except that would mean that Hezbollah has declared open war on Israel.. which means Israel is within it's rights to level the areas they attacked from....
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Xander77
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Xander77 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:44 pm

> Tokorona at [unixtime wrote:1155191630[/unixtime]]Sorry, typo. Was actually surprised to learn they weren't self reliant. Thought they were, since they wanted independence.

For a given level of "self reliant" which doesn't involve food, medicine and a working economy, they are.
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Crissa
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Crissa » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:04 pm

Yes, it's hard to be 'self reliant' when another government cuts you off from your olive trees. Or plows under your oranges. Or blocks the road to your market.
Or conficates all tax income for your government and holds it hostage because it does not like the result of your democratic elections.
Xander, try actually answering questions, instead of just tearing things apart. Then I might not just ignore you as a kook.
-Crissa
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Crissa
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Crissa » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:13 pm

From Google:

> Israeli airstrike kills dozens...

> Israeli airstrike kills 50...

> Israel air strike kills 35 civilians...

Tell me, what do apartment buildings and freeways have to do with rockets being fired hundreds of miles away? How many Isrealis have been killed this year?
-Crissa
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Tokorona
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Tokorona » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:20 pm

> Crissa wrote:
> Yes, it's hard to be 'self reliant' when another government cuts you off from your olive trees. Or plows under your oranges. Or blocks the road to your market.
> Or conficates all tax income for your government and holds it hostage because it does not like the result of your democratic elections.

Actually, the tax income that Isreal collects at it's checkpoints don't go to Hamas. They go toi the PA.. which has no collection stations. oops!
And since every nation has adrutly cut funding to Hamas, you can hardly blame Israel. Well, you can... but...
As for hte first part? I suppose they couldn't build it in areas that Israel never goes near now? Since it's quite clear they're going back to a secure footing.
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Tokorona
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Tokorona » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:24 pm

The fact is simple. Israel was attacked at a military target. That means Israel is at war. And in war, accidental civilian deaths aren't illegal. While deplorable, and heartbreaking... unavoidable.
And in response: How many Israel citizens have died due to suicide bombing and airstrikes, neh?
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Desdan_Mervolam
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:33 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1155240285[/unixtime]]Xander, try actually answering questions, instead of just tearing things apart. Then I might not just ignore you as a kook.

He has answered everything you've asked. The fact that his answers don't jive with your biased sources is irrelevant.
-Desan
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
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Xander77
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Xander77 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:34 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1155240285[/unixtime]]
> Xander, try actually answering questions, instead of just tearing things apart. Then I might not just ignore you as a kook.
> -Crissa

A) Umm...
Maybe we're using different definitions, but "ignoring me" actually means not talking to me. Asking me questions, repeating the same questions when I answer them, but ignoring the questions I ask you, isn't really ignoring me. It's certainly "kooky" behavior, I'll grant you that. Just not on my side.
B) Again. Try considering the way your words sound to someone else.
If your questions are so incorrectly worded, poorly phrased, ignorant about the facts of the situation and incoherently reptetetive that I keep "tearing them" apart, maybe the right thing to do isn't to boo-hoo about how meanly "kookily" I'm treating you, but to actually consider your questions before you ask them. Actually making something that vaguely resembles a point would be neat.
Oh, and you know, answering the questions you were asked. That would be plain awesome.
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Xander77
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Xander77 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:06 pm

> Tokorona at [unixtime wrote:1155241240[/unixtime]]
> As for hte first part? I suppose they couldn't build it in areas that Israel never goes near now? Since it's quite clear they're going back to a secure footing.

Umm... no. We're stupid for doing it. Those territories are ours. No other "real" entity is laying claim to them. So the goverment can take land, give land, whatever. But it should do so proudly, in the daylight, while giving proper compensations, or not at all.

> And in response: How many Israel citizens have died due to suicide bombing and airstrikes, neh?

No, no, no. We're not playing that game. We have a lot less people to trade. We're a lot less willing to die (seriously. Famous Arafat speech, about how the Palestinians are going to win because the Jews hold life sacred, while they consecrate Death.) And killing pawns and civilians doesn't actually accomplish anything. Destroying critical objects does. It's just that casualties are such a simple way to keep track of the score. And there are plenty of simple minds that don't realise it's the wrong score to keep.
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Crissa
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Crissa » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:41 pm

> Xander77 at [unixtime wrote:1155244003[/unixtime]]Umm... no. We're stupid for doing it. Those territories are ours. No other "real" entity is laying claim to them. So the goverment can take land, give land, whatever. But it should do so proudly, in the daylight, while giving proper compensations, or not at all.

Very true. And in truth, the fields pre-existed the walls and political footings - some of those trees are over a hundred years old - so it's kinda hard to 'build' these things around stuff that happens a century later.
See, what I'm doing is taking the opposing side in an argument. I'm pointing out facts and details not reported by the prior sources. My sources aren't biased, they're just reporting the news with details the Isreali sources lack.
The reason the PA doesn't get money right now is that Isreal has not delivered any since the last valid election. The fact that the US also isn't giving any money (owed, lent, or gift) shows a disrespect for democracy. The PA doesn't have toll booths because Isreali forces killed and destroyed all PA roadblocks for the last ten years. Who'd want that job?
If Isreal is willing to kill civillians willy-nilly, it's going to have to deal with fantatics who know that it doesn't matter if they're military or not; because Israel will kill them regardless.
If you held life sacred, you might not blow up apartment buildings hundreds of miles away from the fighting.
-Crissa
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Xander77
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Xander77 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:11 pm

..............................
You fell for my clever plan. 9^9^9 posts blasting your arguments to pieces - no response. Something that actually constitutes critisism of Israel - you're not longer ignoring me.
So... yeah, I don't think I'm going to invest any more effort into actually trying to communicate with you, since it's obvious that you have no desire to do so.
Edit - allow me to clarify.
Generally/Theoretically speaking, a discussion/argument goes somewhat like this:
Side A presents points, arguments, and facts.
Side B reacts to what side A side - confirming, denying, providing alternate explanations, and bringing up it's own points, arguments, etc.
Side A then reacts to what side B said.
This may be somewhat pointless, or leave both sides enlightened, depending on how the arguments goes, but... it's all good, and within parametres.
OTOH.
If side A presents it's arguments.
And side B reacts, and presents it's own points.
Following which, side A in no way reacts to side B's points, but proceeds to reiterate it's argument yet again, using somewhat different words.
And the whole thing repeats over and over and over.
Then, side A is obviously deficient in some manner. And there's no real way to establish communications.
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power_word_wedgie
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by power_word_wedgie » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:51 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1155246061[/unixtime]]See, what I'm doing is taking the opposing side in an argument. I'm pointing out facts and details not reported by the prior sources. My sources aren't biased, they're just reporting the news with details the Isreali sources lack.

The only problem is that from my last post the thing that came up was:
a) "Well, Hezbollah didn't claim to launch the rockets that attacked a military base back on May 28th of this year." Well true enough, Hizbollah didn't take claim that they conducted the rocketing, but I'm doubting that the kaytushka roocket attacks on May 28th was conducted by the Lebanese Ladies Auxiliary Club. If so, they probably should take up bridge like the rest of the world. Jus because someone isn't taking claim doesn't mean that they didn't do it.
b) "Well, those sources are biased for Israel. Besides, they didn't get the Hezbollah's response." Ok, show me an article for the May 28th attack that shows that it was conducted by someone else. I'll be more than happy to review it and change my opinion if information in the article warrant it.
c) "You're not hearing the liberal's response to these attacks." Well, in some degree, you are certainly right. Why is that the case. Because the main liberals in the US political parties (mainly in the Democratic party) are saying nothing on the subject. If anything, they're supporting Israel. Let me put it this way: are the liberal Democrats putting in near as much energy against the Israeli aggression as they are the Iraqi conflict? The answer is no.
Now on the stuff you did quote, highways have always been military targets. They're supply lines. You know how we got the concept of the interstate system? Eisenhower saw what Hitler (I know, I know ... Godwin's law) had done with the Autobahn system, and that was so that he could move his army and supply lines effectively.

> The reason the PA doesn't get money right now is that Isreal has not delivered any since the last valid election. The fact that the US also isn't giving any money (owed, lent, or gift) shows a disrespect for democracy.

The problem is that it wasn't only the US that was withholding funds, it was the EU as well. Why? What could have freed up the funds? All the Palestinian PM had to do is say, "We recognize the existance of Israel" and the money would have been pouring in. You see, you're right when you say that there are wounds on Hamas and Hezbollah - the only thing is that many of them are self-inflicted.
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Crissa
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Crissa » Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:45 am

Umm... What argument shot to pieces?
Where's the interviews of Hizbollah, or Lebonese civillians in your reports? Where's the numbers killed by Isreal in the wiki? Where's the lists of Isreali bombing targets, since there's a list of places hit by rocket attacks? Do you even understand the word biased?
You haven't refuted squat. Oh, yes, two months ago there was some fighting, so that perfectly excuses bombing some apartment buildings hundreds of miles away.
The problem wasn't...
...Wasn't what, exactly? It's 'okay' for Isreal to withhold funds that belong to the people of Palestine because of the US (excuse me, dig up an EU withhold, please?).
And it's perfectly okay for Isreal to continue shooting when only the US says it is okay?
They ELECTED the guy. Who are you to hold a democratic country hostage, and then blame the country for being upset? There were two candidates, one who supported Isreal, one who didn't. One candidate won, another lost.
*punch* Stop hitting yourself. *punch* Stop hitting yourself.
You guys are pathetic. You can't even manage a basic dialog, an argument, without going into insults.
-Crissa
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User3
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by User3 » Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:21 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1155278712[/unixtime]]...Wasn't what, exactly? It's 'okay' for Isreal to withhold funds that belong to the people of Palestine because of the US (excuse me, dig up an EU withhold, please?).

BAAM!
aljarezza.net (since all other media outlets must apparently be owned by Israel ...)
I'll get to the rest tonight after work.
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Crissa
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Crissa » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:16 pm

> Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1155313291[/unixtime]](since all other media outlets must apparently be owned by Israel ...)

Thank you for the link; I don't usually catch the BBC news.
And thank you for showing yourself unable to refrain from insults.
'Haha'
-Crissa
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Crissa
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Crissa » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:14 pm

So... What did the Lebonese civillians do to be attacked by Isreali forces?
Coming down the wire is news about a convoy of 1500 civillian cars guarded by the Lebonese military moving out of the Isreali occupied zone have been hit and destroyed for evacuating the fighting. (Dunno exact numbers, the live CNN person was just ordered to take cover by the Lebonese, though apparently they'd managed to evacuate the ambulatory civillians and wounded)
Reuters link
Please explain why this was needed when perhaps Isreal could have asked the UN to intervene - like every other nation is doing?
-Crissa
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Tokorona
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Tokorona » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:25 pm

BEcause the UN is useless. Seriously.

> 400 posts
> Knight
> Reply
> Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough
> Umm... What argument shot to pieces?
> Where's the interviews of Hizbollah, or Lebonese civillians in your reports? Where's the numbers killed by Isreal in the wiki? Where's the lists of Isreali bombing targets, since there's a list of places hit by rocket attacks? Do you even understand the word biased?

There's the reason for "since all other news outlets must be owned by Israel"
Note: It's also spelled : Israel.
Reading that gets this small gem -
They said the convoy that had left the town of Marjayoun earlier in the day was targeted by at least one drone near the village of Kefraya in eastern Lebanon
Um, yeah. As for the UN, Israel has no reason to trust a body hostile to it.
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Incarnadine
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Incarnadine » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:00 pm

K, folks. I've gotten multiple complaints. Please play nice with each other while the Fence Builder is away. If y'all won't play nice, either keep the personal attacks to the gaming topics or take them to e-mail.
*sigh* Thanks in advance, and I apologize for having to step in.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled Gaming Den.
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Crissa
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Crissa » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:50 am

Yes, a convoy started by Israeli forces, and then shot up by them.
Yes, the UN, the WHOLE WORLD is just against Israel, not because of any actions they have taken.
Where was the request to the EU to intervene, then? Where's the EU on the Israeli use of force today? Oh, with the UN?
You can't say that they're supported by the world (against Palestine) and then also say that they world is against them. [Sentence removed by Mod.]
-Crissa
I don't have spellcheck in my browser, sorry to offend your sensabilities.
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power_word_wedgie
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by power_word_wedgie » Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:26 am

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1155278712[/unixtime]]Umm... What argument shot to pieces?

Fair statement. Here is the portion of a previous quote that I was disputing with these articles:

> PS - Did the rockets start falling before Israeli forces were romping around the Lebonese contryside? The answer is no.

Well, the answer is yes, and that's all I was trying to say. I'm not saying that Israel has a moral upground on this - I think that both Hizbollah and Israel have pretty shaky morals on this one.
Now it sounds like from a previous quote that the BBC would be acceptable as a source without being too biased. Fair enough.
BBC dated 2002 on Hizbollah rocket firing
Hizbollah have been firing rockets into Israel for several days. Israel has responded with artillery fire - and there are fears the conflict could escalate.
BBC 2005 Article
A fourth rocket hit the town of Shlomi.
Lebanese police said at least seven rockets had been launched from Lebanese territory.
Two were fired from the western sector, 20km (12 miles) south-east of Tyre, and five others from the eastern sector on Adaisa hill, they added.
The above actually has Lebanese saying, "Yeah, the rockets came from Lebanon."

> Where's the interviews of Hizbollah, or Lebonese civillians in your reports? Where's the numbers killed by Isreal in the wiki? Where's the lists of Isreali bombing targets, since there's a list of places hit by rocket attacks? Do you even understand the word biased?

Ok, I think that we can agree that not all media is biased towards Israel. Thus, can you show an article about this May 28th attack that is from the opposite biased side? As I said previously, I'd be more than willing to read it. And actually, the article did list the Israeli bombing targets:
The air force raided two bases of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC), while Israel angrily announced it would lodge a complaint with the United Nations.
Israeli fighter bombers swooped several times to fire 15 missiles at a base in Sultan Yaacub in eastern Lebanon, less than 10 kilometres (six miles) from the border with Syria, causing the casualties, police said.
They then targeted a base in Naameh, some 10 kilometres south of the Lebanese capital, that comprises a network of underground tunnels and has been the target of several past Israeli air strikes.
The bombing of the base, located near the busy highway linking Beirut to southern Lebanon, triggered traffic jams and panic among motorists, police said.

> You haven't refuted squat. Oh, yes, two months ago there was some fighting, so that perfectly excuses bombing some apartment buildings hundreds of miles away.

I refuting the notion that there weren't rocket firings into Israel prior to their latest incursion. That was the point.

> ...Wasn't what, exactly? It's 'okay' for Isreal to withhold funds that belong to the people of Palestine because of the US (excuse me, dig up an EU withhold, please?).

Ok, I've already refuted this one.

> And it's perfectly okay for Isreal to continue shooting when only the US says it is okay?

Well, NOW there is a resolution put forward to cease the hostilities. It looks like Israel and Lebanon will abide ... now it's up to Hizbollah.

> They ELECTED the guy. Who are you to hold a democratic country hostage, and then blame the country for being upset? There were two candidates, one who supported Isreal, one who didn't. One candidate won, another lost.

Yes, policies may be made by the party in power, but that doesn't mean that:
1) If there is something that the minority party doesn't agree to, then they should just keep their mouths quiet. Heck, as the opposition, this is the time when you should be most vocal about policies that you don't agree with. However, it been pretty quiet from the Democratic party. And as I quoted previously in articles, most liberal Democrats (Schumer and Kerry to name a few) have made comments supportive of Israel. (And the comment "If an article noting a quote from a someone in senior Democrat leadership position criticizing Israel can be found, I'd be more than happy to read it" still stands ...)
2) You vote for supporting Israel in this conflict. That's what many Democrats did by voting 410-8 on a resolution to support Israel in this conflict.
After all, you don't vote for somebody that says, "I'll fight for you in Congress - unless we're the minority party in which I'll vote for the majority all the time and keep my mouth quiet, even if it is something that I think is morally wrong."
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Xander77
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Xander77 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:38 am

> power_word_wedgie at [unixtime wrote:1155356814[/unixtime]]
> After all, you don't vote for somebody that says, "I'll fight for you in Congress - unless we're the minority party in which I'll vote for the majority all the time and keep my mouth quiet, even if it is something that I think is morally wrong."

Actually, we have people arguing that that's exactly the right thing to do. Can't divide a nation during a time of war and all.
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power_word_wedgie
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by power_word_wedgie » Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:51 am

I'd agree to that, but in our war (Iraq), the same people are doing the exact opposite. The Democrats are complaining about the actions taken by the Bush administration in Iraq and that we need to get out immediately. You can't have it both ways: you can't argue against a war that you country is actively in and then on the other side of your mouth say that you can't criticise a war that you're not actively in due to the concern of dividing a nation in a time of war.
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Xander77
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Xander77 » Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:55 pm

It appears to be over.
Anyone care to volunteer their opinion on who won and what's the score?
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Falgund
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Falgund » Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:09 pm

Grim Reaper 1 - 0 Humanity
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Crissa
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### Re: We're not talking about 'the war' enough

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Post by Crissa » Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:48 pm

PWW, while you quote rockets falling on settlements... Those weren't Israeli territory. Also, you don't answer the question on whether there were Israeli incursions into Lebanon/Palestine at the time, or prior.
'You can't have it both ways'

> you can't argue against a war that you country is actively in and then on the other side of your mouth say that you can't criticise a war that you're not actively in

Actually... Could you find that quote? That sounds like Liberman.
Or maybe once again you're picking and choosing, as the opposition party isn't going to be well represented by the controlling party media (Fox, etc)
-Crissa
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