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## Adventure pathing: Your thoughts?

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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:20 am

> TOZ wrote:A magazine of random adventures, where you have to buy multiple issues to complete a set?
> I can't see how it could support a company.

There was some interesting discussion about magazines vs. books when Paizo stopped publishing Dragon/Dungeon and started publishing Rise of the Runelords. Particularly how publishing a magazine kind of sucks for various reasons (e.g. old magazines get pulped after a certain date).
Of course, they could still publish a module anthology every month that would be a magazine in all but name.
I'm trying to remember what their stated rationale was for going from publishing a $10 monthly magazine to a $20 monthly series of books. I'm almost certain it wasn't "we want more money", although that's the obvious one.
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TOZ
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Post by TOZ » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:05 am

I want to say it has to do with the periodicals market and the trouble in establishing a name in it, as opposed to publishing a book. I don't recall.
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:11 am

> TOZ wrote:A magazine of random adventures, where you have to buy multiple issues to complete a set?
> I can't see how it could support a company.

If I weren't familiar with your posting history, I'd think you were deliberately misreading me. Either that or lacking in reading comprehension.
But just to be clear, the adventures would all be part of different adventure paths, staggered so that there is always one beginning and one ending in each issue.
EDIT: Okay, you got me with the facetiousness. One point goes to TOZ.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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A Man In Black
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Post by A Man In Black » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:13 am

> hogarth wrote:I'm trying to remember what their stated rationale was for going from publishing a $10 monthly magazine to a $20 monthly series of books. I'm almost certain it wasn't "we want more money", although that's the obvious one.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that's what it was. For all their game design faults, Paizo is pretty upfront about "We do this so we can make money and stay in business." If I recall correctly, they mentioned why they don't do a magazine format any more in passing in a discussion of why they discontinue old APs.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:57 pm

> K wrote:I probably shouldn't complain. Used copies of Paizo's newest AP are around $11.00 on Amazon, so paying the $19.99 cover price is the fanboy-only price.... and the pages are so very glossy.

> K wrote:Though to be honest, filling those pages with more sandbox or just raw adventure and less useless fluff would create a vastly superior product, they obviously don't feel the need to create a better product. I don't know why, considering how easy it is to write adventures.

Judging from the first quote, it looks like you're willing to pay $66 for an adventure path's worth of content, so it certainly wouldn't make any sense for Paizo to price it at anything lower than that level to get you as a customer.
Personally, I can't justify paying US$120 for a 6 part adventure path that's 30%+ filler. I can't even justify paying US$84 (the subscription price, which doesn't include delivery). The right price point for me is about CDN $40-$50, perhaps (since that's what I paid for the Shackled City hardcover). But I fully acknowledge that lowering the price to that level might not maximize Paizo's revenue, so I don't worry about it.
What does tick me off is their PDF pricing policy. Why on God's green earth should it cost just as much to buy the PDFs as it does to buy physical copies of the books through a subscription? That's just insulting.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:14 pm

> hogarth wrote:What does tick me off is their PDF pricing policy. Why on God's green earth should it cost just as much to buy the PDFs as it does to buy physical copies of the books through a subscription? That's just insulting.

If I recall, publishers need to print a certain minimum of books so that they can get the bulk discount to sell them as cheap as they do. They're likely worried that selling the PDFs for less than the books would mean their book sales would be hurt enough that they can't sell more than that minimum without having to worry about the cost in storing leftover stock.
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K
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Post by K » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:21 pm

> hogarth wrote:

> > K wrote:I probably shouldn't complain. Used copies of Paizo's newest AP are around $11.00 on Amazon, so paying the $19.99 cover price is the fanboy-only price.... and the pages are so very glossy.

> > K wrote:Though to be honest, filling those pages with more sandbox or just raw adventure and less useless fluff would create a vastly superior product, they obviously don't feel the need to create a better product. I don't know why, considering how easy it is to write adventures.

> Judging from the first quote, it looks like you're willing to pay $66 for an adventure path's worth of content, so it certainly wouldn't make any sense for Paizo to price it at anything lower than that level to get you as a customer.
> Personally, I can't justify paying US$120 for a 6 part adventure path that's 30%+ filler. I can't even justify paying US$84 (the subscription price, which doesn't include delivery). The right price point for me is about CDN $40-$50, perhaps (since that's what I paid for the Shackled City hardcover). But I fully acknowledge that lowering the price to that level might not maximize Paizo's revenue, so I don't worry about it.
> What does tick me off is their PDF pricing policy. Why on God's green earth should it cost just as much to buy the PDFs as it does to buy physical copies of the books through a subscription? That's just insulting.

Oh, I'll never buy a whole path again. I might snipe $12-24 worth of adventures, but Paizo is fail on low-level adventures.
And Paizo gets no part of the secondary book market, so it's not like I'm supporting them.
But yeh, their PDF policy is retarded.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:25 pm

> K wrote: Oh, I'll never buy a whole path again. I might snipe $12-24 worth of adventures, but Paizo is fail on low-level adventures.

See? You're benefiting from the fact they break their adventure paths into individual segments.
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K
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Post by K » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:37 pm

> hogarth wrote:

> > K wrote: Oh, I'll never buy a whole path again. I might snipe $12-24 worth of adventures, but Paizo is fail on low-level adventures.

> See? You're benefiting from the fact they break their adventure paths into individual segments.

LOL. I'd benefit more if I could just pay 12.00 for an AP.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:24 pm

> A Man In Black wrote:

> > hogarth wrote:I'm trying to remember what their stated rationale was for going from publishing a $10 monthly magazine to a $20 monthly series of books. I'm almost certain it wasn't "we want more money", although that's the obvious one.

> Actually, I'm pretty sure that's what it was. For all their game design faults, Paizo is pretty upfront about "We do this so we can make money and stay in business." If I recall correctly, they mentioned why they don't do a magazine format any more in passing in a discussion of why they discontinue old APs.

Coincidentally, someone linked to an old discussion on the topic:
Way Overpriced for Same Material (as Dungeon mag)
Short version:
-The magazine business sucks, especially for a brand new magazine.
-Without advertisers, we have to charge quite a bit more to make money.
Last edited by hogarth on Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:46 pm

Yeah, every cent of advertisement goes straight into their pocket, while it takes two cents of customer money to put a cent in their pocket (or more, but that's about the median)
The PDF policy is insulting. The PDF doesn't have a publisher, distributor, retailer taking (needing) cuts from the price. You should either get the book for free when you buy a PDF or vice versa. Getting a PDF for free when you buy a book would be fine, too.
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TOZ
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Post by TOZ » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:39 pm

> NineInchNall wrote:EDIT: Okay, you got me with the facetiousness. One point goes to TOZ.

My bad, had trouble picking out a smiley for it. But yeah, turning Dungeon magazine into a D&D booster pack would probably work stupidly well, if Magic is any indicator.
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Parthenon
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Post by Parthenon » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:03 pm

> hogarth wrote:What does tick me off is their PDF pricing policy. Why on God's green earth should it cost just as much to buy the PDFs as it does to buy physical copies of the books through a subscription? That's just insulting.

I get what you mean, but I think you're overestimating the cost of printing, which is relatively cheap. Some estimates from local printers can be as little as $1 per print. The actual value will vary based on who you talk to, but from what I've heard, "80-90% of the cover price of a book has nothing to do with the paper and ink object you buy in a shop".
You still need writers, editors, artists, layout, publisher and so on. The only difference is in not actually printing it out, but you also have to make sure it works on a number of devices. Hell, print layout to ebook layout (not pdf because pdf sucks) is probably going to cost nearly the difference. So I can see a 10% reduction, but thats about it.
So in effect you're paying an 11% or so increase in order to not have to carry around another book, use the same book on multiple devices and keep a backup. Its not great, but they might be making an extra dollar or so. Which if you compare to the amount of filler that goes in it is nothing.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:02 pm

> Parthenon wrote:

> > hogarth wrote:What does tick me off is their PDF pricing policy. Why on God's green earth should it cost just as much to buy the PDFs as it does to buy physical copies of the books through a subscription? That's just insulting.

> I get what you mean, but I think you're overestimating the cost of printing, which is relatively cheap. Some estimates from local printers can be as little as $1 per print. The actual value will vary based on who you talk to, but from what I've heard, "80-90% of the cover price of a book has nothing to do with the paper and ink object you buy in a shop".
> You still need writers, editors, artists, layout, publisher and so on. The only difference is in not actually printing it out, but you also have to make sure it works on a number of devices. Hell, print layout to ebook layout (not pdf because pdf sucks) is probably going to cost nearly the difference. So I can see a 10% reduction, but thats about it.
> So in effect you're paying an 11% or so increase in order to not have to carry around another book, use the same book on multiple devices and keep a backup. Its not great, but they might be making an extra dollar or so. Which if you compare to the amount of filler that goes in it is nothing.

If Paizo can make a decent profit by sending a book from the printers in China, to their distributers in the U.S., to an Amazon warehouse in Canada, to my house for $15, I find it inconceivable that they can't make a profit sending me a PDF directly for less than $14, even if I commit to buying all 6 installments through a subscription.
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PoliteNewb
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Post by PoliteNewb » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:04 pm

> Parthenon wrote: You still need writers, editors, artists, layout, publisher and so on. The only difference is in not actually printing it out, but you also have to make sure it works on a number of devices. Hell, print layout to ebook layout (not pdf because pdf sucks) is probably going to cost nearly the difference. So I can see a 10% reduction, but thats about it.

You're also losing the retailer markup, since you can sell electronic copies direct. What's the usual markup up on game books?
Also, bit of an aside, why does PDF suck? I have all my D&D books on PDF, and I'm generally pretty happy with them.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:17 am

> PoliteNewb wrote:
> Also, bit of an aside, why does PDF suck? I have all my D&D books on PDF, and I'm generally pretty happy with them.

I think he's saying they suck for an e-book reader (which I don't have).
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:29 am

Usual markup is 10-15% for retailers. Generally it's the same or higher for distributers; though retailers like Wal-Mart, Borders, Amazon, etc generally give a portion of their cut to the customer and keep the distributer's portion instead.
Printing is probably $3-15, depending upon binding and numbers.
It's still insulting.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:58 am

That $1 print is for a 100,000 word, no illustrations, paperback novel. And you'll note: it's still an outlay of $10,000 just to start up. Printing actual RPG books is more. They are coffee table sized and have pictures and graphs.
The kind of book listed there is 288 tiny pages, an RPG book is much larger and gets the same word count into 120 pages even with pictures and shit.
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adamjury
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Post by adamjury » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:09 am

> Crissa wrote:Usual markup is 10-15% for retailers. Generally it's the same or higher for distributers; though retailers like Wal-Mart, Borders, Amazon, etc generally give a portion of their cut to the customer and keep the distributer's portion instead.

This is not accurate at all for hobby games. The amount of discount on the MSRPG a retailer gets varies depending on a bunch of factors, but "in the mid 40s" is a good enough ballpark.
That means for a $50 book, a retailer would pay the distributor $27.50, roughly.
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Post by Username17 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:33 am

> adamjury wrote:

> > Crissa wrote:Usual markup is 10-15% for retailers. Generally it's the same or higher for distributers; though retailers like Wal-Mart, Borders, Amazon, etc generally give a portion of their cut to the customer and keep the distributer's portion instead.

> This is not accurate at all for hobby games. The amount of discount on the MSRPG a retailer gets varies depending on a bunch of factors, but "in the mid 40s" is a good enough ballpark.
> That means for a $50 book, a retailer would pay the distributor $27.50, roughly.

To a first approximation, you can get an idea of about what things are selling to distributors for (which is all the really matters to the publishing company) by looking at Amazon. Their markup is very small- classically they make about as much actual mark-up money selling a set of D&D core books as the local game store makes selling a dice set.
So take that $69 price tag for the three books, knock off a couple of dollars for Amazon profit and a couple dollars for WotC to ship it to Amazon in the first place - and that's about what WotC is getting for sending the books to a distributor. Which looks like $60. Actual take home would have to subtract production costs, printing costs, and operating costs, but it's a decent baseline.
Amazon isn't really in the business of making money, it's in a business of subsidizing literacy. /and because of that, you can derive a fair amount of information about how the back end of the industry works from their front end. So for example: Amazon's price for Shadowrun's Vice is $18, which means it probably goes to distributors for $15 or so.
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adamjury
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Post by adamjury » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:41 am

I'd knock a couple bucks off that estimate.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:54 am

Only the best stuff got 40%, which was like dice sets or miniatures or cards. Games and comics the store generally has to pay 85%.
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adamjury
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Post by adamjury » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:59 am

Let's put it this way: Catalyst recently changed their retailer terms so retailers get a 3% less discount. The emails from Alliance announcing this used this phrase and numbers:
"Due to a change in carrying costs, Alliance will be adjusting the discount on all Catalyst Game Labs products. Effective immediately, Catalyst products will be available at a retailer's current discount tier minus 3 points. (For example, a 47% tier would purchase Catalyst at 44% off of the retail price.)"
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:04 am

Let's put it this way: I don't know any store to have gotten that much in decades. Shippinh, credit, and general lack of purchasing power by retailers have pushed many a hole in the wall game store to the bone.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:31 am

> adamjury wrote:I'd knock a couple bucks off that estimate.

As I understand it, you have to ship the goods to the distributor on your own dime, so sure.
However, one thing I see over and over again when people are talking abut how narrow the margins are making games is counting costs twice. You see someone jump in to count the printing costs against the production costs and then count that against the profits on each book (sales minus printing costs). Which counts the printing costs twice. I've seen people count corporate taxes on gross sales to show that the total profits are zero (which would by definition have zero dollars in corporate tax). If you count shipping costs in with the costs, you don't subtract it from the sales value to the distributor.
Amazon's Gross Profit Margin is 20%. So for an 18 dollar book sale, they bought it for 15 dollars. Net profit is lower than that, because they have expenses related to running their own storefront.
Now, the company who sold them a book for $15 doesn't have 15 dollars of profit or anything like that. They had to pay out for printing and shipping, and running their own office and all that. But it's not as bleak as the naysayers claim or anything like it.
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