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## After Sundown tweaks/house rules

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:02 am

How about Conan style wizardry?
a handful of exploding powder, or throwing a snake at a dude, or throwing a scorpion at a guy, or calling animals to attack people.
So the magic is in having the objects at hand, not coming out of your hand.
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Omegonthesane
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Post by Omegonthesane » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:42 am

Or an explicit assumption of a brewing montage followed by a pseudo-Vancian mechanic of "this is how much you can prepare per day on negligible resources, but you're making it on the cheap so it rots within 18+2d6 hours". At least, that's the only way Vancian could be reconciled with witch's brew to me.
Though, oWoD sorcerers could do much the same hanging one (shitty) spell per Willpower for quick release after long casting.

> Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

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Post by Lokathor » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:08 pm

> Spells that you can get off in combat time are rare, to the point that when people use them it generally doesn't even look like "magic". It looks like superhero fiction.

I'm totally cool with that. If Harry Potter, Negima, The Sorcerer's Apprentice and the like are so far between that you have to look to superhero fiction that's fine. I love superhero fiction too.
I mean everyone is drawing from the same magic power pool in the first place; so it's already a little bit strange that Witches and Animates know the same spells when they know spells.
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Post by Username17 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:25 pm

> Lokathor wrote:

> > Spells that you can get off in combat time are rare, to the point that when people use them it generally doesn't even look like "magic". It looks like superhero fiction.

> I'm totally cool with that. If Harry Potter, Negima, The Sorcerer's Apprentice and the like are so far between that you have to look to superhero fiction that's fine. I love superhero fiction too.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. 90% of the magic Harry Potter characters use take longer than 12 seconds to cast, and most of the magic that the Gryffindors use is literally potions. I admit that I've never seen the Sorcerer's Apprentice or Negima, but a quick youtube search for Negima spells showed some blond girl named "Vampire Evangelion" (seriously?) spending 23 seconds casting something that seems to be called "cosmic catastrophe". I don't know if the wizards in that make potions or anything, but they certainly don't seem to be examples of bullet-time spellcasting.
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Post by codeGlaze » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:47 pm

I like the idea of bending-style casting. (Avatar)
I could even see it being applicable to light/caster, medium/mixed, heavy/full-frontal fighting.
I'm NOT saying that it should be the only kind of casting (since it's very blasty by nature) but it's definitely how I like to envision a lot of magic now.
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Post by hyzmarca » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:51 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote: but a quick youtube search for Negima spells showed some blond girl named "Vampire Evangelion" (seriously?) spending 23 seconds casting something that seems to be called "cosmic catastrophe". I don't know if the wizards in that make potions or anything, but they certainly don't seem to be examples of bullet-time spellcasting.

That would be Evangeline McDowell, who is a vampire.
Casting times in Negima vary considerably, from near-instantaneous to minutes long.
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Post by Heath Robinson » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:58 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:I admit that I've never seen the Sorcerer's Apprentice or Negima, but a quick youtube search for Negima spells showed some blond girl named "Vampire Evangelion" (seriously?) spending 23 seconds casting something that seems to be called "cosmic catastrophe". I don't know if the wizards in that make potions or anything, but they certainly don't seem to be examples of bullet-time spellcasting.

Cosmic catastrophe sounds like one of Evangeline's game ending nukes, which tend to take setup. The average spell is (silently) cast (without hand gestures, using a ring-shaped magical focus) fast enough that you could cast it between blows in a shounen battle manga martial arts duel. Which is exactly what they do.
I'd call Negima an invalid reference for After Sundown because it's a shounen battle manga focused on martial arts duels and it has a lot of science fantasy material including magical robots (one houses a full blown magical AGI), magical (flying) battleships, magical time travel, magical firearms (including a magical gattling gun), and a magical laser sat. The epiloque talks about terraforming Mars and building space elevators.
Negima's about as useful a reference for AS as Nanoha.
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Post by Chamomile » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:18 pm

Concerning Sorcerer's Apprentice, while it does indeed focus strongly on instant-cast magic (the only spell that seems to take longer than two seconds to take effect is the big bad's game ending raise all the dead in the world spell at the end), it's also considered to be a pretty bad movie. Most people didn't like it and even if it was simply okay, it's one movie. It doesn't represent a significant chunk of the canon of pop culture magic.
Harry Potter, however, does, since it was an international phenomenon, and I find Frank's assertion that most of the magic used is potions to be bizarre. I can remember a grand total of three major plot points where the main characters used potions: The polyjuice potion used in the second and seventh books, and the felix felicis used in the sixth. I'm sure I'm missing a couple (and I know there's another time a potion comes up in the sixth book when a love potion gets used on Ron, it's just not the main characters doing it), but the average comes out to about one or two potions used per book. On the other hand, casual uses of spells like alohomora, locomotor mortis, expelliarmus, and all three of the unforgivable curses are very common both in and out of combat (in the seventh book, the unforgivable curses become basically utility spells, despite being some of the most powerful and forbidden magic in existence). Casting a patronus takes only seconds of effort and is possibly the single most narratively significant spell in the books. Some magical effects, like floo powder, require you to take the time to purchase materials and get to a certain location, but once you have them it's basically instantaneous. I hardly think of two magical effects per book that takes longer than 12 seconds to cast, let alone 90%.
Last edited by Chamomile on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Omegonthesane
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Post by Omegonthesane » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:27 pm

Harry Potter is not horror material. NEXT!
I'm not even being completely facetious here, it's a children's fantasy at heart even if it's well written. A morality play where good triumphs over evil due to its inherent virtue resulting in inherent magical powers rather than due to having bigger guns, bigger batteries, or bigger whatever.
All that said, combat-time magic seems to be the standard for gaming, and AS is a game rather than a horror movie. So presumably the witch's brew is best handled as a Ritual.
Last edited by Omegonthesane on Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:08 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:I don't even know what you're trying to say here. 90% of the magic Harry Potter characters use take longer than 12 seconds to cast, and most of the magic that the Gryffindors use is literally potions.

How are you measuring this, and what things do you count and not count as magic?
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Post by Lokathor » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:01 am

Okay, well I guess I won't respond to everything but I'll say these things:
1) I said go with Frank's version for the 2nd Edition and I still stand by that opinion because it's an ideal default level of customization. It's enough to see that custom Witches are encouraged and can easily exist, and it's also enough that there's a clear structure as to what's going on with Witches. That way, people that want to have more customization in their games can easily go do that, and those that want things to be more structured can just have more powers be pre-picked. Everyone wins.
In general, I personally think that it's best when game systems pull back the curtain just a tiny bit and let you see what design decisions are being made where.
2) In terms of what can and can't be looked at for sources of magic, I don't think that the tone of a work and the way it's structured with regards to a particular plot necessarily make the entire setting invalid as a source for things that players might want to do in a game about being a magic using monster. I mean, After Sundown will always be a horror game because of the fact that there's zombie invasions and no cops except corrupt ones and people that eat people are supposed to be able to get away with it all the time and they might even be your allies or even friends. And on other days, you just get sucked into a hellplane for 20 years at a time.
Anything brought into After Sundown will end up being the horrible form of the thing and will end up being in a horror setting. So it doesn't matter too much if you bring in a magic power from a children's book full of plot holes, or a Nick Cage movie that was honestly really stupid, or a magic fighting anime disguised as a harem anime, or even something else entirely like Last Airbender. What you have to be careful about is, of course, new magics that reshape the setting's metagame. You don't really want to add new ways to teleport, though maybe something like a "Fire" version of Shadow Walk where you step from flame to flame might be appropriate. You don't really want to add new ways for the dead to come back to life or unlife, but maybe if you say "yeah it's a once per century deal just go with it for this adventure" it's okay to have a weird resurrection ritual happen even after they burned the body. Things like that.
3) Frank, I'm not clear. Is the problem that magic powers elsewhere need to be Combat Time to be imported into After Sundown as magic powers? Mesmerism takes 1 Minute to use, and Baali get that. Summon Spirit doesn't even have a time listed for how long it takes to use or for the spirit to show up, but the Khaibit get that. It seems fine to add more "longer than a complex action but still pretty quick to cast" spells. Or adding more ritual length spells like Reanimate and Bitter Fruit.
I wasn't saying that no one should have ritual magic or anything like that, I just honestly don't care about "evil potions" being a big thing. It's not cool to me. Mesmerism is cool to me, as is Thaumaturgical Forensics. Potions aren't really.
Last edited by Lokathor on Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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erik
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Post by erik » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:32 am

> Lokathor wrote: I wasn't saying that no one should have ritual magic or anything like that, I just honestly don't care about "evil potions" being a big thing. It's not cool to me. Mesmerism is cool to me, as is Thaumaturgical Forensics. Potions aren't really.

Yeah. Potions are thematic staples but in a game they aren't very exciting or fun.
I'm sad for Khaibit witches that it looks like they're losing Thaumaturgical Forensics. That schtick is about as fun as having zombies.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:02 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:So how's this?
> - Baali: Command, Aura Perception, Cloud Memory
> - Dryad: Bitter Fruit, Aura Perception, Telepathy
> - Khaibit: Summon Spirits, Aura Perception, Reanimate
> And then every character gets 4 Basics and an Advanced that come from:
> - Baali: Discernment, Authority, Any Infernal Sorcery
> - Dryad: Discernment, Veil, Any Astral Sorcery
> - Khaibit: Discernment, Fortitude, Any Orphic Sorcery
> Does that seem open enough? Too open?
> -Username17

That looks good to me.

I also think that the game might benefit from partially tying weaknesses to power source (with just a few exceptions too keep the scholars arguing):
Infernals are weakened by water (except were-rats, which are weakened by sunlight, and maybe Fallen weakened by alcohol). (Other Infernals: Fallen, Baali, Androids, Hollow, Daeva.)
Orphics are weakened by sunlight (except Frankensteins, which are weakened by alcohol, and maybe Werecats weakened by water). (Other Orphics: Strigoi, Khaibit, Troglodytes, Reborn.)
Astrals are weakened by alcohol (except Nosferatu, which are weakened by sunlight, and maybe Verbena weakened by water). (Other Astrals: Deep ones, Werewolves, Icharids, Golems.)

As far as feeding schedules for lycanthropes, I think a pretty good argument could be made for giving one of them a Feeding schedule.

Finally, three vampire types is realistically a good limit. I'd be happy with just one. Even with the thematic variation of 'aristocratic snake vampires', 'flying bat vampires', and 'scary spider vampires', they end up feeling very similar.
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Post by Lokathor » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:19 am

> erik wrote:I'm sad for Khaibit witches that it looks like they're losing Thaumaturgical Forensics. That schtick is about as fun as having zombies.

Keep in mind you could still pick it, you don't don't always have it all the time just for existing.

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:I also think that the game might benefit from partially tying weaknesses to power source (with just a few exceptions too keep the scholars arguing)

This is... extremely compelling, and should at least be a sidebar "Rules Option" thing like they have in the DMG and stuff, if not the official rule.

> Finally, three vampire types is realistically a good limit. I'd be happy with just one. Even with the thematic variation of 'aristocratic snake vampires', 'flying bat vampires', and 'scary spider vampires', they end up feeling very similar.

I dunno, they've all got Fortitude as their "core discipline", as well as all sharing Gift of Health, Vigor, and Restoration on top of that. With 5/8th of the automatic powers being the same for every single vampire of course they're going to start to feel the same. I think that if you shake that up a bit you can get some more distinction going. The only power that vampires really need to always have is Patience Of The Mountains. Everything else is kinda optional. I could imagine, for example, a vampire without the ability to spend blood points and restore itself (Angel can't do this in Buffy).
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Post by erik » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:44 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote: That looks good to me.

Forgot to mention, but ditto. Customizable witches by power source seems better than locking in so many powers since they are so specific. [edit2: The more I look at it tho, I think this gives away too much of the powers that make Witch identity.]

> CatharzGodfoot wrote: I also think that the game might benefit from partially tying weaknesses to power source (with just a few exceptions too keep the scholars arguing):
> Infernals are weakened by water (except were-rats, which are weakened by sunlight, and maybe Fallen weakened by alcohol). (Other Infernals: Fallen, Baali, Androids, Hollow, Daeva.)
> Orphics are weakened by sunlight (except Frankensteins, which are weakened by alcohol, and maybe Werecats weakened by water). (Other Orphics: Strigoi, Khaibit, Troglodytes, Reborn.)
> Astrals are weakened by alcohol (except Nosferatu, which are weakened by sunlight, and maybe Verbena weakened by water). (Other Astrals: Deep ones, Werewolves, Icharids, Golems.)

I like this. Mostly.
I can't think of any stories with Reborn having trouble with sunlight. Water neither, mind you for the old method.
I'm glad you brought it up since I was bugged by Dryads being debuffed by water. Heck, Dryads imply needing water for their power-ritual to even work. I could see Alcohol being the bane of both Dryads and Reborn. Plants don't like straight alcohol (generally), and drinking could cloud past memories. Drinking to forget your past life seems solid.

> Lokathor wrote:

> > erik wrote:I'm sad for Khaibit witches that it looks like they're losing Thaumaturgical Forensics. That schtick is about as fun as having zombies.

> Keep in mind you could still pick it, you don't don't always have it all the time just for existing.

Yeah, I had a brain failure and thought it was an Infernal path and thus out of bounds. Oops.
Last edited by erik on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:04 am

> I'm glad you brought it up since I was bugged by Dryads being debuffed by water.

[img]data:image/jpeg;base64, [/img]
[img]data:image/jpeg;base64, [/img]
Water is in fact the preferred method of neutralizing Witches in folklore. Weird perhaps, but there it is.
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Last edited by Username17 on Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:58 pm

I think people are just have a hard time giving the plant theme a backseat to the witch theme.
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Omegonthesane
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Post by Omegonthesane » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:33 pm

I was under the impression that in the latter case water was being used to check for witches rather than to defeat them - on the logic that witches are unholy and thus cannot enter water because... um... Middle Ages Christianity!

> Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

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Post by Username17 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:44 pm

> Omegonthesane wrote:I was under the impression that in the latter case water was being used to check for witches rather than to defeat them - on the logic that witches are unholy and thus cannot enter water because... um... Middle Ages Christianity!

Middle Ages Christianity doesn't make a lot of sense, and what exactly is supposed to happen to a Witch when you dunk her in water varies from story to story. Having her lose her powers for a period of time is not a terribly unusual version.
I mean, there are also versions where they actually repulse the water and don't get wet, allowing you to detect for sure that they are Witches. But I don't think that such a story is incompatible with Witches losing their power if they did get wet. Probably just force them to activate Water Prison to avoid excessive moisture.
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Post by codeGlaze » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:20 pm

I was under the impression that witches just wouldn't drown.
Last edited by codeGlaze on Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RobbyPants » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:52 pm

> codeGlaze wrote:I was under the impression that witches just wouldn't drown.

I've heard that before, too. If the woman was a witch, she'd float like a duck and need to be executed. If not, she drown, and since she wasn't a witch, didn't need to be executed. Of course, she'd be dead.
I don't know how common these tests were, of if this is more of an urban legend. In practice, I thought they'd torture the suspect to coerce confessions out of them, and to get them to name co-conspirators.
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Post by name_here » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:40 pm

There was also a thing, at least during the Salem trials, where pleading guilty and naming other witches got some degree of leniency, while pleading not guilty got you executed and your property seized. Not entering a plea got you crushed to death by stones, but your property went to your heirs.

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Post by Chamomile » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:18 pm

> name_here wrote:There was also a thing, at least during the Salem trials, where pleading guilty and naming other witches got some degree of leniency, while pleading not guilty got you executed and your property seized. Not entering a plea got you crushed to death by stones, but your property went to your heirs.

Although that last one was just a loophole exploited by an auto-didactic lawyer with infinite willpower.
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Post by Username17 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:11 pm

The dunking chairs are inconsistent with people who believe that Witches have any special power to float. Whether you're buoyant or not, you're still tied to the damn chair. They really do just dunk you in and (presumably) pull you up again to force you to be baptized (thereby taking away your devil power) and torture you into confessing.
It's barbaric, but there's no "damned if you do, damned if you don't" part. At least, not with the dunking chairs. Although it's surely possible that if you refused to confess long enough they'd hold you under water until you died.
In any case, none of this is in any way biblical or consistent. All the Witch stuff is pretty much completely ad hoc and invented on the spot to frighten people and/or get people punished or killed. I only brought it up to show that yes indeed there is a rich history of Witches getting harmed and/or depowered by water.
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Post by Lokathor » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:30 pm

Well, but devil power witches would map most closely to Infernal Witches. Any they're using black fire to get power, so it makes sense that water snuffs that out.
An Orphic Witch might also be vulnerable to water, just because, but an Astral Witch can make an easy claim to at least not being specially vulnerable to water because they're using water as their magic in the first place.
So if it's 100% based on subtype only, then sure Witches are depowered by water, but once you split it up by power source or even just make any deviations at all (eg: Galatea being depowered by Sunlight) then you should probably make Astral Witches have a different depowering (probably Alcohol because it makes your dreams become too crazy and you can't focus magic any more).
Last edited by Lokathor on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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