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Grek
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Post by Grek » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:19 pm

What group do Dr. West and Dr. Frankenstien fall into? Child of Ether does not seem to fit them but neither does Reborn or Fallen.

> FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.

> Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.

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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:24 pm

They're necromancers just like Joseph Curwin. Charles Dexter Ward is, of course, reborn--an interesting case where the reborn and original (Necromancer) are alive at the same time.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
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zeruslord
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Post by zeruslord » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:31 pm

I thought Dr. Frankenstein fell into the group of Luminaries who create Prometheans.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:34 pm

So maybe I should have spoken up about this earlier, but I pretty much find the entire idea of Devotions offensive.
It makes character building more complicated, and causes a glut of advanced disciplines. If you ever intend to make Elder level playable, the number of devotions goes to crazytown.
And I'm not at all convinced it does anything god conceptually. Sure, in the ideal cases the Devotions would really seem to be necessarily dependent on the pre-requisites, but I suspect many abilities will get slated in as devotions that would have been fine as regular disciplines. That's a shame, because it takes 3 slots to get from zero to devotion and only 1-2 to get normal disciplines. This makes cool powers more difficult to get--which *could* be a good design goal, except it does so in a random and class-based way.
Some Characters will start with both prerequisites for a devotion from their class, others with neither. If devotions are particularly desirable those will be extremely tempting for the class to pick up, and difficult to get to from nowhere. And if the devotions are nothing special, why are they so hard to get?
This could work if the devotions people have access to matched up with what we expect from their class, but they don't. If Flight is potence/celerity then Children of Ether have easier access than Reborn, which seems backwards. I don't remember the other writeups right now, but I suspect all Lycans will have easy access (when flying lycans should be rare) and comparable fewer Vampires (for whom it's fairly common).
Personally I would much rather simply add more abilities to existing disciplines -- have three powers at each tier if you want.
But if you must use Devotion, here's what I recommend: Re-do every class write-up to structure it around devotions.
Take each class's most signature abilities: War Form for Lycans, Body Hive for Mi-Go, etc., make them devotions, and thereby put them behind a small wall from the other classes -- then assign them to discipline combos based on which basic disciplines the classes need.
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Quantumboost
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Post by Quantumboost » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:38 pm

Characters like Herbert West and Dr. Frankenstein should definitely be Luminaries who just happen to have ways to create Promethians. West's reanimations are pretty much Frankenstein Prometheans - they're made from corpses empowered with necromantic power, but aren't zombies (they don't hunger for the brains of the living or anything).
I mean, we already have the merely Luminary scientist who creates a transformative serum, so Luminaries are at least capable of creating Supernaturals. It would be, essentially, a ritual which requires a bunch of fancy equipment and preparation - whereas actual Supernatural necromancers (Khaibit or otherwise) would have the ability to raise corpses as zombies where they lie.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:59 pm

OK, so West and Frankenstein are 'luminary scientists' (NPC type along with Hunters and their ilk) because they don't have much in the way of abilities and need special equipment. Curwin is a necromancer (killbit or vampire) because he can carry around jars of "essential salts" to call up or put down the dead with magic words, has night vision, has mummy skin, and possibly drinks blood.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:00 pm

> Boolean wrote: And if the devotions are nothing special, why are they so hard to get?

There's a bunch of stuff in WoD that people might want to have that really doesn't fit anywhere and should be pretty rare. Flesh Crafting is cool. It's even sort of an iconic World of Darkness power - but it's too weird to be something that falls on people in any normal discipline. At no time should people need to take Flesh Craft in order to qualify for anything, because the chances of any particular player wanting it for their character conception is really low.
Putting them off to the side as Devotions satisfies the minority who want the power and the majority who don't. Not an incredibly elegant solution, but it has worked in White Wolf's past. Flesh of Marble didn't break the game or the story - it seemed to fit in pretty darn well as a Protean/Resilience (or Protean/Fortitude for oWoD) Devotion.

> Boolean wrote:This could work if the devotions people have access to matched up with what we expect from their class, but they don't.

This is actually a good idea. While most Devotions really could show up on fucking anyone (like the Zone of Truth effect or the Healing Touch), some of them do seem to lend themselves to one group or another. Assuming for the moment that we want Vampires to have the option to easily fly around under their own power - we'd swap Flight over to Potence/Fortitude.
But again, I think Flight makes sense as a Devotion, because while there are some people who quite adamantly want to fly around, most creatures in the setting simply do not do that.
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Last edited by Username17 on Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:06 pm

Why not just make Flesh Crafting a third intermediate Protean Discipline?
EDIT: Also if you're using devotions, then Protean as a discipline can fuck right off. The abilities in there have little thematic connection to each and the devotion mechanic encourages werewolves and Draculesque vampires to acquire a whole host of shapeshifting abilities, when generalized shapeshifters are actually pretty rare.
Split those abilities up and put them where people who need them can get them.
War Form is a Potence/Celerity discipline, so lycans can get it easily.
Crawler Form (bats, rats) could be Obfuscate/Fortitude or somthing for sneaky vamps.
A Generalized "Animal Form" should really be astral sorcery. So should Earth meld for that matter.
Face Sculpting can be Obfuscate/Fortitude, etc.
Last edited by Orion on Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:23 pm

> Boolean wrote:Also if you're using devotions, then Protean as a discipline can fuck right off.

This is a terrifying but probably accurate assessment. Fuck.
I'm going to spend some time drawing lines on blank paper.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:38 pm

A full list of everything Frank's done so far should probably be consolidated somewhere. Here are all of the playable monsters I could find (with place holders):
Lycanthropes: The Apocalyptic
The Get of Fenris
The better to eat you with, my dear.
Werewolves have a Dianic power source.

- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Beast Form (Basic Protean)
- Body Weaponry (Basic Protean)
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
- Quickness (Basic Celerity)
- Feral Whispers (Basic Animalism)
- War Form (Intermediate Protean)
- The Beckoning (Intermediate Animalism)

The Nezumi: Plague on the world of Men
“Tear him up.”
Nezumi have an Infernal power source.

- Abyss of the Body (Basic Descent of Entropy)
- Beast Form (Basic Protean)
- Body Weaponry (Basic Protean)
- Hide From Notice (Basic Obfuscate)
- Quickness (Basic Celerity)
- Feral Whispers (Basic Animalism)
- Vanish From the Mind's Eye (Intermediate Obfuscate)
- The Beckoning (Intermediate Animalism)

The Bagheera: The Lady or the Tiger
“You can fool everybody, but landie. Dearie me, you can't fool a cat. They seem to know who's not right.”
Bagheera have a Death power source.

- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Beast Form (Basic Protean)
- Body Weaponry (Basic Protean)
- Hide From Notice (Basic Obfuscate)
- Quickness (Basic Celerity)
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
- War Form (Intermediate Protean)
- Alacrity (Intermediate Celerity)

Leviathans: The Ancient Fear
The Deep Ones: Scions of Dagon
“Those horrible eyes. Unblinking and inhuman, twas like looking at fish more than a man.”
According to legend, Dagon was spawned when Tiamat mated with the Tigris River. He was a powerful and fish-like creature, and his progeny all carry fish traits about their being. Hailing from the oceans, a Deep One gradually becomes scaled and gilled as he ages. His eyes flatten and rarely blink, and the lure of the sea becomes harder to ignore. There are few who can stomach long departures from the coast, for in their mind they can always listen for the strange whispered yet incessant call of the ocean.
Deep Ones can breathe water as easily as air. The strange whispers they hear in their own minds can also be shared with anyone foolish enough to look a Deep One in their strangely opaque eyes.
A Deep One has an Astral power source and a Lunar power schedule.

- Deep One Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Auspex -
- Aura Perception (Basic Auspex)
- Heightened Senses (Basic Auspex)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Body Weaponry (Basic Protean)
- Patience of the Mountain (Basic Fortitude)
- Command (Basic Dominate)
- Rising Mists (Basic Chasing the Storm)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Telepathy (Advanced Auspex)
- Conditioning (Advanced Dominate)

The Mi Go: The Larvae of Echidna
“There can never be good for the bee which is bad for the hive.”
A Mi Go has an Infernal power source and a Lunar power schedule.

- Mi Go Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Swarm Song -
- Small Witness (Basic Swarm Song)
- Body Colony (Basic Swarm Song)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Body Weaponry (Basic Protean)
- Nimble Feet (Basic Celerity)
- Awe (Basic Presence)
- Dark Sight (Basic Auspex)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Telepathy (Advanced Auspex)
- Magnify the Swarm (Advanced Swarm Song)

Troglodytes: The Lurkers Beneath
...That being the case, let's consider a similar startup package for being a Troglodyte:

- Body Weaponry (Basic Protean)
- Heightened Senses (Basic Auspex)
- Aura Perception (Basic Auspex)
- Shadow Play (Basic Obtenebration)
- Hide From Notice (Basic Obfuscation)
- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Earth Meld (Intermediate Protean)
- Spirit's Touch (Intermediate Auspex)

Vampires: The Masquerading
The Ventrue
“A weapon you don't have in your hand will not kill a snake.”
A Ventrue has an Orphic power source and a Feeding power schedule.

- Ventrue Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Fortitude -
- Patience of the Mountains (Basic Fortitude)
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Tongue of the Serpent (Basic Lure of Shadows)
- Blood Bondage (Basic Path of Blood)
- Mesmerism (Basic Dominate)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Restoration (Advanced Fortitude)
- Indomitably (Advanced Fortitude)

...So here's a Daeva

- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Fire Walking (Basic Walk of Flame)
- Blood Bondage (Basic Path of Blood)
- Awe (Basic Presence)
- Patience of the Mountains (Basic Fortitude)
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
- Restoration (Intermediate Fortitude)
- Indomitably (Intermediate Fortitude)

The Nosferatu
And the Nosferatu would look like this:

- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Feral Whispers (Basic Animalism)
- Blood Bondage (Basic Path of Blood)
- Hide From Notice (Basic Obfuscate)
- Patience of the Mountains (Basic Fortitude)
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
- Restoration (Intermediate Fortitude)
- Indomitably (Intermediate Fortitude)

Mages: The Ascending
The Khaibit Tradition
“There are far worse things awaiting man than death.”
The Khaibit Witch has an Orphic power source and a Ritual power schedule.

- Khaibit Starting Disciplines
  “There are far worse things awaiting man than death.”
  - Core Discipline: Necromancy -
- Summon Spirit (Basic Necromancy)
- Compel Spirits (Basic Necromancy)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Aura Perception (Basic Auspex)
- Eyes of Night (Basic Obtenebration)
- Tongue of the Serpent (Basic Lure of Shadows)
- Thaumaturgical Forensics (Basic Path of Blood)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Solid Darkness (Advanced Obtenebration)
- Reanimate (Advanced Necromancy)

Witches: The Faustian Bargain
Druids???: The Burning People Alive To Make The Plants Happy???

Prometheans: The Created
Frankensteins: The Creature
“My heart was fashioned to be susceptible of love and sympathy, and when wrenched by misery to vice and hatred, it did not endure the violence of the change without torture such as you cannot even imagine.”
Frankensteins are crafted to be literally new living things. They are essentially people, albeit designed rather than evolved. Unfortunately, the creators of these new creatures almost never take to their assumed role as parent, because the Frankenstein is never truly a baby and never truly a human. Propelled into existence with a grown human's size and facilities, they nonetheless suffer from having missed the opportunities to be juvenile.
Like a man who has been inducted as a child soldier or a woman married at first blood, a Frankenstein's life will always have deeply painful emotional issues. They will always be childlike in some aspects of their existence, even if they live to be hundreds of years old.
A Frankenstein has a Death power source and a Continuous power schedule.

- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Feat of Strength (Basic Potence)
- Nimble Feet (Basic Celerity)
- Dread Gaze (Basic Presence)
- Patience of the Mountains (Basic Fortitude)
- Heightened Senses (Basic Auspex)
- Devastation (Intermediate Potence)
- Quicken Sight (Intermediate Celerity)

Story Inspiration: Frankenstein, Pinocchio, Edward Scissorhands, Subject Two, Herbert West: Reanimator
Androids: The Uncanny Valley
Golems: Unwilling Slaves

Transhumans: Point of No Return
“Think before you decide, I tell you! Do you want to be left as you are, or do you want your eyes and your soul to be blasted by a sight that would stagger the devil himself?”
Knowledge and power do not come without a price, especially in the World of Darkness. When one steps upon the path to power it is not long before the realization strikes that the person on that path is not the same person who took the first steps.
The Reborn: Second Chances and Second Guesses
“Put your helmet on. I wouldn't want to scar your pretty face. Again.”
Reincarnation totally happens in the World of Darkness. Not to everyone, not even to most people. But to some people. For whatever reason, only Luminaries can access past lives, and even then past lives only become accessible when they are exposed to great stress in the presence of magic.
A Reborn has an Orphic power source and a Continuous power schedule.

- Reborn Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Celerity -
- Quickness (Basic Celerity)
- Nimble Feet (Basic Celerity)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Second Senses (Basic Auspex)
- Summon Spirits (Basic Necromancy)
- Awe (Basic Presence)
- Shadow Play (Basic Obtenebration)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Quicken Sight (Advanced Celerity)
- Spirit's Touch (Advanced Auspex)

Story Inspiration: She, The Mummy
The Children of Ether:
“There are things man was not meant to know. It is interesting that we repeatedly seek to know as much about these as possible. ”
Humanity’s greatest survival trait, indeed the one which has ensured our ascent to power, is a willingness to improve upon our environment – the closest environment being our own flesh and bones. The desire to gain greater abilities overwhelms all else sometimes, even personal ethics, self-preservation, and basic sanity. Man is first and foremost a tool using creature, but when he treats himself as a tool, is he still a man?
The Children of Aether are born when a Luminary is subject to the (nominally successful) experiments of scientists and practitioners of medicine to improve the human form beyond what it already has – and usually, this Luminary is both subject and creator of the experiment. They rarely have any familiarity or experience with the supernatural beforehand, and simply stumble through the veil of normality by “accident.” The transformational event bestows efficiency and power on the human form and mind that brings it beyond mortal limitations, including impressive strength and will – at the cost of sanity and self.
A Child of Ether has an Astral power source and a Ritual power schedule.

- Child of Ether Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Obfuscation -
- Hide From Notice (Basic Obfuscation)
- Mask of a Thousand Faces (Basic Obfuscation)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Second Senses (Basic Auspex)
- Nimble Feet (Basic Celerity)
- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Touch of Shadow (Advanced Obfuscation)
- Vanish From the Mind's Eye (Advanced Obfuscation)

Story Inspiration: The Invisible Man, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, Norman Osbourne
The Fallen: ???

Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:21 pm

I think there was a disciplines list on the fallen thread. Here's what I can remember (for now without Protean):
Physical
[*]Auspex
[*]Celerity
[*]Dominate
[*]Fortitude
[*]Obfuscate
[*]Potence
[*]Presence
[*]Path of Blood
Sorcery
[*]Necromancy (Gloom)
Possibly Sorcery
[*]Animalism (Wilds)
[*]Chasing the Storm (Wilds)
[*]Swarm Song (Limbo)
[*]Walk of Flame (Limbo)
[*]Lure of Shadows (Gloom)
[*]Obtenebration (Gloom)
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:42 pm

Here's how things look without Protean for lycanthropy:

Lycanthropy: Ruled by Rage
A man may live for forty years, and a wolf only seven. But at the end of their lives, which one knows more of the tundra?
The man and the wolf know the same.
Lycanthropy is a disease that passes from lycanthropes to people that are nearly killed at their jaws. All that is necessary to become a lycanthrope is to be bitten, nearly die, and yet survive the ordeal. It's like rabies. Only your heart has to stop at least for a little while.
Once afflicted, a newly created Lycanthrope will find their wounds closing rapidly. The essentially deadly injuries suffered in the initial attack heal without leaving a scar or discoloration to mark their passing. The victim will feel feverish to the touch and chilled in the chest – a condition which will follow them until the end of their days.
Lycanthropic Culture: There really isn't any ancient lycanthrope culture. For the vast majority of time a lycanthrope would come into being only by surviving an attack by another lycanthrope. As such, most lycanthropes came into the world with their creator either defeated or hostile. The vast majority of lycanthropes either learned the ins and outs of their condition on their own or had it explained to them by someone else in the know (usually another supernatural). So it is quite common for lycanthropes to be adapted into the cultures of other supernatural creatures. A werewolf who was taken in by gypsy witches would generally have the same traditions and prejudices as those gypsy witches, not those of whatever werewolf tore into him with its fangs and left him for dead.
An exception to that generalization can be found in small family groups. Lycanthropes often go all crazy with rage and are a severe danger to their families and friends. A loved one pushed nearly to death by the rampages of a wererat is rather likely to spurn the creature which transformed it, running off and ultimately forming a new “culture” of one. However it is not unheard of for such a victim to stay on and create a pack of lycanthropes. These groups tend to avoid contact with humans and supernaturals alike and have strange views.

- Therianthropes? Fuck that noise! It is important to note that the word “lycanthrope” literally comes from Greek words for “wolf” and “form” but that it is an English word which means a human who transforms into a wolf or other beast. Many people will try to get you to use the word “Therianthrope” or “Zoanthrope” because of a misguided attempt to use Greek root words correctly. Those words are however not English, and using them is not “technically correct” it is retarded. The plural of Octopus is “Octopuses” and not “Oktopodes” like it would be if we were speaking Greek, because if you are reading this document the chances are excellent that you are not an ancient Greek.

The Get of Fenris
The better to eat you with, my dear.
Somewhere in the howling wilderness of Scandinavia a “wolf warrior” of the North became darkly fused with a wolf pelt he was wearing while fighting the Huns – an event which places the creation of the Werewolf at approximately 600 CE. Passed from warrior to enemy warrior and conquered victims, the curse spread throughout the lands of Europe and beyond along the warpaths of the Huns and later the Vikings. In later nights, it spread itself throughout the world on the backs of European conquistadors and imperial marines.
Werewolves are instilled with a love of combat and destruction even in their human forms. In their monstrous forms they take the shape of awkwardly toothy man-wolves. Glistening with drool and usually fast covered with speckles of blood, the claws and fangs of a monstrous formed werewolf are a terror.
Werewolves have an Astral power source and a Lunar power schedule.

- Werewolf Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Potence -
- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Feat of Strength (Basic Potence)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
- Feral Whispers (Basic Animalism)
- Quickness (Basic Celerity)
- Dread Gaze (Basic Presence)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- War Form (Celerity / Potence Devotion)
- The Beckoning (Advanced Animalism)

Story Inspiration: Larry Talbot, Ginger Snaps, Dog Soldiers
The Nezumi: Plague on the world of Men
“Tear him up.”
The most frequently told story of the origins of the plague of the Nezumi is that originally someone turned their back on the teachings of the Buddha and was cursed with reincarnating in a lower form during their own life. If even partially true, this would mean that the plague started no earlier than about 500 BCE. Once afflicted, a Nezumi Lycanthrope begins to twitch their nose like Elizabeth Montgomery and click their tongues nervously.
A Nezumi's animal form is that of a large rat. Nezumi are immune to the effects of diseases, but carry virtually every disease they come into contact with. Unlike other lycanthropes, Nezumi in have no monstrous war form. While Nezumi lack the brutal jaws or rending claws of other lycanthropes, their bites are still often quite deadly because of the pestilence they carry.
A Nezumi has an Infernal power source and a Lunar power schedule.

- Nezumi Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Animalism -
- Beast Form (Basic Animalism)
- Feral Whispers (Basic Animalism)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Abyss of the Body (Basic Descent of Entropy)
- Hide From Notice (Basic Obfuscate)
- Quickness (Basic Celerity)
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Vanish From the Mind's Eye (Advanced Obfuscate)
- The Beckoning (Advanced Animalism)

Story Inspiration: Willard, Torment
The Bagheera: The Lady or the Tiger
“You can fool everybody, but landie. Dearie me, you can't fool a cat. They seem to know who's not right.”
The origins of the Bagheera are confused. The legends say that the Bagheera were formed when a Bengali priestess refused to abandon her gods and goddesses when the Mughals took control of the province and banned idolatry, calling upon Shiva for a mighty boon. And yet the legends also say that the Bagheera were formed first by a jaguar warrior pledged to Huitzilopochtli fighting against Cortez, an event which would necessarily push the formation of the line over fifty years back. When consulted on the subject directly, the Stellar Oracles enigmatically state that both stories are true. Regardless, once infected a Bagheera is a creature of Death and finds that her mere presence alarms and angers animals of all types, especially cats.
A Bagheera's War Form is that of great and ghostly cat. Perhaps a tiger, jaguar, or leopard.
A Bagheera has an Orphic power source and a Lunar power schedule.

- Bagheera Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Celerity -
- Quickness (Basic Celerity)
- Nimble Feet (Basic Celerity)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Hide From Notice (Basic Obfuscate)
- Touch of Darkness (Basic Lure of Destruction)
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- War Form (Celerity / Potence Devotion)
- Alacrity (Advanced Celerity)

Story Inspiration: Cat People, The Cat and the Canary

Seems to work pretty well. And while I'm at it, here's the impact on the Troglodytes:

The Troglodytes: Progeny of Drakaina
“Thousands of years we have toiled beneath the Earth. We will not stop just because shiftless Eloi tell us we must.”
The ancient tablets speak of Drakaina, Tiamat's heir by the Euphrates. A terrible worm creature living deep in the soil, her descendants carry always her pallor and disdain for the sun. The eyes of a Troglodyte darken until they are naught but obsidian orbs in their pallid sockets. The fingernails of a Troglodyte grow rapidly and hard, and without constant hygiene they form into claws.
Troglodytes see in darkness perfectly and can even read in the total absence of light. However, their blackened eyes are light sensitive, and bright flashes can easily blind a Troglodyte.
A Troglodyte has an Orphic power source and a Continuous power schedule.

- Troglodyte Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Auspex -
- Aura Perception (Basic Auspex)
- Second Senses (Basic Auspex)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Touch of Darkness (Basic Lure of Destruction)
- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Shadow Play (Basic Obtenebration)
- Hide From Notice (Basic Obfuscation)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Spirit's Touch (Advanced Auspex)
- Earth Meld (Obfuscation / Potence Devotion)

Story Inspiration: Mole People, Morlocks, The Hills Have Eyes

I had Animalism pegged as an Astral Sorcery. Dividing the world into:
Physicals(7):
Auspex
Celerity
Dominate
Fortitude
Obfuscation
Potence
Presence
Astral Sorcery (5):
Animalism
Chasing the Storm
Dance of Thorns
Trail of Tears
Veil of Morpheus
Infernal Sorcery (5):
Descent of Entropy
Names of the Blasphemies
Progress of Glass
Swarm Song
Walk of Flame
Orphic Sorcery (4)
Lure of Destruction
Necromancy
Obtenebration
Path of Blood

Form of Mist goes to Elder Chasing the Storm; Beast Form goes to Animalism; War Form goes to a Potence/Celerity Devotion; Earth Meld goes to a Potence/Obfuscate Devotion; magic claws goes to Lure of Destruction; and the Protean Discipline vanishes into the ether.
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IB90
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Post by IB90 » Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:06 am

This is probably a stupid comment, but if this ever becomes a pdf, you may want to include a sidebar about animal forms. For example, someone who wants to play a white werewolf has a slight chance of creating an inappropriate character. Someone who wants to play a white weretiger or werelion has a pretty good chance of creating an inappropriate character. This is more of a gut instinct than anything else.
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TavishArtair
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Post by TavishArtair » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:39 am

Just to be disruptive, I kind of feel Earth Meld (a largely defensive power, it basically makes you harder to kill by turning you into the local earth), a maneuver that has often been suggested to have restorative properties in the fiction where characters possess it... seems like a Fortitude-linked power.
I'm not making the Potence connection, at least.
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Starmaker
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Post by Starmaker » Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:32 pm

> Judging__Eagle wrote: Other creatures get their own weaknesses. Fey getting iron and fire seems appropriate; devils having silver and salt; undead having wood and alcohol (water?).

Fey can't have a weakness to fire because they live in the DR and are probably busy starting fires while on the Prime Material.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:18 pm

You're right. Undead weakened by fire; and Fey by Alcohol is a better fit.
I was thinking in terms of where the idea of "fey" came from, people that lived in the forest, and were genocided by people who used fire and iron to kill them.
Using alcohol on primitive forest people is actually a much better fit. In fact, it's a commonly occuring thing, and has been a part of stories like the Odyessy, where the cyclops (Ogre) gets drunk (weakened); and then blinded.
Undead burning in fire is something that most people will agree to.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 6:03 am

> IB90 wrote:This is probably a stupid comment, but if this ever becomes a pdf, you may want to include a sidebar about animal forms. For example, someone who wants to play a white werewolf has a slight chance of creating an inappropriate character. Someone who wants to play a white weretiger or werelion has a pretty good chance of creating an inappropriate character. This is more of a gut instinct than anything else.

In the era of globalization you could totally be savaged by an Indian woman in leopard form no matter where you personally come from or what color your skin happens to be. White dudes can catch tigerism.

> TA wrote:Just to be disruptive, I kind of feel Earth Meld (a largely defensive power, it basically makes you harder to kill by turning you into the local earth), a maneuver that has often been suggested to have restorative properties in the fiction where characters possess it... seems like a Fortitude-linked power.
> I'm not making the Potence connection, at least.

Really? I think of digging when I think Earth Meld. And that practically screams Potence to me.

> JE wrote:Undead burning in fire is something that most people will agree to.

But the Daeva are undead and they are fire immune. I think weakening in sunlight is a better fit than weakening in fire.

> JE wrote:Using alcohol on primitive forest people is actually a much better fit. In fact, it's a commonly occuring thing, and has been a part of stories like the Odyessy, where the cyclops (Ogre) gets drunk (weakened); and then blinded.

This is a very good point.
Alcohol and Sunlight seem like solid choices. The third option is harder thogh. Seriously, it could be anything from Sacred Ground to knotted grass.
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IB90
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Post by IB90 » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:18 am

I'm sorry, but I wasn't clear. I don't care about race. I meant to say that I think having players turn into white tigers and the like could be a bad idea, since those animals are not traditionally associate with horror.
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:46 am

I'm going to stick with salt.
It's a pretty civilized, and often holy, substance. Supernaturals tend to eat many things that don't involve cooking (and thus salt), or don't need to eat at all. Salt could be a representation of the normal consumption of food by humans. Supernaturals do not eat like humans, and salt is thus anthema to them.
It's also the traditional preservative that humans used to use. Preserving food is something that Supernaturals probably never need to do. They can probably get their 'meals' almost whenever, and wherever, by preying on normal humans or their environment. While normal people need to plan out their food supply months and months in advance.
It's also pretty ubiquitous, and rocksalt loaded shotguns is a pretty cool idea for a "de-buff" weapon.
IB90 is talking about, "wierd" cats, right? Stuff that isn't normally scary?
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Draco_Argentum » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:19 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:In the era of globalization you could totally be savaged by an Indian woman in leopard form no matter where you personally come from or what color your skin happens to be. White dudes can catch tigerism.

Hes talking about the tiger form having white fur. I'm not going to agree with the objection though.
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Korwin
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Post by Korwin » Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:19 am

Salt:

> Judging__Eagle wrote: They can probably get their 'meals' almost whenever, and wherever, by preying on normal humans or their environment.

You would need clear guidelines, when is the Salt in pure enough form (or quantity) to be a problem for the Supernaturals.
IMHO the mortals shouldnt be save, because he is in the Tropics or an Sauna.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:12 pm

Oh, I'm talking about salt crystals, and/or maybe dissolved in water.
So... a person that eats salt doesn't count. But a salt-shaker, or brine (pickling, a civilized, and thus non-supernatural, substance) will have an effect.
Raw salt having the fullest actual effect (but has obvious placement problems, since you have to pour it on the ground, or it will be shaken off of a creature if you just throw it at them), brine half of that, and anything else with large amounts of salt (saurkraut, soy sauce, oyster sauce, salted fish) would have only the slightest effects.
So, raw, mixed to make brine, stuff that is high in salt.
People need beyond lethal amounts of salt to even approach the "high in salt" area, so humans are never immune just from their diet.
The sauna I'm fine with being a haven from the supernatural. It's a very artifical and created environment. Sweat lodges, Saunas and Turkish baths all being places that ward out the supernatural is odd, but something that I'm fine with. Maybe that's why people created them? As places that they could conspire and plan, without fear of local supernaturals inflitrating their society?
Also, for werewolves, I had this idea for "when" they can infect others.
Whenever a moon dog occurs. Now, I've only ever seen one moon dog ever in my life, and they're pretty rare, but I think that it's a good way to make were wolves rare. Full moons is still also good.
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Post by Starmaker » Mon Jun 29, 2009 11:14 pm

> Judging__Eagle wrote:Also, for werewolves, I had this idea for "when" they can infect others.

If your intention here is to prevent The Shadow Over The Sun, then it's already established only Luminaries can become werewolves. If we scratched that (I didn't notice though), then yes, a restriction is necessary.

> Judging__Eagle wrote:Whenever a moon dog occurs. Now, I've only ever seen one moon dog ever in my life, and they're pretty rare, but I think that it's a good way to make were wolves rare. Full moons is still also good.

And red moons.
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Post by Username17 » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:57 pm

Preventing the Shadow Over the Sun is important, but I don't think time related provisions really help. If August 5th is unlimited spawn creation day, then there will still be unlimited spawn created because a fair number of these guys are immortal and see an arbitrarily large number of August 5ths. The limits to what can be done should vary unfortunately, but that's probably workable.
Zombies: Zombies spawn limitlessly if they keep killing people. Even extras. As long as well don't take soulless rats seriously, that's kind of self limiting in that zombies controls are limited. So the explosion of rampaging zombies becomes something that people have to fight against. Because it's not useful as anything other than a biological weapon, it doesn't unbalance the game to allow zombies to explode shadow over the sun style (so long as it's human bodies and not something retarded like sacks of zombie crickets being made).
Lycanthropes: Unlike zombies, werewolves are individually bad ass. And they are sapient. So even if you had no way to control the new lycanthropes it would still break the game if you could just bite random people and turn them into werewolves in any controlled fashion. So straight up it has to be something like "everyone who gets bitten and dies stays dead unless they were already a Luminary, where they rise as a lycanthrope."
Leviathan: Being able to have "limitless" tribes of cannibal retard babies by the expedient of actually having sex with ladies and raising them yourself, while potentially quite frightening in a game with immortals in it, is pretty much the same power that everyone else has. So I'll allow it. So the luminary kids of leviathan just become more leviathan. The extra children can either become filthy monstrous mutants or normal human carriers of the leviathan taint.
Vampires: Ooooh boy. Vampires not only want to grab luminaries and convert them into more vampires in their bloodline by murdering them and bringing them back, they also want to use their Blood Bondage power to turn normal people and even dogs and ravens into ghouls. They want to murder extras and bring them back as crappy spawn vampires. That's... problematic. Probably the best bet there is to put hard limits on the number of ghouled and vampiric spawn that a character could keep up. Making more would require revoking the power investment from one of the old ones. So Dracula gets his creepy and beastial vampiric brides but not a vampire army.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:10 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote: Vampires: Ooooh boy. Vampires not only want to grab luminaries and convert them into more vampires in their bloodline by murdering them and bringing them back, they also want to use their Blood Bondage power to turn normal people and even dogs and ravens into ghouls. They want to murder extras and bring them back as crappy spawn vampires. That's... problematic. Probably the best bet there is to put hard limits on the number of ghouled and vampiric spawn that a character could keep up. Making more would require revoking the power investment from one of the old ones. So Dracula gets his creepy and beastial vampiric brides but not a vampire army.

The 'ghoul' solution is actually pretty elegant: You can maintain as many servitors as you can feed from your own blood points. If you have too many, they either stop being your ghouls, starve, or go crazy and attack you to get your delicious vampire blood. If you've got servitors through Dominate or Animalism, you're spending blood points to maintain those as well.
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