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## Cheese Updates, 3.5

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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Book
  Apprentice
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Book » Mon May 15, 2006 7:23 pm

References to my name? Oh, *those* books! Gotcha.
Otherworldly Feat = PGtF
Kelvezu monster = MM2 or FF (can't recall)
Wraithstrike and Heroics spells = Spell Compendium
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fbmf
  The Great Fence Builder
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by fbmf » Mon May 15, 2006 7:25 pm

Where is Apprentice (Magician Training) from?
Game On,
fbmf
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Username17
  Serious Badass
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Username17 » Mon May 15, 2006 7:54 pm

> fbmf at [unixtime wrote:1147721111[/unixtime]]Where is Apprentice (Magician Training) from?
> Game On,
> fbmf

DMG II, page 176. Actually it's called "Apprentice (Spellcaster)"
Being Apprenticed to a spellcaster is only good if you're an Arcane Spellcaster class (every Drow is an Arcane Spellcaster, so you can take the feat). But growing up and being a spellcaster mentor is wicked sweet.
If you just wanted combat bonuses, you should be apprenticed to a Soldier and pass on your dagger-fu to the next generation. A +2 Unnamed bonus to Fort Saves is nothing to sneeze at if you're a Drow Rogue. But you're trying to be a "Magic" Rogue, so you want yourself the +2 Competence bonus to UMD and the bonus Knowledge: Arcana as a class skill.
-Username17
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Save_versus_Stupid
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Save_versus_Stupid » Tue May 16, 2006 9:37 pm

Alright, gentlemen, thank you for the replies. It will take me a while to organize the posted information and read the books referenced.
My next question is - is there any real reason for a typically finesse/dual wielding character to use the oversized wielding feat from the adventurer book? It seems to me like the point of doubling up with a larger weapon would mean you're no longer using one that would qualify for finesse.
Unless there is some one handed weapon that can use finesse and does real damage out there. I can't think of any besides a reason to use two elvish thinblades, instead of a thin/slim combo but at that point you're blowing two feats to do so.
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User3
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by User3 » Tue May 16, 2006 10:01 pm

> Save wrote:My next question is - is there any real reason for a typically finesse/dual wielding character to use the oversized wielding feat from the adventurer book? It seems to me like the point of doubling up with a larger weapon would mean you're no longer using one that would qualify for finesse.
> Unless there is some one handed weapon that can use finesse and does real damage out there. I can't think of any besides a reason to use two elvish thinblades, instead of a thin/slim combo but at that point you're blowing two feats to do so

Ok, Oversized Two-Weapon fighting is a trap where you blow a feat and then people laugh at you. Its just like saying "get a +1 to damage with one weapon(thats the average amount of extra damage), and lose the ability to Finesse with it." While an Elven Thinblade would work, you then have gotten into a situation where you've blown two feats(Elven Thinblade is an Exotic Weapon, so thats another feat) for a total of +1 to damage.
There far better ways to use feats.
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Save_versus_Stupid
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Save_versus_Stupid » Tue May 16, 2006 10:12 pm

Like monkey gripping two large longswords.
I don't know about you, but -6/-6 for 2d6/2d6 is a steal!11
----------------------------------
I really don't understand Wotc sometimes. I can deal with joke prestige classes and feats that allow people to play cloud or pretend they are anime characters, but for the uninformed casual player - they have so much bullshit to wade through while trying to build their character.
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Book
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Book » Tue May 16, 2006 10:13 pm

If you take my pure spellcaster/trickster route, you can convert your bad BAB (+10 / 20 Levels) into average BAB (+15 / 20 Levels) by having your weapons use the magical weapon enhancement that does just that. I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe that enhancement is either in the Complet Adventurer book or one of the recent FR sourcebooks.
Still, TWF and OTWF in such a build archetype is asking for trouble. You'd be better served taking archery feats to synergize with your high DEX and to keep your fragile body out of melee.
As a generic spellcaster, you could then choose all the muscular archery buff spells from the ranger, wiz/sorc, and assassin spell lists.
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fbmf
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by fbmf » Tue May 16, 2006 11:18 pm

[TGFBS]
Merged the Magical Rogue thread with the Cheese thread.
[/TGFBS]
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Username17
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Username17 » Wed May 17, 2006 1:01 am

Actually, I think that merging the current requests for new coherent builds in a relatively sane fashio with the old requests for driving into mad crazy town as fast as possible is not appropriate.
-Username17
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Save_versus_Stupid
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Save_versus_Stupid » Wed May 17, 2006 2:07 am

Third and final question before I continue crunching options for this character: If you (everyone) were to build an assassin character - how would you approach it?
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Wed May 17, 2006 2:25 am

Be a druid.
I'm serious about this--this isn't some backhanded comment about how druids are better than everyone (though they are).
They get more stealth than everyone else, have huge amounts of diplomacy (second only to the rogue maybe), and can turn into unsuspecting animals that nonetheless have ridiculous attack bonuses. Furthermore they can summon crappy animals and have the best array of trap spells in the default rules.
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Neeek
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Neeek » Wed May 17, 2006 2:30 am

Plus they are also the best equipped class to have good Spot and Listen abilities.
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Username17
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Username17 » Wed May 17, 2006 2:50 am

And Druids have Poison Use, and are the only class other than Wizards with a built-in ability to make Poison. So even if you insist on your "assassin" running around with a poisoned dagger, Druid really is the only way to go.
-Username17
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Book
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Book » Thu May 18, 2006 4:01 pm

I agree that the Assassin PrC is total crap. Death Attack in general is total crap as well.
If you insist on a Death Attack m.o., I believe the best way to get Death Attack into the crazy-high DC arena is via the Unearthed Arcana Racial Bloodline mechanics. It somehow works with a build composed of multiple PrC's that have the Death Attack class ability ... that all *STACK* ... and benefit from the Racial Bloodline level-continuance mechanic.
I'd build you an example, but I'm out-of-state at the moment.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by RandomCasualty » Thu May 18, 2006 4:32 pm

Even if you got a really high death attack, I find it rather pointless anyway. It takes a full 3 rounds to line that up, something that might be kinda cool in a solo session, but in group play is the equivalent of sitting out a combat.
Unless your entire group is built around stealth, Death attack is pretty much a waste of an ability.
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Book
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Book » Thu May 18, 2006 5:52 pm

Well, as I stated earlier, Death Attack is almost always a crap class ability. But there are exceptions. If you have a dedicated D.A. build that fulfills the combined following criteria, it may have real-life play value to it:
1. Has a Death Attack DC in the 40s, 50s or higher (which is completely possible).
2. Can fulfill a dedicated and valuable iconic party role without hamstringing his other class abilities. This includes being a good scout (see below).
3. Has a party dynamic that allows and and ecourages repeated solo forays ahead of the party to effectively use stealthy applications of his 3-Round Death Attack. That party dynamic should also have effective tactical contingencies for dealing with the Assassin's post-D.A. exposure to the enemy (whether successful or not).
***
All in all, that's a pretty demanding set of circumstances to shoulder on a typical 4-person party. As it pretty much entails that the party be structured to accomodate and maximize Mr. Assassin's D.A. schtick. Bleh.
The point of all this being, it *is* possible to integrate the Assassin's D.A. prowess into successful party combat mechanics. But it's rarely ever worth it.
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Sat May 20, 2006 5:47 pm

2 questions:
Does anyone know of cheap ways for level 8-10 characters to pump up their spellcraft check?
Does anyone have an expanded familiar list with accompanying bonuses?
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Book
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Book » Sat May 20, 2006 8:13 pm

> Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1148147225[/unixtime]]2 questions:
> Does anyone know of cheap ways for level 8-10 characters to pump up their spellcraft check?
> Does anyone have an expanded familiar list with accompanying bonuses?

1. Artificers are the kings of crazy-high skill boosting.
2. Specify what types ... normal, improved, Dragon Magazine alternates, etc. Also remember that Elven Wizards get a racial bonus option in RotW to double that bonus.
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: Build me a magical rogue!

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Sat May 20, 2006 11:04 pm

Let me rephrase that.
Cheap ways for level 8-10 characters to pump up their spellcraft check that are available without hurting their character concepts (like taking skill focus or precocious apprentice or any of that crap) or taking levels in artificer.
You were right on the money with the RotW thing. I'm trying to make a character with a really high spellcraft check because the DM is a jerk about spell research. I don't want anything from Dragon, but a WotC product that's not done by Kenzerco is fine with me. Preferrably 3.5E, but I'll take whatever.
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User3
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### The Seductress - optimizing Dead Levels II of all things

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Post by User3 » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:24 am

Presented by Squirrelloid and Iaimeki:
I highly recommend you read the Dead Levels II article now, at least the part about Swashbucklers and Seduce to Learn Secret. (See http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x) Its mostly crap, but the Swashbuckler ability is totally hawtsome. And that's not a word I usually use.
Build Sources: PHB, DMG, MiniHB, CW, CA, MoI, RoD, CV (aid another action rules update)
With no further ado… the seductress.
“Ok, the evil wizard is just through the next door.”
“We take him on 3… 2…”
“Hold on guys, let me try.”
**slips through doorway**
“Oh Edgar, I hear you’ve been a very evil boy!”
Half-elf Swa4/Mar1/Warl1/Brd1 (with Brd1 racial substitution)
Relevant stats: 18 Cha starting -> venerable (+3), level (+1) -> 22
Feats: SkF(Bluff), Meld (Silvertongue Mask), Leadership
Items: +2 Cha item, Mwk Tool Diplomacy (make-up kit), Mwk Tool Seduction (sexy lingerie), +8 bluff item, +8 diplomacy item. (16900gp)
Bluff: 7 Cha + 10 ranks + 3 SkF(Bluff) +2 Silvertongue Mask + 8 item + 7 motivate Cha + 6 warlock + 2 mwk item (sexy lingerie) (+ 4 to 6 Aid Another) = +45 (+49-51)
Diplomacy: 6 Cha + 10 ranks + 6 synergy + 2 racial + 2 Silvertongue Mask + 8 item + 6 motivate Cha +6 warlock +2 mwk item (make-up kit) (+4 to 6 Aid Another) = +48 (+54-56).
“Interloper! Now you die!”
“Woh woh, lets not be hasty.” *plays with bauble hanging down near top of bodice to draw attention to ample cleavage* “I’m sure we can think of much more pleasant things to do with each other.”
*Mesmerized* “Yes… yes… of course…”
“Good…. Do you mind if I bring a friend?”
Cohort
Half-elf Swa4/Warl1
Relevant stats: 18 Cha starting -> venerable (+3), level (+1) -> 22
Feats: SkF (Bluff), Silvertongue Mask
Items: Mwk Tool Seduction (sexy lingerie), Mwk Tool Diplomacy (make-up kit) (100gp)
For Aid-Another purposes:
Bluff: +6 Cha +7 Motivate + 5 feats + 8 ranks +2 mwk item (sexy lingerie) +6 Warlock = +34
Diplomacy: +6 Cha +7 Motivate + 2 Feat (meld) + 8 ranks + 4 synergy + 2 racial + 2 mwk item (make-up kit) + 6 Warlock = +37
In the hallway, the other party members each have their ear pressed to the door…
“They’ve stopped talking.”
“What the heck is she doing in there?”
Time passes… Party clearly hears loud noises from other side of the door.
“She didn’t…”
So, the Dead Levels II article promises low-powered abilities that won’t really balance out classes. Then it gives us Seduce to Learn Secret, which basically gives a character Carte Blanche to air anyone’s dirty laundry (or not, for the right price) with a static skill DC. The advantage here is that knowledge is power. Any adventure that hinges on discovering a crucial piece of information (or not discovering it) can be totally short-circuited by this character.
The next thing that should be noted is that your diplomacy check, even before Aid Another kicks in, is already high enough to take the -10 to make a diplomacy check as a full round action and *automatically make a hostile monster or character friendly*, and a decent shot at hitting helpful too. This means that your hawtsome +49 or better Seduction check also gets a +5 modifier from their attitude, so we’re shooting farther towards not having to sleep with everyone. (I’m sure there’s a lot of disappointed boys out there, but seriously, 1d4+1 hours for *every* secret known by 3 or fewer people you want to know? Crazy. You’ll be in bed all day – and most of that will probably be with old or venerable *humans* (who age poorly, clearly unlike the totally hot half-elves above), so your fantasy bedroom scenes aren’t actually all that… desirable… to think to hard about).
Finally, this ability literally works on anyone. You can totally knock on your deity of choice’s bedroom door, talk them out of their nightclothes, and get them to spill the secrets of the universe. Its not even hard. (You can do it at 7th level!) Really, I’m just sad that Ao is just as easy as Elminster who’s just as easy as Tabitha the Barmaid – there just aren’t any challenging conquests out there for the “high-level” seductress.
Please note that Seduce to Learn Secret requires that the “nonplayer character must find the swashbuckler physically attractive.” Because most DMs are male, most NPCs are going to default to being male because that is more comfortable with the DM, so playing a female character *actually gives you more power*. (But that’s ok, we have nothing against wanting to play hot half-elf women). Furthermore, even though D+D claims gender neutrality, that only seems to hold for PCs – NPCs are stuck in a pseudo-medieval recreation in almost all campaign worlds, which virtually requires almost everyone in a position of power be male. (I’m also willing to bet that 99% of games don’t feature many homosexual characters either). But even if the person you want to learn a secret from is the wrong gender relative to you for their sexual preference, you’ve got Bard 1 casting and thus you take Disguise Self – problem solved.
The write-up also notes that Gather Information will be useful to figure out who knows what you want to know – that’s ok, we also max that badboy out while we’re at it. Your second most important stat is intelligence because you love your skill points. Really, Gather Information to find out who knows the secret you want really isn’t the use you’re really after. Its Gather Information to find out what secrets given people know that will fill your purse when you pry those secrets from them.
Its barely worth noting, but this character has all the abuses of the classic Diplomancer builds as well, with DCs high enough to more than matter. I won’t bother to repeat them here, you can check out: http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive ... br][I]More Time Passes.
*Slipping out of door, followed by cohort*
*Wakes up sleeping party*
“I found out what we need to know. Let’s get going… well, maybe we could sleep first?”[/I]
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fbmf
  The Great Fence Builder
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### Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

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Post by fbmf » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:20 pm

[TGFBS]
Seductress Build added to the Cheese thread.
[/TGFBS]
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User3
  Prince
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### Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

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Post by User3 » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:09 pm

Am I the only one disturbed by the 90+ year old seductress?
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Fwib
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### Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

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Post by Fwib » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:30 pm

I too, noticed that the seductress was old enough to be a granny.
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tzor
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### Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

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Post by tzor » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:08 pm

> Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1176386950[/unixtime]]Am I the only one disturbed by the 90+ year old seductress?

Not I, after all this is supposed to be FANTASY! :tonguesmile:
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Cielingcat
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### Re: Cheese Updates, 3.5

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Post by Cielingcat » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:00 pm

90 is middle aged for a half-elf, which means to be venerable she's actually 125.
CHICKENS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO COCAINE, SILKY HEN

> Josh_Kablack wrote:You are not a unique and precious snowflake, you are just one more fucking asshole on the internet who presumes themselves to be better than the unwashed masses.

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