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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:27 pm

Two votes for Killoren? Um... OK. I had honestly forgotten these guys existed. They were one of the "other races" from Races of the Wild. A shovelware book which spares an entire chapter to ranting about Halflings (despite them not traditionally living in the wild by any possible stretch of the imagination), and the Killoren don't even get a major heading. Ugh.
The first sentence is a quote about how they have ancient knowledge, the second sentence describes them as a newly arisen race... I think when this book came out that is exactly as far as I got with them before flipping to the feats to see if there was something dumpster diveable. This looks like the kind of crap Gwendolyn Kestrel comes up with, and she is listed as a design contributor for the book, so that's probably it.
The basic design space they were working in was to introduce a race that had an inherent buff slot that they got to prepare something in each day. The buff slots are filled with bullshit, and I think pretty much everyone just takes the bonus to initiative and scouting skills every day. But actually, I don't think it's a bad idea. Especially if you had the buff slots be roughly balanced or geared towards really different classes, you could go a long way with that sort of thing. If you could pick the "Elvish Thing" you were awesome at each day, you wouldn't need so many fucking Elvish subraces to cover everything.
Anyway, the original Killoren fills up three fucking pages because of the late period 3.5 shovelware formatting. Eleven lines of text are dedicated to the "Lands" subheading, which begins with the sentence "As yet, the Killoren claim no lands of their own." It's actually kind of amazing in a way. In 4th edition, they were called "Wilden," possibly for copyright reasons, possibly to distance themselves from Kelly Killoren the model after she did a Playboy spread. Moving forward, the Wilden name should be used by preference I should think. Regardless of the hows and whys, they really have to choose between being a new race created by the Feywilds to defend itself from invaders and having ancient secrets and power. Personally, I'd go with the brand new deal, because ancient power is rock type. They can keep the "potentially different aspect each day" thing, but they need new aspects that don't make me want to shit myself so I have something to throw.
The physical description is also totally at odds with itself. I mean, they tell me that they look like Half Elves, and then they have this as their picture:
That doesn't look a fucking thing like a Half Elf.
They can either have green skin and twig antlers or they can look like Half Elves. They can't do both.
So... when people say they want a Killoren writeup, do they really mean that they want a less-sucky version of the 4e Wilden? Or do they want more of a Half-Elf Fey type thing?
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Post by Darth Rabbitt » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:38 pm

I'd personally dig the better Wilden angle, if not just because "deer-headed Swamp Thing" is way more interesting than "fey half-elf."

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Post by Antariuk » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:00 pm

I honestly, totally didn't know that Killoren got rewritten as Wilden in 4E, but after a quick browse I would say go the Wilden route. Nobody needs a new kind of elf, but fey weirdness is always appreciated.
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Post by RufusCorvus » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:07 pm

I had no idea about Wilden. I say go the plant-person route.
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Post by zugschef » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:10 pm

Talking of Half-Elves, I've always liked Tolkien's idea that they had to choose if they want to be elven or human.
As for these playboy poster dudes, I'd definitely go for the antlers.
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Post by Username17 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:42 pm

OK. So the mechanics of the Wilden are also a mess, and would need to be reworked. For 3e, I figure they should probably be a +2 Wisdom race. Anyway, here's my Wilden rewrite on the fluff side:
Wilden
The Wilden are fey creatures created by the Feywild as a sort of “immune response” to violations of the natural order. They appear as rough mirrors of the original offense, which results in them being roughly humanoid in shape as well as users of tools and givers of names. As choice making people, no individual Wilden is forced to pursue the goal for which their homeworld created them, but every one of them is able to instinctively feel the presence of undead and time distortions.
The Wilden breed and bear children in the same way that humanoids do, but the first Wilden were budded from a holly tree. Their flesh and skin is green year round and slightly spiny in some places like a holly leaf. Over the course of the year, various parts of their bodies sprout little white flowers that turn into berries that are green, white, or red depending on the season. These berries are very slightly poisonous and do not grow when planted into the ground. The bones, teeth, and nails of a Wilden are brown and woody, and many Wilden have growths from their heads that appear as antlers or crowns made of twigs which is called a “crest.” Some Wilden have hair, which has the same seasonal color properties as Dryad hair.
The Wilden can tap into the forces of nature that called for them to exist in the first place, but because nature is so very large they can only harness a limited aspect of it at a time. When a Wilden goes into their daily sleep-like dreamless dormancy, they can will themselves to take on a different aspect of nature. When they awaken, the impact of primal power will have changed. Sometimes, there are physical changes as well, such as sprouting or wilting of flowers or the warping of their crest. Wilden recognize the aspects of nature as Provider, Healer, Hunter, and Destroyer, but the druids teach that there are many more that a Wilden could potentially master given study.
Those Wilden of a spiritual bent almost always follow the path of the druid. Wilden feel antipathy towards undead and to those who manipulate of the flow of time. The natural order of night following day and death following life “feels right” to them on a very primal level that transcends attitudes of morality and ethics. Wilden talk often of the “deeper understanding,” which is a set of things that Wilden know or believe on an instinctual basis. The Wilden consider these to be truths given to them by the need of the Feywild to call them into existence.
The “deeper understanding” also applies to other fey creatures, who react with deep respect to Wilden. Even perpetually jovial and deliberately trivial fey creatures find themselves taking Wilden seriously, as if the world itself had told them that the Wilden were too important to ignore.
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Post by Lokathor » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:07 am

Having an automatic "deeper understanding" of some subjects sounds a lot like the gith idea of learning how to *know* yourself and the things around you. I like it.
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Post by Antariuk » Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:48 am

Thanks Frank, that is a lot less confusing than the RotW blurb. Personally, I probably wouldn't have the first ones been born from a single tree but like everything (trees, stones, bushes, lakes, grasslands, etc.) resulting in a variety of looks.
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Post by Username17 » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:15 pm

> CapnTthePirateG wrote:Derro. Who are not drow.

Sure. The big question of course, is why we need Derro when we already have the Drow. Linguistically, it's the same word. They even got converted to D&D in pretty much the same way. It's short, it's evil, it lives in the Underdark, it has no pupils, it keeps slaves, it gets a Dexterity bonus, and it hates the people on the surface. So much hate! It's not even that they aren't conscious of it, they were introduced after the Drow and their 1st edition writeup mentions the Drow by name.
But a second, and equally valid question is why we need Derro if we already have Duergar? In the original mythic source material, there is no difference between Elves and Dwarves, but ever since Tolkien those have been distinct concepts. So you could make a case for having evil Underdark Dwarves be distinct from evil Underdark Elves. But even granting that claim, we already have Duergar. Fuck, the Duergar are even in the same AD&D Monster Manual (MM2) as the Derro. What the actual fuck?
Now, there's a potential plot line in some editions where the Derro are rumored to be a nation of rape babies who go to the surface to kidnap humans not just for slaves and food, but also for "breeding" to keep human blood in their tribe. That is fucking disgusting, and while it's the kind of rumor that would exist about a race of subterranean slavers, I think we can all agree that the game would be better if that particular rumor was false. But without the "Derro are half-Dwarf rapists" angle, the Derro really are just Duergar with 3 hit dice. So... let's work with that.
Dark Dwarves: Duergar, Derro, and Durzagon
The great treasure vaults of the Dwarves were justifiably the subject of legends. The Dwarven emperor had gold and gems almost beyond imagination – but certainly not beyond avarice. Dwarf lords of several houses betrayed both their liege and their vassals to dark powers in the hopes of gaining hold of the fantastic treasures for themselves. The common Dwarves who were sold by their leaders were marked as owned by the dark powers by having the color drained from them inside and out. They became the Duergar, their skin gray and their hearts hardened by their slavery to Mammon and Tiamat. This is why the Dark Dwarves are also called Gray Dwarves.
The traitorous noble houses were rewarded by the dark powers with power. They became the fiendish houses, their blood intermingled with creatures from the lower planes. The two most powerful of the fiendish houses are House Derro and House Durzagon. Those of House Derro have large pupiless eyes and skin the color of a frozen lake. House Durzagon wears its corruption more openly, and members frequently have poisonous spines growing through their beards, ruinous claws, and great dragon-like wings. Many members of these houses have actual fiends as first or second degree relatives, either by birth or by pact.
The Duergar are hard to see. Not that they are spectacularly camouflaged against backgrounds other than slate, but that the act of draining them has left them Dwarven shells that mortal eyes simply do not wish to see. The Dark Dwarves have many fiendish and gargoyle allies, as well as a subset of normal Dwarven domesticated beasts: cave aurochs, bears, and the enormous riding tarantulas called “steeders,” but no wolves, gorgons, or giant goats are found in Duergar strongholds. Duergar food is like a blander version of Dwarf food: the same aurochs' milk, spider's eggs, turnips, and fungus, make the basics, but almost no onions, spices, or alcohol liven any meal.
By tradition, all the fiendish houses of the Dark Dwarves work together without treachery when they are at war, which is why the head of the current highest house endeavors to be at war almost all the time. When there is no “unifying war,” the houses quickly turn on each other with intrigue and rebellion. Slavery is practiced whenever possible by the Dark Dwarves, and any truly wealthy Duergar will always own people. Human and Orcish slaves are preferred, but they have no compunctions about enslaving Dwarves or even Duergar. Almost half of the Duergar population are slaves. The fungus and turnip farms are tended exclusively by slaves.
The powerful warlocks leading each branch of House Derro are known as Savants. Their lieutenants and heirs are known as Student Savants no matter how powerful they become. House Durzagon is best known for their propensity to bind Barbazu and transform into Blue Dragons with the acquisition of gold, but leadership is simply hereditary.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:10 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:The big question of course, is why we need Derro when we already have the Drow. Linguistically, it's the same word.

This is probably not true. The Derro of D&D almost certainly owe their origin to the Dero of the hilarious 1940s fiction/hoax/delusion that was the Shaver Mystery, and whose name is (supposedly) derived from Detrimental Robots. Now, that particular mythology works a lot better with old D&D's far-future-post-apocalypse dealie, but I think it's worth a look, considering.
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Post by MGuy » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:35 am

> TiaC wrote:Re: Kalashtar
> There is actually a full backstory for them in Races of Eberron. It goes like this.
> Dal Quor is the realm of dreams. The heart of it is the Quor Tarai which influences the whole of the plane and created the Quori. If it dies, a new one will spring into being and change the nature of the Quori and the plane. The current Quor Tarai makes Dal Quor a nightmare, this is why the Quori are evil. However, a few Quori do not like the state of Dal Quor. One of them made a prophesy that when the current Quor Tarai dies, the next one will make Dal Quor a happy place. He led the other good Quori in attempting to begin the new age, they lost, they ran, they sought and were granted sanctuary in the minds of some monks. Now each of them is spread across hundreds of minds. The other Quori possessed humans and are trying to kill all the kalashtar. So they are still fighting over the future of the dreaming.

I wanted to say this but have been moving so I didn't give enough of a fuck to chime in but the Quor that possessed them are indeed good. Kalashtar mostly don't have any problem with their Quor spirits but they indeed accepted them for no real reason other than the kindness of their heart. They have psionics because they are connected or some such (been a while since I actually read up on them) but I still like the rewrite. Gonna just take what's there and combine it with the other bits of lore. Also there ARE evil Quori still (many more of them) and they do the same thing except more forcibly. They are called Inspired in this case and they pretty much 'hollow out' their host before possessing them so that they don't have them fighting back.
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Post by Username17 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:22 am

> Lokathor wrote:Among the Tome races, Tieflings and Aasimar both have racial writeups that talk about them mechanically much more than than culturally. I think they need some of this 500 word attention.

> MGuy wrote:Assuming we're supposed to just throw them out there I'd say Humans.

> Silent Wayfarer wrote:The evil humans and halflings from BOVD?

That seems like it could collectively get the Duergar treatment. I mean, the thing where the Vashar are known to be evil because they want to fight the gods is retarded (what with half the gods being, you know, evil). And the thing where all Vashar sex is rape just doesn't make any sense for any race more intelligent than a bed bug. But evil subtype humans with a fortress plateau seems like something that can be worked with.
Human, Fiendish: Alû, Cambion, Tiefling, and Vashar
Humans (or their close relatives like the Azurin or Kalashtar) live in every part of the globe. But nowhere on the planet do as many Humans live as in the sprawling city of Tangan-Nuru. And so, when that city and the surrounding kingdoms were conquered by the forces of darkness, Humanity was considered to be a race in decline by many.
For several hundred years, fiendish overlords ruled the region, and they created fiendish houses from which to draw barons and dukes. The most powerful of these houses were House Alû and House Cambion, both of which were considered to be half fiend and half human, in no small part because even common children who were sufficiently half fiendish were adopted into the fiendish houses, while those children whose fiendish powers were weak were disavowed and sent to live in the world as clanless Tieflings.
When humanity freed itself, and Tangan-Nuru issued in its dynasty of Paladin Queens, it was done so with the aid of not a few people who had some amount of fiendish ancestry. Most Tieflings found that they owed little to the fiendish aristocracy that refused to acknowledge them, and even several cadet branches of House Alû chose to ally with the human revolt in exchange for keeping their lands and titles when the banners of darkness had been torn down. The forces of Malcanthet and Baphomet have been driven back to the Plateau of Vash, but many counties are still under the control of people who are demonstrably fiends.
But just as not all fiends fought for the side of darkness, not all Humans allied themselves with the light. Many Humans fled with the defeated fiendish armies, and they are called Vashar, for the bitter highlands that are now theirs. Some Humans continue the work of their dark masters within Human lands. They meet in secret, their faces hidden by cloaks and masks, and they are also called Vashar for the lands that hold their true allegiances. The Plateau itself is patrolled by griffin and howler riders, but their hidden cults draw upon less flamboyant assistance from the dark ones. The Vashar do horrible things to themselves and others in an attempt to draw favor and be elevated into a new fiendish house.
Tieflings look much like Humans save for having one or more “fiendish” traits. Some have Goblin skin colors such as red, orange, or yellow. Some have tiny horns, fangs, vestigial wings, or small tails. Cloven hooves are rare, and patches of scales are rarer still. Tiefling eyes range from completely human to goatish. Their fiendish magical powers are, virtually by definition, minimal.
Those half-fiends of House Alû are descendants of fiends such as Succubi who actually look pretty similar to Humans in the first place. As such, they can usually pass for Tieflings (though some have to hide their wings). Lands and titles are inherited by the eldest daughter when an immortal landholder is slain.
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Post by Username17 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:57 pm

> Cynic wrote:A more interesting Jermlaine, please.

> virgil wrote:Galltrit - I was tempting to choose Fremlin, but their immunity to non-magical weapons would've made it too easy. These guys are a bit harder to feel like more than a throw-away race.

So there's kind of two votes for Gremlins I suppose. An interesting note on Gremlins is that 2nd edition sources disagree on some fundamentals of biology. In some writeups, we are assured that Gremlins are related to Gnomes, and in other writeups we are assured that they can interbreed with any Goblinoid. That could be resolved by declaring that Gnomes are a kind of Goblinoid, or of course one or the other could be declared "correct."
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:50 pm

Gnomes are already the elf/dwarf/halfling race. Add in goblinoid, and they seem like some sort of progenitor species from which all the others were derived.
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Post by fectin » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:14 pm

While it's tempting to make the gnomes secret masters of the world, I think that's inviting too much trouble.

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Post by Lokathor » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:29 pm

Both could be correct without gnomes also being goblinoids. Gremlins can be related to gnome but not able to breed with them.
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Post by Prak » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 pm

> angelfromanotherpin wrote:Gnomes are already the elf/dwarf/halfling race.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I mean, I've always been able to see gnomes as coming from dwarves--there are a lot of connections there--but not so much a connection with elves, other than in personality, or halflings, other than in size.
Gnomes could be dwarven descendants, whose blood was then mixed with goblinoid blood (either through battlefield liaisons of diverse nature, or a Wizard Did It) to create Gremlins.
Hell, maybe gremlins arose before the gnomes had any real beef with goblins, and the first gremlins were just gnome/goblin half-breeds, but then something happened (like the goblins using gremlins to steal gnome craft secrets to become better saboteurs) that made the gnomes disown the gremlins and turn against goblinkind.
...in fact, I'm now tempted to do 500 words on gremlins based on that.
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Post by Koumei » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:04 am

If Bioware have taught me anything, it's that gnomes do share the goblin trait of "being a pain in the ass that you should immediately kill, just to save time later on when they annoy you enough".
If I weren't back at work I'd provide a picture of Grobnar. And the two gnomes that are obsessed with the Wendersnaven. And the shopkeeper who is excited about being pressured by a protection racket - "it means I've finally made it big!" Actually the least annoying were the two that turn out to be werewolves and attack you. Go figure.
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Post by Blicero » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:11 am

@Koumei: Bioware did not do Neverwinter Nights 2. That was Obsidian. They have pretty distinct styles, as far as Western CRPG companies go.
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Post by Prak » Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:15 am

Gremlins
Gremlins are diminutive creatures which seem to mix the worst qualities of gnomes, goblins and kobolds, and then add their own terrible qualities not seen in any of those three. They are seldom taller than about 2’, have slick, scaly skin, little, if any, hair, and large pointed ears. Several varieties have large leathery wings allowing quite skilled flight.
They share the kobold’s propensity for trap creation, though their traps tend to be more jury-rigged than kobolds’. Like goblins, they are fast for their size, and quite adept at moving silently and hiding. Like gnomes, gremlins are mischievous pranksters and precocious experimenters. However, whereas a gnome’s pranks are typically only damaging to the target’s pride, and their experiments are typically performed to minimize the chance of risk, a gremlin’s pranks are almost universally designed to do as much harm as possible, and their experiments are performed with wanton abandon and disregard for safety.
Aeons ago, before goblins and kobolds were the hated foes of gnomes everywhere, the three races were quite friendly with one another, even freely intermingling and marrying. The first gremlins were the mutts created in this extended mingling of blood, but they did in fact breed true with one another, and had little difficulty breeding with gnomes, kobolds and goblins.
It was not long before Kurtulmak set his sights on the treasuries of the dwarves, and Maglubiet desired to take their halls for his children’s warrens, and both saw the value of the mixed-breed gremlins. Gremlins were recruited with great eagerness by kobold clutch-leaders and goblin matrons to sabotage dwarven defenses and create traps for the battles to come. When that battle came, gnomes stood with their ancestral race, the dwarfs, and were horrified by the great devastation wrought by the clawed, oil-slicked hands of the gremlins at the behest of their kobold and goblin friends. The gnomes disowned their mixed breed children, and erased goblins and kobolds from their list of allies and trading partners to pen them into the pages of hated enemies forever more.
After the Subterranean War, the gremlins were essentially discarded by the kobolds and goblins, their usefulness ended, out of a fear of having to share what few spoils they’d won with the mixed breeds. With no patron god, and no larger race to fall back on, the orphan race of gremlins turned to the many spirits who seek handholds on mortal society to spread their influence, and pledged themselves to Haagenti, demon lord of Artifice and Alchemy, who improved their ability to destroy by giving them an even greater understanding of creating destructive tools and grievous traps.
Gnomes these days do not speak of gremlins, and many generations have since been born that don’t even know they’re any different from goblins. Those that do know of gremlins and their history often kill the cunning tricksters on sight, lest they slip away behind a bulwark of trip lines, deadfalls and magical trap sigils.
-491 words

Ok, so 3.5 doesn't really have gremlins (well, not in WotC's library...) but they existed in 2e. Description pulled from there. Sure there are gremlin-like things in 3.5, but here's a write up for basic gremlins. I see them as a small race, with high dex and int, probably low str, maybe poor cha race with bonuses on Disable Device, Craft (Trapmaking) and Craft (Alchemy).
Notably, D20 Modern did writeup gremlins*, and they were described as secreting a natural oil from their claws that basically acted as machine lubricant for helping them unscrew bolts and such.
*this is actually pretty understandable, as gremlins are a modern folklore creature from the era of WW1, where they were blamed for mechanical malfunctions on russian airplanes, rather than an ancient or medieval mythology creature.
Last edited by Prak on Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:33 pm

> Koumei wrote:Gnolls

> Prak_Anima wrote:I'm going to second gnolls, but mostly because I want to know where the hell the "lazy" part of the "lazy hyena men filled with awesome" meme came from.

Gnolls
According to legend, the Gnolls once lived in a great empire alongside many other peoples. And if one looks at the broken monuments and abandoned cities being claimed by the wasteland they now inhabit, that legend seems plausible. Generations ago, the demon lord Yeenoghu started a cult among the Gnolls and gave them power over death in exchange for three simple commands: Make nothing but weapons; Pay nothing but blood; and Leave nothing but ash.
The cult of Yeenoghu wrote no books, raised no monuments, and worked no land, but with their power and fanaticism were able to take what they wanted from those more civilized than themselves and tear down the walls of those who tried to keep what they had produced. The irrigation works that had taken hundreds of years to produce were destroyed in just a few years. The cult went out of its way to butcher those they had robbed, but took special care to murder those Gnolls who had not joined.
Today, almost all of the Gnolls are members of the cult of Yeenoghu. Though they remain physically dangerous, their numbers have dwindled, and the ghoul haunted wastelands they now prowl have little in the way of people or wealth. The Gnolls keep their pledge to make nothing but weapons, and make their living as hunters, scavengers, mercenaries, and bandits. Their herds of ibixes and aurochs are no more, but the Gnolls still have their hyenas and hyenadons, which they regard similarly to how a Human views a Sphinx or a Dwarf views a Shedu: an attractive head on the body of a strange beast.
Gnolls look very much like large humanoid hyenas. As with that species, the females are slightly larger than the males but quite difficult to tell apart. Gnolls are omnivorous, but can live on an entirely meat-based diet and prefer to do so. The most prestigious clan of Gnolls is called the Flind, and their members are larger and often have identifiable demonic traits from their mixed ancestry.
The priests of Yeenoghu command ghouls, and bands of Gnolls often work alongside Trolls. However reluctantly, most Gnolls will now consent to buy things with copper or silver rather than simply taking whatever they want, though only in areas which have temporal authorities that can't be easily overwhelmed. Gnollish mercenaries appear in armies and hordes thousands of kilometers from what were once considered the Gnollish lands.
The weaponsmithing of the Gnolls is actually quite advanced. While most Gnolls know nothing of their history and the libraries they once frequented have long since been cleansed by fire and rain, Gnollish blacksmiths have handed down techniques through the ages in an unbroken chain of master and apprentice from before the time of Yeenoghu. They have a method of making folded and rolled steel using charcoal pits that can be performed even in the wilderness. Gnolls make some of the strongest wire and chains, and make a number of chain based weapons.
-497 words
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Last edited by Username17 on Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shatner
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Post by Shatner » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:04 pm

Awesome. Gnollish fundies = win all the wars and lose all the civilization.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:12 am

Bonus points for having zero direct references to hyena cock.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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tussock
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Post by tussock » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:58 am

The sight of Trolls and Ghouls in one entry demands we learn more of the Thouls (unless they are simply demoted to half-troll ghouls as the shadow trolls, giant trolls, spectral trolls, spirit trolls, and two-headed trolls were in the age of templates).
PC, SJW, anti-fascist, not being a dick, or working on it, he/him.
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Ganbare Gincun
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Post by Ganbare Gincun » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:33 am

> Koumei wrote:Bonus points for having zero direct references to hyena cock.

Um, er.... what?
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