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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:52 am

Hmm....
What was your first character, ever, in a tabletop or freeform RPG?
That could be what influences your opinion.
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TavishArtair
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Post by TavishArtair » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:04 am

Half-elf cyborg druid with a mecha-bow and rocket-arrows.
Oh, you were asking Catharz.
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Post by Username17 » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:05 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:

> > Judging__Eagle wrote:Call it a battle wizard if that helps you more.

> It doesn't; I've tried. I realize that this might still mean that I'm suffering from the 'fighters can't have nice things' psychosis.

Sounds like it. I don't know if you've noticed, but the armies of like CR 3 races in D&D land seriously transform into other things, turn invisible, and fly. That's what being a hardened veteran actually looks like.
This isn't ancient Greece or even mythic Greece. It's fucking Mongo. And if you learn the secrets of this tribe and the next you're seriously learning from the Hawkmen and the Phantom Tribe. Think John Carter or the characters from El Hazard.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:10 am

> Judging__Eagle wrote:Hmm....
> What was your first character, ever, in a tabletop or freeform RPG?
> That could be what influences your opinion.

Human fighter: leather armor, sword, dagger; 1e D&D. But that was a very brief introduction. What do you think that says?
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:51 am

Hmm...
The character probably didn't leave a strong impression on you, from what you're saying. Honestly, a fighter in leather armour sounds like someone that barely did any adventuring at all.
Was there an early character that left a strong impression on you?
I remember my 1st PC was a ranger in a freeform, no dice, no carried books game that some older kids ran when I was in grade 2.
When I got to playing 2e at the tabletop, the starting group had an assassin and a wizard; I didn't know that clerics were battle characters, or could be bastards, so I rolled a NE human fighter who picked crushing/cleaving weapons as his proficiency/specialty (the Fighter Handbook weapon groups rules).
In my 1st 3e game, I built a wizard that focused on using obscuring mist, and enlarge person. It was a "lazy" build, but it did work pretty good. Then a dozen other characters in 3e.
Plus characters in other games, and systems. I was the troll with melee training and a heavy handgun in SR; mostly b/c the groups I played with always seemed to be missing muscle; everyone was always a Decker or Wired Reflexes Street Sam; with the occasional caster. Plus characters in other systems, and for other games.
Frank,
Mongo is fucking awesome. 'Mongo' is the arbitrary character used in Argentinian slang to mean 'no one'; for example, someone sees a mess, and asks "Who the fuck is going to clean this up? Mongo?". I'm not sure if 'Mongo' exists in other spanish speaking countries, but going to Mongo is an idea that I find hilariously appropriate.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:27 pm

So more thoughts:
Lizardfolk: when swimming or climbing, the Soldier gains (small amount of Sneak Attack) as they perform Saurus Commando Assassination Techniques.
---
Ogre: whenever the Soldier connects with an Attack of Opportunity provoked by movement or combat manoeuvres, the action automatically fails and they stand there, bleeding from the ears.
Yak Folk: the Soldier can use all magical staves without needing to make Abuse Magic Device checks, even if they lack any casting ability at all.
(It seems less complicated than allowing short-term "I hit you, I possess you" powers.)
Abeil: the Soldier can cause anaphylaxis in foes. If they strike a foe who is currently poisoned (whether they took full effect or otherwise), the foe must make a Fortitude save or take 3d6 Con damage from Poison, though this immediately ends the poison effect.
(The other option was to give a similar ability to the stormwing, but this isn't just "Gain an ability of the race", it's "This is a combat ability that the race itself would try to learn.)
Succubus: once per round, when the Soldier damages a foe, the foe must make a Will save or receive a Suggestion from the Soldier.
---
Stone Giant: any nonmagical weapons that strike the Soldier shatter against their hard body, dealing zero damage. Magical weapons instead require a Fort save. If failed, the weapon is dropped as the wielder hurts their hand. Natural weapons/unarmed attacks are not dropped or shattered: everyone knows Fighting > Stone.
Fire Giant: when striking someone, the Soldier may convert all damage to Fire damage and cause the target to catch fire. There is no save against this, but the save DC to put the fire out by stop, drop and roll is 10 + half the Soldier's character level + the Soldier's Int modifier.
---
Ethergaunt: anybody who can see the Soldier has to make a Will save on their turn or take 1d6 Int damage from the stupefying gaze.
Gelugon: if the Soldier strikes a foe, they may elect to make any amount of the damage Cold damage and also force them to make a Fort save. If they fail the save, the foe is frozen solid, killing them and rendering them helpless/immobile on the off chance death-by-cold doesn't affect them.
Sadly I can't think of much for Celestials and stuff, but to be fair, the entire time this class has been up, all of my suggestions have been while going through brain-med detox, including regular vomit breaks now. So I like to think that, were I not detoxing and for all I know possibly dying, I'd be able to pull a giant list of stuff out my backside in three seconds.
---
Level X:
En-Passant*: the Soldier is always striking at those who attempt to move to positions of safety, though sometimes they only notice the injuries after they stop running. The Soldier may make one attack against every foe who was within a square he threatened during his last turn, even if they have since left the square. They must then make Fortitude saves or be dragged back as close as possible to where they were last turn.
*You may wish to check the actual spelling.
Last edited by Koumei on Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Heath Robinson
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Post by Heath Robinson » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:55 pm

En Passant is correct.
Last edited by Heath Robinson on Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:00 pm

Excellent. I find it fascinating how with Chess, a game that so many people just assume always existed in its current state (though usually those are the people who don't know the En Passant rule), the rules changed over the years. They eventually granted Turbo Boost to Pawns. Then they decided to give them En Passant.
Then they banned Tactical Genius and "A word in your ear".

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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:57 pm

You know, on the third look over, I think I'd have no problem at all with this class if it was named "Chameleon". That's really what it looks like to me: the chameleon done well.

The first game that I ever played in left a strong impression on me; the character less so. I played it like a Lone Wolf book: making the decisions I would make given the character's options (but without keeping bookmarks for backtracking ).
The most memorable characters I've played since then are 3rd edition D&D, but that is probably just because I played them more recently.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Win Game.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:07 pm

Eladrin:
Ghale
-Death Touch: Creatures that attack you have to make a Will save of be frightened, as by the Fear spell. Creatures with 5 HD less
Bralani
-Wind Blast: Creatures that attack you have to make a Reflex save, or be thrown 20' in a direction away from you. 20' up counts as away from you.
For Epic:
Astral Stalker: You may cast Astral Projection, with a caster level equal to your class level
Sorrowsworn Demon: Aura of Loss (ideally, something more than the MM3 thing, since it's will save, for a -2 to attack, saves, ability checks, and skill checks)
Lumi?:
Body of Light:
(immune to:
-death effects
-death spells,
-energy drain
-negative energy effects)
generates light
never gain too many temp HP from the positive energy plane
clear vision: can't be blinded or dazzled, can be blinded by concleatment (fogs etc); sun blades do nonlethal damage to a lumi (wtf?, w/e)
they also get disrupt undead, light at will; and CLW and glitterdust 3/day
they have some random head floating powers, like immune to vorpal weapons, and choking/suffocation
Phoelarch: humanoid phoenixes, basically; fire abilities, fire healing, death throes, and a res ability upon death, to be reborn as a phoera (the bird version of the Phoelarch). there's cold versions called Vazalkyon and the bird is called a Vazalka.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:25 pm

Kaorti: Pseudonatural corruption. A creature touched must make a fortitude or become permenantly unable to survive outside of the Far Realm without a resin suit, taking 1d6 constitution damage per round. Or maybe the chameleon just learns the secret of making resin equipment.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:29 pm

Protean Scourge: Split: you get an other copy of yourself, it has the same HP as you, both need to be destroyed to kill you; they can't change shape; and their SLAs per day share the same pool, they're a sorcerer equal to their HD (lvl 12, and they're a CR '12' creature).
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:10 pm

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:You know, on the third look over, I think I'd have no problem at all with this class if it was named "Chameleon". That's really what it looks like to me: the chameleon done well.

I don't follow. It's not a Chameleon. It doesn't gain the powers of any of the races except the Sahuagin. In every other case it provides talents that would be useful for that race's fighting style.
Learning the Mindflayer fighting style doesn't let you mindblast things, it lets you efficiently murder people who have been mind blasted. Learning the Drow fighting style doesn't give you weird bullshit spell-like abilities, it helps you capture and subdue slaves.
The goal in each case is not to say "I'm a troglodyte now!" it's to say "this is the fighting technique that troglodyte warmasters came up with to capitalize on the abilities that troglodytes have, and now I know it too." You don't turn into a troglodyte, and you don't gain a troglodyte's powers. You fight like a troglodyte would fight if they were trained to exploit the powers they have. It's then up to you to get some intra-party synergy going with the Wizard so that there are actually some nauseated foes for you to exploit.
Thri-Kreen stance is some free movement. But it's really a lot of free movement if you happen to have a huge jump mod (because you're a Thri-Kreen, for example). Abeil stance sets up the will-based save-or-dies on your allies with a huge boost to effective save DC. So it's super effective if for example all your allies are equipped with a devastating SoD whose weakness is a poor save DC. And so on.
The Chameleon schtick is more like the Totemist.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:44 pm

I can't help but see the iconic Soldier as being Sosuke-in-D&D-land.
And this being D&D, with wealth-by-level, when I say Sosuke I mean Bonta-kun.
Everyone is now picturing Bonta-kun throat-slitting people who just got mind-blasted.
Note that this class gives a good incentive for the wizard to say "Here, I'll Polymorph YOU" with a spell slot.

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Emerald
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Post by Emerald » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:20 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:

> > CatharzGodfoot wrote:You know, on the third look over, I think I'd have no problem at all with this class if it was named "Chameleon". That's really what it looks like to me: the chameleon done well.

> I don't follow. It's not a Chameleon. It doesn't gain the powers of any of the races except the Sahuagin. In every other case it provides talents that would be useful for that race's fighting style.
> [...]
> The Chameleon schtick is more like the Totemist.
> -Username17

I don't think he means chameleon in the gain-monster-powers Blue Mage sense, but Chameleon as in the PrC that lets you be a fighter today, a rogue the next day, a cleric the day after, and so on. The Soldier does resemble the Chameleon in some respects--"Today, I fight like a dwarf, tomorrow like a gnome," etc.--but I think the resemblance is misleading.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:13 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:

> > CatharzGodfoot wrote:You know, on the third look over, I think I'd have no problem at all with this class if it was named "Chameleon". That's really what it looks like to me: the chameleon done well.

> I don't follow. It's not a Chameleon. It doesn't gain the powers of any of the races except the Sahuagin. In every other case it provides talents that would be useful for that race's fighting style.
> Learning the Mindflayer fighting style doesn't let you mindblast things, it lets you efficiently murder people who have been mind blasted. Learning the Drow fighting style doesn't give you weird bullshit spell-like abilities, it helps you capture and subdue slaves.
> The goal in each case is not to say "I'm a troglodyte now!" it's to say "this is the fighting technique that troglodyte warmasters came up with to capitalize on the abilities that troglodytes have, and now I know it too." You don't turn into a troglodyte, and you don't gain a troglodyte's powers. You fight like a troglodyte would fight if they were trained to exploit the powers they have. It's then up to you to get some intra-party synergy going with the Wizard so that there are actually some nauseated foes for you to exploit.
> Thri-Kreen stance is some free movement. But it's really a lot of free movement if you happen to have a huge jump mod (because you're a Thri-Kreen, for example). Abeil stance sets up the will-based save-or-dies on your allies with a huge boost to effective save DC. So it's super effective if for example all your allies are equipped with a devastating SoD whose weakness is a poor save DC. And so on.
> The Chameleon schtick is more like the Totemist.
> -Username17

That clears things up a bit.
The chameleon schtick is more like the totemist, except the chameleon is intended to pass. To pass, a character needs abilities like wearing shoes. If the design intent is some sort of ideal mercenary, being a master of disguise makes less sense to me.
Perhaps I'm just dense, but I don't see how becoming hidden after hitting someone makes a half-orc more synergistic in a gnomish army than, say, a half-orc army. In the context you give, a lot of the abilities seem to make perfect sense. However, there's a fairly large list of abilities that seem more along the lines of emulation than synergy:
[*]Orc (generic)
[*]Elf (generic)
[*]Gnome (generic)
[*]Human (generic)
[*]Gnoll (generic)
[*]Kuo Toa (emulation)
[*]Myconid (emulation)
[*]Saughin (emulation, as you say)
[*]Yak folk (emulation)
[*]Pixie (emulation)
[*]Doppelganger (emulation)
[*]Nerra (emulation)
[*]Troll (emulation)
[*]Vrock (emulation, although barely -- this is better than their Shiva dance)
[*]Rakshasa (emulation)
[*]Marilith (emulation)
Writing good abilities is a pain in the ass, but unless unless you keep out emulation abilities like the above, it's going to be very much in chameleon territory.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:23 pm

Kidney Punch[/i]: Make a standard attack. If it deals damage, your target must make a fortitude save each round for a number of rounds equal to your level (everybody loves rolling more dice, right?). On any round she fails, she is nauseated.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:27 am

I'm trying to imagine what an actual Illithid Militia/Fascist Junta would look like. Do they have knights riding Beholders? Assault rifles stolen through time as a result of their fucked up timeline?
And a Succubus Militia could only be an awesome thing.

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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:06 am

> Koumei wrote:I'm trying to imagine what an actual Illithid Militia/Fascist Junta would look like. Do they have knights riding Beholders?

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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:28 am

Mindflayers, like all abberations, control species of slave and servitor races. Some get exceptions, or specific types of slaves.
Aboleths get Skum
Neogi get Umber Hulks
From Book of Gears, the suggestion is that the various Vermin races are the most common servitors of the various Aberration 'mastermind' type of races.
Personally, I'd add certain Magical Beasts, Oozes, or other Aberrations to the list of possible fodder for an Aberration's possible minion choices.
Dragons, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, Animals, Outsiders, Constructs and Undead don't really fit as thematically as those other four options, but they still can be used if explained well.
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Post by IGTN » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:13 am

What minions to Athachthchhs keep?
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:13 am

> Koumei wrote:Excellent. I find it fascinating how with Chess, a game that so many people just assume always existed in its current state.

Elephants never could cross the river, but the Paratroopers seem to have been added later, probably about the time The Queen Went Mad
Geez, it's really like an edition war with centuries of history and serious cultural differences behind it
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:03 am

> IGTN wrote:What minions to Athachthchhs keep?

Orcs, goblins, giant spiders.
Also... seeing what Frank meant for the Stance abilities, I've got a better understanding of what they should do.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:22 am

> Catharz wrote:Perhaps I'm just dense, but I don't see how becoming hidden after hitting someone makes a half-orc more synergistic in a gnomish army than, say, a half-orc army.

Well, that's the signature ability of the Gnome Giant Slayer. It's a class that sucks, but it's the fighting style people evidently think Gnomes should have.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:23 pm

Is it intended that this class can use Feats to gain extra Stances and Maneuver slots, as per Weeaboo Fightan Magic?
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