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## [Politics]The Right to Arm Bears in a Crowded Theater

Mundane & Pointless Stuff I Must Share: The Off Topic Forum

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Drolyt
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Post by Drolyt » Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:07 pm

> talozin wrote:It is stupid not to try to get away when a racist white dude who has attacked you in the past comes onto your porch and says "I'm gonna stab you, n-----." You'll get no argument from me on that. But the kid got 18-20 years after he pled down to manslaughter. And that is not a reasonable sentence for defending yourself from a racist who attacks you on your own porch.

Was that far too harsh a sentence? Hell yes. But I agree with the principle that if he could have just went inside without anyone getting hurt he should have, because that is preferable to someone dying, even if that someone is a racist bastard. If he could not have done that then obviously we have a serious miscarriage of justice.
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Grek
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  Posts: 3110
  Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:37 pm

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Post by Grek » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:15 pm

> Drolyt wrote:In fact Grek's line of reasoning seems to suggest we shouldn't do that, if it isn't okay for people to kill in order to defend their lives how in the fuck is it okay to put people through living hell to punish them?

Indeed, I also believe that the current prison system is monstrous and there needs to be either a massive overhaul in conditions in US prisons, or a change away from using imprisonment as the default punishment for serious crimes.

> FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.

> Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.

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Stahlseele
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  Posts: 5930
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  Location: Hamburg, Germany

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Post by Stahlseele » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:28 pm

so how would you deal with them then?
forced organ donations?
make them be living crash test dummies and test subjects for untested medicine to further research into safety for others?
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:33 pm

> Stahlseele wrote:so how would you deal with them then?
> forced organ donations?
> make them be living crash test dummies and test subjects for untested medicine to further research into safety for others?

No, people who kill someone in self defense should go to 20 year education camp where it is drilled into them that the correct response in the case of someone killing them is to let themselves be killed.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Grek
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Post by Grek » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:48 pm

> Stahlseele wrote:so how would you deal with them then?

Well, the obvious answer is "less terrible prisons". But if making the prisons not be horrific rape-and-murder pits is not an option for some reason, there's still things you can do:
For non-violent crimes, fines, parole, public shaming and registration can work. I imagine that making convicted burglars go door to door with their parole officer and explain what they did wrong and why they're not going to do it again would be a reasonably effective punishment.
For violent crimes, if imprisonment isn't an option (due to a lack of humane prisons) and the criminal is not bad enough to merit execution, you're pretty boned. Exile is an option, I guess but you'd be hard pressed to find anywhere willing to take violent criminals.
The real answer is "build prisons that are not terrible", though.

> FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.

> Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.

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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:21 pm

But the point of prisons in a modern constitutional democracy is not punishment but resocialization.
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Drolyt
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  Posts: 454
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Post by Drolyt » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:40 pm

> Stahlseele wrote:so how would you deal with them then?
> forced organ donations?
> make them be living crash test dummies and test subjects for untested medicine to further research into safety for others?

That depends largely on the crime but:

- For the most serious crimes prison is the only way to keep the community safe, but prisons should be made more humane. If someone is too dangerous to allow outside of prison they should at least be made relatively safe and comfortable. Most importantly there needs to be means for the prisoner to improve themselves, access to education, artistic expression, counseling, and the like.
  Humane mental institutions should be there for those that clearly need them.
  Drug crimes and the like should involve mandatory rehab.
  Fines are great for nonviolent crimes. Especially financial crimes.
  Community service is always a good option.
  Basically reserve prison for only the most serious crimes and introduce more humane sentences and you will have more money to make the prisons humane.

> Grek wrote:public shaming and registration

What the fuck is wrong with you? If the point is to rehabilitate you need to allow people to reintegrate into society after they have served their sentence. You are trying to make this more difficult.

> zugschef wrote:But the point of prisons in a modern constitutional democracy is not punishment but resocialization.

What are you, Finnish? This might be the ideal, but in the US prisons are little more than organized rape camps and very few countries are much better.
Last edited by Drolyt on Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:14 am

> Drolyt wrote:Drug crimes and the like should involve mandatory rehab.

So, when someone who doesn't use drugs is arrested for selling them they should go to rehab? Yeah, that's a great idea, put all the pushers in the same place as the people who want to avoid drugs.
PS, we know what we would do, the question is what the psychotic Grek who thinks that people should be punished in some way for defending themselves when they had no other option instead of committing suicide.
Last edited by Kaelik on Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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