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MGuy
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### 3.xth Edition House Rules

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Post by MGuy » Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:12 am

I am in the idea stage of what's going to be a pet project of mine I'd like to hear and read up on other people's House Rules. I'm sure people have special rules they use to keep their game going. Now that Trailblazer's out I have a friend yacking my ears off about this rule and that. I'd like to hear how people keep their D20 game going be it 3.x, 4e, Star Wars Saga. D20 modern or whatever and how your (or someone else's) House Rules help the game. Since I've only been introduced to a lot of these game design concepts recently I'm hoping a lot of people review other people's house rules as I am not very likely to be able to pick out most of the things that might be wrong with the numbers.
The first rule of Fatclub. Don't Talk about Fatclub..
If you want a game modded right you have to mod it yourself.

> MGuy wrote:Finally a thread about fighters!

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:50 am

Well, depending on the game:
1) Gate and Wish don't exist.
For some slightly lower powered gaming:
1) Gate and Wish don't Exist.
2) You can't be an Incantatrix or use DMM Persist.
3) No Arcane Thesis.
Or for adding options:
1) Tome rules
2) No you can't be a Tome Fighter.
3) No Incantatrix or DMM Persist.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:54 am

A couple of my favorites...
-No automatic failure on a natural 1
-No, you don't fumble your weapon, either.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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MGuy
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Post by MGuy » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:01 am

I assume with no gate or wish you include similar spells.
Well a few I like to use include but are not limited to:
-I always use Full hp for both monsters and PCs. It pads things up a bit so that important fights against big creatures last a bit longer.
-No Persist
-No Shape shifting abilities (Wild Shape, Polymorph, etc instead give out a few bonuses or are taken out completely)
-No Wish, Miracle, etc
-No time related magic (not even in the plot) I hate time travel and most plots dealing with it.
The first rule of Fatclub. Don't Talk about Fatclub..
If you want a game modded right you have to mod it yourself.

> MGuy wrote:Finally a thread about fighters!

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:11 pm

> MGuy wrote:I assume with no gate or wish you include similar spells.

Not really. Without Wish, Planar Binding is powerful but not more so than many other things.
And Limited Wish and Miracle are mostly fine, since all Miracle does is the parts of wish that aren't a problem.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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God_of_Awesome
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:59 am

No alignments.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:12 am

Kaelik, why use Tome but not the Tome fighter?
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:19 am

> virgileso wrote:Kaelik, why use Tome but not the Tome fighter?

Because Tome Fighter beats the shit out of the other tome classes in their specialties.
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God_of_Awesome
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:53 am

Then what sort of Fighter do you use?
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:17 am

> God_of_Awesome wrote:Then what sort of Fighter do you use?

Fighter exists because people want something to cover "niche concepts other classes don't cover". Tell me a niche that can be covered by Tome fighter that Tome monk, barbarian, samuria, fiendish brute, or rogue doesn't cover.
Edit: To put it another way, how do you function without the swordmage class (3.5)?
Last edited by ubernoob on Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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God_of_Awesome
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:20 am

So not use Fighter at all?
That is a posibility, although not one I particularly like, simply because the Fighter is such a pivotal part of DnD.
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Starmaker
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Post by Starmaker » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:41 am

> ubernoob wrote:Tell me a niche that can be covered by Tome fighter that Tome monk, barbarian, samuria, fiendish brute, or rogue doesn't cover.

um.. ranged weapon-based combatant without flasks and cleric levels?
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sun Aug 30, 2009 8:35 am

> Starmaker wrote:

> > ubernoob wrote:Tell me a niche that can be covered by Tome fighter that Tome monk, barbarian, samuria, fiendish brute, or rogue doesn't cover.

> um.. ranged weapon-based combatant without flasks and cleric levels?

Knight does that pretty damn well, actually. If the enemy doesn't damage them with an attack that round, the knight is dealing an extra d6 per class level. Fighter only gets PBS, sniper, and possibly TWF to improve ranged combat. Ranged combat requires three feats tops. Human knight 3 can seriously know everything there is to know about ranged combat from the fighter's point of view.

> God_of_Awesome wrote:So not use Fighter at all?
> That is a posibility, although not one I particularly like, simply because the Fighter is such a pivotal part of DnD.

Well, yeah. You have an emotional attachment to a class with the "fighter" name. Understandable.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:15 pm

Yeah, specialist fighters. Just like specialist wizards are much better for the game.
Having Mr "I'm like you, but instead of 10 class abilities I have 10 feats each of which is better than your class abilities" is not fun for the game.
Any character you could possibly want to make you can make with specialized classes, unless your goal is "character that is better than other peoples character."
I also have a standing policy of "Tell me what you want to be/do, I'll make a class that does at the power level of the other PCs."
So if someone really wanted to be an archer, they either want to do damage, in which case they are a Knight, or they wanted status effects, in which case they are a Monk. Or they want to be better than everyone else, in which case they are a Fighter taking a bunch of feats like Community Material Int Fighter/Mental Weaponry/Combat Style/Blitz/Stupid Fencing feat/and archery feats.
In which case I don't want them in my game.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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God_of_Awesome
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:52 pm

Hmmm.... Ya know, I bet the Knight class can be retooled into a better balance Fighter class.
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ibanez
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Post by ibanez » Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:31 pm

> Starmaker wrote:

> > ubernoob wrote:Tell me a niche that can be covered by Tome fighter that Tome monk, barbarian, samuria, fiendish brute, or rogue doesn't cover.

> um.. ranged weapon-based combatant without flasks and cleric levels?

The tome monk is a good archer, and so is the tome samurai.
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IGTN
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Post by IGTN » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:11 pm

> ibanez wrote: The tome monk is a good archer, and so is the tome samurai.

The Samurai has a lot of AoO abilities that don't work at range. The Knight works better, since Designate Opponent damage does work (and works best) at range.
"No, you can't burn the inn down. It's made of solid fire."
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God_of_Awesome
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:54 pm

If one were to change the Knighthood ability to a Fighter School ability, retooling the ability to better fit the change, the Call Out to 'Taunt,' throw out the Code of Conduct.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:42 pm

That still doesn't allow people who want to play an "Adventurer whose a master with dozens of forms of combat" or a "Warrior-Sage" or a "Warrior-Therapist". Those characters are not only characters out of fiction, but characters out of history. So the system needs to be able to allow those characters to exist. For every Dux Artourious, there are probably a dozen Sir Bors. Enforcing sameness will lead to certain players who are literally bored that they're stuck with any specifc schtick.
I actually specifically design my own characters so that there is no specific thing that they are stuck doing, because I get bored if there's something that is going on that I can't participate in. I've always done this, even when playing a Fighter in 2nd Ed I'd pick up a mix of weapons; specialize in something that had no real weaknesses (maces, good for everything from Oozes, to Skeletons or just people's skull); or put all of my proficiency points into the "narrow groups" that the Fighter's Handbook had listed.
In the course of a game, playing a character that is ever cut off from being able to participate in a meaningful way is the last thing that I want to do. If there's diplomacy, I want to be an active player, if there's intelligence that's needed, I want to be an active participant in it's aquiring or using, if there's combat I want to be able to keep up with the best members of the group.
The only reason that a character I'm playing should not be active in a scene in the game is because I, as a player, choose to not participate, not because my character can't participate.
Heck, none of the specialist classes allow a person to play Duncan Idaho, Cu Cullain, Cao Cao, Richard III, Rostram or Guan Yu, and frankly, that's not a good thing.
and now I just realized something ... The reason for the "remove an ability, to pick up something scene-appropriate" rule that I came up with for the 4uccess game system, is that I feel that Players shouldn't suddenly become boned when there's something that they want to interact with, but the game won't allow it because they didn't pick that ability the last time they leveled up. Players must be able to participate in any, and all aspects of the game.
I think that watching movies or reading books with protagonists that use the 7 or 12 part Hero's journey are a good way to figure out what sort of mechanics are needed to support that sort of narration in the game. I've watched Stardust a couple of times now (which is, very unusual for me), since it's got a lot of the sorts of scenes and characters, and character development that people seem to want in their games.
The only other movies that ever rate "must rewatch" for me have been Fight Club, b/c of the hidden images, and .... actually, just Fight Club. I hate rewatching a movie, it actually sort of bores me to see a movie a second time. That's my thing I guess, I bore easily.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:26 pm

1) Didn't we establish that you should spoiler your ongoing screeds about how much you love your characters?
2) Warrior Sages are Monks. Warrior Therapists are non existant and shouldn't exist.
I get that you want your character to be as good as a Samurai at crowd control, as good as a Barbarian and slugging it out, as good at damage as a Knight, as good at status effects as a Monk, as good with skills as a Rogue, and as good at spells as a Wizard.
What I am telling you is that you can go die in a fire. No one else in the group wants you to be the best 100% of the time. You found some in person group who apparently all suck and love it when you bail them out. Great. Do that for them. But shut the hell up about how there should be a character class "Do everything better than you." There shouldn't be.
Characters do things. Classes do specific things. Classes that do everything are bad classes.
No you can't be as skilled as a Rogue, do as much damage as a Rogue or Samurai or Barbarian, Tank and protect others as well as a Barbarian or Knight, Plow through hordes as well as a Samurai or Barbarian, Shoot Arrows as well as a Knight or Monk, Pull out the magic as well as a Monk or Jester, ect.
That's not a character class. That's called a DMPC, and they aren't fucking allowed.
Lots of people want to play "I do everything!" classes.
There are two types of "I do everything!" classes. Ones that suck because they never perform level appropriate actions, and ones that suck because they always perform level appropriate actions of every possible kind.
Both of them suck.
I am motherfucking serious JE. Next time you start to think about explaining how you want to do everything better than everyone else all the time, chop off your damn fingers and don't type it.
We don't want to hear it.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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God_of_Awesome
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:32 pm

Jebus, Kaelik, that hostility is unneccesary. First off, you came off as a major jerk. At least JE spelled out a well worded thesis instead of resorting to petty insults.
In a way, you are right. A character that can equal you at every turn is annoying but JE is right too; being useless at any turn is boring.
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ibanez
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Post by ibanez » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:40 pm

> IGTN wrote:

> > ibanez wrote: The tome monk is a good archer, and so is the tome samurai.

> The Samurai has a lot of AoO abilities that don't work at range.

Why not? The point blank shot feat lets you threaten out 30' with your bow at level 11, the same level you can start taking all of your AOO's on a person as an immediate action with the samurai. What other abilities are you talking about?
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IGTN
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Post by IGTN » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:42 pm

So how would we fix the Tome Fighter to bring it into line with the other Tome classes?
I could see cutting the skill points and dropping the bonus feats, or making the bonus feats be picked from a crappy list (i.e., no Tome feats). That way you have a versatile shutdown specialist. Maybe the changeable feat could even stay as a Tome feat.
As for a crappy bonus feat list (All of these feats are from the SRD):
Alertness, Animal Affinity, Dodge and it's tree, Endurance and Diehard, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike and its tree, Lightning Reflexes, Mounted Combat and its tree, Iron Will, Point-Blank Shot and its tree except for Rapid Shot and Manyshot, any feat with Power Attack as a prerequisite except Cleave/Great Cleave and Improved Sunder, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Run, Stealthy, Toughness, and Weapon Focus and its tree.
@Ibanez: Forgot that about Point Blank Shot. Samurai Archers are still less than viable until level 11.
Their other abilities: Horde Breaker bonus feat (most of its abilities never work at range)
Whirlwind bonus feat (never works at range)
Iaijutsu Focus (Just because he can make AoOs under some circumstances out to 30' doesn't mean that the area is threatened)
Note that basic Iaijutsu does work, so you can grab, for example, Weapon Finesse, and go to town (one attack as a swift action).
Also remember that Ghost Touch projectile weapons do not share the property with their ammunition, so the Samurai basically gains "ghosts can grab your bow by the grandfather and rip it out of your hands" as the entirety of Ghost Touch.
Last edited by IGTN on Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
"No, you can't burn the inn down. It's made of solid fire."
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:48 pm

> God_of_Awesome wrote:Jebus, Kaelik, that hostility is unneccesary. First off, you came off as a major jerk. At least JE spelled out a well worded thesis instead of resorting to petty insults.
> In a way, you are right. A character that can equal you at every turn is annoying but JE is right too; being useless at any turn is boring.

You are an idiot.
1) The hostility is warranted because every time someone starts discussing anything meaningful, JE has to tell everyone he loves making other people suck his cock.
2) I am a major jerk. I just happen to be a major jerk who is right.
3) "A well worded thesis"? Are you smoking crack? His well worded thesis was "I want to play masters of everything, like single author fiction characters who have side-kicks instead of party members." Fluffed up with a bunch of bullshit about how awesome he is.
4) My 'petty insults' consisted of more game design theory than previously existed in this thread. When you contribute positively to anything ever, get back to me on that.
5) JE is not right, because JE is never right, because all JE talks about is how much he loves himself. JE didn't say 'it's bad to be useless' (Well he did, but so has everyone else ever alive) he said that it's bad to ever be less useful than anyone else. He absolutely demands that his character fight as well as every other character in every other combat, solve puzzles as well as utility casters, have the skills of a rogue, and never be confined in any way ever.
Tome Knights, Tome Monks, Jesters, Tome Barbarians these are all characters that are never useless.
Tome Fighters are characters that make all of them useless by being as good as them at everything they are good at, and better at everything else.
JE likes to be the best all the time. He can shove it up his ass and die. In a game, you don't get to be the best all the time. It's design intent that the Knight does less damage than the Barbarian when tanking and more when not.
A character that does as much damage as the Knight's maximum when also denying actions is not a good class, it's a class that makes the Knight worthless.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:55 pm

> IGTN wrote:So how would we fix the Tome Fighter to bring it into line with the other Tome classes?
> I could see cutting the skill points and dropping the bonus feats, or making the bonus feats be picked from a crappy list (i.e., no Tome feats). That way you have a versatile shutdown specialist. Maybe the changeable feat could even stay as a Tome feat.
> As for a crappy bonus feat list (All of these feats are from the SRD):
> Alertness, Animal Affinity, Dodge and it's tree, Endurance and Diehard, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike and its tree, Lightning Reflexes, Mounted Combat and its tree, Iron Will, Point-Blank Shot and its tree except for Rapid Shot and Manyshot, any feat with Power Attack as a prerequisite except Cleave/Great Cleave and Improved Sunder, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Run, Stealthy, Toughness, and Weapon Focus and its tree.

I like Problem Solver, I like skilled fighter type stuff, it's just not okay to have there be so many bonus feats when you can literally keep adding Tome feats to anything.
A Fighter can pick three things and be better than the best class at all three with the way Tome feats have been working, and we don't want to punish people for making Community Tome feats.
What we need to start with is accepting that There are too many good Tome feats, and there will always be more for everything, so the Tome Fighter gets fewer Bonus feats right off.
He still has foil, which does not suck, extra actions, Problem Solver, more feats than anyone else, and skills and saves.
The issue is figuring out a good balance.
I'd say off the top of my head, half the bonus feats would be Tome, and the other half would be from a shitty list sort of like what you described, but less shitty and with more stuff From ToB or PHB II that is moderately useful but not amazing.
But the character without bonus Tome feats is not actually very good, and every level you get a PHB feat as your class abilities for that level is a bad fucking level.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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