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Cynic
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Post by Cynic » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:02 am

People don't pay much attention to Jeremiah but it is a pretty solid example of JMS' work. Lack of viewership kinda had the show cancelled but he *almost* wrapped it up neatly.
I feel that JMS has a much more solid grasp on screenwriting than he does on comic book writing.
Jayce and the wheeled warriors was very early work for JMS. I don't know if it's "how the mighty have fallen" rather than that's pretty close to where he began. There is a pattern of disillusionment that creeps up with JMS and his work with companies. it seems like he has a lot of disagreements with management about where the story should go and often he quits or capitulates.
I have a fondness for B5 so I don't know if I can really be objective about that.

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

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Tumbling Down
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Post by Tumbling Down » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:12 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:You know? JMS blames Quesada for the whole clusterfuck, but the fact is he did fucking write the damn thing. And every other time he's been given the opportunity to write something it has sucked ass too. And usually involved a shitty time warp caused by Satan.

Look, I really didn't want to dig any of this shit up, because frankly, just looking at it is making me need a drink. But here is an interview where Quesada talks about OMD.
So, while JMS wrote the script for OMD (except, of course, for the last two issues, which Quesada ghost-wrote), the actual story had been written by committee long in advance. This both becase Quesada hated the marriage and killing it was kinda his pet project, and also because they could use the Reality Revision to also undo all the status-quo changes, that would arise from Peter revealing his secret identity during the then-upcomming Civil War atrocity, so JMS was mandated by editorial to stick to the deal with the devil plot.
Now, JMS was also part of the group of people who came up with the framework of the story, and if you want to say that faustian deals smacks of his writing, that is fine with me, since additionally, JMS is also a legendarily cowardly and contemptible man, and not fezzing up to writing a shitty story is totally within the bounds of his normal behaviour.
But if you want to play the blame-game, you also have the smoking gun of Quesada outright saying that making a literal deal with the devil is more heroic than getting a divorce -and easier to explain to your children to boot. Even in the face of parents telling him the exact opposite of that.
Additionally, as editor in chief, it is Quesada's fucking job to put his foot down and make sure that garbage like OMD never see the light of day outside of fanfiction.net. But he did not do that -and not only did he not do it with OMD, he also did not do it the previous time JMS wrote a shitty story, or the time before that.
So regardless of how much blame you want to assign to JMS is for writing shitty fanfiction-tier stories, Joe Quesada must shoulder an equal amount of blame for not being able to spot the problems in stories, which deeply offended 99% of everyone who ever read them, before he let that shit hit the fucking press.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:59 am

> Cynic wrote:I have a fondness for B5 so I don't know if I can really be objective about that.

Likewise. I don't know if I can even claim rose-tinted glasses for the time, because I didn't see the show until 2006, and I couldn't claim to know of any other sci-fi/fantasy series that was better by that point (didn't see Avatar until 2009).
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Shrapnel
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Post by Shrapnel » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:07 am

So, from what I've read since I asked:
One More Day is truly terrible and has a dumbass name, but there is worse out there. It's akin to, say, The Starfighters, but not as bad as the House of the Dead movie.
JMS is a shitty writer, and for the most part no good can come from him.
Joe Quesada also seems to have his fair share of blame for the horridness that OMD and other stories have caused, and also seemed to hated Spidy's marrige because he is against meaningful plot and character development because that isn't how stories work in his mind.
Is that an accurate summary?
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:49 am

I've also heard hearsay about Quesada having lost his mother recently, and the idea of Spider-Man doing anything to save his mother-figure resonated strongly with him.
Just something that I remember reading about somewhere
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:19 am

> Shrapnel wrote:Is that an accurate summary?

Yes. One More Day isn't actually the worst thing that came out of Marvel, it isn't the worst thing to come out of Spider Man, and it isn't even the worst thing to come out of JMS' run on Spider Man. However, the fact that it happened is something that resonates with people as terrible even outside the comics community. It's the kind of thing that happens to be awful in a way that is really obviously awful even to people who don't follow the story and don't know who all the characters are.
I mean, Sins Past is probably the worst thing ever. But the many levels at which Gwen Stacy having an affair with Norman Osbourne and then giving birth in France between her relationship troubles with Peter and her death at the hands of the Green Goblin is disgusting and nonsensical aren't necessarily apparent to people who aren't familiar with the characters. Like how Norman Osbourne is the creepy and abusive father of one of Gwen Stacy's friends, or how there wasn't anywhere near enough time for that to have happened. Or any of the myriad other levels of fucked up that plot is when you look at it closely (like how Sarah Stacy is a sexualized grade school age child).
But One More Day is still the go to example of Marvel just completely fucking losing it. Because that's the one where you don't have to go into any of the character backstories or implications. "Spider Man made a deal with Satan to break up his marriage and abort his baby in order to save an old woman who is probably going to die soon anyway." That sentence is all you need to say in order to get universal agreement that something horrible happened that never should have.
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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:22 pm

> Sigil wrote:That was literally when I stopped reading Spider-Man. Sacrafice the lives and happiness of your family (and whoever else, you're changing the time line), or let an old person die?
> Wrong choice Spider-Man, wrong choice.

Spider-Man really didn't have a much of a chance for a happy family life at the time. He was on the run from the government and being hunted by assassins at the same time. Kingpin put a bounty on his head, he was a wanted fugitive, and everyone knew who he was, so short of comic book plastic surgery he couldn't ever have a normal life again and neither could MJ.
There are logical reasons for having an abortion at the time. It's not like it's a good idea to have a baby when on the run from practically everyone. There were logical reasons for breaking up in that situation. The problem is that they didn't use the logical reasons. They didn't even use the emotionally compelling reasons. They used a deal with the devil. There are plenty of people who would take a deal from Mephisto. Peter Parker isn't one of them. Even at rock bottom he should have enough sense to tell the devil to go screw himself because he knows that these deals never work out.
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Sigil
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Post by Sigil » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:42 pm

Yeah, I would have found a plot arc where MJ just goes and gets a normal abortion and they both go get magic plastic surgery from Dr. Strange better than time-warp Satan deals.
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:23 pm

i just read through Avengers VS X-Men . . i have no words . .
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:44 pm

> sabs wrote:I will give that to Frank. I don't even LIKE DC that much, and I find Green Arrow only slightly amusing, and even I know who Roy Harper is.

Honestly, I had to look him up on Wikipedia to know that he doesn't have AIDS. I mean, you've got a Heroin addict Speedy and a HIV positive Speedy, it just seems like they should go together since sharing needles is a fairly common way to spread HIV.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:38 pm

> Stahlseele wrote:Mr.Freeze is the best villain in all the animated series.

The salvaging of Mr. Freeze is probably the single deftest trick in B:TA but I'd still give the edge to the Joker since I think sometimes people forget how lousy of a character he can be in the wrong hands. For people like myself who who prefer sadistic narcissist Joker over creepy nihilist Joker, the B:TAS and Mark Hamill's voice acting remains a gold standard. I mean, come on, how great is this?
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:15 pm

Yes, ok, The J-Man is pretty good, but he just ain't as Cool
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Cynic
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Post by Cynic » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:33 pm

It is sad that Scarface and The Penguin have been relegated to the role of either middlemen or the villain of a single issue. Also, I would love to see more femme fatales fighting all of the Bat family -- Poison Ivy and Catwoman seem to have been reformed into anti-heroes. Talia al-ghul is good/bad/indifferent based on the whims of the writer of the week. Harley seems to be the only female villain but she doesn't really approach the standard definition of the noir femme fatale.

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:17 pm

Batman Beyond hat Inque at least.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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erik
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Post by erik » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:19 pm

> Stahlseele wrote:Batman Beyond hat Inque at least.

And Curaré. Of course despite her having been in at least 2 episodes as a main antagonist, to quote batman wiki, "Curaré has no speaking lines, other than a few grunts."
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:09 am

I think that if Batman is missing anything, it's a dedicated Mad Scientist antagonist. Scarecrow doesn't really cut it. It doesn't have to be Dr. Strange, but he has squatter's rights.
In fact, I think it might be for the best if he had two Mad Scientist antagonists. Dr. Strange could be on the biological/chemical side who makes things like giant monster men and technical zombies; some new villain could be like a computer scientist Shadowrunner rigger/hacker who does things like make spider-bots and hacks things Die Hard 4 style. Both of course are also physicists, since you can't have a Mad Scientist character without those disciplines.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:10 am

Also, while I'm wishing for ponies, I'd like a dedicated Batman/Skullgirls crossover. The Skullgirls universe seems absolutely perfect for Batman. Or maybe I just love Batman and I want to see him punch grimdark right in the throat.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:29 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:I think that if Batman is missing anything, it's a dedicated Mad Scientist antagonist. Scarecrow doesn't really cut it. It doesn't have to be Dr. Strange, but he has squatter's rights.
> In fact, I think it might be for the best if he had two Mad Scientist antagonists. Dr. Strange could be on the biological/chemical side who makes things like giant monster men and technical zombies; some new villain could be like a computer scientist Shadowrunner rigger/hacker who does things like make spider-bots and hacks things Die Hard 4 style. Both of course are also physicists, since you can't have a Mad Scientist character without those disciplines.

Mad Hatter, Mr. Freeze, Dollmaker, and Doctor Death all seem to fit the bill.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:48 am

I don't know who Dollmaker and Dr. Death is.
However, when I said Mad Scientist, I don't mean a criminal or psychopath or radical who uses super-science to achieve their hearts' desire; I mean a Mad Scientist for whom the Mad Science is an end unto itself. Out of Batman's famous Rogue's Gallery, Scarecrow comes the closest but fear is a narrow schtick.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:10 am

I'd find it hilarious (and interesting) if Scarecrow or the Riddler (who does have a thing for gadgetry) started contracting work for other villains, to pay the bills/fund their own activities.
Last edited by Maxus on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:14 am

Yeah, because that worked so well for Taskmaster.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:15 am

> Ancient History wrote:Yeah, because that worked so well for Taskmaster.

Keep in mind about half of my DC villains come from playing the Batman: Arkham games.
So I take it Taskmaster sucks?
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:30 am

Taskmaster is one of the Marvel Universes' buttmonkeys/karma sponges, so yes he sucks - but here's a thing: his general gimmick was that most of the time he wasn't a villain, he was a guy that would train other villains (or their mooks) in various fighting styles (including training passable expies of Spider-Man, Captain America, and Hawkeye). He eventually pretty much gave up the business because of it's fatal flaw: all of his customers needed training. Which generally meant they weren't competent or successful enough to pay him or make crime pay on their own.
So, you can pretty much see how with mad scientists that's going to be an issue. If somebody else is fronting your hardware/plots/training, then what exactly are you bringing to the equation?
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:35 am

He got Beat up by Deadpool.
While Deadpool was bound.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Cynic
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Post by Cynic » Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:55 am

> Stahlseele wrote:He got Beat up by Deadpool.
> While Deadpool was bound.

It's all meta, baby.
Deadpool doesn't need hands or powers. He just needs to think it and anything will happen. I fear this will become even more so after the coming game.

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

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