# The Gaming Den

Welcome to the Gaming Den.

Skip to content

## 4e is too verbose

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply

- Print view

32 posts

- 1
- 2
- Next

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### 4e is too verbose

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:05 am

12 thousand words is a lot to describe a character class. But 4e goes way beyond that in its over-verbosity. Let's consider the basic core books:

Player's Handbook | 200,000 words
Dungeon Master's Guide | 150,000 words
Monster Manual | 175,000 words
Moby Dick | 187,000 words
Atlas Shrugged | 540,000 words

OK? That's fucked up. It is not reasonable to expect a 14 year old to read more than a half million words before they can DM a frickin game.
-Username17
Top

TheFlatline
  Prince
  Posts: 2606
  Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:43 pm

###

- Quote

Post by TheFlatline » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:13 am

Holy shit the PHB can't be 200,000 words... One of those doorstop novels that pass for the Wheel of Time clocks in around 250-300,000 words, and that's like 600 pages hardcover.
To give perspective, your average 400 page paperback fantasy novel is around 120,000 words long
Then again, the print is tiny compared to a hardcover. And there are 2-300 pages in the PHB if memory serves.
This is just... disgusting...
Last edited by TheFlatline on Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:59 am

It sure can. The PHB 1 is 316 pages. And it's not a novel sized - but a full sized coffee table book. One of those pages is worth about 800 words. The only reason the word count is so low is because it keeps calling time for full-page art an charts and stuff.
Now, the latter books are more restrained. The PHB 2 and 3 are both 224 pages, and Monster Manual 2 and 3 are as well, and along with the DMG 2 clock in at about 150,000 words each (The DMG 2 is 155k if you care about 3 sig figs). Of course, so is the original Adventurer's Vault.
The XXX Power books are shorter. They are 160 pages a piece and clock in at around 100k words a piece. Adventurer's Vault 2 is one of these.
And then we got the stuff that is only tangentially relevant to the franchise that no one likes or cares about. Open Grave is about 150k, Draconomicon I: Chromatic Dragons is ~175k. Draconomicon II: Fucking Metallic Dragons You Don't Care About is another 150k. Underdark is about 100k, so is Manual of the Planes and its sister publications: The Plane Below, The Plane Above, and The Demonomicon.

Draconomicon II: Chromatic Dragons | 175,000 Words
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide | 175,000 Words
Eberron Campaign Guide | 175,000 Words
Player's Handbook 2 | 150,000 Words
Dungeon Master's Guide 2 | 150,000 Words
Monster Manual 2 | 150,000 Words
Player's Handbook 3 | 150,000 Words
Monster Manual 3 | 150,000 Words
Adventurer's Vault | 150,000 Words
Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead | 150,000 Words
Draconomicon II: Metallic Dragons | 150,000 Words
Martial Power | 100,000 Words
Arcane Power | 100,000 Words
Divine Power | 100,000 Words
Primal Power | 100,000 Words
Psionic Power | 100,000 Words
Adventurer's Vault 2 | 100,000 Words
Martial Power 2 | 100,000 Words
Underdark | 100,000 Words
Dungeondelve | 100,000 Words
Manual of the Planes | 100,000 Words
The Plane Below: Elemental Chaos | 100,000 Words
The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea | 100,000 Words
The Demonomicon | 100,000 Words
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide | 100,000 Words
Eberron Player's Guide | 100,000 Words
Player's Strategy Guide | 100,000 Words
The Combined Works of the Wheel of Time | 3,430,682 words

4e is too verbose. I didn't even include stuff like Hammerfast, because I consider it to kind of be an adventure. Also, I did not include Darksun, because it seems unlikely to ever have its classes addressed in Adventurer's Vault or Arcane Power supplements.
-Username17
Top

TheFlatline
  Prince
  Posts: 2606
  Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:43 pm

###

- Quote

Post by TheFlatline » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:05 am

What could you possibly have to say about metallic dragons that takes up a 450 page hardcover novel? Especially after they're stated up in the MM (or are they in 4th ed? I remember hearing somewhere that dragons weren't in MM1).
After that kind of infodump I should never have to read another syllable on dragons ever again.
Top

Blasted
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 722
  Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 5:41 am

###

- Quote

Post by Blasted » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:08 am

More to the point, why after the 220 page equivalent masterpiece, do you need a second go at a dragon book?

> King Francis I's Mother said wrote:The love between the kings was not just of the beard, but of the heart

Top

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:27 am

> Blasted wrote:More to the point, why after the 220 page equivalent masterpiece, do you need a second go at a dragon book?

256 pages. The Chromatic Dragons book is 256 pages and the Metallic Dragons book is 224. The Chromatic Dragons get stats in the Monster Manual1, and the Metallic Dragons get stats in the Monster Manual 2.
I haven't been able to bring myself to read either, just like I have never cover-cover read any of the nWoD expansion splats (Geist is over 240,000 words by itself). But from what I have been told, one of the Dragon books takes time to detail encounters in jungle temples or some shit.
I think it is important to note that the PHBs, the Monster Manuals, and the DMGs are collectively about 1.3 million words long. If you throw in the books like Eberron Player's Guide that have extra core classes, you could have read the combined volumes of In Search of Lost Time by Proust before even touching an expansion option book like Adventurer's Vault or Martial Power.
-Username17
Top

Lago PARANOIA
  Invincible Overlord
  Posts: 10555
  Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am

###

- Quote

Post by Lago PARANOIA » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:21 pm

Frank, that is just awesome.
If it's not too much trouble, could you do a comparison with the books of other D&D editions? Maybe even other games like WoD and Shadowrun?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

Top

souran
  Duke
  Posts: 1113
  Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:29 pm

###

- Quote

Post by souran » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:43 pm

Hmmm,
How many of those pages in the PHB are rules and how many are powers/magic items?
We all know that a lot of space in each phb is taken up with what are essentially page layouts of magic cards. I am curious what happens if you take out all the power that are presented in list format what the word count is? I seem to remember being able to read through the 4e rulebook in much less time than the 3e rulebook (and scads less time than the dense and painful 2e rulebook) because if you don't read the 4-6 pages of powers attached to each class then "rules" for the game seemed pretty brief.
Perhaphs these pages should all be in a "powers index" similar to the spell indexes of previous editions. However, the 4e rulebooks are fundamentally, NOT supposed to be read word for word. The numerous lists inflate word count and the intention was that you coudl play without reading every power. Without adjusting for this this whole exercise seems like saying you can't play magic without having seen the text on every card in the game.
Honestly, including the monster manual is pretty silly. Thats like saying the National Electrical Code is to long. Its a reference document to be utilzied by its specific subsections. There is no need to read it end to end.
Last edited by souran on Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top

virgil
  King
  Posts: 6339
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by virgil » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:44 pm

What's the word count on the core book sets for 3.5? If I recall, all three of them were 320 pages; which makes the DMG and MM far larger than their 4E counterparts.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Top

hogarth
  Prince
  Posts: 4582
  Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:00 pm
  Location: Toronto

###

- Quote

Post by hogarth » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:46 pm

Wow, that's just crazy how long those books are.
But I don't think the intent is that you read the DMG cover to cover before running a game; it's a reference book, and you refer to it as needed. That would be like reading the entire "Time-Life Guide to Plumbing Repairs" to fix a leaky faucet. Similarly, you don't need to know every power for every class before starting to play a 1st level fighter. You probably should read every power for every class, just so you know how much certain classes will suck in the future, but I don't think that's the intent.
I have a lot of sentimental memories of browsing through reference books (RPG or non-RPG). For instance, the 1e DMG has lots of interesting useless tidbits, from random prostitute tables, to Boot Hill conversion notes, to the reputed magical qualities of gemstones, to bad advice on using monsters as PCs. I spent a lot of hours happily poring through that book. Ah...nostalgia!
Top

Lago PARANOIA
  Invincible Overlord
  Posts: 10555
  Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am

###

- Quote

Post by Lago PARANOIA » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:02 pm

In all seriousness, though, this is the problem when you pay writers by word count. They tend to write up too much unnecessary shit on a page. I sort of understand the underlying thought process behind this, what with wanting to get your money's worth. But it's just too cumbersome and too much of an entry barrier into the hobby.
The future editions of D&D basically has these options at this point:
1) Cut down on the florid pose.
2) Make the prose engaging so it isn't a chore to slug through. This is really hard, since people complain about the length of a Harry Potter novel. You can't rely on just this alone.
3) Rely more on pictures and comics. Full-page pictures of whatever locale or monster you want to whinge on about should be the norm. They don't have to be sprawling mosaics all of the time either. You can save people a lot of reading by, for example, instead of taking up a page to describe all of the sights and attractions of the Friendly Arms Inn using that same page to show a zoomed-out isometric map of the floors and doing zoomed-in insets of what's going on in the Inn. So you'd get a depiction of the 1st floor and a single zoomed-in panel would show the bar stocked with all kinds of wicked-sweet booze, another panel would show filthy adventures sleeping on the floor by the fireplace, another panel would show young maidens splashing each other in the artificial bath, etc..
4) Print an 'Introduction Manual' version of D&D which has the same goal as Intro to AD&D or D&D Essentials. But instead of making this seem like an unconnected product line that has nothing to do with the Big Boyz, every effort should be made to integrate it into the core rules.
Probably the most successful strategy would involve some combination of the above but damn, something should be done.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

Top

hogarth
  Prince
  Posts: 4582
  Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:00 pm
  Location: Toronto

###

- Quote

Post by hogarth » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:15 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:In all seriousness, though, this is the problem when you pay writers by word count. They tend to write up too much unnecessary shit on a page.

Certainly some of the content of the 3.5 DMG (say) is unnecessary, but I think that having rules for suffocation and forest fires is a good thing, not a bad thing. And yet I don't think its necessary (or even useful) for a newbie DM to read the rules on suffocation and forest fires before DMing his first game. Maybe that kind of stuff could be put into a hypothetical Wilderness Manual, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in having it in one book instead of two.
Top

Josh_Kablack
  King
  Posts: 5317
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: Online. duh

###

- Quote

Post by Josh_Kablack » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:58 pm

Well the 4e power format all but guarantees that each of the key words is used 2-4 times in each power description

> Healing Strike Cleric Attack 1
> Divine radiance gleams from your weapon. When you smite your
> enemy, your deity bestows a minor blessing in the form of healing
> for you or one of your allies.
> Encounter * Divine, Healing, Radiant, Weapon
> Standard Action Melee weapon
> Target: One creature
> Attack: Strength vs. AC
> Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier radiant damage, and the
> target is marked until the end of your next turn. In
> addition, you or one ally within 5 squares of you can
> spend a healing surge.

Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Tue May 13, 2014 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Top

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:53 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Frank, that is just awesome.
> If it's not too much trouble, could you do a comparison with the books of other D&D editions? Maybe even other games like WoD and Shadowrun?

That seems pretty reasonable. Other companies have much less discipline than WotC, and two books in the same series will often be off by dozens of pages and as much as a hundred thousand words. Where WotC has essentially 3 Supplement lengths (one of which appears to be discontinued), Shadowrun and WoD will come in with page counts in any multiple of eight.
Shadowrun

SR4 | 265,000 words.
SR4A | 300,000 words.
Street Magic | 147,000 words.
Augmentation | 128,000 words.
Arsenal | 140,000 words.
Unwired | 165,000 words.
Runner's Companion | 139,000 words.
Ends of the Matrix 4.01 | 55,000 words.
Emergence | 100,000 words.
Runner Havens | 119,000 words.
Corporate Enclaves | 118,000 words.
Feral Cities | 118,000 words.

New World of Darkness

World of Darkness Core | 205,000 words.
Vampire: The Requiem | 233,000 words.
Mage: The Awakening | 301,000 words.
Werewolf: The Forsaken | 240,000 words.
Promethean: The Created | 205,000 words.
Changeling: The Lost | 259,000 words.
Geist: The Sin Eating | 240,000 words.
Armory | 150,000 words.
Book of Spirits | 138,000 words.
Dogs of War | 88,000 words.
Ghost Stories | 90,000 words.
Immortals | 99,000 words.
Chicago | 323,000 words.
Inferno | 116,000 words.
Innocents | 204,000 words.
Midnight Roads | 90,000 words.
Mysterious Places | 100,000 words.
Reliquary | 118,000 words.
Second Sight | 122,000 words.
Shadows of Mexico | 137,000 words.
Shadows of the UK | 151,000 words.
Skin Changers | 94,000 words.
Tales From the 13th Precinct | 103,000 words.
Urban Legends | 92,000 words.
Night Horrors: Immortal Sinners | 100,000 words.
Ancient Bloodlines | 113,000 words.
Ancient Mysteries | 120,000 words.
Belial's Brood | 101,000 words.
Bloodlines: The Chosen | 95,000 words.
Bloodlines: The Legendary | 100,000 words.
City of the Damned: New Orleans | 99,000 words.
Clan Daeva: Kiss of the Succubus | 76,000 words.
Clan Ventrue: Lords Over the Damned | 92,000 words.
Clan Mekhet: Shadows in the Dark | 81,000 words.
Clan Nosferatu: The Beast in the Blood | 78,000 words.
Clan Gangrel: Savage Macabre | 79,000 words.
Damnation City | 114,000 words.

You know what? I'm not even half done with the WoD books, but I think I have made my point.
Religious Texts

The New Testament (Greek) | 138,000 words.
Mission Earth (all 10 volumes) | 1,200,000 words.
Koran | 80,000 words.

-Username17
Top

Crissa
  King
  Posts: 6720
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: Santa Cruz

###

- Quote

Post by Crissa » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:49 pm

I wanna go back to when the Monster Manual was bigger than the DMG and PHB combined. Because it's like an encyclopedia or dictionary - you seriously aren't expected to know every damn monster; but you will need to know most of the PHB.
-Crissa
Top

TheFlatline
  Prince
  Posts: 2606
  Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:43 pm

###

- Quote

Post by TheFlatline » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:56 pm

> Crissa wrote:I wanna go back to when the Monster Manual was bigger than the DMG and PHB combined. Because it's like an encyclopedia or dictionary - you seriously aren't expected to know every damn monster; but you will need to know most of the PHB.
> -Crissa

Yes but you triple your income when you divide the MM into 3 books.
Top

Crissa
  King
  Posts: 6720
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: Santa Cruz

###

- Quote

Post by Crissa » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:44 pm

> TheFlatline wrote:[Yes but you triple your income when you divide the MM into 3 books.

Just as long as they have a combined index.
-Crissa
Top

hogarth
  Prince
  Posts: 4582
  Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:00 pm
  Location: Toronto

###

- Quote

Post by hogarth » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:48 pm

> Crissa wrote:I wanna go back to when the Monster Manual was bigger than the DMG and PHB combined.

When was this? The 1e AD&D DMG was way thicker than the 1e AD&D Monster Manual.
Last edited by hogarth on Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top

Maj
  Prince
  Posts: 4705
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: Shelton, Washington, USA

###

- Quote

Post by Maj » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:10 pm

I found this free software for counting words in pdf files, and I counted the words in my three copies of the PHB and two of the DMGs (my 3.5 DMG pdf is all images, not text).

Player's Handbook 3.0 (no glossary or index) | 272,144 words
Player's Handbook 3.5 (includes glossary and index) | 328,556 words
Player's Handbook 4E (includes index) | 210,420 words
DMG 3.0 | 255,558 words
DMG 4E | 155,120 words

Last edited by Maj on Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Top

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:33 pm

Maj, those numbers appear to be consistently on the large size by several thousand words. Maybe it's picking up page breaks as text somehow? I'm not sure. Although some of it can be made up by counting stuff in the index or table of contents as "words" - it seems a little large even for that.
-Username17
Top

Orca
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 877
  Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:31 am

###

- Quote

Post by Orca » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:00 pm

> hogarth wrote:

> > Crissa wrote:I wanna go back to when the Monster Manual was bigger than the DMG and PHB combined.

> When was this? The 1e AD&D DMG was way thicker than the 1e AD&D Monster Manual.

Probably 2nd ed? I remember a Monstrous Compendium which was in ringbinder format so you could add more supplements as they came out.
Top

Cynic
  Prince
  Posts: 2776
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Cynic » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:38 pm

So this is a question on how they pay the writers.
Are they using a per word rate? Because that's an exorbitant fee.

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

Top

hogarth
  Prince
  Posts: 4582
  Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:00 pm
  Location: Toronto

###

- Quote

Post by hogarth » Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:29 am

> Orca wrote:

> > hogarth wrote:

> > > Crissa wrote:I wanna go back to when the Monster Manual was bigger than the DMG and PHB combined.

> > When was this? The 1e AD&D DMG was way thicker than the 1e AD&D Monster Manual.

> Probably 2nd ed? I remember a Monstrous Compendium which was in ringbinder format so you could add more supplements as they came out.

The first volume was 144 pages, according to this page, and my 2e PHB is 256 pages. So, no.
Top

Crissa
  King
  Posts: 6720
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: Santa Cruz

###

- Quote

Post by Crissa » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:29 am

It was 2e AD&D.
-Crissa
Top

Maj
  Prince
  Posts: 4705
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: Shelton, Washington, USA

###

- Quote

Post by Maj » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:36 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:Maj, those numbers appear to be consistently on the large size by several thousand words. Maybe it's picking up page breaks as text somehow? I'm not sure. Although some of it can be made up by counting stuff in the index or table of contents as "words" - it seems a little large even for that.
> -Username17

I linked to the software because I didn't know how it worked. The numbers are literally just raw output.
Top
Post Reply

- Print view

Display:
Sort by:
Direction:

32 posts

- 1
- 2
- Next

Return to “In My Humble Opinion...”

Jump to

- Main
- ↳ About the Gaming Den
- ↳ In My Humble Opinion...
- ↳ I Gave the Mouse a Cookie...
- ↳ In The Trenches
- ↳ It's My Own Invention...
- ↳ MPSIMS