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fbmf
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Post by fbmf » Tue May 22, 2012 8:35 pm

Thor was only half a movie. I'm not a Thor fan so the movie didn't hurt my feelings, but that movie only existed to introduce Hawkeye (which it barely did) and Thor, and be a prequel for The Avengers plot.
No doubt Avengers was an awesome flick.
Game On,
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Tue May 22, 2012 8:45 pm

@Sabs: Oh. that's what I get for skimming.
Last edited by Prak on Tue May 22, 2012 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Neeeek
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Post by Neeeek » Wed May 23, 2012 3:01 am

> Maxus wrote: Also, it's likely very petty of me, but I keep seeing Joss Whedon fans orgasming over how Avengers is the greatest superhero movie ever, thanks to the Hand of Joss.
> When I ask if they'd watched the rest of the Marvel superhero movies (at least, the ones leading up to the Avengers), they say "Noo...?" and then I facepalm on the inside.

Really? I've seen virtually every superhero movie released in the last 10 years. Avengers is the only one that really gets it. It's also easily the funniest movie I've seen in years.
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Starmaker
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Post by Starmaker » Wed May 23, 2012 6:40 am

> Neeeek wrote:

> > Maxus wrote: Also, it's likely very petty of me, but I keep seeing Joss Whedon fans orgasming over how Avengers is the greatest superhero movie ever, thanks to the Hand of Joss.
> > When I ask if they'd watched the rest of the Marvel superhero movies (at least, the ones leading up to the Avengers), they say "Noo...?" and then I facepalm on the inside.

> Really? I've seen virtually every superhero movie released in the last 10 years. Avengers is the only one that really gets it. It's also easily the funniest movie I've seen in years.

Really? I'm looking at sabs' post here:

> Thor is an arrogant Dick.
> Captain America is a boy scout with self confidence issues.
> Tony Stark is a giant egomaniac.
> Banner is tortured and always looking for a cure, Hulk is a Brute with great one liners.
> Nick Furry/Samuel Jackson is an interesting mix. It's definitely a post Universe Reboot Nick Fury, and I wonder if he's going to turn out to be head of Hydra, like in the comics.

Where are teh wimminz? In the kitchen?
(Sure, I know there are women in the movie, but when someone who liked the movie in general and the characterization in particular doesn't mention nominally "main" female characters, that's telling. Fuck Joe Sweden.)
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed May 23, 2012 7:34 am

I felt that the movie was very nearly "Black Widow: the Movie", which is weird because she is historically by far the most minor of those characters. And yet, whenever the plot needs to be advanced through any kind of dialog, Black Widow is the one to do it. It was sort of weird. There are actual female Avengers like Wasp. There was never a Black Widow movie and Black Widow doesn't really have any business being in a fight where Iron Man, Thor, and Hulk are required.
But being a Joss Whedon movie, Black Widow is front and center in all plot points and does most of the heavy lifting for just about everything. It's kind of weird. It would be like if they made a Justice League movie where half the movie was about Lois Lane accomplishing stuff, except even that would make more sense.
Don't get me wrong: Avengers is a lot of fun and easily the best superhero flick since Dark Knight. Probably about as good as Iron Man 1, significantly better than Iron Man 2. Captain America gets the most screen time, but he doesn't get to talk much or advance the plot much. Black Widow gets the most dialog by a substantial margin.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Wed May 23, 2012 7:46 am

Actually, I'd say it'd be more like a JLA movie where the Spoiler does most of the work. A note for those who have no clue who she is, she is the obscure teenage super hero who was the only canon female robin (I'm pretty sure Miller's Dark Knight Returns isn't canon), after her boyfriend died as Robin. She's obscure, has no powers, and isn't a part of *any* classic JLA, and even feminist, girl power types would be confused why you used her rather than any of the various female League members like Wonder Woman, Hawk Girl, Power Girl (okay, they'd applaud you for not using her...), or even fucking Shining Star.
I mean, sure, Black Widow is marginally less obscure than the Spoiler, whose real claim to fame is "the female Robin." But, still.
Last edited by Prak on Wed May 23, 2012 7:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed May 23, 2012 8:11 am

Hey, Spoiler was also Bat Girl for a while. But yeah, that's about a perfect fit. If they made a Justice League movie and the team was Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, and Stephanie Brown (getting the most lines), that would be pretty similar. It's just a weird design choice. You could have had:

- Scarlet Witch
- Wasp
- Tigra
- Mantis
- Ms. Marvel (Warbird)
- Sue Storm
- Firestar

And that's leaving out characters who are just female versions of other Avengers (Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Mocking Bird), or bit characters like Black Widow.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Wed May 23, 2012 8:18 am

Actually, hell, isn't She-Hulk one of the most popular female Marvel characters for no reason other than her giant green endowments and the fact that, though few admit it, many men find the idea of a woman who can benchpress them incredibly hot?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Parthenon
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Post by Parthenon » Wed May 23, 2012 8:28 am

The other thing is that every single part of Black Widows actions are because of Hawkeye. She has no motives of her own except "protect Hawkeye".
Her interrogation skills are mostly being physically and emotionally beaten up until the villain tells her their plot, and she drops everything to run after a man. She's even scared shitless in a foetal position until she hears about Hawkeye at which point she's fine again.
Yay feminism.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed May 23, 2012 8:40 am

> Parthenon wrote: Her interrogation skills are mostly being physically and emotionally beaten up until the villain tells her their plot, and she drops everything to run after a man. She's even scared shitless in a foetal position until she hears about Hawkeye at which point she's fine again.
> Yay feminism.

Okay, now THAT sounds like a Joss Whedon flick.
http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=12674
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Wed May 23, 2012 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed May 23, 2012 9:19 am

Avengers is not a feminist movie. It fails the Bechdel test quite spectacularly. There are a total of three named female characters (Romanov, Potts, Hill), and they don't talk to each other at all. Thor does a better job than that.

- There must be at least two female characters.
- Those characters must have names.
- Those characters must talk to each other about something other than a man.

Lots of movies can pass that. Thor has Jane Foster and Darcy Lewis. They talk about physics and school and Darcy's iPod, and the car and shit. Iron Man 2 has Natasha Romanov and Pepper Potts, who talk about business and job qualifications and stuff (albeit extremely briefly, most conversations in the movie are about Tony).
Really, I think that Avengers 2 just needs Ms. Marvel or Mantis. Much as I would like to see a big screen version of Squirrel Girl or Scarlet Witch or Wasp, I simply think that the Avengers just needs a woman who can punch through a brick wall and doesn't have to rely upon trickery, smallness, or other "feminine wiles" to get through the movie.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed May 23, 2012 9:34 am

> Avengers wrote:Really, I think that Avengers 2 just needs Ms. Marvel or Mantis.

What Avengers 2 needs to be is a crossover between The Boys and Dollhouse. And the plot is that Captain America stumbles onto an ancient underground conspiracy of molemen breeding women with Aryan space aliens. And uses his Nice Guy powers to both charm the pants off of an Empowered Yet Fragile sex slave superhero-in-training while also dressing up BDSM fantasies as feminism.
Unless Joss Whedon isn't the head writer for the next movie. Then nevermind.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed May 23, 2012 9:36 am

Not that I'm saying Avengers 1 is bad or anything as I haven't even seen it -- I just like busting Whedon's chops.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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ishy
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Post by ishy » Wed May 23, 2012 10:20 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:Hey, Spoiler was also Bat Girl for a while. But yeah, that's about a perfect fit. If they made a Justice League movie and the team was Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman, and Stephanie Brown (getting the most lines), that would be pretty similar. It's just a weird design choice. You could have had:
> - Scarlet Witch
> - Wasp
> - Tigra
> - Mantis
> - Ms. Marvel (Warbird)
> - Sue Storm
> - Firestar
> And that's leaving out characters who are just female versions of other Avengers (Valkyrie, She-Hulk, Mocking Bird), or bit characters like Black Widow.
> -Username17

I know I'm a bad benchmark, since I don't care about comics and live in a country that sees comics as something just for ~8 year olds. But I've seriously never heard of any of these female superheroes.
And the only reason I do know who black widows is, is because she was in spiderman.
I didn't know she even existed outside the 'spiderman world'.
Thus maybe that is the reason for black widow? That more people actually know who she is?
- Edit: After googling it, I realised I know Sue Storm too since she is in the fantastic four, though I honestly don't know what any of their names are.
Last edited by ishy on Wed May 23, 2012 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History » Wed May 23, 2012 11:29 am

Marvel has had less success than DC with female characters. But to summarize:
Scarlet Witch - Mutant, used to be a minor X-Men villain, has quasi-magic/magic/quasi-science probability altering powers. Most notable recently for going bugshit crazy, destroying the Avengers, reality, and mutankind (in the order), and fucking androids, mutants, Dr. Doom...etc.
Probably not in the movie because: X-Men franchise.
Wasp - Original female founding member of the Avengers, wife of founding member Giant Man/Ant Man/Hank Pym. She could shrink, fly, zap people (at one point), and sometimes communicate/command insects. Otherwise appears to be a cast member from Sex and the City. Most famous for putting up with her psychotic boyfriend/husband who used to beat her. Currently dead/one with the universe after the Skrull invasion thing.
Probably not in the movie because: Giant-Man/Ant Man isn't in it.
Tigra - Woman with a magic cat amulet from the mythical magical Cat People that let's her turn into a cat person. Likes being a cat person so much, she usually stays that way. Most remembered for getting beaten up/implied raped (on video) by The Hood and his gang and for having the baby of a skrull impersonating Hank Pym. Yes, sluttiness is a sad modern trend of Marvel heroines.
Probably not in the movie because: Catwoman movie bombed and Avatar cat-people CGI costs too much.
Mantis - The Celestial Madonna, a Vietnamese whore/martial artist with vague psychic powers destined to fuck a tree and give birth to half-tree messiah - and I wish I was joking. Currently dead, or off in space with her plant-husband, I don't remember.
Probably not in the movie because: No idea, psychic ninja-geisha seems right up Whedon's alley. I mean, this is an Asian River.
Ms. Marvel/Warbird - Former Air Force officer given powers by Kree pseudo-science; went through a number of bizarre power and personality changes, mostly because she was stuck in X-Men books for a long time, and was once impregnated against her will with her son's baby - that one was a little complicated. Recently, Marvel has been pushing her as the potential to be their version of Wonder Woman; has a generic set of superhuman abilities. Used to be an alcoholic and kicked out of the Avengers for showing up to a fight drunk.
Probably not in the movie because: They've just now introduced the Kree/Chitauri, so maybe saving her for a sequel?
Sue Storm - Most powerful member and resident MILF of the Fantastic Four. Occasionally runs with the Avengers.
Probably not in the movie because: Fantastic Four movies.
Firestar - Red-headed mutant that manipulates microwaves, which means she can set shit on fire without going all Human Torch. Most recently notable for getting breast cancer and losing her trademark red hair to chemo.
Probably not in the movie because: No mutants in Avengersverse just yet.
Honorable mention:
Monica Rambeau/Ms. Marvel/Photon - The second Ms. Marvel, and an African-American female, in most incarnations she can convert herself to any type of electromagnetic energy. Used to lead the Avengers, during a low point when the team roster included Dr. Druid and the Black Knight. Given new life by Warren Ellis' NextWave squad.
Probably not in the movie because: Too obscure?
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ishy
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Post by ishy » Wed May 23, 2012 11:51 am

Thanks for the summary.

> Ancient History wrote:Yes, sluttiness is a sad modern trend of Marvel heroines.

Seems to be the problem is rape / abuse not 'sluttiness' from your description.

> Sue Storm - Most powerful member and resident MILF of the Fantastic Four. Occasionally runs with the Avengers.
> Probably not in the movie because: Fantastic Four movies.

Huh, she is the most powerful one? Always struck me as the weakest in fights and strongest outside of them.
How does invisibility stack up to, being on fire / superstrength & durability because you are a rock / a rubber body?
Guessing she uses guns these days or something?

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History » Wed May 23, 2012 12:07 pm

In addition to turning invisible, and turning other things invisible, Sue Storm can create nigh-indestructable invisible force fields in any size or shape - she can hold back a nuclear blast at ground zero with an invisible force barrier, fly around on an invisible force-disk, chuck invisible force-knives at people, cut off people's air supply with an invisible force bubble around their heads, and has more than once threatened to open up a force bubble inside of them. So she has all of the advantages of a telekinetic or a Green Lantern except she can kill you without being showy.
Sluttiness comes in...many forms. She-Hulk, for example. But yeah, it's an issue.
[/edit]Oh, and every now and again Sue goes insane and starts dressing like a hooker or a dominatrix.
Last edited by Ancient History on Wed May 23, 2012 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sabs
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Post by sabs » Wed May 23, 2012 12:08 pm

You will note, I also didn't really mention Hawkeye that much.
I'm sexy and I shoot guns
I'm sexy and I shoot a bow
vs
Iron Man
Hulk
Thor
Captain America
I didn't mention Black Widow because she's a weak female character. I didn't mention her, because even though she's the go to for plot advancement, she's just not that exciting a super hero, never has been.
Edit: From what I remember of Black Widow in the comics, Scarlett Johanson was fine as Black Widow. It's just, Black Widow and Hawkeye just aren't that interesting. Never have been. Hell Hawkeye is a lamer, less Awesome version of Green Arrow from JLA.
Sue Storm is a powerful telekenetic who can create invisible forcefields of awesome. She's got way more going for her than Invisibility.
Last edited by sabs on Wed May 23, 2012 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History » Wed May 23, 2012 12:09 pm

Also, we forgot the zeroeth Avenger: Agent Phil Coulson. Man, that got rocked his scenes.
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Parthenon
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Post by Parthenon » Wed May 23, 2012 2:34 pm

I sort of want Hawkeye to be replaced by Bullseye (daredevil villain) like in Dark Avengers.
I had a quick look through the list of avenger members and I just have to ask: how many fucking superheros are at "the limits of human potential"? It seems like every damn hero has that. Then you get some really fucking stupid powers like "Photographic reflexes". What does that even mean?
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sabs
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Post by sabs » Wed May 23, 2012 2:42 pm

It means, that you can watch Bruce Lee on TV, and then do exactly what he did. If you can see it, you can do it.
Sue Storm is about as powerful as Green Lantern, when she wants to be, without the stupid "oh noz it's painted Yellow! I R SCRWD!"
Last edited by sabs on Wed May 23, 2012 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History » Wed May 23, 2012 2:46 pm

Photographic reflexes is this thing they came up with for a mid-level villain called Taskmaster, based on a bad interpretation of "muscle memory" - basically, if he sees a physical movement, he can duplicate it. Let him watch an NBA game and he can shoot hoops like the pros; let him watch a Bruce Lee movie and he can fight like Bruce Lee. His main limitation is he isn't superhuman, so being able to mimic Spider-Man or Captain America doesn't work without super-strength and speed/agility. So he mainly set himself up to train other supervillains and goons and government agents - a business that repeatedly failed because, as he finally observed "my clients were all guys that needed training."
Later on he developed a bit more - he could watch videos on fast-forward and accomplish brief super-speed, though it tired him out; he has a hard time adapting to completely alien fighting styles; and his weird photographic reflexes occasionally overwrites his long-term memory, causing him to forget his past (and his wife). There are a couple other photographic reflexes characters out now that can all basically do the same thing, they just had less screen time.
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Whatever
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Post by Whatever » Wed May 23, 2012 2:50 pm

> Parthenon wrote:I had a quick look through the list of avenger members and I just have to ask: how many fucking superheros are at "the limits of human potential"? It seems like every damn hero has that.

Yup. Marvel has a LOT of superheroes, and yet it's probably still quicker to list all the ones who have never been an Avenger than to list all the ones who have.
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sabs
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Post by sabs » Wed May 23, 2012 2:54 pm

I still think Avengers without Iron Man, Thor and Captain America.. just isn't really Avengers.
That's like JLA without Superman and Batman.
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Post by Username17 » Wed May 23, 2012 3:07 pm

> Ancient History wrote:Marvel has had less success than DC with female characters.

Ain't that the truth. If they were making a six person team out of Justice League, Teen Titans, Batman Incorporated, Suicide Squad or even spinoff groups like Justice Society, JLI, Young Justice, or Legion of Superheroes, they would have no problem having two or even three members be women. I mean, would it be at all weird if Justice League went forward with Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, and Zatanna? Of course not, that would be totally normal. I mean, Zatanna could get chucked for Aquaman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, or Cyborg, but it would be normal either way. I mean, the sixth member could also be Vixen or Icemaiden if you wanted a Justice League member who was a woman that was also Black or gay.
People would be totally weirded out if Teen Titans didn't have Raven and Starfire in it, and they'd sort of expect the lineup to be Robin, Cyborg, Beast Boy, Raven, Starfire, and Wondergirl. A Batman Incorporated movie would be required by law to include Bat Girl and Cat Woman, and if it also had Black Canary, Huntress, or Oracle that would be pretty normal as well. A Suicide Squad movie could have anyone in it, but you could have as many female characters as you want: Harley Quinn, Plastique, Nightshade, Killer Frost, Poison Ivy, Chase, and even Lime & Light if you were short of IP.

To understand why Scarlet Witch is a classic Avenger, you have to step back a bit and look at Marvel's fragmented continuity. Just as Gotham has Action Comics (Superman, where alien empires fight it out and the super heroes have world crushing power) and Detective Comics (Batman, where the heroes fight generally mundane crime, and characters who have powers at all tend to be things that are on par with "having a pistol"), Marvel has X-Men (where vast segments of the population have super powers and there is an ongoing genocidal war between normals and metahumans) and Spiderman (where superpowers are rare and opinion is divded about what to do about them). And just as DC mixes the two in Justice League and World's Finest, Marvel mixes the two in Avengers.
That is: in X-Men there might be giant robots patrolling the streets shooting death lasers at people with superpowers or a global brawl to be the friend of some random dude living in rural Arkansas or some shit, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the New York that Spiderman and Daredevil fight crime in. If there's an asteroid city blacking out the sun in the X-continuity, the sun will still be shining in the Spiderverse. Mutants aren't something that Peter Parker has to deal with, and people don't think he's a "mutant" despite his arbitrary spider powers. But Avengers recruits from both continuities. And once a character has been in Avengers for a while, they start building up contacts with other characters and then they can start appearing in both continuities.
So Wolverine was an Avenger for a while, and on that basis he appears in teamups with Spiderman and Daredevil. Beast: same deal. But Xavier isn't in the Avengers and nothing Captain America ever does has to interact with the fact that there is a Telepath with a giant computer that can find anyone in the whole world and change their memories.
So Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver (Magneto's children) got cycled into the Avengers early, which is why they feature prominently in Spiderverse scenarios.
Scarlet Witch would be a good Avenger, but right now there are zero female movie Avengers who punch through walls, and that needs to be rectified. Marvel (AKA Warbird) or Mantis would be the obvious ones to fill that void.
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