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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:05 am

In addition to being saner, it appears to be the only sensible interpretation.
While "strike" is not a game defined term, it makes more sense to say "A Whirlwind attack strikes multiple enemies" than it does to say "A Whirlwind is a single strike that hits multiple enemies."
So yes, a strike is a single hit on a single creature, and you have to Kai lots of time. It doesn't say you Kai an attack roll, you Kai a successful strike.
Further reasoning, a Whirlwind is where you roll one attack roll against six enemies.
Two of them have AC 20, 4 of them have AC 40. You roll a 35. If your whirlwind was one strike, was it a successful one? Was it confirmed as a hit? If so does that mean you now critted (and therefore, automatically hit even though you didn't exceed their AC) the other 4?
No, I can see basically no argument for Kaiing an entire Whirlwind with one usage.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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BearsAreBrown
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Post by BearsAreBrown » Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:05 pm

Kiai! and similar abilities force players to use scythes or picks. Will this be errata'd?
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:08 pm

Well I might have a solution:
When you are using a weapon with a x2 crit modifier you can force a critical by expanding one use of Khiai!, as normal. However, if you are wielding a x3 crit weapon you need to expand two uses of Khiai! to force a critical. A x4 weapon consumes 3 uses of Khiai! and so on.
This means that while your critical hits will be more powerful if you wield those weapons, you will have less of them each day. This way the guy who picked the katana won't feel like he made a completely sub-optimal choice.
Last edited by Dominicius on Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:26 pm

> BearsAreBrown wrote:Kiai! and similar abilities force players to use scythes or picks. Will this be errata'd?

Dumb solution:
[*]Katana: one-handed, 1d6 slashing or piercing, crit x4.
[*]Wakizashi: one-handed, 1d4 slashing or piercing, crit x4.
That said, there are compelling mechanical reasons for samurai to choose weapons that don't have x4 critical multipliers. The kusarigama, despite being more-or-less a pick, has a x2 critical multiplier. The dwarven warpike has a x3 critical multiplier. A longbow-wielding samurai is arguably the most powerful kind out there, which is reasonable given the longstanding tradition of samurai archery.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:45 pm

> Dominicius wrote:Well I might have a solution:
> When you are using a weapon with a x2 crit modifier you can force a critical by expanding one use of Khiai!, as normal. However, if you are wielding a x3 crit weapon you need to expand two uses of Khiai! to force a critical. An x4 weapon consumes 3 uses of Khiai! and so on.

No. Make it based on the critical range, not the critical multiplier.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:51 pm

?
Why?
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:59 pm

I have no problem with only scythe/pickax/longbow Samurai.
If Frank or K or someone else wants to present a competent fix of the type:
19-20 x2 = x3 ect, that also somehow doesn't make anything with more than a scythe currently has, and also doesn't improve scythes with a spell cast on them that increases their crit range, and presents a compelling argument for implementing it. I will totally put that in the errata, but if such a system existed and worked, Frank could just edit into the Races of War or whatever.
However, I personally have no problem with scythe samurai, and that sort of fix is outside the scope of this errata document if it's not an actual problem with the game, which I fail to see how it is.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:40 pm

> Dominicius wrote:?
> Why?

Because an 19-20/x2 weapon is already supposed to crit more often than a 20/x2, and a 20/x4 weapon is supposed to crit just as often as a 20/x3.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:59 pm

For one, the samurai does not care how often a weapon crits so neither should we and secondly, basing it on crit range opens the door to a lot more abuse and headache than simply basing on the critical multiplier.
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Midnight_v
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Post by Midnight_v » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:53 am

> Josh_Kablack wrote:Some question about Samurai Kiai! interacting with whirlwind attack came up in tonight's game. With the single attack roll against multiple targets for Whirlwind, it's somewhat ambiguous whether a single use of Kiai! can crit everyone hit by the whirlwind, or if the samurai must expend one daily usage of Kiai! per whirlwind victim they wish to crit.
> It probably keeps things saner to require one use of Kiai! per target, despite the single attack roll.

Hmm... that would make kiai! Considerably worse for wear, I've always read it as they were supposed to work together that way, with the intention of giving the Samurai(and really any melee character) a mook killing attack. It shouldn't be enough to kill the more important guys on the battlefield. . . right?
I'm mean is that an interpretation that people think is "broke" or is it one they just don't like? I've seen popculture samurai do that thing where they hack through a few dudes with 1 slash, I guess so its not that big a deal I would think.
Though I have to admit I can see both arguments. . .
Last edited by Midnight_v on Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:35 am

> Midnight_v wrote:

> > Josh_Kablack wrote:Some question about Samurai Kiai! interacting with whirlwind attack came up in tonight's game. With the single attack roll against multiple targets for Whirlwind, it's somewhat ambiguous whether a single use of Kiai! can crit everyone hit by the whirlwind, or if the samurai must expend one daily usage of Kiai! per whirlwind victim they wish to crit.
> > It probably keeps things saner to require one use of Kiai! per target, despite the single attack roll.

> Hmm... that would make kiai! Considerably worse for wear, I've always read it as they were supposed to work together that way, with the intention of giving the Samurai(and really any melee character) a mook killing attack. It shouldn't be enough to kill the more important guys on the battlefield. . . right?
> I'm mean is that an interpretation that people think is "broke" or is it one they just don't like? I've seen popculture samurai do that thing where they hack through a few dudes with 1 slash, I guess so its not that big a deal I would think.
> Though I have to admit I can see both arguments. . .

A crit with a Scythe at level 6 does 8d4+28 damage, assuming the only feat the Samurai has is whirlwind, and that it doesn't have a Str bonus race, and it doesn't have a weapon that adds more damage. That's 48 damage, enough to kill every Wizard in range, and probably every Samurai.
Unless your definition of mook is the same as JEs, where a level 6 Samurai should be able to solo kill 4 of himself with no chance of failure, then you need to redefine mook.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:29 am

Note the even the less-powerful interpretation still lets a samuri multi-kiai! during a single whirlwind, it just charges him multiple daily uses to do so. Under that interpretation, a level 6 samurai can still Kiai! up to 5 dudes in one whirlwind - it just uses up all of their daily uses. Under the other interpretation a level 6 samurai can Kiai! N dudes in a round, and still have four uses left, letting them Kiai! any number of dudes (who meet whirlwind target restrictions) for a total of 5 rounds.
And since I don't see that the less-powerful interpretation is quite as obvious as Kaelik does, let me propose a small wording change to remove any ambiguity and clarify that it is multiple attacks from one roll:
Whirlwind [Combat]
You are just as dangerous to everyone around you as to anyone around you.
Benefits: As a full round action, you may make a single attack against each opponent you can reach. Roll one single attack roll for all of these attacks and compare it to each available opponent's AC individually.
+1: You gain a +3 bonus to Balance checks.
+6: As a full round action, you may take a regular move action and make a single attack against each opponent you can reach at any point during your movement. Roll one single attack roll for all of these attacks and compare to each available opponent's AC individually.
+11: Until your next round after making a whirlwind attack, you may take an attack of opportunity against any opponent that enters your threatened area.
+16: As a full round action, you take a charge action, overrunning any creature in your path, and may make a single attack against each opponent you can reach at any point during your movement. Roll one single attack roll for all of these attacks and compare to each available opponent's AC individually.
*********
As for the "Kiai! makes samurai use high multiplier instead of high range weapons" arguments. I just can't see why I should care.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:21 am

Honestly, I'd go for the "Kiai! each target individually" interpretation, because typically you see a Samurai crit-whirlwind a single group of mooks, and then fight normally, implying he can't do it again that encounter/day.
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Midnight_v
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Post by Midnight_v » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:50 pm

> Note the even the less-powerful interpretation still lets a samuri multi-kiai! during a single whirlwind, it just charges him multiple daily uses to do so. Under that interpretation, a level 6 samurai can still Kiai! up to 5 dudes in one whirlwind - it just uses up all of their daily uses.

> Honestly, I'd go for the "Kiai! each target individually" interpretation, because typically you see a Samurai crit-whirlwind a single group of mooks, and then fight normally, implying he can't do it again that encounter/day.

Yeah, yeah, I see. It still works, just not the go to answer every fight, which is good.
Last edited by Midnight_v on Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:58 pm

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:The kusarigama, despite being more-or-less a pick, has a x2 critical multiplier.

I'd like to mention that kusari-gama are more like this:
Kusari Gama "Chain Sickle": Single Hand Double Weapon: Chain/Sickle 1d6/1d4 Bludgeoning|Piercing/Slashing x2/x3 10f/5ft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusarigama
Basing it off of all descriptions that I've had of the tool. The Chain is swung, but the sickle is held in the hand; and used as a cutting/stabbing tool.
No, it's not clean, or pretty, but it is closer to how the tool really works.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Wed May 09, 2012 8:35 pm

So I've been kinda disappointed with how weaksauce the flaming and dispelling qualities are, especially compared to Lesser Time Distortion. So I've made a slight change.
Caustic: A caustic weapon leaves burning acid behind as it slices and dices. A victim who fails a fortitude save suffers a number of d6 acid damage per enhancement bonus of the weapon every round until the acid is diluted (normally by dumping water on the victim).
Too strong?
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Surgo
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Post by Surgo » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:41 am

Replying to an old thread!
Just wanted to note that I've bundled up the magic item revisions into a short wiki article (with some small revisions of my own), which I'll have finished posting soon (along with creation rules). If there's no objection, I'll work a lot of the errata into the various original wiki articles as well.
http://www.dnd-wiki.org -- the wiki
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:39 am

> Surgo wrote:Replying to an old thread!
> Just wanted to note that I've bundled up the magic item revisions into a short wiki article (with some small revisions of my own), which I'll have finished posting soon (along with creation rules). If there's no objection, I'll work a lot of the errata into the various original wiki articles as well.

I don't want anything I didn't write attributed to me. So either don't tag me as the author, don't make any changes, or make all the changes noticeable (brackets, bold, whatever) and then explain that those are changes.
Which one you pick, I don't care.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Surgo
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Post by Surgo » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:51 pm

There's a fourth option, that you may or may not find acceptable: list you as a contributor. Is that cool, or should I stick to one of the three you have listed?
http://www.dnd-wiki.org -- the wiki
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:50 am

Kaelik, I don't know if you're still bothered about this project, but after running a campaign using this I had some thoughts on your magic item rules.
Firstly, whilst your item system is much more finished than the ideas presented in Book of Gears, it seems you haven't gone far enough on the consumables front. The problem items are wands, scrolls and potions. Here are my thoughts.
Wands:

> Kaelik wrote:Wands are spellcasting items. They are always minor items, can only cast up to 4th level spells, and have 50 uses of the spell before they become non magic items. You must have the spell on your list, or make a DC 20 UMD check to activate a wand. Doing so is a standard action (if you fail the UMD check, you have still spent the action). Wand Caster level, and DCs are always based on the lowest possible level to cast the spell.
> You must spend 15 minutes attuning a wand in order to use it to cast a spell. The Wand stays attuned until all non Permanent spells it has cast have had their durations ended, and you will it to unattune. There is no wait period after these events have occurred for it to become unattuned.

This is one of the biggest problem areas. By stating all wands are Lesser items, allowing level 4 spells and having only a 15 minute wait between each 50 castings these are straight up ridiculous. By my reading you don't even need to be the required level to cast the spell, just have it on your class spell list. A caster that grabs a wand of Solid Fog or Black Tentacles at low levels will just win forevar.
I recommend getting rid of wands entirely. Lesser Staffs seem to do everything you want here, what with having level requirements and only allowing level 3 spells as a Lesser item, but I would recommend giving them a 15 minute attunement and detunement period like wondrous items. You seem to be equating staffs and wands with fighter weapons, which isn't a fair reflection of the relative power boost they provide. A magic sword just makes the fighter a little better at what he already does, not gives him entirely new options, often at a high power level. If you are regulating characters swapping out Wondrous items with a half hour delay I don't see why staffs should be any different. Also, by having staffs attune and detune you dissuade characters from burning through all their charges as quickly as possible, which is a Good Thing.
Potions:

> Kaelik wrote:Potions and Oils are liquids infused with magic properties. A creature may have up to their Character level in potions or oils effecting them at any given time, further potions have no effect.
> Potions mimic the spell effects of any spell of up to 3rd level on a single target. It takes a standard action to activate a potion, by drinking it or applying it to your person. (Or applying it to a willing target. Yes you can apply an oil of Combustion to a helpless enemy.) These do not need to be attuned to benefit or harm a target.

Is this supposed to read "A creature may have up to their Character level in spell levels of potions or oils effecting them at any given time."? Because if it's your literal character level in number of potions then it's no longer a meaningful restriction from about level 3, along with encouraging you to simply drink as many high level potions as you can. Perhaps all buffs could be limited to total spell levels = character level? You'd need some way to differentiate between Hold Person and Bull's Strength though. Perhaps "You can only be affected by up to your character level in spell levels of ongoing spells with (Harmless) in the save line at any one time, from any sources"? That would mean potions are a way to get different buffs than the Cleric can dish out, not more buffs?
Scrolls:

> Kaelik wrote:Scrolls: Scrolls mimic any spell effect. They are effectively one time use items that cast a specific spell for you. All scrolls are minor items. Scrolls have the minimum Caster level and DC that a creature could have and still cast the spell in question.
> Activating a scroll is a standard action, or as long as the casting time of the spell, whichever is longer. You must either have the spell on your class list, or be able to make a UMD check to activate the scroll.
> If you have the spell on your list and a Caster level equal to or greater than the scrolls caster level, you activate the scroll and it has the desired effect.
> If you have a lower Caster level than the scroll, you make a Caster level check (1d20+Caster level) against the scrolls Caster level. If you succeed, the scroll activates and has the desired effect. If you fail, you lose the action, and the spell does not take effect. If you fail by 5 or more, the scroll is used up in the misfire, and becomes non magical. If you fail by 10 or more, the Scroll activates in a way harmful to you. IE, Fireballs you, Gates a creature that attacks you, ect.
> If you are making a UMD check to activate a scroll, you must make a check against DC 20+Caster level of the scroll+2 per point that your mental stat is below the minimum required to cast that spell. (Each scroll has a primary ability modifier based on what the person who created the scroll used to cast the spell. This is compared against your value of that same stat.) If you fail, you lose the action. If you fail by 5 or more, the scroll is consumed and becomes non magical. If you fail by 10 or more, it activates in a way harmful to you.
> Scrolls count as one of your attuned items for as long as the spell cast by the scroll is active, and then for 1d4 minutes afterward. You do not need to attune them in advance, but you must have an unattuned slot to place their effect in to activate them.

The immediate problem is that you compare your caster level to the scroll's caster level, which means with any caster level boosting item you can cast spells of higher levels than you should, which seems easily abuseable. I think this should have the staff clause instead, personally. I think it also becomes necessary to have scrolls of higher level spells count as higher level magic items for purchasing and creating purposes, otherwise once you hit level 9-10 you can just purchase ridiculous amounts of high level scrolls and indulge in broken spell chaining combos. I appreciate the item slot restriction makes them awkward to use in combat time, although given the caster level abuse I mentioned earlier I think most mages would give up an item slot for the ability to cast Forcecage a few levels early. I would just go for giving them a 1 minute reading time if you really want them to be for utility spells only, which seems like the safest way.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
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