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fatmonkey13
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### Fixing the Direct Damage Spells

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Post by fatmonkey13 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:53 am

So basicly I decided to rewrite a bunch of spells with a number of goals in mind. One was to make evocation better. Another was to make direct damage better. A third was too alow a more even progression into epic levels in terms of spellcasting. But to start I decided to show people what I did for Fireball.

Code: Select all

    Spell			        Range			Damage Expected Damage
    Fireball I	      25 + 5x/2		  &#40;x/2&#41;d6  2
    Fireball II	     100 + 10x		  &#40;x&#41;d4    8
    Fireball III       400 + 40x		  &#40;x&#41;d6    18
    Fireball IV        400 + 40x		  &#40;x&#41;d8    32
    Fireball V         1000 + 100x		&#40;x&#41;d10   50
    Fireball VI        1000 + 100x		&#40;x&#41;d12   72
    Fireball VII       1000 + 100x		&#40;2x&#41;d6   91
    Fireball VIII      1000 + 100x	   &#40;2x&#41;d6   105
    Fireball IX        1000 + 100x		&#40;2x&#41;d6   119
    Fireball X         2500 + 250x	   &#40;3x&#41;d6   200

Another the radius of the fireball (in feet) is about equal to the damage it does. X is the caster level, the spell is uncapped. I also have up to Fireball XXX (Fireball 30).
One other part of the solution is to increase the number of enimies dramaticly. I mean there has to be a use for all of those 1st level warriors...
Any thoughts?
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:00 am

Is everyone baiting me on this issue? Well, not you, dude. You haven't been here long enough to have really followed the discussion.
But finding ways to fix evocation has been coming up a lot lately.
Problem: Evocation does not do enough damage and more or less does not have neato effects like the other schools do.
Solution: Increase the damage and make evocation spells have effects (like setting people on fire for [Fire] effects and freezing the ground or water for [Cold], or dissolving solid material with [Acid] (so you can make holes in walls and stuff).
Problem with solution: The amount of damage evocation would need to be relevant would involve rolling and adding lots of dice. That takes a while and slows down the game.
Solution for Problem with First Solution: Giving spells a base damage rate (start off at 1. Go up by 2 each spell level) which multiplies with caster level would be fast. But the damage would be predictable. So add a variance roll to it. So a level 2 spell wouldn't be 3 * Caster level (say, caster level 3). It's be ( 3 + 1d4) * 3. Meaning your Fireball can do anywhere from 12 to 21 damage at level 3. Then you can take feats to up base damage for certain energy flavors or increase your variance roll or something.
Problem with THIS: You could basically make a chart of all your possible outcomes of the variance roll. Some people find this boring.
Random: You could probably have a few spells for each flavor of energy and say they can be prepared in higher-level slots and list a guide for scaling them up. So you prepare a lightning spell in a 5-level slot? Welcome to Chain Lightning!
Last edited by Maxus on Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by TarkisFlux » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:12 am

> Maxus wrote:Is everyone baiting me on this issue?

Yes Maxus. There was a meeting where we discussed the best methods of doing this to you with coffee and power point presentations and everything. And now you know the awful truth.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:28 am

> TarkisFlux wrote:

> > Maxus wrote:Is everyone baiting me on this issue?

> Yes Maxus. There was a meeting where we discussed the best methods of doing this to you with coffee and power point presentations and everything. And now you know the awful truth.

I could use some of that coffee right now...
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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fatmonkey13
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Post by fatmonkey13 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:32 am

> Maxus wrote:
> Problem: Evocation does not do enough damage and more or less does not have neato effects like the other schools do.

We agree.

> Maxus wrote: Solution: Increase the damage and make evocation spells have effects (like setting people on fire for [Fire] effects and freezing the ground or water for [Cold], or dissolving solid material with [Acid] (so you can make holes in walls and stuff).

I have increased the damage, the question is it enough damage? As for effects, I have not gone through those yet.

> Maxus wrote: Problem with solution: The amount of damage evocation would need to be relevant would involve rolling and adding lots of dice. That takes a while and slows down the game.

Use a smaller number of dice (from say 4 to 12) and multiply it. So Fireball X, at 20th level is 60d6, or 6d6 x 10. Or if you need to roll the dice, use electronic dice (which is more average).

> Maxus wrote: Random: You could probably have a few spells for each flavor of energy and say they can be prepared in higher-level slots and list a guide for scaling them up. So you prepare a lightning spell in a 5-level slot? Welcome to Chain Lightning!

I went with the make each one its own spell but only define one spell in each spell series, and define it relative to another spell series. So here are all series which refer to fireball to determine damage, range, and what not.
More evocation variations on Fireball:
Fireball #, Land Scraper
Fireball #, Sidewinder
Fireball #, Sidewinder Land Scraper
Fireball #, Skipping Betty
Fireball #, Skipping Betty Land Scraper
Fireball Barrage #
Acid Ball #
Cone of Fire #
Electricity Ball #
Hell Ball #
Line of Acid #
Line of Cold #
Line of Electricity #
Line of Fire #
Line of Fire #, Bouncing
Line of Fire #, Guided
Line of Sound #
Necromancy variations
Horrid Ball of Desiccation #
Horrid Line of Desiccation #
The question is what are the special effects for each element type?
A Fireball could Blind, dazzled, Deafen, blow targets away, and set the target on fire.
Acid can nausiate and sicken
Sonic can deafen, blow targets away
Electricity: Stun,
Last edited by fatmonkey13 on Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ice9
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Post by Ice9 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:54 pm

I don't know that it needs to be tied to elemental types, individual spells could have different effects. For instance:
Concussive Fireball:
Damage is fire, sonic, and bludgeoning. Also sends people flying back and temporarily deafens them. The blast knocks flyers out of the air if they fail the save.
Incendiary Fireball:
In addition to the initial damage, anyone who failed the save is set on fire, as is the area where it hit. Also, this generates a cloud of noxious smoke for a couple rounds.
Radiant Fireball:
Temporarily blinds people who fail the save, and breaks lower-level [Darkness] effects. Also dazzles in a larger secondary radius.
NOTE: Dazzled needs to be a condition that people might actually notice or care about. I suggest "everyone has 20% concealment against you".
Last edited by Ice9 on Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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fatmonkey13
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Post by fatmonkey13 » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:52 pm

The only issue with the spells is that I want to make things special for those who specialize in evocation. I want to make Illusionist not as good at blasting as Evokers. Making seperate spells means the Illusionist gets them through Shadow Evocation (which I do not want to remove), but if I make a feat: Devistating Evocations and add an effect to each damage type for evocation spells, the Evoker now has a head up on the non-evoker when it comes to direct damage spells.
Burning Fire: Creatures that take fire damage from one of your spells must make a reflex save (as the spell's DC) or catch on fire.
Blinding Fire: Creatures that take fire damage from one of your spell must make a reflex save or be blinded for 1d6 rounds.
Acid Vapors: Creatures exposed to an area effect spell which deals acid damage must make a Fortitude save vs poison (spell's DC; 1 CON initial; 1d4 CON secondary). Also any who remain in or enter the area on the following round must make a fortitude save or be sickened for 1d4 rounds.
Slippery Ice: The area effected by an area effect cold spell which does damage is slippery as a grease spell for one round after the spell is cast.
Deafening Blast: Creatures that take damage from one of your area effect spells must make a Fortitude save or be deafened for 1d6 rounds.
Shocking Stun: Creatures damage by a spell of yours that does electricity damage must make a Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:35 pm

The core issue is HP inflation; and a belief that you need weapons and attacks to deal a gradient of damage of any kind.
I'm murdering that sacred cow in FAR.
Creatures get 3 HP per Tier; attacks deal 1 point of damage when they deal damage (Avoidance, and Soaking tests come first). Each "major" power of any specific "tier" (of game play) that a creature has grants +1 Hit Point, up to the max of 5 per tier.
So, a "level 20" creature seriously has enough HP that you can remember off-hand (4 tiers [Mortal, Heroic, Legendary, Epic] = 12 HP; +20 major powers = 32 hp); and a character with a longsword can be expected to fight them; and rely on character abilities to do the heavy lifting (although, having an artifact sword of Omens or Excalibur, or Luke Skywalker's Lightsabre, or Steve's McGuffin; is an ability that a character can seriously buy).
So, when a Glyphomancer's Eye-bolts, or a Biomancer's touch, hits a target; they deal 1 point of damage base. Just the same as a dagger, kukri, longsword, waraxe, laser rifle, or english longbow. Putting all "damage" dealing attacks on the same page is the best way to keep them on the same page.
I've also tossed out vancian magic; and "mages" just buy carrier effects with limited uses per encounter, or adventure, that they put onto their 'normal' mind/eye-bolts or bio-disruption-touches. Just like "swords" or "doctor" characters can get. Universal ability lists, not ability lists for some characters, and not others.
Two handed melee weapons are the exception to this "1 point of damage" rule, as they deal 2 points of damage. Even with all of this said, there are multiple ways for a character to increase their base weapon damage as they gain abilities. Since being able to hit harder is something that is acceptable, and even expected, for a more powerful creature to do.
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fatmonkey13
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Post by fatmonkey13 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:48 pm

What about adding the spell level to damage per die of damage or add the caster's primary casting stat bonus to damage per die of damage? That would be simpler than rewriting all spells but one could just rewrite spell guidlines for damage.
Maybe:

Code: Select all

    Spell Level     Damage/CL
    0             1.5 or 1d2
    1             2.5 or 1d4
    2             3.5 or 1d6
    3             4.5 or 1d8
    4             5.5 or 1d10
    5             6.5 or 1d12
    6             7.5 or 3d4
    7             8.5
    8             9.5
    09             10.5 or 3d6

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:17 pm

Thing that you all are missing:
Problem: Ramping up damage just makes all damage spells save or dies, with a different set of Immunities.
Solution: Stop ramping the damage up to "1d8+30 per CL"

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fatmonkey13
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Post by fatmonkey13 » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:48 pm

I think maybe I should just stick with upping the number of enimies my players face. 30 Orcs with heavy crossbows and 30 goblins with spears were killed like nothing. The 12 mummies took longer...
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:24 pm

It was brought up in the other evocations thread but Frank had some good idea's for giving Evocations there own identity. Make them all lower level and they become effective mook killers, low level spells that have large area effects and do enough damage to take out lower level enemies more effectively than spending a 5th level slot on Cloudkill. Makes them the Wizard equivalent of Whirlwind.
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Parthenon
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Post by Parthenon » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:26 pm

I've been running an idea round my head for a little while thats probably already been thought of by others:
When you cast a spell (e.g. Fireball) you gain the Fireball weapon. So, for example, the Wizard casts Fireball as a Move action to equip the 'Fireball' (maybe Swift with a feat), and for the next few rounds as an attack action they can throw fireballs for however much damage with ranged touch attacks or attacking the square for splash damage. They can also choose to dual-wield the one fireball spell and so attack with an off-hand fireball as well (taking all the penalties of dual-wielding) or cast two spells and attack with different spell in each hand, for example attacking with Fireball in one hand and Cone of Cold in the other. You might even want to be able to use up the rest of the duration to get an attack bonus and more damage.
This would make evokers a lot more impressive- their hands glowing with eldritch energies, and fireballs or lightning bolts being thrown around like candy.
Unfortunately this would require redoing all the damage spells to make them require attack rolls and do a sensible amount of damage. Alternatively you could have a spell weapon chart like the weapon equipment chart, and multiple levels in Wizard or Warmage or whatever would increase the damage.
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:34 am

Making Evocations be.... oh. I've got it.
Evocations
Muahahaha! I control Lighting itself!
The Problem with Evocations is that they suck balls.
They're ultimately tactically boring. You cast 1 bunch of damage for 1 spell slot.
Seriously, who cares? You spent a spell slot and didn't even attempt to go for an auto-win.
A well built High to Full BaB character can... just do that, and not even spend something as valuable as a spell slot. Most of those character's spells are spent on force multipliers; not an attack for damage.
Seriously, fighters are more efficient spell users than Evokers. That's... honestly, bullshit.
Now, of course, how to run that might be a pain, but here's a very small potential idea.
Evocation: It's not supposed to suck
I evoke, Fireballs!
Upon casting an instantaneous Evocation spell; any creature may continue to use the spell's damaging attack until they rest. This spell is known as the creature's Evoked spell, and a creature may only have one Evoked spell per 4 base caster levels. [too much?]
For example, a 3rd level Wizard that cast Fireball, can cast the spell over and over again, until they cast an other instantaneous Evocation damage dealing spell; which then becomes their next Evoked spell. If they were sufficiently high level, say level 8, they would be able to Evoke a Fireball, and a Lighting Bolt.
Damage dealing spells are also level 1; and have no cap on their caster level; however they are capped at 20, or base caster level.
Happy Birthday Evokers. Yes, this is powerful, but lighting bolt every round.... isn't such a big deal.
I'm going to look at damage dealing mechanics in my own system. I'm currently thinking that spells will be on a 5-second recharge, 1 second cast, and no cool down. Since rounds are 6 seconds long, a single damaging effect is usable by characters.
I'm considering allowing creatures to just have appropriate elemental powers; and any creature can just choose from a list of flavours for powers. Creatures can choose between a bunch of flavours; and types; and they get bonuses, or penalites, based on how they are compared to other combinations.
..... of course, this is optional for every creature. Lots of things have Neutral, None, as their element, colour, or w/e.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:36 am

I think the evocations need more effects than just damage. The fireball doesn't even feel like an enormous explosion. If it did damage, knocked you prone, and set you on fire, that would be more badass and more dramatic.
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Post by Username17 » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:10 pm

I made a suggestion for how to fix the direct damage bullshit way back when Pathfinder was congealing and I actually thought it might go somewhere. Here it is:

> Me. wrote:Polar Ray is an insult to god and man. It's not a long legacy, it was introduced in 3.5 and before that it was merely one of several options for the much lower level Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. And of course, in Pathfinder, that would have to be called Freezing Sphere for copyright reasons, but that is neither here nor there.
> The point however, is that in the conversion from AD&D to 3e D&D, the amount of hit points and energy resistance that creatures have has increased literally exponentially. And damage output from Evocations has not kept up in the slightest. And while we could plausibly attempt to push the envelope and pump up damage output to match, that would only be an arms race that no one would win.
> Evocations in 3rd edition rules are primarily spells which serve to devastate low level opposition or to slowly but surely chip away at the defenses of opponents that pose reasonable threats. These are sometimes valid tactics, but they are not valid tactics to use one's highest level spells to accomplish. It takes a lot of magic missiles to bring down a Shadow, meaning that there is frankly no way that any Wizard is going to have enough spell slots to dedicate to doing that to make it a viable way to eventually beat such an opponent.
> So here's the solution: reduce the spell level of these underperforming evocation spells. Since they scale in damage to your level, nothing actually bad happens if you get these spells early. Even a dozen or more levels early is perfectly fine because the damage scales to something level appropriate at low level. A polar ray cast by a 1st level character does just 1d6 of damage - half the damage that the same character could achieve by purchasing a vial of alchemist frost and throwing it at a target (same to-hit roll as well at any kind of close range).
> So here's what the Evocation list should look like:
> Evocation Cantrips
> * Burning Hands
> * Dancing Lights
> * Light
> * Magic Missile
> * Shocking Grasp
> Evocation 1st Level Spells
> * Fireball
> * Floating Disk
> * Gust of Wind
> * Lightning Bolt
> * Polar Ray
> * Sending
> Evocation 2nd Level Spells
> * Chain Lightning
> * Cone of Cold
> * Continual Flame
> * Darkness
> * Daylight
> * Flaming Sphere (this spell badly needs to be better than it is, but that's another subject)
> * Scorching Ray
> * Shatter
> Evocation 3rd Level Spells
> * Delayed Blast Fireball
> * Ice Storm
> * Shout
> * Tiny Hut
> * Wall of Fire
> * Wind Wall
> Evocation 4th Level Spells
> * Fire Shield
> * Interposing Hand
> * Resilient Sphere
> * Wall of Ice
> Evocation 5th Level Spells
> * Forceful Hand
> * Freezing Sphere
> * Mage Sword
> * Sunburst
> * Wall of Force
> Evocation 6th Level Spells
> * Contingency
> * Grasping Hand
> * Shout, Greater
> Evocation 7th Level Spells
> * Clenched Fist
> * Force Cage
> * Prismatic Spray
> Evocation 8th Level Spells
> * Crushing Hand
> * Meteor Swarm
> * Telekinetic Sphere
> Evocation 9th Level Spells
> * 9th level Spells must be written for this discipline. Seriously, timestop? Shapechange? Wail of the Banshee? Astral Projection? Shades? Weird? Most disciplines have two game defining, god-fighting spells to choose from at 9th level. Evocation hasn't been given anything remotely decent for their top tier, so new, mountain leveling spells must be written for Evokers to have.
> There. It's pretty much completely backwards compatible, but nonetheless puts Evokers in at being able to do something legitimately valuable - Killing Fools.
> And no, having unlimited magic missiles or shocking grasps is not ungamebalanced at 1st level, or any level. Magic Missile tops out in damage at level 9, when it does 17.5 damage against any opponent who doesn't have concealment, cover, or spell resistance. But at level 9, a Rogue is literally inflicting 17.5 points of sneak attack damage with every single attack. And that's not total damage for the round, that's just the extra damage from a sneak attack. He still gets to do his weapon damage, and make his other attacks for that round. Shocking Grasp is very likely to hit, and it does a d8+1 damage. A Longsword in the hands of a Fighter is also very likely to hit and does a d8+4. While the shocking grasp is quite likely to have a better chance of hitting an orc warrior than the longsword is, it is also much more likely to do insufficient damage to drop the orc. Indeed, the Orc Warrior out of the SRD is more likely to drop in one attack from the 1st level Fighter than he from the 1st level Wizard - even factoring in the discrepancy in hit chances.
> And no, casting fireballs at 1st level isn't unbalanced either. At 1st level it only does a d6 of fire damage, it's barely worth doing against many opponents. It certainly isn't putting color spray out of a job.

That's still a little conservative. Depending on how you think Meteor Swarm works, it might be better as a 7th or even 6th level spell. But the basic fact of the matter doesn't change. Fireball dos substantial damage over an area of effect at long range. That's a situationally useful effect at all levels. The problem thus, is not that Fireballs are inherently irrelevant, but that Fireballs cost too much.
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Post by Roy » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:36 pm

> Kaelik wrote:Thing that you all are missing:
> Problem: Ramping up damage just makes all damage spells save or dies, with a different set of Immunities.
> Solution: Stop ramping the damage up to "1d8+30 per CL"

Given that save or dies actually work, and are worth casting and any decent optimizer has little respect for Reflex saves before they get FoM and none after... I'm not seeing the problem here.

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fatmonkey13
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Post by fatmonkey13 » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:58 pm

If fireball is 1st level...
So some new evocation spells maybe (based in part on Hackmaster):
2:
Fireball, Land Scraper: After the fireball moves 5', all within 5' of the Fireball's path take damage as if they were in the area of its radius spread.
Fireball, Bouncing: The fireball moves 1/10th of it max range each round, each round a target is w/in range, the caster can make a ranged touch attack to hit, if here is no target the caster wishes to attack is within range, the fireball bounces off the ground/water and continues to fly its next range increment. Each bounce must be a straight line or parabolic arc. Each range increment imposes a -1 penalty to attack. Targets must be within 45 degrees of the fireball's heading.
3:
Fireball, Barrage: Concentration duration, each round fire one fireball.
Fireball, Bouncing Land Scraper: As both a Bouncing Fireball and a Land Scraper Fireball.
Fireball, Guided: As Bouncing Fireball except targets need only be within 90 degrees of fireball's heading. Additionally it need not travel in straight lines but can maneuver around corners and even hit objects behind walls, assuming that a target is known.
4:
Fireball Storm: Concentration duration, each round fire two fireballs.
Fireball Barrage, Land Scraper
Fireball Barrage, Bouncing
5:
Fireball Storm, Land Scraper
Fireball Storm, Bouncing
6:
Fireball Storm, Bouncing Land Scraper
Fireball Storm, Guided
7:
8:
Fireball Storm, Greater Concentration duration, each round fire three fireballs.
9:
Last edited by fatmonkey13 on Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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