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## Angry Drunk Review - 5e Monster Manual: A Modern Relic

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Emerald
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Post by Emerald » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:56 pm

> Dogbert wrote:

> > Krusk wrote:Dao are apparently earth genies. I've never heard of them, but I don't really care much.

> I've heard Dao named here and there but I lack solid references of where they fall into (non d&d) djinn hierarchy. AFAIK, the hiearchy was ghul<ifrit<marid (none with a particular elemental affinity, given how they're all made from smokeless fire), and I only know that because of a very cultured friend of mine and having read The Thousand and One Nights (or at least having read as much as I could take, stupid book is the magnum opus of misogyny).
> Funny how even in the information age the amount of readily available sources of Muslim folklore are still barely a step above Fuck All.

Regarding genie hierarchy, Wikipedia says it's Marid > Ifrit > Shaitan > Jinn > Jann, and from other searches it looks like Ghul would fall under the Shaitan category.
Regarding the dao, I'm sure I read somewhere that the dao doesn't actually derive from mythology at all, they just needed an extra genie name to fill out the elemental diamond after the djinn, efreet, and marid names were assigned to air, fire, and water and Gygax (or one of the Dragon editors) felt that "shaitan" would be confused for a demon/devil due to its similarity to "Satan." I can't find the source on that at the moment; has anyone else seen that or am I going crazy?
Last edited by Emerald on Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:41 pm

I have seen Marid = Water, Dao = Earth, Ifrit = Fire before. Arcana for the SNES most readily springs to mind, but I'm positive that I've seen it in other properties.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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schpeelah
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Post by schpeelah » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:44 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:I have seen Marid = Water, Dao = Earth, Ifrit = Fire before. Arcana for the SNES most readily springs to mind, but I'm positive that I've seen it in other properties.

Marid = Water, Ifrit = Fire is widespread. In fact, I haven't seen any property where that wasn't the case.
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LeadPal
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Post by LeadPal » Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:55 pm

> schpeelah wrote:

> > Lago PARANOIA wrote:I have seen Marid = Water, Dao = Earth, Ifrit = Fire before. Arcana for the SNES most readily springs to mind, but I'm positive that I've seen it in other properties.

> Marid = Water, Ifrit = Fire is widespread. In fact, I haven't seen any property where that wasn't the case.

Can you find a depiction of water Marid that predates D&D, though?
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rasmuswagner
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Post by rasmuswagner » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:49 am

> Dogbert wrote:

> > Krusk wrote: AFAIK, the hiearchy was ghul<ifrit<marid (none with a particular elemental affinity, given how they're all made from smokeless fire), and I only know that because of a very cultured friend of mine and having read The Thousand and One Nights (or at least having read as much as I could take, stupid book is the magnum opus of misogyny).

And racism too, it's evil jews and big-dicked bestial black dudes all over the place too.
Last edited by rasmuswagner on Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Every time you play in a "low magic world" with D&D rules (or derivates), a unicorn steps on a kitten and an orphan drops his ice cream cone.
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Aryxbez
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Post by Aryxbez » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:18 pm

> krusk wrote:For some reason the book goes on about their abyssal origin and how the first ghoul was Doressain

That's a 4th edition thing, in the first MM, they had a devoted theme to Orcus, and his minions as the Late Paragon Epic Tiers. Similar seems to be for the way they set up the Gnolls statblock as well.
So far I'm quite rather enjoying this review, as well how informed you are of 5th's overall game and ruleset. How do you manage to read through that monstrosity without glazed eyes?
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:35 pm

You'd think including as little of 4e as possible would be a good idea. Especially the stupid stuff about zombies/ghouls being devotees of a demon prince (Even if that demon prince is of the undead). Especially for the core book thats supposed to be relatively generic. Whatever, that explains it I guess.
Thanks for the ego fluff. I need it to keep going, thats why these entries aren't as frequent as you'd expect. Its a serious effort for how bad it is. And this is the second time I've gone through. I did once a couple nights after I got it in two sit throughs but I wasn't actually commenting. Just reading it and getting pissed.
I'm loosely familiar because I followed the playtest up until I got a response from the devs. There was a version where evil clerics could rebuke unlimited insentient undead forever just by using the rules as they were written. (no twisting wording, just forgot to put a time limit). They responded with "Of course we already knew about this and you don't need to have told us. We obviously will be fixing it before release." Essentially what the PF Devs told frank. Only tell us if you had fun, not if its broke. Final version of the turning rules just has no option for rebuke BTW.
So since most of the actual rules haven't changed, I still tangentially remember most. I can look up the ones I don't remember or am unsure about in my PHB.
Ill try to get some more letters out soon, depending on work. Probably by wed this week. I'm breaking it down in chunks this big because I start to glaze over and stop reading the entries.
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Dogbert
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Post by Dogbert » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:33 am

> Krusk wrote:Final version of the turning rules just has no option for rebuke BTW.

In all fairness, Rebuke Undead really, really had to go. In a game that's all about Goonsquad Tactics like 5E, Rebuke becomes the biggest, fattest, red, caramel-like button as long as viral undead exist (Wights and Wraiths still have control over their spawn).
Necros still have a mini-rebuke, but they made it crappy enough so that you'll never want to use it.
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ACOS
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Post by ACOS » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:19 am

> Dogbert wrote:

> > Krusk wrote:Final version of the turning rules just has no option for rebuke BTW.

> In all fairness, Rebuke Undead really, really had to go. In a game that's all about Goonsquad Tactics like 5E, Rebuke becomes the biggest, fattest, red, caramel-like button as long as viral undead exist (Wights and Wraiths still have control over their spawn).

This is trivially easy to fix: spawns created by rebuked/controlled undead are free willed. Done.
I had to institute that several years ago, and haven't had a problem with it.
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:45 pm

There are a couple of really easy ways. See above. Alternatively, give sentient undead a frequent saving throw. Like every hour or something. Anything that spawns undead is automatically sentient.
Take 2 - Put a max limit on the ammount of undead anything can control, spawn, rebuke, or otherwise and specify it includes chains of command. Make it charisma mod or something. Then say the unreleased necromancer class might ignore that. Then let 5e fade to vapor ware and dont worry about it.
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ACOS
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Post by ACOS » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:33 am

> Krusk wrote:Take 2 - Put a max limit on the ammount of undead anything can control, spawn, rebuke, or otherwise and specify it includes chains of command.

FWIW: I've tried this - my experience is that this has the tendency to really bog things down. The player who has this will inevitably set up a long list of convoluted standing and contingency orders. And then there is the nightmare of managing several steps of command ... it isn't pretty.
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:03 am

Keep on Trucking.
Hags
This is another group of minor monster that 5e wants you to care about, but you probably don't. Hags traditionally are a stereotypical witch. Green skin, warts, eats children, the whole deal. 5e keeps that and explains that unlike being literal brides/whores of satan, they are jerks because they like it. You'd imagine that with 5e's trend of taking something kind of cool, and then forcing some form of demonic heritage onto it, that 5e would be all over the infernal Hag relationship. You'd be wrong. Instead they are jerks because that is their nature. On the main Hag page, you get a bit about how they get tons of badass spells if they are in groups of 3, but its not referenced on the page with stats. Its even in the sidebar stuff they normally use for house rules. So your DM probably won't remember/notice this when they roll Hag on random encounters, so you may find hags really easy/hard. Its also kind of stupid, so thats probably a good idea. You can have 3 of the CR 2 Hags, and suddenly they can cast as a 12th level caster and throw out phantasmal killer, polymorph and lightning. This could legit be against a 1st level party. Good luck. Speaking of multiple types, in this book you get Green Hags (hags that live in swamps), Night Hags (Hags that live in hades), and sea hags. At CR 3, a green hag totally stomps the party with 82 HP and an AC of 17. Its attacks do 13 damage, and so drop most people quickly. It can also be invisible and has special invisibility so it doesn't even leave tracks or anything. It gets a shapechange power, but it isn't "Fuck You", and you do get a DC 20 int (investigation) check. The Night Hag is CR 5 and is probably actually worse. Its got the same AC, slightly better HP, and does the same damage. So generally its not harder to fight, and you've now got better spells and powers. It can go etheral, but it requires a "Heart Stone" to do so. What's a Heartstone? Oh, it doesn't reference. Luckily, if you look in a sidebar on the next page you can find it. It lets Night Hags go ethereal and cures disease. She can give sweet terrible visions to people sleeping which is pretty cool. It reduces your max HP, no healing from the rest and has no save. If it kills you from this your soul goes to the hags soul bag. Whats a soul bag? hope you turn the page and find it. Its a bag and it steals the souls of evil dudes. The cool part is that this actually explains how to make them, and it doesn't seem to be a Night Hag only thing. It doesn't give DCs or anything, but it says it takes 7 days and a humanoid sacrifice, so I assume you make a craft check with a number made up by the GM and then get a fancy bag? Sea Hags are the third type. Their page has all the night hag items on it, and it really drives home the "We didn't know what to do with these, but they were in previous editions" Feel they have going. The other two have sweet art, and this one has a face that looks like the artist forgot to add perspective. So the body is "3d" but the face isn't. Its weird and not on purpose weird. Anyway, these are CR 2, and I think the most lethal for whatever reason. Anyone starting their turn in 30ft makes a DC 11 wis save or is frightened for a min. Repeated saves have disadvantage. Its claws do 10 damage, which is only 3 less, but its also got a death glare which is just a save or drop to 0HP. This is seriously the one to be concerned about, and its the lowest CR. The rest just roll up and claw at you, and while decent at it, this one is throwing save or dies and has two movement modes.
Half-Dragon
This is actually a template which is a good idea. It also proves templates made the cut, so I have no idea why ghost wasn't one. You turn into a half dragon for a variety of reasons. I don't know and neither did the author. They list 3 reasons and then say there could be others. Basically it gives free damage resistance, blindsight and darkvision and a breath weapon. Its a sweet deal that somehow doesn't adjust your CR. At first you'd assume its Monsters only, but the pic is totally just a dragonborn and so I'd say you've got to be wrong. The fluff entry even points out that half dragon humans are a thing. That said, since no one knows how you become one its largely up to your slobbering skills. If you can convince your DM to let you, you should always do it. If you can't, ignore it. The book says this can go on any beast, humanoid, giant or monstrosity, so you can't be a half dragon dragon, but you could totally be a dragonborn half dragon.
Harpy
I think the intent was to go with the hot chick with scary wings, hands, and legs harpy option, but the one they drew is gross looking. Also red/purple. She looks super greasy, almost like golum. Origin: Elves in the woods played with elven gods, and then one cursed him because he is a dick, even though he is a fun elf god of nothing specific. The curse made them really into music but for some reason it corrupted and now that love of music turned into a love of flesh. No real reason, just kicks. Anyway, harpies have wings, but not bows which sounds stupid. Instead they use claws and clubs. Not even dropped rocks. They are CR 1 with 11 AC and no special "hit and run tactics enabler" so combat with them consists of a swarm running over you. Then being killed on attacks of opportunity. They have a special song that only carries 300ft. I get that thats a decent distance for someone to yell, but its not even a magically enhanced distance. Its like, Shouting distance. So you don't hear them far off and get drawn from your party to their haunting melodies. They just sort of fail on any level you'd want a harpy to participate in.
Hell Hound
That this entry is in here pisses me off so much. You won't know why until the end of the review, as I read beasts, but the short answer is that Fire Wolves apparently needed an entire entry, and Ice Wolves did not. Its art is sweet. These are actually fiends that take the form of dogs, and this isn't particularly new. Its just always been stupid. Its a fiend that decideds it wants to be a dog. These are just demonic furries, enjoy. They are CR 3, and have a speed of 50ft, so they outrun anyone. Their AC and HP are not awesome, but they get advantage if they have allies within 5ft of the person they attack, so they probably always hit. Their hits do 14 damage which is significant, and they can blast fire breath for 21 save for half. Being immune to fire makes a pack of these actually dangerous as they just spam that as often as possible dropping people fast.
Helmed Horror
We needed a suit of animated armor right? haven't seen any of those yet? Anyway this one is CR 4. For some reason it doesn't have the Fuck You Hide power. Instead if has 20AC, flight, and a huge pile of immunities. Its probably pretty badass in combat. It gets advantage to all saves and your DM picks 3 spells its immune to. Your DM probably forgot to do this, and so its probably just 3 you enjoy prepping. Unfortunately, it sucks offensively, or it would be a really solid monster. Instead it just sort of flies around and flails at people. Like a monk.
Hippogriff
I'm not sold on these being needed, but I can ignore it for traditions sake. The book makes no attempt to explain how these exist claiming its origins are lost to history. Otherwise you know they work like birds that give birth to live young and people make them mounts. You don't get to know how much one costs because your DM will just make something up. It kind of sucks in melee, but its a mount. Don't fight it. It has a 60ft fly speed which makes it not terrible. Its 11 AC means you've got to buy barding though. And that isn't priced anywhere, so ask your DM. I'm into the pic.
Hobgoblins
I know these are a favorite around here, and I think the book does the high concept of them decently well. The fluff is all about how they are militaristic and work in legions. It makes an effort to make them sound like Rome instead of Samurai like Frank does, with a ton of stuff about spears and legions and stuff. The intro art is a pretty solid piece showing a hobgoblin in red roman style armor with a mean wolf overlooking a spiked castle with dragons flying around. It goes into how they worship that goblin god out of a desire to join his army vs the goblin fear of joining it. Thats kind of fun. The average hobgoblin is CR 1/2, has an AC of 18 and free +7 to damage 1/round normally dealing 5-6. Its not bad for CR 1/2, although its AC of 18 says "Chain Mail, Shield" and it gets extra damage with a two handed longsword. No idea how much to drop its AC, and it doesn't make it clear you should. The captain is CR 3, but he isn't a lot better outside of some extra HP. The WArlord on page 187 is in a full set of samurai armor, so either I was wrong earlier, or the artist didn't get the description. I'd say the latter, because this guy also has a lions face. Anyway he is CR 6, has 20 AC, throws out 3 attacks, one of which gets +14 and the rest of which deal ~7. He has a shield bash attack that requires str save DC 14 or be knocked prone which is neat. He also has a parry power meaning he gets +3 AC 1/round. The gist is that hobgoblins are apparently Tanks, not berserkers.
Homunculus
It opens with a thing about how ou can make one, but doesn't tell you how. This is a big let down because they are traditional mage familiars, and this book includes stats for alternative familiars. It could be a neat one, as its got a fly speed and a shared mind with you, but otherwise it sucks. The art makes it look like a grey winged stitch.
Hook Horror
Continuing in the tradition of making random monsters blue, hook horrors are bright blue now. IT talks about how its a fierce underdark predator but its only CR 3, so I can't see them surviving long. Weirdly a thing that stands out is that they have their own language. Hook Horror. This could be an obscure thing I didn't know, but its kind of weird. It even gives them a whole society about living in clans ruled by the eldest female. It kind of makes you feel bad about destroying them, but they are specifically neutral now. So you shouldn't expect to be ambushed by them anymore? Also, they suck in combat now so you shouldn't really care if ambushed.
Hydra
The first line is that it has a crocodillian body, but the picture, while cool, clearly does not. Its got the body of a scaly lion or a cat. The method for their head is actually pretty decent instead of the 3.x method where no one cuts its heads off because its easier to just kill it. This one it happens every time you do 25 damage. Then it grows 2 back. It shuts down the "dude I stop cutting heads off" tactic your players will obviously throw out, but you gotta make sacrifices. At CR 8 with a 172HP and regaining HP each round, if you try to melee it you are fucked. Luckily you can kite it no problem. Its got a 30ft move speed and no regeneration. Just hit it for small damage and run. Instead of regen, its regen is tied into its heads thing. Every time you do 25 damage in a single turn, a head dies. Then, it grows 2 new heads and heals 10 HP, unless its taken fire damage. Its got nothing about being unkillable though, so no need to burn them anymore. Weirdly enough they don't mention anything about the heads withering and falling off eventually. All hydra are born with 5 heads, but they grow more when attacked. My immediate thought is to train one (its unaligned like a robot apparently) and just cut off a head a night. In 3-4 weeks I can rock my 33 headed hydra.
Intellect Devourer
These made the cut. These are over the line retarded. Its CR 2. Its got OK HP for that level and resistance to most damage, so it can take a hit or two. The problem is that its faster than you, and has a save or die it can use as a free action. That means it's going to get to roll, and your PC could realistically die in his first encounter. It claws for 7 damage, and then gets a free action "Devour intellect" on anything within 10ft. Its a DC 12 int save or take 11 damage and roll 3d6. If 3d6 is = or > your int, your int drops to 0 and you are stunned. So this thing runs into combat, probably survives a single attack, and drops a barbarian or fighter. TO really fuck over the not casters, it then spends its next turn making an int contest. Guess who wins? When it wins it jumps into your body and steals it. Enjoy that one not wizards. Also, no one can outrun it, so its going to get you. Alternatively, instead of combat they can just hijack sleeping PCs.
Invisible Stalker
The lady in this pic is really poorly drawn and it doesn't really fit the style of the rest of the book. These are apparently air elementals summoned, transformed, enslaved, and then sent to kill shit. Somehow this isn't a bad thing, but PCs can't summon them. It makes a point to talk about how much the air elemental doens't like this process which drives home the point that maybe binding elementals isn't always the best idea. These are CR 6, but are also always straight up invisable. Not sure why they drew a pic of one, because you can totally see that one. Wonder how many DMs descibe them, look at the stats and then say "Except its always invis". Anyway, they are pretty lame. Faster than you, flying, immune to a bunch, and then just boring slam attacks. So its a "You have to fight this. In melee. Final Destination" type monster. Its also got a fuck you power where it can always track you. No matter what. Just fuck you, it knows where you are.
Jackalwere
Speaking of stupid monsters, these are demonic jackal people. They can transform into jackles, a hybrid form, or a human form. They are totally not werejackals, which are a different monster. Yes these are vital to the books page count. Demons made them and they are dicks. Thats the summary for most monsters in this book,a nd this is no different. For some reason these guys get backwards/extra knee legs. Not sure what thats about, and it isn't mentioned. Its CR 1/2, and generally sucks. Its got a sleep gaze for no reason, but its a DC 10 wisdom save, so no one fails. It doesn't allow resaves every round which is nice.
No Art this time because my tubes are tied. I may come back with new pics for this entry later.
Last edited by Krusk on Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:05 am

> ACOS wrote:

> > Krusk wrote:Take 2 - Put a max limit on the ammount of undead anything can control, spawn, rebuke, or otherwise and specify it includes chains of command.

> FWIW: I've tried this - my experience is that this has the tendency to really bog things down. The player who has this will inevitably set up a long list of convoluted standing and contingency orders. And then there is the nightmare of managing several steps of command ... it isn't pretty.

Thats why I included the line "And specify it includes chains of command". As in "You rebuke a vampire. All his brides immediately go free, unless you rebuke them too." No "I own you, and you tell your dudes to do what I say" BS.
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ACOS
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Post by ACOS » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:41 am

> Krusk wrote:

> > ACOS wrote:

> > > Krusk wrote:Take 2 - Put a max limit on the ammount of undead anything can control, spawn, rebuke, or otherwise and specify it includes chains of command.

> > FWIW: I've tried this - my experience is that this has the tendency to really bog things down. The player who has this will inevitably set up a long list of convoluted standing and contingency orders. And then there is the nightmare of managing several steps of command ... it isn't pretty.

> Thats why I included the line "And specify it includes chains of command". As in "You rebuke a vampire. All his brides immediately go free, unless you rebuke them too." No "I own you, and you tell your dudes to do what I say" BS.

Ah, okay - I just misunderstood you.
And yeah, that's the way it's gotta be done. I ended up learning the hard way not to do the latter.
Last edited by ACOS on Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:48 pm

Spawn need to be limited in number and also be weaker than the thing that made them. Elder Vampires don't make new Elder Vampires, they make young vampires. Fucking fuck. If a Wight makes new full-strength Wights without limit, things are absolutely fucked whether you can control patient zero or not.
-Username17
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ACOS
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Post by ACOS » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:24 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:Spawn need to be limited in number and also be weaker than the thing that made them. Elder Vampires don't make new Elder Vampires, they make young vampires. Fucking fuck. If a Wight makes new full-strength Wights without limit, things are absolutely fucked whether you can control patient zero or not.
> -Username17

Okay. But are you suggesting that there needs to be hard-coded rules that prohibit someone from establishing a full-fledged Zombie Apocalypse? or just meant at face-value? (out of genuine curiosity)
Because that's just a function of Wheaton's Law.
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ruemere
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Post by ruemere » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:08 pm

> ACOS wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote:Spawn need to be limited in number and also be weaker than the thing that made them. Elder Vampires don't make new Elder Vampires, they make young vampires. Fucking fuck. If a Wight makes new full-strength Wights without limit, things are absolutely fucked whether you can control patient zero or not.
> > -Username17

> Okay. But are you suggesting that there needs to be hard-coded rules that prohibit someone from establishing a full-fledged Zombie Apocalypse? or just meant at face-value? (out of genuine curiosity)
> Because that's just a function of Wheaton's Law.

If there is an easy and cheap method to manufacture an apocalypse, and then if you try to make a fantasy world with thousand years of history, chances are that the first oppressed minority will use their nukes in their death throes, ending era of living creatures within the first century.
It's darwinism at its simplest - if you give too much power to a single group/species, they will procreate and dominate the rest. In "game of life" simulations your goal is to balance all species against themselves, otherwise you get either a single species (if they can survive on their own) or barren wasteland.
Regards,
Ruemere
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:44 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:Spawn need to be limited in number and also be weaker than the thing that made them. Elder Vampires don't make new Elder Vampires, they make young vampires. Fucking fuck. If a Wight makes new full-strength Wights without limit, things are absolutely fucked whether you can control patient zero or not.
> -Username17

I honestly assumed this was a given for every scenario possible. If it that assumption isn't made, please make it.
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erik
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Post by erik » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:11 am

> Krusk wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote:Spawn need to be limited in number and also be weaker than the thing that made them. Elder Vampires don't make new Elder Vampires, they make young vampires. Fucking fuck. If a Wight makes new full-strength Wights without limit, things are absolutely fucked whether you can control patient zero or not.
> > -Username17

> I honestly assumed this was a given for every scenario possible. If it that assumption isn't made, please make it.

It is not the case in any given scenario using the most popular rule sets of D&D. A vampire in fact is just as capable of making a stronger spawn than themselves. Shadows and Wights explicitly make new Shadows and Wights. Welcome to 3e, 3.5, 3.P.
Any other assumptions to be made that are not at all in line with existing rule sets?
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:16 am

> erik wrote:

> > Krusk wrote:

> > > FrankTrollman wrote:Spawn need to be limited in number and also be weaker than the thing that made them. Elder Vampires don't make new Elder Vampires, they make young vampires. Fucking fuck. If a Wight makes new full-strength Wights without limit, things are absolutely fucked whether you can control patient zero or not.
> > > -Username17

> > I honestly assumed this was a given for every scenario possible. If it that assumption isn't made, please make it.

> It is not the case in any given scenario using the most popular rule sets of D&D. A vampire in fact is just as capable of making a stronger spawn than themselves. Shadows and Wights explicitly make new Shadows and Wights. Welcome to 3e, 3.5, 3.P.
> Any other assumptions to be made that are not at all in line with existing rule sets?

The scenarios possible are for the given task of "making undead controlling rules that aren't terrible." The undead controlling rules for 3e, 3.5, PF, 4e, 5e, 2e, 1e, Every e and your mom are all terrible. This means that they fail at the challenge of "Make undead controlling rules that aren't terrible" by virtue of being "Terrible".
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erik
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Post by erik » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:57 am

Right. So now that you've named one assumption that should be made. Do you have other assumptions contradictory to the rulesets being expanded do you intend to announce that you had not made previously?
I'm not saying you have to list everything you assume, but if you are contradicting existing rules then it's probably best to state your assumptions even if they are totally reasonable. It's just good form.
Having rule 0 be "don't do something terrible" is a shitty patch since different people have different perceptions of terrible. The point of making good rules is to not hide them under unstated assumptions but actually spell stuff out so even mediocre or sub-par MCs are brought in line with reasonable expectations.
So when Frank noted a good alteration to make that you already agreed with the correct response is not "Oh, I already had that in my secret file I didn't intend to make public. Tsk for even mentioning it"- it is "Good call. I am already with you on this."
Anyway, moving on.
Perhaps to limit spawn creation make use of advancement rules by having spawn-creators be ones with additional HD, have their spawn be created with 1 less HD than creator, and when they reach the minimum HD entry for a creature they can no longer create spawn.
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Dogbert
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Post by Dogbert » Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:18 am

> Krusk wrote: The undead controlling rules for 3e, 3.5, PF, 4e, 5e, 2e, 1e, Every e and your mom are all terrible.

In 3.X' defense, it was a (clumsy) attempt at empowering players (one of 3.X' objectives) in that regard. BBEGs that command Castlevania-like armies of the dead are common enough and both DMs and players like them, but the game needed to provide a way for players to assemble one of their own without sucking DM cock.
Granted, the existence of viral undead makes it too easy from the get-go and outright game-breaking, but while assembling a monster army should be harder to do, it should be something that can be done (as in, something that can be done using the rules).
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Insomniac
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Post by Insomniac » Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:00 am

I hate it when Monster Manuals pad their page counts with oddball "legacy" monsters that nobody ever uses. Jackalweres, really?
Last edited by Insomniac on Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:23 am

I'm still extremely annoyed that SoDs went back into the hands of monsters but all the PC death spells were nerfed. The complaints with SoDs were:
PCs die too easily
Bosses die too easily.
As all the bosses in this edition have 3 free autosaves...this just seems to be in there so that PCs can be instagibbed.
Mainly because I get the impression Mearls is a shitty grognard DM.

> OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
> -Sarpadian Empires, vol. I

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name_here
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Post by name_here » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:25 am

You know, almost every time I've seen an HP total quoted for a monster, my immediate reaction has been that it's way too high for that CR. Do PCs do more damage now or something?

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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