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## Class Compression

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## Are the classes worth playing now?

Yes
  1
  4%

No
  8
  33%

I don't know
  4
  17%

I'd play a full spellcaster anyway. Like a boss.
  11
  46%

  Total votes: 24

Your vote has been cast.

JonSetanta
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### Class Compression

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Post by JonSetanta » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:46 am

Class Compression
Barbarian

Level | Abilities
1 | Fast Movement, Rage 1, Uncanny Dodge
2 | Rage 2, Trap Sense +1
3 | Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +2
4 | DR 1, Rage 3
5 | DR 2, Trap Sense +3
6 | Greater Rage, Rage 4, Trap Sense +4
7 | DR 3, Indomitable Will
8 | DR 4, Rage 5, Trap Sense +5
9 | Tireless Rage, Trap Sense +6
10 | Mighty Rage, Rage 6, DR 5

Barbarian v2

Level | Abilities
1 | Pure Muscle, Fast Movement, Rage
2 | Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge
3 | Damage Reduction, Scent
4 | Improved Uncanny Dodge
5 | Blindsense 30
6 | Greater Rage
7 | Indomitable Will
8 | Blindsight 60
9 | Tireless Rage
10 | Mighty Rage

Pure Muscle (Ex): The character adds Barbarian levels as a racial bonus to Strength, and every even Barbarian level as a racial bonus to Constitution.
Ability score adjustments from this ability do not stack with racial and enhancement bonuses.
Fast Movement (Ex): Add a +10 bonus to movement for every odd Barbarian class level.
Rage (Ex): The bonus are as normal, but Rage is a stance that can be activated or deactivated once each round, and does not cause Fatigue. In any hour in which a character activates Rage, they are considered to have not rested for that hour.
Trap Sense (Ex): Grants +1 bonus to all saves against traps for each Barbarian level.
Damage Reduction (Ex): The character gains DR/- equal to their Barbarian class levels.
Bard

Level | Abilities
1 | Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1
2 | Inspire Competence
3 | Countersong
4 | Inspire Courage +2
5 | Suggestion
6 | Inspire Courage +3
7 | Song of Freedom
8 | Inspire Courage +4
9 | Inspire Heroics
10 | Inspire Courage +5
11 | Mass Suggestion

Level | Maximum Spell Level
1 | 1
2 |
3 | 2
4 |
5 | 3
6 |
7 | 4
8 |
9 | 5
10 |
11 | 6

Fighter

Level | Abilities
1 | Bonus Fighter Feat
2 | Bonus Fighter Feat
3 | Bonus Fighter Feat
4 | Bonus Fighter Feat
5 | Bonus Fighter Feat
6 | Bonus Fighter Feat
7 | Bonus Fighter Feat
8 | Bonus Fighter Feat
9 | Bonus Fighter Feat
10 | Bonus Fighter Feat

Fighter v2
• 4 + INT skill points

Level | Abilities
1 | Pure Muscle, 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
2 | 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
3 | 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
4 | 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
5 | 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
6 | 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
7 | 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
8 | 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
9 | 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
10 | 2 Bonus Fighter Feats

Pure Muscle (Ex): The character adds Fighter levels as a racial bonus to Strength, and every even Fighter level as a racial bonus to Constitution.
Ability score adjustments from this ability do not stack with racial and enhancement bonuses.
Monk

Level | Abilities
1 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, AC Bonus
2 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike, Slow Fall 20
3 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 30
4 | Wholeness of Body, Slow Fall 40
5 | Improved Evasion, Ki Strike (Law), Slow Fall 50
6 | Diamond Body, Greater Flurry, Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60
7 | Diamond Soul, Slow Fall 70
8 | Quivering Palm, Ki Strike (Adamantine), Slow Fall 80
9 | Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon, Slow Fall 90
10 | Empty Body, Perfect Self, Slow Fall any distance

Monk v2

Level | Abilities
1 | Pure Muscle, Bonus Fighter Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, AC Bonus, Fast Movement, Ninja Training (optional)
2 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike, Slow Fall
3 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Purity of Body, Water Walk (constant)
4 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Wholeness of Body
5 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Improved Evasion, Ki Strike (Law), Air Walk (constant)
6 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Diamond Body, Greater Flurry
7 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Diamond Soul, Abundant Step
8 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Quivering Palm, Ki Strike (Adamantine)
9 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon
10 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Empty Body, Perfect Self

AC Bonus (Ex): The character adds both Wisdom bonus and every even Monk class level to AC.
Pure Muscle (Ex): The character adds Monk levels as a racial bonus to Strength, and every even Monk level as a racial bonus to Constitution.
Ability score adjustments from this ability do not stack with racial and enhancement bonuses.
Fast Movement (Ex): Add a +10 bonus to movement for every odd Monk class level.
Ninja Training: If the player chooses, they may sacrifice each Bonus Fighter Feat gained from the Monk class to instead gain a Sneak Attack +1d6 damage, and a damage progression as if each Monk class level were Rogue class levels.
Slow Fall (Su): The character is affected by Feather Fall whenever they desire.
Abundant Step (Su): The character may use Dimension Door as a Move action. If the character has the ability Empty Body as well, they may use Teleport instead.
Empty Body (Ex): The character may become ethereal for 1 round as an Immediate action once every minute.

Level | Unarmed Strike Damage
1 | 1d8
2 | 1d8
3 | 1d8
4 | 1d10
5 | 1d10
6 | 2d6
7 | 2d6
8 | 2d8
9 | 2d8
10 | 2d10

Paladin

Level | Abilities
1 | Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1, Turn Undead, Lay On Hands
2 | Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Divine Grace
3 | Smite Evil 2, Special Mount, Remove Disease 1
4 | Remove Disease 2
5 | Smite Evil 3
6 | Remove Disease 3
7 | Smite Evil 4
8 | Remove Disease 4
9 | Remove Disease 5
10 | Smite Evil 5

Paladin v2

Level | Abilities
1 | Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Turn Undead, Lay On Hands
2 | Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Divine Grace
3 | Special Mount, Remove Disease
4 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Paladin Spells
5 | Magic Circle Against Evil (constant)
6 | Bonus Fighter Feat
7 | Holy Smite effect with weapon hit
8 | Bonus Fighter Feat
9 | Dispel Evil at-will
10 | Celestial template (self), Bonus Fighter Feat

Smite Evil (Su): As normal, but occurs automatically against any being the Paladin has identified as evil.
Remove Disease (Su): The character may cure any disease by touch at-will.
Special Mount (Su): The mount has the Celestial template, and may be any monster with HD or CR no greater than the Paladin class levels.
Paladin Spells: Paladin levels grant spellcasting as if a Cleric but 3 levels lower. The character adds Paladin spells to spells known.
Ranger v2

Level | Abilities
1 | Favored Enemy 1, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style
2 | Endurance, Evasion, Animal Companion
3 | Favored Enemy 2, Improved Combat Style
4 | Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Ranger Spells
5 | Favored Enemy 3, Improved Evasion
6 | Combat Style Mastery
7 | Camouflage
8 | Favored Enemy 4
9 | Hide in Plain Sight
10 | Commune With Nature 1/hour, Favored Enemy 5

Combat Style (Ex): As normal, but each time this ability is gained, both double weapon style and archery style are gained.
Favored Enemy (Ex): Each time the ability occurs, choose an additional new type to specialize against. As normal, but the bonus is equal to Ranger class levels.
Ranger Spells: Ranger levels grant spellcasting as if a Druid but 3 levels lower. The character adds Ranger spells to spells known.
Rogue

Level | Abilities
1 | Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Evasion
2 | Trap Sense +1, Uncanny Dodge
3 | Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +2
4 | Sneak Attack +3d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge
5 | Trap Sense +3, Special Ability
6 | Sneak Attack +4d6, Trap Sense +4
7 | Sneak Attack +5d6
8 | Special Ability, Trap Sense +5
9 | Sneak Attack +6d6, Trap Sense +6
10 | Sneak Attack +7d6
11 | Special Ability
12 | Sneak Attack +8d6
13 | Sneak Attack +9d6
14 | Special Ability
15 | Sneak Attack +10d6

Rogue v2

Level | Abilities
1 | Sneak Attack, Trapfinding
2 | Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense
3 | Bonus Fighter Feat
4 | Improved Uncanny Dodge
5 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Improved Evasion
6 | Special Ability
7 | Bonus Fighter Feat
8 | Special Ability
9 | Bonus Fighter Feat
10 | Special Ability
11 | Bonus Fighter Feat
12 | Special Ability
13 | Bonus Fighter Feat
14 | Special Ability
15 | Bonus Fighter Feat

Sneak Attack (Ex): Functions conditionally as normal, but deals +1d6 Precision damage, and + 2 more Precision damage per Rogue level.
Trap Sense (Ex): Grants +1 bonus to all saves against traps for each Rogue level.

Prestige Class Compression
Assassin

Level | Abilities
1 | Sneak Attack, Death Attack, Poison Use
2 | Poison Resistance, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Improved Uncanny Dodge, +1 Spellcaster Level, Assassin Spells
4 | Hide In Plain Sight, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | +1 Spellcaster Level
6 | +1 Spellcaster Level
7 | +1 Spellcaster Level
8 | +1 Spellcaster Level
9 | +1 Spellcaster Level
10 | +1 Spellcaster Level

Sneak Attack (Ex): Assassin levels count as Rogue levels for adding to Sneak Attack damage.
Poison Resistance (Ex): Add Assassin class levels as a bonus to saves against Poison.
Assassin Spell List: Assassin spells are added to the list of spells a character may cast and/or prepare, if the character has a previous spellcasting class. Otherwise use the spell progression of a Wizard for each spellcaster level the Assassin class grants.
Arcane Archer

Level | Abilities
1 | Enhance Arrow, Imbue Arrow
2 | Seeker Arrow, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Phase Arrow, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 | Hail of Arrows, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | Arrow of Death, +1 Spellcaster Level

Enhance Arrow (Ex): Add Arcane Archer levels as a magical Enhancement bonus to ranged attacks the character fires.
Arcane Trickster
• 8 + INT skill points

Level | Abilities
1 | Ranged Legerdemain 1/hour, +1 Spellcaster Level
2 | Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/hour, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Ranged Legerdemain 1/minute, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 | Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/minute, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | Ranged Legerdemain at-will, +1 Spellcaster Level

Blackguard

Level | Abilities
1 | Aura of Evil, Detect Good, Poison Use, Command Undead,
2 | Dark Blessing, Smite Good, Sneak Attack
3 | Fiendish Servant, +1 Spellcaster Level, Blackguard Spells
4 | +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | +1 Spellcaster Level
6 | +1 Spellcaster Level
7 | +1 Spellcaster Level
8 | +1 Spellcaster Level
9 | +1 Spellcaster Level
10 | +1 Spellcaster Level

Sneak Attack (Ex): Blackguard levels count as Rogue levels for adding to Sneak Attack damage.
Blackguard Spell List: Blackguard spells are added to the list of spells a character may cast and/or prepare, if the character has a previous spellcasting class. Otherwise use the spell progression of a Cleric for each spellcaster level the Blackguard class grants.
Smite Good (Su): As normal, but occurs automatically against any being the Blackguard has identified as good.
Dragon Disciple
• 6 + INT skill points

Level | Abilities
1 | Natural Armor Bonus, Pure Muscle, 2 Claws 1d4 + STR, Bite 1d6 + 1/2 STR
2 | Breath Weapon, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Blindsense 30, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 | Wings, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | Dragon Apotheosis

Pure Muscle (Ex): The character adds Dragon Disciple levels as a racial bonus to Strength, and every even Dragon Disciple level as a racial bonus to Constitution.
Ability score adjustments from this ability do not stack with racial and enhancement bonuses.
Breath Weapon (Su): As a standard action every 1d4 rounds the character may breath a single energy type in a 60 foot cone, with a Reflex DC of 10 + 1/2 level + CON for half. The damage is equal to 1d6 per Dragon Disciple class level.
Dragon Apotheosis (Ex): Gain the Half-Dragon template, but ability score adjustments don't stack with those of the Pure Muscle ability.
Duelist

Level | Abilities
1 | Canny Defense, Improved Reaction +2
2 | Enhanced Mobility, Grace, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Precise Strike +1d6, Acrobatic Charge, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 | Elaborate Parry, Improved Reaction +4, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | Deflect Arrows, Precise Strike +2d6, +1 Spellcaster Level

Dwarven Defender

Level | Abilities
1 | Defensive Stance, Uncanny Dodge, AC Bonus
2 | Trap Sense, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Damage Reduction, Improved Uncanny Dodge, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 | Mobile Defense, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | Earthglide, +1 Spellcaster Level

AC Bonus (Ex):The character adds both Constitution bonus and Dwarven Defender levels to AC.
Defensive Stance (Ex): The bonuses are as normal, but are activated for 1 round after the character spends a Swift action. The character is not winded by using it and may make 5-foot steps during the stance. Enemies entering reach of the character halt all movement and may only make 5-foot steps while they are within reach on later rounds.
Trap Sense (Ex): Grants +1 bonus to all saves against traps for each Dwarven Defender level.
Damage Reduction (Ex): The character gains DR/- equal to their Dwarven Defender class levels.
Mobile Defense (Ex): The character is not restricted to 5-foot steps only while using Defensive Stance.
Earthglide (Su): The character may move through unworked stone and dirt as the Xorn ability.
Eldritch Knight
• HP is d10
• 4 + INT skill points

Level | Abilities
1 | Bonus Fighter Feat, Imbue Weapon
2 | Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 | Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
6 | Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
7 | Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
8 | Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
9 | Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
10 | Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level

Imbue Weapon (Su): Any weapon the character holds becomes a magical Spell Storing weapon as long as they have contact with it.
Horizon Walker
• HP is d8
• All saves are good
• 8 + INT skill points

Level | Abilities
1 | 2 Terrain Masteries
2 | 2 Terrain Masteries, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Terrain Mastery, Planar Terrain Mastery, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 | 2 Planar Terrain Masteries, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | 2 Planar Terrain Masteries, +1 Spellcaster Level

Terrain Mastery (Ex): As normal, but the skill benefit is equal to Horizon Walker class levels doubled, and the attack/damage benefit is equal to Horizon Walker levels.
Planar Terrain Mastery (Su): For each Planar Terrain Mastery known, twice per day the character may Plane Shift to or from any plane they have studied or are familiar with that matches the description of their particular Mastery.
Shifting (Planar): The character may use Teleport as a Move action once each 1d4 rounds.
Weightless (Planar): The character is constantly affected by Air Walk. In directionless and/or weightless environments the character may move at full speed in any direction.
Loremaster
• HP is d6
• 8 + INT skill points

Level | Abilities
1 | Secret, Lore
2 | Secret, Bonus Language, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Secret, Greater Lore, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 | Secret, Bonus Language, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | Secret, True Lore, +1 Spellcaster Level

Mystic Theurge

Level | Abilities
1 | Metamagic Feat
2 | +1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
3 | +1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
4 | +1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
5 | +1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
6 | Metamagic Feat
7 | +1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
8 | +1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
9 | +1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
10 | +1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)

Shadowdancer

Level | Abilities
1 | Hide In Plain Sight, Darkvision, Summon Shadow
2 | Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Silent Image at-will, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 | Defensive Roll, Summon Shadow 2, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 | Improved Uncanny Dodge, Slippery Mind, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 | Summon Shadow 3, Improved Evasion, +1 Spellcaster Level

Last edited by JonSetanta on Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:26 pm, edited 5 times in total.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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For Valor
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Post by For Valor » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:07 am

Paladin is still weak as fuck. Effectively a dead level every time "Cure Disease" is a class feature.

> Mask wrote:And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg.

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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:09 am

Well, yeah. I made feats for that (such as Remove Disease at-will) but this time I'm working entirely with core rules; this concept just smashes together 20 levels into an earlier progression since they expire soon anyway.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:00 am

Rogue benefits from this WAY more than any of the other classes if you're playing core only. If you allow spell compendium, then ranger, paladin, and bard get massive boosts too. The monk and fighter pretty much just suck no matter what. The only thing the ranger change does if you're only allowing core spells is to let it multiclass with something like rogue and still get the TWF line while being strength based.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:04 am

This was derived from core only. Any complications from splat abuse are an issue with splats.
The reason for Rogue going to 15 levels is because of its middle Tier placement.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:15 am

> sigma999 wrote:This was derived from core only. Any complications from splat abuse are an issue with splats.
> The reason for Rogue going to 15 levels is because of its middle Tier placement.

No... rogue is pretty much the best core class for dealing damage. Granted, some things are immune to sneak attack, but you can get around that with splats (gravestrike et all). Like, rogues dish out boatloads of damage. You increasing sneak attack progression only makes it better versus the things it is already good against and does nothing to make it contribute against anything with rogue immunity.
So, yeah. Rogue is totally fine as is.
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For Valor
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Post by For Valor » Sat Dec 11, 2010 5:37 am

Uber, I wouldn't say rogues are fine as-is. Competitive rogue builds seem to revolve around rings of blink, and use of gravestrike and golemstrike, and whatever the thing is to hit undead...
Rogues are very dependent on a few schticks and get boned when they don't have them (ring of blink, for instance, is 100% NECESSARY since flanking fucks you over. And flasks are a big one. And TWF.)
Rogues aren't fine as-is.... but you're right in that this is certainly not a fix for them.

> Mask wrote:And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg.

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Juton
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Post by Juton » Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:55 pm

The monk will still be fucking useless. Make Flurry of Blows a standard action and give the class full BAB and it may be a bit more useful than a fighter.
As for the Paladin, it sounds dirty to say but use the smite from the Pathfinder Paladin. With that you choose one enemy, and all your attacks get the normal smite bonus and you get CHA to AC against that target, the effect lasts all day.
EDIT: I voted I don't know, it makes Bards a lot more attractive but doesn't really fix a fighter.
Last edited by Juton on Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PoliteNewb » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:17 pm

Short answer: no, I wouldn't play most of those as is.
Suggestions:
Barbarian: Trap sense is ass, replace it with something; otherwise, looks fine. Might even just move DR up to be 1/2 level (maybe doubled when raging).
Bard: looks fine. If they need a little more juice, maybe an aura or 2 (from the Marshal). If you want a more jack-of-all-trades flavor, maybe borrow a little from the Factotum (brains over brawn is a good ability, and fitting with a bard skill-monkey).
Fighters: still suck balls. Suggestions:
a.) floating feats/wild card feats...could help make the fighter more versatile.
b.) fighters can ignore all feat prereqs. Yes, all.
c.) every odd level, give them a spell at will or constant. Use the normal formula for the level of the spell, and offer stuff that's fighter appropriate (Longstrider, Bull's Strength, Keen Edge, Haste, like that).
Any or all of those.
Monk: how much damage do they deal? It needs to be appropriate. If their schtick is still punching guys in the face, they need full BAB. Maybe give them a "light step/karumi-jutsu" thing like constant Pass Without Trace, Water Walk, and Air Walk (as they go up in level). I would swap the whole "Ki strike" thing for just allowing them to reduce hardness/DR by their level (or hell, maybe that in addition to ki strike, which lets them flat-out ignore specific kinds).
Paladin: maybe make Remove Disease something "Remove Affliction", which can also cure poison, ability damage, negative levels, paralysis, etc. At upper levels, I have no problem with just letting them cast stuff like Holy Smite, Holy Word, or Holy Aura when they use a Smite Evil (in addition to its normal effects).
Ranger: animal companion should be based on straight ranger level. Maybe a few flavor abilities (like at will Commune with Nature at higher level or something).
Rogue: I wouldn't advance sneak attack...it was already fine. Instead, swap Trap Sense (still ass) for letting them choose special abilities every 3 levels. Yes, that means we need filler for lvls 10 and 14; not sure what. At 14th, a constant Nondetection and Misdirection wouldn't be overpowered (call it "Sleight of Identity").
Last edited by PoliteNewb on Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:13 am

The objective here wasn't to create new things this time! I've done plenty of that.
This compression concept takes pre-existing non-caster class abilities and provides them earlier. That's all.
... But the class suggestions are well noted.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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tussock
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Post by tussock » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:24 am

Interesting. Here's more what I think you need to be in the game.
Fighter: All Combat Feats as fixed class abilities, at whatever level they're minimally achievable. 5/4 BAB, +1/4 AC, all good saves, heavy armour ease. Crappy spellcasting (Pal/Rgr, maybe as PPs) for basic anti-magic and divination and movement and mount finding (thematically from your awesum $weapon, but without really needing one).
Monk: 4/4 BAB, d12 HD, 8 skills, flurry with weapons, faster unarmed dice up to 2d20 or so, light armour ease, extra +10' speed unarmoured. /Way/ more movement spells, and some Charms and Necro. Cast like a PsiWar rather than x/day stuff. Stunning Blow as an unlimited swift cantrip, all splatty monk feats as swift powers. Gestalt in all the useful Ninja stuff for first strike fun and extra pain on the stunned.
Rgr: Favoured enemy at least +2 per level for all picks (and Humanoid as one pick). Spell progression to Bard-like. Bows and swords, duh. Druid pets and more Druid spells of fiery death. d10 HD, 5/4 BAB. Give them a good few Wizard spells too.
Pal: Smite Evil save or die plus d6/level. Cha-based spont divine spells as Bard. Dragon mounts. Classic holy avenger powers as spells (so they can cast anti-magic shell and such). Fold in your favourite class that does something interesting, be it bluemagic, auras, psi, weeaboo, or whatever.
Bard: All skills. All spells and psi and bluemagic and auras and weeaboo, but only like a Bard. 4/4 BAB. d10 HD. Bardsong at will. Can reselect feats in 10 minutes, and countersong everything. JOAT.
Barbarian and Psiwar: Gestalt, can use powers as swift while raging. More feats, and probably more PPs).
Rogue: fold in Ninja and Spellthief and Lurk. All skills, d8 HD. +1/4 AC.
Cleric: spont domains. No turn undead (make it and all it's funky attachments into regular spells).
Src: -1 ECL. All metamagic.
Wizard: Wins regardless, which is as it should be. All item creation.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:13 pm

I'd take levels in this monk class even with 3/4 BAB, although I'd bail after level 3 or 8.
The unarmed strike, however, is still hardly ever worth using. I'd probably go with 1d10 at 1st, 2d6 at 4th, 2d8 at 9th, and 2d10 at 10th. This puts it just on the edge of worthwhile, at least until you can get your hands on a nice magic stick.
The speed progression is also a bit odd, encouraging previously mentioned breakpoints. 1, 4, 5, 7, 9, and 10 is probably a more balance option.
You also need the AC bonus as well. They should probably get at least +3 (studded leather) right off the bat, so the additional +1 can probably come in at level 5.
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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:12 am

What would "-1 ECL" do? A free template?
Last edited by JonSetanta on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:35 am

> sigma999 wrote:What would "-1 ECL" do? A free template?

I think the idea is to get all spell casting a level earlier. The use of "ECL" is unfortunate.
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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Dec 13, 2010 3:37 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:I think the idea is to get all spell casting a level earlier. The use of "ECL" is unfortunate.

Ah that makes sense, the sorcerer does need a boost

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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Post by Username17 » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:02 am

At 20th level, you could have all published fighter feats, including all of the tactical feats, and all the weird crap like grenadier from splats. And you'd still suck.
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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:47 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:At 20th level, you could have all published fighter feats, including all of the tactical feats, and all the weird crap like grenadier from splats. And you'd still suck.
> -Username17

That's obvious.
... but at least for a little while, among the lower levels, they should suck less.
The compressed Fighter here made me laugh. It's just a row of feats as a class ability. At least it will fare better than having dead levels.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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Post by For Valor » Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:29 am

Well, I think the feat from ToB that grants a maneuver or stance is qualified as a fighter feat.... So if you had that for all the ToB maneuvers, you'd actually be quite decent.

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Post by Kaelik » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:10 am

> For Valor wrote:Well, I think the feat from ToB that grants a maneuver or stance is qualified as a fighter feat.... So if you had that for all the ToB maneuvers, you'd actually be quite decent.

Limit of taking it 3 times. So no.

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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:03 pm

> Kaelik wrote:Limit of taking it 3 times. So no.

Fucking RAW...

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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Post by For Valor » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:51 am

oh, well then....

> Mask wrote:And for the love of all that is good and unholy, just get a fucking hippogrif mount and pretend its a flying worg.

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Post by Sunwitch » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:26 am

the problem in a nutshell is that the class features that these classes have aren't any good in the first place; giving them the same class features in a shorter span of levels just gives them irrelevant abilities faster than they otherwise would.
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Post by PoliteNewb » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:42 am

> Mauver wrote:the problem in a nutshell is that the class features that these classes have aren't any good in the first place; giving them the same class features in a shorter span of levels just gives them irrelevant abilities faster than they otherwise would.

I disagree. Some of them aren't bad...at lower levels. So the very fact that you get them earlier, actually makes them better...because you're using them against opposition that doesn't render them irrelevant.
That said, some of them simply aren't enough...because they're competing with spells, which are a.) very broad-reaching and versatile in effect, b.) fairly powerful, and c.) customizable on a day-to-day basis. That is stiff competition.
Still, at lower levels, having the class features "I have a lot of hit points" and "when I bash people with a stick, they usually die" are actually much more worthwhile than at higher levels.
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Post by JonSetanta » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:21 am

The background of this concept was thusly;
Some BG members and I were discussing tiers, altered XP progressions, and slowing down spellcaster progressions.
I figured we could go about it a different way. Instead of slowing the spellcaster, speed up the non-caster.
20 levels of "warrior" classes is now equal to a gestalt character, compared to 20 levels of a single full caster. No XP adjustment is required, and spell slots remain within the 20-level window.
Yes, yes, I realize the former sucks and the latter is god, but it's still better off than what we had before.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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Post by tussock » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:54 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:At 20th level, you could have all published fighter feats, including all of the tactical feats, and all the weird crap like grenadier from splats. And you'd still suck.

Right. How many times can you cut your way into the belly of the infinite devourer and sever his attachment to the seven realities by destroying one of your artifact sets in his gizzard before it gets trite? Surely someone will notice that the quests always involve swording something with AC 60 and magic immunity, like you're giving a fully buffed fighter something to do.
Or, you know, the dragon casts anti-magic shell and swallows the Wizard, and all of a sudden the Fighter being 60' away is a good thing. Over and over again.
But then I remember the Cleric and Druid can do all that too, and cry. You know, back in OD&D, it took swords to be really cool, and only fighters got to use them.
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