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Miryafa
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### Rogue 2.0

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Post by Miryafa » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:23 pm

I've read the Tomes and a few of the threads here, and DM'd a Tome game. That's the extent of my experience with the Tomes. I like powerful characters and epic campaigns, and I tend to create overpowered homebrew by accident. Although I've homebrewed my own rpg and two MtG sets, I don't have much experience with design, and welcome criticism for this. My two goals for this are:
1. to raise the rogue from tier 4 to tier 1, and
2. to make every level an awesome level to be a rogue.
But before that, I have to talk about skills. In 3.x, the skill system is supposed to be the rogue's schtick, but as we all know it's completely broken and needs a major overhaul. But fixing the entire skill system is too large task to go into here. Moreover, since Frank and the Book of Prowess both provide possible fixes, I don't want to retread known ground. Basically. If you're using the 3.x skill system with or without Tome revisions, the abilities presented below can be accepted without change. If you're using the Book of Prowess, some abilities should be changed, eg. Double Jump is entirely unnecessary. If you're using any other system, choose a bonus or other interesting use of the skill abilities that fits within your system. This rogue is designed with version 0.7 of the Tomes from July 2010 in mind.
That said, there's one skill I'd like to change before I start, since I think it's both completely bonkers and closely tied with the rogue class: Sleight of Hand. The fact that a tiny-sized creature with +19 to Sleight of Hand can automatically steal a weapon larger than itself that their enemy is actually wielding at the time makes it absolutely silly, and would completely ruin any attempt at melee combat past level 7 or so if people played it by RAW. I don't think the basic idea of theft in combat is silly. It's actually pretty awesome and I like Final Fantasy games that allow that. But there need to be consequences past "I saw that!" Use this rule for pickpocketing instead.
Rogue
"I'm not cher daddy."
Just as fighters spend years training whereas a barbarian just picks up an axe, a rogue is anyone who wants to be stealthy without spending a decade studying the techniques of the fluffy clan ninja style or finding enlightenment in a monastery. Rogues are expected to dodge attacks and magic, disappear into shadows, carry daggers, and totally stab people in the back, or the face, or the leg, or whatever really. Rogues and stabbing just go together.
In terms of player skill, the rogue is closer to the Tome fighter than the thief-acrobat. He has a bunch of floating abilities at any one time and must choose how to best allocate them over the course of a round. Players who want something simple might prefer a thief-acrobat or ninja.
Hit Die: d6
Base Attack Bonus: Full
Good Saving Throws: Reflex
Skill Points: 8+Int
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex)
Alignment: Any
Proficiencies: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, all light melee weapons, all ranged martial weapons, and the rapier. Rogues are proficient with light armor and light shields.

Level | Abilities
01 | Savvy Pool, Deflection, Ingenuity, Luck, Sneak Attack, Finesse, Trapfinding
02 | Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes
03 | Blade Flick, Trap Sense, Underground Contacts (Locate Object)
04 | Double Jump, Uncanny Dodge
05 | Find An Opening, Full Strip
06 | Reflexive Combat, Shift
07 | Cover Me, Underground Contacts (Locate Creature)
08 | Disguise Surroundings (Seeming, Mirage Arcana), Improved Uncanny Dodge
09 | Gone Underground, Underground Contacts (Contact Other Plane)
10 | Special Ability
11 | Ingrain Muscle Memory, Disguise Surroundings (Veil)
12 | Special Ability
13 | Step Into Darkness
14 | Special Ability
15 | Disguise Surroundings (Screen), Underground Contacts (Discern Location)
16 | Special Ability
17 | Greater Shift, Souls Are Cash
18 | Special Ability
19 | Dark Revival
20 | Two Places At Once, Special Ability

Savvy Pool (Ex): A rogue gains a pool of savvy points equal to 3 + 1/2 his class level, rounded down, that represent the savviness he picks up just by staying alive. A rogue's savvy pool returns to max at the beginning of his turn.
For purposes of prerequisites, a rogue is considered to have sneak attack equal to half his total savvy pool, rounded up. A Rogue who gains Sneak Attack dice from another class instead gains 1 savvy point per 1d6 of Sneak Attack.
Deflection (Ex): Whenever an enemy makes an attack against a rogue, the rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool, as a nonaction, to force that enemy to reroll his attack. The decision to use this ability must be made before damage is rolled.
Ingenuity (Ex): As a free action, a rogue can spend 2 points from his savvy pool to add an insight bonus of 3 * his class level to a skill until the beginning of his next turn. Savvy points spent on a skill whose action is longer than 1 round do not return until the turn after the rogue has completed the action.
This ability can be used with the following skills: Appraise, Autohypnosis, Balance (except when used with Lightning Reflexes), Bluff*, Climb, Concentration*, Control Shape, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist*, Gather Information, Handle Animal*, Heal, Jump, Knowledge, Listen*, Open Lock, Psicraft*, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive*, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft*, Spot*, Survival, Swim, Tumble*, Truespeak, Use Magic Device, Use Psionic Device, and Use Rope*.
*Except on opposed checks or checks with variable DC, eg. a Concentration check vs damage. For purposes of this ability, adding situational modifiers, eg. securing a grappling hook 20 feet away with a Use Rope check, do not count as having a variable DC.
Luck (Ex): As a nonaction, a rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to reroll one roll he has just made. If he does, he cannot use the old result.
Sneak Attack (Ex): As a free action, a rogue can spend 2 points from his savvy pool to gain Sneak Attack equal to half his class level, rounded up, until the beginning of his next turn. This is Sneak Attack as per the 3.5 rogue with one exception: creatures immune to critical hits or precision damage instead take half damage from a rogue's sneak attack. A rogue attacks a construct's mechanical weak point, dismembers undead, strikes a plant's roots, lacerates bizarre anatomy, or scoops out chunks of ooze.
Finesse (Ex): When using a light weapon, rapier, or whip made for a creature of his size category, a rogue may use his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier on attack rolls. If he carries a shield, its armor check penalty applies to his attack rolls.
Trapfinding (Ex): As the 3.5 rogue.
Combat Reflexes (Ex): At 2nd level, a rogue can make a number of extra attacks of opportunity equal to his Dexterity bonus.
Lightning Reflexes (Ex): At 2nd level, a rogue gains Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat.
Blade Flick (Ex): At 3rd level, When using a weapon that Finesse applies to, a rogue adds his dexterity modifier to damage rolls.
Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him an insight bonus equal to half his class level (rounded down) on saves against trap effects and to his AC against attacks made by traps.
Underground Contacts (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue becomes known as a person who can find things. At the end of a Gather Information check, he can, as a standard action, mimic the effects of a single divination spell with caster level equal to his HD.
At 3rd level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Locate Object.
At 7th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Locate Creature.
At 9th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Contact Other Plane.
At 15th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Discern Location.
Double Jump (Ex): At 4th level, a rogue can use bits of fluff in the surrounding space as a platform for jumps. The rogue can make jump checks even if he is not standing on anything that could support his weight. The DC for the jump check is 30 + 1 per previous attempt this turn. Success means the rogue can jump a distance determined by the result of his check. Yes, this means he can cancel falling damage by jumping before he reaches the ground.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As the 3.5 rogue.
Find An Opening (Ex): At 5th level, whenever someone makes an attack roll that doesn't beat a rogue's AC, they are denied their dexterity bonus to AC against the rogue until the beginning of their next turn.
Full Strip (Ex): At 5th level, the rogue can use pickpocketing on any number of objects as a standard action.
Shift (Ex): At 6th level, a rogue can move with superhuman alacrity. As an immediate action, by spending a point from his savvy pool, the rogue gains an extra move action that must be used immediately.
At 17th level, the rogue gains a standard action instead of a move action.
Reflexive Combat (Ex): At 6th level, as an immediate action, a rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to make a roll as if he were making a reflex save. He may use the result as his AC for a number of rounds equal to his Base Attack Bonus. If he does, he cannot use this ability again until the duration has expired.
While under this effect, the rogue's Touch AC becomes equal to his AC.
Cover Me (Ex): At 7th level, a rogue can use allies as cover. If he succeeds a hide check while using an ally as cover, he can stay hidden as long as the ally is visible or until he attacks. A rogue using this ability can have cover against and hide from one enemy even if another can see him.
Disguise Surroundings (Ex): At 8th level, a rogue becomes a master of disguises. At the end of a disguise check, he can, as a standard action, mimic the effects of a single illusion spell with caster level equal to his HD. The saving throw DC for these abilities is 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier.
At 8th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of either Seeming or Mirage Arcana (chosen at the time the ability is used).
At 11th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Veil.
At 15th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Screen.
Divination effects that see through illusions, like True Seeing, are ineffective against this ability. Creatures do not resume their normal appearance when slain.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As the 3.5 rogue.
Gone Underground (Ex): At 9th level, a rogue can't be found if he doesn't want to be. He is continuously protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location.
A rogue can voluntarily suppress this ability. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a rogue suppresses the ability, it remains suppressed until the rogue's next turn. At the beginning of the rogue’s next turn, the protection automatically returns unless the rogue intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).
The protection even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the rogue’s location. In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area a rogue is in, the effect works, but the rogue simply isn't detected. Remote viewing or scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the rogue do not work.
Ingrain Muscle Memory (Ex): At 11th level, a rogue can train his muscles to react even when his mind can't reach them. After 10 minutes of mental preparation, he can create an ingraining. He chooses a single action that he can perform at the time of preparation (eg. use a skill, make an attack, activate a magic item), and sets the conditions for the ingraining. He can use any of his rogue abilities that would normally be available as part of the chosen action (eg. hide and use Cover Me). He can draw an object and use it as part of an ingraining, but if he doesn't have the item on his person, or it takes longer than a move action to draw it, at the time the conditions are met, the chosen action is wasted. And he'll look pretty silly trying to get his dagger to cast Teleport.
The conditions needed to bring the ingraining into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the ingraining immediately brings into effect the chosen action, the latter being done instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur, even if the rogue would normally be unable to accomplish the action (eg. from being stunned, cowering, or dead). If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the chosen action may fail when called on. The chosen action occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.
An ingraining lasts for 1 day per level or until discharged. A rogue can only have one ingraining created at a time.
Step Into Darkness (Ex): At 13th level, a rogue learns how to walk the paths of darkness. As a standard action, he can spend a point from his savvy pool to mimic the effects of Shadow Walk with caster level equal to his HD. The rogue and all other willing participants must be hidden or otherwise unobserved to begin the Shadow Walk. Unwilling or unaware targets receive a Will saving throw, DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier, to negate this effect.
Souls Are Cash (Sp): At 17th level, a rogue can steal souls for use as currency. As a standard action, a rogue can spend a savvy point to mimic the effects of Soul Bind with caster level equal to his HD. The saving throw DC for this abilities is 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier.
Dark Revival(Ex): At 19th level, a rogue always comes back. If he is ever slain, his body dissolves within one round and begins reforming on the Plane of Shadow. The reforming takes 1d4 days to complete. In the meantime, the rogue's senses travel with an illusory double that acts like a Trickery Devotion duplicate that appears at the start of his next turn after his death in the place he died. He can continue using the duplicate until he dismisses it or it is destroyed. In either case, his senses return to his body after the duplicate is gone.
Two Places At Once (Ex): At 20th level, a rogue can always have the perfect alibi. As a standard action, he can spend a point from his savvy pool to mimic the effects of Body Outside Body with caster level equal to his character level. He can dismiss the duplicates as a nonaction.
Special Abilities
Add the following to the list of special abilities the rogue can pick from:
Dexterous Fortitude (Ex)
When targeted by an effect that requires a Fortitude saving throw, the rogue may spend a point from his savvy pool to make a Reflex save instead to avoid the effect (evasion is not applicable). He may not use a Balance check for this save. This does not require an action.
Dexterous Will (Ex)
When targeted by an effect that requires a Will saving throw, the rogue may spend a point from his savvy pool to make a Reflex save instead to avoid the effect (evasion is not applicable). He may not use a Balance check for this save. This does not require an action.
Dissever (Ex)
As a free action, the rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to deal full sneak attack damage against enemies of any type until the beginning of his next turn.
Don't Look For Me (Ex)
Whenever the rogue is targeted by a device, power, spell or other effect that reveals location, he immediately becomes aware of the attempt, and may spend a point from his savvy pool to send the creature who originated the effect a nightmarish vision. They must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier) to disbelieve the nightmare or die from fear. This does not require an action.
Formlessness (Ex)
By spending 2 points from his savvy pool as a free action, the rogue gains the benefits of the Darkstalker feat until the beginning of his next turn.
Mind Blank (Sp)
As a free action, by spending a point from his savvy pool, the rogue gains the benefits of the Mind Blank spell until the beginning of his next turn.
Counterattack (Ex)
As a free action, the rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to gain the ability to make immediate counterattacks. If he does, until the beginning of his next turn, whenever someone makes an attack roll that doesn't beat the rogue's AC, they provoke an attack of opportunity from the rogue.
Stab Essence (Ex)
As a free action, the rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to attack the very essence of a person, resulting in wounds that cannot be healed normally. If he does, until the beginning of his next turn, all damage dealt by the rogue is treated as though it were Vile damage for purposes of healing effects, and his attacks ignore damage reduction.
Worm In (Ex)
As a free action, the rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to ignore either Armor or Natural Armor bonuses to his targets' AC until the beginning of his next turn.
Thief's Eye (Ex)
As a free action, by spending a point from his savvy pool, the rogue immediately gets a Spot check or Will save, whichever is appropriate, against every concealment (eg. disguise, hidden weapon, magical illusion, hidden creature or object) within 60'. Success means the rogue sees through those concealments.
Last edited by Miryafa on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:55 pm, edited 30 times in total.
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Atmo
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Post by Atmo » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:45 pm

You can use Sneak Attack with half of your pool, that's right?
&#9734; *World games are shit &#9734; M&M is shit &#9734; Fate fans gave me cancer &#9734;
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Rogue 2.0

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Post by Kaelik » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:33 pm

The flaws with this are many and legion.
1) You have given the Rogue more Sneak Attack than he otherwise had. This is stupid, Rogue Sneak Attack was fine at previous numbers, and did not need doubling. Make it so they can never have more SA than one half their level (rounded up). This also encourages them to save saavy for reactive defenses instead of just nova striking with all but one saavy point as SA.
2) All your mechanics need to be rewritten to account for actions. Things either need to be non actions, free actions, swift actions, or immediate actions.
Anything happening only on your turn is a free or swift. Anything happening on someone else's turn is a nonaction or immediate. Free actions on other peoples turns don't work. Lots of things aren't labeled at all, and I can't tell if you meant for them to be immediate or non actions.
3) Savvy adding to dice pools is fucking retarded. You completely break the RNG when you are talking about a level 5 Rogue adding +15 to all skills in addition to ranks and attributes.
It also doesn't work with your whole secret rolls thing, because when a DM rolls things in secret he is probably rolling both hide and move silent, or both spot and listen, or all four, and you are giving him an absurdly large bonus to all four in the same round, thus negating the refresh mechanic.
I would, as a DM just announce spot and listen and hide and move silent rolls all the time, and thus force him to actually spend saavy to get bonuses.
This also has the action problem. If he is rolling a skill reactively, he can't use a free action because it isn't his turn, but I think you mean for him to be able to.
4) Rerolls. There are a number of problems. In addition to the action ones above about free/non actions.
You say they have to decide to force a reroll before they know if they have succeeded. That doesn't work.
DM: Roll a reflex save, DC X.
Player: Rolls dice and sees X-5, knows bonus is +3. Knows they have failed, declares reroll.
Your rule basically requires DMs to not tell people the DCs they are aiming for until after the roll, but that isn't what groups actually do. Likewise, after the first time the monster attacks you, you just start figuring out it's AB, if the DM doesn't just tell you.
What you need to do is just let them reroll after it has been determined they have succeeded or failed.
Another problem is the line about "take the new result" that just means the old roll doesn't count, did you mean it to prevent them from spending 46 saavy points to force 46 rerolls until they get the 20 to succeed? Because that is what they will do if Finger of Death is cast at them. And that is terrible. You need to just say that they can not reroll a die they forced a reroll on.
5) Reflexive combat is bad. You can either keep it for "the combat" which is undefined, or you can do it again next turn. The first thing you need to do is copy the Tome Fighter Combat Focus mechanic and give an actual duration to the effect. I don't want to argue with the rogue player about whether or not they are always in combat with the rat in their bag, or whether or not when a Demon Teleports away and comes back an hour later they are still in the same combat.
The second thing you need to do is make it so they cannot end it next turn and reroll. Because right now, you roll a 5 on the dice, you reroll next turn, you roll a 15, you hold that roll forever. Ref saves on a Rogue are already going to be higher than their AC by a substantial margin without giving them the ability to have AC 15+bonuses instead of 10+ bonuses.
6) Disguise Surroundings is broken. The reason True Seeing exists is because it is impossible to play a game where Illusions fool either all monsters or all PCs no matter what they do.
Other problems include taking away someone's will save and replacing it with a spot check. Everything invests a certain amount into will saves just from leveling up, because that is how the system works. Not everything invests into spot. So already, anything with zero ranks in spot can never see through the illusion. Bad.
Secondly, because of saavy, nothing can ever pierce the illusion except another Rogue. Spot bonuses are going to be at level 8, 11 ranks+Wisdom+ maybe 4 for something in the 15-20 range, maybe as high as 25 for a Druid. A Rogue's disguise is going to be 11 ranks+Cha (so -1)+ situational modifiers and circumstances modifiers+21 untyped from saavy. Even if the Druid rolls a 20 and ends up with 45, still, the Rogue can roll a 10 and beat the druid. And the Druid is literally the highest spot in the game at that level.
7) You should limit it to one Contingency at a time.
8) Absolutely not. Under no circumstances, can you give this class Body Outside Body as a class feature. Definitely not levels before anyone else gets it. The only thing that makes Body Outside Body not the most broken spell in the Universe is that you have to be able to cast high level spells to cast it, and it doesn't let your duplicates cast spells. So you are losing your most important class feature. But even despite that, it is still one of the most broken spells, just not the most broken. What happens when a Rogue who doesn't cast spells gets to use Body Outside Body? Fucking absurd shit is the goddam answer.
And don't even get me started on how even the Duplicates have the same ability at level 17. I know it is level 17, but wait until level 20 before you give your character the class ability to sit at home drinking beer while his clone army adventures for him.
9) Steal Building is bad. You apparently intend for it to be an ability that is really too strong, but limited by having a hard to reach DC. But you put it on the class with +$TEXAS to skills. A level 10 Rogue can fucking auto-succeed on a DC 50 Sleight of hand on a 1.
10) Worst for last: Hiding.
Now, most of the problems with Hiding are 3.5 problems, but you have exasperated them with this class. Once you hit level 10, the Rogue becomes the Angel Summoner and every other class becomes the BMX Bandit. The Rogue tells everyone else to wait outside while he kills everything in the game, and then he does.
The first thing you need to understand is that if you can beat someone elses spot with your Hide, and their Listen with your MS, you are effectively untargetable. No one in the game can possibly every detect a Rogue, except maybe other Rogues.
Move Silent is based on moving. When you teleport, you don't even have to trigger it, so already Rogues just use Hide. Now, when you are hiding as a Rogue at level 10, you have a 1d20+Dex+Size+13 ranks+30 untyped. So... You are invisible. And then you silently teleport. Now, since nothing could ever beat your spot check, you move on to other methods. Blindsight, nope, Darkstalker. Not having concealment? Nope, Hide in plaint Sight.
Okay, so the Rogue sneaks in and brutally murders something by having 9d6 SA and doing like 5 attacks because he starts adjacent to them by teleporting from last round. After he kills the thing, because he does kill the thing, the next round starts. Now, the obvious counter to this strategy is to have multiple enemies. But multiple enemies means lower Attack Bonuses. So as soon as one of those attacks misses, the Rogue instantly disappears and teleports 40ft. Then he sets up the next murder.
Anything that creates an optimal strategy of letting the Rogue handle everything while everyone else waits outside is a bad idea. The Rogue will be upset when everyone else gets in the way of his murder assassinating by making a rush job, and everyone else will be upset when he does his assassinating, because they want to play the game too.
You want a mechanic that encourages the Rogue to want to fight with party members around.
Solutions:
1) Get rid of Darkstalker. It is literally the dumbest feat that has ever existed. Even dumber than the Complete Mage on that makes ten damage untyped.
2) Get rid of hide in plain sight, and get ride of thing where he hides on a missed attack. Let him teleport on a missed attack instead of on a hide check. Now he still has to actually use Move Silent in order to approach people.
3) Instead of Hide in Plain Sight, give him the ability to use allies as cover to hide, and say that he can stay hidden as long as the ally is visible or until he attacks.
This makes it so that he wants allies there to teleport behind and hide with them as cover. Then he can run out from behind them silently and gank someone, at which point he can try to hide behind allies again.
Now Hide is a defensive and offensive option in combat, but in a way that incentivizes him to play with a party.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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Sunwitch
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###

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Post by Sunwitch » Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:42 am

You may also want to bear in mind that Rogue is, Tier 2, not 4, on that goofy tier list thing (which really shouldn't be taken too seriously in the first place). It honestly performs fairly well on its own in Tome games, and doesn't need that much of a boost. A little more versatility and thematic diversity might be good (not everyone wants to be throwing acid flasks all the time), but over and above that, it's not desirous of that much of an upgrade. Certainly not as much as an SRD Monk, which is an actual Tier 4 class, would need.
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Miryafa
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Post by Miryafa » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:05 am

Thanks Atmo for the reply and Kaelik for the in-depth critique. I've made all the changes you suggested, but it does raise some questions from me.
1. I'm not convinced savvy adding to dice pools is a bad thing with regards to flat DCs. I agree it's bad with opposed Disguise/Spot checks as you point out. But even then, as the BoP points out, the skill system's design results in the party losing opposed skill checks all the time. Is it really a bad thing to just give the rogue +3/level to his skills?
2. I usually don't tell players the DC before they roll, so that was my experience coming through in the reroll ability. I've changed it. I had meant that if you wanted to, you could keep rerolling until you got a 20 or ran out of points, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing, because the rogue won't have all that many savvy points (until level 16 or so) if he spent them on 1/2 his level+ on SA. Is it? In any case, I've changed the ability.
3. True Seeing negates illusions at higher levels. I don't think it's impossible to play a game where illusions always beat everybody, but I do think it's impossible to play a Beguiler in a game with a character like Erza from Fairy Tail, who has an eye that sees through all illusions. Am I wrong? Is there a middle ground?
Edit 4: 4. Darkstalker may be a terrible feat, but the rogue handbook lists it as mandatory for high level play, and Iron Chef optimization challenges I've been in agree. I added it as a class ability because feat taxes can go DIAF. Isn't Darkstalker necessary for the rogue?
Edit 3: 5. With the changes I made, the rogue now has more savvy points than he can realistically use at higher levels. Is that just me? I think I won't change it unless someone agrees.
Other notes:
I had expected that sneak attack could be used more than 1/2 level, and didn't see that as a bad thing. At higher levels I expected a rogue to use about 1/2 to 3/4 of their pool on SA because he has better things to do with the other points. I understand I was mistaken.
I've rewritten all the abilities to account for actions. I thought that free actions were available off-turn, and on rechecking the rules find that I am wrong. I thought that the abilities were clear, eg. for Underground Contacts you would spend a savvy point and the action would be the same as the action for the Gather Information check (1d4+1 hours), but I have written it more clearly.
Whoops. You're absolutely right about Reflexive Combat's duration, and that was one of the things I tried (and failed) to avoid. Changed.
I didn't know Craft Contingent Spell was that broken. Changed.
I didn't know people cared that much about level 17. Changed.
Steal Building wasn't meant to be difficult, because at level 10 I figured a naked rogue could pull it off on a 3 (13 ranks + 4 dex + 30 untyped). It was meant to be a level 17 ability that I felt I couldn't just stick in there after 16 levels of no Sleight of Hand support, and so got sidelined to a Special Ability.
I like your hiding suggestions, and it helps me cut down on some of the ability glut for the early levels, which I was looking to do.
I'm glad to see that full BAB, savvy pool's exp. increase, deflection, revised SA, finesse, combat reflexes, lightning reflexes, blade flick, revised trap sense, Underground Contacts, Find an Opening, Dextrous Will, Double Jump, Gone Underground, Ingrain Muscle Memory's basic mechanic, Step Into Darkness, Don't Look For Me, Mind Blank, Slip Behind, and Stab Essence weren't considered broken.

> Mauver wrote:You may also want to bear in mind that Rogue is, Tier 2, not 4, on that goofy tier list thing (which really shouldn't be taken too seriously in the first place). It honestly performs fairly well on its own in Tome games, and doesn't need that much of a boost. A little more versatility and thematic diversity might be good (not everyone wants to be throwing acid flasks all the time), but over and above that, it's not desirous of that much of an upgrade. Certainly not as much as an SRD Monk, which is an actual Tier 4 class, would need.

I was not aware (and we didn't use it in mine). Noted.
Edit: but the monk is tier 5, not 4.
Edit 2: Tier 4 describes classes that are good at their job, but not very variable.
Edit 5: I just realized we may be talking about different tier systems. Did you mean this one?
Last edited by Miryafa on Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:32 am

Before someone has an aneurism because you refer to tiers again, here's a quick primer:
Design is based on your contributions to combat. People call rogues "Tier 4" because someone with a huge penis ego wrote something about it one time and refuses to admit that rogues regularly outperform everyone they're coupled on the list with. Having 8 + Int skills, UMD, and enough damage to kill everything makes rogues very good if you build them with wands of the right buff spells.
The buff spells are a good idea. If you wanted to, you could switch Darkstalker to an ability that lets you pay X from your savvy pool to ignore those things monsters have for 1 round, where X is a Big Number and goes up by CR.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Post by Sigil » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:42 am

> ...You Lost Me wrote:Before someone has an aneurism...

Whoa man, I think you had the aneurism. You see a doctor about that?
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:01 am

Someone means me, mostly. Lots of people om IMOI are good at filtering things.
Like Kaelik. He's good at ignoring dumb things. [/joke?]
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Post by Guyr Adamantine » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:15 am

I think he means the quintuple post.
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:36 am

Wow I completely missed that. How do I even internet...

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Post by Miryafa » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:28 am

> ...You Lost Me wrote:Before someone has an aneurism because you refer to tiers again, here's a quick primer:
> Design is based on your contributions to combat. People call rogues "Tier 4" because someone with a huge penis ego wrote something about it one time and refuses to admit that rogues regularly outperform everyone they're coupled on the list with. Having 8 + Int skills, UMD, and enough damage to kill everything makes rogues very good if you build them with wands of the right buff spells.
> The buff spells are a good idea. If you wanted to, you could switch Darkstalker to an ability that lets you pay X from your savvy pool to ignore those things monsters have for 1 round, where X is a Big Number and goes up by CR.

I think JaronK did basically say that the rogue performed better than other tier 4 classes, since his only justification for making it tier 4 was that the factotum straight outclassed it and was tier 3.
In any case, I like that idea about darkstalker. How about this:
Out Of Sight (Ex): At 10th level, a rogue can hide from everything. By spending a number of points from his savvy pool equal to half the CR of the highest CR creature in sight, the rogue gains the benefits of the Darkstalker feat until the beginning of his next turn.
The only problem I have with that is it requires in advance that you know the CR of your opponent, or forces your DM to give it away by telling you how many points to spend. Is there a way to make it work without that?
Edit: Also, I added Souls Are Cash just so the rogue wouldn't have a (mostly) dead level at 17. But I'm not really happy with it, and I don't know that it meshes well with the rest of the class. Can someone comment on that?
Last edited by Miryafa on Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:31 am

> I think JaronK did basically say that the rogue performed better than other tier 4 classes, since his only justification for making it tier 4 was that the factotum straight outclassed it and was tier 3.

Ayyyyyup. Aneurism right here.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Post by Koumei » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:45 am

Step 1 is to print out your information on tiers, and then use that print-out as lavatory paper.
But aside from that, if I wanted to "fix" the Rogue or rather, do my own version, it wouldn't be a radical change:
1. Spell out how some skills work (Disable Device works on locks and apparently any non-Instant magical effect, so they can Disable ongoing spells, try to find a way to make stealth work in an acceptable manner)
2. Let Sneak Attack affect more things based on Knowledge skills (Engineering for Constructs, Religion for Undead, Nature for Plants, Planes for Elementals that appear to be "shaped" and not just blobs).
3. Give them a bunch of minor selection things every even level. So odd levels are Sneak Attack, Yay! Even levels can let them choose things like "Jumping like a Monk does" or whatever. Generally they're not huge power ups, but they'd give more choices, some fun abilities and reduce their dependency on Abuse Magic Device for other stuff.
4. Call it a day, go have a nap.

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Post by Miryafa » Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:53 pm

> Koumei wrote:But aside from that, if I wanted to "fix" the Rogue or rather, do my own version, it wouldn't be a radical change

I was looking forward to your critique, but it seems like you haven't read the class at all. Edit for clarity:
The point isn't to fix the rogue, but to bring the rogue up to the wizard's level of power. Arguably the wizard is the one that needs to be fixed, and partially has been with the creation of the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage. But that's not the point of this thread. The point is to create a rogue that can compete with a wizard.
Edit 2: Just like the Tome Fighter, which I think is really cool.
Last edited by Miryafa on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:39 pm

> Miryafa wrote:I think JaronK did basically say that the rogue performed better than other tier 4 classes, since his only justification for making it tier 4 was that the factotum straight outclassed it and was tier 3.

Long story short, The Factotum Wars are the time that JaronK and I argued about the relative effectiveness of the Rogue versus the Factotum.
The statement "The Factotum straight outclasse" is so unbelievably false that it hurts my brain to read it.
JaronK has a problem with his Tier system. The problem is that he compares classes at their "standard optimization level" and the way he defines standard optimization is he just makes shit up.
A "standard" Factotum to him involves Item Familiar, an incorrect interpretation of a online supplement, using a 3.0 setting book that is a different setting than you are actually playing. (How many DMs let you play a Planar Shepard in FR or Greyhawk?).
His definition of a standard Rogue is a core Rogue who doesn't optimize to get SA every round and can't SA undead/constructs. When I presented an optimized Rogue it did much more damage than his Factotum could ever hope to, and unlike his Factotum, it got that extra damage every round.
His very limited spells several levels too late did not make up for that. But he threw a fit because it was unfair for me to use Item Familiar on my Rogue when comparing it to his Item Familiared Factotum.
The same with Dread Necromancers and Beguilers. He compares a Sorcerer to a Dread Necromancer and assumes the best spells for the Sorcerer, and no feats for the Dread Necro, like Arcane Disciple.
The Dread Necromancer can match a Sorcerer at the same levels of optimization, but because it fits with his theme that versatility is power, he ranks the goddam Favored Soul, a trashy class, above the Beguiler and Dread Necro that are much better.
Basically, at every level, he compares a Sorcerer with more optimization to a Dread Necromancer with less.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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Post by Wiseman » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:05 pm

So is this usable right now?
Also, on sneak attack, by half your level do you mean character level or class level?
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> > TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".

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Post by Miryafa » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:32 am

Wow, Kaelik, I had no idea. That's fascinating to read. I think I'll have to look into TGD's "levels of balance" page more closely now.

> Wiseman wrote:So is this usable right now?
> Also, on sneak attack, by half your level do you mean character level or class level?

I think it's ready for play (but will defer to others if they disagree), and it could use some playtesting in any case.
And SA should be 1/2 class level. Fixed.
Edit: And I think I've found a way to make Out Of Sight playable without the DM telling you the CR of your enemies: you guess, and spend points accordingly. Added that.
Last edited by Miryafa on Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TarkisFlux » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:10 am

This is pretty late to the party, but whatever.

> Miryafa wrote:Wow, Kaelik, I had no idea. That's fascinating to read. I think I'll have to look into TGD's "levels of balance" page more closely now.

TGD doesn't have one specifically, though the one at the wiki has been endorsed by a few non-wiki people (including Frank, though I can't be assed to cite that). It's primarily built around the idea of placing builds (not classes, because sandbagging and optimization) and options/tactics in groups based on when they start to fall behind the CR curve. Here's a link. Full disclosure, I've probably written or re-written most of that page by now.

On to things from the actual class!
Savvy Pool: From levels 1-10 you can spend half your points for full SA, and the other half on equal(ish) CR darkstalker or a few rerolls / teleport hops per round. There's actual tactical choice in there because of the pool and cost scaling. After 10 it just goes off the rails, and by 20 you have 26 points to spend on rerolls and hops after spending up to full SA and darkstalker. While that might be intentional, I'm not really for that sort of resource management explosion. Particularly with the lack of high cost, high level savvy options that might justify it.
As an alternative, you could just do Savvy Pool = Int mod with full SA or full darkstalker costing 2 points and other costs unchanged (since they already scale with level, or are re-rolls and don't scale anyway). That removes some of the resource explosion at later levels except for wish economy Int boosting which will leave you with a bit more laying around. It's still less than listed here and a more appropriate amount to have laying around given the other other abilities and counter stuff.
Underground Contacts: It's sort of ambiguous whether you spend the standard action for one of those things or for all of those things. Maybe drop the word "instead" in the advancement text so that the choice is more obvious?
Reflexive Combat: This ability is somewhat non-awesome until you start making balance checks in place of reflex saves starting at level 6. This makes balance skill items really really strong as cheap AC boosts, and means you're basically never going to be hit so long as you keep that up. Since it's cheap as free in any savvy pool mechanic, it will always be up. And since tons of stuff triggers on a miss (find an opening, don't blink, slip behind), making an attack roll against the Rogue just means that they get to do bad things to you. Ranged revenge rogue is a reasonable build at that point, and they don't need a lot of savvy to pull it off.
Discussion of what their touch and flatfooted ACs are while this is active would be nice though
Dextrous Will: For the love of <insert relevant figure here>, please specify that this forces you to use your actual reflex save and that you can't swap out the referred to reflex save for a balance check. Balance check will saves are nuts and it's not like their reflex save was going to be small at this point anyway.
Disguise Surroundings: Like underground contacts, maybe drop the word "instead" in the advancement text so that the choice is more obvious?
And if you're going to let magic pierce it it should probably be Su instead of Ex. Or you can just not let magic pierce it and make the changes actual things.
Gone Underground: The fluff text indicates that it can be suppressed, but you don't actaully say that you can do so or how it works.
General Comments
All spell and power references need a way to determine CL for effect purposes. Shadow walk, dimension hop, etc. Half of them have it, so this is mostly just a completeness thing.
While you really don't want to add +$TEXAS to anything that someone else might oppose (like hide), you might be able to get away with it on things that aren't opposed or that aren't reflexive. I don't care about +$TEXAS on an appraise, balance, or escape artist check, and I'm not sure I care about them on a non-reflexive spot or search check to find hidden / invisible things (though being able to add it when the DM asks you to make a check for something is probably out of line). I don't have the original version of the ability present, but "spend savvy points to get a bonus equal to double/tripple ranks" is sufficiently high as to unlock bullshit epic high level skill uses and would probably be fine. But you should have a defined skill list that it can apply to, and nonaction uses of those skills need to be right out.
If you want to add something, an immediate action move that took effect before the triggering action resolved (so you can move out of AoEs or behind cover or whatever) might be a useful addition. A rogue version of the Tome Fighter's foil if you will, without all of the annoyances of that ability. It's not like they have anything else to do with their swift or immediate or swift actions after getting their balance check AC out.
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Miryafa » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:40 am

I ran dnd-wiki's SGT with this rogue, and here are the results. I skipped some of the level 15 tests for some because I didn't have source material and for others because I wanted to get a move on and make some more changes to the rogue. For posterity, this is the rogue I use for this test:
Hit Die: d6
Base Attack Bonus: Full
Good Saving Throws: Reflex
Skill Points: 8+Int
Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex)
Alignment: Any
Proficiencies: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, all light melee weapons, all ranged martial weapons, and the rapier. Rogues are proficient with light armor and light shields.

Level | Abilities
01 | Savvy Pool 1, Deflection, Luck, Sneak Attack, Finesse, Trapfinding
02 | Savvy Pool 2, Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes
03 | Savvy Pool 3, Blade Flick, Trap Sense, Underground Contacts (Locate Object)
04 | Savvy Pool 4, Reflexive Combat, Uncanny Dodge
05 | Savvy Pool 5, Find An Opening, Full Strip
06 | Savvy Pool 6, Don't Blink, Dextrous Will
07 | Savvy Pool 7, Double Jump, Underground Contacts (Locate Creature)
08 | Savvy Pool 8, Cover Me, Disguise Surroundings (Seeming, Mirage Arcana), Improved Uncanny Dodge
09 | Savvy Pool 9, Gone Underground, Underground Contacts (Contact Other Plane)
10 | Savvy Pool 10, Out Of Sight, Special Ability
11 | Savvy Pool 12, Ingrain Muscle Memory, Disguise Surroundings (Veil)
12 | Savvy Pool 14, Special Ability
13 | Savvy Pool 16, Step Into Darkness
14 | Savvy Pool 18, Special Ability
15 | Savvy Pool 20, Disguise Surroundings (Screen), Underground Contacts (Discern Location)
16 | Savvy Pool 25, Special Ability
17 | Savvy Pool 30, Souls Are Cash
18 | Savvy Pool 35, Special Ability
19 | Savvy Pool 40, Dark Revival
20 | Savvy Pool 46, Two Places At Once, Special Ability

Savvy Pool (Ex): A rogue gains a pool of savvy points that represent the savviness he picks up just by staying alive. A rogue's savvy pool returns to max at the beginning of his turn.
For purposes of prerequisites, a rogue is considered to have sneak attack equal to half his total savvy pool, rounded up. Prestige classes that advance sneak attack also advance his savvy pool by 2 points per die. Feats that require a rogue to give up sneak attack dice instead require him to spend a point from his savvy pool per die sacrificed.
Deflection (Ex): Whenever an enemy makes an attack against a rogue, the rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool, as a nonaction, to force that enemy to reroll his attack. The decision to use this ability must be made before damage is rolled.
Luck (Ex): As a nonaction, a rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to reroll one roll he has just made. If he does, he cannot use the old result.
Sneak Attack (Ex): As a free action, a rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to gain sneak attack +1d6 until the start his next turn. This ability works as with the 3.5 rogue with one exception: creatures immune to critical hits or precision damage instead take half damage from a rogue's sneak attack. A rogue attacks a construct's mechanical weak point, dismembers undead, strikes a plant's roots, lacerates bizarre anatomy, or scoops out chunks of ooze. Multiple uses of this ability stack.
A rogue can never have spend more than half his class level in savvy points, rounded up, on this ability.
Finesse (Ex): When using a light weapon, rapier, or whip made for a creature of his size category, a rogue may use his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier on attack rolls. If he carries a shield, its armor check penalty applies to his attack rolls.
Trapfinding (Ex): As the 3.5 rogue.
Combat Reflexes (Ex): At 2nd level, a rogue can make a number of extra attacks of opportunity equal to his Dexterity bonus.
Lightning Reflexes (Ex): At 2nd level, a rogue gains Lightning Reflexes as a bonus feat.
Blade Flick (Ex): At 3rd level, When using a weapon that Finesse applies to, a rogue adds his dexterity modifier to damage rolls.
Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him an insight bonus equal to half his class level (rounded down) on saves against trap effects and to his AC against attacks made by traps.
Underground Contacts (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue becomes known as a person who can find things. At the end of a Gather Information check, he can, as a standard action, mimic the effects of Locate Object with caster level equal to his character level.
At 7th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Locate Creature.
At 9th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Contact Other Plane.
At 15th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Discern Location.
Reflexive Combat (Ex): At 4th level, as an immediate action, a rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to make a roll as if he were making a reflex save. He may use the result as his AC for a number of rounds equal to his Base Attack Bonus. If he does, he cannot use this ability again until the duration has expired.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As the 3.5 rogue.
Find An Opening (Ex): At 5th level, whenever someone makes an attack roll that doesn't beat a rogue's AC, they are denied their dexterity bonus to AC against the rogue until the beginning of their next turn.
Full Strip (Ex): At 5th level, the rogue can steal any number of items as a standard action. By succeeding on a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check + 1 per previous attempt this action, the rogue can steal an extra item and store it on his person. Failure on any of the checks provokes an attack of opportunity.
Don't Blink (Ex): At 6th level, whenever someone makes an attack roll that doesn't beat a rogue's AC, the rogue may spend a point from his savvy pool to teleport a short distance, as though he had used Dimension Hop.
Dextrous Will (Ex): At 6th level, a rogue can dodge mental attacks. He can spend a point from his savvy pool to make a reflex save in place of a will save.
Double Jump (Ex): At 7th level, a rogue can use bits of fluff in the surrounding space as a platform for jumps. The rogue can make jump checks even if he is not standing on anything that could support his weight. The DC for the jump check is 30 + 1 per previous attempt this turn. Success means the rogue can jump a distance determined by the result of his check. Yes, this means he can cancel falling damage by jumping before he reaches the ground.
Cover Me (Ex): At 8th level, a rogue can use allies as cover. If he succeeds a hide check while using an ally as cover, he can stay hidden as long as the ally is visible or until he attacks. A rogue using this ability can have cover against and hide from one enemy even if another can see him.
Disguise Surroundings (Ex): At 8th level, a rogue becomes a master of disguises. At the end of a disguise check, he can, as a standard action, mimic the effects of Seeming or Mirage Arcana with caster level equal to his character level. The saving throw DC for these abilities is 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier.
At 11th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Veil.
At 15th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Screen.
Divination effects that see through illusions are also effective against this ability. Creatures do not resume their normal appearance when slain.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As the 3.5 rogue.
Gone Underground (Ex): At 9th level, a rogue can't be found if he doesn't want to be. He is continuously protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location.
The ability even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the rogue’s location. In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area a rogue is in, the effect works, but the rogue simply isn't detected. Remote viewing or scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the rogue do not work.
Out Of Sight (Ex): At 10th level, a rogue can hide from anything. By spending a point from his savvy pool as a free action, the rogue gains the benefits of the Darkstalker feat against enemies of CR 2 or less until the beginning of his next turn. Multiple uses of this ability in one turn add 2 to the CR per savvy point spent.
Ingrain Muscle Memory (Ex): At 11th level, a rogue can train his muscles to react even when his mind can't reach them. After 10 minutes of mental preparation, he can create a contingency. He chooses a single action that he can perform at the time of preparation (eg. use a skill, make an attack, activate a magic item), and sets the conditions for the contingency. He can use any of his rogue abilities that would normally be available as part of the chosen action (eg. hide and use Don't Blink). He can draw an object and use it as part of a contingency, but if he doesn't have the item on his person, or it takes longer than a move action to draw it, at the time the conditions are met, the chosen action is wasted. And he'll look pretty silly trying to get his dagger to cast Teleport.
The conditions needed to bring the contingency into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the chosen action, the latter being done instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur, even if the rogue would normally be unable to accomplish the action (eg. from being stunned, cowering, or dead). If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the chosen action may fail when called on. The chosen action occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.
A contingency lasts for 1 day per level or until discharged. A rogue can only have one contingency created at a time.
Step Into Darkness (Ex): At 13th level, a rogue learns how to walk the paths of darkness. Whenever he succeeds a Hide check, as a nonaction, he can mimic the effects of Shadow Walk.
Souls Are Cash (Sp): At 17th level, a rogue can steal souls for use as currency. As a standard action, a rogue can spend a savvy point to mimic the effects of Soul Bind.
Dark Revival(Ex): At 19th level, a rogue always comes back. If he is ever slain, his body dissolves within one round and begins reforming on the Plane of Shadow. The reforming takes 1d4 days to complete. In the meantime, the rogue's senses travel with an illusory double that acts like a Trickery Devotion duplicate that appears at the start of his next turn after his death in the place he died. He can continue using the duplicate until he dismisses it or it is destroyed. In either case, his senses return to his body after the duplicate is gone.
Two Places At Once (Ex): At 20th level, a rogue can always have the perfect alibi. As a standard action, he can spend a point from his savvy pool to mimic the effects of Body Outside Body with caster level equal to his character level. He can dismiss the duplicates as a nonaction.
Special Abilities
Add the following to the list of special abilities the rogue can pick from:
Don't Look For Me (Ex)
Whenever the rogue is targeted by a device, power, spell or other effect that reveals location, he immediately becomes aware of the attempt, and may choose to send the creature who originated the effect a nightmarish vision. They must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier) to disbelieve the nightmare or die from fear.
Mind Blank (Sp)
The rogue is continuously protected by the Mind Blank spell.
Slip Behind (Ex)
Whenever someone makes an attack roll that doesn't beat the rogue's AC, they provoke an attack of opportunity from the rogue.
Stab Essence (Ex)
The rogue has learned how to attack the very essence of a person, resulting in wounds that cannot be healed normally. All damage dealt by a rogue is treated as though it were Vile damage for purposes of healing effects, and his attacks ignore damage reduction.
Now the results. For reference, I don't use "Sure win" unless the odds are overwhelmingly in the testee's favor, eg. all opponents only hit on a 20 and he can take them down quickly, or he can win without risk, eg. while sitting at home drinking coffee. For this test, I use these hypothetical stats with elite array: 10/15/14/13/8/12
Level 5 test:
stats: 10/16/14/13/8/12, HP 5d6+10 = 27
Assumed items: a masterwork tool for common skills, chainmail, a weapon the rogue can use Finesse with, a longbow
1. A locked door behind an arbitrarily high number of assorted CR 4 traps.
rogue search L5 = 8 ranks + 1 int + 2 trap sense + 2 masterwork item = +13, trap search DCs 20-28 (success on 7-15)
A level 5 rogue has 5 SP, and can spend all of them on each search check, since they essentially take 1 round each. Ignoring the traps with less than a DC28 search check, and assuming there's no multiple abjurations to give a +4 search bonus, he misses at the following rate:
0 sp 0.7
1 sp 0.49
2 sp 0.343
3 sp 0.2401
4 sp 0.16807
5 sp 0.117649
So he doesn't find 11% of the traps. Of those, we have Bestow Curse DC14 Will auto-reset that activates on Chaotic creatures, Glyph of Warding 2d8 vs DC14 ref with no reset, a lightning bolt 5d6 vs DC14 ref autoreset, and Sepia Snake Sigil vs DC14 ref with no reset. Arbitrary amount of traps means the rogue can't use Luck against all of them, so I'll ignore it.
Bestow Curse: Bad will save means the rogue loses and sucks.
Glyph of Warding: Reflex +10 means rogue saves
Lightning bolt: same
Sepia Snake Sigil: same
rogue disable device L5 = 8 ranks + 1 int + 2 trap sense + 2 masterwork item = +13, trap DD DCs 17-28
Unlike search, the rogue can't use Luck (except with a generous DM), so he fails 70% of the high-DC disable device checks.
He can probably unlock the door though.
On the other hand, if the rogue has wands of Knock and Summon Monster 1, he can UMD a celestial tree sloth to open the door and take the hits.
rogue UMD l5 = 8 ranks + 1 cha + 2 masterwork item = +11, 5 sp gives ~25% failure rate, so likely win
So the rogue has a Sure Loss if he uses one of his main class features, but a Likely Win if he uses UMD. I don't know how to call it (likely loss?)
Side note: the scrapped Insight ability was created in part to deal with this, and would give the rogue a +15 bonus required for a sure win using Trapfinding.
2. A huge Animated iron statue in a throne room.
rogue l5 tumble = 8 ranks + 3 dex + 2 masterwork item = +13 tumble, Luck can reroll 1s so he auto-succeeds approaching without being hit
3 sp for 3d6 SA, divided by 2 against a construct
1 sp for Reflexive Combat = 20 AC average + 4 armor + 3 Dex = AC 27, enemy hits on a 18
1 sp floating for Luck or Deflection (alt. 2d6 SA leaves 2sp for both), deflection every round means the animated object will never virtually never hit the rogue or be able to start a grapple, and Find The Opening means the rogue can then SA every round.
Likely win.
3. A Basilisk in its desert burrow.
Assuming the basilisk didn't steal anything, Locate Object won't help find it, so we'll assume it starts combat.
rogue fort 1 class + 2 con = +3 vs DC13, success 55% of the time before Luck rerolls, >95% after 4 rerolls, so success. If the rogue has a mirrored object, he can pull it out and engage. Then the fight proceeds the same as #2, so sure win.
If not, he has to avert or close his eyes and fight, and the basilisk is comparable to the rogue without SA, so it's about 50-50.
Likely win.
4. A Large Fire Elemental in a mystic forge.
First assume it's a hot environment, so the rogue makes a fort save DC15 with a -4 penalty, succeeds on a 16, so 17% failure rate to take 1d4 heat damage and become fatigued.
The elemental has spring attack and reach, so it can run forward 20', hit the rogue, and run 25' away to end 35' away. If the rogue has a wand of longstrider he can match that speed, otherwise he has to charge each turn (and can't do that if he's fatigued) or use a bow.
Luckily the rogue has good dex, and his to-hit with a longbow is +8, so he hits 50-55% of the time against the elemental, or more if he uses Luck. The elemental's to-hit and AC are similar to a large animated object, and he still loses his +5 dex mod by whiffing the rogue, so after a few rounds of Deflection and SA, the rogue should come out on top.
Likely win.
5. A Manticore on the wing above a plain.
In an open plain, they spot each other at about the same time. Rogue pulls out his longbow and activates Reflexive Combat. Manticore starts with spikes. Each spike hits on a 19, success rate 1/100 after a Deflection reroll, and the rogue can deflect 5/turn, probably 4 on the first turn after reflexive combat, so 5 have a 10% hit rate, so average 4 damage from the 24 spikes total. Then it's the rogue's +8 to hit for 15 SA damage with his bow vs the manticore's 15-17 AC and the manticore's +10 to hit for 10 damage on a flyby attack vs the rogue's 27 AC. The rogue can afford 3 sp for SA and 2 sp for Deflection to make sure he gets it every round. Even if the manticore attempts to close for a full-attack, the rogue can retreat and pelt it with the bow.
Likely win.
6. A Phase Spider anywhere. They're tricky creatures like that.
The spider gets the drop on the rogue because it's invisible, but the rogue has uncanny dodge so he uses reflexive combat and deflects the spider's attack. The rogue retreats a bit every turn so that the spider has to use its move action to approach, rather than shift back to the ethereal plane on its turn. Then as the above battles, except the phase spider has lower stats than those enemies.
However, the phase spider also has higher speed, so it can spend a turn getting around the rogue and ambushing it. In this case the rogue has to ready an attack action to hit it once it becomes material, and it'd still get an attack against the rogue, who wouldn't be able to SA. In this case it's the rogue and spider duking it out, and the spider only hits on a 20.
Likely win.
7. A couple of Centaur Archers in a light to medium wood.
Centaurs lose even in pairs. The rogue can hide and SA, plus use a bow anywhere they can to better effect with SA. The only difference from a single one is that the rogue has to allocate an extra sp for deflecting them both, lowering his SA.
Likely win.
8. A Howler/Allip tag team in an abandoned temple to a dark god.
The difficulty here is in the Allip.
rogue will l5 = 1 - 1 Wis = +0 vs DC 16, so 17% failure rate to be hypnotised, but the Howler's attack or Allip's incorporeal touch breaks that effect. So that could be 14 damage and 2.5 Wis drain.
The rogue starts with Reflexive Combat and effectively negates the Allip. But either enemy hitting him could be dangerous, so he saves a Deflection sp for both. Then he moves away from the duo so the howler can't full attack and pulls out a weapon. He can take out the Howler just like the other encounters. The problem is how to deal with the allip. If he has an oil of magic weapon, or just a straight up magic weapon, he can drop it, but he has no inherent abilities that let him deal with incorporeal creatures. With a good intimidate check he might scare it away or diplomacy befriend it, but that's unlikely in the extreme.
I'm not sure how to call this either. Likely loss?
9. A Grimlock assault team (4 members) hidden in a cavern.
Grimlocks hidden stay hidden b/c the rogue can't spot worth a da**. The rogue can't hide from them either. Unlucky for them, getting the jump on the rogue isn't worth much. Even if they all charge in and flank at the same time, the rogue can still use Reflexive Combat and it's pretty much over.
Sure win.
10. A Cleric of Hextor (with his dozen zombies) in a crypt.
I'm not really sure how to adjucate this one, since a cleric would have to be level 24 to command a dozen zombies, but whatever. Assuming the cleric is level 5 and the zombies aren't under his command so much as in his general vicinity, he has definitely already cast Desecrate to buff the zombies so they have +3 to hit and 20 HP apiece.
Other than that, it's hard to pin down what the cleric will do, since clerics have so many options available to them. The rogue can steal the cleric's everything except armor and weapon, but I'm not sure that that'll stop the cleric.
If the cleric functions as a healbot and only uses Inflict X Wounds on his zombies, the rogue will slaughter him, since even with buffs the zombies can't hit the rogue's AC, meaning as a group they deal 2.7 damage per round on average, and the rogue deals 1d6 weapon + 3 dex + 3d6/2 SA ~= 11 damage per round, so he can take 1 down every other or every 3rd round and force them to follow him without geting off an attack because he's using his bow. Likely win.
If the cleric buffs himself and wades into combat (or uses archery), it probably depends on how well each character is optimized. The cleric has excellent buffs to choose from, but it'll be difficult for him to hit the rogue's AC with Reflexive Combat and Deflection (not to mention the rogue has the edge on him if this is a Tome game), and as long as the rogue can avoid the zombies, he'll have little trouble from them. However, he'll also have trouble hitting the cleric's AC, and so may have to use more Luck and less SA. As long as he keeps up the rerolls though, and doesn't let the cleric use a bunch of situational modifiers against him, he'll probably come out on top. The question is if he can do that. Toss up.
Possible cleric's to-hit: 3 class + 4 str (with Bull's Str) + 1 Bless + 1 Magic Weapon + 1 Weapon Focus (War Domain) + 2 flanking with undead + 4 against a tripped rogue = +16 vs AC 27, hit on a 11, 50% hit rate, 2 Deflections give about 12.5% hit rate.
If the cleric stands behind a Sanctuary and spams Fort/Will-based BFC at the rogue like Blindness, Hold Person, and Command, it'd be a very difficult battle for the rogue, because he'd have to use most of his sp on Luck for saves, and one or two failed saves could cost him the battle. However, if the rogue can survive all the SoL's, eg by saving all his sp for Luck rerolls on saves every turn, and outlast the cleric's spell list while kiting the zombies, he can win. The question is if he can do that. If he has a wand of dispel magic, he should be ok just counterspelling for awhile. Likely loss, I think.
I'm not sure how to call this one, but since I have one of each, I'll just say Toss Up.
Level 5 results: 2 likely losses, 1 toss up, 6 likely wins, 1 sure win = -1*2 + 0*1 + 1*6 + 2*1 = 6/10. That's definitely a change from 0, which would be all toss-ups, so I think the rogue is probably on the upper end of high balance category or the lower end of the very-high balance category. I don't think the assumed items include anything out of the ordinary for this level, but if you disagree let me know.
Level 10 test:
Assumed items: Previous, plus about 2000gp liquid assets, masterwork bow, masterwork Finesse weapon, access to custom magic items (i.e. items that should exist but aren't listed in the core rules)
Hypothetical stats: 10/17/14/13/8/12, HP 10d6+20 = 55
Fort 2 con + 3 class = +5
Ref 3 dex + 13 balance ranks + 2 Tumble synergy + 2 masterwork tool = +20
Will = Ref = +20
AC (with Reflexive Combat) avg 10.5 + 20 Ref = 30.5
1. A hallway filled with magical runes.
If he has a deciphered scroll of teleport, he can probably use that to get through the hall. A wand of summon monster 1 could set off the no-reset runes too. Barring that, he can use his Underground Contacts (Contact Other Plane) to find out exacly what the hallway contains, leave, buy or steal the appropriate wand (eg. Dimension Door) and come back and bypass the hall. Likely Win.
2. A Fire Giant on an active volcano, who hides under lava if kited.
The rogue uses Mirage Arcana to move the apparant lava to a place it isn't, then kites the heck out of the Fire Giant. If the giant saves, he repeats the process. Sure Win.
3. A Young Blue Dragon, soaring over a seemingly endless expanse of sand dunes.
Fatigued from heat or not, the rogue laughs at the dragon's breath weapon and kites him, with Reflexive Combat to make sure the dragon can't hit him. Likely win.
4. A Bebilith hidden on the ceiling of a cave in the abyss.
First off, Rogue uses UC(CoP) to find out he'll face a Bebelith today, and buys 1-2 oils of align weapon. And maybe some extra-strength Raid.
The rogue finds the Bebelith with Locate Creature, and prebuffs with align weapon on a bow and RC. He finds cover, hides (13 ranks + 3 dex + 2 masterwork tool = +18, with 5~10 Luck rerolls to get a high roll), then kites the Bebelith with 5d6 SA, teleporting with Don't Blink or readied actions as necessary to keep away from its superior speed and denying it the ability to close to melee and grapple. Likely win.
5. A Vrock in a demonic forest.
Epic anime battle with the two combatants teleporting through a forest, exchanging blows and creating flashes of light, etc., etc.
I don't know what a demonic forest does, but I imagine it attempts to trip people and eat them, so I'll factor in a trip attempt as if by a Treant every round (melee +12 to hit, str check +17 vs rogue's dex check +3). The melee touch attacks don't hit the rogue's AC, so it only works 1/20 turns.
Same prebuffs as with the Bebelith plus oiling the Finesse weapon, but the rogue is more likely to fail a hide against the vrock, unless he has put effort into his hide skill, so probably doesn't get a surprise round. The Vrock pre-buffs with Heroism and Mirror Image (6-7 images), then can open with Telekinesis-throwing a bunch of weapons at +13 to hit for ~144 damage altogether (3x6d6 gargantuan greatswords, 3x4d6 huge greatswords, 6x1d6 medium javelins), but that doesn't beat the rogue's AC so it deals 7 damage on average (with a large standard deviation).
Rogue counterattacks with 5 sp on SA, using the rest on Deflection/Don't Blink.
rogue to-hit +10 class + 3 dex + 1 masterwork/magic bow = +14/+9 vs Vrock's 20 AC without dex, hit rate 75%, or 93% with 1 Luck reroll for the first attack, 50% with the second.
(1d8 bow + 5d6 SA) / 6 mirror images * 0.75 = 2.75 avg damage
+ (1d8 bow + 5d6 SA) / 6 mirror images * 0.5 = 1.83 avg damage
Vrock closes and releases spores pre-attack for 4.5 damage + 25 damage over the next 10 rounds. Then whiffs and rogue teleports away and counterattacks with SA.
Vrock screeches, rogue saves on a 17, with 5 Luck that gives 26% fail rate. If successful, Vrock closes and sets up a full-attack the next round
with still negligible chance vs the rogue's 32 AC because of Luck, for average 2.35 damage. The rogue is unstunned and can trade blows this way so pulls out his Finesse weapon and counterattacks.
Otherwise rogue counterattack without SA. Vrock summons about 10 dretches who start layering Stinking Clouds on the rogue, who saves on an 8, so 65% of the time, and starts losing within a few rounds. Likely loss.
On the other hand, if the rogue had a wand of greater invisibility to start with, he could UMD it to snipe the Vrock with no problem, Likely Win.
It comes down to how well CoP works, and in the case of a Luck-using rogue, it's very reliable. Since I have 1 of each, Toss Up.
6. A tag team of Mind Flayers in a cramped underground structure.
I don't know Mind Flayers, so I have to skip this.
7. An Evil Necromancer in a graveyard with extensive catacombs.
The necromancer can use nondetection if he's a wizard, but the Rogue finds him eventually with repeated attempts at UC(Locate Person).
Presumably the necromancer has earth-based resources, so let's say he has a purple worm skeleton (for burrowing) and a blue dragon skeleton (for flight and maybe burrowing). And some zombies.
As with the L5 cleric, it's tough to tell what the necromancer will do. Will-based BFC will be easier, but Fort-based harder, like Baleful Polymorph. Clerics can go full Codzilla with True Seeing, and wizards can trap a rogue in catacombs with Wall of Stone, two large-gargantaun skeletons, and Cloudkill.
So the rogue's first action is to say F-that. He finds out he'll face a necromancer today with CoP, and prepares accordingly.
In the rogue's favor are:
-very high touch AC from RC (though within range of the two big skeletons)
-very good Ref and Will saves
-DPS
-minor, consistent teleportation
-illusions against a wizard, not cleric
-petty theft (eg of a spell-component pouch or holy symbol)
-more effective divinations than his opponent
-inability to be divined by his opponent (the wizard/cleric can find out information about him, but not his location)
If he has optimized hiding, he can use his Out Of Sight ability to sneak up on the wizard and hopefully kill him. That assumes he can bypass the wizard's defenses. An alarm spell could foil the whole thing, as could displacement, especially persistent displacement, at which point cue the skeletons and cloudkilling.
I do see a way to win this though. The rogue starts with a potion of detect magic, and a scroll/wand of dimensional anchor. Then he aims for any illusions and takes them out, replacing them with his own Mirage Arcanas (they're free, so may as well, even if it's a cleric necro). Then hits the wizard with dimensional anchor so he can't teleport away. Then goes face-to-face with sneak attack on one hand and Luck/Deflection rerolls on the other. The odds are still against the rogue, but it's doable. And the cleric is probably easier than the wizard.
Specific builds may have a better time with this, but then specific wizard/cleric builds might make it harder. So overall I'll call this likely loss.
8. 6 Trolls in a small cave behind a waterfall.
As above, the rogue uses CoP to find out about the trolls, then goes to the market.
63 avg hp per troll * 6 trolls = 378 HP / 3.5 dmg per acid vial = 108 vials * 10 gp = 1080 gp.
Buy 150 acid vials just to be safe. Find An Opening means the rogue only misses on a 1 (or a 5 with his secondary attack, but 2 luck rerolls fix that, in case his build has Quick Draw).
Rogue uses Reflexive Combat and the trolls can't touch him. Sure win.
9. 12 Shadows in an inn after the lights have been doused for the night.
Rogue learns about shadows with CoP, buys the wand/oil of Magic Weapon (or a few buckets of holy water), and uses Mirage Arcana to make several hiding spaces for himself that Shadows wouldn't get will saves against, then waits. The shadows come in and the rogue turns on the lights, which is also a pre-arranged signal for everyone else to GTFO, activates Reflexive Combat, and uses Magic Weapon. He kites them or chucks holy water at them, taking out 1 per 2 turns on average (4 with holy water), until they find him and start dealing >0.175 str damage per turn per shadow (so >2 if there's 12 left, >1 if there's 6, etc).
If he has blind-fight or can deal 19 damage per attack instead of 13, he can dispatch the creatures faster. If they move through his reach to make attacks on him, he can make AoOs to finish them faster as well.
If the creatures find him before he's taken out about 5 of them, they'll probably force him to flee. Otherwise he'll probably win.
I'll call this a Toss Up.
Level 10 results: 1 likely losses, 2 toss ups, 3 likely wins, 2 sure wins = -1*2 + 0*2 + 1*3 + 2*2 = 5/9. About the same as Level 5. I still don't think the assumed items include anything out of the ordinary for this level, nor were any of the bought items, but if you disagree let me know.
Level 15 test:
Assumed items: Previous, plus Cloak of Resistance +2**, potion of cat's grace (drunk precombat)**, ring of balancing***, access to any number of lesser magic items/potions/scrolls up to level 3, or an extra 15,000gp liquid assets
Hypothetical stats: 10/22/14/13/8/12, HP 15d6+30 = 82
Fort 2 con + 5 class + 2 Resistance = +9
Ref 6 dex + 18 balance ranks + 2 Tumble synergy + 2 masterwork tool + 2 Resistance + 5 ring = +35
Will = Ref = +35
AC (with Reflexive Combat) avg 10.5 + 35 Ref = 45
To-hit +22/+17/+17
Damage (melee) 1d6 + 8d6 SA + 6 dex, avg 37.5 (or 23.5 against immune-to-SA creatures)
Disguise Surroundings DC 10 + 7 level + 1 Cha = 18
1. A Marut in a metropolis.
To start with, the rogue can now CoP the Marut and use Discern Location to find out exactly where he is. He buys an oil of align weapon and applies it to his weapon before the battle starts.
Lets assume the Marut is after the rogue and doesn't go after bystanders unless they interfere. That simplifies things to the rogue saying something like "It's after me, everyone else get more than 960' away! Hey Marut, I totally went Grand Theft Auto on death's carriage!"
Of the Maruts SLA's, the only one that can affect the rogue with >5% chance is Greater Dispel Magic (but he can use it at will, so a Ring of Counterspelling doesn't help much). If he doesn't use it, he'll only hit on a 20. If he does, the rogue's AC could drop as low as 37, allowing the Marut to hit on a 15, 30% hit rate. 2 sp reduces that below 3%. Less if he uses Awesome Blow or Power Attack.
Meanwhile assuming the Marut is denied his dex to AC, the rogue hits on a 11, 50%, 2 sp makes that 87%, for his first attack, and on a 16 for his secondary attacks, 2sp makes that 57%. So spending 6 sp on Luck for his attack rolls, 8 on SA, and saving 6 for Deflection/Luck for saves, the rogue can go toe-to-toe with the Marut and deal about 47 damage per turn, and take about 0 damage per turn with a 2% chance for blindness or deafness. After 4 turns the Marut is dead. Alternatively the rogue can kite the Marut, using Don't Blink to escape full-attacks, and deal about 31 damage per turn, with less than 1% chance of getting blinded or deafened, and kill the Marut in 6 turns.
Likely win.
(now skipping the encounters I don't have access to)
2. A Drow Priestess with an army of ghouls.
Blah blah CoP Discern Location Blah. The ghouls are more helpful than hurtful. The rogue uses Veil to make himself look like any other ghoul, for the purpose of (1) "forcing" the drow to use True Seeing to find him, and (2) confusing the ghouls and hopefully getting them to attack each other, or not at all. He can also use Screen to keep them in one place by hiding the exits, or buy a scroll of Earthquake to stop them if they're on their way to attack a village or something.
I'm assuming the drow priestess has 14 cleric levels. Being a drow doesn't help her much against a rogue, but being a cleric does. She can use Destruction with an assumed DC of 10 + 7 spell level + we'll say 7 wis = 24, which the rogue only succeeds on a 14. 6 sp brings that up to 95%, so the rogue has to reserve 6 sp for that possibility every turn.
Otherwise Sanctuary no longer works for the cleric, but being CoDzilla does. As I said in #1, the rogue can handle a true-seeing monster. But on the other hand, the cleric can do it better than the Marut (like with Holy Aura).
So Toss Up.
3. A warparty of Cloud Giants, in the process of assaulting the party's favorite village.
I'm going to assume "warparty" means "gang" (CR 15 for 4 giants), rather than "family" (CR 16-19) or "band" (CR 18-20). I think the rogue could beat the band because of the cloud giants' poor SLAs and low caster levels, but it'd throw off the results of this test to include it.
Rogue uses CoP to find out about the giants coming toward the village. He buys an oil of GMW +5, and wands of Obscuring Mist and Gust of Wind. He uses Screen to hide the village in the illusion of a hill or otherwise ignorable piece of scenery, and creates an illusion of the village (and any roads leading to it) several miles away. Then when the giants get close, he covers the illusion in Fog Clouds and hides. The giants will see the road leading to the village and since they're familiar with Fog Clouds themselves, they'll know it's there. They presumably use the battle plan of surrounding the illusory village, one in each direction, then dropping obscuring mists or fog clouds to be unseen, and chucking rocks. The fog cloud around the village should help prevent the giants from realizing they aren't destroying anything with their rocks. Otherwise 2/4 of them will recognize the illusion as soon as their first rock passes through it, given a reasonable interpretation of "interaction" with an illusion. He can't SA the giants while they're inside a cloud, so he uses his wand of Gust of Wind to blow away a cloud, then kite the giant. The giants can't hit his AC, but his secondary attacks hit on a 2 when the giants are denied Dex to AC, so 1 sp each makes that 99% hit rate, so spending 3 sp per full attack he deals an average 109 damage per turn and drops the giant in 2 (or more if it stalls and uses fog cloud again). The other giants may see and come to help, and if each of them uses obscuring mist while another fights, it negates the rogue's SA for several turns, but ultimately the rogue wins out with or without SA.
On the other hand, if the giants make their will saves against the illusion, then 2-3 of the giants can fight the rogue while the others search for the real village. Without a spellcaster they can't dispel the illusion surrounding the village, so the odds are highly against them finding it (essentially they'd have to walk into the illusion to see it). Meanwhile the rogue can dispatch the giants, follow the remaining ones and take them out.
Likely win.
4. A Mature Adult White Dragon, in its cavernous lair on the side of a mountain made entirely of ice, with an extensive series of tunnels it dug to inconvenience creatures that can't burrow or climb icy walls.
Rogue CoPs the dragon, Shadow Walks to the dragon's lair, and uses a wand of Shivering Touch.
Sure Win.
5. A Cornugon in a cave structure with massive, 300 foot caves, who has obscured some of the connecting tunnels with illusions.
Dispel Chaos for +4 AC (total 39) against the rogue and magic circle against good keeps him from approaching. The rogue has 3 tools in overcoming the Cornugon's illusions. 1, every rogue is good at searching extensively by hand, so will interact with any illusions. 2, he has a good will save, so will beat the DC to see through them. 3, he can use Discern Location and/or Locate Creature to find his enemy despite the illusions.
CoP and the rogue gets masterwork silvered ammo for his bow, maybe two or three bows in case one gets sundered, oils of align weapon, and an oil of greater magic weapon +5. He prebuffs before reaching the Cornugon and sets up illusions of his own to hide him from the devil and give him SA in the first round. His hit rate is .75/.5/.5 for average 65 damage per round opposed to the devil's hit rate of .1 for average 2 damage per round plus 8% chance of stun for 2.5 rounds. Luck and Deflection tilt those odds in the rogue's favor even more.
Likely Win.
6. A Gelugon and his Iron Golem bodyguard, travelling hellish glaciers in a blizzard.
I'm going to assume blizzard means windstorm and not Hurricane force like the SRD suggests, because that would mean neither of the enemies could make much progress for being knocked down so much, whereas windstorm only means they'd be checked some of the time. Hurricane-force winds would make it much harder for the rogue to fight these two, but also almost impossible for the iron golem to go anywhere.
Like the Ice Devil, the rogue is in his element due to spot checks being impossible. He CoPs, then gets an adamantine finesse weapon, oils of align weapon and magic weapon +5, a single potion each of bear's endurance, enlarge person and endure elements, and a bunch of pots of of CSW. Then he finds the two with Locate Creature/Discern Location. Then he uses Step Into Darkness and Don't Blink to avoid being checked in movement from the blizzard or the Ice Wall spell.
Ice Devil's effective spells include Persistent Image, Ice Storm and Unholy Aura, and its summon ability can help it if it works to summon another Ice Devil. The Iron Golem's breath weapon can also poison 50% of the time.
Unholy Aura is a tricky beast for the rogue, becuase he succeeds the Fort save vs Str damage on a 13, so has a 40% success rate.
Oils and pots give the rogue AC 43 and To-hit +25/+20/+20, meaning his hit rate against the iron golem is .75/.5/.5 for average 42 damage per round (killing it in 3 rounds) vs the golem hitting him on a 20 for average 2 damage per round. And his hit rate against the Gelugon is .7/.45/.45 (after denying dex and accounting for Unholy Aura) for average 63 damage per turn, assuming Unholy Aura doesn't drain any STR (more on that in a second) vs the Gelugon hitting him on a 20 for 2 damage and <5% chance of Slow.
Now what do those 2 do to him?
IG's breath weapon has 35% chance to deal 2.5 Con damage/use, plus 7.5 a minute later. That can kill the rogue outright, so he has to save at least 3 sp to drop that down to 5% poison rate. By going after the golem first, the rogue can make sure he only gets off 1 breath weapon.
ID can hide in a Persistent Image of a hill and spam Ice Storm. Locate Creature can tell the rogue where the ID is, if it's still active. There's almost nothing he can do against the Ice Storm though, which deals 17 damage per round and will drop the rogue in 6 rounds. 1 round setup casting persistent image means the rogue has 7 rounds to kill the Iron Golem and then find and kill the Gelugon, less if poisoned. But whenever he gets low on hp, the rogue can Step Into Darkness to avoid the Ice Storm and heal back to full with the CSW pots. From the Plane of Shadow he can approach then shift back to start/continue attacking. So IS isn't an effective tactic either, and the Gelugon is stuck with his weapons or ineffective SLAs to defeat the rogue.
Except for Unholy Aura. Rogue saves on an 11, meaning 50% chance to fail _per attack_. 3 sp makes that 6.25%, meaning 9 sp per round. The rogue can do that and SA with 3 sp leftover, and kill the Gelugon in 4 attacks. However, it might be better to play the spring-attacking game with Don't Blink and sink most of his sp into Luck to make absolutely sure Unholy Aura doesn't drain his strength. On the good side, he doesn't really need strength to deal a lot of damage, so he can take the ~2 strength drains before being paralyzed without losing his 4-attack kill.
Likely win.
7. A Rube Goldberg series of contingent weirds triggered to a set of symbols of pain surrounding the artifact.
So we have a bunch of traps around a macguffin. That's the rogue's shtick. DC30 search is easy peasy at this level. Even without Skill Mastery, a luck reroll or 2 ensures the rogue finds and disables the traps, then takes the artifact. A Ingraining Step Into Darkness ensures he won't get caught by the traps either.
And that's assuming the traps have a trigger of "if anyone gets within x ft." If it's Indiana Jones-style, where you have to actually take the artifact, the rogue can just Step Into Darkness with it.
Sure win.
(including one last easy-to-calculate encounter)
8. A forest made out of lava and infested with hostile fire-element dire badgers.
I assume this is a "bypass" challenge rather than a "kill everything" challenge, in which case a potion of fire resistance and the Step Into Darkness make this a sure win. Otherwise, well, the rogue has unhittable AC and some sp for Deflection ensure a negligible chance of any badgers ever dealing damage, whereas the rogue can 1-shot multiple per turn, so it's still a sure win.
Level 15 results: 1 toss up, 4 likely wins, 3 sure wins = 0*1 + 1*4 + 2*3 = 10/8. Very High Balance for sure at this point, but restricted compared to a spontaneous caster, much like a sorcerer, and item-dependant like any other mundane. I still don't think the assumed items include anything out of the ordinary for this level, nor were any of the bought items, but if you disagree let me know.
**or an item filling the same function
***this is totally unnecessary if the others are Tome magic items
Now for Tarkus's comments:
Savvy Pool: Seems reasonable, except I feel like it gives too much SP at low levels. 1/level would negatively affect the SGT at level 15 since enemies get big bonuses around that level, and I'd like the rogue to have its trick be good, since it doesn't have many uses right now. Is 2/level increase reasonable after level 10? Changed to that.
Underground Contacts: Changed, hopefully it's clearer now.
Reflexive Combat: Yeah, I like the idea that you can tell a strong rogue by the way he doesn't wear armor. Flat-footed should take away Dex, except the rogue gains Uncanny Dodge at the same level, so that never comes up. Touch should = the rolled AC, since it amounts to dodging attacks. I'd be grateful for comments on the mechanical balance of that though. Changed.
Dextrous Will: As the SGT shows, I actually intended for them to be the same. I didn't think it would be broken. Changed.
Disguise Surroundings: Same change as with UC. I actually prefer the "true seeing doesn't pierce" interpretation as I stated above, especially since it gives rogues a way to fight Incantatrixes and Clerics with Persistent True Seeing, so I'm going with that. Changed.
Gone Underground: I hadn't thought about surpressing it actually, but I can imagine a situation where you'd want to, so ok. Changed it so that's the same as SR.
Others: Insight comes back with a restricted skill list and uses! Let me know if I've missed anything, or if Luck should be gone now.
While adding an ability for AoEs sounds cool, what problem does it solve that isn't covered by a high reflex save, Deflection, and Ingrain Muscle Memory? In any case, it sounds interesting, so I've added it as a special ability.
Last edited by Miryafa on Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:12 am, edited 4 times in total.
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TarkisFlux
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Post by TarkisFlux » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:28 am

This is going to sort of ramble a bit because I'm tired and don't feel like splitting things out, so sorry for the lack of bullet points and headers in advance.
3-5 points is not too many SP at low levels, if the costs are sorted properly. Being able to spend 2 on full progression SA (or full bonus insight now that that's a thing again) and having a couple left for rerolls is a thing that happens at low levels in either setup. The equivalent of 3 SP in the int setup happens at level 2 already, so the only difference is that you probably have a reroll at 1 with your SA, unless you prioritized Int or something. it's really not a big deal.
At wish economy levels that 3-5 goes to 11-13 (because wish economy attribute boosts), and leaves you with 9 or so rerolls after buying your SA each round. It's a bit of a drop at higher levels, since in your revised progression, you have 20 SP at 15, need to spend 7 to get your SA, and then have 13 left over for whatever.
But whether the smaller number is more appropriate depends on your design goals I guess. In your drow cleric bit you took a weak save, the only real weakness left on this rogue, and turned it into an extremely likely save with 6 of those rolls. You can reliably hold off 2 attacks on your weak save per round with those 13 rerolls, and you're very likely to have a couple left over just in case something else fails you. If you're balancing against the incantatrix, then that's probably fine. No one should balance against that though, because it's at the top end of the game and there's no room to grow past it.
The dextrous will concern was along those lines. When your saves grow like skills, you basically don't fail those saves at higher levels. Since you already don't fail one save and have a solid reg/touch/flat AC (and a few rerolls to fix anything that gets through), tossing on another win save seemed silly. Now it's merely "really good" (half level + 2 for good save, +3 for reflexes + dex (which you boost)) and has a few static modifiers over most casting stats. If your balancing against the incantatrix though, may as well revert it to "don't fail".
I think insight is ok, but I haven't really thought about it deeply. I haven't checked to see if there are any edge case uses that need the language adjusted. I'm kind of sad that listen and spot aren't in there though, because seeing invisible people is a thing that could otherwise happen, but I don't know how to word that to avoid dropping a bunch into spot to find people sneaking at you so meh. The mechanic is fiddly though, like the rest of the SP mechanics. In case it wasn't clear by now, I'm not a fan of the implementation of it (or SA, or darkstalker). I'll stop beating that horse now.
The immediate action AoE move solves the problem of what you do when you want to save your 1 muscle memory for something else, or what you've used it and haven't set something else up. It solves the problem of not having anything to do with your swift or immediate actions that aren't gear based. It solves the problem of you not wanting to reroll forever until you pass the save, and instead just leave the AoE. So, not very big problems to solve really, it just seemed in line with the other shifty / teleporty things you wanted to do. You set it up as a standard action though, which is significantly more troublesome. Moving out of AoE / to threaten a guy is one thing; shooting someone in the face when they start casting / teleporting away off turn / popping off some other LoE breaking effect for the whole party or whatever is a bit different.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
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Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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Miryafa
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Post by Miryafa » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:48 pm

You make really good points. Changes applied, pending comments.
I personally prefer the smooth growth of sp-by-level to the choppy (and slower) growth of setting it equal to an ability modifier, but maybe that isn't so much of a problem for people who play on this board. In that case, I'd rather have the ability be based off Dex than Int and call it "Reaction Points" or something, because I think mundane MAD can go DIAF. Insight has been renamed to Ingenuity to reflect the change, and Out Of Sight becomes Formlessness because it's a better name.
Dextrous Will dropped. Question: are Dextrous Will/Fort reasonable as Special Abilities?
Don't Blink was replaced with Shift, and the rogue waits for teleportation until he gets Step into Darkness.
Also I moved Cover Me to level 7 to be a bit more useful. Edit: and Double Jump to 6.
Last edited by Miryafa on Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TarkisFlux
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Post by TarkisFlux » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:37 pm

The thing that I liked about tying it to an attribute was that it automatically scaled down in number for games that didn't use wish economy attribute boosts. But if you prefer smooth growth you can just do that with less fiddly costs. Something like...
[*]SP: 3 + 1/2 level
[*]Costs: 2SP for 1/2 level SA dice; 2SP for 2(or even 3)*level insight bonus; 2SP for benefit of Darkstalker; 1SP for pretty much everything else
gives you a pool with smooth growth, less fiddly costs, and a lower total possible pool of rerolls. I don't think they actually need more than 9 rerolls in a round after queuing SA and darkstalker (while hiding behind an ally for surprise) at 20, or more than 11 rerolls with a full insight boost at 20, or more than 13 total rerolls if they just want to survive at 20 or whatever. But if you think those numbers are too low or high or whatever then you'd either adjust the pool size or tweak the costs of certain things. Comparing it to the old setup at 20, you could have 10 rerolls with full SA and darkstalker, 20 rerolls with a +30 insight bonus, or just 30 rerolls (which I think a bit nuts since you only need 6 to pass basically anything you're even passingly ok at).
Anyway, the setup you use should be the setup that best hits your design goals with the fewest bugs. I think the smaller pool, fixed cost setup works better for lots of reasons, but that might just be me.
I just saw that you removed the cost for SA in the most recent changes. Not sure that was needed so much as dropping the cost (since you wanted the tradeoff I thought), but it's probably fine.
Dextrous Will/Fort might be ok as special abilities, but they probably need an insight cost. Other special abilities could be paying an insight cost to remove the SA penalty against immune creatures. I'd actually like to see more insight costs at higher levels, since action tradeoffs are interesting to me (but again, that might just be my preference, I don't think it's necessarily better that way).
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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Swok
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Post by Swok » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:01 am

Out of curiosity why was Shadow Walk chosen for the teleport feature? Was it to keep it a utility ability and not an in combat teleportation ability?
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Miryafa
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Post by Miryafa » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:31 pm

> TarkisFlux wrote:[*]SP: 3 + 1/2 level
> [*]Costs: 2SP for 1/2 level SA dice; 2SP for 2(or even 3)*level insight bonus; 2SP for benefit of Darkstalker; 1SP for pretty much everything else
> gives you a pool with smooth growth, less fiddly costs, and a lower total possible pool of rerolls.

It seems like you've run the numbers (and I haven't, really), so I'm happy to go with your version in the interest of balance. Changed.
Also changed SA to cost 2 sp, same reason.
Added Dexterous Will/Fort as Special Abilities and added 4 new abilities at high level to give the rogue more things to spend sp on. I think they need critiquing, especially Hypersavvy, since I might have gone off the rails with that one.

> Swok wrote:Out of curiosity why was Shadow Walk chosen for the teleport feature? Was it to keep it a utility ability and not an in combat teleportation ability?

I looked at teleportation abilities at that level and liked the idea that the rogue hid so well that he actually planeshifted to a world of complete darkness, including the benefits of that.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:38 pm

Just a point of fact. You have something that scores better than a Wizard on the SGT, and your solution was to give it more powerful abilities and not to nerf it.
This makes no sense. I'm not going to bother critiquing anything of yours in the future if your solution to a class that is clearly overpowered on your own testing is to buff it more.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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