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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:54 pm

So fascist is still good?
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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The Adventurer's Almanac
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Post by The Adventurer's Almanac » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:09 pm

Only if you're fascist about game mechanics.
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:33 pm

Unlikely . . most of the games allayall talk about don't interest me in the slightest.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:55 pm

I honestly had no clue Frank left until it was mentioned in this thread. And honestly, good goddamned riddance. There's some real "pot, kettle" bullshit in his departure announcement. I won't lie and say he wasn't one of the draws to this forum, but that was a long goddamned time ago and he was definitely contributing to the tone of discourse here.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:12 pm

Not sure. Tone hasn't improved with his departure, so it's not clear that he was contributing and not just responding.
-This space intentionally left blank
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:06 am

> Prak wrote:I honestly had no clue Frank left until it was mentioned in this thread. And honestly, good goddamned riddance. There's some real "pot, kettle" bullshit in his departure announcement.

I mean, is there really? The last time I remember Frank basically calling someone a rape apologist it was because Tzor was on the defensive re: medically unnecessary transvaginal ultrasounds. I still don't miss Tzor.
bears fall, everyone dies
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phlapjackage
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Post by phlapjackage » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:08 am

> Whipstitch wrote:

> > Prak wrote:I honestly had no clue Frank left until it was mentioned in this thread. And honestly, good goddamned riddance. There's some real "pot, kettle" bullshit in his departure announcement.

> I mean, is there really? The last time I remember Frank basically calling someone a rape apologist it was because Tzor was on the defensive re: medically unnecessary transvaginal ultrasounds. I still don't miss Tzor.

Yes there is, as he whinges about "nuance" while having such posts to his name as "if you didn't vote for Hillary in the last election you're directly responsible for tens of thousands of deaths".
I too didn't realize he'd left until coming to this post, but I'm not surprised he took his ball and went home - he's got a history of doing that, after all. Good riddance.
Koumei: and if I wanted that, I'd take some mescaline and run into the park after watching a documentary about wasps.
PhoneLobster: DM : Mr Monkey doesn't like it. Eldritch : Mr Monkey can do what he is god damn told.
MGuy: The point is to normalize 'my' point of view. How the fuck do you think civil rights occurred? You think things got this way because people sat down and fucking waited for public opinion to change?
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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:54 am

I will miss Frank.
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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erik
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Post by erik » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:27 pm

Same.
F
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:54 pm

It's pointless trying to make the Den a safe haven, because what's been going on in the past few months has been happening to every forum. Even supposedly nonpolitical spaces I frequent like LinkedIn sales circle jerks and electronics hobbyist forums has been experiencing the same dynamic as the Den.
Peoples' politics get revealed, and the relationships we've nurtured through a shared interests become hollow. And trust me, they will ALWAYS get revealed. I can peg most peoples' politics through how they interpret supposedly non-political activities like World of Darkness and Exalted and D&D. Once someone lets it slip that that they think Gruumsh has legitimate grievances or that they think vampires should kill themselves as soon as they turn, there's no turning back.
So why now and not five years ago? Simple, it's because the fucking world is melting down. If you want to do anything more than huddle in the closest with your work laptop and pray that this all goes away, politics are going to intrude onto your world and create enemies out of what you think are friends. Because that's what politics MEANS when the world is melting down.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:27 pm

That's the problem in a nutshell right there - you THINK you know someone's politics because of a single comment of something unrelated and suddenly they're part of the 'enemy'. Everybody has political views that are nuanced and complex - they aren't really represented well by a 2-party system. Likewise, someone that has actively committed a vast fortune to private charitable giving may not see the problem with that system - if needs are being met does it matter that the government isn't doing it? Either way, you may have some people that you disagree with that aren't necessarily 'the enemy'.
Dialogue has not been happening. No attempt to educate or change minds or hearts has been happening.
Things are pretty dire, but not to the point of 'liquidating those who disagree'. And if you're at the point that's where you are personally, maybe you shouldn't post to this board where 'wishing death upon someone' is specifically forbidden.
-This space intentionally left blank
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:38 pm

> deaddmwalking wrote:That's the problem in a nutshell right there - you THINK you know someone's politics because of a single comment of something unrelated and suddenly they're part of the 'enemy'. Everybody has political views that are nuanced and complex - they aren't really represented well by a 2-party system.

Ironically enough, your post saying that you can't get someone's complexity and nuance through single comments is extremely revealing. Even if I didn't already know your politics, I can already rule out several possibilities (assuming you're not trolling) just based on your emphasis of individuality, the importance of discourse, and the whole 'liquidating those who disagree'.
Repeat that dynamic across literally every social dynamic, with additional comments used to rule out possibilities... and, well, heh. You get our current dynamic. And that's what I'm getting at. There's no way to get rid of this shit short of not just disconnecting from social media but retreating from social discourse altogether.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:36 pm

F, the stuff I've read and learned on here has helped me in my career path.
I figure the simplest move is just ban politics discussions, as right now that's the most active kind of discussion instead of talking about current games, past games, game mechanics etc. I don't see game discussion threads moderated anywhere as often so it's a lighter load for the folks running this site.
There's more than a decade's worth of nice content on here that can be organized into reference, a lot of the time I'm searching old threads for discussions on different mechanics.
Same Game Test, steps to designing an RPG and so on
---

> "And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
> -Sarpadian Empires, vol. I

Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:47 pm

Do we need an official ban, or can we as individuals just avoid talking so much about certain topics?
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:54 pm

We just have to be sensible, level-headed and mature ab- hahaha oh fuck

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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violence in the media
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Post by violence in the media » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:05 pm

I don't know that Lago is wrong, at least about the assessment that politics is everywhere right now. My girlfriend finally dropped LinkedIn last night because all the political commentary there was stressing her out.
To the larger point about politics getting revealed and having that overshadow all other hobbies and commonalities, I can't really disagree with that either. If you think or advocate for some horrible thing that I disagree with, I can't really give a fuck how well you paint your Space Marines or what your thoughts on wizard balance are. If your politics are going to lead to harm for people I care about, then your advice on how to run a game is meaningless to me.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:27 pm

> violence in the media wrote:If your politics are going to lead to harm for people I care about, then your advice on how to run a game is meaningless to me.

The world is melting down, we can't go back to the old days where we think we could have solidarity separate from politics. It's gotten to the point where just even attempting to forge such commitments results in a (deserved, IMO) backlash.
We might be able to keep up the fiction for a few more months, but to what end? What exactly is the point of pretending that things are going to be okay, when we know the mask is going to slip sooner or later?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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The Adventurer's Almanac
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Post by The Adventurer's Almanac » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:24 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Once someone lets it slip that that they think Gruumsh has legitimate grievances or that they think vampires should kill themselves as soon as they turn, there's no turning back.

I can get the former, but what's wrong with the latter?
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:48 pm

The point was that someone's politics will seep through the mask, especially if the rest of their existence is politicized.
[*] Should vampires be allowed to exist, so long as they feast on animal blood?
[*] Should vampires be allowed to feed on humans so long as they don't kill them?
[*] Should vampires be allowed to feed on other vampires and monsters opposed to all life like ghouls?
[*] Should vampires be allowed to feed on humans if the earth's governments can guarantee a 'cure' for the vampires in six months? What about five years? Thirty years?
[*] Should vampires be allowed to feed on humans if they're weaponized by the state, i.e. vampire infantrytroops who are paid with blood taken from enemy troops?
So-on. The way someone answers these questions will tell you a lot about their politics, which is why I'm skeptical of the idea that we can have a non-political forum. FrankTrollman was my first exposure to a defense of communism, for instance. I will always be grateful to him for his defense of the Tau against elennsar, because that was a turning point in my political awakening. All of that happened in "In My Humble Opinion" while we were talking about WH40K.
There's a reason why that exchange was considered a sideshow to the more important discussion of the politics of the Imperium of Man: it was the middle Obama years, and our political consensus hadn't started melting down yet.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:17 pm

I think while it is perfectly possible to expansively interpret politics and everything is political, I think a "no politics" rule is substantively followable at least so long as it is being applied to people who have posted here for years and can read this thread.
You can realize political information about people from their gaming posts and just not respond if your response would have to be substantially political. It's a loss but certainly a lot less of one than the forum and it rarely is an issue.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:47 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Peoples' politics get revealed, and the relationships we've nurtured through a shared interests become hollow.

Maybe I'm just a jaded queer kid raised by conservative parents, but.... Sucks. I got no love lost for an asshole with shitty politics and will cut them out of my life like cancer.

> deaddmwalking wrote:Dialogue has not been happening. No attempt to educate or change minds or hearts has been happening.

*looks up my first line*
Yeah, fuck dialogue. The hearts and minds I might need to change are those of people who think I don't deserve to live, so.... not gonna waste my time. Dialogue is for people whose lives aren't threatened by the very existence of the people they "should have an open dialogue with." The cis het white people of the board want to try to change Nazis' minds? Fill your boots, I'll be over here ready to fight for my life against them.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Harshax
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Post by Harshax » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:12 am

All political opinions are stupid in the context of designing make believe.
Idiots.
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Harshax
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Post by Harshax » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:13 am

Make believe opinions and mechanics are what this forum is about, not the other way around.
Get lost!
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:32 am

> Harshax wrote:All political opinions are stupid in the context of designing make believe.
> Idiots.

> Harshax wrote:Make believe opinions and mechanics are what this forum is about, not the other way around.
> Get lost!

How can I put this...
The old world -- a world that separated politics from the quest of enjoyment and fantasy -- is never coming back, Harshax. And not just on TGD, but every other aspect of your existence. Even if I get banned and fbmf hard locks these forums, we can never return to the good ol' days. And we're all just going to have to live with it.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Harshax
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Post by Harshax » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:03 am

You are deeply delusional to suggest the world has changed.
This forum has always been subscribed to by political asshats of all varieties.
What are we about, is the question.
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