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Zherog
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Post by Zherog » Mon May 05, 2008 6:53 pm

> Koumei wrote:Collards: I don't even know what these are, and if I never find out, my life will be better for it. But at any rate, I do eat plenty of vegetables - I'm just surprised to find out that those are in fact providing me with more "meat benefits" than meat, along with their own - from vitamins to antioxidants.

Collards are a green leafy veggie. They're fairly common down south, but you can get them pretty much anywhere. Tasty, in my opinion.
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Bigode
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Post by Bigode » Mon May 05, 2008 6:54 pm

I know burning food to keep prices high has been historically standard practice, but I thought it was done just under uncommon circumstances. Why would a country burn food regularly instead of making less of it in the first place and putting the money elsewhere (even ... weapons, in the U.S.A.'s case)?

> Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.

> Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)

> brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!

> LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon May 05, 2008 7:39 pm

> Why would a country burn food regularly instead of making less of it in the first place and putting the money elsewhere (even ... weapons, in the U.S.A.'s case)?

Really baroque farm subsidy reasons?
Recall that this is a country where we produce so much milk every year that we increase our strategic cheese reserve, use some in arcane industrial processes, and still pour the stuff on the ground (and are using growth hormone to increase milk production even more). This is a country where when I was working as a relief coordinator the US strategic food reserve sent me 100 tonnes of green beans on accident and no one cared. That's seriously 20000 koku of calories from canned beans (not that anyone could actually eat that many kilograms of green beans without killing themselves or the people next to them).
Basically producers get a share of the market and the subsidies based on how much they produce. So none of the producers can cut back or they'll become financially insolvent. And the total production way outstrips demand, so if prices are allowed to normalize the amount that food will sell for will drop so low that the amount being sold won't be enough to sustain the producers financially.
So they have to keep cranking up production to meet the "competition" of the other producers despite the fact that the amount of food we actually make is so much higher than what we could try to eat that it's not even funny. Rationalizing the system is also really hard, since the food producers are making money right now and could very easily see outcomes where they wouldn't.
It's batshit insane. But that's what you get for having capitalism with just barely enough government intervention to keep it from destroying itself tomorrow (as indeed it did in the early 30s).
-Username17
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Mon May 05, 2008 9:28 pm

I believe, though, Frank, that our strategic cheese reserve was finally depleted in the last 10 years as the government price was too low to support small farms which needed more employees per cow than the massive farms.
Which has killed off the remaining local dairies. Most milk drank is now produced in huge factories in the mid-west and shipped by the larger food companies, even if a cheaper local source is available. Which of course hurts competition.
Anyhow, I only note this as the large coops which managed to survive the cutting of local production - for the first time in a hundred years, (for milk specifically) we don't produce enough for everyone.
The local producers that I bought the tastiest (but couldn't always afford) milk products from as a child are all gone now. I feel lucky I can still choose Tillamook cheese (although they're having trouble finding enough people willing to work the farms, and paying to re-tool the old cheeseries they bought out and promised to retain so the other local farmers wouldn't protest them) vs the factory farm cheese and milk shipped across the country.
Kroger's now owns the majority of food chains in the west despite the fact that they have no local suppliers. People who walk to the store don't have a choice to avoid the factory products at such a store.
In the last ten years we lost five independent chains, and with them the capability to sell locally produced foods locally. Vons, Ralphs, Albertson's, Fred Meyer. This isn't even mentioning that we've lost a grocer chain every year since I was born.
It's bad. Badbadbad. And the result? Higher food prices and lower availability of healthy food. Oh, and a huge carbon footprint.
-Crissa
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Tue May 06, 2008 5:06 am

You are conflating our massive beef cattle kill off a while back with a dairy kill off. According to the USDA:

> USDA wrote:Dairy: Milk production will continue upward through most of 2008 lowering prices. However, a weak dollar and the small number of competing suppliers should help U.S. dairy exports and keep demand firm, despite some weakening in domestic demand.

> USDA wrote:Milk production is forecast to rise 2.7 percent in 2008 over 2007, reaching 190.6 billion pounds. The increase comes as cow numbers are forecast to rise just over 1 percent in 2008.

Total US Consumption (all dairy products): 180 billion pounds
We still produce more milk than we drink by a substantial margin.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Tue May 06, 2008 7:34 pm

No, I'm not conflating the dairy kill-off. The increase in efficiency and size of factory farms more than off sets the loss of smaller traditional farms.
And groups such as Tillamook, which don't use factory methods, are having trouble finding employees and farmers to replace retirees.
I consume a pound of cheese. It took five pounds of milk to produce that pound of cheese.
Anyhow, if you go to fsa.usda.gov, you'll find out that the Bush Administration liquidated all but the price support stock of our commodity reserves, and while they have purchasing anticipation for this year, there is no extra reserve in the system.
...Which come to think of it, is especially bad, because bakeries are predicting a shut-down for lack of wheat and sorghum products in three months.
-Crissa
Last edited by Crissa on Wed May 07, 2008 12:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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josephbt
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Post by josephbt » Wed May 07, 2008 3:24 pm

> Maj wrote:Grass-fed beef is also better for you.

Errr, do you have a quote or a link for this one?
I'm currently working in the meat industry and reading a lot of materials. There are no studies that were able to prove that so called "free-range" or "organic" cows(pigs, chickens....) are in any way better. Their meat is chemically the same as farm bred ones, organoleptic(sensoric) studies have shown that humans can't differentiate between "organic" and "non-organic" meat, the consistency and feel of the meat is allmost the same.
As far as "organic" is concerned, people are riding on a hype.
engi
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Calibron
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Post by Calibron » Wed May 07, 2008 7:09 pm

Aside from the Omega 3s the animals get from the grass and not the grain I don't see why grass fed would be healthier, the Omega 3s are important however as they counteract the Omega 6s found in the meat, whether grain or grass fed; seeing as Omega 3s are an anti-inflammatory and Omega 6s are an inflammatory you want a balance.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Wed May 07, 2008 9:52 pm

> Joseph BT wrote:Errr, do you have a quote or a link for this one?

Sure. All links below are work-safe.
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3

> Joseph BT wrote:Their meat is chemically the same as farm bred ones, organoleptic(sensoric) studies have shown that humans can't differentiate between "organic" and "non-organic" meat, the consistency and feel of the meat is allmost the same.

I didn't say organic. I said grass-fed. While at least one review of a number of studies has indicated that in many ways organic plants are better for you (Referential link to 20 MB PDF file), I've yet to see a study on organic versus non-organic meat.

> Caliborn wrote:Aside from the Omega 3s the animals get from the grass and not the grain I don't see why grass fed would be healthier,

Conjugated Linoleic Acid is higher. Also saturated fat is lower.

> Caliborn wrote:the Omega 3s are important however as they counteract the Omega 6s found in the meat, whether grain or grass fed; seeing as Omega 3s are an anti-inflammatory and Omega 6s are an inflammatory you want a balance.

This bears repeating. A lot. Personally, once I got this ratio in check, I went from popping pain killers like they were candy to not requiring a pain killer at all. Which is a damn good thing considering I'm pregnant and am supposed to be suffering from all sorts of pains-in-the-yes.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Wed May 07, 2008 10:01 pm

The benefits of organic foods are biggest as environmental and economic benefits.
Now if a non organic farmer sprays his lettuce with some terrible toxic chemical but waits for the proper withholding period before harvest and washes it well then MAYBE its perfectly safe (not a gamble that is wise to take considering, but still).
But if he is an organic farmer the real health benefits come from not living next door to a guy spraying terrible chemicals.
Oh, and as someone who works in the horticulture industry let me tell you several things about organic vegetables.
1) A lot of so called organic vegetables aren't. They are just (literally) non organic rejects.
2) The poisons widely used in non organic vegetable farming are REALLY REALLY INSANELY BAD. No really. Screw eating tiny traces of them, just having them exist at all is bad.
3) The bigger issue for diet and taste is the tasteless long lasting non beneficial "supermarket" varieties vs the rich healthy tasty old fashioned varieties.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Wed May 07, 2008 11:44 pm

> PhoneLobster wrote:The benefits of organic foods are biggest as environmental and economic benefits.

I know this intellectually, but can I admit that what actually sold me on organic food was the flavor?
Seriously, I use one third to half the amount of stuff like onion and celery because the flavors are so much stronger that if I follow a recipe normally, they overpower the dish. And the fresh tomatoes and basil... <drool> If you're actually buying the fresh picked off the local farm stuff like we have at our food co-op or farmer's market, there's such an enormous difference that it's worth the slightly higher price.

> PhoneLobster wrote:But if he is an organic farmer the real health benefits come from not living next door to a guy spraying terrible chemicals.

True that. And I recently saw an article (though I don't have a link to it off-hand) that demonstrated that modern organic farming techniques actually produce the same amount or more food than the chemical-laden techniques. Which is super cool if only it could catch on.

> PhoneLobster wrote:2) The poisons widely used in non organic vegetable farming are REALLY REALLY INSANELY BAD. No really. Screw eating tiny traces of them, just having them exist at all is bad.

Agreed.

> PhoneLobster wrote:1) A lot of so called organic vegetables aren't. They are just (literally) non organic rejects.

Around here, if you buy locally, a lot of non-organic vegetables actually are - the local farmers just can't afford the name-tag "organic." You can go to the farm and see how they're growing stuff right there (there are lots
of volunteer opportunities to work on the farms for a portion of the harvest, too).

> PhoneLobster wrote:3) The bigger issue for diet and taste is the tasteless long lasting non beneficial "supermarket" varieties vs the rich healthy tasty old fashioned varieties.

If you think about it, they might be cheaper, but if they don't contain as many nutrients, eating them approaches pointless. For your overall health, it's better to pay just a bit more and actually get what your body needs.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Thu May 08, 2008 12:10 am

Yeah, people can't usually tell the difference between one meat and another. It's possible to fool the average taster with blending and special cutting and gassing of meat.
Big whoop.
Just because it may not taste different to the average folk (who apparently can't tell the difference between diet soda and non while trained tasters can tell the difference between corn syrup sources) is pointless. You might as well say the average person doesn't know the difference between cars - they don't. But that doesn't mean there isn't a difference!
The non-hormone milk, for instance. There's no health reason not to drink the hormone induced milk. ...But there are economic reasons.
When people make false assumptions, call them on it. But don't say 'the average person' because that's just stupid.
-Crissa
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ckafrica
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Post by ckafrica » Thu May 08, 2008 3:47 am

ONe of the big reasons grass fed beef is better is they are healthier and therefore are not subjected to as many antibiotics. This is because cows' stomachs are not designed to eat commercial feed.
Cattle fed antibiotics is apprarently contributing to superbugs that effect humans.
http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/Antibioti ... 4mar98.htm
The internet gave a voice to the world thus gave definitive proof that the world is mostly full of idiots.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Thu May 15, 2008 4:15 pm

If they wanted people to eat organic they wouldn't charge more for organic foods.
It's too expensive to eat organic foods, I can't speak for anyone else, but I can't afford to live off organic stuff when regular foods are almost half the price.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Thu May 15, 2008 8:01 pm

Count, who wants you to eat organic foods?
Who makes conventional foods?
What costs are associated with each?
I would appreciate you researching these questions before we continue this conversation. Thank you.
-Crissa
[TGFBS]
Potentially fire-starting reference to another poster deleted.
[/TGFBS]
Last edited by Crissa on Fri May 16, 2008 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Sat May 17, 2008 6:02 pm

What research?
Go to the fucking grocery store and compare prices. Or do you have your maid do your shopping for you?
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Sat May 17, 2008 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Sun May 18, 2008 12:34 am

Don't be an idiot, Count.
At least remember Frank's rant about plastic grocery bags.
-Crissa
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Sun May 18, 2008 2:32 am

Count has a point in that organic foods tend to be more expensive (and wasn't I surprised to find this out the first time I moved house, out of a little country "city" that is so far behind the times that it doesn't know of any alternative to organic and people still say "Oo'ar, oo'ar, guv'na.")
But I doubt anyone (aside from the consumers and the "health people") actually want people buying organic. I mean, the dieticians and doctors aren't the ones putting prices on things, they're just saying "This is good." and as such, the producers figure they can bump the prices up, as do the greengrocers.
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SphereOfFeetMan
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Post by SphereOfFeetMan » Sun May 18, 2008 4:49 am

> Koumei wrote:and as such, the producers figure they can bump the prices up, as do the greengrocers.

...or the fact that growing organic foods is itself more expensive.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Sun May 18, 2008 7:37 am

Factory farming is very efficient per land.
But it shoves off costs - effluent, water treatment, oil, chemical and CO2 emissions - to the rest of us.
Organic farming doesn't do that.
It isn't that Organic food is expensive, it is that conventional foods are cheap.
-Crissa
Think of this: Would fruits be as cheap as they are if they paid the minimum wage to pickers?
What would lettuce cost if they had to pay the same rate for water as cities do?
How much would meat cost if cows had to range or be fed grass fodder?
If pig farmers had to pay for sewage treatment like cities do?
If they had to pay someone to weed their crops?
If they didn't get billions of dollars in subsidies and tax waivers?
Last edited by Crissa on Sun May 18, 2008 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fbmf
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Post by fbmf » Mon May 19, 2008 1:54 am

> Crissa wrote:Don't be an idiot, Count.
> At least remember Frank's rant about plastic grocery bags.
> -Crissa

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Crissa, this is the last time I warn you about this. Cut that shit out NOW.
[/TGFBS]
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Mon May 19, 2008 2:03 am

What about the fucking maid comment, fbmf?
I'm not allowed to point out something which happened on this very board that he's ignoring in favor of insulting me?
-Crissa
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fbmf
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Post by fbmf » Tue May 20, 2008 11:12 am

[TGFBS]
Oh come off it! You are not a victim! Not only do I not see anything insulting about asking if you pay someone to do your shopping, but you know damn well...

> At least remember Frank's rant about plastic grocery bags.

...is not what I'm concerned about. The fact that you started off with...

> Don't be an idiot, Count.

...is what got you into trouble.
[/TGFBS]
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