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shau
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### Baldur's gate optimization

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Post by shau » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:50 am

So I finally bought the enhanced edition of Baldur's gate 1 and 2 and I am replaying them again. Or maybe replaying isn't the right word, because I don't think I ever finished either of them. My usual MO was to do the beginning quests, get bored and do something else for a while, and decide to roll up a new character when I got back.
Part of my problem is that I always amazingly shit at this game. Table top DND was fine, but Baldur's gate for me was mostly watching Minsc get so confused by pathfinding that he just runs around and circles and then accidentally blowing my whole team up with fireballs. Farthest I ever got in BG2 was a halfling fighter/thief solo.
I am currently wandering around BG1 with an an archer PC and Minsc, Jaheira, Khalid, Imoen, and Neera, a new wild mage character. I cleared the mines and things are going surprisingly well, although the giant spiders and assassin Nimbul both TPKed me a few times. Any advice from people who are not shit at this game would be appreciated.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:03 am

Are you planning on carrying your character through the entire game series? You can import your character between BGs and you can create new ones in between -- but the best characters for BG1 and BG2 are different.
Without getting too much into the category of spoilers, though, I'd say that the best character for BG1 that is expected to be used to the end of Throne of Bhaal would be to make a single-classed human fighter 7 that switches over to the Kensai kit in BG2 and thereafter dual-classes to mage. Magic is disgustingly overpowered in Baldur's Gate; once you get to level 5 mages start being able to clear out entire enemy hordes with a couple of spells. Mage ass-kickery slightly starts to go down at the really really high levels (like 25+) because 2E D&D supports that amount of number scaling even less than 3E D&D, but it never stops being OMG KICK ASS.
It's also not a bad idea to go as cleric or cleric/mage. Cleric/mages make great gishes (if you can tolerate the ridiculous interface micromanagement) once you get a decent magical warhammer and some non-armor armor boosters. And you will need a dedicated cleric character. The problem is that the NPC clerics in BG suck anus stat-wise and the only one that doesn't suck anus is probably the third most annoying character in the series. If you can bring decent clerical magic without her you can tell her to go fuck herself and watch your blood pressure go down.
... damn, Bioware just fucking sucks at writing sympathetic or likable love interests, don't they? I guess it's a tradition for them at this point.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:22 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:... damn, Bioware just fucking sucks at writing sympathetic or likable love interests, don't they? I guess it's a tradition for them at this point.

The only games of theirs I can comment on are both called Neverwinter Nights. I'd argue that Aribeth is a pretty decent love interest in Whores of the Underdark (or for evil characters, a decent fuckbuddy), and she's not annoying at either rate. She even goes through her whiny phase in all of one scene as you recruit her. The base NWN1 campaign didn't offer proper love interests that I'm aware, but the human Fighter/Bard isn't annoying. She even has the option for "Just boost my stats and let me be awesome". Mind you I can't remember her name, so she clearly isn't memorable. When people think "NWN1 NPC" they think "that fucking kobold".
NWN2... well, the two characters aren't that bad. They're both kind of bland-ish, and apparently way more people wanted the option to date Neeshka (who, being both a Tiefling and a Rogue, apparently has to go both ways. Sure, whatever) but yeah. They weren't annoying, they just weren't engaging. Okay and Elanee gets a bug up her arse in the early stages about not going and doing HER side quests. In Mask, Safiya is effectively your love interest, based on a soul-based technicality. And she's pretty awesome.
Overall I'd say more hits and misses for their games that are called Neverwinter Nights.
On-topic, I also never got very far, but even starting with a new character in BG2, pure Mage was pretty crazy. Sit Minsc in front of you because enemies were polite about attacking him (thanks, AI!) and then drop those AoE spells like a bauss.
Most suggestions have tended toward Mage (Mage), Cleric (Cleric), Fighter (Kensai) or Paladong (Cavalier). Pretty sure part of that though is they were thinking of late-game BG2 stuff where there are reasons why you might want to murder face in close combat. That said, didn't original BG let Fighter/Mage characters (or whatever) wear full plate and cast spells, with Mages not having "Can't cast in armour", merely lacking "Is able to physically put armour on", a class feature that other classes grant?

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:57 am

Fighter/Mage suffers in the first BG because plate (or any kind of armor) + spells is a no-no. Eventually you get enough in the way of spells and magical blingee that you can get a respectably low AC without any armor -- but that doesn't happen in the first game.
Re: Koumei
I really liked Safiya and all -- hell, I liked all of the Mask of the Betrayer party members, which is an accomplishment thatl makes my jaw drop even to this very day -- but I didn't even realize that she was set up to be a love interest until close to the end of the game.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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shau
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Post by shau » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:03 am

I was thinking of running one character thorough the whole series. Kensai to mage is what I hear is the real end game powerhouse, but I don't feel good enough to actually survive BG 1 with no armor unless I am casting way in the back. Unless I can add the Kensai kit exporting to BG 2. Cleric/mage has sort of the same problem, because you start with three cleric spells and one casting is sleep, but you only get sleep when you don't wear armor
I never did whole dual classing thing before. Sounds like you would have to immediately dual in the staring dungeon of BG2, and then suck for eight levels or so. How much does the really add over a fighter/mage elf, or maybe a fighter/illusionist gnome?
Note: to Koumei: no arcane spells if you are wearing armor, even is you can wear it. Whoops Lago beat me to it. Also, how did you avoid blowing Minsc up too?
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:09 am

It was a very long time ago, back when a game requiring six CDs seemed perfectly reasonable. Quite possibly I just ended up blowing Minsc up half the time but he survived it. Or didn't survive it. I can't remember.
(Yes, this created problems when I first played D&D tabletop. "If you insist on winning Initiative then immediately charging into close combat, I can only take this as permission to include you in the Fireball AoE." Though that was 3E, where nobody gives a shit about being fireballed.)

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:05 am

goddamit Koumei are you ever going to realize that Neverwinter Nights 2 was not a Bioware game
re: OP: When I played BG1 and 2, my main character was a Kensai who dualed longswords. It worked really well for the most part, in that I was able to beat the games with relative ease while never having a super firm grasp of system mastery. But as Lago said, you really want a bunch of mages in your party once you get to BG2. Luckily, that's not that hard to accomplish.
And as Koumei said, Cavalier is a good option assuming you have people around who can shore up your weaknesses. With a certain sword you find at some point in BG2, it probably verges on OP.
Last edited by Blicero on Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:11 am

> Blicero wrote:goddamit Koumei are you ever going to realize that Neverwinter Nights 2 was not a Bioware game

No I am not. Because it's called Neverwinter Nights, and has the usual hallmarks of a Bioware D&D game (deviations from the system, buggy as hell, annoying puzzle chunks that are just there to make the game take longer, an overall acceptable storyline). It even mostly has the same deviations from the system as the first game. So remembering that they're by completely different groups isn't really on the agenda.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:05 am

> Koumei wrote:

> > Blicero wrote:goddamit Koumei are you ever going to realize that Neverwinter Nights 2 was not a Bioware game

> No I am not. Because it's called Neverwinter Nights, and has the usual hallmarks of a Bioware D&D game (deviations from the system, buggy as hell, annoying puzzle chunks that are just there to make the game take longer, an overall acceptable storyline). It even mostly has the same deviations from the system as the first game. So remembering that they're by completely different groups isn't really on the agenda.

If you've never played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and Icewind Dale 1 and 2, and you have played Neverwinter Nights 2 (and maybe you have played 1, that isn't clear) By what possible right do you get to define the hallmarks of a fucking bioware D&D game?

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:45 am

If you want to cast and melee without fucking around with dual classing and experience charts I'd highly recommend a Cleric/Ranger multiclass. You get heavy armor, decent hit points and thaco plus for whatever reason you're allowed to cast spells normally restricted to druids in your cleric slots, which is pretty damn boss--just having Iron Skins alone makes you a superior tank to a cleric build in the long run. I suppose the biggest drawback would be that you're limited to cleric weapons, but that's not really a big deal in the BG series, since there's plenty of good ones to be had.
bears fall, everyone dies
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:49 am

> Kaelik wrote: If you've never played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and Icewind Dale 1 and 2, and you have played Neverwinter Nights 2 (and maybe you have played 1, that isn't clear) By what possible right do you get to define the hallmarks of a fucking bioware D&D game?

Yes, I've played the shit out of NWN1 and both expansions. And I've been spoken at about the NPCs in KotoR, and although I haven't played much of BG 1&2, I have played bits of them at all. Enough to form opinions on a bunch of characters, even if you need to append a footnote of "subject to change pending any events that happen in the story".
But ultimately, NWN2 is mechanically very similar to NWN1, and playing them feels very similar, so while I don't claim I get to define the hallmarks, the fact is I'm not going to remember they're made by different companies, no matter how much of an asshole you want to be about it.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:56 am

> Koumei wrote:

> > Kaelik wrote: If you've never played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, and Icewind Dale 1 and 2, and you have played Neverwinter Nights 2 (and maybe you have played 1, that isn't clear) By what possible right do you get to define the hallmarks of a fucking bioware D&D game?

> Yes, I've played the shit out of NWN1 and both expansions. And I've been spoken at about the NPCs in KotoR, and although I haven't played much of BG 1&2, I have played bits of them at all. Enough to form opinions on a bunch of characters, even if you need to append a footnote of "subject to change pending any events that happen in the story".
> But ultimately, NWN2 is mechanically very similar to NWN1, and playing them feels very similar, so while I don't claim I get to define the hallmarks, the fact is I'm not going to remember they're made by different companies, no matter how much of an asshole you want to be about it.

Do you get that Bilcero and I are different people?

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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K
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Post by K » Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:59 am

I beat both BG1 and BG2 with a single fighter/mage/thief and a mage/thief respectively. Stealth is pretty powerful on a single character, and backstab is amazing with giant Strength.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:59 pm

And you can easily kill dragons by setting up a massive field of bear traps around them while they watch placidly, waiting for you to start the fight.
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Reynard
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Post by Reynard » Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:01 pm

shau:
> Any advice from people who are not shit at this game would be appreciated.
Well, I made it through the BG1, BG2 and ToB. So that should count for something.
1) I would change the size of the party. I prefer having smaller parties (PC+3): easier to (micro)manage and they level-up faster. You can get more companions later, when you hit XP cap (or you can remove cap).
2) I don't see a cleric. Jaheera is multi-class AFAIK and does not count as a proper cleric. It may work out if PC is cleric or cleric/something. Personally, I prefer Viconia (drow), but she doesn't work for all parties.
Lago PARANOIA:
> any kind of armor + spells is a no-no
The was Elven Chainmail, IIRC. You could get it early in BG2, if you killed the leader of Shadow Thieves.
Blicero:
> a certain sword you find at some point in BG2
This brings back memories of how I accidentally duplicated (dropped on the ground, while leaving area) freshly-looted Celestial Fury while frantically running away from enemy party (they were much stronger than I anticipated).
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:47 pm

> K wrote:I beat both BG1 and BG2 with a single fighter/mage/thief and a mage/thief respectively. Stealth is pretty powerful on a single character, and backstab is amazing with giant Strength.

This is another reason I like the ranger/cleric build I mentioned earlier. You have stealth as long as you wear no heavier than leather, and while you lack backstabs you can scout ahead and retreat somewhere safe to buff up and summon an elemental.
bears fall, everyone dies
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shau
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Post by shau » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:35 pm

I did a lot of stealth soloing before, but I always lost interest. I am hoping the party system ill keep me interested.
I am currently in the Cloakwood mines with Illusionist/fighter, Kivan, Coran, Minsc, Jahiera, and Imoen. Kivan's been the anchor of the group so far with the majority of the kills despite joining late, though I suspect Coran will slowly catch up. Minsc is kinda a disappointment. I gave him good armor and the gloves of dexterity to make him an archer/tank, but his is not killing as much as the other two, and barely surpassed Khalid when he was in the group. Jahiera has a very respectable armor class with the ankheg armor and a shield, though she is not doing much offensively with her sling. I am finding that she has enough heals when combined with my high rep main character, although I guess I could put Yeslick or Branwen in for Minsc. Imoen's currently a mage 3, thief 4 and mostly relies on wands. I am hoping I don't have to exit the mines and find something to grind on to get her detect traps ability back. My gnome is doing pretty well, even though he is basically just a mage who is competent with a composite long bow. I am kinda missing necromancy though, and I did manage die to a four measly kobolds when they focused fired him.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:20 am

Minsc is good mostly because he doesn't really need the gauntlets of ogre power to wreck face in melee or be a quality pack mule for a party that otherwise has low strength. If you're using a shit ton of archers to finish people off instead--and archery is rather stupidly good in BG--then there's not much point in choosing him over other people. His advantages begin and end with brute strength, his alignment and berserk.
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RufusCorvus
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Post by RufusCorvus » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:47 am

> shau wrote: I am currently in the Cloakwood mines with Illusionist/fighter, Kivan, Coran, Minsc, Jahiera, and Imoen. Kivan's been the anchor of the group so far with the majority of the kills despite joining late, though I suspect Coran will slowly catch up. Minsc is kinda a disappointment. I gave him good armor and the gloves of dexterity to make him an archer/tank, but his is not killing as much as the other two, and barely surpassed Khalid when he was in the group.

Like above, Minsc's usefulness comes from his high strength. While he can be turned into an archer, it's not playing to his strength (pun intended).
As a side-note, Khalid can be turned into a formidable team member since he's one of the only NPCs (possibly THE only; I haven't played in years) that can get five stars in a weapon style.

> Jahiera has a very respectable armor class with the ankheg armor and a shield, though she is not doing much offensively with her sling. I am finding that she has enough heals when combined with my high rep main character, although I guess I could put Yeslick or Branwen in for Minsc.

Yeslick and Branwen are both solid clerics, especially if you've gotten your hands on the golden warhammer. If you aren't interested in putting Minsc on the front line, I suggest picking either of them.

> Imoen's currently a mage 3, thief 4 and mostly relies on wands. I am hoping I don't have to exit the mines and find something to grind on to get her detect traps ability back.

From what I remember, you can rest in the barracks section of Cloakwood and fight infinitely respawning Iron Throne soldiers. A couple of rounds of them plus the boss should be enough to level her up.

> My gnome is doing pretty well, even though he is basically just a mage who is competent with a composite long bow. I am kinda missing necromancy though, and I did manage die to a four measly kobolds when they focused fired him.

Fighter/mages are one of the best class options in the game and Illusionist is one of the best specializations. I know you say you miss necromancy, but you aren't missing out on much. The first must-have necromancy spell is Skull Trap at level 3, which Imoen can cover. But Illusion has at least one good spell almost every level.
Necromancy has a few other stand-outs, but other than Animate Dead, they're all in BG2.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:30 am

There's two other pure fighters, actually. One has decent dexterity and strength but no Con bonus while the other is a dwarf who's rocking 16 dex and 20 con, which rather handily makes him the best recruitable tank.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RufusCorvus
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Post by RufusCorvus » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:38 am

> Whipstitch wrote:There's two other pure fighters, actually. One has decent dexterity and strength but no Con bonus while the other is a dwarf who's rocking 16 dex and 20 con, which rather handily makes him the best recruitable tank.

Oh, right. Shar-Teel and Kagain. I've never used Shar-Teel. I just plain forgot about Kagain.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:42 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote: ... damn, Bioware just fucking sucks at writing sympathetic or likable love interests, don't they? I guess it's a tradition for them at this point.

Yes.
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K
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Post by K » Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:28 am

> OgreBattle wrote:

> > Lago PARANOIA wrote: ... damn, Bioware just fucking sucks at writing sympathetic or likable love interests, don't they? I guess it's a tradition for them at this point.

> Yes.

DnD games just don't do romances well.
That being said, when the Neverwinter games started to give out power for nookie, the romantic options became a lot more palatable.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:57 am

Didn't Baldur's Gate have a bug where if you dual-classed from ranger to cleric you permanently got all of the druid spells with your cleric spell slots?

> RufusCorvus wrote:As a side-note, Khalid can be turned into a formidable team member since he's one of the only NPCs (possibly THE only; I haven't played in years) that can get five stars in a weapon style.

Argh, don't remind me. Khalid, why?! WHY?! Jaheira is a fucking slimeball and is proof positive that Bioware can't write any female love interest without turning them into a shrieking girly-girl and/or a fulminating asshole.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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shau
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Post by shau » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:34 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Didn't Baldur's Gate have a bug where if you dual-classed from ranger to cleric you permanently got all of the druid spells with your cleric spell slots?

Yup, that still there.
Necromancy has horror at second level, which is an AOE save or lose that does not have any friendly fire problems. It's probably my favorite second level spell. Of course, you can also buy wands of it.
Currently, in the catacombs under Candlekeep. Taking a break because I am tired of tediously searching for traps.
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