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## 3.5 D&D without tons of items

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RobbyPants
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### 3.5 D&D without tons of items

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Post by RobbyPants » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:35 am

So, is it even possible to have a 3.5 D&D game without craptons of items without fucking the whole thing all up?
I'm not talking about running a game with low magic, and I certainly don't want to fuck the RNG up, but what would it take? It seems that if you created a table of bonuses based on level, similar to VoP, you could keep PCs on the RNG without resorting to plus items, although this approach is certainly less flexible than letting them get items and allocate the plusses where they want. Still, if this part is doable, it seems you could have the rest of the items be more flavorful, fun items that give horizontal options rather than vertical power. You still have to be careful about charged items and things like metamagic rods, which still represent vertical power despite not being "plus" items.
Is it possible to make magical items "priceless"? I know you can pull that off in Tome with items over 15K via the Wish economy, but is there a way to do it other than that (When I say priceless, I don't mean that it can't be traded for wealth, but rather than that it's seldom traded for flat out wealth outside of things like auctions)? It seems that so long as PCs can create items, they will never truly be priceless unless they cost some resource that is extremely scarce or otherwise priceless in and of itself. Any ideas?
As many DMs as there are out there that want to run low magic games, I think it'd be nice to have a clear cut way to do that without fucking up the entire game.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Thu Dec 02, 2010 12:46 am

If you want 'priceless' magic items, use things like folding boats, tree tokens, and instant fortresses. The closest you should get to current 'power items' are carpets of flying, bronze gryphons, and mirrors of scrying.
That said, I don't see any great value is this approach over the Tome approach of scaling items.
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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:01 am

There's no fundamental reason that one couldn't set up a game so that all the bonuses meant to keep PCs on the same RNG as monsters came as class features, feats, or even from intangible external sources like "the blessing of the wind king"
However the amount of effort to do that to 3.x D&D while still keeping everyone on the RNG and making sure all the oddball attacks and defenses are available in level-appropriate ways is staggeringly large. That's so much effort enough that I would rather attempt to talk people into playing Feng Shui or Champions or some other system that's at least halfway to such a goal already.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:31 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:That said, I don't see any great value is this approach over the Tome approach of scaling items.

Well, the idea is to try to do it without items rather than with scaling items. The Tome scaling idea is nice in that you don't have to upgrade your sword all the time, but you still need a sword.
Although, if all this system does is hand you out an enhancement bonus to hit and to damage, then you likely still need a magical items to hit ghosts and creatures with DR and what not. Maybe it's a moot point.

> Josh_Kablack wrote:However the amount of effort to do that to 3.x D&D while still keeping everyone on the RNG and making sure all the oddball attacks and defenses are available in level-appropriate ways is staggeringly large. That's so much effort enough that I would rather attempt to talk people into playing Feng Shui or Champions or some other system that's at least halfway to such a goal already.

Yeah. It seems like you'd need a huge ban list of non-plus items that still wreck the concept, and there's a lot to cover.
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:03 am

The real problem in 3.5 is that some classes are simply too item-dependent - mainly the DMFs. Casters benefit from items, surely, but items are what keeps DMFs from being "totally useless" as opposed to "largely useless".
I don't believe there's really a solution outside of remaking the game, or making abilities that simulate the effects of items (i.e. there's a feat that lets DMFs hit ghosts and such creatures). Either way, that's a lot of work.
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Ice9
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Post by Ice9 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:27 am

Low-items specifically, or actually low-magic? Because items, you could certainly remove - albeit not without some work.
Give some inherent bonuses to cover the numeric side, and then give a certain number of "blessing/secret" slots based on level. These are where the "keep the DMF from total obsolescence" stuff goes, like flight, SoL protection, and so forth. If you want more variety, you can say that your numeric bonuses are influenced by the blessings/secrets you have, so different characters will be a bit better/worse at given tasks.
Actually being low-magic is harder though. You either have to:
A) Accept "non-magic" wuxia-stunts like leaping hundreds of feet in the air and shouting your way through iron walls.
B) Stick to low-levels.
C) Completely redefine what "high-level" means, and what a "CR 20" monster looks like.
Last edited by Ice9 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:31 am

Item powers as class powers and feats. I've dabbled with that but not much.
Conversely, I could have sworn item powers were near-or-exact duplicates of existing spells, so if you play a full caster party.. you pretty much don't need items anyway.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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BearsAreBrown
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Post by BearsAreBrown » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:53 am

You could keep the 3.5e system in place but pretend WBL is an abstract power source granting abilities and bigger numbers.
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JongWK
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Post by JongWK » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:57 am

You might want to check Midnight 3.5e. I know I did.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:26 am

I played in one 2E game where all magic items were bad-ass and had a bunch of different powers (e.g. magic armor that also gives giant strength and a bonus to saves), and you'd get maybe two of them in your career. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for, though.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:13 am

> hogarth wrote:I played in one 2E game where all magic items were bad-ass and had a bunch of different powers (e.g. magic armor that also gives giant strength and a bonus to saves), and you'd get maybe two of them in your career. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for, though.

Seems like Diablo. The only problem with that is discarding unwanted equipment in favor of ever-optimized ones so that every tiny little bonus stacks up to eventually throw off the RNG.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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Dean
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Post by Dean » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:44 am

Ok, here's how you do it.
There's a lot of things your math has to make up for and that has to be handed to classes to make up for what they would normally require through items. Here's what I've found works:
All Characters receive a +1 bonus to one ability score every third level, however a character cannot increase a single ability score more than twice in a row.
All Characters now receive a feat at first level, and every even level after.
All Characters receive a +1 Dodge bonus at 1st level, and an additional +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.
All Characters receive a "Paragon" bonus at 10th level. This consists of +1 to all ability scores, a +1 Dodge AC bonus, +1 to all saves, and 1 Feat.
All Characters receive a "Legend" bonus at 15th level. This consists of +1 to all ability scores, a +1 Dodge AC bonus, +1 to all saves, and 1 Feat.
At first level all Characters gain HP equal to the maximum for their class hit die + bonus HP equal to their Constitution.
At Levels 5, 10, and 15 all Characters receive a +1 bonus on all skill and ability checks they make
With that said the following can be removed from allowed magic items:
Ability increasing items are banned
Armor Class increasing items are banned, but enhancement bonuses to Armor function as normal
Save increasing items are banned
Items that give bonuses to skills have those bonuses halved
There. That's something I've been running for years. Frankly there's also a bunch of stuff that's also in there but for a single post that's what you'll find works I think. The power level of the game doesn't change notably, basically all the magic items that people could plausibly give a shit about are still there, and the "Christmas tree" effect is largely dealt with.
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schpeelah
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Post by schpeelah » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:17 am

Well the laziest possible version of doing that is using virtual items. That is, the players write down all the +bonus items on their character sheets in accordance to their WBL, except those items to not actually exist in the gameworld, they're only numbers on the char sheet.
Pros: you do not need to figure out new number progressions, only use the existing system.
Cons: players are still doing shopping trips with all the bulllshit accounting involved, abeit only on levelup.
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PoliteNewb
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Post by PoliteNewb » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:23 am

> sigma999 wrote:

> > hogarth wrote:I played in one 2E game where all magic items were bad-ass and had a bunch of different powers (e.g. magic armor that also gives giant strength and a bonus to saves), and you'd get maybe two of them in your career. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for, though.

> Seems like Diablo. The only problem with that is discarding unwanted equipment in favor of ever-optimized ones so that every tiny little bonus stacks up to eventually throw off the RNG.

Maybe you misunderstood (or maybe I did)...I read that as "you never find tiny little bonus items to stack up or discard. You only find big huge badass items, and you only find them once in a blue moon. The rest of the time you have nothing".
So basically, the opposite of Diablo.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:44 am

Rewrite all classes to look like This or Ths.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:03 pm

> Ice9 wrote:Low-items specifically, or actually low-magic? Because items, you could certainly remove - albeit not without some work.
> Give some inherent bonuses to cover the numeric side, and then give a certain number of "blessing/secret" slots based on level. These are where the "keep the DMF from total obsolescence" stuff goes, like flight, SoL protection, and so forth. If you want more variety, you can say that your numeric bonuses are influenced by the blessings/secrets you have, so different characters will be a bit better/worse at given tasks.

Low items, not all magic.

> deanruel87 wrote:Ok, here's how you do it.
> There's a lot of things your math has to make up for and that has to be handed to classes to make up for what they would normally require through items. Here's what I've found works:
> <snip>
> There. That's something I've been running for years. Frankly there's also a bunch of stuff that's also in there but for a single post that's what you'll find works I think. The power level of the game doesn't change notably, basically all the magic items that people could plausibly give a shit about are still there, and the "Christmas tree" effect is largely dealt with.

I was trying to work out a system like this or what Ice9 suggested, with a pseudo-VoP style table to keep people on the RNG, but there seemed to be too many other holes. Even if you remove all the "plus" items, there are still other ways to gain vertical power, particularly for casters who can just buy more spell slots in the form of scrolls, wands, or staves, and also through stuff like metamagic rods.
Also, I couldn't think up a good way to actually make items feel "priceless" without a huge amount of DM arbitratum.

> FrankTrollman wrote:Rewrite all classes to look like This or Ths.

That is another option. I was more looking for a 3.5 fix, but there's a good chance it can't easily be done.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:32 pm

> schpeelah wrote:Well the laziest possible version of doing that is using virtual items. That is, the players write down all the +bonus items on their character sheets in accordance to their WBL, except those items to not actually exist in the gameworld, they're only numbers on the char sheet.
> Pros: you do not need to figure out new number progressions, only use the existing system.
> Cons: players are still doing shopping trips with all the bulllshit accounting involved, abeit only on levelup.

This is essentially what I do.
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Severian
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Post by Severian » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:39 pm

I remember seeing a system proposed here where each player had a certain amount of magic item points at a given level and each magic item they used took up some of those points. Something along those lines could work.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:42 pm

> PoliteNewb wrote:

> > sigma999 wrote: Seems like Diablo. The only problem with that is discarding unwanted equipment in favor of ever-optimized ones so that every tiny little bonus stacks up to eventually throw off the RNG.

> Maybe you misunderstood (or maybe I did)...I read that as "you never find tiny little bonus items to stack up or discard. You only find big huge badass items, and you only find them once in a blue moon. The rest of the time you have nothing".
> So basically, the opposite of Diablo.

Yes, exactly. That's not to say that there wasn't a down side; under that system, many encounters wouldn't have any magical goodies at all (except for maybe potions or scrolls). Whether that's better or worse than getting a bunch of "vendor trash" items is a matter of opinion.
Last edited by hogarth on Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wulf
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Post by Wulf » Thu Dec 02, 2010 2:49 pm

Simply adjust the general experience table in the PHB and remove relevant items from the game entirely.
The table shows what each character gets when gaining a level (like a feat once every 3 levels). Simply put there the bonusses you would normally get from the "big 6" items (enhancement bonus to armor, deflection bonus, natural armor bonus ,resistance, weapon enhancement, attribute enhancement). Simply add one or two bonuses each level.
The one that can give trouble is enhancement bonus to an attribute. You can either keep it seperate from normal attribute level bonusses and let players choose a primary (+6 max), secondary (+4) and tertiary (+2) statistic to buff, or you can combine it all together and simply say that each even level , a character gains +1 to two different attributes (+10 max on a single attribute at level 19/20). (it might be a little slower then buying the items normally, but you receive full enhancement bonusses as well).
A nice tier/paragon bonus at level 10 (and perhaps 20) is that +1 to two different attributes, becomes +1 to all attributes instead.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:12 pm

> PoliteNewb wrote:Maybe you misunderstood (or maybe I did)...I read that as "you never find tiny little bonus items to stack up or discard. You only find big huge badass items, and you only find them once in a blue moon. The rest of the time you have nothing".
> So basically, the opposite of Diablo.

Could go either way in understanding, I wouldn't know if I didn't.
The way I saw it would be that when a PC finds a particular class item, they;
1. Use it because they don't have any better, even though the random bonuses don't benefit them. As hogarth wrote, "vendor trash".
2. Exchange it for a purely optimized item that, when combined with other optimized items, makes a character dramatically more powerful. This is good for noncasters and bad for casters as far as interclass balance.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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Meikle641
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Post by Meikle641 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:18 pm

Sounds like this variant could be a good start.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:55 pm

> Meikle641 wrote:Sounds like this variant could be a good start.

That's pretty much just as shitty as everything else Ghostwheel has written. Largely, because he seems to hate his players.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:52 pm

So, what sucks about that type of approach?
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:56 pm

> RobbyPants wrote:So, what sucks about that type of approach?

Nothing in itself. It's just the fact that it's a MORE shitty version of Vow of Poverty that irks me.
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