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Blasted
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Post by Blasted » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:20 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:Each point would be about 200 ml (average human has ~5 L of blood; 40% blood loss can be fatal; 10 power points drained can be fatal). Because a character can give up all 13 pp, the volume of blood is probably closer to 150 ml for a normal vampire.
> The blood of a Potency 3 vampire will be ~100 ml per point, so your +6 Strength potion is about 600 ml of blood.

What this? No you may not have a swig sir, it's a magic coke bottle.

> King Francis I's Mother said wrote:The love between the kings was not just of the beard, but of the heart

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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:12 pm

Out of curiosity, does anybody have any advice on how much combat (per session or per few sessions) After Sundown can handle before the combat engine's simplicity starts making things tedious for everyone involved?
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:39 pm

For combat frequency, due to resolution and such, I tend to have only one or two per session to avoid the effects of tactical tedium.
One thing that vexes me is attempting to figure out the stat changes for Beast Form. The sample is that of turning into a Rat, maxing the Str to 1 and giving a +2 Agility; which is hard to understand with the normal rat stats of S 0/A 3. How does that translate for someone turning into an alligator or a dog (same Agility as the rat)? Can the Nezumi activate Vigor in rat form?
And because I don't know of a group that doesn't at least mention the question of what the stats would be.
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Blasted
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Post by Blasted » Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:09 am

Regarding combat, I run 1 combat for each face encounter. This is generally because I have a 50/50 split between combat and face characters. That works out as around 1 per session, with strong caveats.
I try and mix the combat up, so that they take place in interesting locations and with other options. So rather than just rolling X + combat, do damage, get bored; I'll have the players figuring out how to get to that sniper, or how to deal with the fog, or get into limbo to get the ghost, something like that. Depending on the powers available to the group. So that no player just does X and we all go home. The actual visceral combat itself is the conclusion of the combat scene, rather than the combat scene itself.
With transformations, I just get my players to pick a stat to increase by 2.
If a small animal is involved, Str becomes 1, which IMO makes up for the other abilities that the character may have (getting into tight places, flying to another location, etc.) I allow powers while in beast form.

> King Francis I's Mother said wrote:The love between the kings was not just of the beard, but of the heart

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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:03 am

Yeah, animals that are not appreciably smaller than you use your Strength and Agility plus a couple attribute points tacked on as you and the MC see fit because you're trying to be as an exceptional a version of that animal as you can manage. Smaller animals get a Strength cap, in which case you take your 2 Agility worth of free stats and get on with your life. You're unlikely to get results that truly look that insane that way unless you try pulling outlier stunts like being a morbidly obese dude with crap stats who wants to turn into a Siberian tiger or ask about being a high agility tortoise. The worst abuse possible is probably just saying "I can turn into an orangutan" and then using your close-enough-to-human hands to use weapons, something that frankly isn't that big of a deal either compared to what other powers get you. Anyway, it may not make logical sense to everyone that Shapeshifter Conan would make a nastier animal than Shapeshifter Rick Moranis but in terms of narrative support it's hardly unprecedented if you consider the form to be a reflection of the person in some manner.
As far as rats and Clout goes I'd let them use Vigor to boost their Resistances but still penalize their lifting and such since they're tiny and lack leverage. Now, if they ALSO have Devastation, then, yes, I am completely fine with nezumi jacking themselves up to Strength 5 and beating people to death with hammers and frying pans Tom and Jerry style. Warforms and Giant Size are still better for real throwdowns anyway.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:42 pm

New question:
Who here has used After Sundown's social combat system?
When I've run social persuasions before, my general modus operandi is
-Player tries to say something convincing or deceptive.
-Player rolls dice.
-If what player said was deemed especially eloquent by other players and MC, player gets small (+1 to +3 in a d20 system) to roll.
-If player totally flubbed the speaking portion, player takes small (-1 to -3 in a d20 system) penalty to roll.
We then see the result and arbitrate the in-game results based on the roll. It works fairly well, but it does favor eloquent players to a certain extent.
But AS's system is clearly a bit more in-depth than that. I'm seeing two potential interpretations, with two possible problems.
1. The player is more important than the skills. By this, I mean that Vampy the Vampire can only use, say, a Contention of Details or of Reference if Vampy's player (or even the entire band's players) can come up with reasons to use such a contentions.
The problem here is twofold: a.) Most players are not trained in logic. b.) Most characters will know way more about relevant information than their players will. I'm assuming that Vampy's 5 points in Politics of Limbo contains a lot more than Vampy's player will actually know.
2. The skills are more important than the skills. By this, I mean that Vampy's player can pretty much always choose to use a Contention of Details or whatever if he has the appropriate Background and his player wants to do so. This makes it much more like combat:
"I use Contention of Details!"
"I counter with an Appeal to Babble!"
"Fuck!"
The downside to this is that it makes social interaction scenes much more "black box-y" in nature. We as the people playing the game are losing a lot of information about what is actually being said. That doesn't matter that much in combat. We don't care as storytellers whether you flavor your killing strike as "I slide my sword through his ribs" or "I swing my blade wildly and strike him in the chest." But, in politically delicate situations like AS is often going to be modeling, exact wording and statements are likely to be important in future encounters.
This also introduces plausibility issues. If you can always use any sort of argumentation in any situation, it makes the content of the debates totally meaningless. Which I can't help but think will make the average player care about social encounters even less than they normally do.
It seems like it could give rise to issues like the following:
"Okay, the Prince uses a Contention of Details."
"What is her argument, and what details does she utilize?"
"..."
"I want to pick apart his argument with a Contention of Reference."
"Cool. What aspect of the argument are you going to examine to prove your point?"
"..."
Scenes like this just seem like they would ruin the verisimilitude of your narrative.
Am I missing something obvious here, or am I simply overestimating the flaws in my approaches?
Last edited by Blicero on Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
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Blasted
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Post by Blasted » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:37 am

> Blicero wrote:New question:
> Who here has used After Sundown's social combat system?
> But AS's system is clearly a bit more in-depth than that. I'm seeing two potential interpretations, with two possible problems.
> 1. The player is more important than the skills. By this, I mean that Vampy the Vampire can only use, say, a Contention of Details or of Reference if Vampy's player (or even the entire band's players) can come up with reasons to use such a contentions.
> The problem here is twofold: a.) Most players are not trained in logic. b.) Most characters will know way more about relevant information than their players will. I'm assuming that Vampy's 5 points in Politics of Limbo contains a lot more than Vampy's player will actually know.
> 2. The skills are more important than the skills. By this, I mean that Vampy's player can pretty much always choose to use a Contention of Details or whatever if he has the appropriate Background and his player wants to do so. This makes it much more like combat:
> "I use Contention of Details!"
> "I counter with an Appeal to Babble!"
> "Fuck!"
> The downside to this is that it makes social interaction scenes much more "black box-y" in nature. We as the people playing the game are losing a lot of information about what is actually being said. That doesn't matter that much in combat. We don't care as storytellers whether you flavor your killing strike as "I slide my sword through his ribs" or "I swing my blade wildly and strike him in the chest." But, in politically delicate situations like AS is often going to be modeling, exact wording and statements are likely to be important in future encounters.
> This also introduces plausibility issues. If you can always use any sort of argumentation in any situation, it makes the content of the debates totally meaningless. Which I can't help but think will make the average player care about social encounters even less than they normally do.
> Am I missing something obvious here, or am I simply overestimating the flaws in my approaches?

The only black boxy issue I've been running up against is that players stick with their best option and only use that. I could fix that somewhat by mixing up their adversaries. I have the players both say what the character is saying and tell me what type of 'attack' it is. Which is enough for us.
I have been slowly revealing the system as we go, so as they become more used to the system, this may change.
My biggest issue at the moment is that of the 3 players running 'face' style characters, one completely craps on the others. I'm hoping that a change of scene and bringing to the fore alternate backgrounds will mitigate this in the next two weeks. We'll see.

> King Francis I's Mother said wrote:The love between the kings was not just of the beard, but of the heart

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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:40 am

If a character using Hide from Notice is holding a torch or other lightsource, is the light emitted from the source visible to everyone nearby, only the holder, or no one at all?
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:11 pm

> Blicero wrote:If a character using Hide from Notice is holding a torch or other lightsource, is the light emitted from the source visible to everyone nearby, only the holder, or no one at all?

It's the same as in D&D - the object is invisible, but the light is visible. The light you shed is just like something you put down and becomes apparent to other people.
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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:57 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:
> It's the same as in D&D - the object is invisible, but the light is visible. The light you shed is just like something you put down and becomes apparent to other people.
> -Username17

Thank you. That is probably the most sensible interpretation, but having illumination visible only to the invisible person seemed either awesome or stupid enough to warrant checking.
Next question: Game mechanically, what does Supernatural Senses do? The flavor sez that you get supersenses. So does that translate to a threshold decrease for Perception tests of like 2 or something? Or is the effect more subtle?
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Blasted
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Post by Blasted » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:08 am

> Blicero wrote: Next question: Game mechanically, what does Supernatural Senses do? The flavor sez that you get supersenses. So does that translate to a threshold decrease for Perception tests of like 2 or something? Or is the effect more subtle?

Just having a basic Discernment power gives you a +2 to Perception tests. That is different from lowering the threshold, but it needed to be noted that the character would already have a bonus.
I've been running it as if the character were equipped with binoculars, telescope microphone or pack of drug dogs as required. Which is very MTP, but there you go.

> King Francis I's Mother said wrote:The love between the kings was not just of the beard, but of the heart

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Aryxbez
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Post by Aryxbez » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:49 pm

So I'm currently playing in a All Flesh Must Be Eaten campaign (A Zombie survival RPG), and it works so far, but for the worst parts, reminds me the ills of what playing in a White Wolf game must be like (given it made in 90's, which Vampire was popular around that time I believe). Thus, in case we might seek another system, wondering how After Sundown would handle such a kind of game?
So far from what I've skimmed, given confirmation of Zombies, styles of play like "The Origin Story" that'd be simple enough for whole "horror" bit (though this game is bit more action-like), but I wanted to see what I might be missing. Especially since in a common Zombie Survival tale like 28 days later, or Left 4 Dead, the protagonists are obvious mortals that aren't rocking special powers, or otherwise monsters themselves.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:46 am

Well, if your group is anything like my group that I played WoD/AFMBE with, they'll turn it into a highly combat oriented game, with everyone trying to find a way to get weapons as soon as possible (I've played a Conspiracy-theorist Mall Santa*, World War 2 Vet, Neo-nazi, and "Columbine Kid" to begin play with guns. I've seen bikers and cops as well) So whatever system you use to run a Zombie Survival game needs a robust combat system, because one of the things people really like about zombies is the "Acceptable Targets" thing.
*Ok, 90% of the reason I settled on that concept was for the sheer mental image of a Mall Santa, beard askew, atop a pile of zombies, swinging a bag full of presents at one, and shooting another in the head with a shotgun.
Last edited by Prak on Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Hicks
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Post by Hicks » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:47 pm

Has anybody else noticed that Khaibit witches are intensely boned due to MAD? Logic (which is maxed at 7 because it is used in 5 dice-pools), Intuition (which is now boned because Logic ate up the mental stats, making this at 3), and Willpower (which will be 4~5), the thing is that a necromancer is gonna have a STR/AGI of 2/2 or 3/1, and their Solid Darkness is always going to max out at 3; those are pretty worthless as attributes intended for use in actual combat.
I hear your counter argument right now, "but you can just use Path of Flame to rock out a 7 damage Firestarter!" Or you pick up Devastation and Telekinesis, or Nightcry and anything else, whatever. The point is that every other monster can use both their innate advanced diciplines instead of picking one and having the other be dead weight because both the those diciplines use different attributes (not a problem) in the same attribute group (totally a problem).
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Grek
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Post by Grek » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:21 pm

Let's take a look at your disciplines as a Khaibit:
Compel Spirits: Opposed test between Willpower + Empathy or Logic + Bureaucracy, vs. the target ghost's Willpower.
Summon Spirits: Logic + Medicine or Logic + Operations; TN tops out at 4 for most practical purposes and costs no power points.
Reanimate: Logic + Medicine or Logic + Operations vs TN 3, but requires Willpower to actually control a reasonable number. Is done during downtime.
Solid Darkness: Has Strength equal to your Intuition, but no other requirements.
Aura Perception: Intuition + Empathy or Logic + Research, but only to identify shit and only for non-Gloom stuff.
Eyes of the Night: Intuition + Empathy or Intuition + Perception
Bite of the Serpent: Passive, equires no actual roll.
Thaumaturgical Forensics: Logic + Medicine or Logic + Research.
In order to reliably get your zombies raised in under a day, to get Summon Spirits to work for you and to get Thaumaturgical Forensics to tell you want you want to know, you need a combined Logic + Medicine dicepool of 12, and you can get a Specialization (dead people) to help with that. So you can get away with a 4 in Logic, a 6 in Medicine and 2 from the Specialization to get your dicepool up to a reasonable level and still take a 6 in Intuition for Aura Perception, Solid Darkness and Eyes of the Night.

> FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.

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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:01 am

If you want to focus on skill boosting with Edge, the only two skills a Khaibit needs are Empathy and Medicine. You already start with +1 to Medicine.
Or you can throw in Perception (a good skill anyway), and start out at +2 to Eyes of Night.
Or, as you said, you can boost Logic to 6 or 7 and not worry too much about your shambler limit, eyes of night (which work fine with a low Intuition), and solid darkness.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:05 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote:

> > > CatharzGodfoot wrote:So, it turns out that Veils of Morpheus works pretty much like Shadowrun hacking. This is not a good thing.

> > Please elaborate on that. I agree that would not be a good thing.

> The problematic powers are Denial of Privacy, Realization, and Dream Vision.
> With Realization and Denial of Privacy, you end up on a Magic Tea Party adventure that nobody else can join unless they bought the same power set. With Dream Vision and Realization, you can throw armies of asura at victims on the other side of the earth.
> My off-the-cuff solution for Realization is that it throws the dreamer into Deep Dream (along with anyone else in the dream) until they wake up. For Denial of Privacy, the Supernatural might be able to dream-hop while accumulating willing dreamers.
> Dream Vision is tough, because it's neat that you can combine it with Realization, but you want to be able to make people dream of apocalypses, vampires, and hellmouths as well as just simulacrums of yourself telling them things. Maybe you can do the normal dream messaging stuff, and choose where in the Deep Dark people get kicked into when you use Realization. Maybe it also extends the range of Denial of Privacy?
> These changes should allow hacking more along the lines of Inception rather than SR.

This is certainly food for thought, as I'm contemplating the implications of Veil in my campaign. Perhaps have Dream Vision act as Phantasmagoria that only works in dreams/maya?
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Post by virgil » Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:44 am

Another ritual that would be good to know/create, what does it take to cure a zombie?
Come see Sprockets & Serials
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:30 am

Some friends and I are thinking about starting an After Sundown game set in 1920s California. The PCs are all struggling doctors who may or may not be fleeing troubles at home to set up unlicensed operations catering to the very poor. It is an Origin Story game to start with.
My PC would be a Chinese immigrant who knows enough traditional medicine to make a living off it. Most likely going to end up a Dryad barring events in the story pushing a different direction.
Any suggestions for the setting in general or my PC in particular? Nefarious Bolsheviks and Neo-Nazis have both been brought up as appealing antagonistic figures.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:15 am

Um... I think the 1920s is a tad early for nazis. However, it would be awesome to do an AS early 1900's gangsters game. It's the era of Prohibition, meaning your flappers are all sneaking down to speak easys to drink and flirt, and quite possibly sit on attractive mens' laps smoking, and possibly not cigarettes.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Korgan0
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Post by Korgan0 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:17 am

Nativism is going to be alive and well, however, even if it's too early for widespread, organized fascist parties.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:20 pm

It's mostly early for Neo-Nazis. Otherwise, the '20s isn't too bad a period for fascist stuff to be happening, really, although it's impact on the US will be rather muted--by '25 Benito has marched on Rome and Hitler has started his book in prison, but the US still has its own shit to be worried about.
Domestically the big things in the '20 that leap out are organized crime (Prohibition ahoy!), unscrupulous industrialism, union busting and corruption. Remember, Animal Farm hasn't been written yet and California is still built largely on oil and railroads. So communism isn't necessarily all that scary to the common man quite yet given that their boss is played by Daniel Day-Lewis and may be prone to drinking up your milkshake. So while there's Red Scare going it's actually pretty government driven in a lot of ways and I'm not sure how much of your game you want to spend on beating down engineers. So if you really want to fight the Reds you might want to wait until the '30s and the Great Purge and Spanish Revolution has hit and shit is getting less ambiguous.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:30 am

So, I started writing up a campaign style for AS earlier, and I found that several of the main characters from the source material have powers that are always on, which in AS have to be activated, and last a scene at most, such as a Gargoyle (Troglodyte with Flesh of Marble and Flight). What would be an acceptable way to let pcs have such always active powers?
Edit: second question: does the astral nullifying ability of salt apply only to NaCl, to any form of Sodium, or does it apply to any alkali metal/metal salt? Can you get the same benefit from potassium? This is important for reasons.
Last edited by Prak on Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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LR
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Post by LR » Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:02 am

Can Transformation be rescinded by the caster, or does it always last its full duration unless somebody throws salt onto the victim?
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:14 am

> LR wrote:Can Transformation be rescinded by the caster, or does it always last its full duration unless somebody throws salt onto the victim?

The latter. Of course, anyone who knows enough sorcery to turn you into a hamster is also going to know about the salt thing.
In general, I don't read the homebrew board that often unless I am personally at the stage of dumping something onto it. So if you want a fast answer, it's way better to ask it in the IMHO board. That's where general discussion and game questions and stuff go.
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