# The Gaming Den

Welcome to the Gaming Den.

Skip to content

## Angry Drunk Review - 5e Monster Manual: A Modern Relic

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply

- Print view

295 posts

- Page 3 of 12
  - Jump to page:
- Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- …
- 12
- Next

Occluded Sun
  Duke
  Posts: 1044
  Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 6:15 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Occluded Sun » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:11 am

> RobbyPants wrote:I guess it depends on the context. I have a beef with "it can't lie, but it can totally mislead people because that's not technically lying, so it's good".
> I don't have a problem with "It can't lie, even if it needs to save people, as some sort of compulsion, but it can still mislead people".

That's not 'context'. That's the connotations of the chosen words. You're like the people who freak out when they're told that dihydrogen monoxide is found within 98% of cancerous tumors, or that science can't explain why duck quacks don't echo.

> One is an excuse for a good creature to be a dick and the other is an odd limitation that could be worked around.

No, they denote the same condition. But one description activates different associations with your mind.
Also, I don't think you've really thought through the implications of NOT being able to let other entities leap to the wrong conclusions. That mandates pedantic, endless clarification.
Top

RobbyPants
  King
  Posts: 5201
  Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:11 pm

###

- Quote

Post by RobbyPants » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:43 am

> Occluded Sun wrote:

> > RobbyPants wrote:I guess it depends on the context. I have a beef with "it can't lie, but it can totally mislead people because that's not technically lying, so it's good".
> > I don't have a problem with "It can't lie, even if it needs to save people, as some sort of compulsion, but it can still mislead people".

> That's not 'context'. That's the connotations of the chosen words. You're like the people who freak out when they're told that dihydrogen monoxide is found within 98% of cancerous tumors, or that science can't explain why duck quacks don't echo.

You already missed the post where I said that the other interpretation looked like it makes more sense. You're arguing against a position no one is even taking anymore.
Also, your analogies are terrible.

> Occluded Sun wrote:Also, I don't think you've really thought through the implications of NOT being able to let other entities leap to the wrong conclusions. That mandates pedantic, endless clarification.

That's not where I was originally going with that. That being said, I don't really feel like discussing ethics with our resident slave apologist who thinks that women should be solely responsible for preventing their own rapes.
Top

Occluded Sun
  Duke
  Posts: 1044
  Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 6:15 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Occluded Sun » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:38 pm

That's okay, I've made a resolution not to 'debate' with people who lack reading comprehension due to dementia.
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
Top

Occluded Sun
  Duke
  Posts: 1044
  Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 6:15 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Occluded Sun » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:56 pm

Unless otherwise noted, any Lawful Good character can go about tricking and deluding people. It's just that they'll tend to do so for Lawful and Good ends.
This point is emphasized only because the creature is so very Lawful that direct lies aren't possible - the authors want to make sure the reader understands that interesting social interactions are still possible.
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
Top

Shrapnel
  Prince
  Posts: 3146
  Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:14 pm
  Location: Burgess Shale, 500 MYA
  Contact:
  Contact Shrapnel
  Website

###

- Quote

Post by Shrapnel » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:45 pm

> Occluded Sun wrote:That's okay, I've made a resolution not to 'debate' with people who lack reading comprehension due to dementia.

Such as yourself?
Is this wretched demi-bee
Half asleep upon my knee
Some freak from a menagerie?
No! It's Eric, the half a bee
Top

Krusk
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 601
  Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:56 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Krusk » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:19 am

Go debate alignment in any of the other 4000 threads on every other board around. I get that the coutal's alignment is very much written in a way that says "And your DM should fuck you hard" but thats really the case with this whole book.
Its time for the big D. Dragons, Devils, Demons, etc. Be prepped for a longer entry tonight.
Darkmantle
Yet another Fuck You (Drink) monster, this one pretends to be a stalactite or stalagmite. Its a floating octopus in the underdark that drops on you and eats your face. They also have a darkness aura that darkvision can't penetrate. What's interesting is their vision modes and their aura. The aura is 15ft around them and lasts 10 minutes, so they hear stuff and turn it on. The weird part, is that because darkvision doesn't penetrate it adventurers just see areas of "Super darkness" and immediately know "Well something is up, I can't see anything in that area. Throw some AOE spells there" and kil it before it does anything. Alternatley, it totally ignores that ability, says "Fuck you" and drops on you, when you see it and it drops on you. So it can use its power of darkness and give itself away, or they can ignore it and suprise you. Also, it doesn't do a whole lot of damage, so it just drops on you, and then everyone kills it. They are basically traps.
Death Knight
The fluff for these is that they are made when a paladin that falls from grace dies without seeking atonement. The weird part here is that there no requirement for paladins to be good in 5e. Its implied, but you could totally take an "Oath of Vengence" and become a "Dark Knight" who has an "aura of menace" with the policy of "ordinary foes might win my mercy, but my sworn enemies do not". So the idea that you are evil, and break your vow to murder every elf you see, and become a Death Knight seems weird. Basically its a stupid concemt, but it fufills the concept of "Melee lich" a bunch of people were debating here. Most importantly here, there are no rules for it happening to your PC. This isn't a template, this is just a static monster. So your level 3 paladin that fails his oath to protect the weak and dies in the process? CR 17 death knight. Your Level 20 paladin who does the same? CR 17 death knight. Your halfling paladin? He is a medium creature. The Giant paladin, same thing. They get some arbitrarty spells which is cool, but basically anyone with a bow and wings can beatr them. They have a "Hellfire orb" that lets them throw fireballs for 70 damage, but its save for half and 1/day. So just dodge that and be done with it. Its AC is 20, but it can up that to 26 vs 1 melee attack a round which is neat. He is basically great as a general for a horde of skeletons, but can't really do anything else. Outside of his decent AC and damage he really could be CR 12 or 13 and I don't think it would be a big deal. Oh, also its unkillable until it atones, but its CE and so I assume it just chooses to never die and continue to kill stuff.
demilich
This probably should have come after lich, maybe as a seperate entry like beholders and Death Tyrants or something. Anyway, a demilich literally means Half Lich, so you expect it to be some sort of partial lich, but its basically an evolution/degradation? Its what happens once a lich stops this stupid new thing they introduced where they have to drain essence every (undefined) days or turn into one of these. Its really unclear. Anyway, the stats for the Demilich appear before the title "Demilich" so thats a little weird. Its undead, but arbitrarily immune to turning (Fuck You, drink). It also just always has 3.5 improved evasion for all saves that do damage. This being 5e, most saves do damage. It has really low HP, and if it comes near the party it will die, but it has a fly speed so why would it? It has two attacks, a howl or a life drain. The howl has a 30ft radius and the lift drain has a 10ft. So basically this monster is awful and should never be used. Its going to run into a party, howl with a DC 15 con save (or die) and then just get beat down. Its legendary actions are all "Within 30ft of it" or closer, which suck. It can fly, whip up dust, or reduce peoples max HP. The curse isn't bad, but it costs all 3 legendary actions, and basically means you get beaten down. Its a save DC 15 (low as shit) or disadvantage on everything from now on. It gets a save every round so you eventually will get over it. Fluff wise this is where it talks about how liches have to feed souls int their phylactery. It gives a reason they keep fucking with mortals, but it ruins the image of a dude locked in a crypt for decades. In the fluff stuff it mentions that they still have a phylactry that will keep respawning them. This is helpful in the statblock, but not included. It also talks about how to adjust their hit points. In that it says "They always have max hp for their Hit die". Not in that it tells you how to make one with higher or lower hit die. A demi liches lair is all the same BS powers as normal + it can cause you to not regain HP if you are near the lich. The lair traits are worth reading because they do arbitrary HP damage when you enter. Enough to kill 1st level PCs, but other than that you just immediatley heal via magic/rest. You also cant teleport into them because demiliches are magic, but don't have spells anymore. Lastly, its got some BS about demi-liches and how Acererak and other demi-liches have an increased CR, and have a trap the soul check with a DC 19 CHARISMA! save. It traps your soul in a gem, and this doesn't seem to help it any. I mean, you are out of a fight, but thats about it. The fluff implies this gem is also your phylactry but they don't say it is. just that Acererak uses his. If you break the gem you free people inside it. But again, this doesn't seem to do anything except act as a random save or die that no one will pass. I mean, thats handy, but there is no goal in mind. Oh, and if you thought he just collected them to be evil and stuff, after 24 hours your soul is destroyed killing you.
Demons
This is the first big one. Demons. They are the embodiment of chaos and evil and exist only to destroy. Demons are made a bunch of ways. Arbitrarily spawned from the abyss, some of which gets stats here, and some are a make your own monster, which won't get stats. Others are made from mortals shunned or cursed by the gods. Not just the good gods apparently either. So Evil gods can totally curse heroes and turn them into demons I'd assume. Good gods can curse villains and turn them into demons, but that seems like you are powering up the enemy team, so I'm not sure why they would. Look, they didn't think it through very far, so you shouldn't either. it talks about how demons get promoted by killing dudes. They literally transform from a Mane into a Dretch into a Vrock etc. Kind of weird but OK. Well later on, they explain that this isn't how they grow anyway, so I'm not sure if this matters. It also explains that demon lords and other higher ranking demons can promote one another. Seems like an awfully heirarchical organization for the embodiment of chaos, but hey, whatever. Next up is a line hidden in the fluff about how when you kill them they immediatley respawn in the abyss, but without a reference to where. So maybe right next to the gate they came through, or maybe not. Also not important because they contradict that later and say it may take hundreds of years and this pisses them off. Demons can put their essence in amulets and then respawn at the given spawn point if they want, but doing that means that the owner of your amulet can extract favors. It doesn't really say how, but I'm sure your DM won't dick you over. Next we have a bunch on how summoning demons is bad and dangerous, but no real evidence for why or how. A bit on binding them, but again, no idea how. Oh and sometimes if you bind it, it just breaks free. Next we get into demon lords, and its revealed you can also become a demon by owning lots of the abyss. The demon lords are described here instead of in a religion section for (reasons)
I won't discuss them in depth but the list is Baphomet, Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Juiblex, Lolth, Orcus, Yeenoghu, "Other". Its the same fluff as always, but in 2 paragraphs each. None of them get stats in this book. You shouldn't be fighting them anyway, this is old school DND.
Demon Types
This is important. Demons have types now, and the types all get a number. These types are pretty strict, and if you aren't an existing type, you are a minor demon or demon lord. Again, the typing seems against character for chaos monsters, but 5e. Apparently that promotion I mentioned takes you from type 1 to type 2. Overall I just can't see anyone giving a shit about the different ranks. Its enough to know that dretches are at the bottom, then the rest and then balors. Whats interesting though is that apparently Goristro's and Balors are on the same rank. Thats news to me and I doubt people will actually use this.
True Names. In the middle of demon types, there is an entry on true names. basically it says you can learn their name and summon them to do stuff. Unfortunatly it doesn't say what you can do, how you can summon it, and only that you can exert "some measure of control". So Drink up. This is basically an indication that your DM should make some rules up for this.
Variant: Demon Summoning. Some demons can summon other demons. There is an obnoxious chart here instead of at each entry for what every demon in this book can summon. Somehow this doesn't adjust CR.
Balor
The balor has a badass sword. Thats about all I can say for it. Otherwise its a dumb (int 20 somehow) brute with flight and a fire aura. Somehow they don't get legendary actions, which seems a crime, but basically it flys around and full attacks people inside a fire aura. Its pretty boring but a solid CR 19 fight.
Barlgura
This things art looks bad. Like cartoonish bad. its CR 5 but has some innate spells like invisibility, entangle, and the ability to jump 40ft at people. Its AC of 15 seems low for CR 5, but it makes 3 attacks. i can see it blasting entangle, disappearing. Reappearing on the mage, ending his day, and then running off. They don't get their previous editions abilities to carry people off though, which is kind of lame. Its basically a melee bruiser who can set fights up beforehand.
Chasme
They seem kind of lame, and honestly are on their own. They are the giant mosquito ones. The trick to make them not lame is a group of them. They are CR 6, and so throwing 10 of them into any CR 10+ fight shouldn't raise the CR much. What it actually does though is forces everyone to make a super low DC 12 con save. If you fail, you go to sleep. Every demonic force needs a bunch of these in every army. Each one forces its own save, meaning you start a fight with 4 asking the PCs to each roll 4 saves. Fuck that, someone fails. And it has no action, so whatever. Its got a probiscious, which sucks and does a ton of damage, but its only 1 attack and an AC of 15. So even with their fly speed, it hits somoene, ends his day, and then the fighters who all pass their save beat on it.
Dretch
These are the CR 1/4 dudes, but somehow they get multiattack. Bite and claw. They seem to give that out at random honestly.1/day it can do a cloud thing, but otherwise it sucks at everything, which fits with the dretch fluff.
Glabrezu
CR 9. Somehow I've never noticed a picture of these. I can kind of see why, the general look is sort of dumb, and I'd probably just skim them. They have a 1/day confusion, but other than that just pound people with 4 attacks a round. (two of which have the fuck you grappled power) It seems like yet another dumb bruser, and outside the confusion it doesn't have a lot going on. Flight beats them.
Goristro
these were some of my favorites before. Its a little upsetting to still see them lose any fight to a flying foe. Its got a charge attack, and immune to mazes but otherwise lame. It punches stuff.
5e Demon fights.
Hezrou
These gus are non-fliers and have no defense for flight. For reference, swap "up a tree" with flight as needed for these examples. The hezrou art looks sweet, but thats about it. their stench power is cool, and works like the chasme's so a swarm isn't terrible, but they have a 30ft move speed and no mobility powers. So they just sort of lumber over to you.
Manes
These are basically the same thing as a Dretch, but without any powers at all.
Marilith
I've also been a fan of these, and outside of their total lack of flight defense, they are decent combatants. They can teleport into melee, and unload 7 attacks a round and parry melee weapons making their AC 23. By and large, their tactic is to kill one PC a round, by teleporting ontop of wizards. If fought with any friends (or 2+ at a time) these can be a mess. If fought alone, its still mobile enough, and decent enough at offense to hold its own. Unless you fly, then this CR 16 foe just falls over.
Nalfeshnee
Likewise I've always thought these were dumb. They still are, but at CR 13, their DC 15 wisdom save aura isn't terrible. Basically they teleport ontop of people, unleash an aura and prays it recharges.
Quasit
Somehow these can be familiars. It doesn't say how you get one but its strictly better than PHB. This line comes up a few times and always applies. This thing is pretty sweet, and can turn into bats, centepedes and toads if you want something more casual. Its got scare powers, and can turn invisible for awesome scouting. there are no rules for how to get one, so get ready.
I love that this is hosted at some school.
Shadow Demon
Super uncreative name. These are pig faced black ghosts or something. At CR 4 they will fuck your party up with their incorporeal movement, giant list of immunities, and flight. It doesn't do crazy damage for CR 4, but its enough that a few harrying you all day will ruin your chances of safe travel.
Vrock
My all time favorite demon. Giant purple evil vultures. Their traditional dance has been removed, but now its got a few short range burst abilities centered on itself. That kind of sucks... Anyway, its got flight but it has to engage you in melee, so it doesn't really matter much.
Yochlol
These apparently serve Lolth, and can turn into Hot Goth Chicks, spiders or weird orange stalagmites. Guess which one they opted to draw (instead of all 3). Its CR 10 which is weird, and the fluff is all about how only Lolth can make them. Seems weird, and not like the rest of the demons but whatever. This ties into my thought that Lolth shouldn't be a demon, but just a giant spider chick who lives near demons. Its basically got dominate person 1/day and then melee attacks. It has a mist form which is neat, because it is toxic. So I imagine fights with these consist of the DM seeing the pic, and assuming they are ambush monsters like ropers. Then after init realizing that they can try to dominate someone and finally just cruising around in mist form poisoning people. Its poison incapacitates you, so then its CDGs. I can see this being a TPK or a cakewalk depending on how much your DM reads.
So thats it on demons. Basiclly just big bruiser foes. Moving right along we find Devils.
Devils
Devils are basically the exact same thing as demons from the entry. They have a weird caste system, but it makes sense for them. The only major difference you as a reader need to know if that there are 9 layers of hell, not infinite layers of the abyss, and devils will taunt you then kill you instead of kill you. They are even spawned and upgraded in the same way.
The Infernal Heirarchy
This is a big deal apparently and my comment on demons stands. People won't give a shit. Basically there are promotions and demotions through the ranks, but instead of 6 ranks with multiple demons at each rank they have 13 ranks with 1 demon at each one. This is an interesting choice, because in that Demons can expand and just say "this is also rank 4" devils can't. Every devil that will be printed for 5e is apparently in this book. That seems unlikely, so expect a retcon.
Rankings
1 - Lemure
Lesser Devils
2- Imp
3 - Spined Devils
4 - Bearded Devils
5 - Barbed Devil
6 - Chain Devil
7 - Bone Devil
Greater Devils
8 - Horned Devil
9 - Erinyes
10 - Ice Devil
11 - Pit Fiend
ArchDevils
12 - Duke or duchess
13 - Archduke or Archduchess
It throws in that the true names and amulets things demons do applies here too, along with the "sometimes they summon stuff" but its just as vague as before. It also throws a note about imp familiars here instead of near the imp stats. So if you don't read this, go fuck yourself.
The archdukes/duchesses
Layer
1 - Zariel
2 - Dispater
3 - Mammon
4 - Belial and Fierna
5 - Levistus
6 - Glasya
7 - Baalzebul
8 - Mephistopheles
9 - Asmodeus
Barbed Devil
CR 5, and at first glance its a melee bruiser. Your expectation is that it runs in, grapples dudes, and sucks. It doesn't do that at all. In fact, it damages anyone dumb enough to grapple it, but has no powers to do so. In reality, these probably use their hurl flame power and act as artillery pieces blasting things for some fire damage and burning flammable objects. Its actually a decent monster, if it weren't so unintuitivly designed.
Bearded Devil
Another favorite of mine, these CR 3 foes are probably worth fighting. Basic bruisers, but they get 2 attacks a round. A beard that poisons dudes, and a glaive that infernally wounds them dealing more and more damage over time. The wound seems annoying to track if you fight with more than 2-3 of them in a fight, but if you can get over it, this can make them effective for a long time.
Bone Devils
these things look wicked. Not like they are at all intelligent, but wicked none the less. They are CR 9, and have a fly speed, but only melee attacks so who cares. Their AC of 19 is actually really nice for this level. they have variant where they can have a special polearm that grapples people, which somehow doesn't raise their CR. Its a Fuck You grapple though, so i can see them doing that, and flying off with people. I love that they solved the "Its hard for PCs to win grapples" problem by just saying "Actually they just can't ever win. No rolls needed". Drink.
Chain Devil
Its hard to draw this and no look stupid, and that should be a sign that this monster is stupid. Apparently not taken though. These guys are basically CR 8 melee brutes with 10ft reach. The nice power is their unnerving mask ability, which lets it force will saves whenever anyone comes near it or be frightened. They have an "Animate Chains" power but it sucks and just doesn't do much.
Erinyes
Speaking of shitty art, this is probably the worst in the book. Its a CR 12 foe, that has flight and a longbow. Its for 18AC and 153 HP, so its a bit of a tank. Basically they just fly around and are dicks, using the exact tactic that defeats most monsters in this book. I don't know these ladies aren't running everything. Their traditional "magic rope that attacks you" power is now a variant that won't increase their CR. Unfortunatly it just says "sometimes they have a magic item Rope of Entanglement as found in the DMG". So I'm forced to pull out another book which isn't published yet, and assume the item sucks and shouldn't be used. Really these guys just fly at 600ft away from you and blast you with 3 +7 attcks a round for 7+13 poison damage. DC 13 or be poisoned until you get lesser restoration. Also, I feel like a new edition is the perfect time to get these renamed into the ___ Devil name scheme. Arrow Devils. Archer Devils.
Horned Devil
This picture is interesting. I love the dudes face and pose, but otherwise its not great. Its got this look like you found it slacking on the job and it doesn't give a fuck. Its got a sweet fly speed and can throw fire. So its a decent challenge at CR 11. It can also do pretty decent in melee.
Yo man I don't even need this job
Ice Devil
back into sweet art, this thing looks badass. Its CR 14, can make walls, and is decent in melee. It can't stop you from flying over the wall, but otherwise you are going to have some tactical thought to the encounter. It has some variant giving them a magic spear that reduces your speed and reduces your actions. Somehow this doesn't increase its CR, but I also just noticed you don't know what happens if you steal its spear. Same for the other variant monsters in this book where they get special weapons. I guess you can use them? That would be cool, so my assumption is no? Drink something and your DM will be nice.
imp
Remeber these can be familiars, so you should always have one. Its better than the quasit, but less ridiculous looking. Same powers just better though. Its also poisonous so enjoy that.
Lemure
I always like lemures, but I cant tell if this one is some sort of centaur style lemure ooze, or if its in the middle of forming. Maybe they have legs, maybe not. Its unclear. They are CR 0, and have a bit about how they regen in the hell if killed. thats actually helpful, but applies to all devils, so not sure why they included it this time and this time only.
Pit Fiend
There has been a lot of talk on this. Its at will fireballs help it deal with far away foes and its fly speed isn't bad. In general its underwhelming compared to old pit fiends, but next to a balor its interesting. Without legendary actions, I assume its not ment to be a boss anymore, but to fight alongside a boss monster. It can probably do that OK enough. and the art....dear god thats bad.
Spined Devil
This almost makes up for the pit fiend. This thing is sweet looking, and CR 2. Its got flight and a ranged attack, so I assume it can TPK most adventurers, but its low AC means most people can probably take it down with Bows if they are smart. Its flyby power means it can run in, spear you and fly away which is nice too.
And thats it for devils. Again no stats for Archdukes and archduchesses, because only munchkins would fight them.
Dinosaur
Dinosaurs are awesome, so I'm glad they are re-included and the explanation is helpful. It talks about how they are extinct, just rare and in remote places. Thats a nice official stance to see, for people who want to turn into them and then have to explain that there wasn't a DND Ice Age. I won't review them all, as they are CR 2-8 melee brutes exclusively. list is Allosaurus, ankylosaurus, plesiosaurus, pteranodon, triceratops, Tyrannosaurus Rex. I'd pull allosaurus for raptors because of popularity, but otherwise a decent split.
Displacer Beast
They do a good job bringing the blink dog rivalry to forefront this edition. i feel like others didn't bother. Anyway, these are CR 3, have 13 AC but 85HP and avoidance and displacement. Avoidance gives them improved evasion, and displacement means attack rolls have disadvantage aginst it. I can see these being a difficult challenge. Their int is 6, and the book makes a big deal out of how intelligent they are. This is interesting, because other int 6 and 7 things are described as borderling handicapped. Weirdly enough for the displacer beasts attacks is that it can't bite or claw. Only tentacle attacks
Doppleganger
This guy can shapechange whenever it wants, and talks about how they basically trick people into sleeping with them, and then go out for cigarettes until the kid is 13. Then the kid goes out for cigs as well. They are CR 3, but they really suck in combats. They have a slam attack, or two because somehow it has multiattack but basically is just a rogue. Because they get sneak attack.
Dracolich
this should probably come after dragons, it being a template that can be applied to dragons and all. but whatever. Apparently dragons go through a special lichdom ritual and become special liches. This is an older thing from previous editions, but really should have been cut. It just gives the dragon a bunch of immunities, but doesn't seem to make them weaker in any way. So obviously, your CR stays the same.
Dragon, Shadow
This is another template for dragons. This time listed differently than the one before it. Its super confusing to read, because its title is also the first in the book to start mid way down a page. Basically this is for dragons who go to the shadow planes and ... bullshit... you get a dragon made of shadows. This really should have been the filler for MM4 frankly.
Wel thats it. Its time for Dragons! The titular monster of the name, so important it gets first billing compared to dungeons.
Ironically this is the 4e dragon. Keep it in mind.
Dragons
This is almost its own mini book, so I will break down sections by sections.
We start with some stuff on their age catagories, and all dragons of the same age are the same size. This is probably an improvement as its easier to track. They also age at the same rate. Again same deal. What isn't OK is that the biggest dragon ever is 20ft by 20ft. See that pic? our dragon fits inside that building the dragon is sitting on. Fuck this noise. Finish the bottle, and burn the book. No one has ever complained that dragons were too big. I've never heard it once. I hear consistantly that DND dragons aren't big enough to tell the stories we want. Whoever pitched the idea of an elephant sized dragon should have not been laughed out of the room but shouted out. a 20ft dragon is unacceptable.
DND dragons fit in this tent.
Moving past that, we get a sweet variant. They pose the idea that maybe your DM might want to consider giving dragons spells! what an idea, dragons as spellcasters. This book is the worst. They don't even get real spellcasting, they get a number of spells equal to their charisma modifier 1/day with a max level of no more than 1/3 its CR rounded down. Sure your DM can pick some real shitty spells for you to fight, but its still only going to have like what 5 tops?
Chromatic Dragons
We are keeping this BS Chromatic/metallic/dicks dragon divide. I don't think the metallic dragons are needed, and can see us getting along fine with only evil dragons, so Ill rant about it there.
Apparently these creatures of ego that consider themselves near gods all follow Tiamat, the evil Dragon Queen. She can grant spells to her worshipers (Dragons?) but there are not rules for that here. Figure it out yourself. She is a gigantic (20ft) dragon with 5 heads and "formidable spellcasting". But we won't provide stats, because your DM can just make something approperiate up for that.
Black Dragon
At least the dragon art is consistently cool. the black dragon has some lame legendary actions and these carry on to all dragons. free spot checks, tail slaps, and a wing attack knocking people prone. Overall the dragons are all basically the same. so I won't go into stats on the others. they have a breath weapon that does decent damage and recharges on a 5-6. They all have a fly speed. all have frighteful presence for a decent distance forcing actual save or die, and they are all decent melee combatants.
Apparently Black dragons are the most evil of the evil dragons, because they are black, into death and live in swamps. They really come off like the super poser black metal fans, but I won't even go into how everyone is a poser and I'm the only Kvlt Black Metal fan. Suffice it to say that these are the blackest black that ever blacked and totally brutal.
Blue Dragons
I never got why blue dragons don't live under water. they get a burrow speed and live in the desert. Seems like a waste, and the only reason no one fixed it is tradition. All the dragons tell you what sort of treasure they like which is a nice touch, these ones are after sapphires (because blue) so enjoy that.
Green Dragon
Somehow these live in forests and hate elves. They have to be super cautious because Elves are generally the master race. A forest doesn't seem like the ideal place for a dragon, and it really isn't. Their poison breath works well, but really these are going to get annoyed by the cannopy if they try to fly. Their regional effects are pretty cool. The forest grows thicker and thorns, and rodents and birds spy for it.
Red Dragon
This is the big daddy, and potentially the toughest for in the book at CR 24. Basically it just goes into how they are dicks for the fun of it. They live in mountains, and volcanoes. A lot of fluff on dragons is basically unchanged and these really aren't that different.
White Dragon
It talks about how these are the least dangerous dragons out thtere, but due to their environment, and lairs I'd disagree. They can freeze stuff all over with their lairs, and make thin ice walls you fall through or drop freezing rain. I can see these being the most challenging in the list, because the others are basically "Find it and kill it" whereas this has a difficult and dangerous find it step.
Metallic Dragons
This whole concept is stupid, but the idea that these uber powerful dragons exist, and don't help people even though they "Seek to preserve and protect" makes them seem like total liars or incompetent. For some reason they also horde treasure and money instead of giving it to the poor, because for some reason thats a good thing to do. They worship Bahamut, who apparently spends most of his time wandering the material plane, so maybe its both. Liar and Dick. he sees what needs fixing, and the roving packs of gnolls, but decideds not to engage because (reasons). I get tradition dictates you include metallic dragons, but here is a way to do it and not be terrible. And I'm not even a designer.
"Legends speak of metallic or good aligned dragons that save the world whenever it needs it. Long lived elves might even claim to have seen one, but none have been seen in ages. Its said that 1 in 100 Draconic eggs is born Metallic. This metallic egg hatches, and a metallic dragon comes out. It is usually killed on site by its warry parent who knows the legend, but occasionally one gets away. When it does, it grows into a metallic dragon, compelled to act as an agent of good. It will attempt to keep its true nature hidden as long as possible, because once found, its dragon kin will seek its destruction". And throw in a chart that says Red have Gold, Blue have Brass, etc.
Brass Dragon
These guys are CG. They love conversation and might kidnap you to keep the conversation going. Enjoy that. It might even burry you up to your neck to continue the conversation. LOL Fun Times (Drink).
Bronze Dragon
These dicks pretend to be rats and pal sneak on your ship. If they find stuff they want they barter with you for it. If they like you they will fight in your war, but not always. Depends how much you pay them. They are LG.
Copper Dragon
"copper dragonsw are incorrigible pranksters" Oh good. They sound like Kender dragons, and it totally explains why my Dick DM constantly includes them as her DM penis NPCs. She doesn't understand why we hate kender either. Anyway, if you are a bard fuck you, because it will kidnap you and make you perform forever.
Gold Dragon
The counter part to Red Dragons, these guys sort of piss me off because they don't even live near red dragons. Reds live in mountains, but these live near idyllic lakes. Anyway, they eat gold, and it talks about how you are supposed to give gifts of gold for their help.
Silver Dragon
This is the friendliest dragon, and believes that living a moral life involves doing good deeds and ensuring ones actions cause no undeserved harm to other beings. They don't take it on themselves to root out evil. Those are two consecutive sentances. Anyway, they are LG and pretend to be humans so they can bang generations of a family.
Summary
basically this book makes me like dragons less. And I wasn't a huge fan before. Fuck this book. Drink a few times for the section.
Dragon Turtle
in the listing of needed monsters for this book, somehow this made the cut? This is bull shit. Its a CR 17 giant turtle that eats the rudder of boats and hordes their cargo. The artist did not get the scale reference because that thing is easily 50+ ft.
Drider
I never got how this was a curse. The hot goth chicks who piss lolth off get turned into giant spider-taurs and get bonus powers. Sure they lose their dick, but they get spider legs, and magic powers. Might be a solid trade. This really seems like one of those curses that should be given as a blessing or something. Anyway, they are CR 6, have 19 armor and 123HP, so they are solid. They get fey ancestry instead of being demons like would make sense if lolth is a demon. They get some shitty spells, and generally suck at offense, but you can give a variant to give them good spells. It doesn't increase their CR, but you can give some solid spells to them. So you should.
Dryad
Dryads are apparently specifically hot chicks who live in the woods and trick you into getting lost. Powerful fey somehow bind wood spirits (WTF is this, no stats anywhere. Drink) into trees to make Dryads. They are tied to a specific tree which sucks, but otherwise they are a solid CR 1 foe. They get entangle and Shillelagh for their club. They have tree stride, and can charm people.
Duegar
here is where we start talking about underdark slavers. Basically everything else in this book is an underdark slaver. Its a little repetitive. Anyway, these are a dumb monster and always have been, but they are also dumb in this. In this they are just dwarfier dwarves in every degree, but also can randomly make themselves giant. There is no explanation of why they can do this outside of "The underdark is saturated with strange magical power which the duergar absorbed over generations of imprisonment". So they were dwarves who spent too long underground. And now they can turn invisable and become giants. They are CR 1, and generally are pretty solid bruisers who don't need to worry about airborn foes being underground.
Last edited by Krusk on Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:25 am, edited 8 times in total.
Top

Krusk
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 601
  Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:56 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Krusk » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:20 am

Any idea why my post won't display?
I wrote a decently long entry, but tried only posting half and it still doesn't display. So I don't think its character count.
sloppy html will do it.
Last edited by Krusk on Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
Top

Lago PARANOIA
  Invincible Overlord
  Posts: 10555
  Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am

###

- Quote

Post by Lago PARANOIA » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:44 am

Do any of the monsters in this book have powers that help them with worldbuilding or anything? If they do, could you point out which ones have it?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

Top

Krusk
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 601
  Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:56 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Krusk » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:04 am

None of the ones so far, but it has been my intent to do so if they do appear.
Its really just the 4e paradime for monsters with some numbers filed off and things abstracted some.
Top

erik
  King
  Posts: 5847
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by erik » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:59 pm

Looks like not just numbers filed off but abilities filed down to the nubs.
I concur on fuck the house-pet dragons. Can nobody at WotC make a fantasy system with ginormous fucking creatures? Jeebus.
[edit: I do like your take on metallic dragons. I've oft been annoyed that there's all these giant "Good" draconic dicks not being heroic and shit. Even worse, they're stronger than their evil counterparts. What's the point of that shit?]
Last edited by erik on Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top

Whipstitch
  Prince
  Posts: 3657
  Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:23 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Whipstitch » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:13 am

It's a bummer that chain devils are typically drawn so lame given that they have a novel movement power and attack routine rather than the usual raft of largely unrelated spell-like abilities many demons get stuck with.
Also, I'm not surprised to see that they just threw up their hands and demoted chasme so far down the CR food chain. Chasme were always light in the hitpoint department and mostly made their bones by rocking 26 AC to go along with their 10 DR in order to push Joe Militia off the RNG and hose all his friends with a modest DC Sleep effect. Basically, chasme were statted up such that they could easily crush a village but still get slapped around by charging paladin, a niche that just doesn't really exist in bounded accuracy land.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
Top

Schleiermacher
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 665
  Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:39 am

###

- Quote

Post by Schleiermacher » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:05 am

> Basically, chasme were statted up such that they could easily crush a village but still get slapped around by charging paladin, a niche that just doesn't really exist in bounded accuracy land.

Sure it could. You said it yourself. High-end AC coupled with DR and/or fast healing and a large, low-impact area attack would crush millitia while being relatively ineffective against a hero. None of that is impossible under bounded accuracy, it just means the AC is 20 instead of 26 and the "low-impact area attack" could conceivably affect the hero and not just the chaff.
The monster design in 5e is shit, but that's not purely the fault of bounded accuracy.
Top

Whipstitch
  Prince
  Posts: 3657
  Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:23 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Whipstitch » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:40 am

Sure, you could do something like that, but it'd run rather counter to Mearls' stupid holy grail of making sure the lowbie monsters can contribute. They're too dumb to realize they're crowding out the very niche heroic fantasy is built upon.
bears fall, everyone dies
Top

OgreBattle
  King
  Posts: 6819
  Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

###

- Quote

Post by OgreBattle » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:40 am

Isn't Lolth a giant spider with a woman's face herself? Yet turning drow into a more Lolth like appearnce is called a curse...
btw this is how you make chain devils cool
Last edited by OgreBattle on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top

Wiseman
  Duke
  Posts: 1394
  Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:43 pm
  Location: That one place
  Contact:
  Contact Wiseman
  Website

###

- Quote

Post by Wiseman » Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:52 pm

I always though this image of a chain devil was cool.
Keys to the Contract: A crossover between Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Kingdom Hearts.

> RadiantPhoenix wrote:

> > TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".

> The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".

> hyzmarca wrote:Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.

Top

nockermensch
  Duke
  Posts: 1896
  Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:11 pm
  Location: Rio: the Janeiro

###

- Quote

Post by nockermensch » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:53 pm

> Wiseman wrote:I always though this image of a chain devil was cool.

Chain Devils probably started as Cenobite rip-offs, and IIRC even their other iconic ability of mimicking the face of somebody their victim loves was also taken from a Hellraiser movie.
They suffer the problem of being terror movie monsters (made to slaughter commoners 1 with impunity) having to face violent-prone, trained adventurers that react to piles of blood and gore by searching them for magical items.
@ @ Nockermensch

> Koumei wrote:After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.

> Mord wrote:Chromatic Wolves are massively under-CRed. Its "Dood to stone" spell-like is a TPK waiting to happen if you run into it before anyone in the party has Dance of Sack or Shield of Farts.

Top

Josh_Kablack
  King
  Posts: 5317
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: Online. duh

###

- Quote

Post by Josh_Kablack » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:51 pm

Oh, hey, we're posting D&D demon art now.
Bleys finally finished his illo
Sorry the vrock got scaled down in the finished product.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Top

John Magnum
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 826
  Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:49 am

###

- Quote

Post by John Magnum » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:58 pm

What's supposed to be the difference between the Aberration type and the Monstrosity type?
-JM
Top

nockermensch
  Duke
  Posts: 1896
  Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:11 pm
  Location: Rio: the Janeiro

###

- Quote

Post by nockermensch » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:24 pm

> John Magnum wrote:What's supposed to be the difference between the Aberration type and the Monstrosity type?

Aberrations are explicitly cthulhuesque monsters like mind flayers, beholders and such.
Monstrosity is the old "magical beast" category that also became the catch-all for monsters that don't fit other types. The gryphon is a monstrosity, IIRC.
@ @ Nockermensch

> Koumei wrote:After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.

> Mord wrote:Chromatic Wolves are massively under-CRed. Its "Dood to stone" spell-like is a TPK waiting to happen if you run into it before anyone in the party has Dance of Sack or Shield of Farts.

Top

Ravengm
  Knight
  Posts: 386
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Ravengm » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:13 pm

Given the similarity of the terms, it seems like "Monstrosity" was the wrong word to use. A cursory thesaurus romp doesn't find me anything particularly better, though.

> Random thing I saw on Facebook wrote:Just make sure to compare your results from Weapon Bracket Table and Elevator Load Composition (Dragon Magazine #12) to the Perfunctory Armor Glossary, Version 3.8 (Races of Minneapolis, pp. 183). Then use your result as input to the "DM Says Screw You" equation.

Top

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:26 pm

Monstrosity is a clear example of the whole typing system going to fuck. If Basilisks and Minotaurs have the same type, your types probably mean dick. And if Basilisks aren't the same type as Blink Dogs, I'm going to need a good explanation.
5e's creature types are worse than not having creature types. It's basically everything that was bad and stupid about creature categorization in 3rd edition and 2nd edition at the same time.
-Username17
Top

Whipstitch
  Prince
  Posts: 3657
  Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:23 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Whipstitch » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:53 pm

> nockermensch wrote:
> They suffer the problem of being terror movie monsters (made to slaughter commoners 1 with impunity) having to face violent-prone, trained adventurers that react to piles of blood and gore by searching them for magical items.

True enough, but there's room for that sort of critter at the levels where they traditionally come online. With few exceptions melee in D&D is kind of a shitty way to threaten multiple people at once compared to spell effects because even with crap like cleave, iterative and whirlwind attacks you still often get boned by reach, full actions or the inadequacy of the 5 foot step. Compared to many melee tactics the whole dancing chains shtick is relatively convenient way to spit out multiple attacks a round, which makes them a nice monster for skirmishes where you want NPC cannon fodder on both sides without Team Evil just dropping fireballs on the proceedings and calling it a day.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
Top

Josh_Kablack
  King
  Posts: 5317
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: Online. duh

###

- Quote

Post by Josh_Kablack » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:01 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:Monstrosity is a clear example of the whole typing system going to fuck. If Basilisks and Minotaurs have the same type, your types probably mean dick.
> -Username17

Bah. You get a minotaur when your queen crossbreeds with your prize bull. You get a basilisk when a cockarel hatches the egg of a toad. So they are clearly in the same mythic family of "impossible crossbreeds"
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Top

RobbyPants
  King
  Posts: 5201
  Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:11 pm

###

- Quote

Post by RobbyPants » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:07 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote: 5e's creature types are worse than not having creature types. It's basically everything that was bad and stupid about creature categorization in 3rd edition and 2nd edition at the same time.

I don't remember creature categorization in 2E. How'd they handle it, there?
I seem to remember creatures being called "undead" in their description, an that the term in-and-of-itself carried no weight. You had to find immunities in the monster description, or look at effect to see if they did anything special to undead.
Top

Lago PARANOIA
  Invincible Overlord
  Posts: 10555
  Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:00 am

###

- Quote

Post by Lago PARANOIA » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:33 pm

D&D creature typing sucks because, in terms of programming parlance, they use inheritance instead of composition. Instead of having a 'dragon' or an 'aberration' or an 'elemental' abstract class master type that all creatures inherit from and thereafter have subtypes sprinkled upon them, there should just be nothing but broadly used subtypes like ooze, humanoid, undead, social, alive, construct, mindless, fiend, fire-creature, etc. that adds and defines specific behavior. A creature is defined by one or more of these subtypes and then has special rules sprinkled atop of them. So a zombie, eligible only for creatures that were [alive], would be composed of [mindless] and [undead] typing rules and also be composed of any subtypes that didn't conflict (or were overridden by) with mindless or undead from its base monster. For special rules: all zombies are automatically slowed, attack and attempt to consume anything living up to two sizes smaller than itself or small-sized (whichever was smaller), and have small amounts of fast healing. And there's your zombie dogs and zombie fairies and zombie treants.
I mean, we still want zombies and vampires to not need anything to eat, be turned by priests, and healed by negative energy. But we still want to use critical hits on, use mind control magic on, and have intelligent conversations with vampires -- not true with zombies. 3E D&D's system required too much overriding to get working. And if someone fucked it up even a little bit, you got nonsense like vampires being almost impossible to kill. Not to mention that having all creatures inherit from a master type also introduced ridiculous subtype bloat like what happened in Pathfinder.
But not having monster types at all isn't necessarily an improvement either: 2E D&D's system required way too much special pleading and code reuse copypasta. It's an unnecessary waste of space.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

Top
Post Reply

- Print view

Display:
Sort by:
Direction:

295 posts

- Page 3 of 12
  - Jump to page:
- Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- …
- 12
- Next

Return to “In My Humble Opinion...”

Jump to

- Main
- ↳ About the Gaming Den
- ↳ In My Humble Opinion...
- ↳ I Gave the Mouse a Cookie...
- ↳ In The Trenches
- ↳ It's My Own Invention...
- ↳ MPSIMS