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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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Post by Kaelik » Wed May 26, 2010 3:02 pm

> Orion wrote:Your accusations that I am somehow taking my cues from Crissa or PL are misguided. I often post after them because I'm less quick to jump into the fray here, but I only post what I've been thinking silently all along. I'm not part of some clique with Crissa and PL. I actually can't stand Crissa and find Pl only intermittently lucid.

I'm not accusing you of taking cues. I'm accusing you of being on team take offense at every little thing. Which you are, because you are so pro calling people sexist that you think the person in the wrong is the person who was being accused of sexism incorrectly, and you don't think it's a big deal to call people sexist.
Because you think that saying the word trap is bad, but actively making false accusations is not a big deal.
I don't particularly like Zine either, and the US soldiers are racists thread was the thread were Zine decided he didn't hate me any more, because like everyone else, he was first introduced by me calling him an idiot.
But if you are going to advocate a "four people means you can't say a word" policy, I'm going to go find four people, and ask you if that counts, so you can recognize your stupidity.

> Orion wrote:but if your *defense* is claim to be an asshole... I don't know why you bother.

My defense is that using a non offensive word is not being an asshole or bigoted. My defense is that when four people get together and say "X offends me" that those four people are idiots, and the stupidest thing anyone could do is stop using a word because easily offended retards get upset.
Four people on this forum are upset by the fact that Frank Trollman talks about Shadowrun, should he stop doing that?
Four people on this forum are upset that you guys keep taking offense to everything.
I personally am upset that people keep using the pronoun "he" to refer to me after I specifically asked them not to. But I'm also not going to throw a shit fit about it and demand that people not be allowed to call me he, because if I did I would be setting the precedent for stopping Frank from talking about Shadowrun.
Because Censorship is fucking bad, and it's bad when it's self censorship, and it's bad when you don't use non offensive words because some people told you they are offended by their use, because it makes it easier to just take offense everytime an important issue comes up, like you know, when homophobes take offense at the subject of gay marriage being brought up.

> Orion wrote:who has prejudice in their soul.

Please tell me that was done on purpose to piss me off. I would respect you so much more than options a and b, you are an idiot, or it's just an idiom you happened to use.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Wed May 26, 2010 3:34 pm

Actually it was used sarcastically to emphasize how much I don't care. I don't believe in a soul, so OF COURSE I don't believe what people have in their soul.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed May 26, 2010 5:17 pm

> Orion wrote:The first time I ever heard the word trap to refer to a transvestite or transsexual was when Roy used it as a personal attack on Cielingcat. Consequently, people who use it remind me of Roy. If you want my respect, you won't use it.

See that? That's a reasonable argument. The facts are true, the connections between the facts and the conclusions are logical, and the final ultimatum is one that you are entirely capable of carrying out. If someone had said that at the beginning, I wouldn't have taken issue with it. You are fine to hold that as a position and to stick to it. I won't try to argue you out of it because it is a well reasoned position.
As for me? The first time I heard it used in that context was by a transwoman confiding that she was going to transition. So to me it will never be a word that is inherently pejorative. We have different experiences, and lacking time travel, it's basically impossible for either one of us to modify the formative experiences of the other. Out gut reaction to words will always be different.
But recall, that's not the argument that Crissa made. She made a series of arguments that are bad arguments. Both because they do not follow logically from the facts presented, and because most of the "facts" are not even true. Basically, she is claiming that the word "trap" like the word "tunk" is socially unacceptable in all circumstances, and that's just factually not true. Let's go to the list:

- Transpeople get murdered sometimes!
  This is completely fucking irrelevant. The word "trap" was coined in this context in the last couple of years, and by a group of people not known for violent queer bashing escapades. There is no connection between this word and incidents of violence against the transgendered.
- The word Trap has a negative connotation!
  How would you know? The word "Gay" has a negative connotation when used by all kinds of people. Done a statistical comparison? Got any evidence at all?
- The inventors of the word Trap are white males!
  How would you know that? They are anonymous. On a forum that is not exclusive to people of any ethnicity, sex, or gender. And even if it was true, which you have zero evidence for, so what? The inventors of the word "homosexual" were probably white males, does that make that word badwrong? What the fuck?
- You aren't a member of a sexual preference minority and don't get a say in terminology!
  First off, I reject the idea that only people within a group get to use language to describe that group. That's wrong on many levels. But even if we accepted it, which we do not, the fact is that some of the people she is attacking are members of sexual preference minorities, negating her entire argument!

It's fine for you to not like the word "Trap." It's fine for you to not like people who use the word "Trap." But it's not OK to make shitty arguments like Crissa has been doing. She's just been recycling the old reactionary standards of "Think Of The Children" and "Speaking As A Mother..." and both of those arguments are fucking terrible.
The fact is, Crissa has no expertise that would make her more capable of judging the intent or social acceptability of 4chan memes than Prak does; and there are no objective facts that bolster her case in any way, shape, or form. Crissa is wrong. Historically, sociologically, philosophically, and strategically wrong.
But sure, if you just want to tell us that you react negatively to a specific word because it was used in your presence in a specific context negatively, then be my guest. That's a totally reasonable position to have.
-Username17
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Roy
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Post by Roy » Wed May 26, 2010 5:37 pm

So I was just thinking to myself that...
And then I read this.

> Orion wrote:Frank, the history of the word trap notwithstanding, a fairly substantial number of us-- Cielingcat, Crissa, and myself, have a strong negative reaction to it. It has a history of being used as a slur ON THIS BOARD when Roy flipped out on Cielingcat, which is more relevant as far as I'm concerned than its origins on 4Chan.

Get your fucking story straight.
It went something like this.
Me, in a don't ask, don't tell thread: Ya know, I really don't see what the problem is. Sexual orientation is really none of anyone else's business besides those you are having sexual intercourse with regardless of what that sexual orientation actually is.
Not exact words, but that was the general idea. Not attacking anyone, just wanting to know what the fucking problem was.
At which point ceiling cat freaked the fuck out and angrily attacked me, and a bunch of retards showed up to add nothing more than 'hurk durk Roy is trolling'. Except I wasn't. Because apparently, if ceiling cat can't scream it from the rooftops, it's not tolerated at all. And nothing, not calm words, and not saying that someone screaming 'I AM STRAIGHT!' would be just as fucking obnoxious made ceiling cat stop insisting that I was 'anti gay' or 'bigoted' or whatthefuckever or the retard squad from spamming the same lying drivel.
In actuality I am not anti gay. I am however anti dumbfuck.
So yeah, ceiling cat was stupid and I blasted ceiling cat for being stupid. This is the mother fucking Gaming Den, since when is this sort of behavior new or surprising?
And guess what? To someone who feels the need to scream their preferences in order to express them at all, trap is indeed an insult whereas as Frank and others have demonstrated the more reasonable types take it in stride, or even call themselves traps.
More to the point however once I gave ceiling cat a good blasting for being an idiot guess what? I left it the fuck alone, only bringing it up again when someone else broaches the subject.
So it isn't even like I've been greeting ceiling cat as 'Hi Trap.' or anything of that nature. It's not a persistent or long term thing.
And the best part of it is the same people that insist that I was such a terrible person for doing that are the ones that won't let it fucking die already.
So in short, Orion is a troll. Not that this surprises anyone either.

> Draco_Argentum wrote:

> > Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.

> Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?

> Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.

> Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.

> Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.

Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Ravyn Dawnbringer
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Post by Ravyn Dawnbringer » Wed May 26, 2010 6:18 pm

I am a trap. Feel free to call me as such.

> God of Awesome wrote: This is no different then the fact that my soul is that of a majestic nuclear space whale.

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Vnonymous
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Post by Vnonymous » Wed May 26, 2010 6:35 pm

"straight white male" is a pretty bad descriptor for 4channers. Most of the ones I know don't fit that description at all.
Secondly, judging whether or not something should be said based on offence is moronic.
Why?
Because people can be offended by anything. There's pretty much nothing you can say that someone, somewhere, doesn't find offensive.
And finally, people don't have a right to not be offended. This one should be pretty self explanatory.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Wed May 26, 2010 6:50 pm

For what it's worth, I thought the idea of a herm PC and an NPC with "Trap Sense" was pretty funny actually.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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Post by Kaelik » Wed May 26, 2010 6:55 pm

> Vnonymous wrote:And finally, people don't have a right to not be offended. This one should be pretty self explanatory.

This.
I didn't express it well, but part of my problem with any offense bullshit is that it's specifically offensive to some peoples religion to be gay at all, so any standard relating to not doing something because some one is offended is going to result in not being gay, which of course, makes no goddam sense and is fucking terrible, so please stop using offense as your criterion.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Wed May 26, 2010 7:13 pm

I think there is verifiable difference between being offended at actions someone is carrying out that do not in any way involve you, and being offended at terms used to describe you. That is something to bear in mind. You can't lump a negative reaction to derogatory language in with homophobic prejudice.
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Wed May 26, 2010 7:16 pm

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:For what it's worth, I thought the idea of a herm PC and an NPC with "Trap Sense" was pretty funny actually.

Yeah it really was pretty hilarious.
I honestly can't side with Crissa and the PC patrol because it eliminates too many funny jokes.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Wed May 26, 2010 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Wed May 26, 2010 7:21 pm

Well, give the PC patrol some credit. When the PC movement started, there were race riots and shit. (Despite popular belief, Political Correctness started in the 70's, not the 90's. And it was because the 70s was a shitty time and a lot of people were ready to do things the feral way because the civilized way wasn't working at all.)
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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Post by Kaelik » Wed May 26, 2010 7:30 pm

> Red_Rob wrote:I think there is verifiable difference between being offended at actions someone is carrying out that do not in any way involve you, and being offended at terms used to describe you. That is something to bear in mind. You can't lump a negative reaction to derogatory language in with homophobic prejudice.

There are at least two of them.
One difference is that actions are things we do legislate about, IE don't rape little boys, and words are something we don't legislate about because words don't hurt. But that doesn't even matter because:
1) trap was used to describe hermaphrodites, which neither Ceiling Cat nor Crissa is. So it was actually words not being used to describe anyone who got offended.
2) Replace "being gay" with "talking about being gay in front of me/my children/in public" and your distinction goes away.
"I'm offended" is how religions have been dealing with criticism for centuries.
Phil Donahue is offended that people are getting upset about child rape and talking about the Catholic Church.
I don't care that he's offended. People don't have to stop saying things because you are offended.
A few days ago was Draw Mohammed Day, which exists only because Muslims are offended by visual depictions of their prophet. It exists to celebrate free speech, because some people think that is important.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Wed May 26, 2010 7:44 pm

That's not quite what i meant. It is not okay for me to say "Please don't talk about gay people when I am around because that offends me". I am being an ass. It is okay for me to say "Please don't refer to gay people as "queers" when I am around as I am gay and I feel this demeans me". If you continue to use the word queers you are being an ass.
And yes, I understand Crissa was referring to "trap" and she isn't a transexual, so in this specific case that wasn't happening. But you were taking the position that noone ever has the right to take offence at slurs, which I think is the wrong view to take.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Wed May 26, 2010 7:44 pm

> Kaelik wrote:A few days ago was Draw Mohammed Day, which exists only because Muslims are offended by visual depictions of their prophet. It exists to celebrate free speech, because some people think that is important.

The dumbass cartoonist who started it tried to take it back.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Wed May 26, 2010 7:48 pm

> Maj wrote:

> > Kaelik wrote:A few days ago was Draw Mohammed Day, which exists only because Muslims are offended by visual depictions of their prophet. It exists to celebrate free speech, because some people think that is important.

> The dumbass cartoonist who started it tried to take it back.

Probably due to the fact that he didn't want to die. Everyone has their breaking point, and most people won't defend anything to their own deaths. There are exceptions, of course. In most people, self-preservation will trump all other morals and ethics.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Wed May 26, 2010 8:36 pm

> Meikle641 wrote:

> > virgileso wrote:Man, I wish I was more of a jerk, because that way I could find this thread hysterical rather than kind of uncomfortable with some of the intensity.

> Well, I know I've found the saga amusing to varying degrees.

I'm still amused and amazed that this whole thing started because I found something in D&D amusing.
I mean, Crissa could have just said "that's stupid" and left it there, but when she said it was offensive... then everyone was like "wtf?"
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erik
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Post by erik » Wed May 26, 2010 8:41 pm

Hell, my self-preservation breaking point is a lot thinner. I often don't speak out about stuff if the likely result is merely annoyance to myself.
Most of this thread has been good stuff, except the points where people rage exited over stuff said... on the internet. *sigh*
Granted leaving a forum is also not that big a deal and if people are getting upset then maybe it's a good thing for them too. Sometimes I have left for months at a time because of a glut of content that does not interest me (4e or other games I won't be playing) or because didn't have the time to keep up on threads that did interest me. I will always come back though. I've been here for years and this is still my favorite forum.
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Wed May 26, 2010 9:37 pm

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote: Probably due to the fact that he didn't want to die. Everyone has their breaking point, and most people won't defend anything to their own deaths. There are exceptions, of course. In most people, self-preservation will trump all other morals and ethics.

Yeah, and that's generally why Islamist extremists are viewed as "the bad guys". Pretty much whenever you adopt a policy of "Do something we don't like and we'll kill you", you reach a position of religious fanaticism that many people will be rightfully scared of.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Wed May 26, 2010 9:46 pm

Sigh.
*Hypothetical* people can and will be offended by everything. Given any sentence there exists at least one person who finds it offensive.
The lesson we learn from this is that *attempting to avoid giving offense to any and all possible readers* is a fool's errand.
That's a very specific lesson. It doesn't mean we should be as offensive as we please, it means that we need to set more reasonable standards of agreeability.
Any actual community will have a finite number of members who will be offended by a finite number of words and expressions. In most communities of relatively small size, it really is possible and worthwhile to choose expressions that don't offend the members of that community. There are homosexual men who calls themselves "gay," there are homosexual men who call themselves "[EDITED]" and there are homosexual men who call themselves "queers." None of them are wrong to do so. However, a given subcommunity, such as a message board, will typically evolve a set of common standards of language. If you barge into a board that uses "gays" and start talking about "queers" you are behaving badly and you should feel bad.
To put it another way: Every written work is written for an *audience*. You write a piece with the idea that it will be received by some specific subset of the people in the world, and in most cases using language that offends your audience is counter-productive. Now, the "audience" of a piece is different from the set of people who actually read the piece. No one calls Dan Brown a bad writer calls JK Rowling a bad writer, or a bad person, because her books offend Evangelicals; she wasn't writing FOR Evangelicals and was under no obligation to please them.
Similarly, Kaelik, you and every other poster has to define a set of people they respect. If, say, Tzor were offended by the way I talk about Judean mythology, I would laugh in his face because his good opinion means nothing to me. It's true that you DO have to limit the sphere of people whose preferences you're willing to accommodate.
But, every person who sore spots you willingly push is someone you have explicitly excluded from your audience. They will tend to be personally cross with you and they are right to do so. It should not be surprising that you are taken to task by people whose preferences you have explicitly ignore,d nor that they would attempt to drive you out in order to preserve a community where they can participate in the discussion.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed May 26, 2010 9:47 pm

How would Frank know if I was or wasn't 'part of said minority'? He's never been in my pants.
I said a statement was offensive. That should be the end of it. Instead we get a huge diatribe about how it isn't offensive. That's the opposite of respectful.
You're not defending free speech - you're defending the ability to brush off people as people.
Why would you even take the position that acting bigoted or continuing hateful stereotypes that affect real people is not bigotry? Then what is?
Frank's argument here is just as homophobic as Rand Paul's arguments are racist. There's no room here for one or the other; this is one thing that Frank has been continually hypocritical on.
I wasn't even going to comment further; it's quite clear that people know my position on this issue. But Frank had to go and claim propriety on who is and isn't transgendered. And the basic answer is: He can't know. Which is at the root of why this use of the word trap is so insulting.
-Crissa
PS: Pictures. While there are females and you can't tell sexuality from photos, you could read the news articles about it. Upper class white boys make up the majority of this pool - it shouldn't be a surprise, or anything: Upper middle class white boys make up the majority of 'people who have computers' and 'people shouting on the internet', even with six billion some not-white-boys on the planet.
Last edited by Crissa on Wed May 26, 2010 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Surgo
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Post by Surgo » Wed May 26, 2010 9:47 pm

> Kaelik wrote:A few days ago was Draw Mohammed Day, which exists only because Muslims are offended by visual depictions of their prophet. It exists to celebrate free speech, because some people think that is important.

I think there's an important distinction to make here -- Draw Muhammed Day, as far as I'm aware, wasn't because Muslims were offended by it. It was because some Muslims were literally murderous because of it.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Wed May 26, 2010 9:49 pm

Also, I would hope that no one is going and drawing Muhammed *on Muslim message boards*. That would be rude.
Last edited by Orion on Wed May 26, 2010 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Wed May 26, 2010 10:03 pm

> Crissa wrote: Frank's argument here is just as homophobic as Rand Paul's arguments are racist.

Crissa, you've officially descended to the level of self-parody. Please stop.
There are better, saner ways to try to change people's behavior.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed May 26, 2010 10:08 pm

Look, Rand Paul isn't on the record has having actually thought lower of people for their skin. He has always said the motive behind Civil Rights is good.
And yet Frank, himself, says Rand Paul is racist, because Rand Paul chooses the same allies and arguments of those who are racist.
Here Frank is doing the same, but upholding someone's right to be homophobic. Not because he's part of the group. He says he's got non-straight friends (and he does). But his argument could be straight swap for Rand Paul upholding the right to be racist.
Where's the difference?
-Crissa
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Wed May 26, 2010 10:09 pm

> Maj wrote:

> > Kaelik wrote:A few days ago was Draw Mohammed Day, which exists only because Muslims are offended by visual depictions of their prophet. It exists to celebrate free speech, because some people think that is important.

> The dumbass cartoonist who started it tried to take it back.

She started it on a lark, not as a political statement. It was like something out of Life of Brian.
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