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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:44 am

For those of you who work out, what's the best (in terms of price and efficiency and space and whatnot) home-exercise machine that will work your core?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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erik
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Post by erik » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:25 pm

Does it have to be a machine? Would a big yoga ball count?
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:38 pm

I'm sorry, I'm looking for something that does strength training. It doesn't have to be all fancy and use a lot of pulleys and weights and shit (the Gazelle doesn't and I freaking love this thing) so if a yoga ball or something similar is good for strength training then I'll take it.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:19 pm

Not sure about yoga balls, but you could get a medicine ball-
It's basically a weighted rubber ball that there are a lot of exercises developed around.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:30 pm

Aside from exercise balls there's no piece of core specific equipment out there that I'd really recommend. Your core is there to stabilize things, so when you work out your core you don't stick to the same movement all the time like a 1970s bodybuilder obsessively doing bicep curls. You want to mix things up a bit, which is why google will show you a ridiculous number of plank variations if you ask it.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
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erik
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Post by erik » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:25 pm

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-livin ... s-20076330
I just took the first google for result. I knew a part time sports therapist who raved about Swiss Balls for core muscles.
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Blasted
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Post by Blasted » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:53 am

Kettle bells are big right now. I heard Kettlebell Simple & Sinister recommended the other day. It's a low equipment option.

> King Francis I's Mother said wrote:The love between the kings was not just of the beard, but of the heart

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:51 pm

I'm very intrigued by Kettlebells and like that the most out of all of the recommended options.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Dean
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Post by Dean » Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:05 am

I know you already said it's for strength training but I want to mention here, as I do in all core building conversations, that if this is for abs you don't get abs by working out.
If you want abs then all the kettle bells and ab flexxors and sit ups in the world won't help you. If you're looking for abs don't buy any exercise equipment and look solely at modifications to diet.

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:57 am

Anecdotally, I had a six pack for about a year. I drank a ton of soda, ate almost nothing but chicken tenderloins cooked on an electric grill, and got almost zero exercise. Then, I started drinking less soda, mixing relatively healthy meals that weren't all white meat with shitty fast food, and exercising (nothing but cardio). I grew enough of a belly that while still being a scrawny little fucker you could no longer see my abs (or my ribs). Since then, I've cut the soda entirely, cut the takeout almost entirely but kept the varied diet, and exercise a teeny bit less. I am not back to looking like a mildly ripped anorexic.
So if I wanted that six pack back, my first guess would be to cut my fat intake as close to zero as humanly possible by replacing almost all of my meals with white meat chicken cooked in nothing at all. That doesn't sound all that healthy or appealling, but I imagine it would work.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:24 am

I'm not really a believer in the diet modification=abs thing unless by diet modification you mean "run a calorie deficit at some point during your life." And exercise can certainly be part of that.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:41 am

I don't really want abs, though. I mean, a six-pack would be boss as fuck, but since I see myself indefinitely wearing suits and shit what I really want are some shoulders, a chest, and some non-embarrassing triceps and biceps.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:13 am

I'm pretty sure Dean does mean "weight loss" by diet modification. And I'm very sure that a diet which includes foods other than straight white meat protein (especially fast food) is going to have a lot more calories in it than just the diet of straight white meat protein. You'd have to eat a lot of chicken to close that gap.
The point (well, I guess I can't speak for Dean) is that your stomach isn't like the rest of your body. You can add definition to your arms without reducing your net calorie intake at all, but on the flip side you can add definition to your abs almost solely by reducing your net calorie intake. Subcutaneous fat has a much bigger role in the shape of your stomach than the shape of your arms, and muscle building exercises tend to be fairly shit at burning calories. Healthy eating and cardio are the best ways to get rid of fat.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:26 am

I don't count Dean among the dumber Denizens, so what you're saying is likely a safe bet, but the thing is that there's enough voodoo out there being passed along as solid advice in the world that I felt like clarifying anyway.
As far as the abs vs arms thing goes, the easiest way to explain why it is so much harder to get a six pack than it is to have "arm definition" is to point out that with abs you're trying to reveal sections of a paired muscle that just happens to be partially segmented with some connective tissue, whereas with arms you can get what many people would call "definition" just by having biceps that are distinguishable from neighboring muscles.
bears fall, everyone dies
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Nachtigallerator
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Post by Nachtigallerator » Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:40 pm

> RobbyPants wrote:I've had this odd issue with my lower back for about two months that doesn't seem to be going away.
> I feel it on or near my spine somewhere between the bottom third and half of my back. It might be best described as "discomfort" and is in no way painful. I only feel it when my back is somewhat bent and I am leaning it against something (typically a chair). Sometimes, the best way to describe it is like it feels like my shirt is bunched up in the area or that I'm otherwise leaning on something.
> I can't physically feel anything through the skin when I touch my back. It isn't painful when I touch the area in question. I don't seem to notice it in any way when doing exercise or otherwise moving about.
> Any idea what this might be and what type of doctor I should contact?

This could potentially be a lot of things, from internal organs to something with the spine or spinal canal. I'm leaning towards the latter at the moment, but it's not typical for anything I know off the top of my head, so start with a generalist who can check on your abdomen as well as do a neurological exam.
Or wait for an actual doctor (Frank) to weigh in.
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:42 pm

> DSMatticus wrote:So if I wanted that six pack back, my first guess would be to cut my fat intake as close to zero as humanly possible by replacing almost all of my meals with white meat chicken cooked in nothing at all. That doesn't sound all that healthy or appealling, but I imagine it would work.

It wouldn't be healthy but six pack abs aren't a sign of health. A six pack is a sign of one thing only which is a body fat percentage under approximately 10%. You can be a very healthy and muscular person with six pack abs or you can just be an incredibly skinny person and you'll have six pack abs
This man is not strong
The way you get a six pack is by cutting your body fat percentage down. You do that by running a calorie deficit which cardio exercise can help with but all the cardio in the world won't take an average american diet into ab-town. If you wan't abs you have to change your diet, it's an absolute fact of bodybuilding. I didn't just say "weight loss" because that brings starvation diets to most peoples minds and that's not healthy and not what I mean. When I'm bodybuilding (a phrase I apologize for using over the internet) I eat much more than usual but less calories. A twix bar is 270 calories which is more than 2 full cans of mixed vegetables and one of those leaves me full and the other doesn't.

> Whipstitch wrote:I don't count Dean among the dumber Denizens, so what you're saying is likely a safe bet, but the thing is that there's enough voodoo out there being passed along as solid advice in the world that I felt like clarifying anyway.

Thank you, You're correct about the level of bullshit surrounding weight loss advice. It is an entire industry run on bullshit because the facts of weight loss are so simple that the moment someone understands them you can't ever sell to them again. The best, the absolute BEST resource for this in the world IMO is Scooby. Scooby is an engineer and bodybuilder who's website on bodybuilding and particularly on nutrition is the best in the world. Scooby really changed my life. His videos and site not only give you the tools to make the changes you want but also to understand how those things occur biologically. It's like a safeguard against all future bullshit. I don't want to be the guy who posts selfies on the Den but he's really made a huge change in my physical appearance and I can't recommend him highly enough.

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:I don't really want abs, though. I mean, a six-pack would be boss as fuck, but since I see myself indefinitely wearing suits and shit what I really want are some shoulders, a chest, and some non-embarrassing triceps and biceps.

I agree with this entirely. If I could go back and change my workout it would be to focus a lot more on traps and shoulders. My arms and chest ended up well but I focused a lot on lats and abs and while those are good for movement they aren't what other people care about. I've been thinking about this a lot and if I were to rank the muscle groups based on the order in which they affect your PERCIEVED fitness level it would be
1: Traps and Shoulders
2: Arms
3: Chest
4: Abs.
If I were just getting started on working out I would focus primarily on traps and shoulders, then on biceps and triceps, then on chest. If you also work on your diet you can get abs for free without doing a single crunch.

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:38 pm

Yeah, functional strength and being able to impress everyone at the beach can often be two different things. For example, in my time on the internet I've unfortunately had to bear witness to a few supremely embarrassing threads containing people who were ginning up vaguely racist theories as to how Cain Velasquez manages to stay competitive in UFC despite his "poor genetics and body type." It was super dumb because while Cain Velasquez is not shredded or possessed of a narrow"V" body shape, he does have a big ass, serious obliques and tree trunk legs, which counts for an awful lot when your job involves dumping people right on their asses.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
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Shiritai
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Post by Shiritai » Thu Mar 12, 2015 11:35 pm

> Dean wrote: Thank you, You're correct about the level of bullshit surrounding weight loss advice. It is an entire industry run on bullshit because the facts of weight loss are so simple that the moment someone understands them you can't ever sell to them again. The best, the absolute BEST resource for this in the world IMO is Scooby. Scooby is an engineer and bodybuilder who's website on bodybuilding and particularly on nutrition is the best in the world. Scooby really changed my life. His videos and site not only give you the tools to make the changes you want but also to understand how those things occur biologically. It's like a safeguard against all future bullshit. I don't want to be the guy who posts selfies on the Den but he's really made a huge change in my physical appearance and I can't recommend him highly enough.

Yeah, speaking of bullshit... that dude Scooby may know his exercise, but his nutrition knowledge is iffy, and his science is crap. He recommends avoiding GMOs for literally no reason, thinks organic products don't use pesticides, and wonders if the weight-loss due to intermittent fasting might be due to the placebo effect.
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:39 am

His slightly hippieish notion that what is natural is good is known to me. He doesn't like GMO's or aspartame and there's some stuff like that scattered around his site. I shrug that stuff off. What really mattered to me was that his YouTube nutrition series taught me how dieting actually works, how calories work, how to eat more and lose weight, and how to construct a protein rich low calorie intake to get muscular and thin simultaneously.
I don't know the placebo effect thing. That seems out of character

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:56 am

Since we're on the topic of weight loss etc, figure I'll toss out a question myself-
While my parents don't accept it, I have told them I'm transgender, so in my mind they have no right to complain when I start transitioning (though they will), so rather than waiting till I move out (whenever that is) I'm going to start that process now.
My first step to that is losing weight, and to that end I've started watching my calories again and started going to the gym. I haven't talked to a trainer because 1- money and 2- trans isn't really mainstream yet. So, currently, my exercise routine is 20-25 minutes on the treadmill and 3 sets of 15 reps of dumbell pullovers and chest flyes.
My overall goal is to just slim down. I don't want massive pecs or biceps or anything, because the end goal is for it to be easier for me to buy more feminine clothing and pull it off.
Any suggestions for workouts?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:07 am

If the goal is just to burn some extra calories rather than meeting a specific performance goal I would concentrate mostly on avoiding boredom and trying new things. Some people really get off on being goal oriented and shattering personal bests but if that's not you then I wouldn't begrudge you for bouncing between classes and sports until you find something that just hits you as fun for whatever reason.
bears fall, everyone dies
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:32 am

Well, I'm cool with just doing treadmill for basic calorie burning, since I can bring my nook and do the reading I've been meaning to do for ages, or read posts on here when there's something lengthy and interesting like a review.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:24 am

That's fine, but if you want to get more out of each session you should look for activities you like or at least tolerate doing all on their own. You end up more mindful of the effort you're putting in that way and will typically end up putting more work in than people who're multi-tasking.
bears fall, everyone dies
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:46 am

> Prak wrote:My overall goal is to just slim down. I don't want massive pecs or biceps or anything

I always find it hilarious when people say that, girls in particular say it all the time. It makes the assumption that people just accidentally stumble into being freakishly muscular without years of hard work and painstakingly slow progress. No one in the history of ever has gone to the gym and accidentally gotten too muscular. Fitness ads lie to you like crazy about how much muscle people can put on by a factor of like....3000%. Seriously I see stuff regularly about some celebrity or another putting on 38lbs of muscle in 3 months for a role and that's so far past possible it's surpassed parody and become a big fish style tall tale.
If you work out extremely hard for a year and have good diet, nutrition, and exercise you can put on 1lb of muscle a month for about 12lbs total. The best athletes with the best genetics on the best steroids in the world can't add muscle the way hollywood tells you anyone can. You will never accidentally get huge.
If your goal is weight loss I have amazing news for you, that's totally easy. Weight loss is insanely easy compared to muscle gain. If you're going to the gym already that's awesome but you could lose weight easily without ever stepping inside a gym.
I was going to type a big long thing about dieting in a healthy effective manner for life but everything I'm going to say could be said better by Scooby so I'm just gonna link his fat loss playlist. Any video you watch there will make weight loss easier, more effective, and less strenuous than before. I lost about 25lbs really easily with the changes I made to my diet from Scooby's advice. Slimming down and staying down for years is totally doable without any of the cheats or voodoo TV wants to sell you.

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Fri Mar 13, 2015 5:53 am

It's not that i think people accidentally gain giant hulk muscles, it's that if i go to a trainer, there's a good chance they'll look at my propensity for facial hair and lack of chest mounted person nurturers and think i want to gain a traditionally attractive masculine build.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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