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## Any Spycraft Players out there?

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ludomastro
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### Any Spycraft Players out there?

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Post by ludomastro » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:44 pm

I did a search on Spycraft and only came up with it being mentioned in other threads. I own the core book; however, my current game group is on hiatus due to work and family situations so I haven't had the pleasure of playtesting it yet.
Any thought from the denizens of the Den?
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Hey_I_Can_Chan
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Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:18 am

I think that would just be me.
Which edition'd you get?
The game's about as solid as d20 can get without things like Frank and K's radical alterations. Every origin is useful, every class is useful, prestige classes don't hump you, the skill system blows away every other d20 iteration ever, by giving out feats like candy and making them meaningful feats are hard choices that matter, combat's interesting, and gear is balanced.
My players' only problem with it is the gear system, which can now be modified by The Big Score. My only problem is that my games tend toward the more slow-paced, serial kind of games that make mission design a pain in the ass.
In other words, one down and one to go for the perfect d20 system.
Well, that, and the publication of FantasyCraft.
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:27 am

What are the main balance flaws of spycraft?
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Hey_I_Can_Chan
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Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:12 am

Thing is, there aren't many.
In most systems, one can point to, like, the druid and say, "Dude, why would anyone play anything else?" But with Spycraft, all classes are built using the same formula, and it's a solid one that gives you your top-tier ability at level 14 so there are actually levels in which you get to play with it.
During playtest, my buddies and I broke a couple of things (although there's still no restriction on riding not-so-big vehicles indoors), but they were fixed either by the first printing or--worst case--by the second printing.
Since the second printing, all the publishers have really had to do is clarify more than errata. And that's with a 500-page document.
I mean, really, even the bad guys scale to the heroes.
If there's a weakness to Spycraft it's that they can't get the stuff out the door fast enough to satisfy my demands. I'm gonna use a modified Frank & K D&D ruleset for my upcoming fantasy game 'cause the much-hyped FantasyCraft won't be out when the game's set to start.
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ludomastro
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Post by ludomastro » Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:58 am

@ Hey I Can Chan
Good to see that they are real people (or at least an AI that can pass a turing test) who have played Spycraft.
To answer your question: Spycraft2.0.
I have read the book from cover to cover once and have re-read the combat, gear, and GC chapters several times each.
I'm familiar with Frank from Dumpshock (Shadowrun site) but haven't met K yet. Frank's alterations tend to be major overhauls rather than tweaks but they are always thought through and normally tend to improve the game. (Although, they sometimes take the game in a direction I don't like - but hey, Frank, doesn't force them down my throat either.)
Any on-line sites that run Spycraft2.0 games? I would love to get some actually experience before introducing the game to my group.
@ RandomCasualty2
From a theoretical POV, none that I can see; however, without the playtest experience, I will default to Hey I Can Chan.
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Amra
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Post by Amra » Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:25 pm

Hmph. This thread has prompted me to do a bit of reading around and it very much looks like Spycraft is worth checking out. I just wish there was a straightforward way to make it work with a fantasy setting *sigh*
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Hey_I_Can_Chan
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Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan » Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:09 pm

Seriously, with the RAW, you can almost do fantasy. The one spellcasting class that's been released (an evoker variant) showed that the spellcasting classes wouldn't overshadow the martial classes (or even the scholarly classes!). When you can pick your weapon proficiencies (even ifyou've only two), and you choose "sword" and "bow," you're pretty much good to go for the first 5 levels.
After that it becomes a process of using your own class features to further the adventure. And that's really the beauty of Spycraft. I read the playtest results of the Pathfinder adventure in that other thread and cringed. The characters sucked, their tactics sucked, and everyone paled in comparison to what four fucking soldiers could do to those baddies were they using Spycraft.
Spycraft works with fantasy gaming now if you don't mind your players not being able to cast spells and be weird races. Hell, you can pay the couple of bucks and get the Classic Fantasy races PDF if you want those, which are seriously kick ass--but there's still solid reasons to be human, too.
My Spycraft-powered BtVS game resumes tomorrow. I've two players, and they were give every option available. Players went over every option hard, and they went with two humans. One has superpowers from the Shadowforce Archer conversion, but other just stabs people in the face with a knife really hard. And they're even in usefulness.
The game's that good.
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Amra
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Post by Amra » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:33 pm

> Hey_I_Can_Chan wrote:I read the playtest results of the Pathfinder adventure in that other thread and cringed. The characters sucked, their tactics sucked, and everyone paled in comparison to what four fucking soldiers could do to those baddies were they using Spycraft.

Not to decry one single thing you said about the brilliance of Spycraft, but that's seriously not a fair basis for comparison! The players in that "playtest" were complete and utter muppets, every single one. Just from what we know for sure about their characters' abilities, they should have taken that encounter to bits even though their characters sucked horribly.
The entire exercise was a double fistful of stupid topped off with a light sprinkling of fail, with dribbling-fool fries to follow.
Back on topic, however, Spycraft does sound great and it's something I'd consider trying to persuade my D&D-only group to play if there's already fantasy material available for it. It'd save me the effort I'm currently going through to make the bits of D&D that Frank and K didn't touch actually work.
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Hey_I_Can_Chan
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Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:43 pm

There's nothing stopping you from doing the time-honored hurl-them-into-the-fantasy-world schtick of every hack fantasy author. Start in modern day, and then send the PCs off to fantasyland when FantasyCraft comes out. Martial arts and melee fighting kick ass in Spycraft anyway, so just make sure any gun monkeys have feats that can be used with bows, too (as most can).
Really, unlike d20 Modern, the Spycraft PCs will be able to hold their own in that world just fine.
And, yeah, I know the comparison is unfair as that adventuring part was totally made of sorrow, but without any more recent "playtest" experiences on the board, I didn't know what else to compare it to.
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:13 pm

How's the lethality level in SpyCraft, is it rocket launcher tag, padded sumo, or what?
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Hey_I_Can_Chan
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Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:49 pm

How lethal do you want it?
Seriously.
When you're setting up your Spycraft campaign you can apply what are called campaign qualities to it, which can have a radical effect on game play.
In the default game, it works off of the Vitality/Wound Point idea from the old WotC Star Wars iteration, but done better and right, so don't tune out!
At level 1 you have maximum Vitality as determined by your class HD and gain high-average (or roll if you're stupid) Vitality every level. You have Wounds Points (WP) equal to your Con.
Attacks do Vitality damage until you run out of Vitality, at which point A) you're Fatigued, and B) future hits are applied to WP. Run out of WP and you're unconscious. Go to -10 WP and die. Take 25-49 points of damage in one attack (possible but difficult) and make a Fort save or suffer a status effect. Take 50+ points of damage (extremely difficult) and make a difficult Fort save or suffer a severe status effect.
If the GM spends an action die (he gets between 3-10 per session), he can have a special NPC do damage straight to WPs if the special NPC makes a critical hit. Doing so scares the shit out of players, especially since you can then throw another action die at the damage if you're a dick.
Which I often am, because, make no mistake, default Spycraft characters are tough.
However, there are campaign qualities that vastly increase lethality if you want to--have several characters on tap if your GC combines the bleak, gritty, violent, and bloodbath campaign qualities (but, then again, if you're playing with a GM who's willing to describe his game as a bleak, gritty, violent bloodbath, you probably know what to expect). However, be prepared to have your nerdy scientist live forever in a game that's got the bulletproof, omnicompetent, spirited, and cakewalk qualities.
It's totally customizable for what kind of game you want.
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:53 pm

> Hey_I_Can_Chan wrote:
> It's totally customizable for what kind of game you want.

Well you definitely convinced me to give Spycraft a look.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:30 pm

> RandomCasualty2 wrote:

> > Hey_I_Can_Chan wrote:
> > It's totally customizable for what kind of game you want.

> Well you definitely convinced me to give Spycraft a look.

I'm interested, too. My couple of experiences with d20 Modern were enjoyable--mostly because of the other characters and the fun of my Gunslinger taking out a scene boss with a shot from a rocket launcher.
I'm looking forward to any further further info anyone can provide.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:31 pm

> RandomCasualty2 wrote:

> > Hey_I_Can_Chan wrote:
> > It's totally customizable for what kind of game you want.

> Well you definitely convinced me to give Spycraft a look.

Likewise. I'm heading out to have a peek at it right now.
Last edited by Caedrus on Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Hey_I_Can_Chan
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Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan » Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:30 pm

Okay, now I can tell you the downsides.

- The default is geared toward secret agents. I mean, you're playing a game called Spycraft, for fuck's sake, so what did you expect? That means if you're looking for mecha, cybernetics, a huge variety of Old West revolvers, WWII artillery, or lightsabers, you're outta luck.
- The base classes, although currently extensive, might not fit with your genre. But then again, we're all savvy enough around here to be able to look at what a character does rather than the word/numeral on the sheet (Stupid GC: "Dude, I don't allow snoops in my game--it's a gritty, street-level game, not a spy game!" You: "STFU"). Look at the previews on the Crafty Games site so you can get 5-level previews of upcoming classes like the assassin, lawman, thief, and thug.
- NPCs don't follow the player's rules. The PCs are special and have 2-3-page character sheets. The NPCs are often less than 5 lines of text, even for a significant baddie. I've a buddy who hates this paradigm which is why I bring it up.
- It relies on a mission-based structure. This is my biggest beef with the system. When I run a campaign I usually throw a half dozen plot hooks in the water and see onto which ones the players bite. That sort of GCing style doesn't work in Spycraft (yet*), and so what you're stuck doing is saying to the PCs, "The goal is this and you start here," and hope they follow the clues to the next scene you've prepared.
  In my BtVS game, I've just been sort of winging it, changing scenes at virtual random and using whatever baddies I've felt like depending on where the PCs go, ignoring the XP component. It's not like you do a whole lot with XP anyway besides level up.
  - Vaguely Off-topic Playtesting Anecdote: During the playtest of Spycraft 1.0's setting book Dark Inheritance by Mythic Dreams Studio, I urged the lead designer not to charge XP for the expensive material components typically associated with D&D spells (you were supposed to be able to use them all up to 5th level in that setting). I explained how XP costs were bullshit, that all it did was create level lag, and, essentially, punish the character for his class features. He agreed and developed a better, more elegant workaround than I could have. I don't say this very often, but the designers are serious, hard-working folk who know their shit and know when to listen to other people's shit.

_________________________
* The long-awaited and much-anticipated 10,000 Bullets is supposed to make Spycraft more sandboxy and less mission-intensive. However, the author's been at work on that beast for, like, 10 years.
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ludomastro
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Post by ludomastro » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:08 am

Having played various games over the years from the great to the OK (I've so far managed to stay away from the truly horrible), I will add that Spycraft has the largest and most complex yet at the same time easy rules system I have ever seen.
IT JUST WORKS.
Perfect? No, but then again if there were a perfect ruleset out there, we would all be playing that game wouldn't we?
Looking forward to playing actually playing it versus rolling numbers in my head.
@ Hey_I_Can_Chan
Anyone on here besides you that would be interested in playing a game on a per post basis?
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:10 am

> ludomastro wrote:
> Anyone on here besides you that would be interested in playing a game on a per post basis?

When I do an online game, I use AIM. It's got a dice-rolling command on it, and while it takes longer than playing around a table, I find it to be better than per post.
Edit: The main headache about playing through AIM is scheduling a game time.
Last edited by Maxus on Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ludomastro
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Post by ludomastro » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:52 am

> Maxus wrote: When I do an online game, I use AIM. It's got a dice-rolling command on it, and while it takes longer than playing around a table, I find it to be better than per post.
> Edit: The main headache about playing through AIM is scheduling a game time.

Yeah, I never seem to be anywhere near the same time zone as the other players. I have had good luck on other forums with PbP; however, YMMV.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:44 pm

I was perusing Spycraft this morning. On the downside, Ima have to learn a new system. On the upside, it looks like d20 Modern on steroids, complete with characters who can do things.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Hey_I_Can_Chan
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Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:14 pm

Um, actually, IIRC, Spycraft first edition predates d20 Modern by some months. In fact, the Spycraft folk (again, putting words in their mouths) are pretty sure the idea of action points came from Spycraft's idea of action dice. As both were released in 2002--and AEG's agreement at the time with WotC probably remains rather secret--there's no way of knowing.
Yeah, characters can do shit. Severe shit. Like, y'know, action movie shit. The game's built for you to be John McClane or Steven Seagal, not some giant pussy who gets his ass handed to him by bad news.
And, really, if you're familiar with d20, there's enough that's changed to make such a transition meaningful, but not so much that's changed that you have to relearn everything you know. It's still roll d20 and pray, after all. Thing is, you got better classes, better skills, better feats, better gear, and better combat that the piece of shit that was d20 Modern.
Insert d20 Postmodern joke here.
Now Ima gonna go bake some cupcakes and prep for my BtVS game.
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