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Prak
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### Bigotry

Post by Prak » Wed May 26, 2010 1:45 am

Or: Alright let's have one god damned place where we can hash all this shit out without getting off topic.

> Crissa wrote:You didn't answer the question, though.
> I said this was an insult. You do not get to say it isn't. I don't care about the rules on 4chan. I don't want to post - or be involved with - people who blithely cast around derogatory terms for real persons. This may seem edge-case to you, but people are still people, whether they're transwhatever or not.
> And I am not going to stand your bigotry without saying something about it.
> -Crissa

Oh no you fucking don't. You're not getting off that easily.
You want me to answer your question? Alright, assuming the actual question was "Do you incorporate racism into your games" the answer is yes.
Why?
Because it exists, and thus it makes the setting more realistic. Second of all, it's already in the games, the gnomes think the kobolds are all shifty little buggers who prefer gang up tactics and won't stand man to man and fight fair. The dwarves hate anything with fangs. The elves want to wipe orcs off the plane. And the humans think all orcs are after their wimmin.
Now, that's assuming there was a real question there and that it wasn't just "Lets throw a question with a universally objectionable term at Prak so he fumbles his arguement!"
That shit doesn't work with me.
Now, as for the ongoing question of "What the fuck? Is she serious, high or insulting me?"
By the same token as my not getting to say what isn't an insult, you don't get to say what is. Unless the word "trap" is in fact an insult specifically to you. What say, Crissa, hiding a dick on your side? Because that's about the only way I'll give a shit what you say about the word.
Next, yes, people are people, and I care precisely the same amount about every single one I don't personally know: not. one. fucking. bit.
I have no problem with transgenders, transexuals, transvestites, or god damned transhumans.
Now, everyone knows your gender and sexual preference Crissa, you've paraded it around enough. I try not to, because everytime it comes up for me, it seems like I'm being obnoxious. I am not the 4chan troll straight male you seem to think I am. I am male, certainly, there's some anatomy that makes it difficult to argue against that. However, I am not straight, I'm bi. Also, I am not strictly male in psychology, I am, well, the best way to say it is "complex", but the label is bi-gender. I have both male and female aspects to my thoughts, attitudes, mannerisms, and psychology. For that matter, I for one, am very much looking forward to the day when you can go in for a simple genetic operation and become whatever you like, I'm not particularly happy being male, but neither would I be particularly happy with becoming female, I'm greedy, you could say. You may deny this because I don't "act" it, but let me tell you, 12 years of public school makes one very good at creating masks, and a lot of them at that. I have gotten used to a certain way of consciously acting such that I draw little attention to myself. Online, I tend to fall prey to the GIST more than I probably should.
The point of all this is, what fucking bigotry?
If you find the term "trap" offensive, grow some thicker skin. If you're offended because people apparently mistake you for a man, then either get used to it, educate them, or act more feminine. I don't give a shit which you do, but the issue is one of societal gender assumptions and your not fitting them. So you can either not be bothered by said assumptions, change said assumptions, or bend to them. I'm not advocating the last one, and I think taking it is the one that shows the least spine, but it's certainly an option.

> Ceiling Cat wrote:And this is why people outside of a group do not get to decide what people inside that group find offensive or not.
> (Also, Lago is correct, and it is an offensive term, no matter how much you are not-offended by a term that isn't used to refer to you.)

Ok. Fine. But you know what? I'm fucking inside the group. So apparently I do get a say, now don't I? And I say: grow up, it's a fucking word, and you're taking it, and life, too damned seriously. The only reason "trap" doesn't refer to me is because I don't, at this time, crossdress. I do not crossdress at this time because I know what a man, a hundred pounds over weight and in less than good physical condition looks like, and it's not the effect I wish to invoke. And I think others should keep this in mind too, I've seen some fucking hideous sites at the club that would have been hideous regardless of true gender.
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Crissa
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###

Post by Crissa » Wed May 26, 2010 2:06 am

You do not get to use defamatory language and then claim you don't have a problem with that group of people.
You are not 'good' because you don't eat babies.
-Crissa
Last edited by Crissa on Wed May 26, 2010 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nicklance
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Post by Nicklance » Wed May 26, 2010 2:09 am

How come when its babies, people get all moral about it, and when its an egg its just an omelette ?
There ain't no rest for the wicked.
befriend (v.): to use mecha-class beam weaponry to inflict grievous bodily harm on a target in the process of proving the validity of your belief system.
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Prak
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###

Post by Prak » Wed May 26, 2010 2:22 am

> Crissa wrote:You do not get to use defamatory language and then claim you don't have a problem with that group of people.
> You are not 'good' because you don't eat babies.
> -Crissa

Yes I fucking do.
You said "[EDITED]" in a post, so by your reasoning you hate black people.
Last edited by Prak on Wed May 26, 2010 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cielingcat
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Post by Cielingcat » Wed May 26, 2010 2:35 am

I'm posting to say that the atmosphere here (culminating in this specific thread) has become completely unbearable for me, and that I will no longer be visiting here.
Thanks to all of the people who made reading this site fun, though, and especially Lago for being like, the most entertaining poster I've ever read on any forum.
CHICKENS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO COCAINE, SILKY HEN

> Josh_Kablack wrote:You are not a unique and precious snowflake, you are just one more fucking asshole on the internet who presumes themselves to be better than the unwashed masses.

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PhoneLobster
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### Re: Bigotry

Post by PhoneLobster » Wed May 26, 2010 2:40 am

> Prak_Anima wrote:grow up, it's a fucking word, and you're taking it, and life, too damned seriously.

If SHE is the one taking "life too seriously" (whatever the crazy fuck THAT means) then why are YOU the one insisting on saying offensive words even when other people to tell you to stop because they don't like it. And then going on crazy offensive rants about it, like you were all obsessive and needy or something?
If you really were the laid back and casual one you would be all like "oh sorry, it's not like I need to use that word, I'll say something else if you like".
The "AAAAAH I SAYZ WHAT I WANTZ BITCHEZ!!!!!!" rant is er... not the laid back and easy going lifestyle response to being called out for using offensive words.
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Prak
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### Re: Bigotry

Post by Prak » Wed May 26, 2010 2:46 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:

> > Prak_Anima wrote:grow up, it's a fucking word, and you're taking it, and life, too damned seriously.

> If SHE is the one taking "life too seriously" (whatever the crazy fuck THAT means) then why are YOU the one insisting on saying offensive words even when other people to tell you to stop because they don't like it. And then going on crazy offensive rants about it, like you were all obsessive and needy or something?
> If you really were the laid back and casual one you would be all like "oh sorry, it's not like I need to use that word, I'll say something else if you like".
> The "AAAAAH I SAYZ WHAT I WANTZ BITCHEZ!!!!!!" rant is er... not the laid back and easy going lifestyle response to being called out for using offensive words.

Technically I wasn't calling for us to all be laid back hippies or shit.
However, the fact that I got this pissed off when called a bigot... still kinda makes your point valid...
so yeah.
Alright, I'm going to try to calm the fuck down. I'm looking for outside perspectives from my friends to see if maybe I'm completely off base here anyway.
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Nicklance
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###

Post by Nicklance » Wed May 26, 2010 2:46 am

@Cielingcat
See ya soon.
@PhoneLobster
'Free' Speech is a two way street. Every effort expended to tell one party to watch their words will be met with an equally strong effort to resist the need to watch the words. And balance is restored to the Force.
There ain't no rest for the wicked.
befriend (v.): to use mecha-class beam weaponry to inflict grievous bodily harm on a target in the process of proving the validity of your belief system.
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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###

Post by Kaelik » Wed May 26, 2010 2:49 am

Yeah I know Phone Lobster, it's totally bullshit.
Every time Crissa and Ceiling Cat start calling people racist/sexist they keep defending themselves like assholes instead of apologizing for being racist and sexist as they must clearly be because only Ceiling Cat and Crissa are allowed to make that determination.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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PhoneLobster
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###

Post by PhoneLobster » Wed May 26, 2010 3:04 am

> Nicklance wrote:'Free' Speech is...

... irrelevant I was calling him on an inconsistency in his attitude.
I don't like bigotry but I just HATE inconsistency.
It's not like I'm wandering around telling him to stop being offensive, that would be somewhat hypocritical of me. I'm just telling him to stop pretending he isn't because it isn't working.
Phonelobster's Self Proclaimed Greatest Hits Collection : (no really, they are awesome)
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Wed May 26, 2010 3:05 am

Goddamnit, I like Ceilingcat. She's actually the reason I ended up here (the Warlock That Doesn't Suck, on the old WotC boards, linked me here). It was great when PR and Tzor ragequitted, but not the cat.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Wed May 26, 2010 3:08 am

> Kaelik wrote:because only Ceiling Cat and Crissa are allowed to make that determination.

Except that Prak defined the tone he expected, demanded, Ceiling Cat and Crissa to take in response to his posts as basically "easy going and tolerant" while, you know, not doing that himself.
I haven't closely followed your petty vendetta against Crissa and Ceiling Cat because I really don't enjoy that sort of shit.
But practice what you preach or I'll call you on it.
Phonelobster's Self Proclaimed Greatest Hits Collection : (no really, they are awesome)
Phonelobster's Latest RPG Rule Set
The world's most definitive Star Wars Saga Edition Review
That Time I reviewed D20Modern Classes
Stories from Phonelobster's ridiculous life about local gaming stores, board game clubs and brothels
Australia is a horror setting thread
Phonelobster's totally legit history of the island of Malta
The utterly infamous Our Favourite Edition Is 2nd Edition thread
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Prak
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###

Post by Prak » Wed May 26, 2010 3:12 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:

> > Kaelik wrote:because only Ceiling Cat and Crissa are allowed to make that determination.

> Except that Prak defined the tone he expected, demanded, Ceiling Cat and Crissa to take in response to his posts as basically "easy going and tolerant" while, you know, not doing that himself.
> I haven't closely followed your petty vendetta against Crissa and Ceiling Cat because I really don't enjoy that sort of shit.
> But practice what you preach or I'll call you on it.

and I was wrong to imply that I expected them to, since I wasn't doing it myself.
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Kaelik
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###

Post by Kaelik » Wed May 26, 2010 3:18 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:I haven't closely followed your petty vendetta against Crissa and Ceiling Cat because I really don't enjoy that sort of shit.
> But practice what you preach or I'll call you on it.

I don't have a vendetta against them. They just keeping calling people bigoted every few days, and I keep calling them on it.
You could try calling them on it since they are being hypocritical about it by regularly using offensive terms themselves, but I understand that if you did so, they would immediately start calling you a sexist, and you don't want that so you side with them and never call them on their shit.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed May 26, 2010 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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PhoneLobster
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###

Post by PhoneLobster » Wed May 26, 2010 3:20 am

> Prak_Anima wrote:and I was wrong to imply that I expected them to, since I wasn't doing it myself.

I'm glad you took that attitude, and in public no less.
I was just pointing out again to Kaelik who seems to have missed it somehow, though why I bother I have no idea.
I mean half the reason I haven't closely followed this whole feud is because I have him on ignore.
Phonelobster's Self Proclaimed Greatest Hits Collection : (no really, they are awesome)
Phonelobster's Latest RPG Rule Set
The world's most definitive Star Wars Saga Edition Review
That Time I reviewed D20Modern Classes
Stories from Phonelobster's ridiculous life about local gaming stores, board game clubs and brothels
Australia is a horror setting thread
Phonelobster's totally legit history of the island of Malta
The utterly infamous Our Favourite Edition Is 2nd Edition thread
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Calibron
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Post by Calibron » Wed May 26, 2010 3:47 am

Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck.
You know what, I'm going to go ahead and jump on the bandwagon and leave, maybe just for a few months, maybe permanently. I'm not contributing a whole lot, I'm not getting many good ideas from the discussions, and immature little assholes like Kaelik are ruining the atmosphere around here. Good luck guys.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Wed May 26, 2010 3:52 am

Can y'all please stop being such thin skinned immature defensive pussies? This is the internet and we don't care about you. Stop assuming that we care enough about you to do things specifically to insult you. That's just fucking arrogant.
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Nicklance
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Post by Nicklance » Wed May 26, 2010 4:28 am

> Koumei wrote:Goddamnit, I like Ceilingcat. She's actually the reason I ended up here (the Warlock That Doesn't Suck, on the old WotC boards, linked me here). It was great when PR and Tzor ragequitted, but not the cat.

They will never go away. Look out for them, they'll be back soon.
There ain't no rest for the wicked.
befriend (v.): to use mecha-class beam weaponry to inflict grievous bodily harm on a target in the process of proving the validity of your belief system.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed May 26, 2010 4:31 am

> ubernoob wrote:Can y'all please stop being such thin skinned immature defensive pussies? This is the internet and we don't care about you. Stop assuming that we care enough about you to do things specifically to insult you. That's just fucking arrogant.

I think that it's easier to keep that sort of attitude on anonymous boards. Here attacks actually are often rather personal, although I seriously doubt that any major poster gives two shits about any other poster's sex, gender, or sexual orientation.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed May 26, 2010 4:36 am

You don't shower and you'll be called stinky.
You talk like a bigot, and you'll be called a bigot.
-Crissa
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Wed May 26, 2010 4:45 am

> Crissa wrote:You don't shower and you'll be called stinky.
> You talk like a bigot, and you'll be called a bigot.
> -Crissa

sure thing bigot.
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IGTN
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Post by IGTN » Wed May 26, 2010 5:11 am

Calibron, CeilingCat, you'll be missed. Enjoy your respective breaks, and I hope to run into you elsewhere or when you return.
"No, you can't burn the inn down. It's made of solid fire."
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Wed May 26, 2010 5:28 am

> Nicklance wrote: They will never go away. Look out for them, they'll be back soon.

Tzor seems to have kept his word so far. PR came back, and that was a sad day indeed.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Nicklance
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Post by Nicklance » Wed May 26, 2010 5:44 am

> Koumei wrote:

> > Nicklance wrote: They will never go away. Look out for them, they'll be back soon.

> Tzor seems to have kept his word so far. PR came back, and that was a sad day indeed.

Probably lurking around trying to find the perfect opportunity to strike back.
There ain't no rest for the wicked.
befriend (v.): to use mecha-class beam weaponry to inflict grievous bodily harm on a target in the process of proving the validity of your belief system.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed May 26, 2010 5:52 am

Treatment of transgendered people is a huge issue and a huge problem. But the fact is that no one owns language. And Crissa and Ceilingcat aren't even demanding that people use language in a way that s technically correct, but rather a manner that conforms to the way they wish the world worked. And that's totally unreasonable.
People are going to use the word hermaphrodite. It's a word. It has meanings. People use it, and will continue to use it. And people who attack other people for using it... are the people who have the problem. Not the other way around.
People who are XY are male. Cosmetic surgery is cosmetic. It doesn't actually change you from being XY to XX. People who are XXY are intersex. Deciding to interact with society as a man or a woman doesn't change that either.
You have a right as an individual to be treated with respect. You can even ask people to refer t you as "m'am" in precisely the way you can ask to be called "Steve." But that's a personal respect issue. It's not a moral issue. And it is totally unreasonable to expect people to simply guess what you want to be called every time. And it is totally unreasonable to demand that other people refer to yet other people by whatever names you want them to be called. Especially if those other people have made it clear that they wish to be called something else from what you want them to be called.
Yes. There are transvestites (not usually transsexuals) who like to be called "traps." It's a badge of pride that they are successfully doing their transvestite thing well. Actual transsexuals can go ahead and be offended by being called "traps." But they aren't being reasonable when they say that the people who like it shouldn't be called that.
The transgender community is very fractured on what language they want used. That kind of disagreement is acceptable. The Dykes on Bikes are a real organization. There are people who hate the word "gay." And you know what? Individual people are going to grab whatever words the people they happen to know happen to use. There are no right or wrong answers. Some people use the word "dyke" others use the word "lesbian"and neither is objectively right or wrong.
Any of these words can be used as an insult. Any of them can be used as a badge of pride. And simply seeing the word in print in isolation will not tell you which it was used in. The words themselves are not inherently bigoted or insulting or friendly or rebellious. Because the words do not have consistent meaning.
-Username17
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