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Mistborn
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### (D&D 3e) 9th level evocations.

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Post by Mistborn » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:17 am

So one of the things we're all much remarked on is how much of a joke Meteor Swarm is so here's some 9th level evocations that demand the same respect as Timestop or Shapechange. So here's some more terrible 9th level evocations.
Missile Cascade
Evocation {Force}
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Long (400 ft. + 40 ft level.)
Targets:any number of creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell funtions like Magic Missile only instead of producing a set number of missiles it launches one missile per caster level level at any number of valid targets withing the spells range
Infinite Flames
Evocation {Fire}
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Meduim (100 ft. + 10 ft. level)
Area 20ft radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex Half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes
You launch a 2ft diameter ball of fire from you hand you may elect to target a specific creature with it if so make a ranged touch attack. Regardless of the attacks success or failure the ball of fire detonates in an 40ft explosion of fire dealing 100 points of fire damage with a reflex save for half damage allowed unless the target was struck by the initial sphere. Unlike other spell Infinite Flames is not expended when cast, as long as the spell has been prepared once (or a 9th level slot is left open for a spontaneous caster) the spell can be cast any number of times
Godfucker
Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Range:Close (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets:One creature
Duration:Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude partial Will partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: Fuck No
Know and feared as one of potent combat spells ever to exist it's said to be such a terrible sight that mortal minds immediately take the most ingratiating posture of surrender when they contemplate it, on gods it's said truly have the faculties to properly experiences the horror of this spells existence. Any spell or spell like effects that would stop Godfucker from it's target are automatically subjected to a dispel attempt using the casters full dispel check imediately before the spell resolves.
The target you designate takes 100 points of untyped damage then must make of fortitude save or die then make a will save or be stunned for 5 rounds. Any creatures with 10 or fewer HD that witness this spell being cast must make a will save or become cowering for the next 10 rounds
Ruin Lightning
Evocation {Electricity}
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components:V, S
Casting Time:1 standard action
Area: 1 mile radius burst centered on you
Duration: Concentration (maximum 1/round level)
Saving Throw: Reflex Half
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell deals 10d6 points damage that is half electricity and half untyped damage (which ignores hardness) to all creatures within the area When you begin casting this spell you may designate 1 creature/level within the area to not be effected by the spell. Anyone observing this spells effect can easily pinpoint your location at the center.
Last edited by Mistborn on Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:26 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:24 am

Congratulations, literally every single one of those is twice as good as Wail of the Banshee. You are an idiot.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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Mistborn
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Post by Mistborn » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:41 am

> Kaelik wrote:Congratulations, literally every single one of those is twice as good as Wail of the Banshee. You are an idiot.

... You lost me.
By what measure are all of these spells better than SoDing 1/person level
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:05 am

Icy Prison, Mass
Ride the Lightning
Winds of Vengeance
Last edited by Avoraciopoctules on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:15 am

Wail: Save or Die as a death effect they have to hear on everyone with no friendly fire exception, only affecting people out to 75ft.
Missile Cascade: 70 Force Damage to any number of targets up to 1200ft with friendly fire exception.
Wail is nowhere near as good at dealing with Mooks, but it is okay, because single tough enemies will likely make their save, while Missile can be cast multiple times from 1200ft away and kill people.
Infinite Flames: Doesn't cost a spell slot, range out to 1200ft, so you use it literally every single time you see an enemy at that range, does 130 damage no save to one target, ref half to others. Trivially easy to manage damage type to effect everyone.
Infinite Flames much better against single tough enemies or small groups, also much better against hordes, always better and never costs a spell slot.
Godfucker: A) really fucking stupid, because it is another stupid vague Iron Heart Surge statement, B) 300ft range does 150 damage and save or die and save or stun. Absurdly better than Wail against anything that isn't a horde of mooks. Also better against hordes that have less than 15HD, because it works on everything that sees it instead of the very short range of Wail.
Ruin Lighting (I assume you meant Lightning): untyped damage up to 2 miles away, can maintain long enough to do 700 damage, kills everyone without giving them the chance to retaliate.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:14 am

I like the idea, but I think reflex shaves should be allowed to at least half the damage, or completely avoid it if you are a slippery Reimu
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:49 am

I like them. I would take Time Stop before any of them and Wail before Ruin or Godfucker. The Magic Missile ones is as good as Wail (Unless the Shield spell stops it like regular magic missiles) and Infinite Flames is a little better but I think that means he's doing it right. He's ranged in to the right power level, strong 9th level spells, and some will be a little above and others a little below.
Also if you think Ruin Lightning is better than Wail you are straight up wrong and it implies you are not thinking about this rationally. Ruin Lightning's area is nothing but flavor. Your DM only made one enemy castle and he's not statting up the entire fucking tri-state area so the difference between Ruin and Firestorm is almost none cause at 20th level they both just have Area: Everything.
Keep going LM.

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Post by JigokuBosatsu » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:53 pm

How about Summon Proofreader?

> Omegonthesane wrote:a glass armonica which causes a target city to have horrific nightmares that prevent sleep

> JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?

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Dr_Noface
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Post by Dr_Noface » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:45 pm

You don't like the spells because they're army killers?
EDIT: Although Ruin Lightning is a spell that might just be used to troll campaign worlds. It basically kills everyone low level who's outside. Do you want this?
Last edited by Dr_Noface on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fbmf
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Post by fbmf » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:12 pm

This thread has suggestions for ninth level evocations:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=162374
Game On,
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:32 pm

> deanruel87 wrote:I like them. I would take Time Stop before any of them and Wail before Ruin or Godfucker. The Magic Missile ones is as good as Wail (Unless the Shield spell stops it like regular magic missiles) and Infinite Flames is a little better but I think that means he's doing it right. He's ranged in to the right power level, strong 9th level spells, and some will be a little above and others a little below.

What are you going to do in the Time Stop that is worth actually doing?
Time Stop is mostly not worth a 9th level spell outside some specific bullshit that no one actually does.

> deanruel87 wrote:Also if you think Ruin Lightning is better than Wail you are straight up wrong and it implies you are not thinking about this rationally. Ruin Lightning's area is nothing but flavor. Your DM only made one enemy castle and he's not statting up the entire fucking tri-state area so the difference between Ruin and Firestorm is almost none cause at 20th level they both just have Area: Everything.

You are a fucking idiot. Yes, Ruin is not as good Wail of the Banshee if you are literally standing right next to a bunch of people, but the DM stats up the fortress ahead of time, and then you can see the Fortress from a mile away, and then you cast Ruin centered on it from a mile away and you watch as the entire fortress is destroyed and everyone inside who can't teleport dies.
You might as well say that Planar Binding isn't as good as X, because you can't use it in the middle of the fight. You don't use it in the middle of the fight.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:16 pm

> Kaelik wrote:What are you going to do in the Time Stop that is worth actually doing?

I'd assume I'd combine it with battlefield control, delay spells and a final ready action to do literally the best thing in the game which is to give myself more actions. Now I'm no Time stop expert cause I've never played in a game past 13th level (which is one level short of Time Stop if you're an Ur-Priest) but I understand why action economy is the best thing you can buy.

> cast Ruin centered on it from a mile away and you watch as the entire fortress is destroyed and everyone inside who can't teleport dies.

Read that again Kaelik. Maybe our games are a lot different, I don't know. But how much of the opposition that you are actually threatened by at 20th level moves on foot? You are upset that this spell is better at dealing with some theoretical opposition that is 20th level without any ability to teleport and who spends all their time in an ill defended mile high tower surrounded by plains on all sides for easy viewing. I'll put this in Kaelikese so you might understand it: Fuck you you fucking idiot. If your enemies at 20th level are walking around in a field and have no extradimensional capabilities then the list of spells you could beat them with is endless. Do you know why that is you fucking idiot? It's because they're ogres or some shit and they were never even remotely threatening in the first place. In any high level combat that I can ever imagine having Wail is better than Ruin. It is possible that you could use Ruin as kind of a cool surprise attack opener but that is seriously all.

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:08 am

> deanruel87 wrote:I'd assume I'd combine it with battlefield control, delay spells and a final ready action to do literally the best thing in the game which is to give myself more actions. Now I'm no Time stop expert cause I've never played in a game past 13th level (which is one level short of Time Stop if you're an Ur-Priest) but I understand why action economy is the best thing you can buy.

So you would spend a standard action and a 9th level spell to end with a readied action, but inbetween cast some battlefield control. So... shit all nothing, because apparently all your enemies can cast teleport, so you spent all that time for nothing.
But let's assume that some of your enemies can't teleport, even though you explicitly denied that in this same post: Great, you spent a 9th level spell for the sum total effect of casting one or two lower level spells at no action cost. You know what you could have done instead? Cast those spells with one of the many methods that doesn't require using 9th level spells to cast them with no action cost.
And realistically, I'm not sure what you think you are getting out of stacking multiple BC effects, because the marginal utility of each one drops with more spell added.

> deanruel87 wrote:Read that again Kaelik. Maybe our games are a lot different, I don't know. But how much of the opposition that you are actually threatened by at 20th level moves on foot? You are upset that this spell is better at dealing with some theoretical opposition that is 20th level without any ability to teleport and who spends all their time in an ill defended mile high tower surrounded by plains on all sides for easy viewing. I'll put this in Kaelikese so you might understand it: Fuck you you fucking idiot. If your enemies at 20th level are walking around in a field and have no extradimensional capabilities then the list of spells you could beat them with is endless. Do you know why that is you fucking idiot? It's because they're ogres or some shit and they were never even remotely threatening in the first place.

Why would it matter if they were on foot? Literally every single point within a mile of them is being subject to a bunch of untyped (and electricity) damage each round. If they cannot teleport, and have any speed at all, they are going to take the same amount of damage. A mile is more than 5,000 feet, so the dragon with a 400ft fly speed and a run action is still going to be subject to 4 rounds of the effect before it can get out, anything with a fly speed of 100ft will take more than 10 rounds of damage.
That is not Ogres, that is everything that doesn't specifically have one of the subtypes that grants Greater Teleport as an SLA. Lots of enemies don't have teleport, and it doesn't matter if they are in a field or not, because you can fucking fly up and cast it from a mile away.
And you can do this at any time to any fortified location while subject to Mindblank, so this doesn't even trigger a fight, it just fucks people up. This is literally just the Red tentacles discussion all over again.

> deanruel87 wrote:In any high level combat that I can ever imagine having Wail is better than Ruin. It is possible that you could use Ruin as kind of a cool surprise attack opener but that is seriously all.

In any level 11 combat I can ever imagine Flesh to Stone is better than Planar Binding. Because one of those is a spell you cast in combat, and the other is not. Ruin is a non-combat utility spell, where the utility is "kill everyone within a mile of some spot that can't teleport, and force all the ones that can to leave the area, also destroy all the things."
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Mistborn
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Post by Mistborn » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:40 am

> Kaelik wrote:That is not Ogres, that is everything that doesn't specifically have one of the subtypes that grants Greater Teleport as an SLA. Lots of enemies don't have teleport, and it doesn't matter if they are in a field or not, because you can fucking fly up and cast it from a mile away.
> And you can do this at any time to any fortified location while subject to Mindblank, so this doesn't even trigger a fight, it just fucks people up. This is literally just the Red tentacles discussion all over again.

So first things. Godfucker and Infinite Flames have had their damage lowered . The fear effect from Godfucker is now 10HD or less (I might remove it entirely it was kind of a joke)
Ruin Lightning has been reworked, but yes it is kind of a gtfo ability If you can't teleport you're boned. The spell is heavily derived from that write-up of red miles. I've been tweaking it to be more workable. So consider the following.
One you actually can fight in it as it allows saves/energy resistance/spell resistance to intercept some of the damage.
Two It also eats your actions to keep it going while being a shitty way to deal with people directly in front of you.
Three total cover from the origin point blocks the effect (at least until that cover is destroyed by the lightning
Four this was supposed to be make clear in the initial draft but anyone who can see your Ruin Lighting can easily trace it back to the source (i.e.) you.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:02 am

> Lord Mistborn wrote:So first things. Godfucker and Infinite Flames have had their damage lowered . The fear effect from Godfucker is now 10HD or less (I might remove it entirely it was kind of a joke)

1) The problem with Infinite Flames is that it doesn't cost a spell slot, and gives you infinite attacks at 1200ft that basically always hit.
The fix is to make it work like Produce Flame, when cast, it does use up a spell slot, and then you can use X charges over the next few minutes.
Because anything that suddenly makes Wizards Kite super hard at 1200ft without expending spell slots is a problem for the game.
2) I don't think Godfuckers damage matters at all. There are two problems with it, both relate to the same sentence and have nothing to do with the damage.
A) It is a save or die, with a second save or be stunned, and X damage if they make both saves. That would be fine, except: I don't know what this does when someone casts a spell that increases their saves. By which I mean, if a Balor uses Unholy Aura, does this spell dispel? Does it dispel only if the save is made by less than 4?
B) It is completely unclear how this interacts with all kinds of things. If someone readies a teleport spell, and then you cast Godfucker, triggering their readied action, what happens, do you attempt to counterspell with the dispel? Why can Wall of Force and Wall of Stone block this spell, but Wall of Ice can't?
Also, I assume you mean for the dispels to occur before the thing that it is dispelling prevents the attack, but that is not what it says now.

> Lord Mistborn wrote:Three total cover from the origin point blocks the effect (at least until that cover is destroyed by the lightning

No, it doesn't.
"A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes."

> Lord Mistborn wrote:Four this was supposed to be make clear in the initial draft but anyone who can see your Ruin Lighting can easily trace it back to the source (i.e.) you.

In the original writeup, it didn't even originate from you, it had a range of one mile and an area of one mile, which meant that you had its point of origin be a mile away, and therefore no one could find you.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Mistborn
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Post by Mistborn » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:25 am

> Kaelik wrote: 1) The problem with Infinite Flames is that it doesn't cost a spell slot, and gives you infinite attacks at 1200ft that basically always hit.
> The fix is to make it work like Produce Flame, when cast, it does use up a spell slot, and then you can use X charges over the next few minutes.
> Because anything that suddenly makes Wizards Kite super hard at 1200ft without expending spell slots is a problem for the game.

The fact that you can cast Infinite Flames an unlimited number of times what makes them "infinite". I lowered the range though.

> Kaelik wrote:2) I don't think Godfuckers damage matters at all. There are two problems with it, both relate to the same sentence and have nothing to do with the damage.
> A) It is a save or die, with a second save or be stunned, and X damage if they make both saves. That would be fine, except: I don't know what this does when someone casts a spell that increases their saves. By which I mean, if a Balor uses Unholy Aura, does this spell dispel? Does it dispel only if the save is made by less than 4?
> B) It is completely unclear how this interacts with all kinds of things. If someone readies a teleport spell, and then you cast Godfucker, triggering their readied action, what happens, do you attempt to counterspell with the dispel? Why can Wall of Force and Wall of Stone block this spell, but Wall of Ice can't?
> Also, I assume you mean for the dispels to occur before the thing that it is dispelling prevents the attack, but that is not what it says now.

Changed the wording a bit to make a bit it less ambiguous.

> Lord Mistborn wrote:Three total cover from the origin point blocks the effect (at least until that cover is destroyed by the lightning

> Kaelik wrote:No, it doesn't.

fixed
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Post by TarkisFlux » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:11 am

All of these are bad, but for different reasons. 9th level spells are either plot effects (mile+ wide blizzards, some other bullshit) or similar to lower spells in that they're good at dealing with equal level opposition.
These are trying to be both, and it's not cool. Here's my take on what needs to change, though I will probably disagree with Kaelik about whether it's okay to have a plot device damage spell at 9 or not:
[*]Missile Cascade: Magic missile is a bullshit spell, and this is bullshit in the opposite direction. It should be caster level targets within an arc in front of you to the extreme of the range or something. Then it's a long range mook softener spell (average of 70 points of damage to 20 dudes at level 20) instead of the current mess.
[*]Infinite Flames: This is basically a boosted fireball that you can cast from the same slot as many times as you want until you prepare something else in there. So I'd start by removing the touch attack thing, because it doesn't add much and I don't want to break out the grenade miss charts when these go awry. That out of the way, I'm happy to treat "infinite spell" as a +4 spell level metamagic boost, because at that point I just don't care if you want to put a vastly inferior spell up there and cast it all day instead of a good one once. Since this is basically fireball, that gives you 2 levels worth of metamagic style tweaking to fit this into a 9 (base 3 + 4 for infinite use + 2 for whatever). I figure you can use 2 points to heighten it and make it 15d6+0 (instead of the current damage, and not 10d6 because level 5 spells have a 15 die cap per dmg guidelines and heighten is dumb otherwise) with a +4 on the save (because it isn't a 9, it's a boosted fireball and that corrects it), or take 10d6+0 with no save bonus and call it a wash. Is it useful against equal level foes? Not really, unless you're in an attrition scenario and need a fallback. But worth a 9 slot? I'd say yes because all-day fireballs is a thing you could do high end game shit with, even if it is highly situational.
[*]Godfucker: The fear thing needs to go. And the order is all wacky. Should be save or die, if pass take damage and save or stunned. Drop the damage to 60 and add a ranged touch attack, and you basically have a boosted disintegrate that fits well into a 9.
[*]Ruin Lightning: This looks like it wants to be a large scale plot device spell, and not a combat spell. I'm of the opinion that doubling the actual area of a spell is about worth +1 spell level, and you can get a radius of 360' in a blast from a 3rd level spell without too much handwaving. Since this is better in AoE, range, and duration than that would be, you need to boost cast time to compensate if you're unwilling to drop the effect substantially. I'd maybe add some sort of weird "here I am, come get me" effect during the cast time as well to ram home the plot device part of it.
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Post by Kaelik » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:38 am

> TarkisFlux wrote:That out of the way, I'm happy to treat "infinite spell" as a +4 spell level metamagic boost, because at that point I just don't care if you want to put a vastly inferior spell up there and cast it all day instead of a good one once.

Well I'm fucking not. And you shouldn't be either. At will Fireball is fundamentally different from other effects because it encourages kiting everything from 1200ft away.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by TarkisFlux » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:25 am

> Kaelik wrote:

> > TarkisFlux wrote:That out of the way, I'm happy to treat "infinite spell" as a +4 spell level metamagic boost, because at that point I just don't care if you want to put a vastly inferior spell up there and cast it all day instead of a good one once.

> Well I'm fucking not. And you shouldn't be either. At will Fireball is fundamentally different from other effects because it encourages kiting everything from 1200ft away.

Like the Fire Mage has been doing for levels by this point (though with a slightly more intensive action cost)? Your foes are CR fucking 17+ and can magic up some fire resistance / immunity if they don't have it by default. If your relevant foes are vulnerable to that sort of tactic, your MC is being nice to you and can stop that. And if you instead fireball up a bunch of much lower level opposition or a town you have basically a plot spell similar to the rest of the plot power 9s.
If you're instead arguing for a shorter range, I could see that. I'm not a fan of 'long' range attack spells in the first place, particularly at higher levels when you can magically target people a quarter mile away with precision.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:34 am

The Firemage cannot kite.
Kiting requires moving away from your enemies in such a way that they cannot reach you while using your attacks. Wizards can keep Shapechange and Polymorph up all day and Teleport, so they can kite everything that doesn't have Greater Teleport.
Fire Mages get to begin combat at long range, but have no way of preventing enemies from closing on them.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by TarkisFlux » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:26 am

Fleeing in the same round as fireballing and preventing approach requires action economy shenanigans and spell slots (unless I'm forgetting move action option), both of which are limited. At some point you run out of those things and are vulnerable to catching via teleport or similar, and you've bought yourself a round or 5 at the expense of many slots. So you can do limited kiting with crappy fireballs against people up to 10 levels less than you or unlimited kiting of people farther below you than that, and I'm still left not caring. Those people are 4+ levels beneath them, and are not serious challenges. What is problematic about taking them out with unlimited and otherwise crappy fireballs instead of a real spell that would sit in the same slot? I'm genuinely confused as to why you care about them kiting people without access to those things, when you are substantially higher level than they are in the first place.
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:44 am

> So you would spend a standard action and a 9th level spell to end with a readied action, but inbetween cast some battlefield control. So... shit all nothing, because apparently all your enemies can cast teleport

I would yes. I would use delayed damage spells if there were large groups of enemies and I would use battlefield control on big enemies because it doesn't matter if they COULD teleport because after between 3-6 actions of mine they won't be able to. Minimum you have 3 actions (including your ready) with an un-metamagiked Timestop that rolled a 1. If you're fighting Orcus or some crazy shit you could put an enlarged Dimension Lock near him then cover him in Cloudkill and a Wall of Stone. I do assume all the enemies I'd care about at 20th level can teleport, but that could be stopped if I had a serious action economy advantage. Action economy is king.
You are correct that things like Celerity or Contingent spells might be a more efficient way to get there. But I don't see those as mutually exclusive. I would never turn down action economy gains.

> Ruin is a non-combat utility spell, where the utility is "kill everyone within a mile of some spot that can't teleport, and force all the ones that can to leave the area, also destroy all the things."

Agreed. And I think that's fine.
Also Kaelik where do you stand on Vancian magic in general? I'm interested whether you think it's a positive for the game in general or a necessary evil and if you think the various tricks to circumvent it are bad for the game and whatnot. Finally what is this Red Tentacles discussion? I tried google searching tgmd for it and I didn't get anything.

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Grek
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### Re: (D&D 3e) 9th level evocations.

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Post by Grek » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:31 pm

A better version of Infinite Flames:
99 Fireballs
Evocation {Fire}
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components:V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None (see text)
You produce 99 glowing, pea-sized beads, each of which can reproduce the effects of a single casting of Fireball when thrown at a target. Throwing a bead is an attack action, uses your caster level to determine the effects and provokes an attack of opportunity as normal for casting a spell. Any Metamagic effects which could normally be applied to Fireball can be applied to this spell; doing so modifies the fireball beads produced by this spell. For example, if this spell were Maximized, the fireball that resulted from a bead being thrown would likewise be Maximized. Only the caster of this spell is able to make the beads work and they will not detonate if thrown by anyone else.
Material Component
A wheelbarrow full of bat guano and sulfur.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:06 pm

> TarkisFlux wrote:Fleeing in the same round as fireballing and preventing approach requires action economy shenanigans and spell slots (unless I'm forgetting move action option), both of which are limited. At some point you run out of those things and are vulnerable to catching via teleport or similar, and you've bought yourself a round or 5 at the expense of many slots.

No, when you are 1200ft away, you don't need action economy to fucking kite. You have a move speed of 200ft or more, and you just kite them the whole day. To say nothing about every monster that cannot fly and only has medium range attacks, like the Nightcrawler.
You use your move action to move 200ft each round, and everything with a fly speed 100ft or less (which is like everything) can never fucking attack you. Oh sure, when your enemy eventually closes with you after repeated run actions, you need to use your own run actions to put enough distance to go back to attacking, but that doesn't matter.

> TarkisFlux wrote:So you can do limited kiting with crappy fireballs against people up to 10 levels less than you or unlimited kiting of people farther below you than that, and I'm still left not caring.

No, you can do unlimited kiting of, for example, all the CR 17-18 dragons in the monster in the Monster Manual except the White, Brass, and Gold Dragons.

> TarkisFlux wrote:I'm genuinely confused as to why you care about them kiting people without access to those things, when you are substantially higher level than they are in the first place.

"Those people" are literally fucking everything in the game without access to their own "crappy fireballs", teleport at will, or a move speed of 200ft. And if you dumpster dive I bet you can drastically up that move speed too.

> deanruel87 wrote:I would yes. I would use delayed damage spells if there were large groups of enemies and I would use battlefield control on big enemies because it doesn't matter if they COULD teleport because after between 3-6 actions of mine they won't be able to.

Delayed Damage spells + Timestop is really pretty shitty. And no, your BC would not result in them being unable to teleport, because they can teleport.

> deanruel87 wrote:Minimum you have 3 actions (including your ready) with an un-metamagiked Timestop that rolled a 1.

I have no idea how you are coming up with three actions. You spend a standard action to cast Timestop on your turn, you roll a 1, you get 1+1 actions, your second action must be to ready, your first action is to cast one spell. That is totally a possibility that will happen 1/4th the time you cast Time stop, you buy one spell.
Yeah, you get some move actions, but no one cares.

> deanruel87 wrote:If you're fighting Orcus or some crazy shit you could put an enlarged Dimension Lock near him then cover him in Cloudkill and a Wall of Stone.

Okay, so 1/4th the time you do this, you don't even get to finish the Wall of Stone. But let's say you get this off: Orcus has a spellcraft high enough to figure out where you targeted the Dimensional Lock, then he will use one of his infinity goddam abilities that breaks line of effect and then he would teleport away. And you would have done... 1d2 con damage for your 9th, 8th, and 2 5th level spells.

> deanruel87 wrote:Also Kaelik where do you stand on Vancian magic in general? I'm interested whether you think it's a positive for the game in general or a necessary evil and if you think the various tricks to circumvent it are bad for the game and whatnot. Finally what is this Red Tentacles discussion? I tried google searching tgmd for it and I didn't get anything.

In general, Vancian magic is one kind of resource management. It is not my personal favorite resource mechanic for my character to have, but it is fine for the game, provided that it is balanced correctly with the other types, which leads to...:
Things that "circumvent" Vancian magic are shit and bad for the game. The entire point of the balance between something like the Wizard vs Something like the Storm Lord is that one of them has limited uses per day. If you just slap + infinity spells on the Wizard, there is basically no reason to not play a fucking Wizard and you have broken the game, so if any part of your plan involves "yeah I spent 27 spell levels just to do 2 con damage, but it is okay, because I planeshift to a timeless plane and get all my spells back" then I reject your plan out of hand.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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Foxwarrior
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Post by Foxwarrior » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:36 pm

So, Kaelik, is kiting someone with only 20 or 50 fireballs not unlimited enough for you?
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