# The Gaming Den

Welcome to the Gaming Den.

Skip to content

## Math in board & card games.

Mundane & Pointless Stuff I Must Share: The Off Topic Forum

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply

- Print view

15 posts • Page 1 of 1

Cynic
  Prince
  Posts: 2776
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Math in board & card games.

- Quote

Post by Cynic » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:25 pm

Based on my previous topic on a similar subject, I will be teaching a group of 6th - 8th graders Math and statistics over a course of 6-9 weeks (2 hours each weeks.) The idea is to challenge them to the best of their ability.
The list of games I have so far is Uno, Yahtzee, Phase 10, Flux, Munchkin,Phase 10. BS, Poker (?)
The basic idea I have is to show them probability and how it works in specific environments. So the specific circumstance is the 3 weeks after the 6 where they would be making the game.
.0
So, I have three questions.
1.) Suggestions for card/dice games that fit this profile.
2.) What kind of math does this age group know ?
3.) hints/links/whatever to help make a crib sheet that I can give the kids.

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

Top

Ancient History
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 12708
  Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Ancient History » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:00 pm

Yahtzee is probably your best bet - at one level it is very simple to demonstrate outcomes (what are the chances of rolling a 6 on this die? What are my chances of rolling a 6 with 5 dice? What are my chances of rolling a Yahtzee?) and you can get into some more advanced talk about strategy if all goes well (At what point should I hold three dice and roll two? Is it easier to get a full house or a straight?)
Cheat sheet.
If you're using a deck of cards, don't start out with poker - even if you explained to kids the value of the hands - start with something like Go Fish (probability game) or Bourré, which is essentially a counting game.
You might also consider The Stars Are Right.
Top

Zinegata
  Prince
  Posts: 4071
  Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:33 am

###

- Quote

Post by Zinegata » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:04 pm

Not Munchkin please. It doesn't really have nice overall probabilities like the other games and rapidly becomes a "screw you!" game.
Use it if you're teaching game theory maybe, but not math and probabilities.
Top

Josh_Kablack
  King
  Posts: 5317
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: Online. duh

###

- Quote

Post by Josh_Kablack » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:50 pm

> Ancient History wrote:If you're using a deck of cards, don't start out with poker.

If you want to use an actual casino-type game, Blackjack is probably better. Using a single deck and 1 player and reshuflling after each hand the odds are pretty trivial. "how many of the card you want(or don't) are left in the deck" over how many "total cards are left in the deck". And then adding in a second player and their face down card provides an example of how the calculation stays the same even as hidden information complicates the game.
Alternately, Roulette provides a very easy to calculate example of The House Always Wins - which is the most important lesson to derive from studying the odds of casino games.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
Top

Ravengm
  Knight
  Posts: 386
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Ravengm » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:06 pm

> Josh_Kablack wrote:

> > Ancient History wrote:If you're using a deck of cards, don't start out with poker.

> If you want to use an actual casino-type game, Blackjack is probably better. Using a single deck and 1 player and reshuflling after each hand the odds are pretty trivial. "how many of the card you want(or don't) are left in the deck" over how many "total cards are left in the deck". And then adding in a second player and their face down card provides an example of how the calculation stays the same even as hidden information complicates the game.

Agreed with Blackjack. It only uses four cards at a time (assuming just the dealer and one player) before you start calculating probabilities. That, and all the choice is in the hands of the player.
Poker is significantly more complicated and only gets worse when you add in betting and reading of other people. The game is as much being able to tell what other people will do as it is statistics.

> Random thing I saw on Facebook wrote:Just make sure to compare your results from Weapon Bracket Table and Elevator Load Composition (Dragon Magazine #12) to the Perfunctory Armor Glossary, Version 3.8 (Races of Minneapolis, pp. 183). Then use your result as input to the "DM Says Screw You" equation.

Top

Ancient History
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 12708
  Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Ancient History » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:17 pm

Depends entirely on how you play. Professional poker is all about statistics. Bluffing is optional and not even remotely as important.
Top

Doom
  Duke
  Posts: 1470
  Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:52 pm
  Location: Baton Rouge

###

- Quote

Post by Doom » Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:44 pm

My vote is for yahtzee all the way, that game is just loaded with fun probability questions and calculations, which you can take from the basic level, to considering the second roll (i.e., conditional probability), to choosing which to roll for (i.e., expectations). I'm pretty sure you could blow a month on that one game, specifically.
Next up would be blackjack...poker's a real mess to address at the 6th grade level.

> Kaelik, to Tzor wrote: And you aren't shot in the face?

> Frank Trollman wrote:A government is also immortal ...On the plus side, once the United Kingdom is no longer united, the United States of America will be the oldest country in the world. USA!

Top

Cynic
  Prince
  Posts: 2776
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Cynic » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:35 pm

The idea is also to use one card game a week. Yahtzee is one of my choices but apparently I need to use a different game each week.

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

Top

Cynic
  Prince
  Posts: 2776
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Cynic » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:22 pm

Another question is Game creation. The end of the 9 weeks culminates in a presentation. So this basically means we create a game.
Can you guys give me a few pointers on creating a game?

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

Top

fectin
  Prince
  Posts: 3760
  Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

###

- Quote

Post by fectin » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:44 pm

There's another "house always wins" game which you can let them feel clever for figuring out: bet on the numbers 1-6. Each pays off 3:1. Roll 2 dice. Pay off any numbers that come up, collect the rest. How does the house win? (answer: on doubles).
Top

fectin
  Prince
  Posts: 3760
  Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:54 am

###

- Quote

Post by fectin » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:50 pm

Pass the pigs might be worthwhile. You'd have to make up probabilities, but you can teach expected values with it then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pass_the_Pigs
Also, shut the box:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shut_the_Box
And of course, backgammon.
Top

shadzar
  Prince
  Posts: 4922
  Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:08 pm

###

- Quote

Post by shadzar » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:28 am

> Cynic wrote:Another question is Game creation. The end of the 9 weeks culminates in a presentation. So this basically means we create a game.
> Can you guys give me a few pointers on creating a game?

Think we did this in the AP type classes back during 1st or 2nd grade to make a game. This was before I had played D&D, but knew about Craps, so made a game that had 3d6 to give more of a range than craps and had written up the probabilities for them.
The age range you are speaking of for 6~8 should be able to do that kind of thing by now if education has improved any over the last 30 years.
Looking at Eurogames, american board games, CCG and RPG, it seems the easiest would be to MAKE a CCG or board game. some simple game like Chutes and Ladders might be too simple in design for that age range, so what is the goal of the game itself, just to work, be appealing to the players/makers?
if you want to go for cheaper game to make that making playing pieces for a board game, then a card game might be better. Look how many can be played with just a poker deck.
Odds are that age range also has played some CCG, so might want to make something like it themselves, but it should be something with a standard deck with probabilities being one of each card, and after drawn it is discarded and not used again to keep the math learning down to simplest probability.
Play the game, not the rules.

> Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.

> Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.

good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
Top

Neeeek
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 900
  Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:45 am

###

- Quote

Post by Neeeek » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:38 am

Craps is generally the best probability instruction game there is, for beginners. Ignore everything but Pass/No Pass and Come/No Come, and you'll be fine.
Top

Zinegata
  Prince
  Posts: 4071
  Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:33 am

###

- Quote

Post by Zinegata » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:59 am

> Cynic wrote:Another question is Game creation. The end of the 9 weeks culminates in a presentation. So this basically means we create a game.
> Can you guys give me a few pointers on creating a game?

It's mostly about rules-writing. You should require your students to write a set of rules, and then provide the components.
Top

Nebuchadnezzar
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 723
  Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:23 am

###

- Quote

Post by Nebuchadnezzar » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:17 am

Craps can be a good game, with many examples of bets over a 2d6 RNG for students to get familiar with. Baccarat would be useful, showing the children the chart dealers learn so as to maintain the house advantage. I'm not sure I see the point of Uno, though.
Top
Post Reply

- Print view

Display:
Sort by:
Direction:

15 posts • Page 1 of 1

Return to “MPSIMS”

Jump to

- Main
- ↳ About the Gaming Den
- ↳ In My Humble Opinion...
- ↳ I Gave the Mouse a Cookie...
- ↳ In The Trenches
- ↳ It's My Own Invention...
- ↳ MPSIMS