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## Character Optimization request thread.

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Lago PARANOIA
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### Character Optimization request thread.

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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:23 pm

I guess I'll start.
I'd like a non-gestalt character around level 15 or 16 that has as many spell/power levels in psionics and magic as possible in order to abuse action loops unique to both systems. A heavy preference is given to arcane magic, since they have the best spells, but the important thing really is having access to as many wizardly spells as possible. So something like, say, a druid that cheesed his or her way into being able to snag whatever spells they want onto their list would work. A way for the character to quickly fire off spells as a swift or combined action without having to resort to metamagic rods or things like choker polymorphs or the PHBII celerity spells are a plus -- by this I mean things like Divine Metamagic: Quicken Spell, Battle Blessing, etc.. No Beholder Mage or level loss shenanigans, please.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Archmage Joda
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###

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Post by Archmage Joda » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:00 pm

Now, is Complete Psionic available? I am given to understand that the Ardent class therein has its power knowledge keyed to Manifester level specifically, so some manner of Cerebremancer using Ardent with Practiced Manifester feat would net you minimal loss on the wizardy side, while getting you a decent smattering of psionics.
Now, I must make a disclaimer: The most common source for me seeing such a build suggested was forums like brilliantgameologists, so consider the source and all that.
Just to at least attempt to help:
Human Ardent 1/Wizard 4/Cerebremancer 10
Feats:
H: Improved Initiative
1: Practiced Manifester
3: Extend Spell
6: I honestly know not, perhaps Craft Wondrous Item?
9: Quicken Spell
12: Easy Metamagic (Quicken Spell) (If dragon magazine materials are verboten, then switch human for silverbrow human and take Practical Metamagic, Races of the Dragon)
15: Insert feat of choice here
Some more info on what materials you are and are not taking into consideration would be helpful though.
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Lago PARANOIA
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###

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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:06 pm

Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention. Dragon stuff or stuff from really obscure books isn't forbidden, but try to take it easy on that stuff. Generally, I follow Frank's theory on Practical Optimization: it's not the brokenness or even the text volume so much as its the number of sources. Psionic Power + XPH kind of makes pickings past that slim on that front, though.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Archmage Joda
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Post by Archmage Joda » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:16 pm

Well, Ardent and Practiced Manifester are from Complete Psionic, Easy Metamagic is from some issue of Dragon (I remember not which one), and Practical Metamagic and Silverbrow Human are from Races of the Dragon. Aside from that, I tried to stay core.
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Aharon
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Post by Aharon » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:57 pm

PHB+Complete Mage, requires level 16 starting level
Complete mage has Arcane Fusion (5) and Greater Arcane Fusion (8)
Arcane Fusion lets you simultaneously cast a first and a fourth level spell, Greater Arcane fusion a fourth and a seventh level spell.
Putting in the arcane fusion into the greater arcane fusion nets you a first, two fourth and one sevenh level spell in a standard action.
If you add metamagic reducers from other sources, you can greatly increase the number of spells from that base.
This post is a very downstripped version of the following build:

> some guy on Gitp wrote: Ah yes, my level 25 build for the Town arena that won through sheer ridiculous damage output. I've learned better since then.
> How to build a truly ridiculous high epic blaster:
> 1) Start with Sorcerer.
> 2) Take Hail of Stone (Spell Compendium, level 1), Arcane Fusion (Complete Mage, level 5), and Greater Arcane Fusion (Complete Mage, level 8) among your spells known.
> 3) Take Arcane Thesis for each of the spells listed in step 2.
> 4) Take Rapid Metamagic, Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Intensify Spell, and many copies of Enhance Spell and Improved Metamagic.
> 5) Cast Twinned Repeated Greater Arcane Fusion from an 8th level slot.
> 6) Choose Twinned Repeated Arcane Fusion as the 7th level spell cast by Greater Arcane Fusion, and Twinned Repeated Intensified many-times-Enhanced (however many you can drop to 0 level increases with Improved Metamagic and Arcane Thesis) Hail of Stone for the 4th level or lower spell.
> 7) Choose Twinned Repeated Intensified many-times-Enhanced Hail of Stone for both the 1st level and 4th or lower spells from Arcane Fusion.
> 8) Laugh as your opponent is hit by thousands upon thousands of points of area effect no-save no-SR untyped damage from an instantaneous conjuration.
> 9) Add Quicken Spell, Arcane Spellsurge, Multispell, and Improved Spell Capacity to taste.
> I'd recommend 10 levels of Incantatrix and everything after that in Hathran if you go this route. Hathran's epic progression gives a bonus feat every two levels, and it's a full caster PrC with all the standard caster feats on its list.
> Note especially the no-SR part of point 8. That means magic immunity doesn't block it.
> As far as I know the ways to block this are limited to a) not being in the targeted area, b) being immune to absolutely all damage, and c) preventing the spell from taking effect at all with something like Globe of Invulnerability or an epic ward.
> Greater Arcane Fusion*2
> Arcane Fusion*4+Hail of Stone*4
> Hail of Stone*8+Hail of STone *8+Hail of Stone*4
> =Hail of Stone*20

Last edited by Aharon on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:05 pm

If you get dragon material, you can use
this guy:.
Free quickens by paying pp for metamagic, get BS save dc boosts, stack with cerebremancer to get double nines.
Fair warning:this class is batshit insane.

> OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
> -Sarpadian Empires, vol. I

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:49 pm

This isn't a request or anything, but you know what's odd? I've played and heard about games that use UA but the three most-used variants I've seen are:
[*] The flaws and traits system.
[*] Vancian -> Spell points.
[*] The gestalt system.
Yeah, I know. The most, second-most, and fifth-most overpowered variants in the system (I'd say that Taint would be the third-most or second-most and that the bloodlines would be right after that) are actually the most used systems in play. At least that's been my experience. Anyone else want to confirm or deny?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Wrathzog
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  Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:57 am

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Post by Wrathzog » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:19 pm

We tried Flaws out once but we all agreed that it had to be strictly regulated. It's a good idea but only in the hands of the responsible.
Have not tried out spell points... but no one's ever brought it up. Which is weird because a lot of my gaming group absolutely hates the vancian casting system and would probably like to use something else.
I DM'd for a Gestalt game and while it was fun, I'm never going to do it ever again.
PSY DUCK?
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Leress
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Post by Leress » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:52 am

I played in a star wars d20 game with bloodlines. I wasn't overpowered but the campaign didn't last long so I can't give a definite gauge on it.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

]

> The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.

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Antariuk
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Post by Antariuk » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:47 am

Traits/Flaws... I' unsure about this. We used it in two games, and both times it end up in cherrypicking. Maybe that's even the point? A few roleplaying fans aside, you will always try to minimize the negative impact of flaws on your character's combat survivability. So you end up with a -2 in stuff your character rarely does. But from what I heard, I'd agree that it is one of the most commonly used UA systems out there.
I always thought that Racial Paragon Classes can be outright brutal in the right hands. The first level of Half-Orc, Orc, or Drow Paragon are nothing to sneeze at. I played once in a short game where one player had this gish-like kind of drow character, and he kicked some serious ass (In retrospect, this might have been due to reasons different than the Paragon class, but at that time I was impressed).
Incantations also seem to have a lot of fans. Maybe that is because of E6 and how it fits nicely with giving people access to high-level stuff - if you call sidequesting to gather powerul dudes every time you need to have high-level magic "access".
Nevery participated in games using the spell point or gestalt rules, though.
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." - Steven Brust
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CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:54 am

Flaws are pretty much free shit.

> OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
> -Sarpadian Empires, vol. I

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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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Post by Kaelik » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:09 am

Flaws and gestalt are pretty much the two most used systems, but I don't know that either is really the most overpowered.
Domain Wizards probably are more overpowered as a variant, since Gestalt is supposed to modify CR, and flaws are just two feats, and if you aren't playing in a Tome game, that's not much.
I frankly refuse to even play in non Tome games that don't allow flaws, if you are unwilling to just give my Wizard three feats at level 1 because that would be too powerful, then I can be damn sure you aren't willing to deal with my druid casting good spells, using good wildshapes, and having a good AC.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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erik
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Post by erik » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:58 am

> CapnTthePirateG wrote:If you get dragon material, you can use
> this guy:.
> Free quickens by paying pp for metamagic, get BS save dc boosts, stack with cerebremancer to get double nines.
> Fair warning:this class is batshit insane.

But you have to suck in order to take it and then lose more caster/manifester levels on top of it all. I guess if you start at level umpteen as Lago is doing you bypass the excruciating task of surviving to even take it. But man, I'd never bother with that class if I had to play it organically. Hell, I don't think I'd bother with it starting at 15.
Unless you have some race/feat chicanery to get bypass the requirements, then you are looking at:
5 wizard, 3 psion
7 crap class
Giving you 10 levels of wizard casting, and 8 levels of psion... while trying to live in a level 15 world. Whyyyyyyyy? People are casting level 8 spells and you have... level 5's? Even quickened- No. Just no.
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Seerow
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Post by Seerow » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:13 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:This isn't a request or anything, but you know what's odd? I've played and heard about games that use UA but the three most-used variants I've seen are:
> [*] The flaws and traits system.
> [*] Vancian -> Spell points.
> [*] The gestalt system.
> Yeah, I know. The most, second-most, and fifth-most overpowered variants in the system (I'd say that Taint would be the third-most or second-most and that the bloodlines would be right after that) are actually the most used systems in play. At least that's been my experience. Anyone else want to confirm or deny?

I'm curious to hear the rationale of bloodlines being considered anything close to overpowered. I've always considered them weak to the point of not being worth using.
Also I see variant classes, spontaneous divine casters, and domain wizards more often than the ones you listed.
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CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:25 am

> erik wrote:

> > CapnTthePirateG wrote:If you get dragon material, you can use
> > this guy:.
> > Free quickens by paying pp for metamagic, get BS save dc boosts, stack with cerebremancer to get double nines.
> > Fair warning:this class is batshit insane.

> But you have to suck in order to take it and then lose more caster/manifester levels on top of it all. I guess if you start at level umpteen as Lago is doing you bypass the excruciating task of surviving to even take it. But man, I'd never bother with that class if I had to play it organically. Hell, I don't think I'd bother with it starting at 15.
> Unless you have some race/feat chicanery to get bypass the requirements, then you are looking at:
> 5 wizard, 3 psion
> 7 crap class
> Giving you 10 levels of wizard casting, and 8 levels of psion... while trying to live in a level 15 world. Whyyyyyyyy? People are casting level 8 spells and you have... level 5's? Even quickened- No. Just no.

What you do is you go Wizard 3/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 2/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer X. Although damn, I though he only lost 1 CL on each side, my bad.

> OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
> -Sarpadian Empires, vol. I

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rasmuswagner
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Post by rasmuswagner » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:39 am

> Seerow wrote: I'm curious to hear the rationale of bloodlines being considered anything close to overpowered. I've always considered them weak to the point of not being worth using..

It's not about the bloodline abilities, those are fairly irrelevant, it's all about "advancing class abilities" shenanigans. Same kind of build that uses Legacy Champion.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:47 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:This isn't a request or anything, but you know what's odd? I've played and heard about games that use UA but the three most-used variants I've seen are:
> [*] The flaws and traits system.
> [*] Vancian -> Spell points.
> [*] The gestalt system.
> Yeah, I know. The most, second-most, and fifth-most overpowered variants in the system (I'd say that Taint would be the third-most or second-most and that the bloodlines would be right after that) are actually the most used systems in play. At least that's been my experience. Anyone else want to confirm or deny?

That's pretty close to what I've seen in practice. I've also tried Recharge magic, which in many ways is better than SP. In a single encounter, SP is better, but throughout a day Recharge is awesome. Around 3rd or 5th level, you can have certain useful buffs up all day long.
Both systems pretty much neuter spontaneous casters by making prepared casters spontaneous with all of their previous flexibility. They both make it fun to play a caster, but also give you next to no reason to play anything else.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:03 pm

A slightly off topic question... does the Tome grapple rules still allow you to cast spells and use items while grappling? Or are you only allowed to do what is written there?
Last edited by Dominicius on Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wrathzog
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Post by Wrathzog » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:05 pm

> Kaelik wrote:I frankly refuse to even play in non Tome games that don't allow flaws, if you are unwilling to just give my Wizard three feats at level 1 because that would be too powerful, then I can be damn sure you aren't willing to deal with my druid casting good spells, using good wildshapes, and having a good AC.

So why even bother with flaws at that point? Let's skip the annoying middleman and go right to three feats at level 1.
PSY DUCK?
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:58 pm

> Wrathzog wrote:

> > Kaelik wrote:I frankly refuse to even play in non Tome games that don't allow flaws, if you are unwilling to just give my Wizard three feats at level 1 because that would be too powerful, then I can be damn sure you aren't willing to deal with my druid casting good spells, using good wildshapes, and having a good AC.

> So why even bother with flaws at that point? Let's skip the annoying middleman and go right to three feats at level 1.

Because I specified this is a non Tome game, so i's perfectly clear that the DM is one of those idiots who makes all balance determinations from within the subset of WotC published material with no ability to comprehend material outside it.
When I DM non Tome games I just tell people they get way more feats, but if I'm playing in a non Tome game, it's probably because the DM is one of those people who just never realized you can do things that WotC didn't explicitly give you permission to do.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Seerow
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Post by Seerow » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:03 pm

> rasmuswagner wrote:

> > Seerow wrote: I'm curious to hear the rationale of bloodlines being considered anything close to overpowered. I've always considered them weak to the point of not being worth using..

> It's not about the bloodline abilities, those are fairly irrelevant, it's all about "advancing class abilities" shenanigans. Same kind of build that uses Legacy Champion.

I'd like some sort of example, because as far as I'm aware bloodlines don't get access to that sort of shenanigans. They're basically templates that spread their LA out over the course of 20 levels, but are weaker than any similar LA race.
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Winnah
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Post by Winnah » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:13 pm

Bloodlines specifically increase abilities that have their functions determined by level.
Examples provided in UA include caster levels. Base spellcasting ability is not increased (no more spells/day or spells known), but they are cast at class level + bloodline level + other caster level modifiers.
Monk abilities, which have their uses per day and saving thows determined by level are also effected.
So...Pick a class, prestige class or combination that has class features specifically determined by character level or class level, then mix and match in order to exceed normal limitations. Hellfire Warlock is probably the most commonly touted example of bloodline manipulation that I have seen.
Last edited by Winnah on Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:21 pm

The thing about bloodlines is that they are like a Necropolitain or LA buyoff, in that they give random XP penalties at random points, but don't cost LA.
So if you actually played with them in a game, you would perpetually be a lower level than everyone else in the party, but because there is no explicit LA, everyone on char op boards wants to have sex with them, because when they hear "a level 10 character" they don't think about a character that has adventured with a party who are all level 10 now, they think anything with 10 levels and not 11 or 9.
So to them you can be a caster with 18 major bloodlines, and have a CL of 46 at level 10, even though that character would have had to collect enough XP to be level 20.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Winnah
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Post by Winnah » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:48 pm

Depending on how levels are determined and how XP is doled out, with regards lower level characters earning more from encounters, the loss of a small chunk of XP now and then, is not a major issue.
The last game I ran featuring a guy playing a character with a +1 level buyoff, the character effectively caught up to the rest of the party midway through level 6 or so. The party wizard was further on XP behind due to crafting, a level or two later in the campaign.
With bigger XP losses, closing that gap will take significantly longer. I'm not even sure how a major bloodline character would play out in that regard, as I have nothing to compare it to. Multiple major bloodlines...would be a ridiculous loss of XP, even within the context of some optimization experiment.
Personally, I would only use one of the 'make your own' bloodlines. Even then, only to shortcut qualification for some interesting PrC or Feat before the campaign ended.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:06 pm

> Winnah wrote:Depending on how levels are determined and how XP is doled out, with regards lower level characters earning more from encounters, the loss of a small chunk of XP now and then, is not a major issue.
> The last game I ran featuring a guy playing a character with a +1 level buyoff, the character effectively caught up to the rest of the party midway through level 6 or so. The party wizard was further on XP behind due to crafting, a level or two later in the campaign.
> With bigger XP losses, closing that gap will take significantly longer. I'm not even sure how a major bloodline character would play out in that regard, as I have nothing to compare it to. Multiple major bloodlines...would be a ridiculous loss of XP, even within the context of some optimization experiment.
> Personally, I would only use one of the 'make your own' bloodlines. Even then, only to shortcut qualification for some interesting PrC or Feat before the campaign ended.

A single Major bloodline requires you to spend a whole level of XP once every 4 levels.
So a level 7 character would have had to light a level of XP on fire at level 3 and level 6. Unlike +1 LA buyoff, the fact that you have to keep doing it every few levels means you will never catch up. A Medium/Minor bloodline would have you behind most of the time, and you'd catch up for like a level, and then immediately have to spend again.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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