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## Anatomy of Failed Design: Enemies and Allies

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NativeJovian
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Post by NativeJovian » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:24 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:This NPC book would ideally have ways for you to tweak said guard with minimal effort so that while they are still recognizable L3 Human Guards they are still noticably different from each other.

Er, do you really need a whole book for that? You can just DO that. Say "this one has a polearm and Improved Trip" or "this one has two short swords and Twin Weapon Fighting" or "this one has a heavy shield and fights defensively" and you're basically done. Sure, there's still not a whole lot of difference between them and they're all still "level 3 human guardsman", but I don't think having a book full of ready made "level 3 human guardsman" variants is going to fix that. Nor is it really a problem -- it's perfectly fine to label someone "mook, guardsman, level 3" and get on with stabbing them.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:27 pm

> NJ wrote:Er, do you really need a whole book for that?

No. But that's not the only stuff that's going to be in the book.
All of the tables for tweaking aren't probably going to be more than 20 to 30 pages if they're done right.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:30 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote: This NPC book would ideally have ways for you to tweak said guard with minimal effort so that while they are still recognizable L3 Human Guards they are still noticably different from each other. He's a mook so doesn't need to be run through the monster generation system nor does the DM have to spend more than 20 seconds thinking of ways to differentiate his mook.

Well basically what you're talking about here is either a fucking mountain of statblocks for different guard types, whcih is honestly inefficient and a bad idea. Or you're talking about the book having variant monster creation/editing systems that are faster.
And that's my idea. Dedicate the book to writing a good system, not just to making a bunch of stat blocks and hoping that you may create 2-3 useful NPCs for a campaign out of the 60 you wrote.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:36 pm

> RC2 wrote: Well basically what you're talking about here is either a fucking mountain of statblocks for different guard types, whcih is honestly inefficient and a bad idea. Or you're talking about the book having variant monster creation/editing systems that are faster.

It's not a creation system, it's a tweaking system. It's not really even a tweaking system, since you roll on the table and it tells you what to add/change. Is it less versatile than just doing it your damn self? Yes. Does it save time? If it's written and balanced well then it should.
If the actual result is statblocks like the Enemies and Allies book has then it's a waste of time and we should've just printed a monster manual. But it's not. It's just supposed to be a way to tell DMs 'THESE mook guardsmen fight in a phalanx.Tweak this.'; 'THESE mook guardsmen charge in and try to grapple. Tweak this.' This kind of functionality is a waste of space in an actual Monster Manual but it would actually be useful in this kind of book.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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NativeJovian
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Post by NativeJovian » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:54 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:

> > NJ wrote:But you're talking about famous public domain characters like Dracula and Robin Hood -- character archetypes who should really be main characters, if not the focus of the whole campaign.

> > and they're not likely to stumble across the PCs by accident so you should have plenty of time to stat them out beforehand.

> Why?

Because they're freaking heroes and/or villains, that's why. If Robin Hood is just a random encounter accosting your PCs while they're traveling through the woods, he's not Robin Hood anymore, he's "generic rogue archer bandit". The whole point of those public domain characters is that they're recognized and well-liked. If you put Dracula in your campaign, the PCs are going to want to hunt him down and stake him, because that's what you do to Dracula if you're a hero. You could have Dracula in your campaign as a random baddie or a sidequest or something, but if you do, he's "generic charismatic vampire" instead of Dracula proper. Using public domain characters as random throw-away parts is a waste, and if it's not just a throw-away part then you can plan for it and design the character before the session starts.

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Robin Hood in a Dark Sun campaign is going to have a difference inn appearance, backstory, and hopefully behavior than one in a Forgotten Realms campaign. There's no way you can do better than an 'almost right'. This applies to any NPC not specifically designed for your setting.

Which is why you design one for the setting you're using yourself.

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:If the actual result is statblocks like the Enemies and Allies book has then it's a waste of time and we should've just printed a monster manual. But it's not. It's just supposed to be a way to tell DMs 'THESE mook guardsmen fight in a phalanx.Tweak this.'; 'THESE mook guardsmen charge in and try to grapple. Tweak this.' This kind of functionality is a waste of space in an actual Monster Manual but it would actually be useful in this kind of book.

Again, why do you need a book for that? It's not particularly difficult to do those tweaks yourself. Phalanx fighters fight in close ranks, with the outer edges hiding behind tower shields and the inner core using reach weapons to stab anyone who tries to hack their way through the outer edges. Grapplers have high strength, the Improved Grapple feat, and maybe tumble ranks or something to get past enemies and reach their primary targets without taking hits. Guerrilla types use shortspears or handaxes that can be used equally well in melee or at range, and attack hit-and-run style from cover or ambush. You're almost certainly going to have a better idea what you need for a particular situation than any book can come up with, so why bother with the book at all?
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:07 pm

> NJ wrote:Using public domain characters as random throw-away parts is a waste,

But that's exactly how NPCs are supposed to work in campaign books. That's why they are statted out ahead of time. They can be masterminds or main characters in a plot. Or you catch them taking a shit in the woods and Artemis Enteri ends up dead in a ditch with his dick hanging out just because they're there. Let's not be all snobby about this process.

> NJ wrote:Which is why you design one for the setting you're using yourself.

But even so, Robin Hood is still going to be a stealthy woodsman who uses a bow, is good at fighting with improvised weapons but probably has a sword he stole from a Moor, leads like tiny men, and Flynns like no one's business. There's no need to go through all that rigmarole PLUS the necessary adaptations every time you want a Robin Hood in your campaign.

> NJ wrote:You're almost certainly going to have a better idea what you need for a particular situation than any book can come up with, so why bother with the book at all?

But if you can't or if you don't have the time to spare then the book's got your back.
Some DMs are just not good at coming up with mechanics or tweaks on the fly. The bitter controversies over the 3E/4E systems should make that obvious.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:26 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote: It's not a creation system, it's a tweaking system. It's not really even a tweaking system, since you roll on the table and it tells you what to add/change. Is it less versatile than just doing it your damn self? Yes. Does it save time? If it's written and balanced well then it should.

Well call it what you will, but basically it entails derailing 3E from its current creation system and going to something a bit more arbitrary. The current system is far too interconnected to make tweaking easy, witjh all sorts of feat, ability score prereqs that you have to worry about. So pretty much you're basically writing a new creation system, or at least giving your new tweak system permission to ignore the old one. At least, if you want to have a good tweak system.
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NativeJovian
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Post by NativeJovian » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:38 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:But that's exactly how NPCs are supposed to work in campaign books. That's why they are statted out ahead of time.

Sure -- if you have an NPC, then he belongs in the world, and you can encounter him in that world. But the point I'm trying to make is that if you have a specific NPC that you know you want in the world, then you can stat him out beforehand. It's literally impossible for the PCs to run into an important character by accident. The DM is the one who decides who the PCs run into -- so if you want to have them run into Robin Hood shitting in the woods, then you can stat out Robin Hood and have the PCs catch him wiping his ass. If the PCs are just wandering around in the woods, though, and you want to switch things up by having them run into some random guy in the woods, it can really be some random guy in the woods. It can be "generic level 3 human guardsman" with an axe and a bow instead of a sword and a shield. There's no reason for it to be Robin Hood unless you planned for it to be -- and if you planned for it to be, there's no reason for you to be unprepared for it.

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:There's no need to go through all that rigmarole PLUS the necessary adaptations every time you want a Robin Hood in your campaign.

Well, given the number of characters we're talking about here (from Robin Hood to Dracula to Hercules and back again), and that each has to be tweaked not only for the setting you're using but for the level of your PCs, I honestly can't see how it would work without just making it into another Monster Manual, this time featuring humanoids.

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:.Some DMs are just not good at coming up with mechanics or tweaks on the fly.

Sure, which is why I think a Monster Manual type thing for generic encounters (the "mid level general arcane caster" and "high level heavy melee specialist" from a few posts ago) isn't a bad idea. But you keep insisting that that's not what you mean. The "tweaking" idea is dumb (you seriously don't NEED a book to tell you give this guy Improved Grapple and high strength if you want him to grapple people, or a ranged weapon and increased speed if you want him to hit-and-run, or whatever), and the iconic character stable will never be able to work like you want it too because you'll always have to adjust the character to fit your setting and your PCs, and they'll never be able to fit EVERY iconic character into a book anyway, so you might as well just do it yourself.
It sounds like what you're saying is that you never want to have to design an NPC from scratch, but should only have to tweak pre-existing designs. That is, frankly, lazy and unreasonable. There's no way in hell that anyone could ever satisfy the combination of being specific enough to make you happy ("I want an NPC recognizable as Robin Hood!") and still general enough to meet your requirements ("and he should be able to fit into Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft and Planescape too! And fight my PCs no matter what their level is!").
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K
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Post by K » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:16 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:

> > Dracula wrote: For example, a Dark Sun Dracula is going to be so different in stats from a Ravenloft Dracula

> Um, why? Now while I do believe that there should definitely be some tweaking to the stats for these two Draculas, the important features about Dracula is that he drinks blood and has a lot of ridiculous vampire power. Anything other than that is negotiable and should be left up to the DM. And you know what? The things that would be in common to the Dark Sun and Ravenloft Dracula would obviously be what gives the character a 'Dracula' feel. Dracula would not cease to become Dracula because he set up shop in Babylon or he carried a katana and wore wicker armor.

Man, where to start?
Sure, there is a chunk of stats that are the same. Vampires suck blood and are hard to kill and that stuff ports in very well. Dracula's hyno powers are also part of his "Dracula-ness" and also make the cut.
Then things get hard. The Ravenloft Dracula is a European knight and gets statted out as such, and maybe we add in some storm power for fans of Coppola. He turns into wolves and bats, and that crap needs to statted out.
The Dark Sun Dracula is a desert nomad and gets statted out as a dual-wielding scimitar fighter and maybe some desert powers like control over duststorms and sandwaves, and he needs stats for turning into some crazy Dark Sun crap like a siltstrider.
The Babylonian Dracula is a spear and shield fighter, and gets statted out for jackal and buzzard forms. Maybe he gets weird river and water controlling powers.
When the basic Dracula chassis of "vampire warlord who seduces chicks" hits the campaign, then the statting work begins and thats why I don't need an NPC book.
The rest of his backstory is plot and I don't need stats for that. Dracula's unrequited love is brought back by the Mists in Ravenloft, by psionic curse in Darksun, and by Egyptian reincarnation in Babylon, and all that is flavor and doesn't require any work.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:37 pm

> NJ wrote: Sure -- if you have an NPC, then he belongs in the world, and you can encounter him in that world. But the point I'm trying to make is that if you have a specific NPC that you know you want in the world, then you can stat him out beforehand. It's literally impossible for the PCs to run into an important character by accident. The DM is the one who decides who the PCs run into -- so if you want to have them run into Robin Hood shitting in the woods, then you can stat out Robin Hood and have the PCs catch him wiping his ass.

Most DMs are very deliberate about when and where they insert dragons into their campaign, to the point where a lot of people get butthurt if dragons aren't a plot centerpiece of some sort. So why doesn't a DM just stat up a new and unique monster instead of going to the monster manual?
And this goes back to my central point; the point of having an NPC book or even A Frickin' Monster Manual is so that everyone is on the same page when these things happen.

> NJ wrote:There's no way in hell that anyone could ever satisfy the combination of being specific enough to make you happy ("I want an NPC recognizable as Robin Hood!") and still general enough to meet your requirements ("and he should be able to fit into Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft and Planescape too! And fight my PCs no matter what their level is!").

That's the problem with constructing strawmen, especially when it concerns what people will be satisfied with. Because they're easy to knock over.
Here's the bare-minimumness of Robin Hood I expect from a Robin Hood NPC.
- Expert with a bow and arrow.
- Really good at stealth and tracking.
- Charismatically inspires tiny men.
- Declared an outlaw.
- Steals from the rich and gives to the poor.
- Wears green.
See? That's all I want out of a Robin Hood. Are you seriously trying to tell me that this character can't be directly transplanted into a variety of D&D settings?
Some people will try to insert more Robin Hood mythos into the character. He might be trying to restore a rightful king to the throne, he might be seducing some fair maiden of a country, he might be friends with a mysterious foreigner from a southern continent. Whatever, that's their perogative.
For other campaigns, Robin Hood can be Indian and/or be able to cast dark magic, have a divine imperative from some sky god, hunts dragons in his spare time, or be twelve years old.
But again, that's beyond the scope of the book. We figure out the bare minimum of what makes Robin Hood Robin Hood, stick that into a book, and let people work things out from there.

> K wrote: When the basic Dracula chassis of "vampire warlord who seduces chicks" hits the campaign, then the statting work begins and thats why I don't need an NPC book.

How much statting work can be cut down though, really?
Even with all of the settings you gave, there are going to be some constants. Dracula will always be level 7 or 13 or whatever. Dracula will always have dominate and animate dead. Dracula will always have a small list of spells he can draw on. Dracula will always be able to transform into a giant bat.
Some of the stuff you mentioned can be cut down even further. Dracula doesn't need a 'summon duststorms'/'control river and water'/'summon ominous fog' power. He just needs a robust Control Weather power that has a wide reach or whatever.
The other stuff you mentioned is just frippery. Does it really require an overhaul of the whole stat block to put Dracula in wicker armor and dual katanas? No. If you have a marginally sane NPC-creation system in place already that shit shouldn't even take very long. But you've still saved five or so minutes on the Dracula must-haves.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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