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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:43 pm

> Prak wrote: I pegged the petrification ability to when an MM medusa would be playable by tome rules.

This assumes both that a medusa's CR from the MM in any way corresponds to what would be reasonable for a PC to do and that the Tome's single-approach-for-all-monsters actually works in this case.
If you're aiming for a PC, I'd look at what PCs actually do. They get that ability around level 11 or 12, and it's not at-will.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:02 pm

I've always wanted to create a blue mage class that can pick up enemy attacks but that's been a stumbling block, finding a reasonably level to have these attacks but without breaking the game in half. Although be honest whenever there's a blue mage class in a FF game I use it to break the game in half so maybe that's the point.
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Post by DSMatticus » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:22 pm

The difference between being petrified forever and being stunned for 3d4+1 rounds is fluffy noncombat bullshit. The difference between being petrified forever and being nauseated for 1d4+1 rounds is that being nauseated will let you make a piss-poor attempt to run away, and maybe you will get another action before the fight is technically over but long after it's actually decided (because all your friends are dead and/or you've been getting wailed on). Almost everything is one failed saving throw away from being down for the ten count, and the question of whether or not they can stand back up after that ten count is just a question about whether or not they end up dead or a prisoner. Differentiating between the various effects that remove people from combat is only a useful balance consideration in that some effects have less common immunities.
It's worth noting that the medusa's gaze does not make a reference to the rules for flesh to stone (which only works on creatures made of flesh), nor does it make any reference to living or unliving creatures. A medusa's gaze attack Just Works(tm). This is pretty powerful - be blind, be immune to petrification, or get fucked. It's certainly more powerful than stinking cloud, which affects only living creatures that aren't immune to poison. But it's not game-breakingly more powerful, just the regular kind of more powerful.
No, the really, really, really big deal with the medusa is that they break the action economy. The medusa doesn't need an action to use their AoE save-or-get-fucked. It's just a thing that is on, all the time, fucking people who fail their saves. If you give a medusa level appropriate actions, the medusa will take those actions in addition to being a mobile death field. If you don't give a medusa any level appropriate actions, they're a boring as shit one-trick pony who gets hardcountered to hell the first time they run into something that can't be gaze attacked.
Being able to cast stinking cloud except it petrifies motherfuckers at level 5-7 is not at all broken. Being able to cast two stinking clouds at level 5-7 is pretty goddamn broken. And therein lies the problem with making a medusa that isn't ass - a gaze attack is a free AoE SoD every round on top of what else the character can do.
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Post by tussock » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:19 am

@Ogrebattle, no, point buy systems are a bit of a disaster with powers like this, because it's only part of the Medusa's budget and so you can usually make an otherwise hopeless character who rides around on other character's shoulders but also has a medusa's gaze and isn't even a starting character so you can buy them as a cheap ally for a fraction of the cost of the medusa's gaze. Point buy is ... you have to agree to not do stuff like that with it, which requires a fair bit of system mastery just to create starting characters which aren't either completely useless or completely amazeballs.
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What works, is AD&D style dual-classing. Not the finer points of it, as I am required to point out every time, their costs and requirements and no-backsies and so on aren't that great, but the idea that you gestalt together your first level 9 thing with another level 9 thing by buying the second one up from level 1, and it costs you overall about 2 or 3 levels off the single-class peak to do that, and then you just carry on with the second one, or the first one, and close that gap afterward as your remaining level 9 thing becomes less relevant.
So, it's like those 3e multiclass-patch PClasses, only as a general solution that will have more problem cases because it has more freedom, but does has a lot of freedom.
Cover being a Barbarian + Fighter + Ranger, because those don't gestalt well, via having "Barbarian" and "Ranger" just be a few Fighter feats each, similarly for minor variants of other significant classes. Make sure that Giants actually have powers that Fighters don't have, like being a juggernaut, or unmovable, or sweeping blows, or throwing huge things, or fear effects, or whatever, so your monsters are maybe already Giant+Fighter, or Giant+Cleric, in the monster manual, and your normal characters start out as Human+Wizard or Dwarf+Rogue. Bla bla bla.
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Post by Username17 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:47 am

> Tussock wrote:What works, is AD&D style dual-classing. Not the finer points of it, as I am required to point out every time, their costs and requirements and no-backsies and so on aren't that great, but the idea that you gestalt together your first level 9 thing with another level 9 thing by buying the second one up from level 1, and it costs you overall about 2 or 3 levels off the single-class peak to do that, and then you just carry on with the second one, or the first one, and close that gap afterward as your remaining level 9 thing becomes less relevant.

It's good to see Tussock going back to being completely fucking wrong about everything. It gives my day structure.
Anyway, there are abilities that are relevant at higher levels and there are abilities that are not relevant at higher levels. Bonuses, in particular are relevant if they add up to allowing level appropriate actions, are OP if they add up to doing better than that, and are effectively worthless if they add up to still not being level appropriate actions. That should not be controversial.
So when you have classes where some of them are giving abilities that are a series of bonuses and other classes where the abilities are stand alone actions, dual classing is obviously problematic. If you gestalt two bonus classes, your total bonuses might end up higher or lower than if you'd just played a single class straight - and either way that's broken. If you gestalt stand alone action classes, then you end up with a lot more stand alone actions, and that's broken if those are relevant and it's broken in a different way if they are not relevant.
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Post by Emerald » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:48 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:So when you have classes where some of them are giving abilities that are a series of bonuses and other classes where the abilities are stand alone actions, dual classing is obviously problematic. If you gestalt two bonus classes, your total bonuses might end up higher or lower than if you'd just played a single class straight - and either way that's broken. If you gestalt stand alone action classes, then you end up with a lot more stand alone actions, and that's broken if those are relevant and it's broken in a different way if they are not relevant.
> -Username17

Is that issue the only big problem with the dual-classing approach, such that if you designed your classes (and monsters) to all have roughly the same proportion of active abilities and passive bonuses as each other it could work out? Because common gestalt advice is to combine one "active" class and one "bonus" class for a good mix of abilities and it seems to work pretty well, so I'd image that if every class was itself a roughly even partly-active-partly-bonus mix the dual-class setup would work similarly well.
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Post by Username17 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:31 pm

> Emerald wrote:Is that issue the only big problem with the dual-classing approach, such that if you designed your classes (and monsters) to all have roughly the same proportion of active abilities and passive bonuses as each other it could work out? Because common gestalt advice is to combine one "active" class and one "bonus" class for a good mix of abilities and it seems to work pretty well, so I'd image that if every class was itself a roughly even partly-active-partly-bonus mix the dual-class setup would work similarly well.

Hell no. It's the tip of the iceberg. If you did give every class and monster type some roughly static number of passive bonuses for going up in level, the gestalt player would always have more than their fair share of bonuses at higher levels because 2(x-y) grows faster than 1(x) as x increases.
But let's talk about stand alone abilities for a moment. Imagine for the moment that there were abilities that were actually balanced at specific levels. I know, crazy right? Now if you don't have abilities that are appropriate for your level because you are two classes and not one, then your abilities aren't balanced at your level. Now imagine instead that characters were somehow balanced by the number of abilities they got. Now if you get abilities at twice the rate (even if you start behind by some amount), you're going to rapidly get to the point where you have noticeably more total abilities and there is no balance of that sort.
Imagine that your characters were 4e characters, because it's a simple system. A Wizard and a Rogue aren't particularly different, they both get bonuses for going up in levels and they both have abilities that they pick up most levels. A level 5 ability is better than a level 1 ability, but you still use your level 1 ability at level 5 because use limits are much harsher than battle lengths. Now imagine the characters are like level 12 and you offer one of the players the ability to be two different level 9 character classes instead. Boom, that gestalt character has bonuses that are way off the chart compared to the other characters and has way more uses per combat of their special powers. The other players have a paragon doohickey and he doesn't, but the dual classed character is completely obviously superior to the single classed paragon characters. It's not even funny.
It's possible of course to construct games in a way where the opposite is true. Where you need to have the 9th level ability "penetrate Damage Reduction of creatures that need you to be 9th level to inflict damage" or you can absolutely go get fucked when level appropriate monsters show up. In that circumstance, the character who has two classes worth of 7th level bullshit just doesn't matter at 9th level. But it's virtually impossible to design or even imagine a system in which dual classing is remotely balanced with single classing. You're asking for a solution to the equation:

- 2(X-Y)^N == (X)^N

And while there are fixed integer solutions to that, there are no solutions that work for multiple values of X (other than trivial bullshit like "N = 0").
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:37 am

So in a low level "no caster classes" pathfinder game starting at lvl 2 how does the Slayer compare to the Ninja? Looking to build a character that can fight at range, in melee, and has scouting ability out of combat.
Does Fighter1/Ninja1 bring anything that slayer doesn't?
Last edited by OgreBattle on Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Antariuk
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Post by Antariuk » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:26 am

The Slayer needs a few levels to become interesting, so at 2nd level the Ninja might be a more interesting choice. The Sniper archetype is very good for ranged builds, but at 2nd level you're missing the sneak attack dice for it's main feature to work. If the plan is to advance to higher levels, the Stygian Slayer archetype is also pretty good for an infiltration style character (and it combines nicely with Sniper).
Purely looking at 2nd level, I'd go with an UnRogue, no reason not to get Weapon Finesse for free, and you can still have Ninja Tricks if you want.
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:45 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:You're asking for a solution to the equation:
> - 2(X-Y)^N == (X)^N
> And while there are fixed integer solutions to that, there are no solutions that work for multiple values of X (other than trivial bullshit like "N = 0").

Wolframalpha says the solution is ...
Y = (1 - 2^(1/N))X
For positive X and N. Which, yes they are. That does indeed work, I even checked.
Obviously you'd want that built into the XP table, but it's not that hard. I mean, you're right that it's not an integer solution, but you can obviously stay within half a level of power at all times, which is probably better than your power margins on single class characters in the first place outside anything like 4e (or also in 4e as written).
In more general terms, for Z(X-Y)^N = X^N the solution is
Y = (1 - Z^(1/N))X
In case they don't add everything. Now, if things add very differently, you need to balance for the best way to add them and the rest become trap options, but that's matter of either pointing out the traps (with suggested or enforced dual-class options that just fucking work), or making sure none of your classes overlap too much in the first place and everyone just has to get a reasonable package if they do that.
At a design level, you can just fucking compare the dual class options to the single class options as you go, and note how many levels behind they should roughly be to not be stupidly weak or strong. And yes, that's a problem with 40 classes because 40^2 is not something you can check, but if you have some sort of decent option for being more than one class in your game most of those vanish anyway, a lot of them are effectively just a dual-class in one.
The way they built things for the 3.5 PClass factory which let your multiclass characters work at all, that would suggest (given N ~= 1.4) a Z of 1.4 or so for 3e, a second class being worth a bit under half the first, so you're 3-4 levels behind at higher level as a dual-class, which might've been too harsh really, but obviously, duh, it works.
The sort of XP table that has you fall behind appropriately in two classes is also pretty easy to construct, though it could make the awarding of XP slightly more complicated to fit it nicely, it wouldn't be any worse than 3e and would at least have a purpose.
--
There are indeed issues around "you must be this tall to ride" powers, but as 3e showed, you don't even need powers or monsters like that in the game (DR 5/+1 3e instead of +1 required to hit from AD&D), and if you want to sandbox at all it's probably better not to. Things should generally have workarounds that make it harder for slightly low level folks, rather than suddenly impossible, and then don't build powers into the game which ignore that difficulty.
Hell, I bet there's even a solution for 4e, no matter how you stacked the powers. Every power is effectively somewhat better than the at-will stuff, and the daily powers are somewhat better than the encounter powers, and the reduction in damage for losing out on the level bonus is entirely predictable. I just don't care enough about 4e to figure it out.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:45 pm

If you wanted a mech combat subsystem in an rpg, what would you want/need it to do? Gathering opinions.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:30 pm

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:If you wanted a mech combat subsystem in an rpg, what would you want/need it to do? Gathering opinions.

I'd want transition of badassery from on-foot to mech combat. I.e., you use the same skills to pilot mechs as you'd use to run around and shoot without mechs. Depending on the genre relationship between on-foot dudes and mechs should be different. You can have Titanfall/Gurren Lagan style game where sufficiently badass people can kill mechs. Or you can have Cthulhutech style game where the only way to fight a mech is to have your own mech.
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:43 pm

It has to have location based damage (ie rocket launcher damaged or damage to targeting computer). Straight hit point damage is garbage for mechs.
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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:59 pm

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:If you wanted a mech combat subsystem in an rpg, what would you want/need it to do? Gathering opinions.

Use the same rules as monsters.
As deaddmwalking said, HP by location, though. So if you have monsters lacking in such things, rectify that too.

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Post by Voss » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:56 pm

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:If you wanted a mech combat subsystem in an rpg, what would you want/need it to do? Gathering opinions.

Read the various palladium books that deal with mechs (ok, one of them, because they're largely the same and the differences don't matter) then... don't do that. Any of it.
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:38 am

Koumei wrote up some decent Vehicle use rules for their d20 40k content. Mechs/vehicles simply add a bunch of bonuses to several attributes (e.g. speed). Probably the best vehicle rules I've seen for any tabletop game, because they were so easy to understand and explain.
Dungeoun Crusade Repair & Pilot skills
from http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49 ... c&start=50

> Repair (Int):
> A DC 10 Repair check can be used to un-jam a jammed weapon* (1 round)
> A DC 15 Repair check can fix a broken weapon to be usable for 2d6 rounds (3 rounds)
> A DC 20 Repair check can negate one "status condition" on a vehicle (1 minute)
> A DC 25 Repair check can properly fix a damaged weapon, set of armour, or small piece of equipment (5 minutes)
> Repairing a Vehicle: make a check (this takes 10 minutes). Subtract 20 from your result. That many Hit Points are restored to the vehicle. It can't be Wrecked, however.
> *Usually this will happen as a result of a spell/effect, or DM fiat.
> ---
> Pilot (Dex):
> Normally, piloting a vehicle in regular conditions requires no roll if you have even a single rank in Pilot. If you don't, you'd be lucky to get it moving in the first place, and then it's a DC 10 check per minute (otherwise it stalls or spins out or whatever).
> If a vehicle has the hatch open and is hit by an area effect ability, a DC 15 Pilot check is required to prevent the crew from being affected (not an action).
> Pilot checks to keep control of a vehicle in difficult situations:
> Make a DC 10 check, with modifiers for all of the following that apply:
> Difficult Terrain: +3
> Dangerous Terrain: +5
> Sudden Turns: +2
> Concealment: +10
> Full Concealment/Blind: +20 (does not stack with Concealment)
> Vehicle is taking Continuing Damage: +Damage
> Hit by Ordinance Weapons: +10 (Vehicle-Mounted-Only Heavy)

Landspeeder

> Land Speeder:
> Maximum Speed: Fly 250' (Average)
> Armour: +4
> Size: Large (Long)
> Carry Capacity: 1 pilot, 1 gunner
> HP: 25 Temp: 50
> Fort +1 Ref +4 Will +2
> *Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta
> *Heavy Flamer or Ass Cannon or Twin-linked Missile Launchers

Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:01 am

Koumei writes some good rules, but I'm looking for something I can steal and use in something I'm making a half-assed attempt to sell. Assuming of course my auto-immune disorder doesn't make me sleep for a week straight again, or I can't conquer my lifelong case of CBA (Can't Be Arsed).
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:16 am

You'll probably need to make something based on the system you're using; but looking at existing stuff that works is going to be better than making it whole cloth. I've added the Repair & Pilot rules, as well as the landspeeder entry to my previous post.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:35 am

Mechs need facing and hit locations like they were an RPG made in the early eighties.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:51 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:Mechs need facing and hit locations like they were an RPG made in the early eighties.
> -Username17

I think it really depends on the style of the game. MechWarrior style mechs definitiely need that, but do you really want to bog down your Evangelion anime mech combat with facing rules?
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Post by Starmaker » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:13 am

> Longes wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote:Mechs need facing and hit locations like they were an RPG made in the early eighties.
> > -Username17

> I think it really depends on the style of the game. MechWarrior style mechs definitiely need that, but do you really want to bog down your Evangelion anime mech combat with facing rules?

Facing, maybe not, hit locations, definitely yes. For any drama to be found in mech combat, they need to have hit locations, suffer damage to specific systems, and have said systems stop functioning or even do additional damage. Have a system destroyed, replace it with something not quite the same, possibly better, experimental, more dangerous. Get hit in the legs, bam, no more walking, then the battle goes bad and evacuation is necessary and you're shouting over the intercom like a proper anime teen how you don't need rescuing but they rescue you anyway. Get hit in the engine, power the mech with your lifeforce or something, go emo afterward because you lost part of your soul. Mecha anime with child soldiers is ultimately about damage, and damage needs to be visible. Hit points won't do.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:04 pm

No argument on hit locations.
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Post by Username17 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:55 pm

everything Starmaker said about Hit Locations. Facing is also important because even if you aren't using your mechs as tank or battleship metaphors you still want to tell stories where infantry interact with the mechs in some way. And that means that they need to position themselves somewhere where they can attack the mech's weak point.
Getting behind or above the mech is really important, and that has to actually matter. So you need facing rules.
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Post by Stahlseele » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:05 pm

Evangelion is the worst. possible. example. EVER! For anything mechabased.
They have no systems being damaged. They are not machines. They are celestial bioengineered things and the metallic bits on the outside are not armor as much as they are constraints. HITPOINTS is perfectly fine for EVAs. And they run on batteries. PATHETIC! Also no built in weaponry at all. Aside from the shield maybe. Again, Hitpoints for the Shield is perfectly valid for EVAs to use. And HP for the actual chassis. And then you have a simple turn limit for when you run out of battery.
Now MECHS, actual MACHINES . . yes, they so need to use Facing and hit locations. And fucking tons of subsystem damage effects. Because, honestly? THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT!
If you do not use that stuff, then you are not playing a game with Mechs.
At that point, they become setpieces. THINGS (TM) that are around in the background in a vain attempt to make it more scifi and awesome.
See Titans in WH40K. There is no meaningfull weaponry around for normal 40K boardgaming to actually hurt a titan. Much less take out. And the scale difference is such that the entire battle between two 1500 pts armies could take place inside one of them.
And when you want to play with Titans, you go straight back to Facing. Hitlocations. Subsystem damage effects. Weapon-Templates.
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> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Post by OgreBattle » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:43 pm

Mecha customization is important.
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