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Digestor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Digestor » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:27 pm

> Zherog wrote:
> You're free to believe whatever you want, of course. I'll opt to believe that you could move from Northern California to Nebraska or Wyoming or Washington or wherever else and the rent and taxes in both places (CA and wherever you end up) will remain unchanged.

sure thing, I'll ditch my only family and friends here on this hemisphere to move to a state that I have no clue about, with no idea for a job, and live completely on my own.
Hey, its cheaper, right?
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tzor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by tzor » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:30 pm

> Digestor at [unixtime wrote:1176751641[/unixtime]]sure thing, I'll ditch my only family and friends here on this hemisphere to move to a state that I have no clue about, with no idea for a job, and live completely on my own.

Cool, I'll let Key West, Florida know you're comming.
Oh yea, Key West isn't cheaper.
I'll let Big Pine Key, Florida know you're comming.
You'll love it. The weather is wonderful and the deer are short and cute.
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ninjasuperspy
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by ninjasuperspy » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:59 pm

This is completely off topic at this point, but as far as I understand, the sealab/mole-machine/zepplin thing came about due to land rights issues. The Intro to Lawrence Lessig's Free Culture mentions that antiquated property rights extended from the core of the earth to "an indefinite extent, upwards."
When airplanes were invented, people apparently tried to either sell rights to fly over land they owned or to deny access to air travel companies. The Supreme Court then was forced to rule that existing property rights needed an amendment in the face of new technology and ownership of land was changed to owning the surface only.
So I guess they applied it to tax codes as well.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:24 pm

> Digestor at [unixtime wrote:1176751641[/unixtime]]

> > Zherog wrote:
> > You're free to believe whatever you want, of course. I'll opt to believe that you could move from Northern California to Nebraska or Wyoming or Washington or wherever else and the rent and taxes in both places (CA and wherever you end up) will remain unchanged.

> sure thing, I'll ditch my only family and friends here on this hemisphere to move to a state that I have no clue about, with no idea for a job, and live completely on my own.
> Hey, its cheaper, right?

While I'll agree that it's easier said than done, what Z is talking about is not nearly so diffucult as you make it seem. I know, I uprooted my life in order to move halfway across the country (to Washington, in fact) just last summer. No, you can't just wake up one morning and say "I think I'll move to [Bleah]" and be there by sunup the next morning and expect everything to work out perfectly on anything more than a fluke. But you can wake up one morning, make the decision, and have you and your family there in a few months, or even a few weeks. Hell, this is the age where you can hunt for work over the internet, get most or all of your interviews over the phone and actually expect it to work. Well, as well as any other method of job hunting.
My point is that it is no herculean task to move somewhere just because you want to. It only requires planning and will.
-Desdan
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
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Digestor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Digestor » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:48 pm

> Desdan_Mervolam wrote:
> While I'll agree that it's easier said than done, what Z is talking about is not nearly so diffucult as you make it seem. I know, I uprooted my life in order to move halfway across the country (to Washington, in fact) just last summer. No, you can't just wake up one morning and say "I think I'll move to [Bleah]" and be there by sunup the next morning and expect everything to work out perfectly on anything more than a fluke. But you can wake up one morning, make the decision, and have you and your family there in a few months, or even a few weeks. Hell, this is the age where you can hunt for work over the internet, get most or all of your interviews over the phone and actually expect it to work. Well, as well as any other method of job hunting.
> My point is that it is no herculean task to move somewhere just because you want to. It only requires planning and will.
> -Desdan

maybe for you, but my family = my parents, my brother (and his wife and son), and my uncle (and his family).
I don't have a wife/family of my own in the same sense and there's no way in hell I'll convince all of them to move with me.
So yeah, I get a job here working for AT&T and they say "move to Nebraska and you'll get a promotion, +10k a year, and this is all guaranteed 100%" and then there's the choice.
Ohhh more money, better job, cheaper cost of life
.....and no family or friends.
guess which I'd go with.
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tzor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by tzor » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:23 pm

> Digestor at [unixtime wrote:1176763735[/unixtime]]maybe for you, but my family = my parents, my brother (and his wife and son), and my uncle (and his family).

When I lost my consulting job I managed to find another job in a city in the same state but several hours away from my parents and uncle (I was - and still am single and have no brothers or sisters) it was still far enough that I could drive back on occasion. I had no friends there. I found them. Then when the boss took the company and the employees all the way south to Key West Florida, I only had those few friends who moved down with me who worked at the company. Know what? I found new friends. And I'm far from the outgoing social type.
There is only one thing to realize. The grass is not greener on the other side of the fence, it's just different. Every place has their share of suck. Every place has their share of joys. The goal is to find the place where you don't mind the suck and you love the joys.
And when I left paradise to return to the place I started from ... I found new friends!
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:22 am

It's actually very difficult to find a job in another city without having an address there or a degree of some sort. It's just easier to interview, find, and hire low-paying jobs from the local workforce. Basically, employers expect you to do all the work of being around locally. To convince them otherwise requires being otherwise more valuable than something they can acquire more cheaply.
Why I have to point this out is beyond me.
What good is the suggestion 'you could live somewhere cheaper,' anyhow? Expecially when it has been demonstrated that there's a fundamental lack of understanding why some places are more expensive to live than others.
-Crissa
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Digestor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Digestor » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:10 am

> tzor at [unixtime wrote:1176765825[/unixtime]]

> > Digestor at [unixtime wrote:1176763735[/unixtime]]maybe for you, but my family = my parents, my brother (and his wife and son), and my uncle (and his family).

> When I lost my consulting job I managed to find another job in a city in the same state but several hours away from my parents and uncle (I was - and still am single and have no brothers or sisters) it was still far enough that I could drive back on occasion. I had no friends there. I found them. Then when the boss took the company and the employees all the way south to Key West Florida, I only had those few friends who moved down with me who worked at the company. Know what? I found new friends. And I'm far from the outgoing social type.
> There is only one thing to realize. The grass is not greener on the other side of the fence, it's just different. Every place has their share of suck. Every place has their share of joys. The goal is to find the place where you don't mind the suck and you love the joys.
> And when I left paradise to return to the place I started from ... I found new friends!

score - that worked for you, won't work for me.
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erik
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by erik » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:06 am

In the moving for work vein, a while ago my brother got it in his head that he would like living and working in California. He was an Indiana native who resided in Pittsburgh post-college, then Boston until just recently... so he finally got some interviews out there and just recently moved to San Francisco for his new job.
I on the other hand am quite happy with Indianapolis and it would take a lot to get me out of here. Our cost of living is pretty reasonable and housing can be had inexpensively, but that also means that there isn't much appreciation on my house's value.
Back on the taxes topic, I would very much like to see a graduated income tax. It gets rid of the penalizing of people at arbitrary incomes, and it could finally take into account the uberwealthy who can easily afford to pay more.
I think it would go well with a proposal which I believe John Edwards has been making (heard about this on the radio) which is that since the government has all our information anyway, they could simply print out a statement and show us exactly how much our taxes come to with standard deductions, and we could either accept that or itemize or do the taxes ourselves if desired. I know tons of people would be elated to pretty much have their taxes already done for them, though it would be a monstrous kick in the nuts to the tax preparation industry (both software companies and seasonal offices).
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Desdan_Mervolam
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:47 am

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1176772921[/unixtime]]
> Why I have to point this out is beyond me.

You don't. The reason I piped up is because alot of people are acting like deciding to move to another place is the kind of task so difficult that once you complete it, you're about ready to go punch Satan in the face.
I am saying that, as someone who decided to uproot himself from the place he had lived for the better part of two decades, and move half a continent away from his family and friends, it is not so hard as you think.
Now, before someone accuses me of saying it, this doesn't mean it was easy. I had alot of emotions to dig through while convincing others this was not a move for the worse. I had alot of work sorting through my posessions, deciding what to discard/give away, what to take with me, and what to fetch later. I had a very long car drive in a vehicle packed to it's physical tolerances with Stuff. I spent alot of time broke between the saving money to move and spending time trying to find a job once I got here. I had the incredible luck of having excellent friends waiting for me willing to put me up and help me get back on my feet.
But, do you know what the hardest trial I had to face was? Actually deciding to get off my ass and fucking do what I had been telling myself for years I was going to do. Making the decision was the hardest thing. Once I did that I found that everything was MUCH easier than I thought.
-Desdan
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
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Hey_I_Can_Chan
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:57 am

> know tons of people would be elated to pretty much have their taxes already done for them, though it would be a monstrous kick in the nuts to the tax preparation industry (both software companies and seasonal offices).

It's my understanding that you can, pretty much, already do this--in the exact opposite way. That is, you can send the guv'm'nt a huge pile of cash and say, "Here, you figure it out." The guv'm'nt then, essentilly, does your taxes. The kicker? The guv'm'nt then is to mail you back anything that's left from your huge pile of cash.
Needless to say, I got the impression that there was rarely any sent back.
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tzor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by tzor » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:59 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1176772921[/unixtime]]What good is the suggestion 'you could live somewhere cheaper,' anyhow? Expecially when it has been demonstrated that there's a fundamental lack of understanding why some places are more expensive to live than others.

I haven't seen anyone demonstrating that. I haven't seen anyone mentioning it. Why are some places more expensive to live than others? Location, location, location!
You live in Califorina. While sometimes known as the land "of fruts and nuts" it is also known as "sunny Califorina." Heck, according to advertisements even your cows are "happy." Califorina is the state of downright nice weather ... but if you tire of that you can go up a few hundred feet in elevation and ski (so I am told) in your shorts! Add to that it is a coastal state with a number of critical shipping points, a significant extablished movie industry, and there is a lot of reasons why people, for reasons I simply can't understand strongly desire to be where you are! From Minnesota to the East Coast, everyone secretly desires to live in Califorina. The gold rush never stopped, people are just looking at mining the golden sun, even in places that never see it. (Smog filled LA for example.)
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Zherog
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Zherog » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:47 pm

> tzor at [unixtime wrote:1176814740[/unixtime]]
> You live in Califorina. While sometimes known as the land "of fruts and nuts"

Heh... Too easy...
You can't fix stupid.
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:05 am

California has the tightest environmental laws aside from Oregon - and they don't even have an oil industry.
Any state that has snow has summer skiing, by the way.
What brought people to California in 1849? Resources. Jobs. 1930? Resources. Jobs. 1960? ...Good weather, Jobs. 1980? Jobs. 1990? Jobs.
What brought people to Alaska? Jobs! No good weather there, and yet people moved there to find work.
People will move to jobs, no matter the weather. They'd move to the bottom of the ocean or to Mars if they thought jobs would be available.
And then the cost of living will rise. Yes, it costs more to live in Alaska or Oklahoma than California - until you count the number of people clammoring for finite resources like housing, fuel, etc. In Oklahoma they have to ship the fuel out to find buyers for it. In Alaska there's more than enough room - it's just very cold room.
Desdan - So you think it's so easy? Fine.
But you'll find more people moving to where it's expensive to live (because that's where the jobs are).
-Crissa
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Neeek
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Neeek » Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:29 am

I'd move to the bottom of the ocean or Mars if life was sustainable. A job would just be gravy at that point.
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Digestor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Digestor » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:17 am

> Neeek at [unixtime wrote:1176881344[/unixtime]]I'd move to the bottom of the ocean or Mars if life was sustainable. A job would just be gravy at that point.

I've always wanted to set up camp in between the twin mountains of Dolly Parton.
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Zherog
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Zherog » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:19 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1176876321[/unixtime]]Any state that has snow has summer skiing, by the way.

I can find no evidence of the ski resorts in the Pocono mountains (PA) having summer skiing. They use the resorts for other things during the summer, but it doesn't appear to include skiing.
Now, granted, I spent all of about 2 minutes looking.
You can't fix stupid.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives." ~ Jackie Robinson
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tzor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by tzor » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:48 pm

In both California and Alaska, the original reason for population growth was not “jobs” but “resources” specifically gold. Once you have the gold miners flashing cash others will follow if only because the gold miners themselves are a “resource.” Resources attract jobs. They include coastal resources, climate resources, water resources and even traditional mineral resources.
But it is not as much as resources have to be local than simply available locally. California did not develop significantly as a state until the railroads allowed the free exchange of goods between it and the Midwest/East Coast. Once connectivity is established the laws of job location tend to do some strange things. As more people enter an area with a resource the cost of living and the cost of business will increase. (I need to point out that labor itself is a resource.) California and Manhattan both share a high cost of living and a high cost of business. But if resources are easily transportable, they could equally be moved to less dense areas where the cost of living is lower, either with existing workforce or with new local workforces.
Research Triangle Park in North Carolina is a fine example of this. In effect corporations established a “resource;” quality jobs by simply building facilities there. (If you build it and you pay well compared to the area’s cost of living they will come!) “As of 2007, there are over 130 R&D facilities existing in RTP with more than 39,000 employees working for a total of 157 organizations.” This is the fallacy of the “jobs” argument. Jobs only exist because resources are freely available. Ironically that also includes affordable laborers, technicians and white color workers.
Outsourcing (and to an extent RTP is an example of local outsourcing) and the ability of the labor force to extend the distance between their homes and their places of work have made a significant impact on the demographics of states in the past century. Transportation, both the transportation of goods, and information has played a significant role in this transformation.
As for skiing, I hate to break your bubble, but not everyone has real West Coast Mountains. In North America, the eastern mountain ranges are all exceptionally large hills compared to the western ones. Snow generally melts off of the mountains here in the summer. Once in Vermont I was riding a ski gondola when the weather got so warm that the plastic gears that maintained the gondola started to melt. We had to wait a half an hour in the air while they replaced the gear. (Of course I used to think that Long Island was flat but then I traveled through Florida where “Space Mountain” is the highest point on the state.)
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Cielingcat
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Cielingcat » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:01 pm

The Appalaichan(sp) mountains used to be hueg liek X-box, but they're so ancient that they've eroded down to large hills.
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:31 am

There won't be any summer skiing in California this year, and wasn't any while I was a teen, either. Droughts do that.
..And tzor, that's a terrible argument. It really backs up what I said: People move to the jobs. If you build jobs, people will come, no matter where it is.
New York may be expensive to live - but it's also got alot of jobs. This attracts more people who want those jobs. Smaller companies may move to exploit a 'resource' of people - but people are mobile, and will actually follow the jobs if you make that extra effort and cost (like your example).
...So you proved my point, leaving me confused as to why you posted that as a contradiction at all.
-Crissa
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tzor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by tzor » Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:35 pm

But people don't move towards jobs. Jobs are one factor but not the only factor. People do need a job but they also have to live in a community and in the end people try to optimize a number of divergent factors in determining where to settle down for a while. I have known some people who looked for the community first and then afterwards the job. Generally these people had valuable skills.
Cost of Living has a significant value these days in determining where job opportunities will migrate to. And as these jobs are filled the Cost of Living therefore increases the job market becomes a fluid thing looking for the next great place to relocate.
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Digestor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Digestor » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:52 pm

^ Dude, my family and my uncle's family literally flew an entire hemisphere for jobs
hell just look at the illegal immigration issue - what's the cause of it? the jerbs, they done come to take 'em, tee hee
yeah, trust me, they DO go for jobs - of course 'jobs' aren't the only reason EVAAHHH but nothing is
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:38 am

Filled jobs don't make for higher cost of living - filled housing and resources do. Michigan is filled with jobs not looking for workers and their cost of living doesn't increase, as an example - because they have housing and a population base which was designed for more jobs than they have currently. New York and San Jose have low unemployment and currently lots of jobs available, but their housing is quite full, leading to higher cost of living. In New York there's literally no more space for housing so they build houses atop another (you might call those 'apartments'). San Jose fills in the bay and builds tightly packed condos - not matching New York's density, but it is third largest city in California (larger than San Francisco)
People move primarily because of jobs. Next come political and quality of life reasons, and probably after that war and disaster as reasons to migrate. Ask any number of people entering the US, or changing states in the US and jobs will probably be the number one reason.
We'd all love to be able to move somewhere and just 'live better'. Maybe someday.
-Crissa
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tzor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by tzor » Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:26 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1177033138[/unixtime]] New York and San Jose have low unemployment and currently lots of jobs available, but their housing is quite full, leading to higher cost of living. In New York there's literally no more space for housing so they build houses atop another (you might call those 'apartments').

You make a good point, but you're not exactly correct about New York. Yes taxes and other factors do produce vertical appartments and condos on the premium space but the real solution in New York city is the extended commute. I live slightly over 60 miles from Manhatten. There was a major effort to convert farmland into "McMansion" complexes, half million dollar homes with a bathrom for every bedroom. The people either drive into the city or they drive about 20 miles to where the electric line stops and take the train from there.
The ironic thing about these homes that even though they are expensive as hell the average cost increase to educate the future children of these houses is greater than the school property tax revenue of these houses so everyone's property tax rises as a result of building these houses.
New York is also still very much a swiss cheese land, large patches of ugly still are found throughout the region. Every so often a large patch of ugly gets converted into premium space and once in a rare while it actually works!
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:53 am

The majority of the population, and even the workforce don't live in McMansions, no matter that those buildings out number the apartment buildings...
-Crissa
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