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## A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Username17
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### A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Username17 » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:30 pm

OK, the designers of the game are having a campaign of sorts, depicted Here
and Here.
The deal is this: the campaign is "Against the Giants" which has been updated to 3.5 by someone who is almost as clever as he thinks he is. So there's no way to know what you're going to face except that it'll be almost exclusively juiced-up giants.
As you'll notice, the vast majority of your fellow players are precious close to useless - which is where the min/max challenge comes in. The idea here is to make a character that can actually survive in this environment and take out enemy giants. But in order to do that, you have to fall within the restrictive guidelines of the campaign, some of which are specified explicitly, and some which are not:

- All material must be 3.5. They say this right out.
- Characters are ECL 11. Yes, not CR 11, but ECL 11.
- No Material from Settings like Eberron or Forgotten Realms. It is a Greyhawk adventure, after all.
- All builds must be Simple. There's an actual DM who has shit to do, but more importantly the entire game only lasts an hour - so no build that takes longer than a few seconds to describe will fly. Sorry, no character with 4 Prestige Classes will even be considered.
- Characters must do simple things. Again, time limit. Polymorph and magic jar take too long to resolve.
- Characters must be "Awesome". They don't have to be effective, but they do have to be "awesome". We all know that you could walk into this situation with a Wizard who has three castings of planar binding and then molest the palace with his minions - but you have to play something bullshit or they won't even let you sit down.
- It's a one-off campaign siege, but you can't use that. So no, your character can't walk in with a scroll of gate to immediately tag out with a Pit Fiend to molest all your enemies. You can't use up a pile of Candles of Invocation either. You have to pretend that it's a campaign rather than 3 ginormous battles.

With those restrictions, your task is to make a character who can stand out amongst his fellow men and whup holy hell on the giants, living to survive another day.
Now, here's the hard part: Your compatriots blow.
Seriously, you've got supposed meatshields who are guys like a Dwarven Warmind or a Kobold Fighter/Kensai. If you distract enemy giants for as much as three rounds your compatriots may not kill anyone. There is a Sorcerer in the party who knows fireball and lightning bolt. Battlefield control is not enough. You have to be offense and defense at the same time because there is absolutley no chance that the party Druid is going to do anything good like filling up a room with wall of thorns and then filling up the room with insect plague. It simply isn't going to happen. If you drop enemy giants on their ass with grease your fellow fighters are going to dish out upwards of twenty points of damage before the giants stand up again, and then those giants are going to kill your friends.
Here are some examples of things that would work:
Wererat Archer
Everybody loves wererats. You have a level of "animal" (which is bullshit) and 3 levels of LA (which is also bullshit), so you only have 7 actual class levels to play with. But that's OK, because you have DR of 10/Silver to begin with and a phat pile of Dexterity (+6 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wisdom and Weapon Finesse for free). Now, what we're going to want is to maximize survivability, which comes from two sources: Elusive Target, and DR. DR can be jacked up by 2 per feat by throwing down Roll With It, and Elusive Target costs 3 feats which are all Fighter Feats. So we walk in there as a Ranger 2/ Fighter 4/ Dread Comando 1. Feats are: Toughness, Roll With it x3, Dodge, Mobility, Elusive Target, Iron Will (b), Weapon Finesse (b), Track (b), Rapid Shot (b).
So what does he do? He ignores Power Attack and the first 16 points of damage from each attack against him. Then he stands in the front, confident in the knowledge that his enemies can't do him more than a couple of points of damage under any circumstances. He tells his AC to go fvck itself and just plugs away with a big bow. Standing in front as an archer is counter intuitive, but as a character who is going to take an average of 5 points of damage per stone giant attack, you really can get by with some minor combat healing. Remember to wear a Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification as it prevents enemies from performing crits that would potentially exceed DR by a substantial amount.
Phase Rogue
You start off as a halfling Rogue and use Incarnum bullshit. You're a Totemist 2/ Rogue 4/ Monk 1/Assassin 4 and you have 4 dice of Sneak Attack and 3 Soulmelds. Needless to say, we take as our Soulmelds the Threefold Mask of the Chimera, the Blink Shirt, and the Disenchanter Mask (no Chakra Bind on this one because it is dumb). At 6th level we bust out Open Least chakra in order to pop an extra Move Action out of our Threefold Mask. And of course, we bind the Blinkshirt to our Totem Chakra to be able to dimension door with a Move Action. We bust loose with Sun School, and then we teleport three times per round and make an attack after each one. But of course, our third movement each round is going to be to teleport out of close combat down the hallway.
So how do we manage to do any harm to people? Well, we have a Ring of Blink that makes all our attacks sneak attacks, and then we actually fight with castings of blade of pain and fear so that our attacks are touch attacks. We don't even use a weapon, we just use Pearls of Power. Remember that we can cast blade of pain and fear and still attack by teleporting in with a move action. If the target fails its save vs. the fear, we then make the bonus jump to another point next to it and continue to beat on the now hapless foe - otherwise we take the bonus to teleport away.
---
See how this works? We don't use Midnight Metamagic to make a Persistent blade of pain and fear and then take all the Essentia and put it back into our soulmelds, because that's complicated. Instead, we leave all our Essentia in a pile and use Pearls of Power to recycle our spells because that's simple enough to explain to Mike Mearls during a lunch break.
We don't do something completely unfair like throw down a Beguiler on solid fog auto-juggle, we do something that is nearly unfair like reducing all incoming damage to the point where we can keep up with using a wand of cure light wounds between battles.
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User3
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by User3 » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:49 pm

Fear Stacking, Fear Stacking, Fear Stacking, plus even more Fear Stacking ...
Here's a simple 11th level build that is tailor made for being strong at its core iconic role (Tank) while having an ultra-nifty side schtick of scaring the living shit out of anyone with low Will Saves (ahem - Giants).
Barbarian 6
Marshal 1
Champ of Gwynharyf 4
Human - Knight of Stars (BoED)
01 - Dreadful Wrath(PGtF)
03 - Intimidating Rage (CompWarr)
06 - Righteous Wrath (BoED)
09 - Frightful Presence (Draco)
Plus, the CoG's 4th level class ability, Fearsome Fury!
***
Everything bolded above has a Fear Stacking mechanism (shaken > cowering ... etc.). And the character can strike fear in a lot of different ways with a minimal investment in precious actions.
The Marshal level is there to add your Charisma mod. to your Charisma Checks. Which of course, you have in spades due to all your fear-stacking feats and class benefits.
The whole idea here - is to get the Giants cowered or frightened, then deal with them from a distance.
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User3
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by User3 » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:51 pm

Ah, darn. I just saw Frank's mention of no Eberr/FRCS material. I have one feat in that build that is (Dreadful Wrath).
Still, substitute it with something else good (perhaps Nymph's Kiss to get the +2 to CHA checks plus other goodies).
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:13 pm

Hmm; this looks like a great time to pull out that Wizard 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Magus 1 (is it called that?) build that You suggested a week or two ago Frank.
Cast spells per day as a 12th level Wizard, Bard and Sublime Chord. Cast Wizard spells as if you're level 13 or more.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Cielingcat » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:27 am

So the whole "simple" thing outlaws Druids, right? Or would a Druid with a few preselected forms be fine?
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Neeek
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Neeek » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:06 am

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1173126618[/unixtime]]
> Here are some examples of things that would work:
> Wererat Archer
> So we walk in there as a Ranger 2/ Fighter 4/ Dread Commando 1.
> Remember to wear a Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification as it prevents enemies from performing crits that would potentially exceed DR by a substantial amount.

Not quite sure you want that last level as a Dread Commando. If you took Warshaper instead, you wouldn't have to worry about getting the chain shirt, you'd just be immune to crits, with better prospects for future levels.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by NineInchNall » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:48 am

I echo my initial suggestion to the guy who came onto the CO boards: Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 6. It's simple and straightforward, and the shapeshifting lasts all day, which basically means that your character spends the hour of game time in wild shape, nicely keeping things simple. (Assuming no AMFs, that is, but then, AMFs aren't simple for anyone.)
10:1 round advantage in addition to being able to assume the form of templated critters? Yeah, I'll take it.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by josephbt » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:14 am

The Recon Bike
Halfling Drd2(1/2ling subst lvl)/Ftr2/Rng2/Halfling Outrider 5
Your feats are: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Natural Bond and Weapon Focus(Bow). Your halfling outrider stacks with both druid and ranger levels for purposes of animal companion, so you ride a(wait for it) - leopard. It's a Battlecat. It can zoom round the battlefield, can hit stuff and can climb.
You ping stuff with your bow, then move out to charge distance. Critter charges and what do you do? Duck behind your cat. No more charging you, but the cat. And since your Ride is literally ginormous, you avoid the attack. Even if they hit, the beast has a gazillion hps and you can heal it. If push comes to shove, climb something and ping from distance.
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erik
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by erik » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:44 am

I'm of a similar mind to Joseph, except the mounted halfling could be using a lance to deal hundreds of damage each round, so long as the rest of the party doesn't get in your way.
Any decent halfling spirited charger should be consistently dealing 250+ damage per round at that level. I expect most giants will fall down to that.
My preferred notion is to use Druid as the main chassis and for the purposes of this challenge, I'd load up on a couple fighter levels, a barbarian level and hospitaler level for some easy feats and bonus damage. Lion's Charge (or is it Pounce? I refer to the spell) + Spirited Charge + Shock Trooper is sure to please.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by josephbt » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:08 am

You could also get 2 levels of Wild Plains Outrider. Your mount gains +10 speed and you gain full mounted attack.
And you could take TWF instead of Rapid shot as bonus Rng feat, substitute ranged feats(xcept Mounted Archery) for mounted feats, take Oversized twf, and hoody ho, charge and twf full attack with 2 lances.
Yeehaw.
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Username17
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Username17 » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:21 am

> I echo my initial suggestion to the guy who came onto the CO boards: Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 6.

That's an Eberron class and not available in a Greyhawk adventure.

> If you took Warshaper instead, you wouldn't have to worry about getting the chain shirt, you'd just be immune to crits, with better prospects for future levels.

Actually... not really. Warshaper provides some impressive melee bonuses, but if you already fight with a big Dexterity and Weapon Finesse, then a +4 unnamed bonus to Strength is pretty underwhelming. You seriously would rather have a die of Sudden Strike.

> Hmm; this looks like a great time to pull out that Wizard 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Magus 1 (is it called that?) build that You suggested a week or two ago Frank.

The Ultimate Magus build is 12th level minimum and this setup is 11th level.
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Cielingcat
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Cielingcat » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:29 pm

Jesus Christ it's a Druid GET IN THE CAR!
Druid 11. Simple and effective. Have a Wild Dragonhide Fullplate +1 and Wild Darkwood Tower Shield +1. When you Wildshape (into a Dire Lion) you keep the AC bonuses from those, giving you +14 AC. Now, you're not wearing armor, so you can damn well wear a Monk's Belt and get 1+Wis to AC, which should be at least +7 by now, for +21 total. Extended Barkskin nets +4, for +25, and I don't care anymore because you're now sporting and AC of 40. For 50,000 you're unhittable to anything but a Cloud or Storm Giant, and even the Storm Giant needs a 14 on his first attack to get you. You can also cast Stoneskin.
Offensively, you're a Dire Lion with 25 Str, 3 attacks, and Pounce with 2 Rakes. Only you're also a Druid, which means you can cast something crazy like Bite of the Werebear for +16 Str. But that doesn't last long so I'll ignore it. Instead, you have Greater Magic Fang and run around sporting a +3 enhancement bonus to your natural weapons. You attack at +18/+18/+13, or +20/+20/+15/+15/+15 on a charge, dealing 1d6+10(+12 charge) for your claws, 1d8+6(+8 charge) bite, and 1d6+8 rake. The best AC among the giants belongs to the Storm Giant at 27, which means your offense isn't good enough. Still, you can literally stand there and duke it out with a giant until they die, and if you really need to Bite of the Werebear makes you rock. Even if you get surrounded by giants, you're a Druid and you have Airwalk, so you can really just leave if you want. If you have Spirited Charge you can throw out 100 damage on a charge easy, and since the only feat you've taken is Natural Spell there's no problem. You can also get Power Attack or something.
Not to mentioned you're also an 11th level spellcaster, and there's enough crazy Druid spells buried in books I don't care to delve into to occupy you. Oh, and you have an animal companion who you can Animal Growth.
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Fwib
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Fwib » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:55 pm

> Wererat Archer: Feats: Toughness, Roll With It x3...

To increase DR /silver, you want Thick-skinned, from the next page in Savage Species - so you don't need Toughness, or to have 20 constitution (although hp are nice, in any case) so you have DR 16/Silver and a spare feat.
On the other hand... you wouldn't want to put it past the GM to equip the enemy with a silver weapon, so maybe not...
Of course, I'd not put it past them to rule that Savage Species isn't 3.5 enough for them.
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Zherog
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Zherog » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:09 pm

> Fwib at [unixtime wrote:1173196554[/unixtime]]

> > Wererat Archer: Feats: Toughness, Roll With It x3...

> To increase DR /silver, you want Thick-skinned, from the next page in Savage Species ...

Isn't Savage Species a 3.0 book, which means it's out by the rules?
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by NineInchNall » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:34 pm

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1173176480[/unixtime]]

> > I echo my initial suggestion to the guy who came onto the CO boards: Druid 5/Planar Shepherd 6.

> That's an Eberron class and not available in a Greyhawk adventure.

In the thread on the CO board, he said that all 3.5 material was available, even stuff from random settings like FR and Eberron, hence my confusion. *shrug*
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by User3 » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:52 pm

> Zherog at [unixtime wrote:1173200959[/unixtime]]

> > Fwib at [unixtime wrote:1173196554[/unixtime]]

> > > Wererat Archer: Feats: Toughness, Roll With It x3...

> > To increase DR /silver, you want Thick-skinned, from the next page in Savage Species ...

> Isn't Savage Species a 3.0 book, which means it's out by the rules?

Savage Species is specifically allowed if you check out the CO thread and the articles on the WotC site describing the game.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by RandomCasualty » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:34 pm

Actually a group of giants could fairly easily dispatch a charge build if the DM is at all rules savvy. You have the giants stand in a line. The giants in the back toss stones while the front giant readies an action to move out of the way if the charge build charges him and gets within 15 ft (or just outside the lances reach). The giant moves out of the way to a degree that he can no longer be charged (since it wouldn't be a straight line). This causes the charge to abort and leaves the charge guy vulnerable.
Other giants then act and proceed to surround and kick the crap out of him.
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erik
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by erik » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:33 pm

Yes, there are a bunch of counters to charging. However, you likely will have killed 1 or 2 giants before they even know what's coming and that can't leave many giants left.
If you want to sacrifice a wee bit of BAB for surprise, you can take a dash of arcane casting to kick off a battle with invisibility and then the first notice they get of your deadliness is when they fall down with a hole through their chest.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:42 am

Here're my thoughts for a quick and unique (if not terribly impressive) build
Since you know you're fighting giants, exploit that
Gnome Rouge 5/ Ranger 6
archery style, Favored Enemy: Giants. Feats include: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Stealthy,
Key Equipment: Giant-Bane Arrows (if you can afford it get some that are also holy, also axiomatic and so on) Wand of Flame Arrow, activated via UMD, heck a wand of True Strike too) All the stuff that adds to hide. A couple Salves of Slipperiness
Leadership and a 9th level transmuter cohort, who cast Permanent Reduce Person on you at some point in the past. He knows craft wand (since scrolls will seem to abuse the one-shot spirit of this) Extend Spell and as many Energy Substitions as possible. He also knows Flame arrow and some other buff spells (keen edge, GMW, heroism, etc, and improved invisibility)
You take the minimum starting size, so you were 34" tall and 37 lbs, now you're 17" tall and weigh 4 lbs 4 oz. You can ride around in one of the other party members backpack, or have your hawk animal companion carry you out of reach of the giants.
Your main schtick is using the sniping rules, as you have a Hide of something like +33 (without using invisibility) so you have a roughly even chance to disappear again after sniping. Your arrows do basically 1d3-1+3magic+1pb +2d6 bane +1d6 fire+4 favored enemy against giants, with the chance to get up to 3 more dice of sneak attack, 4 more dice of elemental types, and possibly 2 more dice of alignment damage in. Sneak attack explictly does not work with manyshot, and PB shot and ranger favored enemy are currently ambigious (but I suspect errata I missed counts those as precision damage)
So you only end up with something like 76pts of damage each round and only 50% chance that they can even tell where it came from. Like I said, not terribly impressive.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by shau » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:56 am

The True Priest of Wee Jas
Roll up a cleric with the ghost template(plus 5 la). Max out his charisma. Then make him old for more cha. Heck, make him venerable for all it matters. Put all your money in charisma boosters. Say that they were your cherished items or that you died wearing them. Use Eagle's Splendor if the DM does not buy that. Take malevolence, frightful moan, and maybe telekinesis as your powers. Take ability focus: malevolence and ability focus: frightful moan as your feats
In play, you are going to be the team scout, since nobody can see you and you can do cool stuff like walk through walls. In battle, you possess giants (malevolence) and then have them fight to the death. Sometimes you materialize and scream (frightful moan) to scatter your foes in every direction. Maybe throw stuff with telekinesis. Only enemies with magical weapons can hurt you, and I don't think any of the giants out of the monster manual have magic gear. Stick to possession when that happens. You will be invulnerable, but it won't seem that way because you are losing hit points, etc., but those hit points are just your host body's.
Cleric was my choice of class for roleplaying reasons and because they had eagle's splendor and two good saves. You could take commoner levels and be just fine. Being a cleric lets you patch up your party members and probably explode yourself if you ever try to turn undead.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Catharz » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:19 am

If Savage Species is allowed, just play the classic Gaelie Eladrin. I played one of these guys for a one-shot, and they're amazing even if you ignore that they're full-to-almost full clerics.
At the very worst, you go incorporeal and start sniping with your rays.
Then again, going incorporeal totally ruined the dungeon crawl aspect of the adventure I was in, and may be considered 'too complicated.'
Anyway, I like the rat build. A friend of mine played a similar 'were-crane' monk once, and that worked out quite well until the DR stopped stopping damage.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by User3 » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:30 am

Most of the giants in this adventure have magic weapons; incorporeal shadows that some guy summoned were getting hosed pretty hard.
Since the next adventure is at ECL 13, it's the perfect time for a Focused Master Conjurer, since you get your level 10 ability to Quicken your Conjuration spells for free. You can compensate for irrelevant melee characters by just summoning monsters to take advantage of your battlefield control.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Catharz » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:32 am

Wow, I'm glancing through the Min/Max board thread. The Kobold fighter is being replaced with an anthro bat druid
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by Zherog » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:11 pm

> Josh_Kablack at [unixtime wrote:1173242570[/unixtime]]Rouge 5

I'm disappointed, Joshie. I expect this from people on WotC, but from you?

> Sneak attack explictly does not work with manyshot,

Why doesn't sneak attack work with Manyshot? It only applies to one arrow, but I don't know why it wouldn't work.

> ...and PB shot and ranger favored enemy are currently ambigious (but I suspect errata I missed counts those as precision damage)

Not that I'm aware of. In fact, if favored enemy were still precision damage (like back in 3.0), it wouldn't work against things immune to crits - and I know WotC has explicitly said favored enemy damage applies to undead, constructs, etc in 3.5.
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### Re: A Bizzare Min/Max Challenge

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Post by erik » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:00 am

It got Cletus!
5 Wizard/6 Bonded Summoner[earth] (from Miniatures Handbook)
Nothing terribly fancy. Just a huge earth elemental that gets to share an Enlarge Person to become gargantuan, along with a few other buffs to make it a scary bruiser capable of going toe to toe with giants, and grappling them like little bitches if one on one.
I was going to have one of these for Living Greyhawk, but it took me a long while to find access for the Bonded Summoner, and one of my fellow local players beat me to it *and* he got access to Benign Transposition and Heroics (both not normally available), so I lost interest in being a lesser Bonded Summoner to his. Anywho, on with the show.
Relevant Feats:
Arcane Disciple (Competition)
Practiced Spellcaster
Relevant Spells:
Master's Touch (for proficiency with a huge greatsword)
Bull's Strength
Dragonskin
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Fearsome Grapple (+8 to grapple checks? well holy crap)
Fly
Greater Mage Armor
Haste
Heroics (for whatever fighter feats you feel like having it own today)
Improved Invisibility
And some more from Arcane Disciple(Competition): Divine Favor and Divine Power (if the adventure continued then later Righteous Might also).
With only Enlarge Person up and running, the huge Earth Elemental is packing a +34 grapple. Give it Improved Unarmed Combat and Improved Grapple before an imminent battle and you've got +38 to grapple. The only likely grapple resistance you'll find is in the huge giants (who on race alone are around CR 12 +/- 1) and they aren't likely to be running in packs at level 11, so you can buff up higher (50+ if need be) and take one out solo.
[edits: typoe(s), added details, spells]
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