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## 3E/4E Critical Hit Fail

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Murtak
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Post by Murtak » Thu May 14, 2009 11:14 pm

> Roy wrote:Ok, that works. Assuming you're carrying a damn box around, which means you have to be planning for this sort of thing. And just like suicide, you tend to be pretty good at talking yourself out of it if you stop to think about it. Such is the nature of stupidity. It can only self perpetuate via willful ignorance. Moment you start thinking it falls apart.

Are you seriously reduced to arguing that no sane adventurer would carry around implements to allow them to transport sharp bits of metal?
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Thu May 14, 2009 11:27 pm

Let me preface this with a single comment:
Roy is totally wrong about how WBL does work, and should work.

> Murtak wrote:Again: Swords can in fact be broken after the fight is over. There is not one single reason to continously state how stupid sundering weapons is (of course carefully skipping the useful examples). Except of course that your whole "argument" falls apart the very second you look at out of combat sundering. Yeah, Glitterdust is good, I get it. But fighters can't cast it, and sundering, say, a giant's sword is one of the few ways they will actually get to contribute to a fight. But that isn't the point. The point is, there is no need to sunder items in combat if you are doing it to get rid of evil items, which was the entire fucking point of this exercise.

Actually the entire point of this exercise is to argue about whether natural ones on saving throws or sundering in combat should destroy loot. Not the deliberate destruction outside of combat, since that seriously applies to like 5 items in the history of D&D, and even then you don't have much reason to.

> Murtak wrote:No, it means you get rid of a sword that only evil people can use. Can you tell me one reason why our example paladin wouldn't do it? Not you, not the player, the character. In the game world.

No, it means getting rid of a sword that only evil and neutral people could use, and that you could have sold to a druid enclave for oodles of sweet cash.

> Murtak wrote:Detect for three rounds and you get separate auras for each effect. Next time, read the spell before posting bullshit.

Once again, still talking about in combat. You aren't wasting 3 rounds in combat to find out if the sword is evil. And if you waste even the one round, you find out only that something is evil in that cone, IE maybe the person holding it.
You can never know if you could use the sword until after combat is over, and by then, there is no reason to do so.

> Murtak wrote:Who is talking about revival, apart from you. Again: What is to stop your players from suiciding on every decision they don't like? They roll up new characters and do the adventure again. How do you stop them? Bonus question: You originally stated that destroying evil items let's them "reroll the loot" if you later compensate them. How so? Who controls the loot? You do. Also, why do you feel the need to fuck them over by handing them a sword their characters can't use. Do you think railroading them into delivering the sword to the temple is good DMing?

His entire point is that he punishes them for destroying loot by not giving them more. People who claim sundering should result in more loot showing up are exactly the people who have to actually explain why they reward destroying items with more items, but don't reward losing HP with more HP.
He is wrong about a lot of things, but 'you must have this much money, and if you throw money away more shows up magically' is really fucking dumb.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Fri May 15, 2009 12:05 am

Since when does a +10 cold iron weapon cost an extra 200k? Or are you going out of your way to interpret it's 2k markup in THE worst manner possible (and still using bad math)? Even with a stupidly harsh ruling, you only pay more than 2k if you get that weapon enchanted in steps (+1 at 3rd level, flaming at 7th level, etc); and it never gets past 2k if you stick to the more sane reading of it being a one-time payment once you've enchanted it once.
As for silver, a -1 penalty to damage isn't something I'd ever worry about, because it's an amount of damage I wouldn't wipe myself with.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Fri May 15, 2009 12:36 am

> virgileso wrote:Since when does a +10 cold iron weapon cost an extra 200k? Or are you going out of your way to interpret it's 2k markup in THE worst manner possible (and still using bad math)? Even with a stupidly harsh ruling, you only pay more than 2k if you get that weapon enchanted in steps (+1 at 3rd level, flaming at 7th level, etc); and it never gets past 2k if you stick to the more sane reading of it being a one-time payment once you've enchanted it once.

I stand corrected. Cold Iron is almost worth being a weapon. I had always read that as it being double cost for all enchantments. A mere 2000gp for an item that overcomes slightly more DR then Adamantium is actually worthwile somewhat.

> virgileso wrote:As for silver, a -1 penalty to damage isn't something I'd ever worry about, because it's an amount of damage I wouldn't wipe myself with.

-1 damage on all your attacks is still a lot more then -10 on .00001 of all your attacks.
Seriously, why would you take a damage penalty on all attacks ever just so you can overcome one DR that never comes up, and even when it comes up isn't hard to overcome with a normal weapon?
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Fri May 15, 2009 1:32 am

Can we take the sunder discussion here?

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Fri May 15, 2009 1:53 am

> Psychic Robot wrote:Can we take the sunder discussion here?

Thank you.

> Avoraciopoctules wrote:On the subject of critical hits, I was experimenting with some custom monsters a while ago. I was trying to represent constructs with weak points that reduced their capacity to fight when struck rather than simply increasing damage dealt.

> > Crit-resistant (subtype)
> > For whatever reason, the creature takes less pure damage when struck in its weak points than most.
> > The creature is vulnerable to critical hits, but it takes half of the extra damage it would otherwise take from the critical hit. Thus, if struck with a weapon that deals x2 damage on a critical strike and deals 1d8+10 normally, the creature would take 1d8+10 + 1/2 (1d8+10) damage from a critical strike. This halving of damage also applies to sneak attacks.
> > Note that if this subtype is applied to something normally immune to critical hits, it overrides the immunity.

> > Weak Point
> > The rune on the forehead of an armos guardian is the source of its power. This power can be disrupted with the application of sufficient trauma.
> > Though the armos guardian only takes half the extra damage from critical hits and precision-based damage, it counts as slowed for 2 rounds if such an attack deals 15 or more damage.

Any opinions on this concept? I'm thinking of making a set of subtypes and qualities like this. I like the idea of a mechanical failure table for more advanced constructs that get hit with precision damage, though it might slow down play a bit.
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Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus » Fri May 15, 2009 2:21 am

> Psychic Robot wrote:Can we take the sunder discussion here?

Thank you.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Fri May 15, 2009 2:24 am

> Avoraciopoctules wrote:Any opinions on this concept? I'm thinking of making a set of subtypes and qualities like this. I like the idea of a mechanical failure table for more advanced constructs that get hit with precision damage, though it might slow down play a bit.

Honestly, I'd just give them crit immunity, and then change all things with crit immunity get an effect when crit or hit by X precision damage.
constructs would be slowed.
undead would have move speed reduced.
elementals, I don't know, think of something.
ect.
Rogues shouldn't be useless against whole swaths of enemies for no good reason, and crits are rare enough and unimportant enough that you can just give people the effects instead of the damage.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Fri May 15, 2009 3:05 am

That would result in less bookkeeping.
Any ideas as to durations for the status effects? I'm waffling between 2 rounds with a low damage threshold to initiate and until the end of the encounter with a higher damage threshold that lets multiple attacks stack to reach it.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Fri May 15, 2009 3:30 am

Really, constructs and undead are entirely the wrong things to have a crit-immune. Zombies need to have their heads taken off, vampires need to be stabbed in the heart, and to kill the golem you just have to scratch out a word on its forehead.
The things that should be immune to critical hits are things that are completely homogeneous: elementals, shadows, swarms, green slime...
Oozes would qualify so long as you make the (IMO dumb) assumption that they don't have nuclei and other internal structures.
That said, the 'critical special effects' idea is very cool, and could work well applied to all critable creatures.
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Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus » Fri May 15, 2009 3:46 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:Really, constructs and undead are entirely the wrong things to have a crit-immune. Zombies need to have their heads taken off, vampires need to be stabbed in the heart, and to kill the golem you just have to scratch out a word on its forehead.

Completely agree. They might have unusual weak spots, but at most all that should require is a knowledge check to figure out where to stab them. If you do require that, it could also lead to the flavor of assassins and such knowing their enemy, studying anatomy to kill better, etc.

> The things that should be immune to critical hits are things that are completely homogeneous: elementals, shadows, swarms, green slime...
> Oozes would qualify so long as you make the (IMO dumb) assumption that they don't have nuclei and other internal structures.

Aye, I always think of, say, the water temple boss in Ocarina of Time. Nuclei ftw.
IMO, immunity to crits (and quite a few other things) should be creature specific, not type specific. Incidentally, this too increases the importance of Knowledge in identifying a creature's weaknesses, immunities, etc.
Last edited by Caedrus on Fri May 15, 2009 12:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Murtak
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Post by Murtak » Fri May 15, 2009 11:05 am

> Caedrus wrote:

> > CatharzGodfoot wrote:Really, constructs and undead are entirely the wrong things to have a crit-immune. Zombies need to have their heads taken off, vampires need to be stabbed in the heart, and to kill the golem you just have to scratch out a word on its forehead.

> Completely agree. They might have unusual weak spots, but at most all that should require is a knowledge check to figure out where to stab them. If you do require that, it could also lead to the flavor of assassins and such knowing their enemy, studying anatomy to kill better, etc.

I like that idea. Of course D&D skill rules make this hard but how does this sound:
You can crit any creature with a CR equal to your skill ranks - 3 in (insert appropriate skill here) normally. For every skill rank you lack your threat range decreases by one.
So your stereotypical level 6 assassin with a Rapier and Knowledge: Undead 9 gets to crit CR 6 undead normally. CR 7 undead still get critted on a 19-20, CR 8 undead get critted on a 20 and CR 9+ undead are crit immune to this guy.
Apply to creatures/creature types as needed.
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Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus » Fri May 15, 2009 11:23 am

> Murtak wrote:

> > Caedrus wrote:

> > > CatharzGodfoot wrote:Really, constructs and undead are entirely the wrong things to have a crit-immune. Zombies need to have their heads taken off, vampires need to be stabbed in the heart, and to kill the golem you just have to scratch out a word on its forehead.

> > Completely agree. They might have unusual weak spots, but at most all that should require is a knowledge check to figure out where to stab them. If you do require that, it could also lead to the flavor of assassins and such knowing their enemy, studying anatomy to kill better, etc.

> I like that idea. Of course D&D skill rules make this hard but how does this sound:
> You can crit any creature with a CR equal to your skill ranks - 3 in (insert appropriate skill here) normally. For every skill rank you lack your threat range decreases by one.
> So your stereotypical level 6 assassin with a Rapier and Knowledge: Undead 9 gets to crit CR 6 undead normally. CR 7 undead still get critted on a 19-20, CR 8 undead get critted on a 20 and CR 9+ undead are crit immune to this guy.
> Apply to creatures/creature types as needed.

I take some issue with this in that the whole idea of CR-based knowledge DCs is kinda, well, odd. Realistically, obscurity and so forth would be expected to take a greater role than how tough a creature is.
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Murtak
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Post by Murtak » Fri May 15, 2009 11:26 am

I would expect higher CR creatures to be rarer, but you could just as well list the required ranks on the creatures, like so "Crit resistant: undead: 10", which would require 10 ranks of knowledge undead to not get a lowered crit range.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Fri May 15, 2009 11:36 am

I'm actually fine with giving just about everything some relatively easy to hit knowledge limits and just accept that this means that fucking everyone is going to have a smattering of knowledges by the time they reach any meaningful level at all.
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Roy
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Post by Roy » Fri May 15, 2009 11:38 am

> virgileso wrote:

> > SRD wrote:It prefers ferrous metals (steel or iron) over precious metals (such as gold or silver) but will devour the latter if given the opportunity.

> Looks like they eat adamantine just fine to me (the ability itself continues on to state that metal is destroyed, not ferrous-only.
> And this still grants great resistance to all creatures with material DR, because everybody is using nonmagical wooden clubs or adamantine weapons.

And this is different how?
No one is going to main a silver weapon, it means less damage vs everything else. Similarly, no one is going to main a cold iron weapon for the same reason except magnified - as it costs more to enchant at every turn, it will be less powerful at any given time and thus you lose damage anyways. Since the whole point of getting those weapons is to not lose damage...
If you aren't maining those weapons, you might as well not even have them because they will be behind enchantment wise and thus you lose damage anyways.
Material DR other than adamantine is either brute forced, or Shadowstriked by those that actually care.

> Crissa wrote:So you don't like Zorro, we get it, Roy, I don't understand why you have to go on about it at length.
> -Crissa

What the fuckity fuck does some rapier wielding fop have to do with Sundertards?
Ignoring people whining about how I deal with a bunch of ninjas spam posting. Also ignoring Murtak's flailing for piddly shit and whining about Sundertards.
And that about covers the latest wave of Fail.
Seriously, this is the fucking Den. You should all know better.
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Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus » Fri May 15, 2009 11:48 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:I'm actually fine with giving just about everything some relatively easy to hit knowledge limits and just accept that this means that fucking everyone is going to have a smattering of knowledges by the time they reach any meaningful level at all.
> -Username17

I am inclined to agree with this solution. Treating obscurity as a direct relation to CR is just silly. It is easy to imagine obscure weak creatures, as well as powerful creatures that everyone knows very well. You also avoid stupid problems like "I know how to kill that Vampire, but that OTHER Vampire that's killed exactly the same way, but is more powerful, is a complete mystery to me."
I could also easily see such information being communicated. Someone who knows shouts "run it through the heart with a stake" or "damage the glyph inscribed on its forehead!" and you can then just do that.

> Murtak wrote:I would expect higher CR creatures to be rarer, but you could just as well list the required ranks on the creatures, like so "Crit resistant: undead: 10", which would require 10 ranks of knowledge undead to not get a lowered crit range.

Ja. You could easily just make it a general mechanic with notation like "Unconventional Anatomy: Knowledge (X) DC Y"
Last edited by Caedrus on Fri May 15, 2009 11:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Fri May 15, 2009 11:59 am

I love how some people consider the damage penalty this debilitation that makes nobody ever consider maining it. It's a fvcking -1. Weapon Specialization gives twice that, and that's a bullshit feat because its bonus is too small to care about. And cold iron weapons only cost more than the additional 2000gp if you go out of your way to interpret the rule like some Gygaxian twit.
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Roy
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Post by Roy » Fri May 15, 2009 12:15 pm

> virgileso wrote:I love how some people consider the damage penalty this debilitation that makes nobody ever consider maining it. It's a fvcking -1. Weapon Specialization gives twice that, and that's a bullshit feat because its bonus is too small to care about. And cold iron weapons only cost more than the additional 2000gp if you go out of your way to interpret the rule like some Gygaxian twit.

95% of the time, it's doing nothing but hurting you. And that's if LE outsiders actually play a significant role in the campaign. Otherwise, more like 99%.
Even if it had no penalty, the fact it only does anything at all for you 1-5% of the time still means you'll solve the problem with Silversheen the rare times it comes up.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Fri May 15, 2009 12:47 pm

Silversheen requires advance warning, otherwise you're giving up an entire round to apply it (which is a huge damage loss).
And 99% of the time, you're not fighting stuff with adamantine DR either (and golems are taken out with silent image), what's your point? Once again, it's a penalty you don't even notice, so it shouldn't heavily influence your weapon choice the way you act like it does.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Fri May 15, 2009 1:28 pm

> virgileso wrote:Silversheen requires advance warning, otherwise you're giving up an entire round to apply it (which is a huge damage loss).
> And 99% of the time, you're not fighting stuff with adamantine DR either (and golems are taken out with silent image), what's your point? Once again, it's a penalty you don't even notice, so it shouldn't heavily influence your weapon choice the way you act like it does.

Adamantium- not helping 80% of the time.
Cold Iron- Always more expensive, not helping 75% of the time.
Silver- Always taking damage penalty, not helping 95% of the time.
WTF. What is your obsession with Silver? No one would ever use it. Why the fuck would anyone use it?
"The penalty isn't that bad. But there are no possible benefits, therefore people would use it." makes no fucking sense.
The penalty for stabbing yourself in the leg is very little, and yet people don't do it, because you have to have a goddam reason to do something.
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Amra
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Post by Amra » Fri May 15, 2009 1:49 pm

On the how-to-crit-the-uncrittable-critters front, you'd pretty much have to make Knowledge (whatever) a class skill for everyone, but I for one don't have a problem with that. It has always bugged me that corporeal undead are not susceptible to crits/sneaks... I mean, a bloody skeleton has its vulnerable points on show for all the world to see!
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Fri May 15, 2009 3:09 pm

I have no clue where you're getting those random % numbers for DR frequency, by the way. As for the reason? It beats a third of the material DR, and you're as likely to run into a monster with DR/silver as you are DR/cold iron (adamantine being the least common, as only golems and the uncommon stoneskin caster have such), so you might as well choose any one of the three.
As for possible benefits, the same as cold iron, it's cheaper than adamantine. Silver itself is only 180gp (vs 2k for iron, 3k for adamantine), which makes a difference at low levels.
It's not an obsession that you must use silver, it's disagreeing with your obsession that adamantine is the one-and-only weapon type.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
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Post by Username17 » Fri May 15, 2009 3:42 pm

The Monster Manual has 12 CR 10 monsters in it:
None: 6
DR /Admantine: 2
DR /Good: 1
DR /Good and Piercing: 1
DR/ Lawful: 1
DR/ Magic: 1
In addition, you are quite likely to encounter enemies at this level who are Lycanthropes (DR / Silver) or Vampires (DR / Silver and Magic).
at CR 13, there are 9 listed enemies, whose DR breaks down:
None: 3
DR /Adamantne: 1
DR /Evil and Cold Iron: 1
DR /Good: 2
DR /Lawful: 1
DR /Magic: 1
Plus, you now encounter Lycanthropes (DR / Silver), Vampires (DR / Magic Silver), and Liches (DR / Magic Bludgeoning).
Now, in later monster books they hand out a lot more Cold Iron allergies. But in the basic book it might as well not exist. As for Silver, Astral Silver (the crap they make Gith blades out of) don't have a damage penalty and are fairly affordable. So using core rules would suggest using an Astral Silver blessed warhammer as the "best weapon."
That to the best of my knowledge I have never seen or heard of a character actually using such a weapon under any circumstances indicates to me that the game has not hit Nash Equilibrium. Which leads me to believe that DR is a very minor influencing factor of behavior. And indeed, since most of the time you just do maximum damage by flying in with a lance made of wood and just ignoring the fucking DR, that seems to be a reasonable take home message.
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Roy
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Post by Roy » Fri May 15, 2009 4:35 pm

> virgileso wrote:Silversheen requires advance warning, otherwise you're giving up an entire round to apply it (which is a huge damage loss).
> And 99% of the time, you're not fighting stuff with adamantine DR either (and golems are taken out with silent image), what's your point? Once again, it's a penalty you don't even notice, so it shouldn't heavily influence your weapon choice the way you act like it does.

This brings us back to 'just brute force it'. Most of the time it's like 5 or 10, and you can ignore it anyways because the DR is something like Good OR Cold Iron or just DR/Good. Getting good aligned weapons isn't that hard, and doesn't necessarily even have an action cost you care about if you did want to try bypassing anyways.
To get DR/Good and Cold Iron you need level 17 demons and up, and even then you only get 10 points (Marilith) or 15 (Balor). So you can ignore DR on every demon but two without a cold iron weapon. I didn't bother looking through non core books, but I'd expect the others to follow a similar pattern where everything of level (14-16) or lower doesn't need it, and everything over that does. Regardless, at level 15 and up you should be doing at least triple that amount of damage with every single hit, so even if you have absolutely no means of bypassing DR such as the Shadowstriking property for example you can still just brute force it. And at 14 and below, you do the same thing with lower DR numbers.
Note that devils follow the same fucking pattern. Everything that isn't a level 16 Cornugon or level 20 Pit Fiend you can just get with a good aligned weapon. Those two have 10 and 15, respectively.
So there are literally 2 fucking monsters in the game where silver or cold iron would matter against. DR/Adamantine is a bit more common than that, but far more importantly it blocks Sundertards from ruining your character with trivial ease (as long as they go for the weapon or shield, if they aim at anything else it's still time to burn the character sheet).
Last edited by Roy on Fri May 15, 2009 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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