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## The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Kaelik
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Kaelik » Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:01 pm

"with so many on both sides committed to the utter destruction of their perceived enemy"
Amazing how you take time out of your day to do genocide apologia about how Palestinians just want to eradicate all Israelis.
I'm pretty sure people have talked about how fucked up that kind of "both sides are just trying to do a genocide, so no reason to try to change the status quo of exactly one side doing a genocide supported by the US" before on here, possibly even in response to you linking that same Onion video from 8 years ago.
"I once saw Elie Wiesel speak and he maintained that Israel could and should negotiate with anyone that wasn't committed to the destruction of the Israeli State - but only with those people. Acceptance of your existence is the fundamental requirement for any negotiations to proceed."
Jesus fuck christ. So much wrong with this genocide apologia.
For a starters, it means that every Palestinian should start murdering every Israeli tomorrow because there is no negotiating with Israel which categorically does not believe that Palestinians have a right to exist. They even have a whole ass hasbara argument that Palestinians are an "invented people" even when their actual politicians keep saying that they will never allow a Palestinian state under any circumstances.
Because unlike the blatant pro genocide lying you are doing, we actually know for a 100% fact that Israel, the nation, and the vast majority of the voters, don't believe that a Palestinian state has a right to exist. On the other hand, polling shows the majority of Palestinians would accept the 1967 borders. Hamas itself has outlined the explicit position that it would accept the 1967 borders, unlike Israel, which has clearly demonstrated it will not. So get to negotiating with HAMAS. But of course, the point of your lies wasn't to describe reality, it was to make apologia for the US supporting an ongoing genocide, because that's more important to you then spending even 15 seconds thinking about the actual people of the region as real actual people.
Secondly, quite aside from the factual matter of what people actually do or don't have a commitment to the "destruction" of other states.
What is the "Israeli State"?
If the White South Africans demanded the acceptance of a White South African State as a prerequisite to negotiate with Black South Africans, it wouldn't be hard to realize how bullshit that is. It turns out, ethnostates where some people are superior to other people are actually bad things that shouldn't exist. Notice that no one saying they want Palestinians have to accept the right of Israel to exist before they can stop being genocided thinks that Israel should have to repeal the laws already in place barring the marriage of Israelis and Palestinians in Israel, or the laws giving control over who can live where to small councils of the most right wing local Jews who use their power to do segregation in Israel, preventing Palestinians from moving into communities. Hell, they don't even believe Israel should have to first pull all their settlers back from all the settlements they have claimed in land that would, under the 1967 borders be in Palestine, and of course strategically placed by the Israeli state to split the West Bank, to seize the all the best water, ect.
No, accepting "Israel's right to exist" always and only means accepting the right to have a white ethnostate that subjugates the natives completely both in Israel and in the places that allegedly would be Palestine in this imaginary partion which the Israelis have been extremely clear they will never under any circumstances allow to exist.
It's like Andrew Jackson showing up in Georgia and saying he won't negotiate with them until after they sign a 14 point outline of how much they believe the United States has a Right To Exist. No it doesn't. You don't get to demand other people agree your ethnostate is cool as a precursor to negotiations. You also don't get to motte and bailey between your ethnostate which has soveriegnty over even stuff outside your ethnostate and a hypothetical state with equal rights. No Israeli or Palestinian is confused when someone asks them if Israel has a right to exist. They all know what Israel is, it's just a convient lie to pretend it means something else after they've answered the question so you can justify a continued genocide of them.
EDIT: Presumably Deaddm also agrees that Palestinians have a duty to assassinate Joe Biden, since the US also doesn't believe Palestine has a right to exist, so we can only have total war and not negotations right? Of course not. Because accepting the right of a state to exist has never been a precursor to negotations ever at any point between any parties.
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

> Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."

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Neo Phonelobster Prime
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Neo Phonelobster Prime » Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:15 pm

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:32 pm
> I don't think that's obvious. But since it is obvious to you, I'm sure you'll provide compelling documentary evidence that supports your position.

And then you have compelling documentary evidence that there are the same sorts of percentages of Palestinians that want to kill all Israelis as there are documented percentages of Israelis that want to kill all Palestinians?
Because you are flat out wrong about both sidesing that one in your desire to make this an intractable problem you can dump equal blame onto Palestinians for. Much as you are flat out wrong to promote equal bothsidesism historical takes pretending "oops they both attack each other that must be entirely equal proportion frequency and fault there as well".
You are using a liberal brain rot defense where all evil is equally distributed so that you can defend your inaction, or any random bullshit action you choose to, because everything in your perception is a swamp of equal blame forever so therefore nothing or anything goes.
You even still believe and repeat that "cannot negotiate with people dedicated to the destruction of Israel" bullshit even though it has long since been an obvious lie on several levels.
The Israelis themselves have explained how THAT lie works TO YOUR FACE in actual PUBLIC STATEMENTS TO THE MEDIA that are DOCUMENTED. What the fuck is your problem? Oh right, neo liberal, neo con, brain rot.
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Thaluikhain
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Thaluikhain » Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:37 pm

deaddmwalking...jeez. Don't have to both sides it, more than enough of that is being done elsewhere.
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deaddmwalking
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by deaddmwalking » Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:44 pm

So nobody has any evidence that Joe Biden just loves genocide so much that he'd blow up NYC to keep genociding? Nobody?
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Kaelik
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Kaelik » Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:49 pm

Wow, the genocide apologist really wants to talk about the documentary evidence for a joke instead of how they did genocide apologia? That's so suprising given his long history of good faith argumentation!
Anyway, the Biden admin has announced their official position on Israel intentionally bombing an aid convoy and then explicitly stating they intentionally bombed an aid convoy:
a) There is no evidence they intentionally bombed the aid convoy.
b) Also, literally 100% of Israel's acts have been good and awesome and they have committed zero human rights violations ever (well since October 7th.)
Thanks NSC spokesperson John Kirby. Really appreciate you putting such a fine point on how much the US supports this genocide.

> Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."

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Neo Phonelobster Prime
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Neo Phonelobster Prime » Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:03 pm

Every excuse they make for each grievous crime needing to be carefully investigated and not jump to conclusions etc... makes perfect sense.
IF, and only if you take each one in isolation and assume a genuinely blameless and perfect record of behavior before hand. (and also sort of ignore that some of them are so incredible damning just all on their own)
And if you combine being a credulous dupe to having the convenience of a gold fish memory to the point of having to actually put deliberate effort into being both those things you CAN come at it from that starting point each and every time.
But I don't think the Biden PR people realize that DeadDM is a very small constituency.
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Kaelik
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Kaelik » Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:12 pm

> Neo Phonelobster Prime wrote: ↑
> Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:03 pm
> Every excuse they make for each grievous crime needing to be carefully investigated and not jump to conclusions etc... makes perfect sense.
> IF, and only if you take each one in isolation and assume a genuinely blameless and perfect record of behavior before hand. (and also sort of ignore that some of them are so incredible damning just all on their own)
> And if you combine being a credulous dupe to having the convenience of a gold fish memory to the point of having to actually put deliberate effort into being both those things you CAN come at it from that starting point each and every time.
> But I don't think the Biden PR people realize that DeadDM is a very small constituency.

But that's the great part! John Kirby wants you to know that he's NOT taking this case in isolation. His actual next sentence was that the US has not found a SINGLE instance of ANY KIND in which Israel has violated international human rights laws AT ALL. They investigate every case in detail and with great care and every single instance has come up with "green light, Israel in the right, give more bombs"!

> Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."

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Kaelik
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Kaelik » Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:24 pm

John Kirby was asked if there any role for a neutral security force to protect aid workers after the IDF escort blew up the aid workers who were in constant contact with the IDF and specifically radioed in for help to let the IDF know they were being attacked by the first set of IDF bombs before the second and third set of IDF bombs were dropped.
He said "that protective force ought to be the IDF." So it's great to know that the official US position on aid workers is they should be fed into a meat grinder.

> Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."

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Neo Phonelobster Prime
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Neo Phonelobster Prime » Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:41 pm

Oh yeah, and one of the aid workers killed in the latest deliberate war crime by the IDF, was Australian.
The government here has now been pushed about as close to the edge of outright turning on Israel entirely as I suspect a five eyes ally is going to be permitted to.
We now apparently call for a immediate ceasefire consistent with the latest UNSC resolution. And demand that Israel "change course" but um, don't actually expect anything to happen and are not offering any enforcement of consequences or international law.
Still, on the "Can we just offer the public increasingly anti genocide rhetoric with no actual anti genocide action?" front Australia is now out there about as far as you can do that and far more so than the US or the UK.
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MGuy
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by MGuy » Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:11 pm

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:44 pm
> So nobody has any evidence that Joe Biden just loves genocide so much that he'd blow up NYC to keep genociding? Nobody?

I ain't going to lie, I was already sure what dead's stand on this genocide was going to be since nyt was cutting pro genocide lies in their paper. This attempt at a dodge after bothsudesing an apartheid state doing genocide though? Really something to see. Definitely going to be added to the list of dead's little mask slips.
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deaddmwalking
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by deaddmwalking » Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:22 am

You're always sure what my position is on everything, but you think you can read minds. You'll notice that I didn't state my position at all, but you think that pointing out elements where some people disagree is 100% always the same as having 100% the same positions (or worse!) without any type of critical thought. @Kaelik, thanks for admitting that claiming Biden would obviously bomb New York a joke. I admit that I don't get the punchline and I don't think anyone's laughing. I'm not even sure that laughing during a conversation about genocide is ever a good idea, but I will admit that if I knew that was what you were doing it would be incapable of making me think you're a more terrible person than I already do.
As far as what my position is, it is genocide is always wrong. That's not particularly controversial - basically 75% of the world signed the UN Genocide Convention, so agree at least in principle that genocide is always wrong. Beyond that, stopping violence when two or more people are willing to die to continue the violence is pretty difficult. Even if only one person is willing to die to continue the violence that's pretty difficult. If it would take military force and more deaths to stop it from happening, I think that the people in the United States really need to be consulted. As a country, the United States doesn't have a great history of involvement of wars in the middle east. I would expect that a regional consortium that includes Jordan and Saudi Arabia would have a better chance of stopping the violence than the United States. As far as the U.S. communicating to Israel that their actions are unacceptable, I would expect that most of that is handled through direct communication through diplomatic channels, and not in the headlines. I think that using mass media to enhance the message as happened 3 weeks ago. I would further expect that more is happening that we're not privy to, and the people involved are much better at what they do than Kaelik is at....anything. That doesn't mean I don't think you should call your congress person and/or demonstrate in Times Square - quite the opposite, but I also think that you should at least be honest about what your position is. If you think eradicating Israel as a historical mistake is the right answer, you should say it plainly. Personally, I don't think that's the right answer.
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Thaluikhain
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Thaluikhain » Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:42 am

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:22 am
> I would further expect that more is happening that we're not privy to, and the people involved are much better at what they do than Kaelik is at....anything.

I suspect Kaelik hasn't done anything along the lines of giving massive financial an military support to a nation currently engaged in genocide, so for a current point of view, you may be right.
The US has given additional support to Israel while it was committing war crimes, to allow it to further commit war crimes. You are going to really have to 12D chess that to make it look like this is supposed to stop Israel committing war crimes.
(More support than usual while Israel was committing more war crimes than usual, I mean.)
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Kaelik
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Kaelik » Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:45 am

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:22 am
> You'll notice that I didn't state my position at all, but you think that pointing out elements where some people disagree is 100% always the same as having 100% the same positions (or worse!) without any type of critical thought.

No one has to read your mind to see that you say the exact same fucking things as a bunch of other genocide propagandists for the exact same reasons.

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:22 am
> I'm not even sure that laughing during a conversation about genocide is ever a good idea, but I will admit that if I knew that was what you were doing it would be incapable of making me think you're a more terrible person than I already do.

Holier then thou genocide defender is not exactly novel, but it's sure as fuck rich coming from the pro genocide lie machine poster.

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:22 am
> Beyond that, stopping violence when two or more people are willing to die to continue the violence is pretty difficult. Even if only one person is willing to die to continue the violence that's pretty difficult. If it would take military force and more deaths to stop it from happening, I think that the people in the United States really need to be consulted. As a country, the United States doesn't have a great history of involvement of wars in the middle east. I would expect that a regional consortium that includes Jordan and Saudi Arabia would have a better chance of stopping the violence than the United States.

Which is why every post you make is about how the genocide must be supported and the US has an obligation to threaten to nuke Jordan if they dare try to stop the genocide, and you were defending the fucking US bombing Yemen because a fucking blockade was too much pressure on Israel. Or bullshit bothsidism lie with the exact same goal. Or bullshit lies like this post where you pretend to live in an alternate universe where the US isn't directly materially supporting the genocide every day.
That's the thing about constantly lying in support of genocide. At some point, someone has to notice that you keep defending every action to increase the genocide and every action to prevent it from stopping because Joe Biden did it. You are just making up a fantasy realm where you are advocating against "US involvement" but this entire thread is about the US taking affirmative steps to maximize the genocide and you keep stepping in to defend those steps.

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:22 am
> As far as the U.S. communicating to Israel that their actions are unacceptable, I would expect that most of that is handled through direct communication through diplomatic channels, and not in the headlines.

Most of the way that the Joe Biden adminsitration communicates that it supports the genocide 100% and will continue to make sure it is total happens by the US shipping Israel more fucking bombs. The bombs coming with a handwritten note saying "please don't use this exactly the same way you used the last 500,000" in pretty caligraphy doesn't fucking matter.

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:22 am
> I would further expect that more is happening that we're not privy to, and the people involved are much better at what they do than Kaelik is at....anything.

Nothing is happening that we aren't privy to because the adminstration keeps giving them bombs illegally in violation of US law and we keep hearing about it and the imaginary scoldings or patient pleas or whatever other meaningless words that have no effect are fucking worthless. The people being genocided by the US backed genocide are still being genocided no matter how pretty you think the west wing speech owning Netenyahu with his own logic behind closed doors is.
(Also now we ship them fighters to drop the bombs with too now. Because I guess they were running out of bomb delivery.)

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:22 am
> If you think eradicating Israel as a historical mistake is the right answer, you should say it plainly. Personally, I don't think that's the right answer.

Yeah, you, just like Joe Biden, feel the need to lie sometimes, but clearly from everything you say believe the only solution is the Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem and you are just treading water until it happens hoping it has no effect on US elections.
But back in reality, I think the end of Aparthied South Africa or French Vietnam, or French Algeria didn't result in the mass genocide of all the white people, and we can actually just all acknowledge that the genocidal threat has always and exclusively come from exactly one direction, and then we could STOP ARMING THE PEOPLE WHO'S GOAL IS GENOCIDE. And whether the Israelis flee in mass to Philadelphia similar to the French, or simply live privledged lives because they have all the best land in the fully democratic state that gives equal political rights to all as in South Africa, I'm okay with both of those things.
I know you aren't. I know the thought that anything but genocide is possible is upsetting to you because it would mean that democratic politicians were wrong when they supported genocide, and democratic politicians never being wrong is a million times more important to you then the lives of millions of Palestinians, but I'm also confident that you are one of at most two people on this entire forum that is true for, and that everyone else who reads your posts is disgusted by them.

> Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."

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Neo Phonelobster Prime
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Neo Phonelobster Prime » Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:25 am

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:22 am
> You're always sure what my position is on everything, but you think you can read minds.

Yeah, but you so shallow, its easier to read your mind than see the bottom of a crystal clear inch deep puddle.

> Beyond that, stopping violence when two or more people are willing to die to continue the violence is pretty difficult. Even if only one person is willing to die to continue the violence that's pretty difficult.

... No it isn't. Fucking moron.
This sort of stupid as fuck reality defying statement is exactly where you end up when you run yourself down the rabbit hole of your own brain rott. You tried to hard to justify the unjustifiable, and in order to do so you came to the conclusion that fuck it, stopping ONE VIOLENT PERSON is somehow JUST SHORT OF IMPOSSIBLE.
You know, rather than something that happens as part of simple domestic policing world wide on a daily basis. And would not even be considered a large scale challenge.

> I think that the people in the United States really need to be consulted.

You do know the current course of Action, that you very clearly support, by the United States is not popular in such countries as... the United States.
If you cared about what the people in the United States want you would be advocating AGAINST the current course of action and condemning Biden, like the people of the United States are doing.

> Jordan and Saudi Arabia would have a better chance of stopping the violence than the United States.

Hi. This is the real world calling. You coming home from your alternative dimension any time soon? Your food is getting cold.
And the historian we brought over to explain how many times the US HAS stopped the violence and how few times Arab countries have even been given a hearing wrote down more than you know about international affairs on a post it note and went home.

> I would further expect that more is happening that we're not privy to, and the people involved are much better at what they do than Kaelik is at....anything.

Have you SEEN John Kirby speak? And he is their "Most Pro" guy. You probably own a lot of famous bridges don't you?
I tell you what have you seen any coverage of what we DO know about what goes on "behind closed doors" or I don't know in Hebrew language press events and public press coverage of diplomatic meetings (since for someone with your media literacy those basically ARE "closed doors")? Have you EVER even ACKNOWLEDGED that coverage when people have brought it up to you, what with it being you know ROUTINELY DAMNING towards your position?
edit: You know, DOUBLE fuck you and your brain rotted boot licking version of appeal to authority by claiming the people in power have secret brain thoughts/top secret actions behind the scenes and are secretly actually super competent.
Because here is a recent example YOU SHOULD HAVE REMEMBERED when you tried to pull that line. What with it specifically being so insanely embarrassing to anyone attempt the hot take you are attempting.
You dumb fuck.
Oh wait. That was on aljazeera. You won't be able to read that. It's in Arabic-Journalists-Exist.
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MGuy
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by MGuy » Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:40 am

I don't read minds. I go off of what people say and people say a lot of things that inform me of where their mind is at. For one you're (practically) a NYT bot. So that means of course you're not going to do hand wringing over Russia destroying Ukraine because of the perceived threat of Ukraine Nazis and Western aggression because NYT didn't tell you to. But now you can say something stupid like this conflict is made complicated because some number of brown people would really like the apartheid state that's doing a genocide to disappear.
Does that mean dead supports genocide? Probably not because the official stance of NYT is that they are theoretically against it. They just conveniently would do propaganda in support of it. Does that mean that dead would do the same? Well they did just imply that Israel is somehow under threat of being dissolved despite that not being the reason they have been doing war crimes when the context of the discussion of Israel is how they are doing a genocide. One which dead is theoretically against. So at least the shoes seem to fit. Over the years there have been a number of times where the mask has slipped and pattern has formed. Especially the consistent downplaying or dismissal of criticisms regarding Democrats and the system in general.
Theoretically you wouldn't criticize someone saying "Hitler personally went and strangled every Jew he met" because the man orchestrated the Holocaust. So why would you give a flying fuck that anyone might joke about Biden when he is actively aiding and abetting an ongoing genocide? Is it because brown lives just don't count when Biden wants them to die? Don't know. The fact that you thought no one would call you on it tells me you're pretty comfortable not thinking about what the situation is.
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Omegonthesane
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Omegonthesane » Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:55 am

The only version of Israel that anyone is interested in maintaining is the one that can't sustain itself without the absolute extermination of the entire Palestinian people in the region.
By contrast, the absolute dissolution of Israel doesn't in a vacuum require the shedding of one drop of blood; whereas the establishment of one state called Israel from the river to the sea which had equal rights for Palestinians including full right of return for those displaced in 1948 and their descendants who have not been granted citizenship in another nation would, in effect, be the absolute dissolution of the only version of Israel that anyone is interested in maintaining even if it still gave safe harbour and instant citizenship to all Jews regardless of e.g. credible allegations of child sex abuse in their home country. Becasue the point of the Zionist project from its beginnings in the 19th century (as a Christian European project that a minority of Jews later got on board with and took over) was never to really make a safe haven for Jews; was in fact always and only for the twin purposes of creating a European outpost in the Arab peninsula and giving a place where European Jews could be deported to so as to facilitate ethnic cleansing.

> Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

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Neo Phonelobster Prime
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Neo Phonelobster Prime » Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:26 am

Now I'm someone who wants to kick people in the teeth when they pretend Israel vs Palestine is a "very complex issue". But, even I still think you just sorta... missed a bunch of stuff, but perhaps just because you raised more questions than you answered while saying a lot of not much at all.
Possibly though I'm just traumatized by this...

> Omegonthesane wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:55 am
> The only version of Israel that anyone is interested in maintaining is the one that can't sustain itself without the absolute extermination of the entire Palestinian people in the region.

... What?
"Anyone" who? Hell, "Anyone" what? You seem to be excluding a lot of people from that potential anyone while basically just talking about the United States of America's dominant neocon policy wonks like no one else even exists.
And does it really need to genocide or does it just WANT to exterminate a people (well after that more than just one if you listen to their public plans for their neighbors)?
And "maintaining"?
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Omegonthesane
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Omegonthesane » Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:33 am

> Neo Phonelobster Prime wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:26 am
> Now I'm someone who wants to kick people in the teeth when they pretend Israel vs Palestine is a "very complex issue". But, even I still think you just sorta... missed a bunch of stuff, but perhaps just because you raised more questions than you answered while saying a lot of not much at all.
> Possibly though I'm just traumatized by this...

> > Omegonthesane wrote: ↑
> > Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:55 am
> > The only version of Israel that anyone is interested in maintaining is the one that can't sustain itself without the absolute extermination of the entire Palestinian people in the region.

> ... What?
> "Anyone" who? Hell, "Anyone" what? You seem to be excluding a lot of people from that potential anyone while basically just talking about the United States of America's dominant neocon policy wonks like no one else even exists.
> And does it really need to genocide or does it just WANT to exterminate a people (well after that more than just one if you listen to their public plans for their neighbors)?
> And "maintaining"?

"Anyone who?" as in the various state level actors that haven't sanctioned the fuck out of Israel for all the shit it has already done, who have acted against overwhelmingly popular BDS efforts etc; "anyone who" as in domestic Israeli political trends, which all and always have gone for as much stolen land as possible with as few Palestinians as possible. This is a forum not a UN policy document, I didn't think I had to be super explicit that "anyone" means "anyone with the political power to actually force the issue". I could dig up examples of people tipping the hand by portraying BDS as gunning for the dissolution of Israel if you like - to be clear BDS doesn't and never did want to actually literally dissolve Israel, but they absolutely want the restoration of rights for Palestinians, which is antithetical to the model of Israel that Zionists actually want.
And yes, it does "need" to genocide, because it wants all the land between the river and the sea and it doesn't want any Palestinians in that land.
And "maintaining" in that Israel requires a lot of external support to function and would either collapse under its own contradictions or become totally unrecognisable if it lost its US sponsor and couldn't find a replacement very quickly.

> Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath, Justin Bieber, shitmuffin
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phlapjackage
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by phlapjackage » Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:19 am

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:32 pm
> but with so many on both sides committed to the utter destruction of their perceived enemy, that type of change in attitude is a hopeful sign.

What I'm really curious about now, is what your wife thinks about this situation.
Koumei: and if I wanted that, I'd take some mescaline and run into the park after watching a documentary about wasps.
PhoneLobster: DM : Mr Monkey doesn't like it. Eldritch : Mr Monkey can do what he is god damn told.
MGuy: The point is to normalize 'my' point of view. How the fuck do you think civil rights occurred? You think things got this way because people sat down and fucking waited for public opinion to change?
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deaddmwalking
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by deaddmwalking » Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:12 pm

> phlapjackage wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:19 am

> > deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> > Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:32 pm
> > but with so many on both sides committed to the utter destruction of their perceived enemy, that type of change in attitude is a hopeful sign.

> What I'm really curious about now, is what your wife thinks about this situation.

My wife thinks it's a waste of time to discuss politics on a gaming forum, especially with people who don't know the historical context of the conflict. At a minimum they should be aware of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire following World War I, the involvement of the League of Nations, and the subsequent history of conflict. Outside of a discussion, she agrees that it is a tragedy when a parent watches a child die due to indiscriminate violence.
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Kaelik
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Kaelik » Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:03 pm

It's extremely funny that the thing where you claim magic mind reading powers that allow you to know what history everyone else does or doesn't know (remember when deaddm was pretending to be holier then thou because other people couldn't read his mind instead of pretending to be holier then thou because he can read everyone else's mind?) and then your history lesson summarizes everything that happened for nearly a century as "the history of the conflict" and also talks about some stuff before "the conflict" but skips over the single most relevant event in relation to "the conflict" which is when a bunch of white British people took control over the area and started using it to deport white British Jews to.
It's almost like you don't have any particular knowledge of the history, and lots of people have the same wikipedia level understanding of history as you, or in fact, much more, and contrary to the thing you are pretending, that is only they knew "the role of the League of Nations" (in rubber stamping a British conquest that happened 5 years earlier) they would all agree that the US must help genocide the Palestinians like you.

> Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."

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Omegonthesane
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Omegonthesane » Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:18 pm

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:12 pm
> historical context of the conflict

> deaddmwalking wrote: ↑
> Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:12 pm
> the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire following World War I, the involvement of the League of Nations, and the subsequent history of conflict

You left out the rising tide of Arab nationalism which was part of how the Ottoman Empire was dissolved (the Ottomans alienated their Arab vassals by latching on to Turkish nationalism); you left out the secret pact between Britain and France in which they would carve out the former Ottoman Empire into their own mandates, betraying the Arab nationalist rebels whom they had promised new nations in return for their assistance against the Ottomans; you left out the early history of the Zionist ideology as a right wing attempt to change Jews from a diaspora to a nation by allying explicitly with antisemites; you left out the Balfour Declaration, signed by the antisemitic Arthur Balfour, in which the British Empire gave their blessing to the Zionist project as a way to "solve" their Jewish "problem"; you left out the early years of Zionists migrating to Mandatory Palestine in a model directly inspired by the British playbook in India and explicitly, specifically rejecting the idea of simply becoming citizens of Palestine alongside the Palestinian Arabs; you didn't even mention the Nakba; you certainly didn't mention the Haavara agreement between the Zionist project and literally the Nazis themselves; and you left out the part where the initial UN division granting the majority of the land to the Zionist minority was made without so much as consulting Palestinians, who might possibly have accepted some version of it if it was a negotiation instead of an imposition. (They might not, but we'll never know because it explicitly wasn't attempted.)
Your homework assignment is to read the free ebook on this page, and then to at least purchase and read Ten Myths about Israel by the Israeli historian Ilan Pappé (also available on that page for less than the price of a pizza). If you'd had your eye on the ball about the issue you'd have already got a free copy of it from back when Verso was giving it out gratis earlier this year and late last year.

> Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath, Justin Bieber, shitmuffin
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PseudoStupidity
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by PseudoStupidity » Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:24 pm

Is this dead projecting his own lack of knowledge on everyone else, or is it one of those things where he pretends something people understand pretty well is actually very complex and nuanced (when basically every step of the creation of Israel involved white people either not engaging with Palestinians in good faith or outright ignoring them). I don't think people need to know every fucking legal step that was forced onto a population that was actively resisting what was being imposed on them to decide that the fuckers who showed up and stole everyone's houses and killed a ton of people are the bad guys. To be clear, I'm talking about Zionists and the state of Israel here. Zionists and the state of Israel are the bad guys, it's actually super simple and not complex at all unless you get into weird genocide apologist explanations where the creation of Israel was legal and thus totally legit. White people are famously very reasonable and kind in their "legal" dealings with the people whose land and resources they steal, just ask the native Americans. Or black Americans. Or South Americans. Or Koreans. Or Vietnamese. Or Libyans. Or Iraqis...
Israel was quite literally created on stolen land, that's not a controversial statement to anyone who knows anything about Israel. The only way to argue against that point is to say that the British Mandate for Palestine was good and just, and I don't think anyone believes literal colonial administrations are good and just, right? But maybe dead will disappoint us all by saying that colonial rule was fucking rad and Palestinians were well represented. That is certainly in the cards!
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Kaelik
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by Kaelik » Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:25 pm

It's not quite the second one.
The point of mentioning only tangentially related historical things and the summarizing the intense wars of conquest waged by Israel and their occupation as "the conflict" is to pretend that having an opinion about whether people should be genocided depends on the league of nations proclamations and diverting attention away from things like Israeli segregation orders, Israeli theft of land, Israeli attacks on Palestinians, Israeli attempts to starve people into genocide, and US bombs dropped by US planes with Israeli pilots, because unlike "the breakup of the ottoman empire" thinking about those things reminds people how bad things are and whose fault that is.

> Unrestricted Diplomat 5314 wrote:Accept this truth, as the wisdom of the Crafted: when the oppressors and abusers have won, when the boot of the callous has already trampled you flat, you should always, always take your swing."

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MGuy
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### Re: The Biden Administration (No Lago)

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Post by MGuy » Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:49 pm

Well it's good to know that dead's wife along with thinking providing medical care is evil communism she also is not opposed to genocide.
The first rule of Fatclub. Don't Talk about Fatclub..
If you want a game modded right you have to mod it yourself.

> MGuy wrote:Finally a thread about fighters!

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