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MrWaeseL
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### I don't get taxes.

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Post by MrWaeseL » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:40 pm

The great thing about percentages is that they gets bigger when the number they're based on get bigger. So 30% of 100,000$ is more than 30% of 50,000$
So why do higher incomes pay a higher percentage tax? That double standard is bullshit.
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:53 am

Because all people need to eat. All people need housing, medicine, toothbrushes, baths, schools, recreation.
As your income increases, your ability to consume that income goes down... Haven't you ever heard of the concept of 'disposable income'? Well, most people don't have any. The more money you make, the more you have.
So it doesn't hurt, financially, as much to pay a higher percentage of your income in taxes - as it comes out of this money above and beyond what you need to live.
A flat percentage is not 'fair', because of this limit of basic consumption.
Basically, any time you hear someone (like you) talk about how unfair tax brackets are - they don't realize they're merely showing their ignorance of this basic economic rule.
-Crissa
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Neeek
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Neeek » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:07 am

Additionally, the entire point of income taxes, in America at least, is to take money away from people who have too much.
There are two reasons for this:
1) To prevent the creation of an aristocracy
2) To keep money in circulation.
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Catharz
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Catharz » Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:40 am

Heh, my girlfriend was asking my about flat tax last night.
Tax brackets, in fact, can be quite unfair. For example, they don't automatically scale with inflation, so you could end up overtaxing people because they were considered 'rich' 20 years ago (which is happening in my state).
And flat taxes can be just as socialist as continuous or bracket taxes. Just set the flat tax rate at 50+% and do the wealth redistribution after taxing, with social welfare programs. It's totally arbitrary. It's just that you have to rely more on being able to trust the government if they ain't flat.
In any case, brackets are just retarded compared to using a continuous function.
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Josh_Kablack
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:37 am

Having actually worked in income tax preparation, I just have to say that the closer you look at the current overlapping tax systems, the less sense they make.
If you work in my city of Pittsburgh, you are honestly better off earning $11,999 in a year than $12,025 due to the flat-fee with discount nature of our local EMS/OCC tax.
Heaven forfend that you live in the borough of Mount Oliver, in which case you have to pay a 1% income tax to the borough, but 2% to the City of Pittsburgh School district. The fun part is that the borough wants it's money by Jan 31st while the City waits for April 15th (17th thanks to Maryland's wacky holiday). The borough also charges a flat $25 penalty plus monthly interest on any late payments, even as small as a dollar. But of course, those late payments will be deductible on your next year federal income tax if you itemize on schedule A (which you'll probably only be able to do if you're well off enough to have a mortgage). But if it's later shown that there was an error in those fines, then you'll owe federal income tax on the difference in a future year, as it retroactively becomes an illegitimate deduction. And I am not making any of this shit up.
Our tax code honestly spells out that living in Sealab=Resident Alien. Mole Machine =Resident Alien. Living on a Zepplin=Non-Resident Alien. Seriously
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Count Arioch the 28th
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:39 am

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1176425637[/unixtime]]
> Basically, any time you hear someone (like you) talk about how unfair tax brackets are - they don't realize they're merely showing their ignorance of this basic economic rule.

Crissa, why can't you explain something to someone without being snotty to them?
It's like whenever anyone doesn't know something that you do know, you take it as a personal attack and start making needless personal attacks.
There was no reason in the world to attack Mr WaeseL in that fashion. NONE. He asked a question, you could have just explained it to him politely without resorting to childish insults.
To be quite honest, the way you talk to people you perceive as someone who doesn't know as much as you do is the main reason why I don't like you. You never explain anything calmly or rationally, you never show any patience or kindness. you go right for the name-calling. As the old saying goes, "Someone who is nice to you but is rude to the waiter is not a nice person." You, madam, need to learn some patience. Not everyone has direct access to your brain and thought process, and it is silly to discriminate against someone just because they don't.
I'm only telling you this because I don't think you quite realize just how you come off on this forum.
Also, I believe that when it comes to socialism, the Netherlands has their shit together better than America has by a great deal. 'Course I don't know everything you know, so perhaps that means you'll accuse me of being a nazi sympathizer or something nonsensical such as that.
Also, (since this post will most likely be deleted and/or heavily edited by the time fbmf reads it), I'd like to say my scorpions are very active today. It's kind of cute the way they pinch the heads off of crickets and eat them whole.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Catharz
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Catharz » Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:57 am

> Josh_Kablack at [unixtime wrote:1176435460[/unixtime]]
> Our tax code honestly spells out that living in Sealab=Resident Alien. Mole Machine =Resident Alien. Living on a Zepplin=Non-Resident Alien. Seriously

It looked like that only applied to noncitizens. Am I missing something?
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Josh_Kablack
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:07 am

> Catharz at wrote:
> It looked like that only applied to noncitizens. Am I missing something?

Correct, it only applies to non-citizens, as it is a residency test to determine their correct filing status. Nonetheless, the following guidelines from that page are part of our tax code:

> The term United States includes the following areas.
> * All 50 states and the District of Columbia.
> * The territorial waters of the United States.
> * The seabed and subsoil of those submarine areas[/b] that are adjacent to U.S. territorial waters and over which the United States has exclusive rights under international law to explore and exploit natural resources.
> The term does not include U.S. possessions and territories or U.S. airspace.

There must be important political reasons for the distinction between the third point and the disclaimer below, but it sure looks like just rampant zaniness to me.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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technomancer
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by technomancer » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:50 am

Presumably it's so that ... um... cloud giants?
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tzor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by tzor » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:05 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1176425637[/unixtime]]Basically, any time you hear someone (like you) talk about how unfair tax brackets are - they don't realize they're merely showing their ignorance of this basic economic rule.

Ugh, reading that just made me feel sick. (Which wasn't all that hard as I am recovering from a cold.)
Liberal, socialist, neo-comunist claptrap aside the reason for scaled tax brckets has nothing to do with the notion that the rich must pay more than the middle class or anything else of that nature; it's to keep the rich from paying less because the more you make the more ways you can find to avoid pying tax through various deductions.
Personally if I had to design a system from scratch I would design and pattent my "Offset flat Tax." In the offset flat tax one would pay a certain tax for anything earned abve the offset. (If you earned less than the offset you would be enetitled to a refund ... thus if you got the numbers right welfare and tax would be married into a happy union.)
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Josh_Kablack
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:42 pm

> tzor wrote:
> Liberal, socialist, neo-comunist claptrap aside the reason for scaled tax brckets has nothing to do with the notion that the rich must pay more than the middle class or anything else of that nature; it's to keep the rich from paying less because the more you make the more ways you can find to avoid paying tax through various deductions.

Sorry, Tzor, but I gotta call you on both of those.
The reason for a graduated income tax is Adam Smith, or at least certain interpretations of his words. The most common Adam Smith quote used to justify graduated income tax is "The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities…" Although that could very well also be applied to a flat percentage income tax.
Linky with more Adam Smith quotes
As to your second point, The Alternative Minimum Tax is the method the IRS uses to make the rich actually pay taxes instead of just collecting deductions. It's noteworthy as it is the one facet of our tax system for which there is the political will to actually make beneficial changes.

> tzor wrote:
> Personally if I had to design a system from scratch I would design and pattent my "Offset flat Tax." In the offset flat tax one would pay a certain tax for anything earned abve the offset. (If you earned less than the offset you would be enetitled to a refund ... thus if you got the numbers right welfare and tax would be married into a happy union.)

I'm with you on that one. A lot.
If you could manage to fold local income taxes, state income taxes, medicare, FICA, FUTA, PA Unemployment, EMS Taxes, State Sales Taxes, Regional Asset District Taxes and at least some of the various user fees (examples: Tolls, Bus Fare, Garbage Collection, etc) into a system like that I will personally join your revolution to establish such a system.
I wouldn't mind if you decided to leave "sin taxes", utility taxes, fines, permit fees and lotteries (aka statistical ignorance taxes) more or less as they are.
The current tax/welfare hybrid of the EITC is an abyssmal failure that only really serves to encourage child-swapping amongst extended familes with members whose incomes vary year to year while confusing and intimidating the very people it is designed to help. As an added bonus, it's one of the most frequently used methods for cheating on taxes, so it also makes the IRS's job more difficult we get to waste tax dollars on enforcement which would be unessescary with cleared tax codes.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Username17
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Username17 » Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:16 am

The way I see it, the graduated income tax is a total no brainer. There are certain minimum expenditures, and people with more money have more disposable income proportionately than people with less money. The very richest of all actually do have more money than they can spend - which means that the amount of money that can be taxed from them without them really noticing is in fact infinitely more than it is for those on the bottom of the income ladder.
Furthermore, if you think you're going to miraculously solve people's ability to calculate their owed taxes freehand by making it a flat percentage you're fooling yourself. The budget of the United States is approximately 3 trillion dollars all told and that works out to about a third of the net national income. So what? You're going to have everyone divide by three and get their owed taxes? Good luck with that!
Not only is that on the face of it cruel and unusual to the 37 million people in the united states who make less than $10,000 a year, you also have to contend with the fact that a very large number of people actually cannot accurately do simple arithmetic.
What you are asking people to do - to subtract a flat number like $10,000 from their income and then have the people pay a 50% flat tax on the 6 trillion dollars of remaining income in the US is likewise impractical. A lot of people seriously can't do that math. If people can't figure out that a Monk's attack bonus won't hit an AC 30 Mature Adult Dragon, do you honestly think that they can get order of operations right on a "subtract then divide" system?
And in any case, what's the fvcking point of having an arbitrary cut-off where people start getting heavily taxed? If you accept the graduated income tax sufficiently to have the "offset flat tax", why stop there? You're already axing 0% on the guy who makes 10k, 25% on the guy who makes 20k, and 45% on the guy who makes 100k, why is it so important to let the people who make a million grand off the hook at only 49.9%? Don't you think there's something fishy there at the high end?
As long as people can't do their taxes freehand anyway (and they can't), what's the impetus to make the graduation of taxation simple? I think we can all agree that the arbitrary nature of the cutoffs or offsets lead to painful breakpoints that senselessly punish one group or another, why not put it all into a continuous function?
Simply put: the more dollars you make, the less of each additional dollar you need to live and maintain your lifestyle. Instead of worrying about exactly where the breakpoints are, we could instead just have a system by which seriously every dollar is separately with each individual dollar forking over more of itself to the running of society as a whole than the previous. It would require calculus to generate your owed taxes, but if you loaded it into a computer lookup table the amount of owed taxes would appear on the screen the instant you had typed your numbers in.
---
Our tax system is a mess. But that's what you get when your tax code is written by adversarial groups some of which are deliberately attempting to undermine the entire system. The solution is simplicity, but not mathematical simplicty. The math is all behind the scenes, it doesn't matter if anyone even knows what it is. The solution is to simplify the system by which the input numbers are generated.
I could give a rat's ass if I know why I'm paying a certain amount of taxes on my modified income of whatever dollars. But I'd damn well better know why my modified income is however many dollars it is.
This is the future, we can use fvcking calculaters and computers to handle any mathematical formula of arbitrary complexity. It's the tomes and tomes of special exemptions and income modifiers that have to go.
-Username17
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Sat Apr 14, 2007 3:06 am

You don't have to get taxes. But you get insulted when you find you don't know something like Marginal Utility?
If telling you that you don't understand B because of A is an insult, I don't know what we can do for you. Unfortunately in the US, what we seem to do is let you stand up and put you on equal footing with the guy who knows what it means, and has a huge, knowledgeable support network to base this knowhow on.
The fact that your state has 'stupid taxes' is because there are people who don't want it to work.
The other fact is that things need to be paid for - be it roads, public health (so you don't get your neighbor's sickness), schools (so we hopefully don't have people who don't understand things voting on them), social services (so we don't have old people rotting on our lawns), and safety (so we don't have con people, fires, die in natural disasters or from other people's neglegence).
And... deductions? Only rich people have those.
-Crissa
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Josh_Kablack
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Sat Apr 14, 2007 6:46 am

> Frank wrote:
> This is the future, we can use fvcking calculaters and computers to handle any mathematical formula of arbitrary complexity. It's the tomes and tomes of special exemptions and income modifiers that have to go.

No, actually we can't.
Here's why: we are still (at least nominally) a democracy, well okay, we're really a republic with democratic tendencies. But that means the people in charge are in charge for their skillz at schmoozing and speechifying and not for their mathematical abilities, or pattern recognition skills. Putting such people in charge of a tax code that they can't understand is going to produce nothing but a slow accumulation of arbitrary or possibly harmful changes to that tax code.
Seriously, the next time you meet a politician campaigning for anything above dogcatcher, ask them what their own sum total tax burden was for the most recent year they filed, just to the nearest 5%.

> Crissa wrote:
> And... deductions? Only rich people have those.
> -Crissa

Define what you consider to be rich and I'll give you a potential exception to that blanket statement.
For that matter, perhaps you should clarify what you mean by "deductions"?
Are you using it in the formal sense of Standard Deduction / Itemized Deduction (everyone gets one of those), or are you using it in the informal sense, meaning where adjustments to Income, deductions and tax credits can also be considered?
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:04 pm

Do you even know what a deduction is?
People in the lower half of income have themselves, their children, and maybe a house to deduct. But home ownership in the lower half of income is not even a majority.
What other things can you deduct from taxes? Do you even know? Think about it.
-Crissa
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tzor
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by tzor » Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:52 pm

@Josh. The AMT was established and came into effect in 1970 by the Tax Reform Act of 1969. It is therefore an addon to the general tax structure and cannot be used to explain design features in the income tax system which were present in the beginning
@Crissa. Charity. That is the biggest tax deduction most people can claim. There were times many years ago when my income tax return went from red to black immediately after I entered my charity contributions into the computer program. Most other deductions have been severely limited or require minimums that most people can't meet.
(Thus it is really pretty ironic that most people who harp on "separation of church and state" don't realize that the state does indirectly pay each and every church because every dollar that is given by the people to those churches results in a lowered revenue pool for the government to tax.)
The second only applies to those who work in a cool company. A 401k plan allows you to sneak away up to $15,000 without paying tax on it. It doesn't count for income! The problem is that savings in general is harder for most americans than charity and that you have to be employed to a company with a good plan for it to be effective.
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fbmf
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by fbmf » Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:05 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1176581058[/unixtime]]Do you even know what a deduction is?
> People in the lower half of income have themselves, their children, and maybe a house to deduct. But home ownership in the lower half of income is not even a majority.
> What other things can you deduct from taxes? Do you even know? Think about it.
> -Crissa

[TGFBS]
Crissa, there is absolutely no reason to be so rude. Cut it out. Now.
[/TGFBS]
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Josh_Kablack
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:23 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1176581058[/unixtime]]Do you even know what a deduction is?

Yes, for US federal income taxes, it is a number which is subtracted from Adjusted Gross Income to arrive at the figure of Taxable Income, which is then compared to the tax tables to determine federal income tax liability. Then you subtract any applicable tax credits* any tax payments from tax liability to arrive at tax due/refund owed.
*Well except that most (but not all) credits are non-refundable and cannot reduce tax liability below zero.

> People in the lower half of income have themselves, their children, and maybe a house to deduct. But home ownership in the lower half of income is not even a majority.
> What other things can you deduct from taxes? Do you even know? Think about it.

Not to be rude here, but you are not clearly not using terms in the same way that myself, accounts and the tax code uses them. Getting accusatory is not going to help us reach common ground.
But to answer your question:
Just about *every* US citizen who files federal income tax gets either their own standard deduction or they may claim itemized deductions if the itemized deductions are larger. Notable exceptions are people who file as dependents of other tax payers (they still get a reduced standard deduction) married couples filing separately (that's to prevent couples who try to game the tax code from double dipping). There are some exceptions for non-citizen taxpayers.
Itemized deductions consist of

- Medical Expenses in excess of a percentage of adjusted gross income (AGI)
- State and Local Income Taxes, or sales taxes if greater (also some less common local taxes)
- Mortgage Interest Payments (also some less common interest payments)
- Charitable Contributions (up to 30% of AGI
- Casualty and Theft Losses (subject to limits to lengthy to go into here)
- Unreimbursed Employee Business Expenses
- Other investment or professional expenses
- A small number of misc. deductions, such as gambling losses.

If all of those together total less than or equal to $5,150 (single), $10,300 (MFJ) or $7,550 (HoHH) for tax year 2006, then the taxpayer(s) should take the standard deduction, as that's more beneficial to them.
That covers what "deduction" is most commonly used to refer to. As to your general assertion that "poor people don't get deductions", you're not wrong in spirit, it's just that your wording choice is atrocious (hence why I felt had to go to such length to explain what a "deducation" was) and you are also over-generalizing.
But here's why you're wrong: if you're using the informal sense of "deduction": Not all poor people are exclusively employees. Many people in fields such non-lucrative fields a Roleplaying Game Writing, Street Vending, Traveling Sales, Garage Band Performance, Construction, and Janitorial Work are technically independant contractors, and are therefore a sole proprieter of their own business by the tax code and must file schedule C on their federal income tax. And on schedule C, there is fairly wide latitude for a taxpayer to subtract many work-related expenses.

- Examples: If you write some freelance articles for Dragon, your subscription to Dragon is a work-related expense that you can subtract from the profit you make in payments. If you play in a local band, you can take depreciation on your instrument and you may be able to use form 8829 to subtract amounts based on which part of your apartment you use to practice

If you can scrape up enough of these assorted expenses to show a loss for tax purposes, you can enter that loss on line 13 of your 1040, and while it is technically part of income (as opposed to an "adjustment to income" or a "deduction") it is referenced as a "deductible loss". So in the informal sense, all you need is a garage band that's not turning a profit, and you've got a tax deduction. That's hardly exclusive to the rich.
So in conclusion I think I've pretty definitively shown that the statement:

> Deductions - Only rich people have those.

is blatantly false as there exist deductions available to taxpayers at all levels of income and assets.
You want to talk about why progressive taxation is a good idea in theory, or about the myriad of ways that our tax systems in this country get less progressive each year, I'm down with that, but I really don't think that the state of taxation in the US is anywhere near as simplistic as you have been implying.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:58 am

Why should I be polite to people so ignorant, fbmf?
They don't understand that for half of those deductions, you need to make more than the bottom 50% make in gross income. For the other half, you have to spend more than they make, net.
Such gross ignorance doesn't really deserve a response.
-Crissa
401K plan? Do you even know what the bottom 50% make? They don't have 401K plans. They don't have itemized medical expenses. They don't have corporate/business capital writeoffs. They don't have charity receipts. They don't have the money to sock away in deferred tax plans like the health care savings plans.
Look up what 50% of the nation makes, first.
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fbmf
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by fbmf » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:00 am

> Crissa wrote:
> Why should I be polite to people so ignorant, fbmf?(sic)

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Because you possess at least something of a desire to continue posting here.
[/TGFBS]
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Crissa
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Crissa » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:03 pm

> fbmf at [unixtime wrote:1176631217[/unixtime]][The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
> Because you possess at least something of a desire to continue posting here.
> [/TGFBS]

I wasn't being rude. I didn't call anyone names, or even refer to anyone specifically.
The whole concept of walking in, being ignorant, and then being insulted when someone points out that your opinion is uneducated - and even offers a way to fix that - how is that an insult?
Either you do or don't understand the concepts brought forth here. Either you do or don't want to read or educate yourself on the topics.
I've given one topic in each post as 'further study'. Each one links to the last one. If it seems I am curt in posting, it is because I believe that people are not stupid; and when given enough pieces, can see the picture the puzzle creates.
-Crissa
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CalibronXXX
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by CalibronXXX » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:45 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1176623925[/unixtime]]401K plan? Do you even know what the bottom 50% make? They don't have 401K plans. They don't have itemized medical expenses. They don't have corporate/business capital writeoffs. They don't have charity receipts. They don't have the money to sock away in deferred tax plans like the health care savings plans.
> Look up what 50% of the nation makes, first.

I made just over 17,000 dollars last year, gross, and donated almost three thousand to various charities, mostly my local church; next year I plan to start contributing a portion of my income to my 401k. I live frugally.
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Maj
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Maj » Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:34 pm

> Calibron wrote:I made just over 17,000 dollars last year, gross, and donated almost three thousand to various charities, mostly my local church; next year I plan to start contributing a portion of my income to my 401k. I live frugally.

I second that. My husband and I live on less than $1000 per month. I still manage to donate to charities and save money each month. A large part of the poverty in America has more to do with a lack of budgeting, poor monetary priorities, and the belief that time is just as valuable as money.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Username17
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Username17 » Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:48 pm

> Maj at [unixtime wrote:1176654877[/unixtime]]

> > Calibron wrote:I made just over 17,000 dollars last year, gross, and donated almost three thousand to various charities, mostly my local church; next year I plan to start contributing a portion of my income to my 401k. I live frugally.

> I second that. My husband and I live on less than $1000 per month. I still manage to donate to charities and save money each month. A large part of the poverty in America has more to do with a lack of budgeting, poor monetary priorities, and the belief that time is just as valuable as money.

You also live in Washington State.

> Fair market rent in 2006 for a 1-bedroom apartment in King County is $698 a month.

> Fair market rent in 2006 for a 1-bedroom apartment in Santa Clara County is $1059 a month.

So if you tell someone in Santa Clara that they should live on less than $1000 a month they will laugh in your fvcking face and call you a liar. I don't think that they are wrong to do so.
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Maj
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### Re: I don't get taxes.

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Post by Maj » Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:17 pm

> Frank wrote:You also live in Washington State.

True.

> Frank wrote:So if you tell someone in Santa Clara that they should live on less than $1000 a month they will laugh in your fvcking face and call you a liar. I don't think that they are wrong to do so.

My sister currently is a student in Santa Clara, so I understand that the cost of existence there is much higher than it is here. And honestly, I'm not trying to suggest that everyone should be able to get by on $1000 a month. I'm merely trying to demonstrate that it's possible. Regardless, that in no way, invalidates my point that a large portion of people are poor because their poverty is in their ability to manage money and time, not in actual income.
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