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## Turn Based Strategy for Noobs (Dom3 argument banned)

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Koumei
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### Turn Based Strategy for Noobs (Dom3 argument banned)

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Post by Koumei » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:50 am

First thing first: let us not discuss Dominions. It looks like it's a good game for those with the patience to really delve into it and read the manuals and that, but it seems too in-depth with too much knowledge needed beforehand for me, and the graphics are kind of ass, too. And by declaring that we won't discuss it, this means Frank and PhoneLobster won't argue with each other in a way that envelops the entire thread.
So let's say someone wants to play a Turn-Based Strategy game. Let's call them "Koumei" for the sake of argument. Pretend for a moment that this person is a bit stupid and impatient* and would prefer a game that has plenty of customisation choices over time (upgrades, adding to your army via conquest, whatever) but at a rate that lets you learn the mechanics through playing. Also assume this Koumei person isn't that great at games in general and is likely to get frustrated/pissed-off if the CPU cheats or the game is simply too hard - though a map creator can alleviate this by making sandboxes or specially-tailored maps designed to allow for their playstyle.
Bonus points if it's kind of pretty. Honestly, HoMaM 2 is acceptable, though pretty high-res sprites or decently-done 3D models can be fantastic. I know that real gamers aren't supposed to care about graphics, and when the first 32-bit consoles came out there was a huge fight over that, but whatever. I imagine this player is pretty shallow, and spoiled by recent games.
Any suggestions? Warlock 2** looks pretty nice, but ads are designed specifically to make you like something, so people's actual opinions would be valued here.
*You don't actually need to pretend.
**I'm at work, I'm not sure that's actually the game in question. "Rats as big as wolves, wolves as big as cities, cities shaped like wolves, and turtles that make the wolf cities look like rats! PURE HEXTACY!"

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GreatGreyShrike
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Post by GreatGreyShrike » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:28 am

I am a big fan of the Civilization games. There's not a whole lot of tactical depth to the combat, but the overall nationbuilding and planning with technologies, diplomacy, multiple avenues to victory, etc is really good. Of all the Civ games I've played, (1-5 and Alpha Centauri), the only one that I didn't really like a whole lot was Civ 4 (the theme song Baba Yetu was by far the best music that Civ has ever had, but that's almost the only redeeming feature compared to other Civ titles). My favorite was probably Alpha Centauri, but the interface and graphics of it is rather dated now - controlling things is obscure and feels bad in comparison to newer titles. Civ 5 is really rather pretty and accessible and interesting, and it has a wide variety of possibly difficulty modes from super easy to quite challenging. It's just a really solid game overall, where you can play and approach the game in a large number of different ways. Also the help and introduction to the game in Civ 5 is nicer than in AC, so there's that - for your specific desires I'd recommend Civ5 over all other entries in the series, it's both more accessible than AC or 2-3, prettier than 2-3, and just a better game than 4.
Masters of Orion 2 is an amazing turn-based strategy game with rather more tactical and military options than the Civ series. It's really old now so the graphics are terrible, but the game is still one of the best and most addictive ever made, and the interface/etc still feels reasonably good. The combat is highly customizable and there are many different valid approaches and tactics. This game has a lot of replay value and enduring appeal.
The newer Kings Bounty games, e.g. Armored Princess et al, feel like playing quite decent single-player Heroes of Might and Magic campaigns with updated (fairly pretty) graphics and a bunch of improvements and new features, and basically no focus on the town but instead focusing laserlike on a single hero. They're quite fun and interesting overall. There's not a huge amount of replayability there, but the games as presented consume a lot of time anyways and are fairly fun for a single playthrough. Difficulty level wasn't particularly high at any point, but neither did it feel too easy - either they're very well balanced or doing something sneaky to scale the difficulty of new challenges based on how you coped with the last.
Last edited by GreatGreyShrike on Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:48 am

Age of Wonders 3 came out pretty recently, and I think it's pretty fun. Fantasy TBS, looks fairly nice, and I play reasonably effectively in spite of not seriously engaging with prior installments. Then again, I did check out a couple LPs first, so I'm not necessarily to be trusted about accessibility.
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Post by Lokathor » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:50 am

Civilization 2 - In 5th grade I got the "Multiplayer Gold Edition" and it was great. Civ3 is worse I'd say, Civ4 is different from 2 in a "mostly better but sometimes i still want to play civ2" kind of way. Civ5 is garbage compared to 2 or 4.
Advance Wars (or any later game) - A little tough until you pick up on the special strategy each mission want you to use.
Master of Orion 2 - This is the turn based space conquest game. Don't play the 3rd on, it's garbage. Don't play the first one probably, it's a little to ancient. But this one, the 2nd one, is absolutely fantastic.
Final Fantasy Tactics - Don't get the PSP remake because they made the entire script all Elizabethan and weird, just get the original version. Alright story, and cool fighting.
Last edited by Lokathor on Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Korwin
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Post by Korwin » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:42 am

> Avoraciopoctules wrote:Age of Wonders 3

I'm having fun with Age of Wonders 3 too.

> Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.

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nockermensch
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Post by nockermensch » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:59 pm

Since Lokathor mentioned FF:T, I can't help but to mention Super Robot Wars OC2 for the GBA. You can play that on emulators. I'm a sucker for turn based tactical RPGs and I'm constantly on search for more. SRW had a pretty good brand of customization and sheer fun.
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Ikeren
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Post by Ikeren » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:25 pm

After the first two paragraphs I was thinking "Heroes of Might and Magic", play any of the ones that are good. Then you called them out, so I imagine you already have.
Last edited by Ikeren on Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Thu May 01, 2014 6:09 am

I've had so much fun with HoMaM 2 in the past, yeah. I still remember making that big-ass "vaguely like Earth" map, scattering everyone's kingdoms and resources almost randomly (like starting a game of Risk) and then realising such a game takes about 12 years to play.
Anyway, I decided to check out AoW3 based on your recommendations. I thought I had read bad things about it here, but that might have been a different game, or one of the previous ones in the series. Going through the Elf campaign, so far it seems to be what I want.

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K
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Post by K » Thu May 01, 2014 6:28 am

Alpha Centauri. Simple to learn, super-cheap on gog.com, hundreds of hours of fun. Pretty much the best introduction to the 4X genre.
Masters of Orion 2 is dated and clunky, but good enough for the price (very low). Tends to get a lot of love from the oldman-gamer crowd, but I don't think it holds up any more even as an oldschool game.
XCOM. Either get the old classic XCOM: Alien Defense for a few dollars, or get the very playable and wonderful new-school version XCOM: Enemy Unknown.
A game that just dropped in alpha is Endless Legend. I'm very excited about it.
I'd avoid the CIV series because it really does require research to play well.
FTL is not a 4x, but a fine strategy game nonetheless.
Warlock and Age of Wonders are basically the same game. Getting any version is basically getting the same game, so pick up a cheap early version on gog.com if you want to check it out
Last edited by K on Thu May 01, 2014 7:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Thu May 01, 2014 8:51 am

Master of Magic is ... too fucking old, which is a shame because it's perfect. Ultra-Elite Paladins and the dominance of life magic notwithstanding. At least once they'd patched it.
Apparently, Age of Wonders and sequels are supposed to be exactly the same game, for most purposes, which must be a good thing. None of the charm, but graphics that don't make your eyes bleed.
Not to argue, but it's also totally the inspiration for Dominions. If Dom was more like Civ2 and had a user interface that didn't kick puppies for recreation.
Agree with the others here too. But there's one they're missing, Galactic Civilisations, it's a Masters of Orion clone that doesn't have all the crippling flaws of that game. Just strait fun to play and pretty quick to get through and win on a small-easy game. No Bulrathi though, so again, kinda lacking the charm.
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Hicks
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Post by Hicks » Thu May 01, 2014 8:59 am

I'm going to second Alpha Centauri, third Masters of Orion 2; these are great games and possess the Hicks seal of Approval.
Science fiction not your thing? The only other 4x turn based strategy game I recommend is Age of Wonders. I can/will only vouch for the original (the sequel didn't do it for me), but is my most favoritest game of my life, before I played Masters of Orion 2, because space ships and you can bombard/create/destroy planets with ships.the size of planets; good times.
And also shout out for FTL. Not turn based or a 4x, but still a great game.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Thu May 01, 2014 11:16 am

Sci-fi isn't particularly my thing, particularly when you're building habitation domes and water extraction facilities instead of crushing things with giant robots. So I prefer my sci-fi to be action games.
What does 4X refer to, anyway?
Also, even on Easy difficulty, the recommended first campaign starts off pretty hard. I can see I'm going to be getting friendly with the cheat codes the entire time :/

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Korwin
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Post by Korwin » Thu May 01, 2014 11:31 am

> Koumei wrote: Anyway, I decided to check out AoW3 based on your recommendations. I thought I had read bad things about it here, but that might have been a different game, or one of the previous ones in the series. Going through the Elf campaign, so far it seems to be what I want.

You might want to check the beta patch.
With it, if an secondary Hero dies, but you win the figth you are able to continue the game.

> Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Thu May 01, 2014 11:38 am

Pretty sure that, being a Steam thing, it's autopatched. My problem isn't with the hero being killed while the forces win the fight, it's with losing the fight outright. But I figure if I instantly build and upgrade "everything" and produce stacks of the highest-ranked monsters, that should help to some extent.
It's annoying that while limited to only what, 5-6 units in an army, you can't stack them onto each other. I liked the way HoMaM would let you produce X number of red dragons, and then X more red dragons, and then you add them together for 2X red dragons that take up one slot.

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Korwin
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Post by Korwin » Thu May 01, 2014 1:32 pm

You can only get 6 into one stack, but you can get multiple stacks into an figth.
Also rushing is the predominant tactic in the campaign.
Also try to kill with you heros since the killing Strike hands out more XP and you get to keep your heroes on the next map.
Doing the Commonwealth campaign atm and The sourceress with chaos rift is ridiculus (but thats the overpowered chaos rift)
Last edited by Korwin on Thu May 01, 2014 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.

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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Thu May 01, 2014 1:45 pm

> Koumei wrote:What does 4X refer to, anyway?

Xplore, Xpand, Xploit, and Xterminate.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Thu May 01, 2014 4:14 pm

Sword of the Stars I is pretty good and fairly simple, and I recommend it. Sword of the Stars II is not good.

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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Thu May 01, 2014 5:37 pm

> Koumei wrote:Sci-fi isn't particularly my thing, particularly when you're building habitation domes and water extraction facilities instead of crushing things with giant robots. So I prefer my sci-fi to be action games.
> What does 4X refer to, anyway?
> Also, even on Easy difficulty, the recommended first campaign starts off pretty hard. I can see I'm going to be getting friendly with the cheat codes the entire time :/

There are definitely cheat codes, somebody posted them in the AoW3 thread.

> dirkformica wrote: Oh and here's some cheat codes:
> Press Ctrl+Alt+C to open up the cheat bar (NOTE: you won't actually see the cheat bar open unless you play in debug mode) and enter one of the following:
> PHILIPS – Complete all production in all your cities
> GLOOMYCITY - Target city recieves -1000 happiness
> HAUER – Levels up hero(es) and units in a selected army
> LEEUWENHOEK – Complete current research
> ERASMUS – Unlock all research
> NEXTTURN – Advances a turn
> REMBRANDT – Gives a ton of Mana
> GERARDS - Instant loss
> RUYTER – Spawn hero
> BOSCH – Gives a ton of Gold
> WARNING: The following cheats can cause crashes and instability
> HEIN – Win the current map. If you use this in the campaign, the next map might not work properly! USE WITH CAUTION!
> CRUIJFF – Allow units to move in the strategic map without using move points
> SPINOZA – Unlock all research from ALL classes and specializations
> HUYGENS – Free spell casting mode (strategic map only)
> BARENTZ – Give vision across the entire map

Also, the key to winning in the campaigns is generally to play aggressively early on. The other factions start with more stuff than you, so they will win if you turtle. Take at least half the map before you consolidate.
Things get much harder later on, but I can't provide much advice beyond campaign mission 4. I've mostly been playing skirmishes.
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Lokathor
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Post by Lokathor » Thu May 01, 2014 10:00 pm

> tussock wrote:Agree with the others here too. But there's one they're missing, Galactic Civilisations, it's a Masters of Orion clone that doesn't have all the crippling flaws of that game. Just strait fun to play and pretty quick to get through and win on a small-easy game. No Bulrathi though, so again, kinda lacking the charm.

In MoO2 you can play "strategic" mode and then you don't have to fiddle with all of your ship designs and crap, they just work. Both GalCiv and GalCiv2 seem to lack this option, and they require you to design your own ships and keep producing new designs and switching your build orders to new designs and all that. I thought it seemed much clunker than MoO2 ever did.

> K wrote:I'd avoid the CIV series because it really does require research to play well.

But... you suggested Alpha Centauri, which is basically the same game.
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K
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Post by K » Thu May 01, 2014 11:04 pm

> Lokathor wrote:

> > K wrote:I'd avoid the CIV series because it really does require research to play well.

> But... you suggested Alpha Centauri, which is basically the same game.

Civ 4 and Civ 5 are a lot more complicated than Alpha Centauri, but I suppose you could dig up an old copy of Civ 3 which is about the same level as Alpha Centauri.
I prefer the flavor of Alpha Centauri because Sid's mechanics make more sense as sci-fi simulators than historical simulators.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Thu May 01, 2014 11:39 pm

Plus, compared to Civ I find it easier to play Alpha Centauri based around the general concept of "My faction is good at X so that's what we're going to do."
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Fri May 02, 2014 1:09 am

If I wanted to Zerg Rush, I'd just play a Real-Time Strategy. Already I'm regretting the expenditure, but I'll just cheat like a motherfucker and start the game with assassins, succubi, void walkers and your mum.
So clearly I need to amend the search query: are there any games that fulfil the above criteria and reward you for settling down, exploring a bit for resources, developing your cities and making the best units rather than running ahead with Zerglings in the first three turns?

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name_here
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Post by name_here » Fri May 02, 2014 2:10 am

> So clearly I need to amend the search query: are there any games that fulfil the above criteria and reward you for settling down, exploring a bit for resources, developing your cities and making the best units rather than running ahead with Zerglings in the first three turns?

The Civ series and Alpha Centauri, Master Of Orion, Galciv, and Sword Of The Stars all do that to a certain extent. I mean, ultimately if you're close to someone and you build military units in the early game and they don't, you're generally going to win, but superior technology and production is a pretty big deal, and you want to devote a non-zero percentage of your resources to research and expansion even with an extremely aggressive early game strategy.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Fri May 02, 2014 2:16 am

> Koumei wrote:If I wanted to Zerg Rush, I'd just play a Real-Time Strategy. Already I'm regretting the expenditure, but I'll just cheat like a motherfucker and start the game with assassins, succubi, void walkers and your mum.
> So clearly I need to amend the search query: are there any games that fulfil the above criteria and reward you for settling down, exploring a bit for resources, developing your cities and making the best units rather than running ahead with Zerglings in the first three turns?

That's pretty much how strategy games have worked for as long as there's been a strategy genre - more territory, more resources. The earlier you hold a territory, the more resources it gives you before the game ends. The first part of the game is a rush to draw borders, and opting out of it means your economy sucks and you lose (unless the AI is stupid or the campaign is easy, then sometimes you can get away with inoptimal play). As someone who also has the habit of playing singleplayer strategy games like relaxed empire-building sandboxes, I feel your pain. You are probably looking for something closer to a simulation/management game, except unfortunately almost all of those boil down to "Europe, Year XXXX: Spreadsheet Edition."
I recommend just cheating (or even cheating by modding, if a particular game has modding) to make up for the economic shortcomings of your playstyle, then going normally from there. Alternatively, you could always get gud, noob (couldn't help myself). No, really; play the blitz game until you have a respectable portion of total territory, then activate "turtle in the sandbox" mode.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Fri May 02, 2014 2:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Fri May 02, 2014 2:39 am

Civ 5 is actually moderately good about territory rushing as well as military rushing. There's a number of reasonably powerful one-per-nation buildings that require you to have a certain building in all of your cities and get more expensive the more cities you have, the cultural policy trees get rapidly more expensive with more cities, and there's a bunch of other systems that make having only a couple cities pretty practical. The latest expansion also introduced Venice, which can't found additional cities or fully occupy conquered ones, though they can expend a Great Merchant to buy out a city state. They get bonuses with the new trade system that let them make a ton of money.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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