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Grek
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Post by Grek » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:04 pm

That's not a solution. The answer to the question "Where can I get more blood so that I can get more minions so I can kill more people?" is "I can kill people and suck their blood." This doesn't prevent it from happening, it just requires that the spawn-maker kill increasingly large numbers of people nightly.

> FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.

> Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.

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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:09 pm

Your spawn cap is linked to one of your existing character stats. I think that works pretty decently as a limit on prevting Shadow over the Sun.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:26 pm

> Grek wrote:That's not a solution. The answer to the question "Where can I get more blood so that I can get more minions so I can kill more people?" is "I can kill people and suck their blood." This doesn't prevent it from happening, it just requires that the spawn-maker kill increasingly large numbers of people nightly.

Heh. Good luck with infinite minions based on killing an infinitely large number of people each night and then feeding their blood to your arbitrarily large group of followers.
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Grek
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Post by Grek » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:55 pm

> Judging__Eagle wrote:Your spawn cap is linked to one of your existing character stats. I think that works pretty decently as a limit on prevting Shadow over the Sun.

This is a good plan.

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:Heh. Good luck with infinite minions based on killing an infinitely large number of people each night and then feeding their blood to your arbitrarily large group of followers

The point isn't to have an arbitarily large group of followers, just however many you happen to need to break the game in half by being able to overthrow countries with your ghoul/vampire spawn death squads(who can travel across the world and hide outside of reality using magic, which means that the number needed to break the game could very well be about 30.) and making all of the players ask "What do we even need the masquerade for? We could totally take on the army if we get enough spawn together."
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:57 am

Spawn Cap of 5, I think that's managable, and pretty expansive.
The "old" backgrounds went to 5 ranks as well btw.
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Flumph
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Post by Flumph » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:38 am

Interesting...
Has the original thread been archived anywhere?
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:04 am

> JE wrote:Spawn Cap of 5, I think that's managable, and pretty expansive.
> The "old" backgrounds went to 5 ranks as well btw.

Would a Spawn Cap of "Potency" be too limiting for starting Vampires? Starting vampires would have a spawn cap of 1 and Lucius would have a Spawn Cap of 10.

> Flumph wrote:Interesting...
> Has the original thread been archived anywhere?

As far as we can tell, the thread got lost in a server burp. However enterprising people snagged some key discussions from Google archives.
In other news, here are the current four Player Character covenants and three NPC covenants:

Covenants
“New plan: we don't cut each other's head off in an attempt to gain asymmetric power.”
Whether they like it or not, supernatural characters in the World of Darkness are subject to the rules and judgments of one or more of the Covenants. Acting as defacto nation states, covenants provide a Hobbesian mandate of behavior that is difficult to ignore. Characters may indeed be a member of one of them, which provides benefits comparable to those of being the citizen of an archaic empire. However, breaking the edicts of any covenant is punishable by that covenant if it catches you (subject to possible negotiations if you are a well placed member of another).
The covenants are as a whole not called that. In fact, they aren't called anything as a whole in-game, because they don't belong to any over organizations. Each is kind of like a mafia, with some sort of shady leadership hierarchy and elaborate titles to convey subtle differences in duties and status. In reality all the covenants exist to fulfill essentially the same task, so while they spend a fair amount of time insulting one another, it is profoundly unusual for them to actually come to blows. Each covenant provides the following:

- Preserves the Masquerade – each group calls it something different, but everyone is keenly aware that sufficient numbers of peasants with torches have slain supernatural creatures in the past and will do so again if the lid isn't kept on pretty tight.
- Facilitates Social Interaction – for all the nosferatu babble about how they prefer the life of the hermit, they really don't. Normal humans are incapable of really understanding what it is like to be a supernatural creature and really the only peers a Leviathan has is other Leviathans, or at least other supernatural creatures.
- Acts as a framework to work out differences – supernatural creatures exist outside and in many ways above normal human societies, and live their life very much like a Hobbesian battle of All against All. And while it is true that their power and mystery does make them well qualified to do that, they have no unique advantages over other supernatural creatures. And thus it is in true Hobbes fashion the creatures have put together over organizations to keep each other in check. Arguing things out with an Archon is slow, but many supernatural creatures have a lot of time.

Covenants do not, as a rule, recognize dual citizenship or anything of the like. And switching one's status from one to another is a slow painful process that generally just isn't done. But a supernatural creature from one covenant can generally expect to not get stabbed in the face or eaten by members of another. A supernatural creature from another covenant can expect to be treated as a foreigner, but not as a foreigner from a nation that is at war with the local one. Indeed, since all the covenants are international and borders are pretty vague even when they exist at all you can pretty much go where you want without getting much more than the fish eye. And that mostly from Leviathans who actually have fish eyes.
Western Camarilla (New World Order)
“Lack of loyalty is one of the major causes of failure in every walk of life.”
The Camarilla is, according to its own history, an ancient truce declared between various supernatural creatures long ago in Babylon. It was apparently put together in the face of some grave threat which is no longer talked about. Members of the Camarilla are called “Kindred,” and the regional leadership is divided into “cities,” “domains,” and “kingdoms” of which terms are all used interchangeably. Regional leadership is held by a Primogen Council, which powerful kindred are apointed to for life, and this council is led by a Prince or Aval (both are unisex terms which predate their use in royalty). How much influence the prince actually has varies from region to region. A primogen or prince who travels to another domain is automatically a member of the primogen council wherever they happen to be.
Laws of the Camarilla are hopelessly baroque, and most of the old ones are shockingly specific and draconian and inscribed into clay tablets. They have by and large been repealed and replaced with ones which are easier for everyone to get along with. Still, there are some hangers on, as it is widely reported that it is still technically a death sentence for the perpetrator and their three closest friends to steal an aurochs from a member of the kindred.
Probably Established: 8th century BCE, Persia

- Supernatural Creatures in The Camarilla
- Leviathans – Ancient laws require Leviathans to prove themselves in odd ways such as displaying their blood color and walking on salt before being granted the status of provisional kindred. Treated as second class members even then, tensions between Leviathan members and the established order have remained high for over two thousand years.
- Lycanthropes – Camarilla protocols for dealing with lycanthropes have historically been to give them a “join or die” alternative.
- Prometheans – Since Prometheans do not reproduce in any way, every single one is treated as a unique individual. Moreover, a Promethean oft finds an easy task to get into high positions into the Camarilla, as their inherent lack of familial connections makes them seem less politically threatening.
- Transhumans – The Camarilla maintains extensive lists and investigations of reincarnation, and actively recruits the reincarnations of particularly effective people from history into their ranks. These people are afforded the respect which would be due their past lives without question or comment. Camarilla leadership is openly dubious and somewhat frightened by humans who invoked their own transformations with magic or science which has been invented within the last 1000 years or so.
- Vampires – The founding members of the Camarilla were supposedly vampires. Many of the highest ranking members are vampires, especially in the Middle East and Central Asia. Whether this is because the vampires have survived the millennia better than the other creatures to gradually rise to the top or started there is a question that can only be answered by the vampires who would inclined to claim to be the original leadership regardless.

Eastern Camarilla (Carthians)
“Tradition is but the illusion of permanence. Change is not just inevitable, it is good.”
Supernatural societies have with necessity been extremely conservative over the generations. And such it was that when the age of enlightenment hit the human world, the supernatural world found itself falling behind. The Carthian movement was founded as a reform movement for the supernatural world to take advantage of the new ideas and opportunities found in human science. Arranged in a “cell structure”, the Carthian Movement nominally holds that all of their membership is equal, save for the Revolutionary Committee members themselves who are substantially more equal.
The Carthians hold that advancements in human strength and society are, or at least can be, for the good of the supernaturals. Rather than viewing the world as shrinking, leaving them with less and less space in which to hide, the Carthians view the world as growing with more and more humans and cities with which to obscure themselves. The Carthian masquerade is one based largely upon anonymity rather than invisibility.
The Carthian Movement appeals to the young (which in supernatural terms means the last 400 years or so), and campaigns for the removal of traditional privileges for the ancient and established monsters of the world. The Carthians favor change and a new way of doing things modeled upon human reforms, but that's about as far as they go in agreeing with one another. It is easy to get the distributed Carthian apparatus to help tear down something or turn upon a criminal, but relatively difficult to pass effective resolutions. The ideological divides amongst the Revolutionary Committee are fierce and hard drawn, so the group as a whole acts rarely and with much debate on matters of anything but immediate survival.
Probably Established: 1st century CE, China.
The Sabbat
“A bishop of the Sabbat can believe anything, but most of us don't.”
The effect of the Roman Catholic Church on human history is hard to over estimate. As Rome itself was coming crashing down, Europe was largely cut off from the Middle East, Africa, and points further in Asia. Europe became isolated, and the influence of the Camarilla all but vanished. It was at this time that the supernatural creatures of the European region created a new organization modeled on the fledgling Roman Catholic Church.
The Sabbat has extremely confused theology and you are specifically not allowed to be excommunicated for heresy. After all, the Sabbat's primary role is to facilitate social interaction and conflict resolution between members rather than to advance any specific theological agenda. The Sabbat is led by an Anti-Pope who wears a mask and whose identity is nominally secret. The Anti-Pope leads the council of Cardinals, from whom he or she is nominated, and does so for an unspecified amount of time before being replaced – occasionally by themselves in a different mask. Below the cardinals are bishops, below bishops are priests, and everyone else is referred to as “Flock.” Other organizations refer to Sabbat members derisively as “Sheep.”
The Sabbat maintains a number of parallel hierarchies in addition to the primary one. Rather than being a bishop or priest (which is regional), one could be Apostolic Exarch (which governs a region that is not under Sabbat Control), a Military Ordinal (which handles defense of the order regardless of location), or a Palatine (which is organizational and has personnel but no fixed territory). All of these titles carry approximately the same weight as Bishop. The Sabbat also recognizes some of its members as “saints.” Once a Sabbat member has descended into sainthood they carry a status that cannot be taken away, which essentially allows them to speak and be listened to on any issue by any church conclave at any organizational level. Since the membership of the Sabbat are supernatural in nature, the requirements of miraculous activities is entirely a formality and being recognized by the Anti-Pope as a Saint is entirely political. Saints are given spiffy blood red uniforms when they serve in any official capacity and are thence known as Sanguines regardless of their rank or duties.
Law in the Sabbat is confusing and pre-baroque, grounded in Roman law and medieval superstition. It is doctrine in the Sabbat that canon law is infallible, and thus no law is ever replaced or contradicted. The immense amount of doublethink required to make this function at all is produced by Glossators, who philosophize the inordinately convoluted structures whereby contradictory statements can be rationalized as merely seeming to contradict each other. Canon law itself is crafted by a group of bishops called the Heresiarchs who draft documents for potential Anti-Papal blessing. Who sits on the Heresiarch council at any time is highly variable, as a seat becomes vacant whenever a Heresiarch misses two meetings in a row, and an empty seat is filled as soon as seven bishops not on the council, three bishops on the council, or the Anti-Pope nominate one of the other Bishops into the seat.
World wide there are about a hundred bishops or bishop equivalents, and the substantial majority are in Europe.
Probably Established: 5th century CE, Rome.
World Crime League
“Don't tell me that you're innocent. Because it insults my intelligence and it makes me very angry.”
With the encroachment of the Mongols into South and Southeast Asia, the kingdoms remaining outside the Khan's grasp were cut off from trade with the outside world. The supernatural creatures of the region were forced to make their own way, without influence from the old power structures. A pirate navy formed in Southeast Asia, which preyed upon naval traffic and helped fight the Mongol Empire. Keeping themselves on a military, outlaw footing kept the Mongols out of their lands and waters for as long as the Ming dynasty stood, but by the time they had reestablished connections with other Covenants, the Viet Shadow Kingdom had power of its own and its membership had no real desire to rejoin the Camarilla. They instead took their criminal activities world wide and became the League of Pirates, and eventually the World Crime League.
Because of their piratical roots, the World Crime League has a vaguely naval structure at the top. There is a council of Captains who discuss world issues and update the guidelines. Locally, WCL members infiltrate whatever criminal groups happen to be active in the region and modify themselves appropriately. WCL members have risen to high ranks in Triads, Vory, Mafia, and Ghost Cartels.
The WCL values money and other trappings of human temporal power as well as mystical power, and one can literally purchase their way up in the ranks of the Covenant. The group holds that breaking the laws of man and corrupting the values of human society is a goal in and of itself, and undermining the rule of law and morality is seen as a powerful and respectable achievement by the League.
Probably Established: 13th century CE, Dai Viet.
Antagonistic Organizations
“Actually, those guys are just bastards. We fight them.”
What makes an antagonist organization different from a “normal” organization in the World of Darkness is not that they are “the bad guys” – after all it is abundantly clear that a substantial number of people in all the supernatural societies are bad guys. These organizations are filled with blood drinking monsters. No, the salient thing about the Antagonists in this setting is that they are not willing to live and let live with the members of other covenants and cults. So while it is entirely possible to have a story in which one character is from the Camarilla and another is from the Carthians, it is basically impossible to have a cogent story in which one character is in the Marduk Society and the other characters are not.
The assumption then is that the antagonist organizations will be NPC only. The player characters will be members of the standard covenants or independents and as such the warriors of the Shattered Empire who show up at all it will d so as enemies. It is entirely possible to play a campaign in which every character is a member of the Marduk society, and that's fine. If you weren't OK with playing a game that skated closely to the edge of evil you wouldn't be playing a game about vampires and werewolves.
The Marduk Society
“We've slain the monsters of the world until they skulk in darkness like rats. Did you really think the darkness would protect you?”
In ages past the mighty sky wizard Marduk fought with the great Tiamat and slew her, saving humanity from her dark tyranny. As the savior of humanity, Marduk became a wise and just king who ruled over Sumeria thousands of years ago. He passed his magic down to disciples, and in classic fashion they perverted everything Marduk stood for and are now a terrifying edifice.
The Marduk Society retains the ancient magics of Marduk himself and continue to hunt supernaturals, nominally to save humanity from the oppression of supernatural influences. However, the leadership of the Marduk Society actually are supernatural creatures. After ruthlessly hunting down the spawn of Tiamat for generations they found that they were able to grant themselves immortality by eating the flesh of Leviathans, a practice which in reality transforms their elite membership into Leviathans. The sorceries left behind by Marduk are in truth no different from the sorceries of any Witch, and thus it is that the core membership of the Marduk Society are no different from other supernaturals save for the hat they wear and their intense desire to not get along.
Marduk's magic draws heavily upon human fear and suffering to use as power. However, while the historical Marduk apparently used this as justification to wander the lands righting wrongs and saving the endangered, the modern incarnation conspires to make mortal governments oppressive and ruin the lives of children. Ideally they claim that once their war is won they will make all human society utopic, but there is no particular reason to believe this is true.
The King of Three Shadows
“How nice of you to join us. You can share the same fate they are going to suffer.”
Long ago a powerful mortal king married a queen of the fairies. Abandoning his kingdom of men to wither and die, he took a new name and attained everlasting life with a grim bargain with Demons. A bargain that ultimately hurled his kingdom into the deepest pits of the Dark Reflection. The King of Three Shadows has become as the fairy are, and he lives forever without changing. He is now their dark king, and commands the mirror goblins – an army of fairies and demons which do his dark bidding. He is supported in his endeavors by three powerful Fairies – The Three Shadows of the King.
Fairies and Demons have a difficult time getting to the world of man at all, and must pass through a reflective surface to do so. More powerful fairies and demons need more specific mirrors through which to pass, and thus usually require that these doorways be custom built to draw them through. While a minor mirror goblin might be able to come through a pool of water or a pain of glass, powerful demons need a mirrored surface of exacting specifications – for example one might require a mirror at least 2 meters across made of bronze and polished with olive oil, lemon juice, and human blood.
The King of Three Shadows himself requires a titanic and exacting mirror to again trod upon the Earth, and it is thus that he is forced to send minions through the portals to acquire the strange materials and specific events they need to allow him to march across the threshold with his demonic army to conquer the human world.
The Shattered Empire
“They have learned nothing, and they have forgotten nothing.”
According to the Shattered Empire there was once a mighty nation which ruled over all of humanity with magician kings. Where this kingdom actually was, when it existed, who the people were who ran it, and what the cultural traits of it were like are all lost to time. The Shattered Empire calls itself a dozen names: Ur, Atlantis, and Golgatha to name just a few. And while their stories of their glorious days of world ownership are somewhat conflictory, and quite possibly exaggerations or just plain lies, they are nonetheless willing to kill people over their world conquest plans. And that makes them dangerous.
The very top of the Empire is called either the Rain King, the Masked Prophet, or the Once and Future Emperor. Whether these are three different people having a power struggle or one man with a variety of titles is not clear. Cells of the Shattered Empire hide in cave systems, deep in jungles, and on top of forbidding mountains. They collect powerful magics and threaten the world with them.

Discuss?
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:23 am

Yes, that works Frank. I was just trying to think of an existing stat that describes how "supernatural" a creature is, and use that as the cap. 1 to 10 is a good range.
The yngling vampire with a single ghoul minion is very common fare, and believable. The ancient lord with nearly a dozen powerful minions is -also- as common, and believable.
I've got a feeling that every "villan" who has mini bosses, that the PCs have to take down first, is probably something like the vampire-minion set up.
Also, I want there to be a way for anything to have minions.
After all, Mum-Ra and Skeletor had them, and they were... witches?
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MartinHarper
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Post by MartinHarper » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:45 am

What about cloning? If Dr. Frankenstein decided to clone out a thousand new lives, does that work, or can he only make a couple?

> Judging__Eagle wrote:Also, I want there to be a way for anything to have minions.

Well, you can still have more minions by paying them, or convincing them of the merits of destroying the thundercats, or by having sex and making babies.
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zeruslord
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Post by zeruslord » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:57 pm

Golgatha is not a mythological ancient empire at all. It is the hill where the bible records that the Crucifixion took place. I really think you want another word.
The Marduk Society shows up in game when somebody runs up and says "The Marduk Society is poppin' caps in asses" and the King of Three Shadows shows up when the Mirror Goblins kidnap a luminary virgin to sacrifice on top of a nuke they set off in the desert to make enough solid black glass for the giant King of Three Shadows mirror, but how exactly is the Shattered Kingdom meant to be used?
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:08 pm

Shattered Kingdoms = supernaturals thinking they can not only break the Masquerade, but in a way that would subjugate both humanity and all of the other supernaturals
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:23 pm

> zeruslord wrote:...but how exactly is the Shattered Kingdom meant to be used?

I assume that they steal important relics and take them to remote locations. They don't have the organization to really take over the world, but individually have the power to make nuisances of themselves.

So what's the difference between Dominate and Presence? I get the general feeling that Presence is more useful when a horde of peasants want to create you, while Dominate is more useful when someone is mugging you at gun-point.
In Vampire there's a great deal of overlap. In Bloodlines Presence just makes people around you stupid (in ever increasing amounts and areas), while Dominate gives single target effects like 'catatonic until touched' and 'homicidally insane'.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:49 pm

Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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baduin
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Post by baduin » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:05 pm

I would say that Shattered Empire should actually rule in various more obscure parts of the world. For example the old Tibet with it Living Gods poisoning one another seems to be an outpost of the Shattered Empire.
http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-tibet- ... e-against/
http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources ... /index.htm
They could be responsible for such things as the Chinese Taiping revolution,Thule Society, the beliefs in Agharta or Ascended Masters, the immanent return of the Hidden Imam, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascended_master
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ahmad
They are disliked, because whenever they create a new God-King (usually a manipulated mundane) to recreate their empire, they cause chaos. Rampaging armies, famines etc are bad for business.
BTW, this would suggest that Gordon, who fought against both Taipings and Mahdi, was an agent of one of the Coventants, probably Sabat.
A good example of the world-view of human followers of the Shattered Empire (not members, obviously):
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=538412
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=553260
"During the 1920-30's, German researchers who were exploring ancient Nordic writings became adamant believers in the lost continent of Thule, and the race of Aryan super-men who had existed then during a glorious Golden Age. They were convinced that these Aryans were genetically and culturally the most advanced race in world history, and convinced professors and historians believed that the Hyperboreans had telepathic, clairvoyant and thulean powers, as the original Aryans had mastered the secrets of the cosmic life force known as Vril. The Vril / Black Sun is a secret philosophy thousand of years old ~ this also later provided as the foundation on which the Occult & Esoteric practitioners of the Third Reich would later build. The Black Sun symbol can be found in many Babylonian, Sumerian and Assyrian places of worship. They depicted the Black Sun ~ the Godhead's inner light in the form of a cross. The Vril Force or Vril Energy was said to be derived from the Black Sun which is symbolic of the Black Hole that exists with in the center of our Galaxy. This force was known to the ancients under many names, and it has been called Chi, Cosmic Energies, Astral Light, Odin Forces and Christ consciousness.
We ~ Aryans are the descends of the original Hyperboreans, It is said that the collective consciousness / re-unification of all sentient Aryan beings on Earth would be apparent when the new Aeon approaches ~ Aquarius ~ or Golden Age, The Nazi leaders were convinced that all of history was in cycles, consisting of Golden Ages followed by Dark Ages. They believed Earth was near the end of a Cycle when all nations would again be destroyed, as described in the book Revelations. It is not written that this will be the end of all things ~ but rather a new beginning."
"Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat."
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:37 pm

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:So what's the difference between Dominate and Presence? I get the general feeling that Presence is more useful when a horde of peasants want to create you, while Dominate is more useful when someone is mugging you at gun-point.

I feel that Dominate should only affect one target, but give a lot of control, while Presence should affect many targets, but with only vague control.
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baduin
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Post by baduin » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:58 pm

When the ancient Empire got Shattered, its leadership fled underground. Perhaps because of Ice Age, or because their kingdom was destroyed by space devils (whoever they are), or the Sun became poisoned.
Anyway, the immortal leaders of the Shattered Empire live underground in the caves of K'n-yan. The only problem is, those caves are not on Earth, but in Gloom - and they can get out of them only as immaterial ghosts. That is why they always need to set up cults and puppets - they cannot do anything themselves.
In addition, they are paranoidally afraid of the power which shattered their empire, and are determined to hide from it until they can prepare their triumphal return to the surface. Or, perhaps this is only what they say to their followers to expain why they do not use their magical powers to take over Earth now.
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/var33.html
"The "Var" or enclosure of King Jamshed described in the Vendidad (T.R. Sethna's translation of the Holy Vendidad) describes in detail an underground multi-level cavern filled with Zarathushtris which is self-lighted, self-sufficient and self-propagating in all ways, where all the rituals are observed. The descriptions in the Vendidad are very inspiring.
....
And now Zarathushtra was shown an amazing sight. His eyes saw in a vision the ancient VAR - the enclosure and Aryan stronghold of Yima Kshaeta (Jamshed), king of the Aryans twenty thousand years ago. This Var, located in the ancient homeland Airyane Vaejahi (seedland of the Aryans) in the North pole was legendary and the Aryans had almost lost all memory of it, so distant in time seemed the age of it's construction by Yima on the command of Ahura.
Zarathushtra's gaze fell upon a thriving community of splendrous Aryan men, women and children in the Var. They had propagated themselves in the stronghold since the days of Jamshed. Zarathushtra was astonished at the wonders he saw in the stronghold, which was self-sufficient in every way.
The great mystery of the Var was now explained to Zarathushtra by Ahura Mazda. When the Var was constructed, it was the time of the ancient homeland of the Aryans - Airyane Vaejahi (the seedland). For a thousand years Yima had ruled. Three times had he extended the boundaries of his kingdom southwards and to the west...the Aryans had started their great migrations.
And then disaster had struck."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%27n-yan
http://rca.vmk.zhdk.ch/lovecraft/html/mound.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tierr ... ter7-2.htm
http://www.livinginthelightms.com/in_se ... hala2.html
Last edited by baduin on Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat."
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:00 pm

Nice one Baduin. I really like the idea of the Shattered Empire running around fomenting destabilizing cults and spreading superstition. The whole thing where they want to act like oWoD Traditions and get people to believe crazy stuff that would put magical beings on top of society is starkly incompatible with the Masquerade plan everyone else has.
The original impetus for them was the underground "Sumerian" mole people kingdom from the Universal monster movie. But the Sailor Moon "Dark Moon Kingdom" works pretty well too. As does the oWoD Tradition Council.
"You told them how Dominate works?! Why would you do that!?"
"So that they would know that their purpose is to obey us."
"That is not the message that humans are going to take from that!"

> Catharz wrote:So what's the difference between Dominate and Presence?

Dominate controls your mind. Presence makes me convincing.
But yeah, like Potence and Fortitude, they are different power lists, but there is considerable overlap in theme.
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Grek
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Post by Grek » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:40 pm

The Shattered Empire should be run by a group of reincarnated magician-kings from back when the Shattered Empire still ruled everything. When they aren't alive, they are down in the caves of K'n-yan in the Deep Gloom as per Baduin's post. They have cults in the real world who's job is to find where the magician-kings and God-king are going to reincarnate, steal the baby and bring it back to their secret base where their king can grow into adulthood and prepare to conquer the world.

> FrankTrollman wrote:I think Grek already won the thread and we should pack it in.

> Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.

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baduin
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Post by baduin » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:39 pm

Shattered Empire is truly Shattered. Their problem is that the messages from Exalted Masters are contradictory. One cult thinks that the God-King will reincarnate in a given baby; another is breeding a special red cow to make a special sacrifice to make Messiah come.
The narrator of "The Mound" has found a manuscript by one Zamacona and deduced from it that People of K'n-yan believe that they were brought by Tulu from the stars. On the other hand "Immortal Chinamen" teach the other cult that Cthulhu is older than humanity, and his cultists have learned about him from his dreams.
The Ascended Masters from K'n-yan or Shambhala or Agharta are either Aryan or Indian or Chinese or Tibetan or Western Indian or Turkish. Obviously, the Sanhedrin who preserved the sacred teachings of Kabbalah is Jewish.
The Masters teach Nazism or Falung-Gong breathing exercises, or lightworking.
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles ... 6387p.html
'They brilliantly and beautifully conveyed what is extremely difficult to convey, going up to the heavens and the descent to earth, as well as how ascended masters convey to us their wisdom and are here with us. "
http://lightworkers.org/what-is-a-light ... ightworker
"Light Energy has many names. Some names include, the oriental Chi, Yin and Yang, the Indian Prana, and the Greek Aether. The light Energy pervades all. It encompasses all things."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_ ... ary_place)
"In Turkish mythology, Ergenekon is a legendary place located in the inaccessible valleys of the Altay Mountains, where Bumin Khan is supposed to have gathered the Turkic people"
or
"On the other hand, according to Mümtaz’er Türköne, a Turkish political scientist and a columnist, Ergenekon is not a myth that is genuinely long-standing and rooted in the collective memory, but an elaborate hoax. He argues that “Ergenekon was created as a Turkish myth by Yakup Kadri [a prominent man of letters and a close friend of Atatürk’s] during the Turkish War of Independence,” [1] i.e. immediately after World War I"
In other words, no one has desceded to the blue-lit underworld of K'n-yan, and no one knows anything about it. There are various Supernaturals with Gloom powers who claim to have been given those powers and various strange directives by Masters. But each group has its own secret history, its own description of Masters, etc.
http://www.raeal.org/index.php/category/the-awakening/
"Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat."
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:01 am

You get to make any pulp mystery action story ethnic minority into rather collosal and dangerous powers. I don't know if that is good or bad, but it does allow for much more indepth characters.
Also, I have an awesome idea for a entire campaign.
The PCs patron asks them to go on a series of missions to solve problems that they need to fix.
Places like a giant logging camp that has infestations of [something]; the wood is used by many vampires to make their coffins, so each tree is individually cut, and the whole of the tree's wood is selected to make a single coffin, the rest being used to make 'only' luxury furniture. So, it's like, a redwood stand on the North American West Coast; BC, Washington State.... some other places, and California.
Then maybe a horse range that has a werewolf problem. Their patron likes to ride horses, and maybe even some of the really old Supernaturals hail from a horse-riding time, and love to ride, or even race or joust. You don't need many very rich immortals to fund even a fairly humble horse ranch. Like, seriously 5 dudes showing up could fund the ranch. Then say, run a horse show once-twice a year. Each dude will have their most loyal people show up; or maybe even everyone who can, will show up. each person mays a nominal entry fee, and there's a show a traditional cowboy/persian/mongol/blackfoot dinner and then people who are the most un-socially connected to others in the world can spend time with the only people in the world who are remotely like them.
The horse show could be a whole other adventure. So that's 3 so far. I'm going to see when I lose steam.
Next a string of jewellery stores are being knocked over, the suspect(s) are suspected to be supernatural. The PCs need to find a non-supernatural patsy, and take the criminals to the local Camarilla, Sabbat, or World Crime League centre of justice (the local Satrap/Mandarin/Khan/Bishop/Don/Prince) and have them dealt with (probably execution), or somehow have the suspect arrested and remove their supernatural powers (if it's... say a werewolf? or have it be a vampire whose death they fake, and tell that the Camarilla wants to kill, or even bring into the masquerade if they never even knew that such a thing existed.
Then.. some certain books either go missing, are burned in fires, etc. The PCs need to bring down a book-burning cult.
The PCs then have to escort some water being bottled from a spring in a mountain from some place really isolated, maybe some place in.... Africa?
Then a series of mini-missions escorting a gem buyer to several parts of the world (these are meant to be all red-eye flights, hopping from one country to the other, picking up specific gem orders). Sometimes having to deal with the locals, or just having to deal with their environment.
Diamond mines in Africa (yes, those kinds, yes, environment means local guerillas/rebes); Emerald mines in South America, a trip to Australia for some Sapphires. Then India to buy some really old gems (Rubies), and then Tahiti to pick up some Pearls.
Then the PCs find out that a very famous artist has gone out of the public eye. The artist simply cancelled his subscriptions, and told a cousin and some of his peers that he is going to a patron's home to start and finish a painting. Make the Artist Japanese, or whatever major cultural area of the world seems to have been fairly neglected.
Some investigative missions will lead the PCs to a specific location. During these specific invesitgative missions, The DM should throw the PCs every bone possible when it comes to a mission like this, the Artist is paranoid, or was assaulted in the past for their controversial work and has a high quality security camera, that recorded who came to his home. The mailman saw the car that came in (make it unique, and out of state; like a -far- state). The visitors that came to the artists home were foregeiners. A place like Japan can help with this, it's a fairly homogenous country.
The final clues lead to the PC's patrons mansion in [some country that would be cool to have an isolated mansion of some kind].
The PCs now are either attacked by the guards, or invited in, and ambushed or captured. Do this if not all the PCs can be captured in one go. An invisible man, or player that likes to hang back and play sniper can allow for a "capture the PCs" sort of scenario. You need to be flexible.
Anyway, the PCs get free and yeah, their boss is getting the artist to paint a specific image. Except that the image is -on- the patron. He's using the artist as the person to draw the lines, and then cast the ritual that is painted onto his body.
Now, depending on how hard you want this fight, the PCs could interrupt this at different stages.

1. Just after being finished, and just the patron is fought.
2. Once the incant is part started; then 'some' changes will occur, but also maybe backlashes on the patron.
3. Once the incant is finished, but the PCs distract the patron at the last minute and he flubs; or is damaged, and the paint is smeared. So only parts of him change.
4. Once the Incant is finished, and the metamorphosis started; the Boss will get more powerful as time passes; being full powered in 1 minute.
5. The boss is already at full power, this could be very hard, with possibly one or more PCs being dropped or even killed.
   For a boss fight, don't kill more than 1/2 of the PCs, 1/4 to 1/3 is probably more acceptable.
   and.... that's the first time that I've ever written up a campaign, let alone one that does what i've always wanted a campaign to do; end up with a finish where every previous adventure affects the end.
   So, a 9 adventure campaign. Hmm... I was shooting for 10, so that the players can get 10 'arcs' to develop and practise more powers. the Gem-buying mission can be 2 3-stop trips; probably chopped up.
   into something like this
   1. Horse Ranch, deal with [some supernatural that isn't in the party]
   2. Jewellery store heists adventure
   3. Trip to Northern Africa to get water, somewhere in the Sahara, in the mountains, meet isolated troglodytes, or something else if your group already has one. Nezumi, Witches, Android statues, a Bagheera pride.
   4. Gem Buying 01: Emeralds in Columbia, Australia for Sapphires
   5. Logging Camp, deal with goblins and ogres
   6. Horse Ranch, the big social occasion
   7. Deal with Book Stealing/Burning Cult
   8. Gem Buying: Tahitiy for Pearls, India for Rubies, Africa for Diamonds,
   9. Artist missing, have the PCs have a weapon commissioned by this guy, or a friend of the PCs, and ask them to investigate where he went to, the money was returned, but the PC's friend wants the master-crafted weapon, not his money back.
   10. Investigation work
   11. Go to their patron's isolated mansion; big betrayal; big fight
   How does that look for the adventure outline for the aWoD campaign?
   Many of these can be massively expanded upon, such as why [something] is in the forest, and how to make them behave.

Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:44 am

JE, that's awesome. In other news, here's a minimalistic Witch writeup:

Witchcraft
“It's not all hocus pocus and chicanery. There's also sleight of hand and deceit. And raw sorcerous power.”
The core of sorcery in a horror setting is that it's a series of secrets that an individual learns that gives them great powers and is a really bad idea. When Extras attempt to learn Magic they don't turn into monsters or anything, they just end up as cultists. Think Cthulhu or Bible Black cultists. Better yet, don't. Extras who attempt to learn magic usually end up getting sacrificed one way or another, and it's really no better of a deal than being a Vampire Spawn. But for those lucky few who can master the dark arts without succumbing to the whispers or tentacles of demons, a lifetime of sorcerous power and intrigue awaits.
Using magic is, for a mortal, a harrowing, draining, and indeed life and sanity threatening thing. However, through deliberate study or horrid inspiration a human can manage to change themselves into something that can use magic with relative safety and reliability. Once attuned to sorcery a soul can never be the same, and people who become sorcerers can be wicked difficult to get along with or even understand.
The Baali Tradition
“You will not remember what I show you now, and yet I shall awaken memories of love... and crime... and death... ”
Perhaps the most expedient manner to make one's human soul stop reacting poorly to magic is to set it on fire and be done with it. A Baali is someone who did exactly that. Some sell their soul off to demons, while others burn out their souls quickly or slowly with their own dabbling in dark power.
Baali tend to be emotionally distant and enraged by pictures of themselves (such as reflections, paintings, or photographs). This is probably to do with the fact that their souls are burned out husks or trapped far away in a mysterious hell dimension and reminders of their pasts as humans are infuriating. The thing where they are emotionally stunted is probably much the same.
The Baali Witch has an Infernal power source and a Ritual power schedule.

- Baali Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Dominate -
- Command (Basic Dominate)
- Mesmerism (Basic Dominate)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Aura Perception (Basic Auspex)
- Hand of Flame (Basic Walk of Flame)
- Light of Ennui (Basic Descent of Entropy)
- Learn the Heart's Pain (Basic Names of the Blasphemies)
  - Advanced Disciplines -
- Forgetful Mind (Advanced Dominate)
- Fire Starter (Advanced Walk of Flame)

Story Inspiration: The 1932 Mummy, Constantine, Bible Black, Devil's Advocate, Faust
The Verbena Tradition
“You seek for knowledge and wisdom, as I once did; and I ardently hope that the gratification of your wishes may not be a serpent to sting you, as mine has been. ”
You know who doesn't have emotionally crippling experiences when exposed to the horrors of true magic? Plants. A person who replaces their heart with a seed can channel magic through themselves like water goes through roots. Sometimes this is a deliberate process, and other times it is the providence of an evil seed taking control of someone in their sleep. Regardless, once a person's blood runs with sap they are forever more a witch.
Verbena do not dream. Their sweat smells like flowering trees. And they become plantish in their demeanor.
The Verbena Witch has an Astral power source and a Ritual power schedule.

- Verbena Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Coil of Thorns -
- Bitter Fruit (Basic Coil of Thorns)
- Grass Rope (Basic Coil of Thorns)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Aura Perception (Basic Auspex)
- Rising Mists (Basic Chasing the Storm)
- Enchanted Slumber (Basic Veil of Morpheus)
- Dark Night of the Soul (Basic Trail of Tears)
  - Advanced Disciplines -
- Puppetry (Advanced Coil of Thorns)
- Telepathy (Advanced Auspex)

Story Inspiration: The Craft, Kotetsu, Poison Ivy
The Khaibit Tradition
“There are far worse things awaiting man than death.”
Fear of darkness and death leads men to do strange things. Perhaps the strangest of them is to murder one's self and then use sorcery or advanced medical techniques to make one's foray into the land of the dead a temporary. This does not inherently prevent a person from dying in the future, indeed quite the opposite. Many who gain the intimate secrets of death in this manner are chased by the shadow of doom for the remainder of their existence.
The Khaibit Witch has an Orphic power source and a Ritual power schedule.

- Khaibit Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Necromancy -
- Summon Spirit (Basic Necromancy)
- Compel Spirits (Basic Necromancy)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Aura Perception (Basic Auspex)
- Eyes of Night (Basic Obtenebration)
- Tongue of the Serpent (Basic Lure of Shadows)
- Thaumaturgical Forensics (Basic Path of Blood)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Solid Darkness (Advanced Obtenebration)
- Reanimate (Advanced Necromancy)

Story Inspiration: Reanimator, Flatliners, Jason and the Argonauts

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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:13 am

Thanks Frank, I hope it helps.
It sort of just gelled as I started writing it, being slightly high also helped, I need to write every time that I am so, I form my best ideas when I'm like that. I've been thinking of this type of idea for a campaign for a long time. Something where everything previously done all comes together at the end. The real seed was "the patron wants to perform a ritual, the PCs are his unwitting agents in procuring the materials."
I haven't written a campaign ever, because, well, most campaigns that I've seen are pretty boring. It's heroes vs whatever, with no really interesting plots or chances for recurring social interactions, and I've never been satisfied with the ideas that I've come up with. I've always been better at establishing organizations, interactions between groups, and doing the mapping parts of a campaign.
Also, I'd reccomend for a GM running the above campaign, to have each Player create at least three characters, all of different types. Ideally with the group creating 1 character of each type of character that can exist in the game. The Players get to take back their own characters, or pick out any of the existing ones. The GM gets all the rest to modify, or use as NPCs. Hopefully this will greatly ease the burden of NPC creation on the GM.
Also, the Witches look really good. I'll probably never play one, but you cover nearly all of them with those three.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:59 am

So Bigby Wolf's starting character sheet is going to look something like:
Bigby Wolf claims to be the son of a she-wolf and the North Wind, and to have lived for centuries. He currently acts as a sheriff for the New York Camarilla. If he truly is the Big Bad Wolf of legend, that would explain his extreme enmity with the Sabbat, who claim that the Wolf's actions in Europe were in flagrant violation of the Masquerade and led to some of the Luminary blood shed in the Inquisition.
Bigby has become close friends with a Returned European princess, who has a number of close connections with his Sabbat enemies. Whether his yet hidden romantic intentions will turn this into some sort of monstrous 'Romeo and Juliette' is yet to be seen.
Attributes
Agility: 2
Strength: 5
Intuition: 4
Logic: 1
Charisma: 1
Willpower: 3
Special Attributes
Edge: 2
Power: 10
Potency: 1
Powers
Beast Form (Basic Animalism)
Feral Whispers (Basic Animalism)
Quickness (Basic Celerity)
Breath of the Tempest (Basic Chasing the Storm)
Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
Vigor (Basic Potence)
Feat of Strength (Basic Potence)
Dread Gaze (Basic Presence)
The Beckoning (Advanced Animalism)
War Form (Celerity / Potence Devotion)
Giant (Advanced Potence)
...I'm not entirely sure what the relationship between Strength and Feat of Strength is. I assume that the second adds some flat bonus to the first.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ganbare Gincun
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Post by Ganbare Gincun » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:14 am

So what's the mechanic to buy up your powers? I assume Devotions cost more then regular Powers?
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:22 am

> Ganbare Gincun wrote:So what's the mechanic to buy up your powers? I assume Devotions cost more then regular Powers?

I think you just need to already have regular powers of the appropriate type.
On an unrelated note, it occurs to me that flight is an iconic power of the Dark Reflection (faeries, bat-vampires, insect/swarms, diabolists) rather than Chasing Storms (gillmen). Weird.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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