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## Considering 5E

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tzor
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### Considering 5E

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Post by tzor » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:23 pm

Yes you read the title right. There are a lot of discussions about the next generation of D&D; probably too many. One could ague that traditionally the versions of D&D have progressed in an organic manner; OD&D to AD&D to 2nd Edition, to 3E, with each version having some minor feature changed. But if you look at 1E (original AD&D) to 3E you can see some major radical changes in the game design. Some features that people just assumed were a part of D&D in 1E aren’t in 3E at all.
Under this assumption that there can be radical changes to a game over time, what features could be present in 5E which might be radically different from what we have in 3E? I’ve got a couple of ideas as to how the game might evolve and I would like to speculate wildly on a few of them.
The death of the attribute score.
The importance of randomness in 1E character generation cannot be overstated. Both the sacred traditional system of rolling attributes (3d6) and the nice system of (top 3 of 4d6) both have in them the essential element of random fate. The range of 3-18 was a solid near universal limit and everything above 18 was the realm of magic, monsters and the gods. In the generally house-ruled system your attribute was often your target for a number of rolls. (This is important because if you could increase your score by one point you still had an advantage even if you didn’t really get an accompanying increase in either to hit or damage etc.) The number of times you could be resurrected was specifically linked to your initial constitution score.
By the time you get to 3E the actual attribute score isn’t really used for anything. It is the attribute modifier that is used. Attributes are more often created by point buy, so even the random nature of the number is mostly lost and forgotten. Having attributes over 18 are common as is the ability to increase attributes over time.
My thought is by the time you get to 5E, the attribute will no longer exist. Only the modifier is needed and only the modifier will be recorded on the sheet. Attribute modifiers can be assigned by a standard point system which can then use adjustments based on plus and minus one instead of the plus and minus two as is required for 3E raw attributes.
The only problem is the question of the 3E attribute of 0 or in 5E the attribute modifier of -5. In 3E 0 is a very important number. In terms of constitution, you’re dead. In terms of other attributes you have a really significant problem. Assigning these attributes to 0 seems reasonable, while assigning them to -5 seems arbitrary. On the other hand, just as 2E broke the high ceiling of 3d6 without the system collapsing, perhaps 5E could break the 0 barrier without the system collapsing.
The death of the hit die
Randomness in abilities in attributes seems to be a non desirable trait in later editions. Actually it was a pretty non desirable trait in early editions as well where many people house rulled that PCS got max hit points at level 1. Having a fighter with less HP than the party wizard at level 1 is no fun.
In 1E different classes got different types of hit dice. (According to vague ramblings the mythical never written G2E – Gary’s idea for the next edition – would have had monster HD vary with overall size type.) This notion continued through the various editions, although true variable multiclassing really only developed from 3E so mixing HD types was not common for most characters. (In addition the 1E monk started out with 2d4)
My idea would be to drop the notion of HD completely. Instead of having a random increase in HP each level, one would get a fixed increase, modified by a number of factors including constitution, class and size. The average of any given die is ½ of the max number plus ½ which we can round up or down at our leisure for purposes of analysis. Let’s round up for now and assume the base HD is the d8.
Under my vague proposed system, everyone would get 5 HP per level, subject to adjustments. Classes which would use a d6 for HD would get a -1 as an adjustment. Classes which would use a d4 for HD would get a -2 as an adjustment. You cannot get more than a -4 adjustment for any given level. (Thus you always get at least 1 HP per level increase.) Since the HP per level is fixed the calculation for max HP would be as follows: [max(-4,sum of modifiers) * 5] Removing HD modifiers from class would mean one could then multiply this number by HD, but if one retained HD modifiers on a class basis then one would have to sum the HP per levels.
With the dice removed from HD we need to look at the two types of HD one can have. HD can be given because of race (racial HD) and because of class. Without the notion of “die” in the term we could easily reduce this to “racial levels” and “class levels.” This might radically reorganize a number of confusing terms in 3E and force people to once again pretend to address the “balance issue.” (That issue isn’t going to be solved until 9E, although I’m sounding like the Harry Seldon of D&D now.)
So what do you think? No attributes? No Hit Dice? I mean you were think I was taking away save vs. wand or racial class limits or having a natural 20 appear five times on the to hit table. Say it isn’t so man!
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Ecureuil_Diabolique
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### Re: Considering 5E

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Post by Ecureuil_Diabolique » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:50 pm

I've only played D&D since 3E, so I don't know how things have really progressed.
I like the idea of no HD though, the only way a wizard should have more HP than the fighter is if the wizard really worked towards it.
Then again, maybe the fighter won't suck in 5E, although it doesn't look promising.
Although at the rate that WotC is going, I'm not sure whether a 5E will ever exist. I'm generally content with mediocre material, but some of the tings they're doing/coming out with is just making me want to play a Tome game even more. It's just a matter of convincing my group to try it out.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: Considering 5E

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Post by RandomCasualty » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:11 pm

I suspect that the ToB warblade will replace the conventional fighter.
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JonSetanta
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### Re: Considering 5E

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Post by JonSetanta » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:18 am

Yeah but I don't even like levels. Can we do without that too?

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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: Considering 5E

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:21 pm

> Ecureuil_Diabolique at [unixtime wrote:1187016647[/unixtime]]
> Although at the rate that WotC is going, I'm not sure whether a 5E will ever exist. I'm generally content with mediocre material, but some of the tings they're doing/coming out with is just making me want to play a Tome game even more. It's just a matter of convincing my group to try it out.

I'd reccomend simply running a game/campaign. That's what my group has done and it works.
People have to use Tome material; use monsters of the appropriate CR. It'll be fine.
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erik
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### Re: Considering 5E

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Post by erik » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:58 am

Death of Attribute Scores and Death of Hit Die were big features to me regarding True20 system (basically d20 with many, many, many of the homebrews that I already liked).
So if you're looking for a 5e like that, you might want to consider True20.
(it still has levels though)
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