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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:10 pm

> Voss at [unixtime wrote:1194552404[/unixtime]]
> @random- CR is totally gone, as a game term. Monsters are described in terms of level as far as I know. This preview card for the spined Devil is a good example- top card is 4E, bottom is the 3.x card.
> http://www.enworld.org/images/4e/monstestat.jpg
> Note the Level 6 skirmisher in the upper right.
> Oh... and the stat block has a lot of discussion around it. Its probably the stat bonus + 1/2 level (for skills), but some are suggesting more bizarre ideas.

[somehow this post ended up in an other thread and I only noticed that today]
Oh, sweet.
They're going to change what they call Outsiders to Immortals now. I want to finish my Immortal Champion and Immortal Theurge races/classes now.
I can't claim that they stole that idea from me, can I?
Fvcking edisons of the coast.
Edit: I noticed its saves... lvl 6 with 18's across the board? wtf?
Also 20 Fire Resistance and somehow 6 Immortal HD, and a +7 Str modifier = +9 to hit with 2 claws?
I'm guessing that's with a 6 + 7 = 13 -4 for 2 natural attacks?
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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:13 pm

The bit about trying to balance 2 or 3 things, when there's only one thing that needs balancing; number of rounds a character can stand up in a fight.
Bleach,
Voss pretty much explained why even a 'Desert' nation doesn't work.
It only works if they're all nomads or the remains of a broken empire.
Neither of which is mentioned.
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While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
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Username17
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Username17 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:18 pm

Saves are like AC. The wizard rolls against your Willpower. so actually having 18s across the board means that you suck and suck hard. The Wizard casts a spell against you and adds his Int Bonus (+5? +6? More?) and his level (+6) and then you get your ass plastered to the far wall on a 5+ and you don't even get to roll a save.
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Voss
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Voss » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:19 pm

The bonuses in the stat boxes are probably the skill bonuses. And probably stat bonus + 1/2 level, in the same way as Saga. Notice that the damage is still +4, matching the current bonus for STR 19.
It isn't 6 HD. Hit dice are gone. Its a 6th level skirmisher, who happens to to have an Immortal type.
Saves: saves are static defenses that you roll against now. And probably like saga, so 10+ level + stat bonus (which again matches the old value for stat modifiers). (10+6+2), since it happens to have a 14 or 15 in all save related stats. Not sure what makes AC different. Maybe natural armor?
Not sure how the hit bonus is worked out either. Both melee and ranged are +9, but any other bonuses and penalties are hidden
Interesting that the ranged attack is compared to the reflex save, however, and not AC.
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Crissa
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Crissa » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:24 pm

One Cleric can make enough water for about a dozen people and crops; generally that's all you need in a desert area.
And just because it is 'desert' doesn't mean there aren't rivers, springs, or farmland - it means there's no rain... And probably to Mearls, it's any hot and dry place, not especially unlivable.
Also, many settlements were supported in the 'desert' because they had trade. Not sure how that works in D&D, but caravans supported huge cities at the time.
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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:42 am

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1196201902[/unixtime]]Saves are like AC. The wizard rolls against your Willpower. so actually having 18s across the board means that you suck and suck hard. The Wizard casts a spell against you and adds his Int Bonus (+5? +6? More?) and his level (+6) and then you get your ass plastered to the far wall on a 5+ and you don't even get to roll a save.
> -Username17

Ouch. I must have completely missed that in any talk regarding 4E.
Voss, I guess the ranged attack is considered a 'spell'.
Crissa, but even the smallest trade outpost had to have an spring of some kind.
Not really the building blocks of an empire.
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tzor
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by tzor » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:53 am

Well let's do the numbers:
Effect: Up to 2 gallons of water/level
Compare with the following:
Abstract : Water balance studies and chloride excretions were conducted on 52 subjects; 37 men from a light-tank company during maneuvers, 10 medium-tank crewmen during instructional periods and 4 members of the laboratory staff. All liquid intake and urinary output was measured and recorded - evaporative water loss determined by weighting. For the period of the study a drinking water ration of 2 gallons per day was required by the majority of men. One gallon per day even under mild temperature conditions was inadequate and caused lowering of efficiency. All tank crew members required about the same amount of water. Water requirements greater than those noted are encountered at higher temperatures and with greater activity. Salt balance was maintained in all subjects without extra salt. Conditions were not severe, however, and the men were well acclimatized. Salt tablets were unsatisfactory in a sufficient number of instances to make advisable other means of increasing salt intake. No advantage in physical well-being or economy of water was gained by limiting water drinking to meal time only.
One cleric can create enough water for his level * 0 level slots per day but this doesn't count crops. I'm going to make a rough guess and suggest that there is no way clerics could even sustain enough water to grow crops to feed themselves because the water requirements is so significantly higher!
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angelfromanotherpin
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:09 am

Okay, all 'desert' means is 'low rainfall' and 'little surface vegetation.' So you really can have a desert with enormous aquifers and abundant potatoes. That's before you get to weird fantasy stuff where the soil itself is both edible and hydrating or spontaneously generates capybera for no good reason except allowing more people to live there.
At the same time, I'm pretty sure the WOTC writers were actually thinking of Lawrence of Arabia-style dune seas or the Empty Quarter; but we already knew they were retarded, so what they meant can be safely discarded without examination, and we can move on to coming up with cool ways that what they said can work, or ignoring the baseline stupid concept of racially preferred terrain, since people live wherever they possibly can anyway.
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Crissa
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Crissa » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:01 am

But the level * persons is only for additional water they can make on the fly. Once they're level 4, they have more spell slots, and can make not only more per each slot - they can make an everflowing font or everburning torch.
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Leress
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Leress » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:14 am

What about just using decanters of endless water?

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

]

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Voss
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Voss » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:01 am

At that point you can irrigate the crap out of the area and you aren't living in a desert anymore.
tzor- sounds right, and its even worse for animals. From personal experience I'd say cattle consume about 15-20 gallons of water each during the summer in a temperate zone.
A cleric could burn higher level slots to create water, but really, a first level cleric is going to burn all his spells to create 10 gallons of water a day, if he has a wisdom modifier. Thats 5 people or maybe half a cow. Thats crap for a settlement of any size. Any enormous underground aquifer is going to drain pretty quick with little to no input and lots of output.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by RandomCasualty » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:06 am

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1196189305[/unixtime]]Action Points can suck my balls. They weren't good in Eberron. They weren't good in D20 Modern. They won't be good in 4e. It's a shit idea.

I don't know why you think the concept as a whole is shit. Sure APs are poorly implemented, but having a resource that only comes to you when you level is actually a good thing. It's about the only resource management that actually works outside the time frame of one encounter.

> Seriously, did you notice that the ability where you don't suffer drawbacks from being surprised is just plain better than the abilty where you can spend an Action Point to act during the surprise round? Hell, even if you spend that action point, they still get combat advantage on you if you tank your initiative roll. And you don't even get a pathetically small bonus to Perception checks out of the deal.

No, getting to act in a surprise round is actually better than not giving enemies combat advantage. Combat advantage is just a defensive penalty, but you're still effectively sitting there while shit pounds on. You're spending an AP to get an extra action, and that's one of the most valuable things you can get in the game. Now, what I don't like about it is that it's so limited use. It only works when there's a surprise round, which sucks, especially since you're paying to use it.
I don't think any ability should be solely Action point activated. The AP benefits should be something extra on top of a base benefit of the feat or class ability.
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Crissa
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Crissa » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:16 pm

Why would a first level anything be responsible for more than a turnip field?
Also, irrigation != rainfall.
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tzor
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by tzor » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:20 pm

> angelfromanotherpin at [unixtime wrote:1196212192[/unixtime]]Okay, all 'desert' means is 'low rainfall' and 'little surface vegetation.'

Well yea, but that's nit picking. Technially both the artic and the anartic are deserts. There is a lot of water there (as ice and packed snow) but it is becasue it has accumulated over the years. People always assume hot acres of sand when they normally talk about desert.
Irrigation of deserts have problems because most water is not pure, the water is used or evaporates and the impurities remain and collect in the soil. Magical and extra planar water might be a logical exception to this problem.
First of all I have no idea what the writers were thinking. The idea of a massive underground aquifer that people just don't talk to outsiders about would be a simple but effective Dune ripoff and if you use a less nasty world than dune you might easily get away with it.
But then you have the oasis in the desert model even if that oasis is an underground cavern that only the locals know about.
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Maxus
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Maxus » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:00 pm

You *do* get some aquifers out in rocky deserts. Really, if you're going to have a desert culture, rocky is the kind to do it in. You assume that there is stuff that grows out there (because there bloody well is), and it's possible to get the occasional stream or oasis. And they can build a city along a river or, if they're feeling particularly creative, carve out a canyon.
If I were making a desert setting, it'd also have unusual materials harvesting from the plants/rocks. Like outsiders laugh at them for using wooden weapons, until they see the kind of wood that grows out there.
Even sandy deserts have water tables (if you go deep enough) and oasis and patches of growth, so as long as you don't mind keeping on the move and knowing exactly where several sources of water and food and you make a loop through them, you can have nomads can live out there, along with Gargantuan sentient CE devil-snakes.
An empire, though, would probably have to be based around a river or river system that made planned agriculture possible (aka, the Nile). Or, as someone said earlier, some copious aquifers.
The geology and climate's not exceptionally interfering, so the idea of people living in a desert is workable.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
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Voss
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Voss » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:43 pm

Living in a desert, yes. Empire building in the desert... as you say, thats something else.
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Fwib
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Fwib » Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:56 pm

So empires in the desert are unlikely, but empires in the planes of fire and flying cities are just fine?
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Voss
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Voss » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:06 pm

Yep.
Seriously. One is passable fantasy (though I wouldn't personally do either), the other is poor background, poor research and shrugging it off as 'a wizard did it'.
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angelfromanotherpin
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:32 pm

> Voss at [unixtime wrote:1196276809[/unixtime]]One is passable fantasy (though I wouldn't personally do either), the other is poor background, poor research and shrugging it off as 'a wizard did it'.

That's a good point man, I mean, Mongolia isn't a desert, and had no associated empire.
Wait...
Wait...
Wait, I'm wrong. In fact, nomadic horsemen from a region with an average rainfall well within desert classification conquered roughly a quarter of the Earth's land surface area. For extra credit, guess how much of what they conquered was also desert.
edited for clarity
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Voss
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Voss » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:12 pm

Most of their conquests were not in the desert. The desert was the space between the areas that mattered, so they might as well call it theirs. They also spent a lot of time in the less shitty areas they conquered, and often said 'Fuck Mongolia'.
And now for something completely different- Races and Classes, part II: Classes.
a few notes. Not all of these will be in the first PH, and are just design notes. I also edited out some of the OPs personal opinions, to avoid confusion, (and because his english isn't great)-
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t ... e][br]Here again I start with a disclaimer. The book present the state of the art as of Aug 2007. There could be changes.
Unified progression of defense, BAB and saves. A 10th level character will have +5 of those (thus +0.5 / level). Even at 1st level classes can significantly alter the base value. Class abilities modify them further.
Cleric
All classes will get some self-healing power (already known). Cleric enhance the self-healing capabilities of nearby allies.
Bigger spell will be rituals (raise the dead for example). Rituals are different from spells (as of how I do not know).
Summoning spells are removed along with alignment specific ones (at least for now).
Fighter
You chose to fight with a two-handed weapon or a weapon+shield. Other abilities build on this choice.
Powers can be divided into assault, defense and control. Assault is best suited to two-handed weapons, and ephasize offense and damage. Defense is about higher AC and such things. Control hinder and constrain the enemy (IMHO trip for example).
Some stunts are better if carried out with a specific weapon. Hammer are perfect for stunning opponents, while great swords for cleave.
The role as a defender admittedly means that you are to defend the wizard and allow the thief to flank. {not sure if this is the guy's opinion or actually in the book}
A fighter feat allows Dex to be added to AC even when wearing heavy armor.
Fighters can keep monsters focused on them, by having bonuses on opportunity attacks and by following enemies. They guard allies by "battlefield control".
An example of at will power is the defensive strike. If you hit, you get bonus to AC against this foe.
Per encounter: dance of steel (just the name is given)
Per day: great surge which is a powerful attack combined with some healing of yourself.
These classes are mentioned in 3-4 paragraphs, it is not a confirmation that they are going to be in the PHB, just that they were experimenting with them (for some, like the paladin, warlord and the ranger, we know that they are going to be in the PHB).
Paladin: Still have smite ability but there are more types of smites (different form of attacks). Paladins and fighters are both defenders, but paladins rely on divine powers. There are evil paladins.
Ranger: Nothing more that we already know. Some scoutish abilities focus on movement, good with a bow.
Sorcerer: Make it more distant from the wizard. They barely control their spells, but unleash enough energy every time that some remains around them. For example after a fireball, they are cloaked in fire which sears enemies nearby.
Swordmage: An arcane defender with magic shields and armor, flaming sword and some self-buff abilities.
Warlord: A martial leader, with the ability to buff and control over battlefield positioning.
Barbarian: The ability to rage is the centerpiece ability of this class. There are different rages. There is a mention of a “lightning panther strike” that allow movement and multiple attack. Barbarians are more feral, and bite attack was mentioned
Druid: Their spellcasting takes second seat. The primary ability is wildshape, which they can do a lot more often, but only shapes they have picked (like spells). They have some nature related spells to cast when in humanoid form.
Bard: Gets it power from otherworldly patrons (?). Its powers focuses on illusions and confusions, so that enemies hinder themselves. They can also inspire their allies.
Monk: Still in the design stage, but it will be a mobile striker.
Psi will appear sometime and it will be a different power source. They design arcane and divine magic so that psi can fit in. Power over mind will be the main (or a flagship) feature of psi, thus charms are going to be nerfed (the avoid too much overlap).[/quote]
So. Anyone want to start on unified BAB? And potentially consequences of stacking 'alterations to the base value', if thats possible?
warhammer vs. greatsword. possible stun lock, or possible cleave. Hmmm.
Sorry enchanters, psions killed you and took your stuff...
I like rituals as a concept. Implementation will be... interesting.
No summoning for clerics?
No mention of the wizard, which makes me sad.
Druids as shapeshifters. Good that they're getting toned down, bad that they're...uh, not even vaguely recognizable as historic/mythological druids. Just animal guys running around in the woods. Yay.
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tzor
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by tzor » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:38 pm

> Fwib at [unixtime wrote:1196276195[/unixtime]]So empires in the desert are unlikely, but empires in the planes of fire and flying cities are just fine?

Empires in the planes (isn't that on the planes) of fire isn't really all that fine. You can build great city states in (or on) the plane of fire. Together they can form an empire I suppose but really they are just isolated points of light in an othewise hot place.
The same is true for a flying city, it's sort of like an oasis in the air. Not quite an empire.
Also with Mongolia as would be the case with a air based empire of any other type of roaming force it's not that they have a "large" empire but a movable one and wherever they are, there is their empire.
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angelfromanotherpin
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:56 pm

> Voss wrote:Most of their conquests were not in the desert. The desert was the space between the areas that mattered, so they might as well call it theirs. They also spent a lot of time in the less shitty areas they conquered, and often said 'Fuck Mongolia'.

Umm... so what? It was a society that came out of a desert and claimed an enormous empire that contained a lot of desert. It was also an empire which actually existed in the real world, so your assertion that any desert-based empire is "poor background, poor research, and shrugging it off as 'a wizard did it'" is horseshit, plain and simple. The only poor research is yours, because the Mongol Invasions aren't exactly obscure history.
Of course, the Mongols aren't the only desert-based empire in history, and they're certainly not the most iconic. Remember Egypt? That there's a big river running through the country doesn't change the fact that most of it gets less than 5mm of rain a year, and even the coast gets 170mm at most. I seem to recall that they had some kind of an empire that dominated the region for a few years. A few thousand years.
Of course, that's before we even come to the actual definition of the term empire, which doesn't require anything approaching the ultimate scale of the Khanate.
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Catharz
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Catharz » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:05 pm

Voss, that's great! If that article is actually accurate, there is hope yet for 4e!
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angelfromanotherpin
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:08 pm

> tzor wrote:Empires in the planes (isn't that on the planes) of fire isn't really all that fine. You can build great city states in (or on) the plane of fire. Together they can form an empire I suppose but really they are just isolated points of light in an othewise hot place.

Dude, isolated points of population surrounded by comparatively vast uninhabited wilderness is all any civilization, even modern ones, has ever been.

> Also with Mongolia as would be the case with a air based empire of any other type of roaming force it's not that they have a "large" empire but a movable one and wherever they are, there is their empire.

Okay, here's where your position is so laughable that I am tempted to just make fun of you. Read a book! The Mongol Empire was what we'd recognize as a fully-realized civilization, with long-term allegiances, a written code of law, stable trade routes, and a postal system.
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Voss
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### Re: 4E information

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Post by Voss » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:11 pm

Exactly. They came *out* of the desert. And conquered non-desert lands. And yes, there were deserts within the borders of the lands they claimed. But that wasn't, largely, where they hung out.
As for Egypt, that damn big river and the arable land around it is their infrastructure and population base. Not the desert, that was essentially empty wasteland.
Its very different from

> Dragonborn to deserts (at least their great empire were in desert)

in which the actual Empire is/was in the desert. Its a lot different to wandering into China with a horde at your back and setting up shop.
But, whatever. Fanwank WotC's poor flavor decisions all you want.
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