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## Twilight: You've gotta be kidding me.

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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:39 pm

Interesting story. First girl that I ever decided to court that read romance novels a lot? Hugely submissive. Not my usual thing, but nice. Pretty sure the only reason she didn't get completely turned off of me is the fact that I'm a total Dom.
Thank you romance novels. You've set back equal rights more than any woman will know.
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Surgo
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Post by Surgo » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:02 am

Just because a girl gets turned on by being on the sub part of BDSM doesn't mean they're going to quit working and stop voting.
http://www.dnd-wiki.org -- the wiki
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:26 am

> Surgo wrote:Just because a girl gets turned on by being on the sub part of BDSM doesn't mean they're going to quit working and stop voting.

True, but it does mean they aren't going to stand up for themselves as much and thus be much more likely to suffer abuse. Perhaps gender equality is a better term to use?
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:14 am

> ubernoob wrote:True, but it does mean they aren't going to stand up for themselves as much and thus be much more likely to suffer abuse.

I would really like to see some sort of authoritative source for this. Nothing I have seen would support this at all.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:15 am

I'm heavily distracted today. Forgive my tangents.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:15 am

> Maj wrote:I would really like to see some sort of authoritative source for this. Nothing I have seen would support this at all.

It is when the sub attractiveness is used as a baseline excuse that a authoritarian, paternalistic society is 'correct.'
In that way, it does loads of harm and leads to much self-abuse.
See previously quoted survey pointing out use of anti-depressants and mormonism. It also matches with evangelical dominionism as well.
-Crissa
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tzor
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Post by tzor » Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:15 pm

> Crissa wrote:It is when the sub attractiveness is used as a baseline excuse that a authoritarian, paternalistic society is 'correct.'

I still can not see what this has to do with romance novels. There are tons of stuff out there flooding us every day with manure about the inferiority of so called "sub attractiveness." It floods the airwaves and the print media and not even "Ugly Betty" (who really isn't ugly, just slightly odd) can't prevent the tidal wave of negative influences.
I see the general attacks on Romance Novels in the same manner I see the general attacks on Role Playing. Antedoctal horse manure, no more and no less.
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Cynic
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Post by Cynic » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:12 pm

> tzor wrote:

> > Crissa wrote:It is when the sub attractiveness is used as a baseline excuse that a authoritarian, paternalistic society is 'correct.'

> I still can not see what this has to do with romance novels. There are tons of stuff out there flooding us every day with manure about the inferiority of so called "sub attractiveness." It floods the airwaves and the print media and not even "Ugly Betty" (who really isn't ugly, just slightly odd) can't prevent the tidal wave of negative influences.
> I see the general attacks on Romance Novels in the same manner I see the general attacks on Role Playing. Antedoctal horse manure, no more and no less.

I agree with you on this point. Romance novels are viewed by me as tripe and that's just because of reading crazy amounts of htem for two weeks. It's a biased opinion rather than an authoritative hands-down fact. But that really doesn't make the reader any more submissive. It's a rather hard pick to say that just because someone reads Romances, they shall be submissive.
We go through these sort of arguments every day in the media. You play video games, you must be a killer (hyperbole).
You role play, you must be a Satanist (only true for oWOD.)
You spend your career in a sport from teh age of 5, then you must at some point have taken a performance-enhancer. This is a stretch but meh.
~
Bigode - having no money and wanting to provide for a family will make you do insane things. I never got around to the romance, even though I still should have my old kneepad with ideas around here in storage somewhere. I was hired into the "fabulous" Auto Insurance industry pretty much two weeks after I finished reading the stuff.
~

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

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Bigode
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Post by Bigode » Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:21 pm

> A_Cynic wrote:Bigode - having no money and wanting to provide for a family will make you do insane things. I never got around to the romance, even though I still should have my old kneepad with ideas around here in storage somewhere. I was hired into the "fabulous" Auto Insurance industry pretty much two weeks after I finished reading the stuff.

Makes sense. Though I guess insurance > Twilight, and the latter seems to be like the shining (sparkling) star of the genre ...

> Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.

> Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)

> brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!

> LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.

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Maj
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Post by Maj » Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:15 am

Crissa, I have absolutely no idea what your post was supposed to mean. Please clarify?
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:56 pm

> tzor wrote:

> > Crissa wrote:It is when the sub attractiveness is used as a baseline excuse that a authoritarian, paternalistic society is 'correct.'

> I still can not see what this has to do with romance novels.

It's not about romance novels. It's about the contextual society in which the romance novels exist.
One source won't change someone with a strong sense of self. However, a marked number will choose the wrong solution if they observe someone else choosing that solution and calling it correct. Even if the second person is sure it's wrong, going against other people is harder to them than blurting out what they observe to be true. (There's a study, which I cannot seem to find right now, about the rate of incorrect answers about number of dots on a card varying by whether or not the first person in a study group answered correctly or not, or whether the majority answered correctly or not.)
So, while novels individually aren't a problem - showing people other people apparently being happy at some choice makes people more likely to choose that. If they believe it is 'normal' to be happy as a sub, they will attempt to be happy as a sub, even if they aren't happy that way. Novels can be used to enforce such a worldview. So can porn, the friends you have, your school, what presents you received as a child, etc.
-Crissa
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fbmf
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Post by fbmf » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:55 am

I have nothing to add to this thread except to confirm the rumor that Ramnza and I live in the DFW area. Just south of the airport, actually.
Also, Ramnza is a fan of the series so i imagine she will make it into this thread when it is her turn to moderate.
FTR, she is neither Goth, chunky, nor Wiccan.
Game On,
fbmf
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tzor
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Post by tzor » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:18 am

> Crissa wrote:It's not about romance novels. It's about the contextual society in which the romance novels exist.

OK I will buy that. I'm still going to quibble on the notion of sub-attractiveness and its relation to the Romance Novel, but clearly in society "beauty" is everything. On the other hand there is also the impression that "beauty" is "stupid" and that "beauty" (not sub-attrictiveness) is submissive.
But perhaps we are narrowing this complex subject down to the point of making it trite. There are several factors at play here, a common desire to escape responsibility by hoping for someone else to solve problems that one should solve themselves. The almost addictive and destructive alure of self guilt that constantly puts one self down over others who really deserve themselves to be put down.
A good romance novel (the ones that last the ages) shows you that veneer of falsehood but then reveals the veneer for what it is; the "hero" is shallow and the "heroine" has to take charge of her own destiny.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:35 am

> tzor wrote:A good romance novel (the ones that last the ages) shows you that veneer of falsehood but then reveals the veneer for what it is; the "hero" is shallow and the "heroine" has to take charge of her own destiny.

Pretty much!
There are examples in the US of very scary people, though, who believe that women must submit in order to be happy - and as long as some women are not submitting, all women cannot be happy.
That's why all the Prozac in Utah, anyhow.
-Crissa
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:46 am

> Crissa wrote:
> So, while novels individually aren't a problem - showing people other people apparently being happy at some choice makes people more likely to choose that. If they believe it is 'normal' to be happy as a sub, they will attempt to be happy as a sub, even if they aren't happy that way. Novels can be used to enforce such a worldview. So can porn, the friends you have, your school, what presents you received as a child, etc.
> -Crissa

That's pretty insightful. In the past, I've put up with a lot of abuse because I thought it was "normal". Glad I eventually figured it out , I'd probably would have hanged myself by now if I hadn't.
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:22 am

I have to admit, it's not my insight. But I try to willing share what I know with others.
Many people have - maybe everyone, though I know I and others like Frank try not - have a normality they try to enforce upon others. They do things from the small - getting gender appropriate gifts - to the large - changing laws and studies to back up their beliefs. They become irate when you break or contradict their worldview, to the point of deadly force.
-Crissa
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tzor
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Post by tzor » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:40 am

First of all, I need to make one thing perfectly clear; there are a lot of very weird people out there. Second, I need to make this equally clear; the existence of very weird people does not in any way shape or form have a direct correlation with not so very weird people, some of whom might be mildly odd. Third, I would like to point out that the inverse does on occasion happen.
For example, there are cases where in sexual relationships men are actually abused by women. These men follow all the classical pattern of abuse, being submissive, falsely taking the guilt and blame for the other partner on themselves and so on. It is rare, but it does happen. And not all societies have the “submissive” woman. I can think of an obvious community off hand, the general African American community where the woman is often dominant in a relationship.
But the inverse is also true, how we perceive problems can also come from our own world bias. Let’s take poor Barbie as an example. Most people will say she is a bad role model because of “unrealistic” breasts. But I was looking at a web site the other day which argued the exact opposite. When comparing her measurements to the typical female recruit to the military, if you scale her to a 5’ 11” woman her breast size is ironically normal … it’s her waist that is so tiny that it is borderline anorexic. If you scale her to 5’ 4” then she is clinically and dangerously anorexic. Here everyone is worried about the dolls leading to breast implants while it may actually be leading to eating disorders.
But romance novels aren’t the “entry drug” for women. The general novel entry point is the “Chick Lit” novel. Perhaps we are looking too deeply at the problem and not seeing the problem for what it is. People who are busy with so many things in life don’t want something that makes them “think” because they have already done too much of that already. They want something fluff, simple, formulaic, that provides entertainment without requiring deep thoughts in the process. There are a lot of genre’s that provide this type of entertainment and they have been popular for centuries; variations of westerns, detective stories, science fiction, science fantasy, chick lit and romance fall into these categories. Stereotypes are promoted, not in order to promote them, but because it makes it easier to deliver the entertainment without having to think too deeply.
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Bigode
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Post by Bigode » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:59 am

Interestingly enough, I only heard about Barbie's waist, not breasts. AFAIR (which doesn't count for much, to be honest), her breasts would only actually count as too big for an anorexic indeed. Also: science fiction doesn't require a lot of thought? WTF? In case of doubt, sci-fi doesn't include the Star Wars movies (nor any EU item of my knowledge, but who knows).

> Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.

> Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)

> brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!

> LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.

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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:07 am

The fairyland perfection of submission by Amanda Marcotte
-Crissa
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tzor
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Post by tzor » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:09 am

I should also point out that in my day (that's the late 60's and 70's) G.I. Joe was scaled to Barbie's size. Back then he had that ball bearing waist to allow for greater flexibility. If you want to look at a bad model of the human body it had to be Joe.
Yes Ken was always jealous, but at least he could wear a bathing suit without looking like some strange freak.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:37 am

> Crissa wrote:The fairyland perfection of submission by Amanda Marcotte

Somewhere in this discussion, the concept of submitting while in bed became equated with the notion of submitting while not in bed.
Most of the romance novels I've read, while extraordinarily mind-numbing and stereotypical, don't promote a vacant-headed, weak-willed, totally dependent woman. The female lead is usually smart, charismatic, bold, capable, and possesses a lot of initiative and drive... But just happens to enjoy being submissive in bed with her one and only.
I'm not sure how that - in any way - leads to the derangedly nostalgic woman who yearns to have a man constantly tell her how to exist.
Last edited by Maj on Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:53 am

> Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:

> > Crissa wrote:
> > So, while novels individually aren't a problem - showing people other people apparently being happy at some choice makes people more likely to choose that. If they believe it is 'normal' to be happy as a sub, they will attempt to be happy as a sub, even if they aren't happy that way. Novels can be used to enforce such a worldview. So can porn, the friends you have, your school, what presents you received as a child, etc.
> > -Crissa

> That's pretty insightful. In the past, I've put up with a lot of abuse because I thought it was "normal". Glad I eventually figured it out , I'd probably would have hanged myself by now if I hadn't.

Holy shit, Crissa and Arioch in agreement. Hell hath truly frozen.
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Neeeek
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Post by Neeeek » Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:58 am

> Maj wrote:
> Somewhere in this discussion, the concept of submitting while in bed became equated with the notion of submitting while not in bed.

Yeah, that's a little strange. Most of the strongest women I know are subs in bed. Wouldn't put up with any crap outside of bed though.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:15 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:

> > Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:

> > > Crissa wrote:
> > > So, while novels individually aren't a problem - showing people other people apparently being happy at some choice makes people more likely to choose that. If they believe it is 'normal' to be happy as a sub, they will attempt to be happy as a sub, even if they aren't happy that way. Novels can be used to enforce such a worldview. So can porn, the friends you have, your school, what presents you received as a child, etc.
> > > -Crissa

> > That's pretty insightful. In the past, I've put up with a lot of abuse because I thought it was "normal". Glad I eventually figured it out , I'd probably would have hanged myself by now if I hadn't.

> Holy shit, Crissa and Arioch in agreement. Hell hath truly frozen.

I don't actually consider Crissa an evil person, just someone who says things that happen to annoy me, and has my ex-wife's debating style (Most of our worse arguments were probably me displacing my frustration at my living situation on someone who argues like who I was stuck with).
Generally, I can be cordial if she's not actually doing those things at the time.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Bigode
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Post by Bigode » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:35 am

Count and Crissa have agreed fairly often these days, actually.
Maj: might well be the case, but the romance subject of this thread seems to be not like that at all - and a major success. Thoughts?

> A comment on Crissa's link wrote:From what I can gather, in the 50s, getting raped was something women just expected would happen to them at some point, and thus they didn’t really report it or do much but just suffer through it.

Does anyone have relevant information?
Another comment that might be interesting:
This meant that my parents’ income was suddenly drastically reduced, even though Dad’s income was the only one that counted when they’d bought their house. It also meant that my mother was stuck home alone all day, in a new suburban house at the top of a hill, on a street with no sidewalks, nearly three miles from the nearest bus stop into the city, let alone the market, the library, or any other women her age. Her sister and all her friends worked, her brothers worked, Dad worked, and thanks to the lack of public transportation Mum didn’t even have a car. She was alone, isolated, and had only daytime TV (which she loathed) and the radio for company.
When she became “nervous” because she was alone all day and completely dependent on Dad for money and transportation (both of which he gladly gave when he wasn’t at work), her doctor gave her tranquilizers so she’d relax. It was only her going into convulsions that kept her from being given similar drugs when she was in labor four months later.
And best of all, and why I’d love to strangle all those “it’s best for the children” morons: not only did my mother nearly die thanks to being medicated instead of being given a car or a job, my adult teeth are unusually weak thanks to prenatal exposure to the tranquilizers. 48 years later *I* am paying the price for the prejudice against working women with a mouth full of crowns and fillings, not to mention all the agonizing memories of a mother who had to live vicariously through me until she finally realized that she’d been sold a bill of goods and returned to work when I was twelve.
Betty Friedan was so very, very right.
LOLs
Last edited by Bigode on Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

> Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.

> Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)

> brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!

> LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.

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