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## Class Feature Items: Yes/No

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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## Do you have any objections to this idea?

Yes, I don't believe that character concepts that require specific items should be supported.
  4
  13%

Yes, I think that everybody should have the ability to get whatever items they want in some way.
  6
  19%

Yes, some other major objection(s) (elaborate below).
  0
  No votes

Yes, multiple major objections (elaborate below).
  0
  No votes

Yes, but only minor ones (elaborate below).
  2
  6%

No.
  13
  41%

I don't know enough to know (ask questions below).
  1
  3%

That depends (elaborate below).
  4
  13%

Other, I done goofed and forgot an important option.
  2
  6%

  Total votes: 32

Your vote has been cast.

RadiantPhoenix
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### Class Feature Items: Yes/No

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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:57 pm

Split off from this thread.

> RadiantPhoenix wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:

> > > RadiantPhoenix wrote: How does having an explicit class feature such as, "Sword of the Soul (Su): A Phantom Exorcist's soul has more than one part. At first level, one of these parts manifests as a weapon. It can take the form of any simple or martial weapon of the character's choice, but once chosen it does not change. This weapon grows in power as the Phantom Exorcist gains levels, as described below..." distract from the narrative?

> > Um. It doesn't. It allows a single-weapon user to maintain his idiom without taking up any screentime with sidequests or whatever.

> Then perhaps we should take this option. Does anyone have any objections?

So, yeah, if you have any objections to the idea of giving some classes (e.g. "Lancer") class features that grant level-appropriate items appropriate to the class idiom, post them here.
If you have objections, make sure to mention how strong you think the objections are, and whether they're to the general concept, or just to some specific details.
I will abstain from voting... for now.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:14 pm

It depends on the game. In a superhero game, I wouldn't have any problem with a class called "Powered Armor Guy". In other genres it might be stupid, though.
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Seerow
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Post by Seerow » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:16 pm

I would say no objections as long as it is considered a minor class feature.
Like if you take a full decent class, and throw on "You also get a level appropriate melee weapon", that's fine. If you try to make it the central piece of the class, or even weigh it as any sort of meaningful bonus, then yes I object to that.
Like if it's a class feature it should be something pervasive that any martially oriented class picks up. Like if it were a spellcaster, having a level appropriate weapon would be the equivalent of a single low level spell. Such an insignificant investment anyone who wanted it could make the investment without trouble.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:20 pm

So, someone says I forgot an option from the poll. What is the option I forgot?
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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:32 pm

This part of the conversation really just comes down to "what roles are you willing to support, as a game designer, a setting designer, or a GM?"
It's really easy to construct cases where giving players what they 'want' actually does interfere with the shared story. If you want to play a steampunk engineer in classic fantasy, you're adding an element/theme that the group has to accept. Similarly, if you're saying samurai in a western-themed fantasy setting, you're dictating some facts about the setting that seem at odds with everything else. Those concessions can be made for you, but it's something the group has to agree to.
But once that discussion is over and the group has agreed to let the character into the game, that character needs to be supported. That's not really debatable. Stealth-nerfing a character for being out of place instead of just telling them flat out "that character idea doesn't really fit, any others?" is not appropriate. And sometimes, items as class features is the easiest way to do that.
tl;dr You don't have free reign to pick any types of items you want as class features, but once the designers/group have okayed your character, yeah, appropriate items as class features is fine.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:58 pm

Depends on the magical item.
I support people being able to craft magical potions, magical armor, magical jewelry, and stuff weirder like druid groves, airships, and power armor. I may or may not implement restrictions based on the genre.
I am however uniformly against people crafting magical weapons across genres. Not enough to embark on a major crusade against them; I feel the same way about them that I feel about cursed equipment, splitting the eladrin and elf into two races, and half-orcs 'implied to have an ugly backstory'. Unfortunately I also realize that the lack of ability to craft magical weapons is much more conspicuous when everything else is craftable so there's really no way to have this in the game other than a stronger dose of WSoD than people are willing to give. So I even though I think that fully customizable and tricked-out castles are fucking awesome, having those in the game implies needing to have magical weapons without some massive in-setting contrivance.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Whatever
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Post by Whatever » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:01 am

> RadiantPhoenix wrote:So, someone says I forgot an option from the poll. What is the option I forgot?

You forgot the "I am an internet troll" option, presumably.
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Chamomile
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Post by Chamomile » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:06 am

Can't really do anything with this without more detail. I agree with the general idea, but there's plenty of places to screw it up in implementation.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:09 am

You seem to completely have neglected the actual important part of the question as it seemed to come up.
Should you trade real character power just to be able to decide to use Swords?.
That presents an entirely different axis of poll questions like.
Yes, sword guys should pay in character resources and be weaker than 'whatever" guys.
Yes, sword guys should pay in character resources and be STRONGER than "whatever guys. (because they paid character resources).
No, minor flavor choices should have minimal impact and there should be minimal notable power differentiation between Sword guy and Whatever Guy Who Happens to Have A Sword Today.
Your question as it stands is long, has excessively poor answer options and just isn't very interesting.
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CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:32 am

I say fuck it, let them craft what they need. Like it or not, people want "Sword Guy" as a character option, and saying "fuck you, no sword guy" is just as bad as saying "fuck you, no necromancer".

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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:56 am

As always, it depends on the game.
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Post by MGuy » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:50 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:As always, it depends on the game.

Yup.
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If you want a game modded right you have to mod it yourself.

> MGuy wrote:Finally a thread about fighters!

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Post by Fuchs » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:24 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Depends on the magical item.
> I support people being able to craft magical potions, magical armor, magical jewelry, and stuff weirder like druid groves, airships, and power armor. I may or may not implement restrictions based on the genre.
> I am however uniformly against people crafting magical weapons across genres.

Why? Why do you hate weapon crafting, but not armor crafting and everything else? Are weapons such an important part of the game for you?
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Swordslinger
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Post by Swordslinger » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:42 am

> PhoneLobster wrote: Should you trade real character power just to be able to decide to use Swords?.
> That presents an entirely different axis of poll questions like.
> Yes, sword guys should pay in character resources and be weaker than 'whatever" guys.
> Yes, sword guys should pay in character resources and be STRONGER than "whatever guys. (because they paid character resources).

Uh, you're creating a false dichotomy there. Having a powerful sword actually is character power and it's similar to taking an item creation feat.
You're trading feats for additional equipment, which isn't necessarily a deal that's going to leave you behind or put you ahead.
And if "sword guy" is a defining feature of your concept, you damn well should have part of your class abilities invested in having a sword, because that sword isn't just some random piece of equipment, it's an integral part of your character.
If you're making the Green Lantern, you better be paying for that ring and not expecting your DM to toss it in your path.
Last edited by Swordslinger on Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:00 am

> Swordslinger wrote:Uh, you're creating a false dichotomy there. Having a powerful sword actually is character power and it's similar to taking an item creation feat.

Completely flat out wrong. Swords have a measurable finite power. Equipment has measurable finite opportunities to use.
Swords in particular are a prime example as there are a very limited number of swords or other weapons you can use at any given time and a limited finite number of times you can use a sword.
The availability of items to fill "that one weapon I hit things with" is in most RPGs pretty much unlimited in comparison to the incredibly limited nature of the slot they fill.
There really IS absolutely NO "character power" to be gained by filling that slot with a specific item UNLESS that item is objectively more powerful.
Which, uh, you know leads to the question should you gain or lose character power by filling that slot with a specific item.
For your "false dichotomy" claim to have ANY basis in anything bar your insano moronic fantasy universe YOUR explanation and example SHOULDN'T fit one of the potential answers, which seems to be "Sword Guys should take feats and have measurable increases in character power for doing so".
I mean WTF? "Your question is wrong because I pick one of the answers!"

> ...you damn well should have part of your class abilities invested in having a sword...

Not ruled out by the question in any shape or form. Oddly, specifically ruled out by Frank and Lago as being badwrongfun.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Swordslinger
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Post by Swordslinger » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:17 am

> PhoneLobster wrote: There really IS absolutely NO "character power" to be gained by filling that slot with a specific item UNLESS that item is objectively more powerful.

At it's core, you're just gaining gold. You could have actually went out and bought the sword you're putting in that item slot. The fact that you didn't have to, because you paid a feat instead means that you've saved gold that can buy other stuff. Even if the sword is something one of your buddies could buy, the fact that you didn't buy it and could spend that money on a cloak of protection is a gain in character power for you.
This isn't that difficult. It just entails in finding a gold piece value of a feat. If that value is accurate then a character taking the sword feat will be balanced.

> Oddly, specifically ruled out by Frank and Lago as being badwrongfun.

No it wasn't. Frank was fine with people taking crafting feats. In fact, he was interested in protecting people who did by not just handing that shit out to people that paid nothing.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:34 am

> Swordslinger wrote:This isn't that difficult. It just entails in finding a gold piece value of a feat. If that value is accurate then a character taking the sword feat will be balanced.

Get back to me when you've succeeded in that one, and then once you've wasted your time and relieved us all of your stupidity, only THEN will I embarrass you with your own inadequate response.
I won't hold my breath while I wait though.

> No it wasn't. Frank was fine with people taking crafting feats. In fact, he was interested in protecting people who did by not just handing that shit out to people that paid nothing.

Except when he wasn't.

> Frank wrote:No. Having rules for crafting does not mean that you can get the items you want when you want them. It doesn't even mean that if your character personally has access to the crafting rules, as item power level limits, material components, or time constraints may very well put something out of your reach at the time you want it...
> ...When designing a character, you can either build in character abilities to get the specific items you want to have, or you can accept the very real chance that you won't get the items you want. There is no option 3, nor should there be.

So Frank explicitly stated he wants to protect the role of having crafting feats which are elaborate, complex, and so costly as to regularly be less worthwhile than just buying or finding things.
So no. He DOESN'T support taking crafting feats or protecting crafting as a role that "gets you what you want" because he explicitly claims it doesn't do that thing you think it does.
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A Man In Black
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Post by A Man In Black » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:46 am

Wow, this was such a great argument that it totally needed a second thread!
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Post by PhoneLobster » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:58 am

> A Man In Black wrote: second thread!

So.
You've only just started counting NOW?
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A Man In Black
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Post by A Man In Black » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:03 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:So.
> You've only just started counting NOW?

I was referring to you and Swordslinger, not Episode #3245 in How The Fuck Are We Going To Fix Loot? and Randomness Is Totally Aw[esome/ful].
Last edited by A Man In Black on Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ravengm
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Post by Ravengm » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:30 pm

Provided that the player is explicitly given the version of the item their class is based around in the class features, and as long as it's used sparingly, I don't have a huge problem with this. The Soulknife was one of my favorite classes thematically, because I enjoy the idea of Mind Lightsabers. If it was made to not suck, I would enjoy playing that class.

> Random thing I saw on Facebook wrote:Just make sure to compare your results from Weapon Bracket Table and Elevator Load Composition (Dragon Magazine #12) to the Perfunctory Armor Glossary, Version 3.8 (Races of Minneapolis, pp. 183). Then use your result as input to the "DM Says Screw You" equation.

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Maj
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Post by Maj » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:09 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:Should you trade real character power just to be able to decide to use Swords?

This was actually a big debate we had in our gaming group, though it began with Weapon Finesse: Should a character who wants to be Dex based rather than Str based have to pay a feat for the privilege? It expanded to equipment when Oriental Adventures came out with the Samurai.
Last edited by Maj on Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ravengm
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Post by Ravengm » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:17 am

> Maj wrote:

> > PhoneLobster wrote:Should you trade real character power just to be able to decide to use Swords?

> This was actually a big debate we had in our gaming group, though it began with Weapon Finesse: Should a character who wants to be Dex based rather than Str based have to pay a feat for the privilege? It expanded to equipment when Oriental Adventures came out with the Samurai.

The easiest solution I can think of is just to say "choose a weapon as your personal Soul Weapon/Overwhelming Proficiency/Masturbation Aid". That way someone can play the class as both the Lancer and the Samurai without sacrificing too much design space. Making a class for each specific weapon seems forced.

> Random thing I saw on Facebook wrote:Just make sure to compare your results from Weapon Bracket Table and Elevator Load Composition (Dragon Magazine #12) to the Perfunctory Armor Glossary, Version 3.8 (Races of Minneapolis, pp. 183). Then use your result as input to the "DM Says Screw You" equation.

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Swordslinger
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Post by Swordslinger » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:53 am

> PhoneLobster wrote: Get back to me when you've succeeded in that one, and then once you've wasted your time and relieved us all of your stupidity, only THEN will I embarrass you with your own inadequate response.
> I won't hold my breath while I wait though.

Are you retarded or something? Dude, this is what RPGs are all about. You have to make comparisons to judge much gold a feat is worth, or how a feat measures up to a class ability or having a magic weapon.
Everything is opportunity cost and limited resources. The cost of taking Cleave is that I may not have a feat slot for Dodge. If I take craft magic weapon, I'm trading a feat for increased character wealth. The cost of taking a level of rogue is that I didn't take a level of wizard. That's how these games are balanced.
The real question everyone should be asking about signature weapons is how much they're worth in terms of character resources, not in whether being a sword user should put you ahead or behind of everyone else.
Last edited by Swordslinger on Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:16 am

> Swordslinger wrote:Are you retarded or something? Dude, this is what RPGs are all about. You have to make comparisons to judge much gold a feat is worth, or how a feat measures up to a class ability or having a magic weapon.

The problem is that feats, spells, special abilities, etc tend to have a variable value in D&D.
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