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## After Sundown tweaks/house rules

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Lokathor
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Post by Lokathor » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:29 am

> Orion wrote:My instincts tell me it's a little too open. 3 fixed powers is less than half of the 8 a normal monster gets, and a level of flexibility others will be jealous of. I'd say at a bare minimum you want 4 fixed powers per splat, so your monster template is half fixed, half chosen.

If you want to have a game where you restrict the Mage type further you can just do that, but it's probably better to have the default be the more open type. This also lets you have "sorcery schools" where you always have 1 or 2 extra powers picked for you as part of your training, and foreign mages can have different automatic powers.
If all the power selections are Basic level picks it stays pretty fair.
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Post by erik » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:26 pm

> Lokathor wrote:If you want to have a game where you restrict the Mage type further you can just do that, but it's probably better to have the default be the more open type. This also lets you have "sorcery schools" where you always have 1 or 2 extra powers picked for you as part of your training, and foreign mages can have different automatic powers.
> If all the power selections are Basic level picks it stays pretty fair.

Having 6 preset powers is still more open than the previous default of 8. Going down to 3 or even 4 presets only is just too few.
For In Media Res you still have 6 more powers you get to choose. 6 preset and 6 choices is a nice balance. When less than half the mojo is determined by monster selection then monster identity is diminished.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:05 pm

Agreed. And honestly, I think you need to default to being conservative rather than permissive. It's generally easier to convince a GM that you've got a cool concept that just needs a little tweak than it is convince players that rolling back splat advantages in the name of fairness is a good idea. The former feels generous while the latter can come across as nerfing people.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:35 pm

The idea was to make Witch types be a "build your own Steve" piece. Where you get to grab bag a bunch of sorcery (and/or Discernment and/or Authority for Baali) based on the books you've been reading.
As such, letting people go nuts with making their character the way they want to is kind of the point. Other splats will get outright extra monster types to be, and the Witch gets the ability to have whatever kind of Infernal magic you want (or Orphic magic for the Khaibit).
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echoVanguard
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Post by echoVanguard » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:48 pm

Why not make each supernatural type an entry on a sliding scale based on what powers they receive? Witches could be the most open with "anything in your discipline" for their powers, while Lycanthropes and Vampires are the least open (having a lot of core powers that are thematically critical to their identity), with Animates and Transhumans being somewhere in between (a lot of the Animate powers, for example, seem weird - why can all Androids control wind?) I would suggest making some of the base powers on each creature type "suggested powers" that the player can swap out at creation (or template acquisition) if they wish. For example, an individual werewolf doesn't necessarily need Beast Form in the same manner they do War Form and Revive the Flesh - a werewolf without those isn't really a werewolf.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:32 pm

[*]Authority (6): Phantasmagoria, Purify Mind, Shorten the Fuse, Will to Power
[*]Celerity (2) <it's a strange discipline>
[*]Clout (6): Burrowing, Flight, War Form
[*]Discernment (7): Blind the Senses, Chain of Eyes, Shifting Sands, Telekinesis, Tracking the Echoes of the Muse
[*]Fortitude (5): Adaptive Resilience, Cleanse the Body, Empty Body, Flesh of Marble
[*]Magnetism (5): Betrayal of the Tongue, Desire Reflection, Facade of Nonchalance
[*]Veil (4): The Familiar Stranger, Holistic Ventriloquism
Phantasmagoria is a bit of an odd one, though. It is incredibly powerful, and could justifiably belong in Veil or maybe Discernment. Blind the Senses is also an odd case. It could also go in Veil, Authority, or maybe even Magnetism. Telekinesis doesn't really belong anywhere. It might actually work in Magnetism.
To absorb all of the new additions, it might be easiest to intentionally change the focus of one or more of the disciplines.
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schpeelah
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Post by schpeelah » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:05 pm

> echoVanguard wrote:Why not make each supernatural type an entry on a sliding scale based on what powers they receive? Witches could be the most open with "anything in your discipline" for their powers, while Lycanthropes and Vampires are the least open (having a lot of core powers that are thematically critical to their identity), with Animates and Transhumans being somewhere in between (a lot of the Animate powers, for example, seem weird - why can all Androids control wind?)

Yes, obviously when we have types with less than the full 8 powers locked down we no longer need to shoehorn in Control Wind with the flimsy justification that there's a lot of dramatic weather going on in Metropolis. However, one of the design goals of AS is the race system being coherent and meaningful, and the less powers a particular choice has nailed down the less meaningful it is. Once we already have one Steve clan for every power source, I think we should be stringy with giving out free power slots.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:24 pm

If witches are going to be supernatural erector sets, animating dead bodies might be too niche. Summon Spirits and Supernatural Senses (or better yet, Eyes of Night) is a good base.
I'd be happy starting them with Compel Spirits, Eyes of Night, Summon Spirits, and Thaumaturgical Forensics. That leaves 2 selectable basic powers and 2 selectable advanced.
You could have reanimators, ghost summoners, shadows, Jesuses, destroyers (Touch of Darkness, Glimpse the Abyss), ghosts (Empty Body, now a Fortitude power), an blood mages (Theft of Vitae). They probably don't need access to Discernment, but I'd throw it in there just for the occasional telepathic shadow or ghost.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:21 pm

But ghosts are already a thing. Called ghosts.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:15 am

> Orion wrote:But ghosts are already a thing. Called ghosts.

Do you have a problem with starting characters that are incorporeal and have lots of ghost friends?
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erik
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Post by erik » Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:14 am

I like the Witch flavors more than I like filling the Steve-gap.
What if we kept Witches, and to have a build-a-Steve there could be Mage.
Mages are a sub-class of Witch that draw from all 3 worlds as power sources and have focused their considerable knowledge upon Sorcerous Paths. Their Universal powers are able to be detected by Dowsing any method that would detect any world's power signature.
Mages regain power points by spending 2 hours reading their sorcerous tomes and tracing diagrams.
Mages are Weakened by water and vulnerable to Silver.
Mages have a Ritual power schedule.
Starting In Media Res Powers:
• Aura Perception
• Thaumaturgical Forensics
• Learn the Heart's Pain
• Dream Vision
+3 Basic and 3 Advanced powers selected from any Sorcery Path
+1 Basic and 1 Advanced power selected from any Universal Path
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Chamomile
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Post by Chamomile » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:29 am

To bring up something I just noticed: I'm in favor of swapping Animates (currently depowered by alcohol) and Transhumans (currently depowered by water). Mostly because then we get golems that begin to dissolve when wet, and likewise androids that begin to short-circuit when wet, and Frankensteins that run on electricity and go screwy when wet. Transhumans don't really lend themselves to any particular weakness, so alcohol screwing with their powers makes as much sense as water.
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Post by Username17 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:20 am

> Chamomile wrote:To bring up something I just noticed: I'm in favor of swapping Animates (currently depowered by alcohol) and Transhumans (currently depowered by water). Mostly because then we get golems that begin to dissolve when wet, and likewise androids that begin to short-circuit when wet, and Frankensteins that run on electricity and go screwy when wet. Transhumans don't really lend themselves to any particular weakness, so alcohol screwing with their powers makes as much sense as water.

That's possible. But it's actually a point in the original novel that Frankenstein doesn't drink alcohol at all. And in Evil of Frankenstein, it's a major plot point that Frankenstein's monster cannot hold his liquor. The weakness of Frankenstein's monster to alcohol and fire is so integral to the legend that in the otherwise execrable movie Van Helsing, when they want to establish that Frankenstein's Monster is going down at the beginning of the movie, they douse him in liquor and then set the windmill on fire (itself a reference to the 1931 movie).
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erik
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Post by erik » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:34 am

I don't have a bother with Animates, but Transhumans totally need to be depowered by Alcohol, if only because Reborn drinking to forget past memories is so appropriate.
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Chamomile
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Post by Chamomile » Mon Oct 07, 2013 11:03 am

> erik wrote:I don't have a bother with Animates, but Transhumans totally need to be depowered by Alcohol, if only because Reborn drinking to forget past memories is so appropriate.

Not to mention the Fallen. That said, bumping into a rainstorm is a significantly more awesome for the first Icarid to bite it rather than getting smashed mid-flight.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:56 pm

Is this terminology clearer?

> Magic in After Sundown comes in several flavors. Magic can be categorized by source (there are three sources: Astral, Infernal, and Orphic), or by type (Universal or Sorcery). Each magical Power also has several Aspects that can be learned and used separately, and these aspects are arranged by level (there are three levels: basic, advanced, and elder). For example: Darius is a Troglodyte who has some Aspects of Shroud. Shroud is a Universal Power, meaning that in his hands it has an Orphic source. One of his Aspects is Hide From Notice, which is a Basic Level Aspect that allows him to use Shroud to keep people from noticing that he is there. Another Aspect he has is Façade of Nonchalance, which is an Advanced Aspect that allows him to keep Extras from noticing that weird and magical things are happening around them.
> A Sorcery Power always has the same power source no matter who is invoking it or for what purpose. The Light of Ennui is always Inferal whether it is lit by an Infernal creature or an Astral one. A Universal Power comes from within, and has the same power source as the creature using it. So it has an Infernal source when used by a creature with an Infernal source, and an Orphic source when used by a creature with an Orphic source. Supernatural creatures have the same power sources, and they are inherently resistant to Powers with the same power source as themselves (gaining a +3 bonus to any resistance test they are allowed). Magic can be detected and countered by various means specific to whether it is Astral, Infernal, or Orphic. So if a Frankenstein (an Orphic creature) uses Devastation to lift a car it is an Orphic Magical Action and can be detected by the browning of nearby leaves; while an Android (an Infernal creature) doing the same thing would be an Infernal Magical Action that could be detected by the clouding of clear water.

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Orion
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Post by Orion » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:16 pm

The prose is good and clear. I'm unconvinced by "aspects," however. It's cute, and "aspects of a power" makes sense as a phrase. But that grammatical form doesn't compress nicely. If you tell people that each monster starts with "8 aspects" or that they need to pick four additional aspects for their character, they'll look at you funny. At least, it won't be as obvious what's going on as if you told them they start with 8 powers. Sometimes, the expanded form is helpful. Saying that you can select "an Advanced aspect of a Universal power, or of a Sorcery Power favored by your cult" is slightly better than saying you can select "an Advanced power from any Universal Power, or from a Sorcery Power favored by your cult." But other times expanding it is really awkward. Compare: "a typical supernatural will begin life with 8 powers" with "a typical supernatural will begin life with eight aspects of various powers" or "will begin life with several powers, and a total of 8 aspects between them."
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Post by Username17 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:43 pm

The short form is a good point. Powers in a Power is simply too confusing, and there really does need to be a word meaning just the individual entries within a power. I'm drawn to the word "Aspect" because it is fairly unambiguous that it refers to a specific entry in the power list, and because it implies that you could collect more Aspects to do other things with the Power (which is of course true).
It would of course be possible to change the terminology so that it flows nicer in short form. "You start with eight Talents", for example, flows fairly nicely. Of course, you lose in the long form when it comes back to "An advanced Talent of a Universal Power", which I find fairly opaque.
FATE seems to do OK telling players to select three "Aspects".
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Post by echoVanguard » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:55 pm

What was wrong with Disciplines? That seemed fairly clear - Clout, Progress of Glass, and Lure of Destruction were all Disciplines, and each Discipline contained three tiers of Powers. More to the point, an individual power such as Indominability might have several individual effects that it encompasses, which could more correctly be referred to as "aspects of that power".
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Post by Grek » Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:49 pm

Copyright issues with White Wolf, I imagine.

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Post by Chamomile » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:08 am

I would favor calling the individual basic, advanced, and elder abilities "powers" and coming up with something else for the groups. If Disciplines is off the table due to copyrights, then Talents would work well as the name of an actual group of powers for me.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:30 am

> Frank wrote:Magic can be categorized by source (there are three sources: Astral, Infernal, and Orphic), or by type (Universal or Sorcery).

"and".

Just about every term for powers and collections of powers that can be imagined has probably been used already, so the copyright issues aren't especially compelling. Are D&D disciplines and WoD "disciplines" infringing on each other?
Sorcery Discipline:
[*]Discipline
[*]School
[*]Sphere
[*]Domain
[*]Path
[*]Art
[*]Sorcery
Sorcery Power:
[*]Power
[*]Art
[*]Sorcery
[*]Spell
[*]Invocation
[*]Miracle
[*]Curse
Universal Discipline:
[*]Discipline
[*]Art
[*]Path
[*]Talent
[*]Aptitude
[*]Gift
Universal Power:
[*]Power
[*]Ability
[*]Art
[*]Talent
[*]Aptitude
[*]Gift
[*]Knack
[*]Miracle
I kind of like Art/Spell and Gift/Talent, because they are short, have the right feel of systematic Vs innate, and leave "sorcery", "power", and "ability" open for other use.
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Lokathor
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Post by Lokathor » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:51 pm

An ability you can pick and write on your sheet and use should be a "power" because there's lots of cultural inertia behind the idea of "having magic powers".
The word for the groups that magic powers get categorized into is almost totally open though. Discipline, School, Style, anything like that could be "group of powers"
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Post by echoVanguard » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:46 pm

If you want to subdivide universal powers and sorceries, you actually probably want something like this:

Power Type | Universal Powers | Sorceries
Disciplines | Path | Art
Individual Powers | Power | Spell

So Revive the Flesh would be a Power within the Fortitude Path, while Aura of Decay would be a spell within the Art of Descent of Entropy.
Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with just calling everything Paths and Powers. They're invoked the same, share the same mechanics, and the only thing that differentiates a Sorcery from a Universal Power is the power source (which sounds like it will change to match the creature's power source in 2E anyway). So there wouldn't be any problem with saying that Devastation is a Power in the Clout Path, while Water Prison is a Power in the Holocaust Great Leap Forward Trail of Tears Path.
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Post by Grek » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:56 am

Proposed Patience of the Mountains fix:
Patience of the Mountains ceases to exist as a discipline. Everything that currently has it loses it. Replacement disciplines are as follows:
Nosferatu: Clinging
Strigoi: Repel
Daeva: Nimble Feet
Vampire Spawn: None.
Animates: Inanimacy. Also, Frankensteins and Golems trade in Devastation for Indomitability.
Mutants: Revive the Flesh.
Fallen: Revive the Flesh.
Zombies: Inanimacy.
Trolls: None.
Ghosts: Inanimacy.
Demons: Inanimacy
Other disciplines are altered as follows:
Inanimacy is the new basic Fortitude power. Having it means that your biology is wildly different than that of a normal human. You lack blood in the conventional sense, are immune to mundane diseases and poisons, can neither suffocate nor drown, age in ways that humans do not (such as rusting) and require foods that are either inedible (raw electricity) or insufficient (muddy water) for humans to survive on as your daily sustenance.
Indomitability now grants immunity to sleep, fatigue and cramping along with the current effects.
Revive the Flesh now also lets you cure yourself of all poisons and diseases effecting you for 1 power point. For 10 power points, you can undo one year of ageing per potency.
Restoration, in addition to the current effects, allows you to go without food and drink indefinitely at the cost of looking more and more monstrous the longer you go without. This effect is reversed every time you regain power points.

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