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Aryxbez
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Post by Aryxbez » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:41 am

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > OgreBattle wrote:The 4th boss fight was so hard I had to take off my pants to beat it.

> There have been many games where I had to get nude to beat difficult bosses.

May I ask why the stripping (to nudity no less) was needed? I'm making the guess it's due to frustration/anger making you feel warmer, or actually sweating from the sequence of fast paced events, stripping to cool off.

> Longes wrote:I hope it's better than Dragon Commander. The idea was fine, but suffered from terrible lack of focus. IMHO, the game would have been better as an action, a la Drakengard.

I'm all for a Drakengard experience (looking forward to the 3rd coming out), although this was something I really wanted to try. I don't really have much experience in the land of strategy-like games, so would this be something that's "not enough" for the tactical minded, but engaging enough for those new to it?
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:15 am

"Next-gen strategy game engine lets you control an army of 5,000 units at one time"
On the one hand, it's totally awesome that you can do that. On the other hand, why the hell would you want to do that?

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:03 pm

> Aryxbez wrote:

> > Shrapnel wrote:

> > > OgreBattle wrote:The 4th boss fight was so hard I had to take off my pants to beat it.

> > There have been many games where I had to get nude to beat difficult bosses.

> May I ask why the stripping (to nudity no less) was needed? I'm making the guess it's due to frustration/anger making you feel warmer, or actually sweating from the sequence of fast paced events, stripping to cool off.

It's a "mash attack button as fast as you can" sequence. I was beginning to get frustrated as it's been years since I've done so and I prided myself in being able to press attack buttons very quickly when I was a little kid.
I had failed to defeat King David 3 times and began using up my precious 'continue' tokens when I realized that mashing attack was also heating me up. Even the sound of my belt buckle was a bit irritating.
So then I took my pants off for one last try. I mashed attack faster than ever, and my pantslessness allowed all built up heat to quickly dissapate.
To defeat King David, I had to become as naked as him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ckkx9_iVpA
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:41 am

So I finally got Dark Souls, and I'm currently just starting the "Anor Londo" area. My question is this: when does this game become fun? I think I've had fun for a combined total of maybe five minutes, being generous.
Note that I'm not saying, "It's too hard to be fun." For fuck's sake, I was in the top 100 of Ninja Gaiden Black. In fact, Dark Souls is not hard. If you have the patience to suffer through the unfun combat, then it's dead easy. The problem is that the combat is so boring and slow-paced that you try to break the monotony or hasten things along, which gets you killed. The only "difficult" things I've encountered are stupid "the DM says fuck-you" things. (Ex, I didn't know that picking up the gold-hemmed set perma-aggroed Ceaseless Discharge, so I spent the next half hour just trying to run back to fightin' range.)
The combat is pathetically simplistic and mind-numbingly boring. The areas are uninteresting and poorly laid out given the constraints of the movement controls. (In fact, basic movement and aiming are actually the hardest part of this fucking thing.) The last visually striking thing I remember was actually right after the intro area. The story, such that it is, is so poorly delivered that I had to start a new fucking character just so I could see the intro movie again, since the fucking game doesn't do any-fucking-thing to make the narrative or even your fucking goals an important fixture.
So I go onto review sites looking to see what people say, and they're all like, "Sen's Fortress is fucking amazing," or, "When I saw the xxxx I was intrigued and wanted to see more." Or something as utterly wtf as

> As you wander the parapets of the Undead Burg, you'll occasionally hear the tolling of the bell at the top of the gargoyle tower, signifying someone else's triumph over a boss. You'll feel spurred on to success yourself, reassured that it's not impossible, or you'll smile at the memory of your own victory if you're already further on.

WTF? Or

> Dark Souls' story is subtly and sparsely told, leaving you to write your own mythology, giving you only cryptic, unsettling verses of vague exposition to go on. The world speaks for itself.

No, it fucking doesn't. It's just half-assed and unfinished.
I seriously don't understand. Have the years made me too completely jaded to enjoy this? Am I so inured to the tropes and motifs of RPGs/action games that nothing affects me?
Or is Dark Souls just a shitty game that's made of shit with a shitty, half-finished core that From Software justified selling by calling it "hard"?
I keep comparing it to other hard games I've played over the years, particularly the Ninja Gaiden series. Now, Ninja Gaiden I&II (Xbox/360) were known as hard games. And they were honestly hard. You had to master several skill sets, manage resources, learn enemy patterns, navigate dangerous areas, and do it all at breakneck speeds. But even when it was soul-crushingly frustrating (a certain bonus area in NG2 springs to mind) it was always fun, because the gameplay itself was fun. Dark Souls fails this fundamental test.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:10 am

I don't know why people tried to claim Dark Souls as hard. It isn't so much 'hard' as 'challenging'. It rewards system mastery big-time. Combat has a few rules (turtle until you know what the hell you're doing being #1) and paying homage to those rules makes the game significant easier.
What you said about Ninja Gaiden applies to about everything in Dark Souls--except it has a methodical pacing and a lot less platforming. Most fights are over -really- quickly, one way or another. Fighting another player is essentially like the old samurai duel--whoever makes the first mistake loses.
I enjoyed Dark Souls for the exploration and mastering the combat. I felt pretty badass the first time I killed a boss without being killed by it (the Gaping Dragon, by the way) and Blighttown (MOTHERFUCKING BLIGHTTOWN) remains one of my favorite (sorta) areas in games. If you don't like it by the time you beat Anor Londo or the Painted World (a subarea in Anor Londo), well, it sounds like it's not for you. Hell, if you don't like it by now, I doubt it's for you. Gameplay remains the same, you just fight bigger and worse enemies, while (probably) getting stronger and gaining new weapons and new spells along the way, with the tiebreaker being your increased experience.
If you haven't tried the PVP yet, by all means give it whirl to see how the fighting goes against another player (usually really short, one way or another), but if you're not having fun yet, then I'm sorry, we find fun in different things. I liked the exploration and environments and the variety of viable combat methods and how system mastery trumps everything else in the game.
Last edited by Maxus on Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:13 am

> NineInchNall wrote: I keep comparing it to other hard games I've played over the years, particularly the Ninja Gaiden series. Now, Ninja Gaiden I&II (Xbox/360) were known as hard games. And they were honestly hard. You had to master several skill sets, manage resources, learn enemy patterns, navigate dangerous areas, and do it all at breakneck speeds. But even when it was soul-crushingly frustrating (a certain bonus area in NG2 springs to mind) it was always fun, because the gameplay itself was fun. Dark Souls fails this fundamental test.

Dark Souls is hard in the way Mario Bros is hard.
It's not like Ninja Gaiden where it's hard like the way a fighting game gets hard.
DS is about walking around in a neat environment and surviving dangers, like Mario with a bit more dialog.
I grabbed the Zweihander early from the too-hi-level-for-u skeleton graveyard, it was fun just smushing undead with my giant sword.
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:19 am

I found a spear (winged spear) 15 minutes after I left the asylum that I've been using ever since. There's not a damn item I've picked up that is sufficiently better, because attacking while blocking = winz.
(I actually didn't even realize there was a path up to Undead Burg for the first hour, so I spent that time in the too-high-level-for-u graveyard mastering the combat until I could get through the area without getting hit. The input for the jump-forward-stab is quite finicky, and it took a while to get the timing for it down.)
I killed the first boss without being killed by it. The second boss without being killed by it, and it took two tries to beat the third. It hasn't taken me more than two tries to deal with any boss since. Crap, the only times I've had to retry bosses (except for Ceaseless Discharge, but that's just fucking poorly designed bullshit) have been literal game bugs, where the boss ceased to exist so I had to quit and reload.
Trying pvp is not really a thing, since I hate people. (To make this like the Ghouls OSSR, the theme song for this post is Misanthrope, by Ihsahn.) I avoid interacting with people in video games like the plague, so I've spent the whole game hollow.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:27 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:31 am

Well, if nothing else, try your hand on the boss of Anor Londo. I am very confident that turtling with your spear isn't going to be sufficient there. I agree that Ceaseless Discharge is, in fact, bullshit. Or, if you so choose, give the Painted World a shot (it's a dungeon that's...once you go in, you can't leave until you make it through. And the boss of it is optional).
Late-game areas do get harder, and optional areas (like the Painted World or the Great Hollow) are also renowned for making people headbutt things.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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rampaging-poet
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Post by rampaging-poet » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:48 am

I had a fair bit of fun exploring when I played. When I reached the higher levels, I started messing around with different weapons. The most rewarding thing about Dark Souls for me was returning to areas I'd been to levels earlier and laying waste to everything - but being careless doing that got me killed a few times. If you don't get fulfilment out of practising an area until you can play it like an instrument, Dark Souls may not be the game for you.
Humanity was scarce enough that I hollow-formed most of the game because I didn't feel like spending another two hours killing rats in a sewer to get it back after being invaded. PvP is very tough because most of the other people doing PvP will have been playing much, much longer than you. Also, they add a completely unknown element to the otherwise predictable environment which I found absolutely terrifying. The little bit of PvP I did was fun, but waiting to be invaded was not.
Anor Londo was my main grinding spot until I started butchering pygmy skeletons for Humanity in the late game. Other than the stupid knights on the ledge it was one of my favourite areas. It's also where I learned to parry, a skill essential for at least one boss. And yeah, blocking won't do you much good against the boss. That one took me a few tries.

> DSMatticus wrote:I sort my leisure activities into a neat and manageable categorized hierarchy, then ignore it and dick around on the internet.

My deviantArt account, in case anyone cares.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:49 am

> NineInchNall wrote:(In fact, basic movement and aiming are actually the hardest part of this fucking thing.)

What are you playing it on?

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:43 am

Which games do you consider to be the top 3? Ever? Last 10 years? Last 5 years?
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Shrapnel
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Post by Shrapnel » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:43 pm

> Aryxbez wrote:

> > Shrapnel wrote:

> > > OgreBattle wrote:The 4th boss fight was so hard I had to take off my pants to beat it.

> > There have been many games where I had to get nude to beat difficult bosses.

> May I ask why the stripping (to nudity no less) was needed? I'm making the guess it's due to frustration/anger making you feel warmer, or actually sweating from the sequence of fast paced events, stripping to cool off

What Ogre said, plus the fact that getting nude increases airflow to my sensitive nipples, allowing my concentration to increase. It's all sciencey and stuff.

> Longes wrote:Which games do you consider to be the top 3? Ever? Last 10 years? Last 5 years?

For my top three list, it'd have to be...
1. Ecco the Dolphin: Tides of Time
2. Fallout 3
3. A tie between Pokemon Crystal and Dragon Quest IX.
Last edited by Shrapnel on Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Is this wretched demi-bee
Half asleep upon my knee
Some freak from a menagerie?
No! It's Eric, the half a bee
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John Magnum
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Post by John Magnum » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:45 pm

Top two are Metroid Prime and Bulletstorm. I dunno what the third would be. Maybe Borderlands.
-JM
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:53 pm

> Longes wrote:Which games do you consider to be the top 3? Ever? Last 10 years? Last 5 years?

Jeez, that's a tough choice because I've got a lot of games that I loved the hell out of it
For stuff that I have long made an effort to keep around to replay...
1) Super Mario RPG
2) Quest for Glory (as a whole)
3) Majora's Mask
For titles that I -had- to finish when I was playing
1) Red Dead Redemption
2) Tales of Symphonia
3) Paper Mario TTYD
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:53 pm

I don't turtle against bosses; in fact, I don't think I've ever actually blocked a boss attack. Bosses feel the might of Great Soul Arrow to the face. Anyway ... I just beat Ornstein and Smough, and yeah, still not fun. I don't even feel tension going from room to room and area to area anymore ... So I think I'm done.

> Kaelik wrote:What are you playing it on?

PC, using a 360 controller.

> rampaging-poet wrote:If you don't get fulfilment out of practising an area until you can play it like an instrument, Dark Souls may not be the game for you.

The sort of area mastery involved in Dark Souls is not one that I find rewarding. But then, I don't like country music or rom-coms.

> Longes wrote: Which games do you consider to be the top 3? Ever? Last 10 years? Last 5 years?

5:

- Dishonored
- Little Inferno
- Bastion

10:

- Mass Effect (1)
- The Witcher (1)
- Ninja Gaiden Black

Ever:

- Silent Hill 2
- Super Street Fighter 2
- Soulcalibur (1)

Honorable Mentions:

- Fallout (1)
- Prototype (1)
- Half-Life 2
- Bioshock (1)
- Silent Hill 1&3
- Defense Grid
- Otogi 2
- Tekken 3
- Rez HD
- Civilization 4
- Quake 2
- Knights of the Old Republic (1)
- Lunar: The Silver Star
- Halo (1)
- Secret of Mana

Last edited by NineInchNall on Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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TarkisFlux
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Post by TarkisFlux » Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:28 pm

... Why Defense Grid?
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:47 pm

> Longes wrote:Which games do you consider to be the top 3? Ever? Last 10 years? Last 5 years?

In recent years, I've really enjoyed Crusader Kings II, Dishonored, and Mass Effect 2. Shadow of Chernobyl just narrowly misses being included in the last five years.
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:48 am

> TarkisFlux wrote:... Why Defense Grid?

I just like it.
Of the time waster games I've bought to fill the void between major releases over the years, I've put more hours into getting high scores on that than on anything else. More hours on it than on the actual "core" games, really. The only steam game for which I've got more time logged is Skyrim, and that's only due to time spent working on mods.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:10 am

On understanding Dark Souls...

> Hidetaka Miyazaki, director of D Souls wrote: “I’d worked exclusively on Armored Core titles in my role at From Software, but I’d always wanted to make a dark fantasy game that drew on the Fighting Fantasy series of books. The Demon’s Souls project was that opening that I’d always been waiting for."

As for my top 3 games... well it's more than 3 but here you go
Secret of Mana series
Phantasy Star Online
Street Fighter III, Capcom fighting games in general
Bomberman series
Metal Gear series
Monster Hunter series
Breath of Fire series, Dragon Quarter in particular
Final Fantasy series, VI & Tactics in particular
Chrono Trigger
Pokemon series
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
Lost Planet II
Azure Dreams
Things I play with friends:
DotA, Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo series
FPS's, though they often give me a headache (Katamari Damacy made me want to puke)
New games that are cool:
Nidhogg! Met up with other game designers in Beijing at a videogame bar, lots of fun.
Game I want to make:
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night style with Darksouls multiplayer mechanics and a fighting system more like Monster Hunter.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Korgan0
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Post by Korgan0 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:24 am

A few off the top of my head that qualify as best: League of Legends, Crusader Kings II, Shogun 2 Total War, TF2, World of Goo, Hotline Miami, BG2.
Honourable mentions: Eve Online (:ccp:), Borderlands 2 (Gearbox can't balance worth shit nor do math), Skyrim, Men Of War, XCOM.
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Aryxbez
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Post by Aryxbez » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:56 pm

> Longes wrote:Which games do you consider to be the top 3? Ever? Last 10 years? Last 5 years?

Last 10...Maximo Ghosts to Glory, Colosseum: Road To Freedom (keep coming back to play this time and time again,so must mean something), and...Kirby Super Star?
Last 5...Fallout: New Vegas, Persona 3, Bastion I guess?
EVER! = Megaman X Collection, Conker's Bad Fur Day, Gauntlet-Series.
I certainly feel like I'd have an easier time filling out the "Last 10" years opposed to anything else.
That said, I also dig: Breath of Fire 1, Champions of Norrath-series, Dead Rising-series, Demon Souls, Final Fantasy IV, Gladius, Hunter: The Reckoning-series, Mass Effect, Radiata Stories, Rocket Slime, Rogue Galaxy, Super Ghouls & Ghosts. These games among perhaps others I forget, hold their honorable place in my conscious.
What I find wrong w/ 4th edition: "I want to stab dragons the size of a small keep with skin like supple adamantine and command over time and space to death with my longsword in head to head combat, but I want to be totally within realistic capabilities of a real human being!" --Caedrus mocking 4rries
"the thing about being Mister Cavern [DM], you don't blame players for how they play. That's like blaming the weather. Weather just is. You adapt to it. -Ancient History
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:06 am

> Aryxbez wrote:EVER! = Megaman X Collection

I find this description of Megaman X amusing.
Current pet peeves:
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Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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silva
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Post by silva » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:02 pm

Top 3 games of all-time ? Impossible to decide.
Top 3 games of the last decade? Easy:
1. Dark Souls,
2. Crusader Kings 2,
3. Dwarf Fortress.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:23 pm

> NineInchNall wrote:

> > Aryxbez wrote:EVER! = Megaman X Collection

> I find this description of Megaman X amusing.

I've never actually played Megaman
My top ever would be:
-HoMM 3/Disciples 2 (HoMM has better mechanics, Disciples has better art)
-Deus Ex
-Fable
Last decade:
-NWN2 (both original and Mask of Betrayer)
-KotOR 2 (with the restoration patch)
-Dragon Age 2
Fate/Stay Night recieves an honorable mention since I greatly enjoyed it, but VN's don't really qualify as games.
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:06 pm

Alright, then. How about the top 3 overrated games (series can count as single entries) of the past 5/10/ever? You know, the games that have crazy high metacritic scores and the love of apparently everyone, but you just can't understand why no one realizes the gameplay/story/sound/graphics/design is/are shite.
For example:

> Longes wrote:<potential hypocrisy alert>
> Despair! I'm in despair! The world where people blindly fanboy about things has put me in despair!
> I've finished Bioshock Infinite and I'm despaired about people claiming that it's the best thing since sliced baguettes. And how they tie ambient screeching sound from Bioshock 1 into foreshadowing for Songbird in Bioshock Infinite. Seriously, Bioshock Infinite is a mediocre shooter with jumbled plot, deus ex machinas galore and lame quantum physics crap.

Last edited by NineInchNall on Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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