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TavishArtair
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Post by TavishArtair » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:23 pm

If you want to reinforce the snake = death = shadow theme, I'll point to Apep/Apophis, who swallowed the sun every night as a giant serpent and caused darkness and shadow, from which the sun was eventually reborn. Just saying. On the other hand, I'd totally bow to a decision to say "Ventrue are really Setites, Khaibit are scarab-sorcerers, and our third Leviathan consists of troglodytes and fungus-men or something." That's actually a decent arrangement, I think. It also means that Ventrue/Setites get the stronger associates with Apep and want to have a giant serpent swallow the sun almost literally, being vampires who rule by night and at the very least suck by day.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:51 am

That's a strong argument really. Making a Ventrue/Setite mix that is half Dracula and half Lady Silvia Marsh would be entirely practical. Big teeth equal big teeth and so on and so forth.
The difficulty I see with that setup is that swarm control in World of Darkness is historically a demonic magic thing. So the swarm controllers are probably still going to be Leviathans. At which point the Khaibit give up the snake theme but don't really have anything to necessarily replace it with. They can of course just grab any of a number of Euthanatos or other Necromancer gimmicks and move on with their lives, so that's not an insurmountable problem by any means.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:52 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:The difficulty I see with that setup is that swarm control in World of Darkness is historically a demonic magic thing. So the swarm controllers are probably still going to be Leviathans.

er, what?
how does "demonic magic that summons swarms"="Gotta be the leviathan"?
I mean to me "Demonic magic that summons swarms" says "It's the baali"
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:39 am

> Prak_Anima wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote:The difficulty I see with that setup is that swarm control in World of Darkness is historically a demonic magic thing. So the swarm controllers are probably still going to be Leviathans.

> er, what?
> how does "demonic magic that summons swarms"="Gotta be the leviathan"?
> I mean to me "Demonic magic that summons swarms" says "It's the baali"

Because the two Leviathans who have the highest demand are the Creature from the Black Lagoon (who is ported in as Astral), and the Morlocks (who are ported in as Orphic). Those guys have a lock on their position, which means that all the other cryptids and monstrous lineages are competing for the Infernal slot.
Meanwhile, there is an Infernal demand for the bug collector and there's an Infernal demand for the Twisted Fire Starter. Which means that if you make the Baali all about coughing up swarms of bugs on you, that pretty much forces the last of the Leviathan to be Surtr - descendants of the fire dragon who grow large and have fire for blood. That's certainly doable, but not how I want to mark out conceptual space.
If we make the Ventrue into snake vampires (which is Totally Doable), the most logical way to me to block it out is to leave the Baali doing Corruption and Fire, leave the bug spitting to the Mi Go, and then have the Khaibit go full Necromancer.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:04 am

Actually, the idea of Surtr descendants and bug summoning mages is pretty awesome. And honestly, so is the fire/corruption mages and Mi Go bug summoners.
thanks for explaining that Frank, I failed to look behind the scenes, so to speak.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:07 pm

The necromancers have a pretty interesting shtick as extortionists from beyond the grave. This is covered in The Case of Charles Dexter Ward. The basic idea is that, if you could if you could draw forth the spirits of the dead from their corpses, you would hire people to go around grave robbing the rich and famous and then blackmail their descendants with their little dark secrets. In the above book, the dead are brought back corporeally and the villain of the story has a room full of medieval torture devices to make them talk.
This works well in a political game, and gives necromancers a strong position in any organization (as well as making them generally hated and feared). I could totally see a 'family-owned' international mortuary business headquartered in Cairo, with secret mausoleums and treasure vaults beneath the pyramids.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:41 pm

So the Ventrue, Khaibit, and Mi Go would work like this:

The Ventrue
“A weapon you don't have in your hand will not kill a snake.”
A Ventrue has an Orphic power source and a Feeding power schedule.

- Ventrue Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Fortitude -
- Patience of the Mountains (Basic Fortitude)
- Revive the Flesh (Basic Fortitude)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Vigor (Basic Potence)
- Tongue of the Serpent (Basic Lure of Shadows)
- Blood Bondage (Basic Path of Blood)
- Mesmerism (Basic Dominate)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Restoration (Advanced Fortitude)
- Indomitably (Advanced Fortitude)

The Khaibit Tradition
“There are far worse things awaiting man than death.”
The Khaibit Witch has an Orphic power source and a Ritual power schedule.

- Khaibit Starting Disciplines
  “There are far worse things awaiting man than death.”
  - Core Discipline: Necromancy -
- Summon Spirit (Basic Necromancy)
- Compel Spirits (Basic Necromancy)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Aura Perception (Basic Auspex)
- Eyes of Night (Basic Obtenebration)
- Tongue of the Serpent (Basic Lure of Shadows)
- Thaumaturgical Forensics (Basic Path of Blood)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Solid Darkness (Advanced Obtenebration)
- Reanimate (Advanced Necromancy)

The Mi Go: The Larvae of Echidna
“There can never be good for the bee which is bad for the hive.”
A Mi Go has an Infernal power source and a Lunar power schedule.

- Mi Go Starting Disciplines
  - Core Discipline: Swarm Song -
- Small Witness (Basic Swarm Song)
- Body Colony (Basic Swarm Song)
  - Basic Disciplines -
- Body Weaponry (Basic Protean)
- Nimble Feet (Basic Celerity)
- Awe (Basic Presence)
- Dark Sight (Basic Auspex)
  -Advanced Disciplines -
- Telepathy (Advanced Auspex)
- Magnify the Swarm (Advanced Swarm Song)

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Ganbare Gincun
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Post by Ganbare Gincun » Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:38 am

Wait. Aren't the Ventrue supposed to be the "Dracula Type" of Vamprie? I wouldn't think that the whole "snake magic" thing would really mesh well with that archetype...
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:05 am

> Ganbare Gincun wrote:Wait. Aren't the Ventrue supposed to be the "Dracula Type" of Vamprie? I wouldn't think that the whole "snake magic" thing would really mesh well with that archetype...

No? Dracula's gaze mesmerizing (classical snake magic). He has fangs (like a snake). His bite is apparently venomous (like a snake). He has unnaturally good sight in the dark (like a snake). He's also probably pretty good at grappling to successfully feed on the unwilling. So the only powers which aren't snake related are animal control (although command of prey, e.g. rats, might be), turning into mist, and being highly immune to damage.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
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Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:07 am

Dracula climbs up the fucking wall with his hands and legs, that could be spider or snake-like. Let's say that it's snake, since it's what we want.
He has -fangs-, let's make other vampires -not- have fangs? Bang, more snake-like.
uh... cold skin, snakes have fairly ..... ok, they don't actually have cold skin, but it's something that people can sometimes assume.
give them slitted pupils, like a snake (or cat, but w/e).
that's enough to take current Vampire things and make them still seem traditional, -and- snake-like.
They're also predators. Whoop! Whoop! Snakes are some of the oldest predators still around on land. The only other predators that have been around longer are crocodilians, and they're semi-aquatic; and sharks, which are wholey aquatic.
Also, the idea of vampires comes from India, a nation well associated with snakes. Traditional vampires are blood-sucking snake-men that came from india thousands of years ago, and settled, unseen in the European populace.
It's not all good, but it does have some related ideas.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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IB90
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Post by IB90 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:59 am

For the Ventrue, one idea could be to borrow an idea from the Twilight series (a terrible initial sentence, but let me continue) and replace their body fluids with venom.
Also, there is a South American monster called the Peuchen which would gaze upon a victim, paralyzing him or her, and then suck their blood. This is pretty much how Dracula rolled.
Last edited by IB90 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:15 am

> IB90 wrote:For the Venture, one idea could be to borrow an idea from the Twilight series (a terrible initial sentence, but let me continue) and replace their body fluids with venom.

this plus JE's suggestion to have the other vamps not have fangs... plus the suggestion that ventrue have poison... and finally the cold skin... means that making a vampire gives you a choice between a character with two major, well known twilight traits, or three... and that's not a decision I ever want to have to make as a character... in fact I think I currently have enough reasons to drink... any more and I might actually start carting around booze on a daily basis...
Last edited by Prak on Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:36 am

In all honesty, all that I can remember from the Twilight series is "sparkley skin in sunlight"; which is probably the most terrible feature for -any- supernatural creature to have, except for a pixie or fairie.
What features to Twilight vampires have that are very unusual?
Also, there are -other- cases of non-fanged vampires. Like, the X-files. They wore canine caps to help bite necks, but didn't have proper fangs themselves.
Honestly, just piss on Twilight, pour some starter fuel on it, an drop a lit match. Burn it out of your mind, and focus on actual vampire myths from ancient india, the place that the creatures came from.
We'll all be better served if the people that -care- about vampires enough to get drunk about them use their "give a shit" to find out something really cool and spooky about ancient vampires.
Also, fuck the western perception of vampires. People fuck up shit from other cultures all the time, so let's get to the original myths, there might be some gems worth looting in there.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
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IB90
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Post by IB90 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:28 am

Cold skin is pretty common in most vampire fiction, since vampires are undead. That and fangs should be present in all the vampires, because it is so iconic. Ventrue may be the only ones who are able to dislocate their jaws, revealing canines that are unusually long for vampires, however.
The main reason I think giving Ventrue venom is a good idea is because it would reduce the overlap between them and Daevas.
Daevas are the vampires who are most likely to act human. They blend in with human society better than the others and may even form relationships with mortals.
I see Ventrues as manipulating human society, but never being a part of it. Any Ventrue who even tries to form a physical relationship with a human will end up killing the mortal. Even a kiss would do it. In fact, if you made the venom poisonous to other vampires, it would encourage Ventrue to avoid relationships altogether, making them solitary creatures, much like snakes. (I know Dracula had his brides, but most of his major actions took place in England, in which he was essentially a lone agent.)
Most NPC Ventrues should not desire relationships with mortals. This physical restriction mainly ensure PCs act the way their monster is supposed to act. Also, it avoids mesmerized date rape, which is a good thing.
Last edited by IB90 on Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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IB90
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Post by IB90 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:49 am

Also, if you want a Ventrue trait from Indian myth, you can always look at Vikram and the Vampire. The vampire in it tells true stories, has immense knowledge of mortals, and asks riddles. This would make Ventrues the "smart ones" of vampire society.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:19 pm

Er, deadly poison is kinda bad for creatures that have to bite those that they feed on. Mandatory continuous humanity loss might be tragic, but it would also be very fast and lead to a lot of character turnover.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Win Game.
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Roy
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Post by Roy » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:34 pm

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:Er, deadly poison is kinda bad for creatures that have to bite those that they feed on. Mandatory continuous humanity loss might be tragic, but it would also be very fast and lead to a lot of character turnover.

Ventrue are immune to their own poison (but not the poison of other Ventrue, or even other poison period if you want to go that route). Done.
If they weren't, they wouldn't even get to the 'bite others' part because they'd pull a fucking anti matter.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:45 pm

> IB90 wrote:Cold skin is pretty common in most vampire fiction, since vampires are undead. That and fangs should be present in all the vampires, because it is so iconic. Ventrue may be the only ones who are able to dislocate their jaws, revealing canines that are unusually long for vampires, however.

The cold skin doesn't bother me, it's one of like two things that make the twilight shits even close to vampires, I do like the idea that ventrue just have unusually long fangs and unhinge their jaws.

> stuff

yes, this.

> Roy wrote:Ventrue are immune to their own poison (but not the poison of other Ventrue, or even other poison period if you want to go that route). Done.
> If they weren't, they wouldn't even get to the 'bite others' part because they'd pull a fucking anti matter.

It's not about them killing themselves, it's about never having the option of leaving someone alive after feeding, and the toll on humanity that nightly murder will take, plunging their humanity into "psychopathic monstrous npc" levels.
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Roy
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Post by Roy » Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:25 pm

Ah, ok. Then how about 'injecting venom is a conscious choice on the part of the Ventrue'?
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:25 pm

how about "you're a horrible monster that preys on society, deal with it, there is no humanity stat"?
that seems the way the rest of this is going, anyway.
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Roy
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Post by Roy » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:56 pm

> Prak_Anima wrote:how about "you're a horrible monster that preys on society, deal with it, there is no humanity stat"?
> that seems the way the rest of this is going, anyway.

Yeah sure, but I thought the issue was that they may not want to be obvious about it. Even spawn creating undead tend not to want to draw attention to themselves, see Libris Mortis for D&D based examples of this.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Jun 14, 2009 11:05 pm

good point, I was only looking at the metagame concern, probably both your idea and mine should be true then.
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IB90
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Post by IB90 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:11 am

> Prak_Anima wrote:how about "you're a horrible monster that preys on society, deal with it, there is no humanity stat"?
> that seems the way the rest of this is going, anyway.

That's fine, as long as all the races are equally lacking in the humanity stat.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:45 am

> IB90 wrote:

> > Prak_Anima wrote:how about "you're a horrible monster that preys on society, deal with it, there is no humanity stat"?
> > that seems the way the rest of this is going, anyway.

> That's fine, as long as all the races are equally lacking in the humanity stat.

Why would any of them have it in the first place? Like I said, this seems to be going the way of being a game about being a horrific monster that does terrible things to people to survive and further your supernatural species, and being just fine about it, or if you are conflicted about it, you roleplay that, and there is no need for a stat enforcing that.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:04 am

So how fucking twisted is it if the Sabbat are the ones with a major lockdown on resurrecting people and the torturing them for information? Makes a lot of sense why they'd all be wearing amulets depicting torture devices, anyway.

As for humanity and the deadly venom, it would probably just mean that most Ventrue don't bite to get blood. Which is kinda sad, actually.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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