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## A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Lago_AM3P
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### A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:35 pm

Okay, normally level drain is complete, undiluted ass. It requires a bunch of extra accounting, is very abusable, and is both too easy to fix to care about yet screws over your character for the rest of the campaign in many groups.
However, one use of the difference engine that I do endorse is using it to trade out levels that you don't want for levels that you do want.
For example, take the character of a wizard 3 / cleric 3 / mystic theurge 2 / incantatrix (divine spellcasting levels) 2. Normally, this character is pure ass. However, lose levels in such a way that you end up being a wizard 1 / cleric 1 / mystic theurge 2 / Incantatrix 2, then get that experience restored so that you're a wizard 1 / cleric 1 / mystic theurge 4 / Incantatrix 4. Suddenly this character is a lot more fun to play and doesn't blow as much.
I think the idea of being forced to slog through empty levels and (in a related rant) picking skills and feats you don't want is silly. It didn't stop people from being Loremasters and Divine Oracles; all it did was piss them off.
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Murtak
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Murtak » Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:47 pm

That is not a reason to like level drain, that is yet another reason to dislike crappy classes and/or crappy levels in a class (not to mention crappy prestige class requirements).
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by RandomCasualty » Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:51 pm

It would be cool to trade out levels, though generally I don't like the idea of swapping levels to play around with PrC prereqs and build a more powerful character.
Level swapping should be used in situations you decide to change around your character's concept. Like when you want your fighter at level 10 to start taking up sorcery. Gradually you have to be able to switch those 10 fighter levels and swap them for wizard levels if you want the guy not to suck.
Though losing levels has a couple of problems.
-Hit points, assuming you roll for them, easily solved by just having static amounts based on hit dice
-Skill points a bit tougher to solve, seeing as you'd have to remember where people allocated their skill points to remove a level. And I'm not sure what to do about this one.
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:17 pm

> That is not a reason to like level drain, that is yet another reason to dislike crappy classes and/or crappy levels in a class (not to mention crappy prestige class requirements).

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of base classes and qualifying.
WotC has pretty much abandoned any pretext of any of the classes actually representing a specific character concept (except the druid and monk). Except that player characters have much more in mind at first level than just being some generic 'fighter' or 'wizard'.
Even with completely cake prestige classes to qualify for like the Contemplative, waiting so many levels to get into a PrC is dumb IMO. Really dumb. I had a specific character vision a long time before that and making me slog through so many adventures before I actually get abilities that specifically define my character concept is insulting and frustrating.
I honestly think that even the advanced classes in d20 Modern ask too much of you to qualify for. Like, if you have the advanced requirements at level one (this means that BAB and skill rank requirements need to be lowered), you should be able to take that goddamn class. I need to take 3 levels in charismatic hero before I can become a hostage negotiator? WTF? I need to take 3 levels in strong hero before I can become a soldier? I never knew that my uncle that hardcore. Why didn't someone tell me these things?
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User3
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by User3 » Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:06 pm

guess what, Lago.
nobody ... and I mean NOBODY plays that way. Yeah, it's RAW legal. But seriously, let's hear one person whose gaming group allows volunteer level loss of their characters and subsequent build restructuring in this manner. That's why this discussion is "undiluted ass".
We're listening for volunteers people! Anybody?
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Neeek
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Neeek » Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:11 pm

> Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1108245986[/unixtime]]guess what, Lago.
> nobody ... and I mean NOBODY plays that way. Yeah, it's RAW legal. But seriously, let's hear one person whose gaming group allows volunteer level loss of their characters and subsequent build restructuring in this manner. That's why this discussion is "undiluted ass".
> We're listening for volunteers people! Anybody?

I would assume that anyone who would consider it has already fixed the problem by not having silly prereqs for the PrCs in the first place, allowing them to not need to bother with the suck-and-buy technique.
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Murtak
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Murtak » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:05 pm

> Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1108243052[/unixtime]]Even with completely cake prestige classes to qualify for like the Contemplative, waiting so many levels to get into a PrC is dumb IMO. Really dumb. I had a specific character vision a long time before that and making me slog through so many adventures before I actually get abilities that specifically define my character concept is insulting and frustrating.

I can see three reasons for prerequisites on classes
1: The class hands out powers you do not want to exist before a certain level. For example if you think Fly is fine at 5th or 6th level then a prestigae class should not allow you to get it earlier (or maybe one level earlier).
2: The class hands out abilities that build on other powers abilities. For example, if a class gives you great cleave it is fine to have that class have cleave as a prerequisite.
3: The class focuses on a narrow area. For example I have no problem with the assassin class requiring hide and move silently as prerequisites or the 3.5 incantatrix having spellcraft as a prerequisite. An assassin may get by without disguise or sneak attack but hide/move silently is essential for the signature assassin ability to work. Likewise the incantatrix needs spellcraft checks for the metamagic ability.
The other types of prerequisites are just silly. Blowing feats like endurance to "balance" abilities that are too strong does not work. Membership prerequisites are silly and should just be open to all comers who manage to join the guild, order or coven by displaying appropriate abilities. And then of course there are the fun combinations of all of the above where a too-powerful class is supposedly balanced because it requires cross-class skill ranks, endurance, toughness and some caster levels. 2 Books later we just join prestige class A for 2 levels (which has identical requirements), take the endurance replacement which does not suck anymore and reap the reward twice, without paying the cost once.
Mostly I am too lazy to change everything around in my campaigns, but if I had the time pretty much all of my prestige classes would have requirements like:
- able to cast arcane spells
- hide 4 ranks
- move silently 4 ranks
- sleight of hand 4 ranks
(in this case for something like the arcane trickster)
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by RandomCasualty » Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:02 am

If you want a PrC that you can qualify for at 3rd level, you might as well just make it a base class.
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Murtak
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Murtak » Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:16 am

Base class, prestige class, it doesn't really matter what label you slap on it. Some classes you can not put into the standard base class format though, such as those that continue caster progression or that build on on other abilities (say, the whirlwind attack master).
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by RandomCasualty » Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:36 am

Well what I'm saying is that if your'e going to have PrCs so early, you might as well just not build off base classes at all. Just make your own 20 level arcane trickster progression for instance.
If the argument is "why wait till level 6?" then another argument "why wait till level 3?" can also be made.
Also, allows you to have a mystic theurge or whatever that doesn't run out of levels. Thing that always bothered me about PrCs like that is that they only had 10 levels. I'd rather just see them made into legitimate 20 level core classes.
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Murtak
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Murtak » Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:40 am

Oh, if you happen to have players that want to go with a sneaky backstabbing caster guy from 1 to 20 that would be the way to go. Me I tend to get by with mixing a couple of classes just fine and so I don't see the need to design a class for every character. After all having 4 base and 4 prestige classes that people can mix and match is much less design work then having 50 base classes.
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:58 am

> Well what I'm saying is that if your'e going to have PrCs so early, you might as well just not build off base classes at all. Just make your own 20 level arcane trickster progression for instance.
> If the argument is "why wait till level 6?" then another argument "why wait till level 3?" can also be made.
> Also, allows you to have a mystic theurge or whatever that doesn't run out of levels. Thing that always bothered me about PrCs like that is that they only had 10 levels. I'd rather just see them made into legitimate 20 level core classes.

I agree with all of this.
In Final Fantasy V and Final Fantasy Tactics, the game doesn't go to pot just because you qualify for a lot of jobs early (either through power levelling or hacking); it does become easier, since some ability sets just synergize and the calculator is just completely broke, but no one proved that the system of having all classes available to you at once is unbalancing.
I think Dungeons and Dragons have moved past the crappy old days. I think this is why Final Fantasy XI infuriated me so much is because it's packed with empty levels and you have to jump through a thousand hurtles just to get the job you want.
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Sma
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Sma » Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:09 am

> guess what, Lago.
> nobody ... and I mean NOBODY plays that way. Yeah, it's RAW legal. But seriously, let's hear one person whose gaming group allows volunteer level loss of their characters and subsequent build restructuring in this manner. That's why this discussion is "undiluted ass".
> We're listening for volunteers people! Anybody?

I´ll volunteer. While this never happened, because I´m heavy on warning about bad classes/class-combos´s, I see no reason to have a player who sucked for a couple of levels, keep on sucking.
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User3
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by User3 » Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:18 am

> Sma at [unixtime wrote:1108271340[/unixtime]]

> > guess what, Lago.
> > nobody ... and I mean NOBODY plays that way. Yeah, it's RAW legal. But seriously, let's hear one person whose gaming group allows volunteer level loss of their characters and subsequent build restructuring in this manner. That's why this discussion is "undiluted ass".
> > We're listening for volunteers people! Anybody?

> I´ll volunteer. While this never happened, because I´m heavy on warning about bad classes/class-combos´s, I see no reason to have a player who sucked for a couple of levels, keep on sucking.

Does that make me the only one who has actually used this in a campaign? I played a Demonologist/Eldritch master a while back using the level loss 'bug.'
All cleric, wizard, and demonologist spells up to 7th level spontaniously cast at character level 13 was fun (+Summon IX), but given the tiny number per day not terribly broken.
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Sir Neil
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Sir Neil » Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:34 pm

> Guest wrote:nobody ... and I mean NOBODY plays that way. Yeah, it's RAW legal. But seriously, let's hear one person whose gaming group allows volunteer level loss of their characters and subsequent build restructuring in this manner.

In that specific manner? No.
Just up and redoing the character sheet? Hell yeah.
You aren't coming to my table to follow arbitrary rules written by people bad at math, that's why you go to H&R Block. You're here to have fun. If your character is not-fun*, then we need to do something about it.
*I have no shit seen players try and run a half-celestial cleric2/bard2.

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PhoneLobster
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by PhoneLobster » Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:35 am

Some posts here seem to be working towards a sort of, "heck why not just drop prestige class requirements and let people take the prestige classes from level one".
Well in response to that I say this, I thought of doing it as an experimental house rule once upon a time.
I decided it would be a bad idea, because if all (or most) prestige classes were simply base classes there would be far too much opportunity for my players to choose absolutely ass base classes.
Even if the relax of requirements was just used for increased cherry picking it has also opened up a significantly greater opportunity to make multi classed characters that completely fail on synergy (and I argue that this far outweighs the improved potential for enhanced synergy)
Yeah anyway, seems to me like anything that involves existing prestige classes is asking for trouble.
Though if you do custom prestige classes like Frank and others then I don't see why the hell characters shouldn't have them from the get go.
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Username17
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Username17 » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:06 pm

Indeed, the way things are currently set up, the BAB limits of Cavalier have the very useful effect of reducing the number of Wizards who jump right into Cavalier and end up sucking. The minimum spellcasting requirements of Alienist keep the occassional Rogue from deciding to forgo sneak attack in exchange for low level shitty spells out of Alienist.
But... the fact is that Fighter and Wizard levels are still there. If you decide to take up poking people with a sword from horse back as a 5th level Wizard, something has got to give. If you decide to start casting spells as your primary life path after you've already endured 8 levels of Rogue - something isn't going to be appropriate to your level when you start doing it.
It's not actually important whether people are doing it out of shitty core classes or shitty prestige classes. The fact is that a very small minority of multiclassed chasis are funcitonal - and that's a huge problem.
You can't really address that issue with prereqs, unless you give out scaling prereqs to all the classes (sorry, you're 11th level and have a BAB of +5 - you can't take Fighter Levels any more).
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by RandomCasualty » Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:20 pm

> PhoneLobster at [unixtime wrote:1108380945[/unixtime]]
> Though if you do custom prestige classes like Frank and others then I don't see why the hell characters shouldn't have them from the get go.

I'm thinking this is sadly probably the best way to go. In fact, it's probably most balanced to set up something where you just have a custom core class for everyone. Though in effect, that would really look more like a classless system than anything.
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Maj
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Maj » Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:59 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:Though if you do custom prestige classes like Frank and others then I don't see why the hell characters shouldn't have them from the get go.

Exactly.
Some downsides I've noticed:
The classes are sometimes so specifically written that sharing them is pointless because no one will understand the character you wrote them for.
The same reason prevents recycling.
You tend to front-load because you want certain abilities now.
Sometimes your character starts going in a direction that's not part of the class you wrote up at the beginning of the game.
Abilities are worth different values if they are too early or too late in the game. Giving a character teleport without Error at will is almost flavor text if she's 20th level, but potentially crippling if she's 9th level.
But some good points (they are pretty decent benefits):
You get what you want.
You don't suck (hopefully - this depends on a good DM).
You don't have to spend hours looking through all the books trying to find the greatest min/max potential for your character (hopefully, it's built in).
Screw prereqs.
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MrWaeseL
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by MrWaeseL » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:45 am

Another problem is that some players don't want to be that creative.
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Murtak
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Murtak » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:07 pm

Which is why you got the current system of mix'n match classes. The basic principle is sound enough:
Have a decent amount of classes that players can mix and match to get their class of choice. Given enough classes you should be able to make almost any concept work, even if some specific multiclass combinations don't work well.
Of course the power levels of the various classes are vastly different, multiclassing casters does not work and prestige class implemention is often horrible. Not to mention the huge amount of classes that should really cram their abilities into 3 levels but got expanded to 10 or 20 levels because "that's how long classes are".
However the principle works. If you would really like to write an individual class per player but don't have the time then you can probably get by with a certain amount of generic classes, some feats to add customization and maybe some minor individual fixes. And in this regard the huge amount of DnD books is rather helpful in my opinion. It is usually easier to rewrite some badly implemented classes and prestige classes than it is to make up whole class concepts.
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Maj
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Maj » Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:37 pm

> Mr. Waesel wrote:Another problem is that some players don't want to be that creative.

Pardon me... But it takes creativity? I thought it was the same process as choosing your class. Only rather than having a list of 10 classes you have to optimize between, you have one class with all the class features you're hunting in the 10 different classes.
I mean, my last class involved the DM saying, "You have natural weapons. Do you want a class feature that improves their damage? OK. You fly. Would you like something that increases your maneuverability? OK. You breathe fire. Do you want your breath to suck because you're not able to gain racial HD? No? OK. Good. What size HD do you want? What saves would you like? Skill points? BAB? (etc, etc)"
Creativity is when you look at your character and think up an ability that you can't find anywhere. I can - and do - do that, too, but that's not what I'm telling people they should be doing. You basically treat all the classes in the book as lists of special abilities, sticking together the ones that are useful and non-sucky, and throwing out the rest.
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The_Hanged_Man
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by The_Hanged_Man » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:24 pm

I see what you're saying, but I agree w/ Mr. Weasel. It's the difference between having to shop for something, which can take some time, and making it yourself, which takes time and some more creativity to actually do it. For instance, when I want pie, I havethe choice pf baking my own pie, or buying one. For me, byuing one is a complicated process involving calling Costco, driving it Marie Callendars and World o' Pies, and walking over to International Bakeries. It takes some time, but it's just a matter of browsing, no creativity required. Baking my own pie involves a lot more out of me, I've got to figure out what sort of crust, then filling, then decide if I want canned or homemade filling, and so on.
I love pie.
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Username17
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by Username17 » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:56 pm

I usually make pecan pie, which is a process that involves making the goo that you're going to suspend the nuts in (which is mostly brown sugar and dark corn syrup, honestly - the extra flour, eggs, butter, molasses, vanilla extract, and baking powder are in there to fine-tune texture and flavor mostly - the vast majority of the goo is just sugar). Then you make yourself a pie crust, which is basically just flour, milk, butter, and baking power - it's not much different from biscuit dough.
And then when you put the shell into the pie tin, you pour in a bunch of pecans such that the pile just about reaches the top of the tin, and then you pour in the goo to fill it out the rest of the way. Then you put a few more pecans in there to make sure that there aren't any major gaps in the nuts. And finally you shove it into an oven at 350 for about an hour.
Pie is really good. Especially when your nut pies are mostly nut, instead of a thin layer of nut on top of a pile of sugar like they try to pass off on you in restaraunts.
---
Yes, you could have a game in which stuff like BAB was constant and all the classes were freely multiclassable and fair from 1st level out to 20th. D&D is actually fairly close to that system in many respects. But actually making things like that would still require huge amounts of overhauling of the system, and many times your players just won't go for it.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: A Curious Defense of the Difference Engine

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Post by RandomCasualty » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:50 pm

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1108493794[/unixtime]]
> Yes, you could have a game in which stuff like BAB was constant and all the classes were freely multiclassable and fair from 1st level out to 20th. D&D is actually fairly close to that system in many respects. But actually making things like that would still require huge amounts of overhauling of the system, and many times your players just won't go for it.

I don't think it's even possible to have balanced free multiclassing. Not with the current prestige class, base class set up. The problem is there are just too many classes, and the problem is entirely with synergy, or lack thereof.
It's possible if you eliminate ability scores maybe, and just have a finite list of base classes which you rigorously balanced in most combinations, but things would look really weird and you'd need a ton of tables and variables to control everything.
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