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Orion
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Post by Orion » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:11 am

I must admit I'm very curious what AcidBlades would have done with elves. And a little curious about halflings too. No interest in the mechanics, just the flavor gloss. I mean, the dwarf writeup was so impressively gonzo that it couldn't help accidentally have some neat ideas. I personally think fundamentally altering your nature and your magical abilities by trimming your beard is kind of cool, and also kind of hilarious.
Incidentally, PL, I believe the intention was that any dwarf character can roll out with any beard package. They instinctively know their maximum beard length, and the bard levels are defined as fractions (75%, 50%, etc.) of their personal max length.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:11 am

The most amazing part to me was the author referring to his rewrite of Dwarves as part-fungus symbiotic Giant-parasites that turn to stone in sunlight and get drunk on pickled fetus juice as "Fresh, yet familiar".
I would have accepted "Woah, went a bit wild there, not sure what I was drinking last night" as an explanation, but apparently that was what the author assumed was up with Gimli all along. Although the idea of shaving captured Dwarves and leaving them to turn to stone does lead to some cool imagery.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:31 am

> Orion wrote:PL, I believe the intention was that any dwarf character can roll out with any beard package. They instinctively know their maximum beard length, and the bard levels are defined as fractions (75%, 50%, etc.) of their personal max length.

"bard levels"?
But seriously. It's not written correctly to make that clear, at no point did he actually attempt to make it clear after it was brought up and that makes absolutely zero sense as a mechanic to match the written fluff on how and why the beards work the way they do.
Which is to say, it's exactly like everything else in the write up, and it could very well work that way and this guy's INCREDIBLY poor rules/fluff text might be the only thing stopping us from ever really knowing for sure.
In other news, any chance any of the fluff had of being any good was constantly undermined by the rest of the fluff dwarves, rather explicitly, aren't a smorgasboard of options you get to pick from until you get to the various metallic sub types. It's presented as one whole write up and up to those metallic sub types you get to have ALL the bad and the crazy as well as whatever one random half concept you like.
Except being in the minority of one percent who violently burrow into the anuses of live screaming giants so their family can move into the rotting corpse. You may or may not fall into that part of the pre-sub type fluff. Knowing this guy you probably get to roll for the 1%.
Still, you get to totally be part of the same group as THOSE guys regardless and have to play in a campaign where those guys and their activities might get mentioned and where trying to impress those guys by burrowing into a live giant's anus is a clearly intended potential adventure hook. You don't get to just pick the fungus beards (which actually are pretty shit fluff anyway) and walk away.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:26 pm

> PhoneLobster wrote:You don't get to just pick the fungus beards (which actually are pretty shit fluff anyway) and walk away.

Uh... yeah, I totally do. Because I'm not playing with AcidBlades.
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AcidBlades
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Post by AcidBlades » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:37 pm

It's not like I'm just going to give up the idea of giving the Dwarf some unique racial mechanics, along with the Elf n' stuff. I'm just not going to do it like I did there. Something a tad bit more interesting, while not being finnicky.
But I'll probably won't do it until I get a few years experience under my belt. I simply bit off more than I could chew. Still at least some of you appreciated some of my ideas. Not that I demand that or anything. I just like to know if my efforts are worth it.
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Post by PhoneLobster » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:22 pm

> Orion wrote:Uh... yeah, I totally do. Because I'm not playing with AcidBlades.

> AcidBlades wrote:Still at least some of you appreciated some of my ideas. Not that I demand that or anything. I just like to know if my efforts are worth it.

And that selective praise has resulted in AcidBlades having the take home message that his efforts in net were "worth it", basically ok, and just need a little tweaking and experience.
That wasn't a good take home message to give him.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:35 pm

Why you gotta be such a hater?
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Post by PhoneLobster » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:36 pm

> Orion wrote:Why you gotta be such a hater?

Why you gotta strain your credibility so hard to find something to praise in THIS material?
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Sigil
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Post by Sigil » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:37 am

Acid, I've sort of feel the need to pipe in and echo Orion here. I'm not actually interested in your rules (They need work, to say the least), but your dwarf write up is bizarre enough that I'd actually be pretty interested in reading a similar write ups for other races.
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Post by AcidBlades » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:36 am

> Sigil wrote:Acid, I've sort of feel the need to pipe in and echo Orion here. I'm not actually interested in your rules (They need work, to say the least), but your dwarf write up is bizarre enough that I'd actually be pretty interested in reading a similar write ups for other races.

Very well then. I shall provide an Elf right-up. Unsure it'll be as good as the dwarf one though.
Elves are Fey Wind spirits that are often times in league, and sometimes at war with various kinds of Gnomes (Fey Earth spirits) and Pixies (Generic Fey). These folk are generally as vertical as the dwarf, and as horizontal as a skeleton with some meat on it. Incredibly willful by defeault, yet despite this willfulness, they rarely possess a productive bone on their body and at best pursue intellectual careers and at worst rely on slave labor from children that they have kidnapped. Elves generally have little to no empathy. Those that do are considered to be mentally ill, but due to their lack of care in the world, they hardly see it as an issue. They tend to not create their own cultures, often times parasitically hitch-hiking onto various cultures, stealing and violently intruding into other's homes without any permission. Due to their connection to the Material plane, elves are rarely hindered by the arcane laws that they hinder the fey from messing about with the material world, and as such do anything they desire from the world.
Despite their desire for each one of them to be seen as unique. There is only 5 major kinds of Fey. Snow, Dark, Wood, Traveler and Aristocratic breeds that rarely intermingle due to immense levels of pain to breed only within their various castes. Many races generally find elves to be a nuisance, with the various elemental fey utterly despising them just for the fact that they are different from them. Humans are the more kind comparably, though the actual race is nearly reviled from lore and texts. The Elves rarely don their trademark ears and tiny frames, and instead adopt handsome human forms. With other races, this trick does not work on them due to the fact that their bloodlines are somehow connected to various magical bloodlines. Whereas humanity has evolved solely from evolution. Granted this evolution was speed up, but this lack of magic damns humanity to being the elves eternal play things.
Dark, Wood and Traveler elves have a deep need to steal anything that they do not possess. If they are incapable of possessing that object, they will go out of their way to destroy as soon as possible. This includes sentient beings, and a good deal of deaths in the world are simply due to elves being incredibly possessive and jealous over what they perceive to be theirs. Aristocratic elves are in particular very capable of suppressing this instinct, viewing only their corporeal forms as the only possessions that they require. Though they are the only type of elf that views death very seriously. Due to this lack of self-preservation instinct, elves rarely live beyond their 20th year. Though they are technically ageless. Wood elves merely possess land, anything inside of that territory is theirs, and anything that isn't doesn't belong to them.
Elven men are incapable of breeding with fey women but are generally rather fertile whenever it comes to any race that doesn't possess the blood of a giant such as Elves and Half-Giants. Elven women are capable of only breeding with other elven women. The women who give birth to elven spawn typically live twice as long as typical elves due to their need to govern a community of elven children. If an elf forms a community, then only these two women may produce children, and this is universal in all elf communities. Those who birth children within a community, are ex-communicated, though it is typical for a pair-bonded elf to send various gifts such as slaves, food and other panaceas. In the Dark Elf's case, a slave is ritualistically murdered as they devour upon any sentient humanoid that they could have. Along within some Dark Elf communities 1 per 10 Dark Elfsd4 dwarven slaves. Where they bask in their viscera and engage in debauched acts of various natures, but not solely sexual. Other sort of elves simply grant the lesbian couple a dried liver from one of their stocks. Although other sort of organs are gifted as well.
Elves reach sexual maturity within a year, and have the mental capacity of a grown human adult with less life experience. Within 10 days a elf female is fertilized, her belly will expand to the size of a 7 month old human pregnant woman. Then she will rest on soft ground, and lay her half-developed batch of developing elves cocooned in a thin-pinkish membrane into a soft patch of dirt, typically 12cm x 12 cm which is enough to fill in a typical bag of elf fetuses. This will bloom into a 5 feet tall "tree" which is covered in a thick, mossy array of flowers. Within 1 month. This tree would have bloomed and expelled all of the elves genetic information into the air. Within 3 days. The area around the tree will become so dense in elf powder that any creature within it, must pass a Fort save of 16 + 1/2 mother's Hitdice + mother's Con Mod or be sickened for 1 day plus be dealt with 1d6 WIS damage and 2d10 CHA damage per day. (This includes any elves that aren't within the elves subrace)
After the powder is densely packed, children already around within the physical maturity of a 5 year old human child will lay rested on the ground until the fog has cleared up. This usually results with 3d10 healthy elf children and 1d3 damaged elves of various physical and mental abnormalities. During this time, if the elf couple has not protected this area, then it would be a miracle for the elf children to survive as they are soon picked off from a variety of predators. Particularly Eagles, Bears, Wolves, Tigers and other predatory beast. As the tenderness of an elf child's meat is considered legendary in some cannibal cultures. Particularly of that of the Orcs. Even if the children are subsumed within an elf's clan, about only half of them will survive into adult hood. Half-Elven children, typically portray features and complexes familiar with the non-elven part of the coupling as elf genes are very repressed.
The blood of giants are toxic to elves, and are utterly venomous. Dealing 2d6 CON damage, if they do not devour the liver of any non-giant within days. This is the only known cure for the elf's infliction. Alcohol is also toxic to the elf, though they tend to not produce any symptoms of ill until a year or so. In which case they are dealt 1 CON and 1 WIS damage within every year. This also, is only capable of being healed from devouring a non-alcohol tainted liver. Due to this, elves typically lay claim upon non-dwarven children. Human and Halfling children are particularly valuable within elven currency standards, while Dwarven children are seen as a danger. A Human or Halfling child is worth 3 times more than any other child mostly due to them being generally more well behaved than any other races.
Elves diets are generally omnivorous. Capable of deep appreciation of various food-stuffs. Though the majority of elves have very peculiar diets and are repetitive and rather incurious of foods outside of their range. Due to this, elves rarely move. The only subset of elves that do move are the Traveller elf, and those enjoy the widest and most diverse sampling of food. Not only that, but they are even capable of consuming some forms of alcohol without getting poisoned such as alcohol derived from Potatos, Grapes and Olives. Milk of all kinds makes for a very sick elf, due to a lack of breat-feeding tradition. Dark Elves are the most likely to form carnivorous feeding habits, and resemble cats in how they treat their meals. They are also the only sort of elf that typically enjoys it whenever their meal is alive. Often injecting medicines that prolong the sentient's life until death grasps them. Then the rest of the meat is passed unto the slaves.
Slaves in Elven culture varies between them. Wood, Snow and Dark elves often abuse their slaves, toying with them emotionally by pretending to be the "good" kind of elf or simply outright assaulting them in every sense of the word. While Traveller elves typically see them as a temporary source of labor until they are devoured until they are stripped to the very bone. The death is often swift, yet painful. Aristocratic elves, or the "high elves" adapt to their native cultures. Generally more inclined towards seduction, and more socially acceptable forms of abuse.
Unlike most kinds of fey, elves rarely sweet the details and only the most egregious forms of offenses set them off. Seeking to unbind themselves from any sort of negative consequences, they generally tend to take slights well enough. Insulting an elf will mostly just make them laugh, even the most personal of insults will only trigger a slight irritation from within. They only seek vengeance whenever they are caught in a trap, and will often try to paint themselves as the victims. Due to their lack of respects for laws, they merely mimick traditions and values from other cultures and will try to invoke them. They have no standards at all, and nothing is too low for an elf. The only rule they follow is their very whims, and denying them their desires will rile up a great wind that bellows with a tremendous roar. At least until you dangle a shiny necklace that they fancy, or any other sort of trinkets.
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Snow elves are called such because they are the whitest of the bunch. While all elves have Caucasian features, these elves are truly Nordic. Differentiating them is their natural producing venom, which is potent in how it knocks out a foe. The poison itself deals 1d10 WIS damage, and deals 1d4 nonlethal damage. The pain from the poison is immense, and it is even more excruciating because that pain is mixed with pleasure. The target must make 2 consecutive Fort and a Will save of 10 + 1/2 HD + CHA mod or else they are addicted to the drug. These checks are made within a week, and they must pass both the Fort and Will save each. If they do not get a hit of the venon within a week. Then the victim will batter themselves with their own hands. Tearing away at their bodies, while they bite away chunks of both themselves and whatever victim that they are nearby. Though the victim often attacks in a frenzy, they are discriminating enough that they will inflict that pain unto the one that they are the most fond of. Pain is pleasurable to the victim of the poison and only straight-up knocking them out will cease their assault.
Snow elves are the least emotive sort of elf. Second only to the high/aristocratic elf. Due to this, their desires are much more easily smothered than other elves are, and they are deliberate in their actions than many of their kind. The most productive sort of elf, and the most likely to form their own society, as the cold harsh environment around them demands a certain sort of outlook on life. They are even capable of empathizing with their "clan" of sorts, but are extremely vengeful and touchy. They are touchy, hateful creatures that match only humans and how petty they can be. The only sort of elf that builds tightly built defenses around their children, but due the fact that they build their nests within such tight confines, only about 1d4 of their kind is alive within the year. The stillborn snow-elf's corpse is vile, disgusting. Immediately giving out a sickened condition for the rest of the day, along with immense levels of diarrhea and vomiting. These corpses are often sold to cabals of cannibals, lightly brightened up to a sunny, or dark coloring. This is believed to be a curse, and no level of evidence to the contrary will persuade them to believe otherwise. Those that perpetuate the "scientific" myth are hunted down and are made into slaves.
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Wood elves are feral and animalistic, a surprise to no one. These elves have immense enmity against gnomes and often engage in dense levels of warfare against them. The abuse against gnome prisoners are legendary to behold, and gnomes often give back in return. They never aim to kill their gnome foes, often times the wars are just straight up brawls. Which devolve into a mass arrays of sexual and physical abuse. Mutilation, humiliation and mental degeneration is the sole aim, and this diseased mentality is only further cemented as the years yearn on. The abuse towards other prisoners are about the same level, but not nearly as intense. As they prefer to kill who they abuse afterwards.
Their wrath and desire for violence is greatest of them all, and they deliberately torture animals and breed with them to create half-elven/beast hybrids. Permanently insane, yet intelligent and even capable of their own sort of empathy/sympathy that typical elves rarely possess. Yet they are horrid, stinking mutants all the same.
Wood elves are the least likely to keep slaves for labor, mostly keeping them for food and as toys. Often they will pit them in gladiatorial combats, and some might even arise to that of an honorary elf. Though the initiation ritual often involves mass one-sided evils against their own kind specifically. If they cannot manage to kill (with thorough abuse before hand) their relatives, then at the very least they can harvest delectable child organs. The minimum requirements involved 25 youngling livers. Only about 3 humans, 6 halflings, and 12 orcs managed to succeed in being honorary elves. Those that they recognize them as elves, even their fellows. Are torn apart and devoured alive.
The majority of Wood elves are unorganized, and sink into the very trees themselves. Trees that had an elf residing in them within a year, act as if they had plant growth cast on them. These elves demand 50' of space between their homes. Even if the tree is incapable of growing fruits, and the like within a year appropriate to the environment. Then they are able to do so. However any foliage around that tree immediately dries up within that radius. Wood elves typically murder each other, and they are the only kind of elf that keeps slaves of their own kind and gives the same treatment that they do to others that they do unto themselves.
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Dark elves have the very same Caucasian facial and bone structures, though their skin is charred black. The lightest dark elf is far darker than the darkest black humanoid. In fact, the dark elf is capable of sucking out the very light around them. Snuffing it out with once a day, much like the darkness spell. Dark Elves rarely wear skins that have not been involved in a long, arduous torture session with the leather of the sentient creature that the leather was abstracted from. Males are merely considered a higher form of slaves in the matriarchy and are solely kept as guards, prostitutes or manual labor. Though the men are often as vile and devious as the female. Though most elves are dilettantes at magic, these kind are particularly adept at necromancy. The magic that they use is what they create their underground, and even sometimes termite-hill like structures from the air. Carved entirely out of the necromantically enhanced skin of slaves, and law breakers. Faces are used as doorknobs with the keyhole typically located in the right-eye socket. Using metals or even wood or dirt in construction is highly offensive to this elf. And they ravish the offender until they are dead, and then which they eat the poor sod. Typically done at the same time. Bones are generally used as lesser construction meterial. Entire settlements have been capsized or even outright imploded due to the necromantic energies that reside inside of the carelessly crafted work done entirely by constantly starved slaves.
Complexes upon complexes are built entirely to satisfy the food demand that the dark elves demand, and due to how terribly efficient (in both senses of the word), a good chunk of the dark elf life is one of high levels of obesity. Slaves are unable to wear clothes, dark elf men are unleashed into the general populace where they herd out the weak and spread their seed to anything willing to copulate. This is not unlike many elf societies, what is truly unique about this kind of elf is simply due to how 95% of them used to live in this massive undercity. A city which had no recorded names, as it was enclosed deep into the earth, even below that of the undergrowth where fey, dark beasts lie. A peculiar, torturous sport involved the use of a spherical ball entirely made out of human skin. Nigh-on perfectly spherical lest the maker's skin is torn asunder, the ball is made to possess 100/- DR and 50 SR. Requiring the use of sacrificing of several scores of human slaves to create, and one mad Dark Elf wizard high on distilled dwarf spirits. Entire wars were fought for simply half a keg of the brew, where slaves, particularly dwarf ones. Were used as catapult ammunition. That is how the term football came to pass, as the ball was entirely construsted using the skins from the sole of demi-human's feet.
The nature of the sport went like this, there is a circle inside of circle. The outermost of the inner circle within the outermost circle was engolf in madd flames. The teams were sat upon each side entering into the fire to give a mad dash to the middle. Though most survived that trail, a few were caught in the flames. Typical as it were. Then the ball was fought. Trying to slam the hardened ball into as many players as they possible can. Unable to use any sort of weapon outside of that ball. One may only pass the ball. The scores were kept like this. Disabling a foe would acquire one point, outright killing them got 3 points. A penalty would mean that a wizard would cast telekinesis upon the foe and toss them to very flames. It was a simple, bloody game. Were the victor was tossed about to a band of smitten fangirls to be used as a toy and then tossed back into the ring. Only a few survivors made it out alive, and even rarer was when they got out into the field to survive again. Those that win a second time are considered legends, and are the highest pets reserved for the queen herself. Where then frequently mates with the victor, no matter the sex.
Once, the game went into a complete frenzy, as flames caught up unto the arena. Catching fire to the whole field, burning at least 45% of all dark elf population at the time. Then the fire spread throughout the city unceasingly, where even the "escape hatches" seemed to be jammed or at least inaccessible. Everyone in that city burned to death, but the structure of the fallen city remains as it once was. With nary a ghost, ghoul in sight. Now the Dark Elves are dwindling in number, being eaten by Dark Dwarves in the night and enslaved themselves.
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Traveler elves are the least violent kind of elf. Rarely keeping slaves for abuse, and merely pimping them out into the wild. They treat everything much like it was a drunken frenzy of whirlwind and flash. Running at speeds of a great alacrity of many men, halfling and dwarfs. Often trading various knick-knacks of the cursed, useful and broken to various men. They would pick up slaves from elves and other races. Where they are put to use as either objects to be traded, or for their services in many ways. Despite their wild abandon, even at a young age, the elf is kept in a constant mind-frame of those who are swindled and those who got what they need. This makes them aggressive, and frankly unlikely to really get a good deal due to their immense impatience in deals. They are called "Gift Giving Elves" for this very reason, and many find that their presence is a booni instead of a malus.
Traveler elves keep their young inside of a caravan, where they grow under the watchful eye of the "blue" mother. The "Red" mother is a marital and skilled warrior, while the blue is a druid, cleric of sorts that channel the divine fey gods to the aid of their children. Bestowing them a great deal of young, but also a great deal of various beasts and plagues that captures that young themselves. Due to their constant psychedelic haze, they are unable to keep themselves straight. Often fight for fun and murder without any remorse or thought into it. They devour whatever they can, and gives absolutely no fucks about anything outside of their clan, which they are generally loyal to. Even a Geas cannot break the loyality of a Traveler elf to his fellows.
They are also rather racist, viewing all non-traveler elves as lessers and other races as simply glorified holes for which they would fill their blades with. Even cannibalism of their own brothers is not something that is not beneath them, but they do find the presence of their clan better than they would of any other sort of creature. Keeping this elf inside of a cage will cause the Traveller elf to spasm until they are left to graze an open field. Where they will eat the dirt in a strange racial ritual that they engage in. No matter what the content of said dirt is, they will chew it until it is inside of their bellies unto which they march about without even thinking about to murder who put them inside the cage in the first place. Though putting them inside confinement will unleash a wrath matching that of the Cold and Wood Elves.
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High or Aristocratic elves have an immense need to be better than everyone else at everything that they do. Due to this, they often merely pour into what is the flash of the bomb but never anything particularly explodey. Any expert would be able to view this elf as a sham, yet the plebians believe in their skill far more than anyone else. The only way to combat this sort of elf is with the wisdom of one's craft and style. These elves seek only to mate and capture those who are the most beautiful and despise everyone else as a lesser while needing their attention and presence, lest they get into a fit of solemn contemplation. Irredeemably narcissistic to a fault, yet unlike other elves these kind demand attention and hate it whenever someone else gets more than they do. Utterly incapable of crafting their own culture, they seek to mimic others. These elves despise pain, disgusting things and will devise any means to get someone else to remove them. Though the nature of "disgusting things" is something decided by culture. So these sort may be warriors who despise cleanliness, yet no matter what style they rock. They are merely swindlers, despite their "high" claim. These are the weakest elf. Pitiable in many ways, outside of the abuse they heep unto their partner. These elves rarely make it for more than 5 years until someone better than them kills them.
Last edited by AcidBlades on Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:01 pm

It's been, what 5 days now? 5 Days of what I interpret to be shocked silence.
I for one have been waiting for Orion or Sigil to pop in here, since they got what they asked for, and selectively praise it to encourage this guy further.
Or did they not expect to get Child Slaving LoL-Psycho-Murder-Rape Elves.
Because that was what I was pretty much expecting.
It's a pity, I wanted to see their further encouragement unalloyed by my cynical criticism.
Maybe they just can't pick out the high points to praise.
Me? I like the bits where it departs from (or irrelevantly continues with) loving obsession with rapey-murdery-slavery and just goes bug fuck insane on alternating internal contradiction.
Like the male elves can't breed with fey (which elves are), but can breed with non-giant races... like... elves (which are fey), but female elves can only breed with female elves (which means male elves can't breed with them).
Or the bit where wood elves are in a "dense" war with gnomes, committing "legendary" atrocities on prisoners (who, thanks to the wording, as prisoners, commit them back), but really it's only a brawl and no one is meant to be killed, well actually it's physical and sexual abuse rather than war, well actually its mutilation and mental destruction, well actually they always kill them.
Or the bit where entire Gladiatorial Combats (rather than, oh, I don't know, combatants) can become honorary wood elves. An odd thing to become since the next paragraph tells you that wood elves treat each other the same as they treat other races and still enslave and murder wood elves anyway so what is the fucking point if an ongoing gladiatorial brawl becomes an official wood elf? It's still a murder-slave, I guess it just might get to be mayor while still being murder-slaved.
I could go on. The crazy is as "Dense" as wood elf warfare in this shit.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AcidBlades
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Post by AcidBlades » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:14 pm

To be fair, on the whole "Brawl" issue. I meant it to mean that they don't really tend to use weapons and instead to punch the living crap out of each other with their bare hands.
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Post by PhoneLobster » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:51 am

> AcidBlades wrote:To be fair, on the whole "Brawl" issue. I meant it to mean that they don't really tend to use weapons and instead to punch the living crap out of each other with their bare hands.

THAT JUST RAISES FURTHER QUESTIONS.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:53 am

> A she-dwarf with a still-born baby will be incredibly drunk, as the corpse of the fetus will desolve into alcohol.

As the father of a stillborn child years ago I just stopped the dwarf section there.
You have some strange way of thinking Acid that makes Prak and I look like Frank and Keith in comparison.
Why are you wasting time with game stats when you could be writing a novelette?
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Last edited by JonSetanta on Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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