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## Old Nifty and Nazism disguised as "The Monk Rant"

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SunTzuWarmaster
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### Old Nifty and Nazism disguised as "The Monk Rant"

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Post by SunTzuWarmaster » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:06 pm

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Moved to MPSIMS and renamed, as it really has very little to do with why monks suck.
[/TGFBS]
There used to be a giant rant on why monks suck.
I can't find it on the internets anywhere (been looking for 30 minutes).
Anyone have a copy or link?
Last edited by SunTzuWarmaster on Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:13 pm

Are you looking for the old 3e version?
-Username17
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shau
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Post by shau » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:12 pm

Well that was sorta depressing. How come no one goes to Nifty anymore? I noticed the last post in the game room was March 2008.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:41 pm

> shau wrote:Well that was sorta depressing. How come no one goes to Nifty anymore? I noticed the last post in the game room was March 2008.

I quit because at the time one of the moderators was a neo-Nazi. As in "wants to put Jews and Liberals into camps" not "enforces mod policies I don't agree with." There was a general falling out where it came to light that people with sufficient post counts were exempt from the rules, a fact that became plainly obvious when the personal attacks escalated to consistent harassment for people who had perceived atheist/liberal/homosexual/communist/gypsy ties with no actual repercussions.
I made a stink about it and was told straight by Maj that it was "OK" because the same rule immunity applied to me as well. I responded that it was definitely not OK because it applied to me. That by having the same protections in the system that every post I made was a tacit endorsement of National Socialism and that I could not do it.
My last argument with Medesha over there was when she told me that t was very "mean" of me to take my ball and go home just because I couldn't get my way over Arturick. That threatening to leave the board if he wasn't punished was a dirty tactic. I responded that they had long past any line I could ever endorse and that I was leaving even if they changed direction immediately. That I wasn't leaving unless they turned their back on Arty - that I was leaving and they should turn their back on Arty. After that bullshit, Amber literally told me that she wouldn't be my friend any more unless I made friends with Arty despite him wanting to ship me, Crissa, and Lago off to death camps in Poland - and we haven't been friends since.
-Username17
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:57 pm

> Frank wrote:I made a stink about it and was told straight by Maj that it was "OK" because the same rule immunity applied to me as well. I responded that it was definitely not OK because it applied to me. That by having the same protections in the system that every post I made was a tacit endorsement of National Socialism and that I could not do it.

I never thought that what happened was OK. Not ever. What happened was a total failure on the part of two moderators, and I when I came back and saw how things were handled, I was livid.
But 'immunity' did apply to a few people on the boards who contributed more to discussions than others. We've changed the warning policy since then and it's worked quite well - none of the mods have felt the need to give quarter to some while sparing others for the sake of discussion.

> shau wrote:Well that was sorta depressing. How come no one goes to Nifty anymore? I noticed the last post in the game room was March 2008.

Because - like the Gaming Den - we've moved.
Last edited by Maj on Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:52 pm

Ooh, real Nazis. Are we talking about Boy Scout camps?

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:09 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:After that bullshit, Amber literally told me that she wouldn't be my friend any more unless I made friends with Arty despite him wanting to ship me, Crissa, and Lago off to death camps in Poland - and we haven't been friends since.
> -Username17

But Frank, I loooooooves summer camp. Why you gotta do that?
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:40 pm

> Psychic Robot wrote:Ooh, real Nazis. Are we talking about Boy Scout camps?

Sure.
-Username17
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:19 am

Hey, that's the symbol they used on that one episode of Justice League where the guy went back in time with a laptop and almost took over the world.
EDIT: Anyway, monks suck. Flurry of misses, weak HD, ridiculous MAD, crappy/nonsensical class features, Da'Vane is an idiot, etc.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:41 am

Nifty is pretty dead now though. A few people post here and there, but for the most part there isn't anything going on.
And Arturick, I haven't seen for years. I literally don't have anything nice to say about him at all, but I cut him some slack because from what I've heard from others and what I've observed in his behavior, his personal demons would probably rape the shit out of my personal demons. And for all I know, he's a cool guy now, I haven't seen him for years.
And the whole crap when that happened is about the time when I literally decided that I never wanted to be the moderator of anything, because when I get pissed, I don't give a fuck about the rules. And that's not a good habit for people in power.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:47 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:

> > Psychic Robot wrote:Ooh, real Nazis. Are we talking about Boy Scout camps?

> Sure.
> (pic)

I see nothing wrong with the image, just a bunch of strapping young American lads...
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Fuchs
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Post by Fuchs » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:33 am

Judging from the words on the flags, those are not american. At least I don't know an american keyboard that even has the letter "ü" on it.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:47 am

> Count wrote:I literally don't have anything nice to say about him at all, but I cut him some slack because from what I've heard from others and what I've observed in his behavior, his personal demons would probably rape the shit out of my personal demons.

From what I've heard, possibly literally.
In general, I'm opposed to Godwinning things because it stifles debate and turns things into a history lesson that is usually marred by internet toughguys who don't actually know any history. People begin atrocity comparisons by weird, self serving metrics that are often done entirely illegitimately. So when people say things like "Your tax policy/ spending program / gun regulations / road management legislation / whatever remind me of what Hitler did in 193X..." I tend to roll my eyes. The Nazis were in full control of the second or third most powerful nation on the planet for 10 years, they had a lot of policies. Also a lot of their policies changed as they thrashed around and abandoned tactics to adopt new tactics in response to stimuli. Their gun control measures for example were incredibly schizophrenic - at times taking guns away and at other times literally handing them out to any white person that showed up.
However, I think there's an excuse for calling the Hitler analogy when the plan being discussed is literally a "final solution" where all the unionists, homosexuals, atheists, communists, Jews, liberals, Muslims, and Hindus get shipped off to labor camps where they will be kept isolated from society and worked until they repent or die. That's not some sort of ambiguous national maintenance thing with lots of parallels in lots of countries that were nice places. That literally is just one movement in the modern era, and it actually is straight out of the Nazi playbook.
-Username17
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:03 am

> Their gun control measures for example were incredibly schizophrenic - at times taking guns away and at other times literally handing them out to any white person that showed up.

Minor nitpick: you're thinking of dissociative identity disorder, not schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is about hallucinations and delusions.
THE MORE YOU KNOW!
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Draco_Argentum
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Post by Draco_Argentum » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:43 am

> Maj wrote:I never thought that what happened was OK. Not ever. What happened was a total failure on the part of two moderators, and I when I came back and saw how things were handled, I was livid.

Bloody glad that explosion occurred while I was asleep/at uni.
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MartinHarper
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Post by MartinHarper » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:08 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:That literally is just one movement in the modern era, and it actually is straight out of the Nazi playbook.

Really? I thought concentration camps were used by several countries over the last couple of centuries.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:31 pm

Boer War has concentration camps; I'm not sure if any wars before it had them as well.
Hmm; what makes a better caption for British Concentration Camps:
"Beating the Nazis to the punch by 40 years by imprisoning South African
Dutch civilians. Wasn’t Lord Kitchener awesome! "
or
"Living conditions are only as bad as Glasgow!"
(turn around time on that was... like 10-20 minutes, so they're rough, w/e)
The second one is better visually, but the first communicates more. So it's somewhere near the middle, but push comes to shove, I prefer the second one.
This fits better:
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
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Torko
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Post by Torko » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:09 am

Monks are worse than the Holocaust.
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norms29
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Post by norms29 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:28 am

> MartinHarper wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote:That literally is just one movement in the modern era, and it actually is straight out of the Nazi playbook.

> Really? I thought concentration camps were used by several countries over the last couple of centuries.

Concentration camps, as in what the constituent words of that phrase describe, have seen that level of widespread use, yes.
"Concentration" Camps, as in the euphamisim for Death Camps, were infact unique to the Nazi's.
the Nazi's had actual concentration camps as well, but when most people say "concentration camp" they mean death camp, which becomes irksome when discussing another nation which had actual concentration camps, and the drone you're talking to becomes confused.

> JE wrote:Boer War has concentration camps; I'm not sure if any wars before it had them as well.

The Spanish used them in the Cuban war of independance in 1897. I'm fairly sure that was the first time.
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Crissa
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Post by Crissa » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:30 am

The US had camps holding opposing forces and sympathizers in the Civil War.
-Crissa
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:32 am

Ah. So much for Monks.
.. unless anyone wants to discuss the plight of Tibet.
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norms29
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Post by norms29 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:03 am

> Crissa wrote:The US had camps holding opposing forces and sympathizers in the Civil War.
> -Crissa

Civilian sypathizers were mostly sent ordinary prisons,
and camps holding opposing focers are generally refered to as prisoner of war camps, and not considered concentration camps.
Although I did find one vague, uncited reference on wikipedia to the US putting Cheerokee into camps which could be classified as the Concetration variety in the 1830s, no details though
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:41 am

Of course, the best part about concentration camps is the systematic attempt at genocide. Labor camps are weaksauce.
Anyways, here's some rants about the monk:

> As to why they are weak, I think it's pretty self-evident that Monks aren't amazing in melee. They lack full BAB, they have such severe MAD that either their Str will be compromised or their AC will suck, and often both are the case anyway.
> Further, there isn't much you can do with monks that you couldn't do better as another class, or a series of other classes. They certainly aren't the best unarmed combatants. They aren't the fastest class, they aren't the most skillful class. So what are they? A big pile of suck. They may be better than the fighter. Honestly, as much as I hate fighters, I can't agree with that. fighters at least get to use decent weapons and armor. Which means they can get decent MAGIC weapons and armor.
> An argument I hear a lot is that Monks are a "secondary melee class". That's all fine and good, but unless Rogues(for example) they aren't really a primary *anything*. And "secondary" is being generous. They are worse in melee than all the core classes except Wizards and Sorcerers(and maybe Bards). That's not a secondary melee class. That's nigh-useless.
> Furthermore, what the monk actually gets in return is...good saves, some mostly useless abilities, some movement abilities, bad AC(that people often mistake for good AC), and no enchancements on his weapons. Yay.
> And none of that even starts to address the fact that the PHB monk class doesn't even begin to cover the myriad of unarmed combat archetypical characters from fantasy. Frankly, they should have just scrapped the monk and made the options a series of feats.

> It's not hate, it's fact. Monks are one of the weakest classes in the game because their class features contradict each other such as fast movement + flurry, follow no real pattern such as slow fall, and actively get in the way such as not being able to get enhancement to your fists meaning you miss all the time, not being able to get special properties to your fists which are an absolute requirement to do damage that matters... then if you go for a 'special monk weapon' you can hit sometimes, but no one cares past about level 4 or so because you're just lightly scratching whatever you hit with 1d6 + small number.
> Scorpion Kamas are an excellent example of WotC realizing finally they dropped the ball on Monks and since they couldn't change core, especially not so late they had to release 'patches' such as this item. Superior Unarmed Strike is another one. And it's from Tome of Battle, which is the de facto take 2 for melees. Regardless, the fact of the matter is mundanes are automatically significantly below par in core, and Monks just make this worse. Go outside core and you can start to fix them, however I believe the OP would just like to play his concept. Not jump through over 9,000 hoops just so he can do the things he is supposed to be able to do. Monk 1/Druid x is very simple and very straightforward conceptually and mechanically, thus allowing him to just play without needing to take weekly sessions at the local optimization dojo taught by me.
> Now, here's the thing. You are in a party. But what this actually means is that you need to pull your weight. Monks (single classed) simply cannot do this. They can look busy, they can miss a lot, and they can do low damage when they do hit. Even their unarmed damage is pretty low, it caps around 20 or so a hit and that's being generous. No one cares about 20 a hit at level 20, or level 15 (including Monk's belt) for that matter. So basically they're there to fill a 5' square and pretend to be useful. Alone, this would be a corpse. In a party, it's just a resource sink that will probably Polymorph itself into a corpse soon enough.

Not what you're looking for, I know, but still mildly amusing.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Roy
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Post by Roy » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:53 pm

Lol. I has been quoted.
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ZER0
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Post by ZER0 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:38 am

No matter where else this thread may go, just remember; any game is better if you get to kill some Nazis.

> Absentminded_Wizard wrote:

> > 4e PHB, p. 57 under "Target" (bolding mine) wrote:When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your team-mates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.

> Yes, according to 4e RAW, you are your own enemy.

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