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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:32 am

> Kaelik wrote:

> > CatharzGodfoot wrote:By my reading, cold immunity confers no ability to avoid piercing, bludgeoning, or suffocation damage. What am I missing?

> Do you see any abilities that do piercing/bludgeoning/suffocation damage?

Alas, no (although the detonate power probably should). My point is that, with an ice mage, it is better to give additional damage types than some kind of 'supercool deep freeze' power. When an icicle pierces you chest, it isn't the cold that kills you.

> Kaelik wrote:PS suffocation damage is not a thing.

Sorry, "damage from suffocation".
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:54 am

Ice craft items deal normal physical damage + extra cold damage so I don't know what you guys are talking about.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:31 am

> Dominicius wrote:Ice craft items deal normal physical damage + extra cold damage so I don't know what you guys are talking about.

Ice craft items are a piece of shit, and you are an idiot for thinking they matter at all.
How is the 1/2 Bab character with low Str with absolutely no bonus damage of any kind using his standard actions (full attacks? Ha?) with a spear going to matter?
What do you bring to the table with an Ice Craft Weapon that a commoner of the same level using a magic weapon doesn't also bring?
A CR 9 Frost Giant is immune to cold, so if we ignore the cold damage we get:
AC 21, 133 HP.
Now, being generous and assuming you level 9 Wintersmith has Str 10, he will be attacking at +7 for 2d6+3 damage.
You tell me how many rounds it takes you to kill the damn thing.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:51 am

Assuming level one, melee and an actually valid weapon... an extra 1d6 cold damage and the Ice Craft weapon is very likely going to be masterwork. So not a lot but enough and if you start throwing them you have the ability to do so without distance penalties.
Edit: That is not a fair test because you are ignoring the ability to cut through cold immunity and cold damage is the main shtick of this guy. Further you are ignoring the fact that items are now both huge. So let's take an Ice Crafted greatsword and raise it two sizes which is 4d6+3 damage +3d6 cold damage (half of which is negated). So we get about 22 damage with two attacks at range where you can replace your terribad str score with your Int score, so that AB jumps from +7 to +13. Finally, any attack that leaves the giant at 35 hp or less kills him instantly.
So I'd say it does pretty well, considering a starting Int of 17. But yea, at average the default Wintersmith is dealing 27~ damage per round to the giant so he will kill him in four rounds.
Last edited by Dominicius on Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:18 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:35 am

> Dominicius wrote:Assuming level one, melee and an actually valid weapon... an extra 1d6 cold damage and the Ice Craft weapon is very likely going to be masterwork. So not a lot but enough and if you start throwing them you have the ability to do so without distance penalties.

Assuming level 1 a commoner is a valid party member. No one is assuming level 1.

> Dominicius wrote:Edit: That is not a fair test because you are ignoring the ability to cut through cold immunity and cold damage is the main shtick of this guy.

Of course I am. We are explicitly talking about what would be the case if he didn't have the ability to penetrate cold damage.

> Dominicius wrote:Further you are ignoring the fact that items are now both huge. So let's take an Ice Crafted greatsword and raise it two sizes which is 4d6+3 damage +3d6 cold damage (half of which is negated). So we get about 22 damage with two attacks at range where you can replace your terribad str score with your Int score, so that AB jumps from +7 to +13. Finally, any attack that leaves the giant at 35 hp or less kills him instantly.

1) No, freeze doesn't apply, because he can't do cold damage.
2) No, he can't use a Huge Greatsword, because he is not personally Huge.
3) No, he can't use his int mod, because he has to be throwing the item, and since you take a -4 penalty for throwing a Greatsword, that cancels out.
So we are back to +7 for 2d6+3. I guess if he fires an arrow he can do more than that with the size thing, and better AB, but it's not clear at all that you expect him to be able to fire arrows as if from a larger bow than he can personally use, because by that logic, right from level 1 he just creates a "small" arrow (which, if it's an arrow for a small character, makes it like diminutive or something) and then fires it from a Colossal++++++++ bow, because fuck yeah, he just gets to decide the bow size, and then does 38d8 damage.
Also of course, you are dumb as shit, because item sizes are the same as creature sizes, so a Huge longbow is like a longbow for a Colossal+ creature.
So yes, the point being that your stupid Ice Craft weapons are always worse than using real abilities against things that take cold damage, and if we postulate not piercing immunity, the class can literally do zero things.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:38 am

> Kaelik wrote: 1) No, freeze doesn't apply, because he can't do cold damage.

Yes he can.

> 2) No, he can't use a Huge Greatsword, because he is not personally Huge.

Yes he can. Ice Craft items can be used regardless of size by the Wintersmith.

> 3) No, he can't use his int mod, because he has to be throwing the item, and since you take a -4 penalty for throwing a Greatsword, that cancels out.

No, he takes no penalty for throwing.

> and then fires it from a Colossal++++++++ bow, because fuck yeah, he just gets to decide the bow size, and then does 38d8 damage.

No he doesn't, because he can't actually craft a Colossal++++++++ bow.

> Also of course, you are dumb as shit, because item sizes are the same as creature sizes, so a Huge longbow is like a longbow for a Colossal+ creature.

A huge bow is a longbow for a Huge creature and a shortbow for a Gargantuan creature. That is all I give a shit about. The damage scaling can otherwise stay the same.
Last edited by Dominicius on Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:49 am

Yeah, if a bow is your size, it's a longbow. Just like if a sword is your size, it's a greatsword.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:36 pm

> Dominicius wrote:

> > Kaelik wrote: 1) No, freeze doesn't apply, because he can't do cold damage.

> Yes he can.

Your inability to follow the conversation is not amusing. We are talking about how he would fare if his ability to ignore cold immunity was removed.

> Dominicius wrote:Yes he can. Ice Craft items can be used regardless of size by the Wintersmith.

No he can't. There is no part of the Ice Craft item entry that overrides the rules for weapon use with respect to this.

> Dominicius wrote:No, he takes no penalty for throwing.

No he can't. There is no part of the Ice Craft item entry that overrides the rules for throwing weapon use with respect to this.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:59 pm

> Kaelik wrote:Your inability to follow the conversation is not amusing.

Good. Because I do not intend to follow it. You don't get to declare that the Wintersmith does not get access to one of his abilities because of derp so that you can have your argument.

> No he can't. There is no part of the Ice Craft item entry that overrides the rules for weapon use with respect to this.
> No he can't. There is no part of the Ice Craft item entry that overrides the rules for throwing weapon use with respect to this.

I made the class so it does what I intended it to do but I've added clarification for these two points.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:08 pm

> Dominicius wrote:Good. Because I do not intend to follow it. You don't get to declare that the Wintersmith does not get access to one of his abilities because of derp so that you can have your argument.

Hey dumb shit, yes we do. Someone else said that the ability to do cold damage to immunes should be taken away, and that if it was taken away, the class can just do other damage types.
We are in fact allowed to talk about what your class would be able to do without the ability to pierce cold immunity, IE, fuck all, in a discussion of whether or not he could do anything without that ability.

> I made the class so it does what I intended it to do but I've added clarification for these two points.

No, the class does what it says it does, and if you failed to write something required, then you failed at writing it, and it still doesn't have those abilities.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:30 pm

> Kaelik wrote:Hey dumb shit, yes we do. Someone else said that the ability to do cold damage to immunes should be taken away, and that if it was taken away, the class can just do other damage types.
> We are in fact allowed to talk about what your class would be able to do without the ability to pierce cold immunity, IE, fuck all, in a discussion of whether or not he could do anything without that ability.

That's nice. Except that I never agreed to participate in that discussion. So you can just talk about that with someone else, I do not give a shit who, just not me.

> No, the class does what it says it does, and if you failed to write something required, then you failed at writing it, and it still doesn't have those abilities.

I added a special note down at the bottom just for you.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:36 pm

> Dominicius wrote:That's nice. Except that I never agreed to participate in that discussion. So you can just talk about that with someone else, I do not give a shit who, just not me.

You agreed to participate in that discussion when you shoved your face into the conversation we were having about it.
You don't get to insert yourself into an ongoing conversation and then get upset when that conversation includes things you don't like.

> Dominicius wrote:I added a special note down at the bottom just for you.

Yeah, you also drastically edited the abilities, including copying my class.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:54 pm

The reason I entered the discussion is because people were saying that the class could not do slashing/piercing damage. Which was wrong.
Beyond that I do not give a crap if you think that the damage is not relevant in some nebulous dream world where the class based 80% around cold damage can't deal cold damage.
And yes I did copy some stuff. I kinda already established that I am doing this.
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Duke Flauros
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Post by Duke Flauros » Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:51 am

I have to say, I like the idea, but it's overpowered. As in stronger than world dominator (at dnd-wiki.org) overpowered.

> He also counts as proficient with any type of Ice Craft equipment and never suffers any penalties for wielding it, especially not size penalties or throw penalties.

So you can wield a colossal greatsword as a pixie with no size penalties?

> Cold Snap (Sp): As an immediate action you can deal 1d6+your level cold damage to a target within close range.

Save? DC? Autohit? Requires line of sight/effect? Can it freeze snow? Snap brittle structures? Weaken bricks?

> Freeze (Su): When a Wintersmith inflicts cold damage on any target, whether with his class abilities or another source of cold if the target is left at 5 hp or lower it becomes frozen similar to flesh to stone, except with ice. If not thawed then the target dies in ten minutes, to thaw a target you need a steady source of warmth similar to the heat in a desert, so a fireball won't cut it but if such a source is provided then the target will thaw after one minute. The remaining ice sculpture can be shattered by inflicting 1 point of damage on it but all equipment of the target will remain unharmed. The Wintersmith can also thaw a target instantly by touching it. The freeze threshold is increased by 5 for every point of Int mod or every level of the Wintersmith, whichever is less.

So at level 4, you can kill anything with less than 25 hp instantly.

> Summon Snow (Sp): As a standard action, the Wintersmith may make it snow in a 1 mile per level radius, in as wide or as small an area as you want. It starts off with an inch of snow, and goes up an inch every hour until you tell it to stop, the temperature also becomes cold. Snowy weather also no longer impairs your vision.

Waaaay OP for sixth level. With a bit of creativity, you could depopulate entire cities or even regions with this.

> Summon Blizzard (Sp): Works as Summon Snow but the wind speed raised to Hurricane and creates Heavy Snow that leaves one foot of snow per minute while the temperature is set to freezing. All creatures and objects in the radius take 1d6 points of cold damage every minute.

Xixecals are CR 36, and their dire winter only goes out to 1k feet.

> Ice Assassin (Sp): A Wintersmith can create an Ice Assassin over the course of one hour. The Ice Assassin has all the same stats and abilities as the Wintersmith, despite obviously being made of ice. It lacks all class features from the Wintersmith class that are granted at above 10th level, and all abilities from other classes that take more than a free action to activate. The Assassin obeys the Wintersmith completely via telepathy. The Assassin lasts for 8 hours and only one Assassin can be active at any time.

There's absolutely no way someone could abuse that. None at all.

> Black Ice (Sp): The ultimate art of frost magic creates ice so cold that even light is frozen when it touches it. Focusing for one full round action the Wintersmith can craft a single item out of Black Ice and attack with it should he wish it. Such an item can only be used by the Wintersmith or his Ice Assassin and lasts for only two minutes before shattering, during which time it is completely indestructible and radiates an intense frost out to 60 feet. Upon striking a target, the item shatters and the target is killed instantly. This is both a [Death] and a [Cold] effect. Those who resist this effect still suffer normal weapon damage but it is fully converted into cold damage. If dropped into water it is enough to freeze a sea, if hit upon the ground it can freeze the earth out to a 1000 miles. The Wintersmith can have only one item made of Black Ice at any given time. Ice Craft can now make colossal objects and all Ice Craft objects cut through any type of DR.

You can now fully freeze the world, in case there was anything left after chaincasting your souped up dire winter.
Niao! =^.^=

> Mike Mearls wrote:“In some ways, it was like we told people, ‘The right way to play guitar is to play thrash metal,’” “But there’s other ways to play guitar.” “D&D is like the wardrobe people go through to get to Narnia,” “If you walk through and there’s a McDonalds, it’s like —’this isn’t Narnia.’”

> Tom Lapille wrote:"As we look ahead, we are striving for clarity in both flavor and mechanics.""Our goal with most of the D&D Next rules is that they get out of the way of the action as much as possible."

> Mike Mearls wrote:"Look, no one at Wizards ever woke up one day and said 'Let's get rid of all of our fans and replace them.' That was never the intent."

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TarkisFlux
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Post by TarkisFlux » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:53 am

Lol - World Dominator.

> Duke Flauros wrote:

> > Summon Blizzard (Sp): Works as Summon Snow but the wind speed raised to Hurricane and creates Heavy Snow that leaves one foot of snow per minute while the temperature is set to freezing. All creatures and objects in the radius take 1d6 points of cold damage every minute.

> Xixecals are CR 36, and their dire winter only goes out to 1k feet.

References to Epic level creatures are inappropriate, because this is the den and the game stops at level 20 here. If you have an actual reason why this is bullshit, not just some comparison with an already bullshit monster, please place it here instead.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
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Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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Duke Flauros
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Post by Duke Flauros » Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:09 am

> TarkisFlux wrote:Lol - World Dominator.

> > Duke Flauros wrote:

> > > Summon Blizzard (Sp): Works as Summon Snow but the wind speed raised to Hurricane and creates Heavy Snow that leaves one foot of snow per minute while the temperature is set to freezing. All creatures and objects in the radius take 1d6 points of cold damage every minute.

> > Xixecals are CR 36, and their dire winter only goes out to 1k feet.

> References to Epic level creatures are inappropriate, because this is the den and the game stops at level 20 here. If you have an actual reason why this is bullshit, not just some comparison with an already bullshit monster, please place it here instead.

I did. The ability to create 1 ft snow a minute over an 11 mile radius will allow a player to flood an entire planet.
Niao! =^.^=

> Mike Mearls wrote:“In some ways, it was like we told people, ‘The right way to play guitar is to play thrash metal,’” “But there’s other ways to play guitar.” “D&D is like the wardrobe people go through to get to Narnia,” “If you walk through and there’s a McDonalds, it’s like —’this isn’t Narnia.’”

> Tom Lapille wrote:"As we look ahead, we are striving for clarity in both flavor and mechanics.""Our goal with most of the D&D Next rules is that they get out of the way of the action as much as possible."

> Mike Mearls wrote:"Look, no one at Wizards ever woke up one day and said 'Let's get rid of all of our fans and replace them.' That was never the intent."

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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:41 am

> So you can wield a colossal greatsword as a pixie with no size penalties?

You will need to wait for level 15 to do that. At which point it becomes a non-issue.

> Save? DC? Autohit? Requires line of sight/effect? Can it freeze snow? Snap brittle structures? Weaken bricks?

Save: No. Autohit. LoE: Yes.
It deals cold damage. What effect this has on the enveironment in your game is entirely up to you.

> So at level 4, you can kill anything with less than 25 hp instantly.

I actually encourage people to lower the freeze threshold by 5 hp in their games just to keep it at an Int bonus = 5 hp basis.

> Waaaay OP for sixth level. With a bit of creativity, you could depopulate entire cities or even regions with this.

Sixth level is about one level away from the time when you can do that even without being a Wintersmith. Besides, like Kaelik puts it, if you go about being a dick to people just for shits and giggles then they are liable to come after you or hire people to come after you.

> Xixecals are CR 36, and their dire winter only goes out to 1k feet.

Same thing as Summon Snow. You are not casting this because you want to ruin a huge area but usually because you need a lot of snow really fast, difficult terrain or bad weather conditions to hamper your enemies. The extra cold damage is just cherry.

> There's absolutely no way someone could abuse that. None at all.

At this point you took 14 levels in the class. Again, even if you find some stuff that you can abuse with this in other classes, you'd need to get to level 17 or something for it to even become an issue. If you want to abuse the game, there are easier ways to do it at earlier levels

> You can now fully freeze the world, in case there was anything left after chaincasting your souped up dire winter.

And the fire mage can burn the world from space with the added benefit that he might actually kill the people he does not like with it.
Last edited by Dominicius on Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Surgo
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Post by Surgo » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:52 am

This is a pretty awesome class. Is there a save on the Black Ice death effect?
http://www.dnd-wiki.org -- the wiki
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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:28 pm

This looks pretty good, but here are some issues I have.
Freeze is way too good at low levels. At level one, the threshold is 10 (5 base + 1 level*5) and you have an immediate action no save ability that deals 1d6+1 cold damage. Anything with 12 hit points or less gets hit with a no save flesh to stone ability. To fix this, I would either change the scaling to be lower, move the ability to a higher level where hp starts to inflate a bit, or give Cold Snap a save.
Frostrend should grant immunity to it for a duration if you make the save. Permanent slow basically beats everything in the monster manual, and this class has multiple things that deal cold damage per round. Just for the DM's sake, limit it to 1/round or something.

> * Special note for Kaelik, you can wield colossal Ice Craft swords with no penalties and can launch Ice Craft items without any fucking throw penalties.

I lol'd.
But on a serious note, instead of the headache that is arguing with your gamer friends over D&D weapon sizing, just scrap that part. The class gets CC, AOE dps spam, immunities, mobility stuff, and an immediate action attack. You don't need to be arguing over base weapon damage. You already deal damage to things immune to cold, and you have SoL/SoD abilities as well. Just delete the size category headache stuff.

> Duke Flauros wrote:I have to say, I like the idea, but it's overpowered. As in stronger than world dominator (at dnd-wiki.org) overpowered.

> > He also counts as proficient with any type of Ice Craft equipment and never suffers any penalties for wielding it, especially not size penalties or throw penalties.

> So you can wield a colossal greatsword as a pixie with no size penalties?

> > Cold Snap (Sp): As an immediate action you can deal 1d6+your level cold damage to a target within close range.

> Save? DC? Autohit? Requires line of sight/effect? Can it freeze snow? Snap brittle structures? Weaken bricks?

> > Freeze (Su): When a Wintersmith inflicts cold damage on any target, whether with his class abilities or another source of cold if the target is left at 5 hp or lower it becomes frozen similar to flesh to stone, except with ice. If not thawed then the target dies in ten minutes, to thaw a target you need a steady source of warmth similar to the heat in a desert, so a fireball won't cut it but if such a source is provided then the target will thaw after one minute. The remaining ice sculpture can be shattered by inflicting 1 point of damage on it but all equipment of the target will remain unharmed. The Wintersmith can also thaw a target instantly by touching it. The freeze threshold is increased by 5 for every point of Int mod or every level of the Wintersmith, whichever is less.

> So at level 4, you can kill anything with less than 25 hp instantly.

> > Summon Snow (Sp): As a standard action, the Wintersmith may make it snow in a 1 mile per level radius, in as wide or as small an area as you want. It starts off with an inch of snow, and goes up an inch every hour until you tell it to stop, the temperature also becomes cold. Snowy weather also no longer impairs your vision.

> Waaaay OP for sixth level. With a bit of creativity, you could depopulate entire cities or even regions with this.

> > Summon Blizzard (Sp): Works as Summon Snow but the wind speed raised to Hurricane and creates Heavy Snow that leaves one foot of snow per minute while the temperature is set to freezing. All creatures and objects in the radius take 1d6 points of cold damage every minute.

> Xixecals are CR 36, and their dire winter only goes out to 1k feet.

> > Ice Assassin (Sp): A Wintersmith can create an Ice Assassin over the course of one hour. The Ice Assassin has all the same stats and abilities as the Wintersmith, despite obviously being made of ice. It lacks all class features from the Wintersmith class that are granted at above 10th level, and all abilities from other classes that take more than a free action to activate. The Assassin obeys the Wintersmith completely via telepathy. The Assassin lasts for 8 hours and only one Assassin can be active at any time.

> There's absolutely no way someone could abuse that. None at all.

> > Black Ice (Sp): The ultimate art of frost magic creates ice so cold that even light is frozen when it touches it. Focusing for one full round action the Wintersmith can craft a single item out of Black Ice and attack with it should he wish it. Such an item can only be used by the Wintersmith or his Ice Assassin and lasts for only two minutes before shattering, during which time it is completely indestructible and radiates an intense frost out to 60 feet. Upon striking a target, the item shatters and the target is killed instantly. This is both a [Death] and a [Cold] effect. Those who resist this effect still suffer normal weapon damage but it is fully converted into cold damage. If dropped into water it is enough to freeze a sea, if hit upon the ground it can freeze the earth out to a 1000 miles. The Wintersmith can have only one item made of Black Ice at any given time. Ice Craft can now make colossal objects and all Ice Craft objects cut through any type of DR.

> You can now fully freeze the world, in case there was anything left after chaincasting your souped up dire winter.

Pretty much +1 to everything said here.
In practicality, Freeze is the most problematic ability. Especially combined with a form of no save, no attack roll damage. For reference, here are some spells that kill the target based on their mook status (either current HP or hit dice)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm
Not only are those way higher level abilities, this is better than them and at will.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:32 am

Thanks for the input. Been a while since I looked over this class but I figure it is worth revisiting.
*I have set the base threshold for Freeze to 0 hp that increases by 4 each level/int mod.
*Cold Snap now has a reflex save to negate the damage completely.
*Frostrend now gives immunity for 1 minute if you pass the saving throw.
*Dropped the good fort save.
*Summon Snow now only lasts for up to 24 hours and can only be used once per week. Once you get summon blizzard this restriction is removed.
*Summon Blizzard now creates one inch of snow every minute and the cold damage is lowered to 1d4 per round.
*Detonation deals piercing damage.
If other issues come up I'll try to address them.
Last edited by Dominicius on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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