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## A Rough Sketch of Skill Feats

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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sun May 13, 2007 12:29 am

I don't know what hoppened.
You don't really need to hand out that ability if a wand can already do it.
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User3
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by User3 » Sun May 13, 2007 3:55 am

Nystul's Magic Aura can only target objects, and even then it has a pretty restrictive weight limit (that 1st level wand can't even target the fighter's Greatsword). Being able to make people show up as non-magical is probably a good idea, although it could just as easily be a 2nd level spell.
Then, all we'd need is some way to make *illusions* (and other spells) not show up to Detect Magic, and we'd be in business, but that sounds more like a metamagic feat than anything else.
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Catharz
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Catharz » Sun May 13, 2007 5:31 am

> Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1179016143[/unixtime]]I don't know what hoppened.
> You don't really need to hand out that ability if a wand can already do it.

My point is that not everybody with maxed ranks in disguise will have maxed ranks in UMD.

> Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1179028539[/unixtime]]
> Then, all we'd need is some way to make *illusions* (and other spells) not show up to Detect Magic, and we'd be in business, but that sounds more like a metamagic feat than anything else.

Heh, you don't want illusions to seem non-magical. That would be too suspicious.
You want them to detect as magic, but not specifically as illusions. Unless you're dealing in shadow, of course.
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User3
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by User3 » Sun May 13, 2007 6:01 am

I'd love for the illusionary floor over the pit trap to detect as non-magical, since the rest of the corridor sure as hell does. Likewise for being invisible. If I don't want to put up the "pay attention to THIS" flag, there should be an option to avoid it.
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Catharz
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Catharz » Sun May 13, 2007 6:08 am

> Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1179036061[/unixtime]]I'd love for the illusionary floor over the pit trap to detect as non-magical, since the rest of the corridor sure as hell does. Likewise for being invisible. If I don't want to put up the "pay attention to THIS" flag, there should be an option to avoid it.

True 'nuff.
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CalibronXXX
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by CalibronXXX » Sun May 13, 2007 3:13 pm

> Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1179034261[/unixtime]]My point is that not everybody with maxed ranks in disguise will have maxed ranks in UMD.

It's a first level spell, you can get it for free as an at-will use activated item in the Wish economy; at caster level 7 even; caster level 8 as a command word item.
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Catharz » Sun May 13, 2007 6:24 pm

> Calibron at [unixtime wrote:1179069237[/unixtime]]

> > Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1179034261[/unixtime]]My point is that not everybody with maxed ranks in disguise will have maxed ranks in UMD.

> It's a first level spell, you can get it for free as an at-will use activated item in the Wish economy; at caster level 7 even; caster level 8 as a command word item.

And then you get hit by a dispel trap of moderately high caster level and everyone knows you're a pit fiend wielding the Sword of Kas.
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CalibronXXX
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by CalibronXXX » Mon May 14, 2007 9:48 am

And you don't care because you're a Pit Fiend Wielding the Sword of Kas!
Not saying a skill feat shouldn't allow you to hide your magic auras; just pointing out that there are cheap alternatives.
Besides, you can get a whole bunch of once a day CL 20 Nystul's Magic Aura bling if you're so worried about dispel traps or similar.
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Iaimeki
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Iaimeki » Fri May 18, 2007 10:16 pm

> Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1179015565[/unixtime]]

> > Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1179014672[/unixtime]]
> > Actually; (Nystul's) Magic Aura is a wandable spell (1st lvl) that hides all magic on a character for a day/level.
> > Most people don't do so, but spending 750 GP everytime you want to hide your magical gear's magical auras isn't too big of a deal for someone that actually wants to hide their gear's auras.

> Huh, just the sort of thing you'd want Disguise to do. Maybe I'll make a skill feat with that as one of the abilities.

Actually, my skill feat for Disguise already does that. It also scales so that you can use it on objects that are bigger than 5 lbs.

> Calibron at [unixtime wrote:1179069237[/unixtime]]

> > Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1179034261[/unixtime]]My point is that not everybody with maxed ranks in disguise will have maxed ranks in UMD.

> It's a first level spell, you can get it for free as an at-will use activated item in the Wish economy; at caster level 7 even; caster level 8 as a command word item.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that without significant revisions to the magic item system, the wish economy breaks.
I'm not sure what hiding the auras of actual spells should be. It's something I've considered, but for the Skill feats, I tried to avoid things that would be mostly of use to spellcasters unless the skill was one only spellcasters usually have, i.e., Concentration or Spellcraft.
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CalibronXXX
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by CalibronXXX » Sat May 19, 2007 10:44 am

> Iaimeki at [unixtime wrote:1179526565[/unixtime]]
> I think it's pretty clear at this point that without significant revisions to the magic item system, the wish economy breaks.

I don't necessarily disagree, but in this case I see nothing broken about infinite first level spells by level 11, even at Caster level 20.
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by PhoneLobster » Sat May 19, 2007 12:17 pm

I don't think the point of the wish economy is that it doesn't break.
I'm pretty certain that the whole point is that its just a realization and admission of the fact that the system as it stands essentially creates limitless wealth for characters at some point. And that without even more than just a revision of magical items thats the way it will stay.
Its basically just a starting point, of course it requires some sort of revision of magic items. But that was required ANYWAY and without some understanding or determination of what limitless wealth is and what that means that revision would fail.
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CalibronXXX
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by CalibronXXX » Sat May 19, 2007 1:40 pm

Fortunately that limitless wealth isn't actually worth much at all under the Tome series rules. Using said revised rules, magic items only need a revision due to the fact that magic items need a revision, irregardless of the "infinite" wealth created by the wish economy.
However, as was pointed out in the "More Wish Economy" thread the wish economy as written allows for infinite 9th level scrolls, and as we all know 9th level spells make the game utterly unplayable, but as was also pointed out in the aforementioned thread limiting magic items created by XP-free Wishes to once-per-day or more items fixes this almost completely; leaving only abberations in the system, such as the Candle of Invocation, which can then be safely, and sanely, disposed of on an individual basis.
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by AlphaNerd » Sun May 20, 2007 7:27 pm

> Hide
> As mentioned in the Dungeonomicon, Hide should not require cover or concealment to function.

That's great, but does neither cover nor concealment give you any bonuses then? It seems like being half hidden should give some sort of circumstance bonus.
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Iaimeki
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Iaimeki » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:35 pm

> AlphaNerd at [unixtime wrote:1179689262[/unixtime]]

> > Hide
> > As mentioned in the Dungeonomicon, Hide should not require cover or concealment to function.

> That's great, but does neither cover nor concealment give you any bonuses then? It seems like being half hidden should give some sort of circumstance bonus.

It didn't give you any explicit bonuses in 3.0, so I decided not to add any here. The DM, as always, may exercise discretion.
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Crissa
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Crissa » Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:48 pm

Cover and concealment should come from Hide, not vice versa.
Circumstance is more for the opponent than for you - since they get minuses to their spot for distance; cover and concealment should give them minuses as well to types of search checks.
Put the numbers on one side of the equation, not on both sides.
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Crissa
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Crissa » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:25 am

Did we ever come up with a simplified skill feat system instead of a point based one?
Less numbers on the sheet I am all for.
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erik
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by erik » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:39 pm

On the Animal Affinity feat, the top tier ability is a bit silly on multiple fronts. Too many dice, and no such thing as CR 14 animals.
CR=Level -2 on an ability gained at level 16 is a little silly since there are no animals with a CR in the double digits unless you rummage through non-core books.
Dire Tigers, Rocs, Tyrannosaurs and Giant Squids top out at CR 8 or 9.

> CR, number appearing:
> Level - 2, d2
> Level - 3, d3
> Level - 4, d4
> Level - 5, d6
> Level - 6, d8
> Level - 7, 2d6
> Level - 8, 2d10
> Level - 9, 3d10
> Level - 10, 7d6
> Level - 11, 3d20
> Level - 12, 7d12
> Level - 13, d100
> Level - 14, 6d20
> Level - 15, 25d6
> Level - 16, 10d20
> Level - 17, 40d6
> Level - 18, 60d6
> Level - 19, 80d6

If you've already introduced a d100, then it's just cruel to make someone revert to using a d6 for the higher rolls. Rolling and summing 80 dice for 1 standard action is a good way to kill 5 minutes I suppose.
If this is intended as a combat ability then it should probably cap out at 6 critters and go no higher. Controlling and keeping tabs on more than that starts to become a huge time sink. Not to mention that using critters that are 10 or more under CR in battles is annoying.
I'd recommend getting rid of all of the die rolls and simply make the number of animals summoned a non-random, direct function of either your skill check or rank. Not only that, but I'd scale back that CR table.
So how about since the ability comes so late in levels anyway, simply have a set table for what you can summon and not modify it over the next 5 levels?
1 CR 11 critter
2 CR 10 critters
3 CR 9 critters
4 CR 8 critters
6 CR 7 critters
8 CR 6 critters
10 CR 5 critters
20 CR 4 critters
40 CR 3 critters
100 CR 2 critters
200 CR 1 critters
300 CR <1 critters
The CR 11 and 10 critters are mostly place-holders for dire elephants and such, should they be included in a campaign,
The low CR critters are included for fluffness sake... like granting temporary steeds to the villagers escaping the giant hordes, anyone using 40 deinonychuses in combat should be shot.
For the "realists" critters may only be summonable in their native habitats... or 1/2 the normal amount when outside of those terrains.
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Crissa
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Crissa » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:05 am

Perhaps it should switch to swarms, instead.
Or go away. Going away is an option for skills, too. We don't need all of them, do we?
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Iaimeki
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Iaimeki » Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:54 pm

> clikml at [unixtime wrote:1184679564[/unixtime]]On the Animal Affinity feat, the top tier ability is a bit silly on multiple fronts. Too many dice, and no such thing as CR 14 animals.
> CR=Level -2 on an ability gained at level 16 is a little silly since there are no animals with a CR in the double digits unless you rummage through non-core books.
> Dire Tigers, Rocs, Tyrannosaurs and Giant Squids top out at CR 8 or 9.

Yes, but I didn't know what to do here: things of CR more than a few levels below a character's level are useless by design. Maybe open it up to magical beasts or something?

> clikml at [unixtime wrote:1184679564[/unixtime]]

> > CR, number appearing:
> > Level - 2, d2
> > Level - 3, d3
> > Level - 4, d4
> > Level - 5, d6
> > Level - 6, d8
> > Level - 7, 2d6
> > Level - 8, 2d10
> > Level - 9, 3d10
> > Level - 10, 7d6
> > Level - 11, 3d20
> > Level - 12, 7d12
> > Level - 13, d100
> > Level - 14, 6d20
> > Level - 15, 25d6
> > Level - 16, 10d20
> > Level - 17, 40d6
> > Level - 18, 60d6
> > Level - 19, 80d6

> If you've already introduced a d100, then it's just cruel to make someone revert to using a d6 for the higher rolls. Rolling and summing 80 dice for 1 standard action is a good way to kill 5 minutes I suppose.
> If this is intended as a combat ability then it should probably cap out at 6 critters and go no higher. Controlling and keeping tabs on more than that starts to become a huge time sink. Not to mention that using critters that are 10 or more under CR in battles is annoying.
> I'd recommend getting rid of all of the die rolls and simply make the number of animals summoned a non-random, direct function of either your skill check or rank. Not only that, but I'd scale back that CR table.
> So how about since the ability comes so late in levels anyway, simply have a set table for what you can summon and not modify it over the next 5 levels?
> 1 CR 11 critter
> 2 CR 10 critters
> 3 CR 9 critters
> 4 CR 8 critters
> 6 CR 7 critters
> 8 CR 6 critters
> 10 CR 5 critters
> 20 CR 4 critters
> 40 CR 3 critters
> 100 CR 2 critters
> 200 CR 1 critters
> 300 CR <1 critters
> The CR 11 and 10 critters are mostly place-holders for dire elephants and such, should they be included in a campaign,
> The low CR critters are included for fluffness sake... like granting temporary steeds to the villagers escaping the giant hordes, anyone using 40 deinonychuses in combat should be shot.

I borrowed the table straight from the Tome of Fiends, since i didn't have any other handy guidelines on how many creatures one should get from the ability. Your criticisms about the dice are on target, though: past the top levels, there's no real need for randomness at all (the relative variance gets damped).
I don't like fixing the table at 16th level: while the game is horribly broken that high, I dislike the aesthetic of an ability that caps out, leaving no more reason to raise the skill. It's something I tried to avoid for all the skill feats.
Large hordes of low-CR creatures are, of course, not supposed to be useful in combat, but can be handy as story elements. There's no real check on someone *trying* to use them in combat, other than the other people in the game saying, "Please don't bog things down," and horde-clearing spells like cloudkill and blasphemy.

> clikml at [unixtime wrote:1184679564[/unixtime]]For the "realists" critters may only be summonable in their native habitats... or 1/2 the normal amount when outside of those terrains.

"Realists" can go to hell. They're the reason only wizards, clerics, and druids get nice things in the core.
I reduced the dice-rolling required in the chart, but in the vein of monsters' summon ability I didn't want it to be completely reliable. Thanks for the criticism!
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Fwib
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### Re: Rough Sketches of Skill Feats

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Post by Fwib » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:18 pm

> Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1184717108[/unixtime]]Perhaps it should switch to swarms, instead.

What about the 'Mob' template from DMG2?
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CalibronXXX
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### Re: A Rough Sketch of Skill Feats

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Post by CalibronXXX » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:57 am

Extraordinary Leaper*[Skill]
You spend more time with your feet off the ground than on it, when you want to. (This is a Skill feat that scales with your ranks in Jump.)
Benefit: The DCs for high jumps for you are only 2 times the height instead of 4. In addition you can hop up (see the Jump skill description) a number of feet equal to or less then your ranks in jump.
4: You can jump as a swift action.
9: By using an appropriate action(normally a move action) you can make an additional jump at any point during another jump.
14: The distance of your jumps in a round is no longer constrained by your land speed. If your jump check exceeds your land speed you may complete it in the same round using only the action used to initiate the jump.
19: The DCs for jump checks for you are cut in half.**
Combat Jumping*[Combat]
You use your powerful leaps to great effect in a fight. (This is a Combat feat that scales with your Base Attack Bonus.)
Benefit: You get a +3 bonus on jump checks, also, whenever you engage a land or sea bound opponent, or one who is flying with less than Good maneuverability, while you are jumping you are considered to have the Edge against them.
1: Whenever you jump you can throw yourself at a creature and make a touch attack, if you succeed you may initiate a Bull Rush and use your jump check in place of a strength check.
6: When moving out of an enemy’s threatened area(or moving into it in the case of high level enemies with Horde Breaker) via jumping you no longer trigger an attack of opportunity. Whenever you make a melee as a standard action or as part of a full attack you can hop five feet in any direction.
11: Whenever you would be allowed an attack of opportunity you can instead jump.
16: You can jump as an immediate action.
*I suck at names; suggestions welcome.
**Looking for a better 19 rank ability, this one seems too bland and maybe too powerful.
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CalibronXXX
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### Re: A Rough Sketch of Skill Feats

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Post by CalibronXXX » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:42 pm

No feedback? You know I thrive on feedback. Or is it that they're just perfect as is?
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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: A Rough Sketch of Skill Feats

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:05 pm

No, they're hard to name, I tried a couple weeks ago and drew a blank.
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### Re: A Rough Sketch of Skill Feats

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Post by JonSetanta » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:00 pm

In retrospect, they're perfect, Calibron. Wish I had checked back on this earlier, but until Yahzi had linked here (cuz the PDF lacks this thread) I had forgotten about it!
My favs are Alertness, Swim Like a Fish, and your version of the Jump skill (combine with Iameki's though, what happens? yikes)

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### Re: A Rough Sketch of Skill Feats

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Post by Surgo » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:10 pm

The problem is that even with them, the jump skill still sucks.
A good feat based around Jump needs to address the problem that the skill stops being useful when everyone starts flying.
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