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## What's wrong with Inflicted Insight?

Mundane & Pointless Stuff I Must Share: The Off Topic Forum

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Maj
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Post by Maj » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:52 am

> RobbyPants wrote:On a related note, is there any way to gage how often people behave in a way that's not normal or natural because they're trying to predict what the experimenters are looking for? Is this currently a problem? I only took one psych class in college.

I don't have exact numbers here, but I know that this problem is mentioned casually in a lot of the books I read. It just came up in Superfreakonomics on the subject of altruism - apparently, people who knew they were part of an experiment were more likely to donate money to people for fear of looking cheap. That social pressure alters a person's behavior (be it a lab experiment or something like the SPE) isn't really news.
The real challenge is how to discern a person's actual behavior/beliefs.

> Catharz wrote:If you go around inflicting insight by telling fat people that they're fat, ugly people that they're ugly, and stupid people that they're stupid, you're not performing a great service to humanity. You're being an ass.

I would argue that calling any of that inflicting "insight" is a horrible lie.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:23 pm

> Maj wrote:

> > RobbyPants wrote:On a related note, is there any way to gage how often people behave in a way that's not normal or natural because they're trying to predict what the experimenters are looking for? Is this currently a problem? I only took one psych class in college.

> I don't have exact numbers here, but I know that this problem is mentioned casually in a lot of the books I read. It just came up in Superfreakonomics on the subject of altruism - apparently, people who knew they were part of an experiment were more likely to donate money to people for fear of looking cheap. That social pressure alters a person's behavior (be it a lab experiment or something like the SPE) isn't really news.
> The real challenge is how to discern a person's actual behavior/beliefs.

That's what I wondered. It'd seem like you'd constantly have to mislead them as to what it is you're looking for. I guess the simple fact that they know they're being observed might make them act differently, even if they don't know what it is you're looking for.
I guess the more anonymous a person feels, the more likely they might be to act normally.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:59 pm

> Maj wrote:

> > Catharz wrote:If you go around inflicting insight by telling fat people that they're fat, ugly people that they're ugly, and stupid people that they're stupid, you're not performing a great service to humanity. You're being an ass.

> I would argue that calling any of that inflicting "insight" is a horrible lie.

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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:51 pm

Because it's whiny.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Vnonymous
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Post by Vnonymous » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:38 pm

I'd consider it a great service. One of the most annoying things about ugly and stupid people is that they don't realise that they're ugly and stupid half the time. Sure, you'll offend them, but in the process you'll stop them from offending everyone else.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:13 pm

By making them not ugly? Or are you talking about how they dress?
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Leress
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Post by Leress » Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:44 am

> Vnonymous wrote:I'd consider it a great service. One of the most annoying things about ugly and stupid people is that they don't realise that they're ugly and stupid half the time. Sure, you'll offend them, but in the process you'll stop them from offending everyone else.

Pointing it out doesn't mean shit, now telling them how not to be that is actually helpful.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

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Almaz
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Post by Almaz » Fri Apr 22, 2011 3:36 am

> Vnonymous wrote:I'd consider it a great service. One of the most annoying things about ugly and stupid people is that they don't realise that they're ugly and stupid half the time. Sure, you'll offend them, but in the process you'll stop them from offending everyone else.

You're stupid. Probably ugly, but I haven't seen any proof. But definitely stupid.
Do you feel either a) serviced or b) that I'm correct and you will change any of your behaviours whatsoever in light of this new information?
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:10 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote: The Milgram experiment didn't just provide people with insight. It caused real mental anguish as peoples' respect for authority and empathy came into direct conflict. The insight (which may have also resulted in mental anguish) came afterwards.

Yes, so?

> The only reason that an experiment which only provides self-knowledge to participants would have trouble passing a review board is because that self-knowledge could result in mental anguish which is disproportionate to the value of the study.

What do you mean by 'disproportionate'? Making people aware that when it comes down to it, we're not much different from Nazi Germany or abusive prison prison guards is extremely valuable knowledge.

> If you go around inflicting insight by telling fat people that they're fat, ugly people that they're ugly, and stupid people that they're stupid, you're not performing a great service to humanity. You're being an ass.

What if they genuinely don't know about it, like what happened with the Stanford and Milgram experiments? Moreover, is it okay for people to waltz around with their underdeveloped educations and inaccurate self-image if the truth hurts? I agree that there's not much point in telling an obese Type 2 Diabetes patient that they're fat, but, say making a parent aware of the fact that they're creating an environment (intentionally or not) that promotes the kind of non-interference indirect violence that Kitty Genovese went under is something different.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:29 am

By "disproportionate", I mean that the gain in insight will make the participant's life worse rather than better; that is, have a disproportionately negative effect. A disproportionately positive effect, on the other hand, validates the insight. If learning that you're no different from a Nazi has improved (or will improve) your quality of life and/or your interactions with others, then the "infliction" of insight was good.
Since I doubt that you learned that you're no different from a Nazi in a traumatic fashion, the infliction of insight was most likely a good thing despite the most likely negligible effect that it's had on your life.
If they already know what you're going to tell them, the only value of the insight is that it comes from a (hopefully) trusted professional. If you are offering a novel piece of information, the value is presumably greater.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:34 am

the entire bullshit reasoning behind "feelings" is why psychology is such a joke these days
read this. apparently the truth should be concealed unless it is politically correct

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:07 pm

> CG wrote:By "disproportionate", I mean that the gain in insight will make the participant's life worse rather than better; that is, have a disproportionately negative effect.

Psychology experiments aren't done for the sake of the experimentees; that'd be therapy. Would you have thrown out the later iterations of the (the puppies, the change in locale, the gender changes) Milgram experiment if the original crew said that they were 'very upset' by the experiment?
Secondly, the other half of it is that it's still preferable to letting someone go out and walk around in ignorance. If a group of people, like say, middle managers are going around praising themselves for their racial and gender inequality but are (unknowingly) rather racist and sexist how is it disproportionately 'good' for them to be unaware of their attitudes?

> CG wrote:Since I doubt that you learned that you're no different from a Nazi in a traumatic fashion, the infliction of insight was most likely a good thing despite the most likely negligible effect that it's had on your life.

Maybe it's because I learned it because someone else learned it in a more traumatic fashion? How are you supposed to get the benefits of the research without actually doing the research?

> CG wrote:]If they already know what you're going to tell them, the only value of the insight is that it comes from a (hopefully) trusted professional.

I admit, I put off responding to this post for about four months because I didn't really have an answer to this, but several new pieces of information that came to me--specifically, the Dunning Krueger effect--has led me to think that it's pretty much rarely the case. Unless it's blatantly obvious, like an ugly/overweight person being those things, many people don't know what you're going to tell them or show them.
As unscientific and free-wheeling as Cracked is, that website has like twenty articles pointing out problems with human self-evaluation and common sense. They did yet another one last week even. Sure, experimenters can just obtain their results about social and psychological problems and not really tell them what went on, but again who does that benefit in the long run?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Josh_Kablack
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### well that one's obvious.

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Post by Josh_Kablack » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:50 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:. Sure, experimenters can just obtain their results about social and psychological problems and not really tell them what went on, but again who does that benefit in the long run?

People who read the published results of such studies.
Now of course, that does run into problems with the academic firewalls most journals are hidden behind currently and the disturbing tendency for the subject-contact members of social experiment teams to have little to no information about eventual publication goals of the projects they work on. Those two factors frequently combine with the inherent time frames of social research to make it difficult if not impossible for even curious subjects to find what the outcome of an experiment they volunteered for was.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:27 pm

the fact that we stopped tests like the milgram experiments is why psychology is so useless.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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