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OgreBattle
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### accounts of real Knightly Duels for your reading pleasure

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Post by OgreBattle » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:29 am

I've had a bit of a "realism in games" itch and been looking up accounts of actual sword fights and such, so here's a cool article I've found. If you know of any other historic duel or war accounts I'd love to turn this into a resource/info dump thread.
This is the Deeds of Jaques Lailang, Knight of Tears
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm
It's fairly long and detailed, but a few nice highlights
Feats of Jousting

> Striking his first opponent squarely in the middle of the shield with his lance, Jacques "carried both man and horse so rudely to the ground that both the destrier and the man who rode him were stunned." His opponent was unable to continue the combat. He defeated his second opponent by striking him in the eye-slits of his helmet with his lance, ripping it off of his head. The second knight was too stunned to continue.
> ....
> On the third course, the knight of Auvergne struck Jacques in the middle of his shield and splintered his lance. Jacques, on the other hand, striking "with all his force and science," hit his opponent in the eyeslits. This blow struck so hard that it struck sparks from the helmet, bending the opponent backwards in the saddle until his back rested on the croup of his horse. His opponent, completely stunned, fell from his horse. The knight of Auvergne was carried unconscious to his lodgings; it was a full hour before he regained his memory, and he bled profusely from the mouth, nose, and ears.
> ....
> On the second course, Jacques again carried his opponent's helm off his head. His lance struck with such force that the helm was carried 4 "toise." (A "toise" was a measure of length that seems to have been about 6 feet; thus, the helm was thrown about 24 feet by the force of the blow.)

The Feat of Arms: No Magic Allowed

> In the same year, Jacques de Lalaing began his famous Feats of Arms. These were pre-arranged, "friendly" duels in which the combatants fought in full armor with sharpened weapons of war. The combatants agreed in advance on the terms of the combat. Sometimes, a pre-arranged number of blows could be struck by each fighter. Typically, this involved three courses with the lance on horseback; three courses with the sword on horseback; and courses on foot with the spear or polaxe, sword, and dagger.
> ....
> The foot combat was to begin with each side hurling spears or "throwing-swords."* Thereafter, the combat was to continue with polaxes, swords, and daggers. The combat would end when one of the combatants touched the ground with his hand, knee, or body, or when one of them surrendered. Neither party was to affix any spikes or other "evil device" to his armor, nor was either party to carry any magical charms designed to influence the outcome.

Disarmed? Grapple

> "Each marched fiercely towards the other; and as they approached, they hurled their lances" - to no effect. Switching to their polaxes, they closed distance. Early on in the combat, Jacques used a disarming technique, knocking the polaxe out of one of Jean's hands - but the Italian knight quickly recovered his weapon, and resumed the fight. Jacques struck Sir Jean such a blow that it nearly turned him around, but still the fight continued. Finally, Jacques disarmed his opponent entirely, striking the polaxe out of both his hands. The Italian knight immediately sought to close distance, hoping the grapple with Sir Jacques, and trying to catch hold of his visor. But Jacques "kept driving him back with the point of his axe, so that de Boniface was unable to reach him."
> ....
> "Then Jacques de Lalaing, seeing how aggressive his adversary was, whirled the point of his polaxe around, and struck 3 blows on the eye-slits of Diego, one after another, in such a way that he was wounded in 3 places in the face...the first blow landed on his left brow, the second on the point of his forehead, and the third above the right eye."
> A few moments later, Jacques disarmed Diego, knocking his polaxe out of his hands. Following standard practice, Diego rushed in, arms outstretched, seeking to grapple. Jacques extended his left arm, stopping him, and with his right hand threw his axe aside. Still holding his opponent at bay with his left hand, Jacques was drawing his short sword when the King of Castille threw down the baton, stopping the combat.
> ....
> Jacques discarded his polaxe and closed to grapple with his opponent. Grabbing the Englishman’s helmet with one hand, and his left arm with the other, Jacques used a wrestling technique to throw Thomas Que. The English squire hit the ground with such force that the visor of his bascinet was buried in the earth. Seeing this, the duke threw down his baton, stopping the combat.

Team Battle

> In 1449, Jacques de Lalaing traveled to Stirling, Scotland, to fight with members of the Douglas clan before the King of Scotland. This was to be a combat of six. On the side of Hainault were Jacques, his uncle Simon de Lalaing, and a squire from Brittany named Herve de Meriadec. On the Scottish side were James Douglas (brother of the Earl of Douglas), another James Douglas, and John Ross of Halket. The combat took place on 25 February 1449. A crowd of five or six thousand gathered to watch.
> Under the agreed-upon terms, the combat was to take place on foot, armed with spear, polaxe, sword, and dagger. At the request of the Scots, the throwing of spears was forbidden. The combat was fought with sharp weapons, and was to continue until stopped by the king. Each combatant was allowed to help his companions.
> Jacques and his companions agreed in advance that as soon as the combat began, they would discard their spears and switch to their polaxes. When the combat began, they followed their plan; the Scots retained their spears.
> Jacques came against James Douglas (the earl's brother) and swiftly disarmed him, knocking the spear from his grasp. James switched to his polaxe, but Jacques disarmed him again, just as easily. Irate at having lost both his spear and his axe, James drew his dagger and attempted to close, striking repeatedly at Jacques' unarmored face. Jacques held him at bay with his left hand, catching his fingers in the eye-slits of his helmet. Discarding his polaxe, Jacques drew his sword, "...which was a thin estoc, and grasped the blade near the point, so he could use it as a dagger, for he had somehow lost his own." Meanwhile, James had caught hold of his bevor (chin-guard); attempting to thrust at the unarmored palm of James' hand, Jacques lost his sword. Now completely disarmed, Jacques caught his opponent with both hands on his visor, and was in the process of throwing him to the ground when the king stopped the combat.
> While this was going on, Simon de Lalaing fought with John Ross of Halket. As the chronicle says, Simon was "strong, hardy, and very expert in arms." Like his nephew Jacques, he quickly disarmed his opponent, knocking the spear out of his hands. The two knights then fought with polaxes. Sir John was a powerful man, but Simon "knew well how to receive the blows on his polaxe." Calmly warding off his opponent's attacks, Simon waited until his opponent "began to lose his force and his breath." Then, seeing his opportunity, he shifted to the offensive, thrusting with both the point and the tail-spike of the polaxe. As he drove his opponent back the entire length of the lists, says the chronicle, it was clear to everyone that Sir John was taking a beating.

Wearing less-than-full plate on purpose for greater agility

> Sir Jacques changed his head-gear before the foot combat. Instead of wearing a full helmet, he wore a half-visored helmet, which covered his chin and mouth, but left his nose and the upper part of his face uncovered. Later in the chronicle, the author states that Jacques habitually wore open-face helmets so that he could breathe more easily - despite the greater danger.
> ...
> The two combatants were armored quite differently. Jacques de Lalaing wore a sallet (light helmet) that left his face uncovered. He wore neither a gorget (neck guard) nor a bevor (chin guard). Thomas Que, on the other hand, wore a heavy helmet known as a great bascinet. His visor was shut, and he wore an additional reinforcement for his chin and throat. Lightly armored and breathing easily because of his light helmet, Jacques sped to the attack. Striking numerous blows at the Englishman’s head, he quickly forced him backwards.
> ....
> Next, Jacques fought Jehan de Villeneuve with polaxes. Perhaps as a display of self-confidence, Jacques wore no armor at all on his right leg.
> ....
> Jacques de Lalaing wore even less armor than before; in addition to leaving his right leg unarmored, he wore no gauntlet on his right hand.
> ....
> Savoyard found himself at a severe disadvantage once the combat began. His close-helmet (armet) so impeded his view that he was unwilling to move. Deprived of his defensive footwork, he fell easy prey to Jacques’ skilled attacks.

His main weapon was the pollaxe. Interesting that a lot of fights wind up disarming->grapple, and that you can slam a knight so hard into the ground his metal head is buried in the dirt.
Jaques was also one of the first knights to be killed by a cannon:
While taking part in the siege of Poucques, Jacques was felled by enemy cannon fire. He died on July 3rd, 1453, at the age of 32.
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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:05 am

You may enjoy this (fictional) use of The Wager of Battle.
Deep Cuts In A Lovecraftian Vein
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Soda
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Post by Soda » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:23 pm

Jacques's war cry: "Get 'em in the eye-slits!"
I didn't know you could aim for their head in a joust.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:57 pm

Everyone was in full plate, so I imagine aiming anywhere was fine. Seems like it would risk the other guy slamming the top of his shield into the lance and deflecting it entirely, though.
The grappling is probably because by that point in time armor pretty much couldn't be cut through, so keeping the other guy from getting enough room for a stab or hammerblow was a pretty good move. Certainly it beats fumbling around for your weapon while wearing full plate and a close-faced helm.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:49 am

> Soda wrote:Jacques's war cry: "Get 'em in the eye-slits!"
> I didn't know you could aim for their head in a joust.

A dude dueled Jacques with a helmet "in the ancient style" (open faced steel cap and chain coif.
Jacques stabbed him in the face.
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