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## Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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JonSetanta
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### Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by JonSetanta » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:08 am

Improved Explosions [Metamagic] v2
Your explosions explode.
Prereq: spellcaster level 1, any spell or spell-like ability that deals damage
Benefit: When the enhanced spell deals damage, increase that damage by an amount equal to the character's caster level squared, then divided by 2 (rounded down).
This extra damage is dealt at most once to each successfully damaged target in any round. The damage from this feat is of the same type as the spell.

Code: Select all

    [br]Caster Level	Extra Damage[br][br]1		1[br]2		2[br]3		4[br]4		8[br]5		12[br]6		18[br]7		24[br]8		32			[br]9		40			[br]10		50			[br]11		60			[br]12		72			[br]13		84			[br]14		98			[br]15		112			[br]16		128			[br]17		144		[br]18		162			[br]19		180			[br]20		200			[br]

When this feat is applied to a spell, the spell level does not increase.
Special: When applied to a spell any other Metamagic feats applied to it, whether applied before or during casting, are removed.
Note: A fix for damaging magics since SoDs accomplish the same thing. This feat might be comparible to Frank n K style feats since it scales with level, remaining useful at every advancement.
5th edit: math error correction <_<;;

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Koumei
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Koumei » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:46 pm

> sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1192180125[/unixtime]]equal to the character's caster level times caster level.

Please just put "caster level squared". The current wording makes me sad.
At any rate, I like it, except... why the bit about removing other metamagic?

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Surgo
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Surgo » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:16 pm

> At any rate, I like it, except... why the bit about removing other metamagic?

Otherwise you could tap most things with two magic missiles (one quickened, one normal) and have it immediately die with no save.
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Koumei
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Koumei » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:10 am

Hmm, I see what you mean with the higher caster levels. I mean, this is probably, like most metamagic feats, something you don't care about at low levels (but if you're not using another MM feat at the time, "why not"), but later on, it hits hard.
Magic Missile: 5d4+405
Fireball: 10d6+400 to everyone
Horrid Wilting: 15d8+400 to everyone
I approve.

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Voss
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Voss » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:13 am

Actually, magical missile is 1d4+401 to 5 different targets.
So, the entire encounter dies from a single first level spell. No save, no miss chance, just dead. Unless they have a brooch of shielding or perma-Shield spell. And then nothing happens.
And Storm of Vengenance (shudder) Round: 2, everything is dead and all the buildings are gone. 360' radius of just death.
And of course, if you're fighting something that isn't immune to frost or acid, you can kill them dead with fvcking cantrips. A Core wizard with just spell penetration and greater spell penetration kills a Balor dead with Ray of Frost as long as he rolls a 5+ on the SR check. (Before magic items). Gods forbid someone start tossing out no SR and no Save spells.
Bad.
At higher levels, you are literally annihilating enemies with no real cost to yourself. The half force damage is insult to injury...
Congrats, Sig, you managed to make spellcasters even worse.
0 level spells would actually be worse than any save or die.
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Koumei
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Koumei » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:29 am

That's kind of funny.

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JonSetanta
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:28 am

Voss: Thanks! Making things worse is apparently my specialty.
Koumei: At what age does a young gamer learn the meaning of "squared"? I meant for this kind of thing to be simple for many age ranges but if I'm just being dumb about that, and all D&D players at least know that much, I'll change it.
v2 up now.
OK how's that?

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Koumei
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Koumei » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:02 am

That seems to scale better. At level one, every little +1 you can get is huge because you don't have many modifiers and your foes have as many as six hit points. Still not as good as the 2d6+6 the Fighter is carrying around, or the 2d6+10 of the 1/2 orc Barbarian, but hey, you can also do other things.
Level 3 grants you 4d6+4 to one target with Scorching Ray, the King of Metamagic. Now it's likely to take a back seat, but still, that might not be a bad thing - it makes other spells decent. You could also hurt small groups for 3d4+4 each or whatever.
Level 5 introduces fireballs at 5d6+12 to a group. At fifth level, the +12 makes a difference, though not a "HOLY SHIT!" difference. It'll probably save the party an action or two, though.
Level 7 gives your Scorching Ray two rays. 8d6+24 to one person, or 4d6+24 each to two. Yeah, putting it that way, that's pretty special. Not orgasmic, but nice. Better than using your newfound 4th level spell-slot to Empower it for 6d6 to 2 (~21) or 12d6 to 1 (~42).
At level 10, your Fireball caps out, smacking a group for 10d6+50 each, so about 85 damage, except it's 42.5 because they pass the Reflex save. Still, that's not actually bad. For a group, that's still decent. And if you let "Heighten Spell" interact with it, it even solves that problem.
At level 11, three targets take 4d6+60, or one takes 12d6+60. Hilariously, one target could also take 1d3+60 from Acid Splash, but 60 isn't enough to kill someone - adding 12d6 to that does make a bit of a difference.
Let's look at level 15. A whole bunch of targets get horridly wilted for what, 15d8+112 damage each? Or half on a save. That's very nice. Worth casting? Possibly.
And finally, level 20. Sure, what the heck, Meteor Swarm. 24d6+200 is possibly enough to kill some creatures for the level. I'd check the SRD if I could be bothered.
Also, I thought most kids were taught what it means to square something by the time they're of roleplaying age. But I'm not actually sure. I started roleplaying late, after all, and judging by the spelling and attitudes on rpol.net, kids start roleplaying at age 6 these days.

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Voss
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Voss » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:15 pm

It isn't as ridiculous but its still fairly bad.
The fundamental problem is the feat, particularly at higher levels, is the only thing that matters. It doesn't deal with the disconnect between caster level and spell level. The spell you cast doesn't actually matter, (except for an area factor) as the feat is taking every spell well beyond their dice. The feat is really the only thing that matters, and there isn't any reason to take it all the time, as it makes your 'level inappropriate' abilities more than level appropriate.
It also doesn't fix a lot of the save or die spells. In fact, it makes them worse.
11th level wizard with disintegrate.
Normal : 22d6 (77) or 5d6 (17.5)
Feat : 22d6+60 (137) or 5d6+60 (77.5). Wait, thats the same as a failed save for the unaugmented spell!
Finger of death has the same problem. dead or take 3d6+13+84 (110.5) Thats rough at 13th level, particularly for a successful save.
It also interacts badly with any spell that isn't save for half, because the wording says they take the bonus damage whenever damaged. So they get the full effect of the feat all the time. The SC's Orb spells are particularly bad, as are ray of frost and acid splash.
Lets look at some random creatures, assuming you're using straight damage spells
CR 8 Lammasu 59 hp. -32 = 27 I think you can find a spell or two that does 27 damage on average.
CR 5 Werebear 62 hp. -12 = 50. OK, he's pretty happy.
CR 4 Otyugh 36 hp. -8 = 28. Not horrible, though a single scorching ray will put him down to 14, which is almost 2/3rds of his hit points. A well built warrior or rogue will finish him off, which makes me wonder what the rest of the party is doing.
So it probably isn't horrible at low levels, though probably still a bit much, unless your normal encounters are bigger or stronger than what would be CR appropriate.
High levels
CR 10 Rakshasa 52 hp. Whoops. Dead to ray of frost 2/3rds of the time Well, OK, his SR is a bitch to beat, so you're going to have to use Acid Splash instead. Dead.
CR 12 Roper 85 hp -72. Acid Splash won't cut it. Acid Arrow will, average damage over 3 rounds should do fine. And its a roper. You can really just walk away.
CR 12 Abyssal greater basilisk 189 hitpoints. Not bad. Like a lot of hulks, its hard to one shot, but with the bonus damage the party will definitely be able to kill it in one round, rendering it non-threatening.
CR 14 Truly horrid umber hulk 270 hp, -98. Fine. Not instant toast, but again, it isn't going to be much a challenge.
CR 20 Balor. 290 hp. Zap. Ray of Frost still strips 2/3rds of his hit points. Still bad.
At low levels, it isn't that bad. At high levels... it just doesn't work. You can't quite solo a CR appropriate creature something this way, but only 'can't quite'. Some you actually can if you toss in a quickened, level appropriate spell. It definitely makes encounters a lot less challenging... down to easy mode, really.
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Koumei
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Koumei » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:51 am

Except we're comparing them to spells which, when successful, win the game on the spot. Usually these spells are successful, because when you specialise in "making people die on a failed save", you do everything you can to make the save DC really high.
The problem might be that SoD spells are too good. I don't know, perhaps the kind of damage enemies slap you with means "Damage sucks, and SoD spells are the only thing good enough."
But whatever it is, the issue here is to make damage as good as SoD effects. And that means doing a shitload of damage.
And the 2/3 of the Balor's HP? Consider what happens if you don't actually kill it in one turn. Yeah. It either summons in a friend and hits you with a quickened SLA, or it pisses off long enough to heal up, summons a friend, then they both run in and bombard you with SLAs before closing for the kill.

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CalibronXXX
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by CalibronXXX » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:16 pm

You don't normally get multi-target SoDs until level 17, this feat hands them out at level, what, 9?
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Jacob_Orlove » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:46 pm

> Calibron at [unixtime wrote:1192554983[/unixtime]]You don't normally get multi-target SoDs until level 17, this feat hands them out at level, what, 9?

Color Spray is level 1, actually.
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JonSetanta
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by JonSetanta » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:51 pm

Forgot to elaborate: the damage counts as part of the 'base damage', not tacked on the side after save is resolved. I assumed there would be a quick association with the way Energy Admixture works but it seems not.
On a resisted save, the damage is halved from the normal damage + Imp. Explosion, or none is taken at all (as by spell or Evasion).
On a failed save the full damage is taken.
And yes, Koumei beat me to that statement, compare these massive amounts of damage to SoDs that do the same task.

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Surgo
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Surgo » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:30 am

Yeah, save or dies do a lot of damage, on a failed save. Spells like magic missile don't allow a save though, and your feat doesn't differentiate at all between spells that do or don't (or even their level).
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Voss
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Voss » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:14 am

And in a lot of ways these are worse than save or dies, even if they are doing the same thing.
All SoDs have saves, and most have SR.
There are lots of damage spells that have neither, and are effectively auto-kills, no matter what. At worst you have ray spells that have a 5% chance of missing.
You also aren't spending nearly the same amount of resources. To build a serious SoD killer mage, you've got to toss in feats, buffs (either items or other spells) and a relatively high level spell (or multiple spells, depending on how you do it.). This, on the other hand, is 1 feat, and any spell you care to cast, including fvcking cantrips. You don't need anything else. Hell, you don't even have to have an caster ability score higher than 10, you can fill all your damn slots with acid splash, and still fvcking kill everything you come across. Its also a metamagic feat that doesn't even have a bloody cost to it. It might as well be Evocations go from suck to win.
A balor dies outright to Acid Splash, Celerity, Acid Splash. 1 Feat, 2 0 level spells and 1 4th level spells. 1 Round At 20th (or hell, 12th), you've haven't spent jack-shit.
You are really blowing up CR appropriate monsters at no real cost to yourself. If you get an action, you auto-win. Except for *maybe* levels 1-8.
For the handful of critters that you can't one shot, you've got the rest of the party, who should be able to finish the almost dead monster off. If they're smart, at least one of them can do this too.
And you still haven't solved SoD spells that do damage on a successful save. Like finger of death or disintegrate. You make them worse, too.
Or just other spells that do damage. Mordenkainen's Sword? Evard's Black Tentacles? You want to add +shitloads of damage to that?
Because, as worded, it does.
Really, the big problem is monster HD, CR, spell levels and caster level have no real relationship to each other. Several monster types got their HD blown out of proportion to make them 'challenging'. Blowing spell damage out in the same fashion makes the hulks easy meat, and everything else insta-dead.
Ultimately everything not inside an anti-magic field or immune to everything is just a couple cantrips away from being dead, and thats messed up.
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CalibronXXX
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by CalibronXXX » Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:34 am

Hmm...caster level multiplied by spell level sounds like a more reasonable formula. You might want to restrict spell type as well, Ecard's Black Tentacles really doesn't need to get that much more awesome.
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by CalibronXXX » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:05 am

CR 3 versus Exploding Scorching Ray
Medium Air Elemental: Oneshotable, but on average has 6hp remaining.
Dire Wolf: Not oneshotable, 25 hp remaining on average.
Grick: erm...an unmodified scorching will roast this thing on average.
Water Mephit: Dead on average.
Rust Monster: Oneshotable, 7 hp remaining on average.
Locust Swarm: Oneshotable, 1 hp remaining on average.
Yeth Hound: Dead on average.
CR 6 versus Exploding Fireball or Lightning Bolt(failed save)
Belker: Dead on average
Babua: Not oneshotable, 37 hp remaining on average.
Chain Devil: barely oneshotable, 13 hp remaining on average; moderate SR.
Ettin: Not oneshotable, 26 hp remaining on average.
Gargantuan Monstrous Centipede: Not oneshotable, 27 hp remaining on average.
Will-o-Wisp: Immune. Exploding Acid Arrow leaves 18 hp on average.
Average Xorn: Oneshotable, 9 hp remaining on average.
CR 9 versus Exploding Cone of Cold(failed save)
Greater Air Elemental: Not oneshotable, 101 hp remaining on average.
Delver: Not oneshotable, 71 hp remaining on average.
Dragon Turtle: Not oneshotable, 61 hp remaining on average.
Nessian War Hound(Hell Hound): Dead on average(thanks to cold vulnerability).
Night Hag: Immune; Exploding Call Lightning Storm leaves 5 hp on average.
Androsphinx: Not oneshotable, 37 hp remaining on average.
Ythrak: Not oneshotable, 25 hp remaining on average.
CR 12 versus Exploding Disintegrate
Abyssal Greater Basilisk: Oneshotable, 33 average hp on failed save, 99 average hp on made save.
Frost Worm: Dead on average with failed save, 57 average hp remaining on made save.
Kolyarut: Dead on failed save(min damage); oneshotable on made save, 1 hp remaining on average. Moderate SR.
Leonal: Dead on average with failed save; not oneshotable on made save, 24 average hp remaining on made save.
Purple Worm: Oneshotable, 44 average hp remaining on failed save; not oneshotable with made save, 110 average hp remaining.
Roper: Dead on failed save; Dead on average on made save.
CR 16(there weren't enough CR15s) versus Exploding Horrid Wilting
Planetar: Dead on failed save; not oneshotable on made save 41 average hp remaining.Difficult SR.
Hound Archon Hero: Dead on average on failed save; not oneshotable of made save, 51 average hp remaining. Moderate SR.
Cornugon: Dead on average on failed save; not oneshotable of made save, 80 average hp remaining. Moderate SR.
Nightwalker: Dead on average on failed save; not oneshotable of made save, 86 average hp remaining. Moderate SR.
The higher CRs are all dragons and the dragon page isn't working for me. Meh.
This looks mildly balanced at all levels, but obviously I need some feedback on the new formula.
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JonSetanta
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by JonSetanta » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:48 am

I seriously never considered the additional damage to things like a successful save on Death effects because it wasn't meant to do such a thing.
And while I could state "this feat can only be applied to A,B and C spell schools" or "can only be applied to X, Y, and Z elements" or depends on the Energy Substitution choices, these would restrict the versatility.
And yet I'll have to consider such a thing since that same open-endedness creates problems.
Calibron: looks like a good comparison, sorry if it's changing a lot!

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Koumei
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Koumei » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:06 am

So, let's say CR 20, and for lulz we're using Meteor Swarm.
Using (CL^2)/2, it's 32d6+200 (~312), using (CL*SL) it's 32d6+180 (~292).
If this can still apply to spell slots converted into damaging effects (see: Sorcerer Heritage feats), then a Sorc can pump it up to 30d6+200 (~305) either way using an awesome breath weapon and a Prestige Class. It loses a couple of caster levels, but you cast a level 2 spell and suddenly any spell you convert has a level of half your CL.
None of this includes stupid "My CL is higher than my HD!" things (see: items and feats). We know we can do better, but the goal is to make sure that you alone are not auto-winning on average. Because I'm confident that when making the rules, you're meant to make it "work well" as written, and "win" when fully pumped (just like anything else).
So...
Balor: It laughs and gives you the finger. If you're allowed to E-sub (or convert to a cold/acid breath), then you only have to worry about SR (unless using the breath, I believe) and 4 saving throws (or 1 for the breath). On a failed save, it takes either 272 damage (18 left, your party had better kill it NAO), 252 damage (38 left - again, if you are part of a party, you're fine. If not, you're dead) or 295 damage (KNOCK-OUT! Not dead though - considering how close you are and that it has Death Throes, this is a good thing).
Pit Fiend: Immune to fire, spell resistance, Outsider saves etc.
But this takes full damage from lightning, so you're subbing it to that or breathing lightning. Because you can.
In all three situations, it's well into the negatives, but has Regeneration, so you pull out your Holy Needle and stab it to death.
Tarrasque: The Sorcerer's breath weapon gets reflected. He dies. Meteors don't reflect though, and you're substituting them to "not fire".
The SR is annoying, and the Ref save is laughable. But that really doesn't matter. If you're flying, you eventually win no matter what you do. If you're not, you can't kill it in one round, you can't kill it in two. You die. It's like a giant crab or scorpion.
Dragons: SR, good saves, crappy Dex, blah blah blah.
If we take a CR 16-17 and call that CR 20? On average, it's close. You can probably put them down in one round. If it's weak against an element you have, then no problem. But if it survives, you can get pummelled and harmed.
If we take a CR 20 and call it a CR 20, you die. Next!

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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by CalibronXXX » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:08 pm

After looking at the numbers it appears this feat doesn't turn into a real SoD until rather high levels,(the use of Disintegrate against the CR 12s titlted the data a bit in that category), except for CR 3 and possibly 4 thanks to the power of Scorching Ray more than the feat itself, but leaves you with damage analogous to a good all around melee-er. I feel this is a success; so what say you, yay or nay?
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by JonSetanta » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:15 pm

I'm against CL*SL cuz it's a 'jumpy progression' that advances unevenly every time a new spell level is gained.
It's exponential but if applied to a graph looks like steps going up.
With CL*CL it's a clean curve.
This might be pre-emptive, but... would y'all actually use this feat if given the opportunity in a game, and would you use it against the PCs?

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CalibronXXX
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by CalibronXXX » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:23 pm

You're basing the viability of a feat by how the progression looks on a standard line graph?
---
Okay, over my initial disbelief now. You need to tie it to spell level in some manner or you'll be killing things dead without expending meaningful resources, or rather, you've just given spellcasters, fvcking spellcasters mind you, a whole crap ton of meaningful resources. Please tell me you see why this is a bad thing.
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by JonSetanta » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:42 am

Not the appearance of the graph but the pace of increase. That was just an example to show how awkward it would be to jump even faster every odd level (except for Sorcerers and their even-level SL gains)
I'd rather that the damage increases on levels NOT advancing new spell slots so that at least something is gained.
Besides, CL^2 and /2 is roughly the same as CL*SL.
I'm writing up a version (and leaving that one up too, for comparison) that works more like Energy Admixture so spells like Disintegrate and Finger of Death don't abuse it...
And don't SoDs kill things with minimal resources? You need what, 2-3 spells per encounter? Even a paralysis effect effectively "wins".
Counting on damage for winning an encounter quickly really depends on the HP of the target. Against other casters they will rely on elemental defenses and similar spells; tankers will just have to take the blow, and rogue-like ones will throw luck to the winds and risk everything on that Evasion (for the Reflex saves, at least.. Mettle handles the other)

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> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Manxome » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:02 am

> sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1192662917[/unixtime]]It's exponential but if applied to a graph looks like steps going up.

Where by "exponential" you mean "quadratic."
And technically, everything is a step function when you're working with a discrete data set (you can't have fractional levels), but that doesn't defeat your general point.
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### Re: Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

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Post by Voss » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:15 am

> sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1192668126[/unixtime]]
> And don't SoDs kill things with minimal resources? You need what, 2-3 spells per encounter? Even a paralysis effect effectively "wins".
> Counting on damage for winning an encounter quickly really depends on the HP of the target. Against other casters they will rely on elemental defenses and similar spells; tankers will just have to take the blow, and rogue-like ones will throw luck to the winds and risk everything on that Evasion (for the Reflex saves, at least.. Mettle handles the other)

Usually level appropriate spells, however, and this takes a step from 2-3 spells to 1-2, even if they're 0 level spells.
This burns through energy resistance too quickly as well. Immunity is the only successful defense- and a critter needs all of them for that to matter.
PCs can't really take the shots either. This scales past warrior hit points, and evasion and mettle mean jack when you can toss No Save spells at people.
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