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Orion
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Post by Orion » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:36 pm

Baldur's Gate 2:
Keldorn, Anomen, and Jan Jansen are mandatory. Imoen and Valygar are good options for the remaining slots. After that it gets more subjective, but I recall having good luck with Minsc, Cernd, and Aerie. Yoshimo is really good but you can't keep him all game.
The hardest fights are all against wizards, dragons, and illithids. There is an amazingly good paladin-only holy sword that is too good to pass up, so you're either bringing Keldorn or playing a Paladin yourself. Both are good options; he has the best Paladin kit anyway (the antimagic inquisitor) but his dexterity sucks and he's kind of a dick, so replacing him with your PC is a decent choice. Unfortunately, Anomen is an enormous douche and he's completely indispensable.
Those guys handle basically everything your party actually needs. Jan can do all the locks and traps, Anomen raises dead, Keldorn kills mges, and you have two mages to buff everyone, throw down some dispel magic, and spam out the nukes. (Mostly single-target because the AOEs are a pain to use. Magic Missile stays relevant all game). An off-healer couldn't hurt, especially if they can raise a dead Anomen, but you don't need one.
That means that you're pretty much free to just use your PC for more DPS. I felt like my Monk was actually quite strong once he gained a few levels. If I can get fast movement in any CRPG, I generally do. I mentioned Paladin above. Fighter/Cleric is okay but Ranger/Cleric is probably better. People swear by Kensai but I find it too limiting. People also like Archer, which I haven't tried.
Playing a caster is fun in every game, of course. I highly recommend the Sorcerer. That might be counter-intuitive because you can rest so often you don't care much about spell slots, but I like it because it can be really hard to find scrolls of the spells you want. Knowing a smaller number of awesome spells can be better than scrounging. The biggest problem is that Jan is mandatory for traps, and Imoen is a major story character, so you don't really need another mage.
If you hate or are just sick of Jan, it might be tempting to play a thief. Single-classed thieves suck, so don't do that. Mage/Thief PCs aren't that much better than Jan. Cleric/Thieves have too many gear restrictions, so that means Fighter/Thief is your only option.
Your race will almost certainly be human because most of the best characters can only be human. If it's not human it's probably still set by your class. If you have a choice, be a dwarf. Apart from monks, paladins, and (IIRC) sorcerers, dual-classing is also human-restricted. It's a lot of work because you need to look up the max XP tables and compute out the level-mix you want and because there's a period of suck involved, but it allows you to have 2 classes and a special class kit, and to tailor your level mix as desired. It would probably be an awesome way to do a thief if you checked a guide to find out what level of thief skills you need.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:45 pm

Keldorn and Anomen are only "mandatory" if you're quite enamored with keeping some semblance of melee/magic user party balance in mind. Otherwise, Viconia can approximate both of their roles minus the melee for one less character slot, since she is a magic resistant cleric who casts dispel magic at a nice caster level due to being single classed. So, yeah, good characters, but I'm not so sure I'm in a rush to take them over Vicky and Edwin.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:28 pm

Yeah...
Baldur's Gate II is kinda my baby, and first off, you should probably get a fucktons of mods, and that will through any number of things off (unless you are playing on the re release, which I think you said you were, in which case FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCKKKKKKKK) also, it matters whether you have Throne of Baal, since there is way more XP in Shadows of Amn than you can ever use.
Some general comments:
1) Edwin is the Best.
2) Viconia is also great, and does all your tanking and boring melee fighting as well or better than anyone else, see here is the thing, 2e has a bunch of items called "Guantlet of X strength" which set your str to a number. Set. So you basically are polymorphing your Str stat anyway, because no one can be higher than 19 without the belt, and you can get 19 with belt, or 22, or 25 with a specific Hammer. So 12 str Clerics are still going to have the same strength as fighters, so fucking ignore that shit.
3) As far as your character goes, if you really want to be the most powerful, there are basically only 3 options: Mage/Thief, Sorcerer, or Wild Mage.
Thief is fucking brokenly good, you are going to place traps, because traps are the greatest thing in the game. They instagib dragons in large enough numbers, and every tough fight in the game except one (in Throne of Baal) can be won by placing traps and luring people into them. Also you get to level 2X and you get an epic ability, and you take "Use Any Item" and then you dual wield bullshit Paladin swords or whatever the fuck else you want.
The Sorcerer works because unlike 3e, there really aren't enough actually good spells that you are going to be using, or situational spells, to justify being a Wizard. Also the Sorcerer isn't a level behind. You are really just going to be spamming the same super spells over and over again, truthfully.
The wild mage is fucking hilarious. On every spellcast there is a 5% chance they roll on a table, and it does whatever the thing on the table says. So sometimes you cast fireball centered on yourself, and sometimes you cast the spell at double level, or the target has a save penalty.
That part is not good, and would be annoying if it were the only thing. The good part is that as a wild mage you get two spells that no one else does: One is a buff that gives you a bonus on your wild surge check (and higher numbers are usually better) and the other is a first level spell Nahal's Reckless Dweomer. When you cast that, you then pick from any spell you have in your spellbook, and cast that spell instead, but it automatically has a wild surge, and also you get +CL to your wild surge check. Between the field, and this spells bonus, at CL 30 you have a 60% chance of getting the effect "spell cast as normal" So you can turn all your goddam first level spells into 9th level spells spontaneously into whatever one works best for the situation.
This is fucking ridic. Also, when you get Wish, you will discover that it does not cost XP, also, if you choose the right options, you can choose to get a full rest and regain all your spells, so you basically have infinite spells that is one reason why Mages are the one true god, and all three of the real ultimate power characters are mages.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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Orion
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Post by Orion » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:41 pm

I'll admit I never really tried Viconia, but Anomen has 16 CON and some D10 fighter HD. Viconia has 8 CON. He's so close to full cleric progression that I find it really hard to believe Viconia gets anything that makes up for the HP.
I think Keldorn has a ranged dispel that instant-casts? And then his holy sword dispels on every swing. Sure, you don't need him, but I think siccing him on that fire shield stoneskin sphere of invulnerability mislead mage is more convenient than anything you would do with another caster.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:12 am

You mean like, other than the baked-in 65% Magic Resistance? Mind you, I'm not saying that Anomen is trash. Dual class Fighter-Cleric is a pretty defensible life choice in 2e. But ultimately Clerics can buff up to the point that they can survive on the front lines pretty much regardless of what their core stat line says, and with 19 base Dexterity it isn't even like Viconia's completely hopeless to begin with. Eventually you just reach a point where melee output is a relatively small part of what your Cleric does and at that point Viconia's MR easily justifies her hat being thrown into the ring.
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shau
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Post by shau » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:44 am

I have the enhanced edition for both games. They also include the expansions. Not sure if there is a convenient list of the changes they made anywhere.
Haven't made it to BG2 yet, but the plan is to import my fighter/illusionist. I am planning to make Imoen a permanent party member because I always snubbed her before. I am also taking Jan, because I can't BG2 without traps and need a real thief anyway. I was also planning on Keldorn, because I like the idea of a fighter type who is relevant to people who have real classes.
That's four of my slots right there. I got two fighter types and three arcanists, so the next obvious pick up is some sort of divine caster. Then I can rotate other party members in my last spot.
Off handedly, I would actually guess Aerie is the best divine NPC, but with three mages already that is not too enticing. Viconia is probably going to be a no go, because I am play a goody two shoes and she has Bioware evil for the sake of evil morality. I think you can change her with a romance, but I don't think gnomish dick is up to the job of making her foresake all her values like that. Nobody uses Cernd, except Orion apparently.
That leaves Anomen and Jaheira. Anomen's gone though the awkward part of being a dual class already and is now just a cleric with benefits. Plus he is supposed to talk with Keldorn. Jaheira gets ironskins, the ability to use additional attack weapons, and a resurrect to fill the gaping hole in the cleric skills set. Additionally, I can see how painfully Bioware can write about banging a widow a few days after she finds her husband's corpse. So far looks like the thread favors Anomen.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:15 am

> shau wrote:Jaheira gets ironskins, the ability to use additional attack weapons, and a resurrect to fill the gaping hole in the cleric skills set. Additionally, I can see how painfully Bioware can write about banging a widow a few days after she finds her husband's corpse.

Aw, come on, shau, you're not tempted by the prospect of romancing one of the most obnoxious NPC allies in Bioware canon?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Orion
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Post by Orion » Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:44 pm

Cernd gets bad eventually, but there's a little window where because of the druid xp charts he's the best divine caster you get. Then he gets screwed by the druid xp charts. At no point is he actually good at fighting.
Last edited by Orion on Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:07 pm

I've never been able to truly relate to Jaheira hate because she becomes so boss mechanically--I just plain like the druid list better than the cleric list since Iron Skins and summons are so amenable to pre-buffing while the bug swarms and nature's beauty feature no friendly fire. The list is a smidge too backloaded to really shine in BG1, but in BG2 Jaheira becomes a really formidable one woman show when it comes to tanking and disruption. Of all the NPCs I find her kit to be the easiest to solo with aside from mages and trap spammers.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:27 pm

If I'm playing a party-based roleplaying game where my characters have individual personalities, I want a team of funny and relateable and sympathetic characters more than I want a team of people who are numerically badass. Because, hey, most of these games only require a modest level of optimization and I don't have to go balls-to-the-wall with a Jaheira/Edwin/Imoen/Sarevok/Jan crew to complete the game as intended. And, let's face it, I can always just hack the game to give Keldorn and Minsc extra stat points and abilities. Hacking in a non-loathsome personality for Jaheira and Aerie is much harder.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:43 pm

Honestly, I find Minsc to be roughly as irritating as Jaheira in the grand scheme of things. I mean, let's be real here: Baldur's Gate's writing is good by crpg standards, but we're talking about a pretty fuckin' low bar to clear on that end, and frankly, most of my favorite fiction doesn't deal in particularly sympathetic characters anyway. I don't need things to be grim derp to be entertained, but at the same time I'm like 1000% aware that I'm just watching some story play out, and that I don't have to be concerned over whether or not these assholes would make good drinking buddies. If there's anything I really hold against Jaheira or Aerie it's the voice acting. Otherwise I'm just all "Yeah, yeah, whatever, make with the heals."
Last edited by Whipstitch on Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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RufusCorvus
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Post by RufusCorvus » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:06 pm

The only times I found Aerie or Jaheira unbearable was during their romances... but I tend to feel that way about all BioWare romances. As just party members, they were a little annoying, but nothing I found unforgiveable.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:21 am

I grabbed BG2Enhanced on Steam because 25% off and it gets high praise - indeed, one chap I know likes 2Ed and considers it and PS:T to be the only good games that actually use that ruleset.
Anyway, when Kaelik suggested Mage/Thief, is that "Be an Elf, play a Mage/Thief dual class", or is that "Be a Human, play a Mage (or Thief) then Multi-class into the other"?
Also is there any particular reason, if going Cleric, to not pick one of the three deity-specific ones? The only listed drawback is "must be X alignment", and it gives you a non-zero benefit in the form of a couple of spell-likes.

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Orion
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Post by Orion » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:25 am

Human dual-class Thief -> Mage is probably better if you optimize it, once you finish it. The hardest locks and taps in the game are only so hard, and you don't need a maxed-out Thief to crack them. At some point jumping out of thief to progressing magic faster will be a good idea. Also, you get more HP when you're overwriting and not averaging, and you can be Swashbuckler if you want to.
However, going elf or gnome multiclass is totally fine. You get to the play the character you want from the beginning, don't have to lose half your abilities at any point, and don't have to stress about when to make the jump. Gnome is probably better because more spell slots, although perhaps I'm forgetting about a super good elf-only item or something.
As for cleric -- yes, there is no downside to the themed cleric kits, and so there is no reason to play a vanilla Cleric. The question you need to ask is whether Cleric of Talos is better than multiclass Cleric/Mage or Cleric of Helm is better than multiclass Cleric/Fighter.
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RelentlessImp
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Post by RelentlessImp » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:30 am

> Anyway, when Kaelik suggested Mage/Thief, is that "Be an Elf, play a Mage/Thief dual class", or is that "Be a Human, play a Mage (or Thief) then Multi-class into the other"?

It's the former. Be an Elf or Gnome, be a Multi-Class Mage/Thief or Illusionist/Thief. Being human means dual-classing, not a multi-class character.
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:54 am

It is multiclass, because you want to get epic abilities introduced in Throne of Bhaal for both the Thief and Wizard class. Also you want to scale your trap numbers and damage for the uber magic resist bosses that are strong enough to kill your Planatar or that you fight before you get a Planatar.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:31 am

Cool, thanks. Three more questions now:
1. What are the earliest places for getting a magic katana? I know the adventuring store right next to you when Imoen is arrested has one for around 26 times as much gold as you have by then, but even a basic +1 "can hurt shadows" one would be grand.
2. What sort of numbers should I aim for as starting values for Thief skills? It just says "Here's a pile of skill points, go for it" without saying "A locked door typically has a DC of X. Most traps in the first area have a DC of Y." When I tested a Thief/Mage out, they died to the very first trap (the poison one in the painting next to the starting chamber).
3. Once you're in the city, you have a whole bunch of places you can go and quests you can do. I assume staying away from the graveyard is a grand idea for a while, but are there any particular "Fuck you, you should have telepathically known not to go here" locations?

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Shady314
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Post by Shady314 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:39 am

> Koumei wrote: 2. What sort of numbers should I aim for as starting values for Thief skills? It just says "Here's a pile of skill points, go for it" without saying "A locked door typically has a DC of X. Most traps in the first area have a DC of Y." When I tested a Thief/Mage out, they died to the very first trap (the poison one in the painting next to the starting chamber).

Look at Imoen's numbers in BG2. Her skills in traps are good enough to take you through all of BG2 and probably TOB. In BG:EE they are Open Locks 25, Find Traps 35, Pick Pockets 25, Move Silently 35, Hide In Shadows 15 but I don't know BG2EE.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:22 am

What's the least-annoying character in the series then?
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CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:43 am

> Koumei wrote:Cool, thanks. Three more questions now:
> 1. What are the earliest places for getting a magic katana? I know the adventuring store right next to you when Imoen is arrested has one for around 26 times as much gold as you have by then, but even a basic +1 "can hurt shadows" one would be grand.

If you think your party has enough AoE lockdown you can go to the compound in the temple district. That's kind of a tough fight early game but you get one of the best katanas.
Alternatively I think the guys at the top floor of the tavern in the Promenade drop katanas but it's been a while.
Now I want to play again...

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Shady314
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Post by Shady314 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:06 am

> CapnTthePirateG wrote: If you think your party has enough AoE lockdown you can go to the compound in the temple district. That's kind of a tough fight early game but you get one of the best katanas.

It's the only good katana in the original BG2. Don't know if EE added more. If you are using katanas this is the one a person would use throughout not just all of BG2 but also all of TOB (it can be upgraded in TOB). It is very good.
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RufusCorvus
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Post by RufusCorvus » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:52 am

> Shady314 wrote:It's the only good katana in the original BG2. Don't know if EE added more. If you are using katanas this is the one a person would use throughout not just all of BG2 but also all of TOB (it can be upgraded in TOB). It is very good.

I'm pretty sure the Celestial Fury upgrade is from this mod. I remember my CF-wielding Swashbuckler needing to diversify for some of the TOB bosses.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:54 am

Do those things work with EE?
In other news, I made a grand discovery: one fence (for the sub-faction of shadow thieves that the boss wants you to gather dirt on) sells potions of master thievery. Possibly without limit. Anyway, they stack when you quaff a whole bunch - 3 or 4 should be fine even for Yoshimo who sucks at stealing things. Anyway, you can also steal from him. And because he's a fence, you can sell stolen goods back to him. So um, I guess you can just have all the money that way.
Other fences are similar, but don't sell you the potions. And of course, you can at least steal a bunch of good shit from other stores, as long as they're not specially marked as "No Stealing" (like the lady who sells Planescape stuff).

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shau
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Post by shau » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:52 am

> Koumei wrote:Do those things work with EE?
> In other news, I made a grand discovery: one fence (for the sub-faction of shadow thieves that the boss wants you to gather dirt on) sells potions of master thievery. Possibly without limit. Anyway, they stack when you quaff a whole bunch - 3 or 4 should be fine even for Yoshimo who sucks at stealing things. Anyway, you can also steal from him. And because he's a fence, you can sell stolen goods back to him. So um, I guess you can just have all the money that way.
> Other fences are similar, but don't sell you the potions. And of course, you can at least steal a bunch of good shit from other stores, as long as they're not specially marked as "No Stealing" (like the lady who sells Planescape stuff).

That brings me back. That's pretty much the first thing I did on my solo thief runs. Of course, then you have to feel bad for not busting Imoen out when you had the cash ages ago.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:19 pm

CELESTIAL FURY IS MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE!
Ahem. I mean, yes. I turned their trick against them: Yoshimo set his traps at the bottom of the stairs, we stepped up, enemies noticed us, we ran back down stairs without crossing their traps. And then enemies followed and did their best Pinhead impression. The face full of spikes, not the manner of speaking. Trap, Lure, Divide and Conquer makes a lot of fights easy. For everything else, Jaheira has Insect Plague.
Probably not ready to tackle the red dragon, I was no match for him when I tried it before the sword. Maybe if I get Hexxat I can add more snares to the pre-fight ritual? This has been a high-reputation LG playthrough, but I'm guessing it won't be too bad a hit if she joins?
And on the topic of reputation and "doing the right thing", with Shadow Thieves vs Vampires, is it really a case of just taking the less bad option there?

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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