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Murtak
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Post by Murtak » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:00 pm

> RandomCasualty2 wrote:But here's the thing. You don't want to have a 50/50 battle like that in an RPG. Pretty much ever. Because a 50% chance of dying is unacceptable in an RPG with continuing characters. Now you can do something similar to that with systems with PC perks by just denying the enemy the PC advantages. For instance in Shadowrun, you could fight a runner with your same stats, yet he has no edge. That creates the illusion of a fair fight.
> But it's important to remember that you pretty much never want a fair fight. Because it means to make the PCs have decent odds of survival your enemies have to use bad tactics.

Shadowrun works because the world is asymetrical. Edge or no edge, pit a group of runners against their counterparts a couple of times and the PCs die. If they face a prepared dragon or vampire they die. If they face a main battle tank they die. So runners face mainly security guards, drones and the odd spirit. The dangerous part is not the initial opposition but reinforcements.
you can have the same in DnD, with numerous weak opponents, a neverending stream of undead, or a couple of guards who can call in reinforcements which could actually challenge the players. In that case plot armor comes in the form of having that next dozens skeletons arrive a round or two later.
Alternatively you can keep playing as before and simply use weaker opponents. Use wyverns and hydras instead of dragons, ghouls instead of mummies and simply add special effects. The net result will be same, without any need for plot armor.
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:12 pm

> Murtak wrote: Shadowrun works because the world is asymetrical.

4E is asymetrical too. Just in a different way.
As far as analsis of Shadowrun foes, it's going to be different because it's a raid game. The key principle in a raid game is as you said to avoid reinforcements. That's very different from a heroic game like D&D where you're basically going in there to kill everything. In SR, you are okay with fighting the reinforcemetns to be a losing proposition, since you're supposed to run as part of the game setup. In D&D, this isn't the case.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:11 am

I have always played with DnD PCs as Exalted, prior to Birthright, prior to Exalted, and so have no problem with "if you have PC levels you're some sort of badass different from everyone else".
Maybe they ARE the sons of gods. Might as well be.
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MGuy
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Post by MGuy » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:05 am

I always thought that was just the way it should be played. I always emphasize to players that they are the best of the best. Live or die they are always "The Chosen Ones". Why would anyone even care to play it a different way?
The first rule of Fatclub. Don't Talk about Fatclub..
If you want a game modded right you have to mod it yourself.

> MGuy wrote:Finally a thread about fighters!

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:51 am

> MGuy wrote:I always thought that was just the way it should be played. I always emphasize to players that they are the best of the best. Live or die they are always "The Chosen Ones". Why would anyone even care to play it a different way?

Because I'd rather my characters be Druids from the Forest who just happened to be smarter than other druids and therefore more awesome, instead "the chosen one"
I'd rather be a normal person who does good things because he made smart choices than a chosen one who was destined to X.
I can't understand why anyone would want to be the Chosen ones ever.
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MGuy
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Post by MGuy » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:23 am

Well I'd always expect the PCs to be the center of the story. Whether they are just better than others or they are destined to do X , most people I run for always like their characters beyond the norm. You can be normal every day why not play the game as if you're number one?
The first rule of Fatclub. Don't Talk about Fatclub..
If you want a game modded right you have to mod it yourself.

> MGuy wrote:Finally a thread about fighters!

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Quantumboost
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Post by Quantumboost » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:04 am

> MGuy wrote:Well I'd always expect the PCs to be the center of the story. Whether they are just better than others or they are destined to do X , most people I run for always like their characters beyond the norm. You can be normal every day why not play the game as if you're number one?

Of course the PCs are the center of the story. They're the protagonists. Where the problem lies is when "being the protagonists" is the actual in-game reasoning for their beyond-normal powers. You don't have "The Chosen Ones" with Superman, or Hercules, or Mega Man X. Their abilities are based on specific, in-setting phlebotinum (being a super sun-powered alien, having Zeus for a daddy, being the best roboticist ever's greatest masterpiece). None of their powers are out of line with what someone else with the same basic origin story would have.
In the "Chosen Ones" scenario as described by others, the actual reasoning behind the PCs having their super powers is "they're the PCs". Not "they are the half-angel magical laser princess of the planet Fhqwgads, an eldritch cyborg from the future trained in martial arts, and the last disciple of the Diamond Monkey style of swordplay" and happen to be the protagonists of the current story (i.e. your campaign), but actually "you are the only people in the world who are super special like this for no reason".
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:09 am

> Quantumboost wrote: In the "Chosen Ones" scenario as described by others, the actual reasoning behind the PCs having their super powers is "they're the PCs". Not "they are the half-angel magical laser princess of the planet Fhqwgads, an eldritch cyborg from the future trained in martial arts, and the last disciple of the Diamond Monkey style of swordplay" and happen to be the protagonists of the current story (i.e. your campaign), but actually "you are the only people in the world who are super special like this for no reason".

Being a generic RPG it can't provide you with a reason. That's for the PCs to come up with themselves.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:18 am

I see it as more of a happy accident that any particular PC group survives most combats.
GMs should throw in rival adventuring parties and corpses of previous failed parties as much as possible to remind players of their RPG-mortality as well as warn of life-threatening encounters.
If observant, players could note that yes indeed, the fabled Red Claw gang did charge in to the slime pits underequipped, and this is what happened to them (steaming piles of bones).
I don't see that as plot armor. They're not Chosen as much as survivors.
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IGTN
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Post by IGTN » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:17 pm

> RandomCasualty2 wrote:

> > Quantumboost wrote: In the "Chosen Ones" scenario as described by others, the actual reasoning behind the PCs having their super powers is "they're the PCs". Not "they are the half-angel magical laser princess of the planet Fhqwgads, an eldritch cyborg from the future trained in martial arts, and the last disciple of the Diamond Monkey style of swordplay" and happen to be the protagonists of the current story (i.e. your campaign), but actually "you are the only people in the world who are super special like this for no reason".

> Being a generic RPG it can't provide you with a reason. That's for the PCs to come up with themselves.

The difference between 3e and 4e isn't that 3e gave you a reason why you were so awesome and 4e didn't (barring specific classes). The difference is that in 3e you're awesome, but completely identical to other awesome people, and in 4e you play by completely different rules as everyone else, even your evil twin and your rival during apprenticeship. Nobody's complaining about the 3e way. If you played by different rules for an in-world reason, that'd be fine. If you played by the same rules (mostly), just better (i.e., edge), that'd be fine. D&D4 does neither, and instead makes you arbitrarily different from the entire rest of the world without explanation.
"No, you can't burn the inn down. It's made of solid fire."
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IGTN
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Post by IGTN » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:19 pm

> RandomCasualty2 wrote:

> > Quantumboost wrote: In the "Chosen Ones" scenario as described by others, the actual reasoning behind the PCs having their super powers is "they're the PCs". Not "they are the half-angel magical laser princess of the planet Fhqwgads, an eldritch cyborg from the future trained in martial arts, and the last disciple of the Diamond Monkey style of swordplay" and happen to be the protagonists of the current story (i.e. your campaign), but actually "you are the only people in the world who are super special like this for no reason".

> Being a generic RPG it can't provide you with a reason. That's for the PCs to come up with themselves.

The difference between 3e and 4e isn't that 3e gave you a reason why you were so awesome and 4e didn't (barring specific classes). The difference is that in 3e you're awesome, but completely identical to other awesome people, and in 4e you play by completely different rules as everyone else, even your evil twin and your rival during apprenticeship. Nobody's complaining about the 3e way. If you played by different rules for an in-world reason, that'd be fine. If you played by the same rules (mostly), just better (i.e., edge), that'd be fine. D&D4 does neither, and instead makes you arbitrarily different from the entire rest of the world without explanation.
"No, you can't burn the inn down. It's made of solid fire."
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:42 pm

> IGTN wrote: The difference between 3e and 4e isn't that 3e gave you a reason why you were so awesome and 4e didn't (barring specific classes). The difference is that in 3e you're awesome, but completely identical to other awesome people, and in 4e you play by completely different rules as everyone else, even your evil twin and your rival during apprenticeship.

The reason in 3E is: "You took levels in a PC class.", the reason in 4E is: "You have levels in a PC class."
The only real difference is that as a rule in 4E, NPCs don't use PC classes and instead use their own rules.

> Nobody's complaining about the 3e way.

Are you kidding? Lots of people (myself included) complain about the 3E way. It's just horribly inefficient for designing NPCs. And while it may give you that warm and fuzzy "everyone's equal" feeling inside, that does little to compensate for the fact that it is slower than a cart with square wheels being pulled by a 3 legged horse.
Warm and fuzzy feelings are nice and all, but I wouldn't trade that for an extra 10 hours of preparation required for each adventure, and the restriction that you cannot improvise at all, because you can't create NPCs on the fly.
The 3E system is ass.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:01 am

> RC2 wrote: Warm and fuzzy feelings are nice and all, but I wouldn't trade that for an extra 10 hours of preparation required for each adventure, and the restriction that you cannot improvise at all, because you can't create NPCs on the fly.

While I am willing to concede that 3E NPC creation takes longer than 4E NPC creation I seriously do not appreciate you constantly exaggerating the numbers to the point of creating a strawman.
We've been over this before. Several times.
So stop it.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:26 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote: While I am willing to concede that 3E NPC creation takes longer than 4E NPC creation I seriously do not appreciate you constantly exaggerating the numbers to the point of creating a strawman.

Honestly, it's not a strawman. 10 hours per adventure is actually about what it's going to take if you have any mid to high level adventure with a lot of NPCs. In fact, 10 hours is probably a low end estimate if your adventure involves a lot of casters, or is longer than say 3-4 encounters.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:53 am

> RandomCasualty2 wrote:

> > Lago PARANOIA wrote: While I am willing to concede that 3E NPC creation takes longer than 4E NPC creation I seriously do not appreciate you constantly exaggerating the numbers to the point of creating a strawman.

> Honestly, it's not a strawman. 10 hours per adventure is actually about what it's going to take if you have any mid to high level adventure with a lot of NPCs. In fact, 10 hours is probably a low end estimate if your adventure involves a lot of casters, or is longer than say 3-4 encounters.

I just want to go out on record again and say that I run pretty much every game I run without a net. That is, I don't pregenerate stat blocks for Shadowrun, I don't pregen stat blocks for Dungeons and Dragons. I can almost do it with Champions, but not quite.
One of the big reasons that I won't play 4e is because the lack of building blocks means that I can't assemble NPCs and monsters on the fly in my head during the game. I can run 3e without cards or notes just fine. I can't do that with 4e. I honestly have no idea what I would even do with 10 hours of number crunching on 3rd edition NPCs.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:10 am

In my case, the time sink for NPC creation is the act of writing it out. Whether I design it as I go along or transcribe from a book onto scrap paper, it takes about as long for either.
Last edited by virgil on Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:23 am

> FrankTrollman wrote: I honestly have no idea what I would even do with 10 hours of number crunching on 3rd edition NPCs.

Well honestly, I mean you just take how long it takes you to make a PC, and then multiply that by however many NPCs you need to make.
I mean I've had some PCs take over 4 hours to create a single 14th level wizard.
Now I have no doubt that you can do that faster, because you're much more familiar with the rules. But you're the exception, not the rule. I don't really have every feat and ability memorized to the point that I can create say an effective NPC bard or paladin without dumpster diving.
Even just filling out lists of spells prepared (or gods forbid, a wizard's entire spellbook), takes a lot of real time, as does buying magical items.
And honestly I don't have half that shit memorized to the point that I don't need a book. And I'm the most proficient person with rules in my group. That's just unacceptable for a rules system.
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MGuy
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Post by MGuy » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:18 am

Well how detailed are you making your npcs? I am ok with the rules but I am far from knowing every spell and feat. However as long as I know generally WHAT the pc is there for and a tidbit about what it can do I don't need to flesh the rest out most of the time. If the PCS end up fighting them for whatever reason (as it tends to happen a lot) I just need to know the kind of damage output and defenses such an npc would need to have.Like say its a 10th level warrior. I'd just have to think: Is he a strong guy or a weak guy? If I just wanted to throw stats on him I'd have him at 90ish hp, an AC of 30-35, Attack of about +20 or so, and he'd deal about 15-30 damage per hit. I regularly wouldn't need to think much more than that. Slap on some saves and he's golden. Wizards might take a little more time than that but I rule that they are a rare breed. Sorcerers and Clerics being more common (and thankfully easier to generate)
I do take 10hours or so to set up but its not because I'm busy with stats. My time is sucked up by fleshing out the world around my pcs. I try to have an answer for what's in every direction with plenty of flavor text and chances for character development. But then again I've never had any hard number crunchers in any group I've run so I can't say the light hand I give the npcs that don't really would work for everybody. If an npc becomes more important by for whatever reason I have no shame with jokingly complaining that now I'm going to have to give him REAL numbers and setting that aside for later.
As for 4E I agree with Frank.
The first rule of Fatclub. Don't Talk about Fatclub..
If you want a game modded right you have to mod it yourself.

> MGuy wrote:Finally a thread about fighters!

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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:31 am

> MGuy wrote:Well how detailed are you making your npcs? I am ok with the rules but I am far from knowing every spell and feat. However as long as I know generally WHAT the pc is there for and a tidbit about what it can do I don't need to flesh the rest out most of the time. If the PCS end up fighting them for whatever reason (as it tends to happen a lot) I just need to know the kind of damage output and defenses such an npc would need to have.Like say its a 10th level warrior. I'd just have to think: Is he a strong guy or a weak guy? If I just wanted to throw stats on him I'd have him at 90ish hp, an AC of 30-35, Attack of about +20 or so, and he'd deal about 15-30 damage per hit. I regularly wouldn't need to think much more than that. Slap on some saves and he's golden.

And this is.... the 4E monster generation system in a nutshell. Just slap some numbers on stuff based on a table and go.
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erik
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Post by erik » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:42 am

RC, there is definitely something wrong with your methods if it is taking you even 2 hours to create a stable of 3e NPCs for an adventure.
I suspect you're probably min-maxing them and belaboring the decisions of each and every spell on down to cantrips. Don't do that.
Make a simple character who does what you want, pick the signature spells/feats you have in mind and then just randomly fill in the blanks. Likewise with equipment, pick standard equipment and some signature piece if necessary. Doing that you can create NPCs in just a few minutes.
I used to do it the crappy way, detailing them down to the tiniest details, and it was a complete waste of time. Amusing voices and quirks will be a lot more memorable than NPCs whose intricate details are only known to yourself. I'm not recommending you just make shit up like the 4e design. I'm just saying, go generic whlie picking a few things to be specific and you're set.
[edit: I will grant at least that 3e editions should have had a sidebar with that exact advice in their NPC section. It would save a lot of noob DMs a lot of time. they probably figured that most folk would have the sense of mind to simply use the easy NPC tables and tweak them gently rather than building min-maxed monstrosities from scratch.]
Last edited by erik on Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RandomCasualty2
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Post by RandomCasualty2 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:52 am

> clikml wrote:RC, there is definitely something wrong with your methods if it is taking you even 2 hours to create a stable of 3e NPCs for an adventure.
> I suspect you're probably min-maxing them and belaboring the decisions of each and every spell on down to cantrips. Don't do that.

Well yes, I am min/maxing them.
But that's because you pretty much have to. The major drawback of NPC = PC is that you have to jump through the same hoops to make your NPC effective that PCs do. So if you want a challenging encounter, you absolutely do have to min/max your NPCs.
If your PCs are uberchargers, druids and wizards, your NPCs better damn well have their own tricks to counter that.
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erik
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Post by erik » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:52 am

If you need to create advantages to challenge players then you are better off using terrain and mooks to shape the battlefield to your liking. Grabbing a couple bonuses pales to tactical advantages.
If players can be awesome with a single classed wizard, druid or cleric then so can you... especially with preparation and favorable battlefields.
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MartinHarper
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Post by MartinHarper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:36 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:One of the big reasons that I won't play 4e is because the lack of building blocks means that I can't assemble NPCs and monsters on the fly in my head during the game. I can run 3e without cards or notes just fine. I can't do that with 4e.

This surprises me. When you try to create a 4e NPC/Monster quickly, what slows it down?
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Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:17 am

> MartinHarper wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote:One of the big reasons that I won't play 4e is because the lack of building blocks means that I can't assemble NPCs and monsters on the fly in my head during the game. I can run 3e without cards or notes just fine. I can't do that with 4e.

> This surprises me. When you try to create a 4e NPC/Monster quickly, what slows it down?

The lack of building block tools.
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MartinHarper
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Post by MartinHarper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 pm

> Caedrus wrote:The lack of building block tools.

Yeah, I read Frank's post. I was hoping for something a little more concrete than that. What building block tools are missing? At what stage in the creation process?
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