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## AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

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Rawbeard
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### AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

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Post by Rawbeard » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:09 pm

I'm trying to read through the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook thingy and... THIS SHIT is maddening. I'll use this thread to toss in some questions I'm to stupid to answer myself. That book... crazy... I... ARGH
Ok, first thing that totally threw me off is casters. Who knew, right? I'm used to the 3rd Edition per day stuff, but although the texts sometimes refer to daily limits, spell preparations seems to be "you got the time, you prepare it. Sleeping is for suckers". Is this really the case, or did I miss something?
More questions will follow... if I don't burn this evil tome of madness first.
To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
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fbmf
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### Re: AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

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Post by fbmf » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:51 pm

> Rawbeard wrote:I'm trying to read through the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook thingy and... THIS SHIT is maddening. I'll use this thread to toss in some questions I'm to stupid to answer myself. That book... crazy... I... ARGH
> Ok, first thing that totally threw me off is casters. Who knew, right? I'm used to the 3rd Edition per day stuff, but although the texts sometimes refer to daily limits, spell preparations seems to be "you got the time, you prepare it. Sleeping is for suckers". Is this really the case, or did I miss something?
> More questions will follow... if I don't burn this evil tome of madness first.

That's how we always played.
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Rawbeard
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Post by Rawbeard » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:42 pm

Sounds ok. I don't dislike it, just got... weird.
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PoliteNewb
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### Re: AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

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Post by PoliteNewb » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:55 pm

The most explicit reference I can find is on page 81 of the PH (this is the original printing, not the black-cover version).

> The number of spells a wizard can memorize is given by his level; he can memorize the same spell more than once, but each memorization counts as one spell toward his daily memorization limit.
> Memorization is not a thing that happens immediately. The wizard must have a clear head gained from a restful night's sleep and then has to spend time studying his spellbooks.

I'd say that at least strongly implies that you can only memorize spells once per day, when you wake up.
I am judging the philosophies and decisions you have presented in this thread. The ones I have seen look bad, and also appear to be the fruit of a poisonous tree that has produced only madness and will continue to produce only madness.
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believe in one hand and shit in the other and see which ones fills up quicker. it will be the one you are full of, shit.
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Juton
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Post by Juton » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:52 pm

I'm curious why 2e? Some people like the simplicity of Basic 1e and others like the rigour and soundness of 3e, but I rarely hear people choose 2e over the alternatives.
Oh thank God, finally a thread about how Fighters in D&D suck. This was a long time coming. - Schwarzkopf
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fbmf
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### Re: AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

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Post by fbmf » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:05 pm

> PoliteNewb wrote:The most explicit reference I can find is on page 81 of the PH (this is the original printing, not the black-cover version).

> > The number of spells a wizard can memorize is given by his level; he can memorize the same spell more than once, but each memorization counts as one spell toward his daily memorization limit.
> > Memorization is not a thing that happens immediately. The wizard must have a clear head gained from a restful night's sleep and then has to spend time studying his spellbooks.

> I'd say that at least strongly implies that you can only memorize spells once per day, when you wake up.

No it doesn't. It implies you can only memorize so many spells per day, but, so long as you got a good night's sleep, you could memorize whenever you felt like it.
Game On,
fbmf
Last edited by fbmf on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:16 pm

As far as preparing spells multiple times per day, we played it that you still needed 8 hours of sleep for each preparation period. So that put a natural limit on how many times you could prepare a day.

> Juton wrote:I'm curious why 2e?

Almost certainly nostalgia. I.e., that's the version the DM grew up playing the most.
But there were some things in 2E that were improvements over 1E. Like thieves being able to assign skill points, a less retarded bard class, specialty priests, specialist wizards, THAC0, etc.
Wasn't there a "say something nice about 2E" thread once upon a time?
Last edited by hogarth on Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PoliteNewb
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### Re: AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

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Post by PoliteNewb » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:02 pm

> fbmf wrote: No it doesn't. It implies you can only memorize so many spells per day, but, so long as you got a good night's sleep, you could memorize whenever you felt like it.
> Game On,
> fbmf

If that's how you read it...I dont. If you wake up and spend 5 hours hiking across the countryside and killing goblins, you no longer have "a clear head gained from a restful night's sleep". You have a tired mind from hiking and goblin-killing.
At the least, you need to do it relatively shortly after having a long restful sleep, without doing anything tiring or mentally trying in the meantime (which includes "casting spells").
I am judging the philosophies and decisions you have presented in this thread. The ones I have seen look bad, and also appear to be the fruit of a poisonous tree that has produced only madness and will continue to produce only madness.
--AngelFromAnotherPin
believe in one hand and shit in the other and see which ones fills up quicker. it will be the one you are full of, shit.
--Shadzar
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Rawbeard
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Post by Rawbeard » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:10 pm

Nostalgia is pretty much the reason. The community I have access to is very weird, so I pick whatever works and suprisingly this group works. So I started to brush up on what little 2e I know. Jezuz. I wasnt surpised about the inconsitency that is Weapon Specialization, but that spell per day/at a time thing... holy crap.
By the way I am the lucky guy to play a Fighter. Yay me! At least on first glance it seems to be less shit than 3e Fighter. Save progression alone makes me wonder WTF happend in the edition change.
Thanks to the recent OSSR I'd like to push my GM into letting me play a fighter/psionicist (I'm a Dwarf, they can do it, that's all the thought that went into this). Is this worth it? Multiclassing seems like a no brainer, but not quite sure if I grasp all the horrible drawbacks of not having Weapon Specialization anymore.
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PoliteNewb
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Post by PoliteNewb » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:07 am

> Rawbeard wrote:Nostalgia is pretty much the reason. The community I have access to is very weird, so I pick whatever works and suprisingly this group works. So I started to brush up on what little 2e I know. Jezuz. I wasnt surpised about the inconsitency that is Weapon Specialization, but that spell per day/at a time thing... holy crap.
> By the way I am the lucky guy to play a Fighter. Yay me! At least on first glance it seems to be less shit than 3e Fighter. Save progression alone makes me wonder WTF happend in the edition change.
> Thanks to the recent OSSR I'd like to push my GM into letting me play a fighter/psionicist (I'm a Dwarf, they can do it, that's all the thought that went into this). Is this worth it? Multiclassing seems like a no brainer, but not quite sure if I grasp all the horrible drawbacks of not having Weapon Specialization anymore.

Depends on a couple questions:
1.) What's your Str score? Or if you haven't rolled yet, what chargen method are you using?
If you have 18/% Str, you might be able to do without Wep Spec and still dish out some reasonable damage.
The main advantage of Wep Spec, though, is the increased attack rate...getting an additional attack every other round is pretty fly.
2.) What level are you starting at, and what is your prospect for leveling up?
If you are starting at 1st level and/or intend to raise more than a couple levels in this campaign, multiclassing is going to slow down your progression. Might still be worth it, though.
Psionicist is not a terrible class, but you need to have the right stats for it, and you need to pick good powers. Doing it as a fighter will be extra tough, because you really want your best stat in Str, which won't help you be a better psion. On the plus side, if you're a dwarf fighter, you will probably want/have a high Con, which actually WILL help you be a decent psion, if you go for psychometabolism. The downside is you're still going to need to burn good stats in Int/Wis in order to have decent PSPs.
Good Con-based powers include Energy Containment, Adrenalin control, Biofeedback, Chemical Simulation, Detonate, and Inertial Barrier.
Long story short...I do not recommend multiclassing fighter/psion unless you can be assured of getting at least 3-4 high stats (15+), with at least one 18.
I am judging the philosophies and decisions you have presented in this thread. The ones I have seen look bad, and also appear to be the fruit of a poisonous tree that has produced only madness and will continue to produce only madness.
--AngelFromAnotherPin
believe in one hand and shit in the other and see which ones fills up quicker. it will be the one you are full of, shit.
--Shadzar
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shadzar
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Post by shadzar » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:16 am

as most wanted to play it, 8 hours of sleep or less for elves, then you could memorize spells. emulating the way it was done in the SSI gold box series of games and continuing how it was in 1st.
out of curiosity, which 2e books are you using? 1989~1995, or the black covers from 1996~1999?
to counter the 1st printing books, the black covers mention nothing about sleep.

> 2e PHB Chapter 3 wrote:Spells gather and shape mystical energies; the procedures involved are very demanding, bizarre, and intricate. Before a wizard can actually cast a spell, he must memorize its arcane formula. This locks an energy pattern for that particular spell into his mind. Once he has the spell memorized, it remains in his memory until he uses the exact combination of gestures, words, and materials that triggers the release of this energy pattern. Upon casting, the energy of the spell is spent, wiped clean from the wizard's mind. The wizard cannot cast that spell again until he returns to his spell book and memorizes it again.
> Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

here is the black cover version of the "clear head" section

> 2e DMO:HLC Chapter 3 wrote: Memorizing a spell is a difficult task that requires a clear head from a good night’s sleep and 10 minutes of effort per level of the spell (see the Player’s Handbook, Chapter 7).
> Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

then following that to chapter 7 in the PHB black covers you find...

> 2e PHB Chapter 7 wrote:The number of spells a wizard can memorize is given by his level (see Table 21); he can memorize the same spell more than once, but each memorization counts as one spell toward his daily memorization limit. Part of a wizard's intelligence can be seen in the careful selection of spells he has memorized.
> Memorization is not a thing that happens immediately. The wizard must have a clear head gained from a restful night's sleep and then has to spend time studying his spell books. The amount of study time needed is 10 minutes per level of the spell being memorized. Thus, a 9th-level spell (the most powerful) would require 90 minutes of careful study. Clearly, high-level spellcasters do not lightly change their memorized spells.
> Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Play the game, not the rules.

> Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.

> Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.

good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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PoliteNewb
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Post by PoliteNewb » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:33 am

Shad...WTF, really?
#1, I pretty much already quoted the same shit you just quoted.
#2, NO, that was not the way it worked in 1E...in 1E you actually could memorize spells multiple times per day, if they were low-level. You could re-memorize 1st and 2nd level spells with only 4 hours of rest (it says "complete rest, usually sleep", but not definitely always sleep). 1E DMG, p. 40.
I am judging the philosophies and decisions you have presented in this thread. The ones I have seen look bad, and also appear to be the fruit of a poisonous tree that has produced only madness and will continue to produce only madness.
--AngelFromAnotherPin
believe in one hand and shit in the other and see which ones fills up quicker. it will be the one you are full of, shit.
--Shadzar
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shadzar
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Post by shadzar » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:13 am

> PoliteNewb wrote:Shad...WTF, really?
> #1, I pretty much already quoted the same shit you just quoted.
> #2, NO, that was not the way it worked in 1E...in 1E you actually could memorize spells multiple times per day, if they were low-level. You could re-memorize 1st and 2nd level spells with only 4 hours of rest (it says "complete rest, usually sleep", but not definitely always sleep). 1E DMG, p. 40.

1. im tired, i was tired when i skimmed this thread.
2. someone, seemingly you said "the original not he black books" and presented a quote.
3. someone disputes that as being the way it was played.
4. i use AD&DCR2.x CD-ROM to present the EXACT duplicate from the black books to corroborate with the original.
5. i answered the OP prior to providing quotes upon which the dispute was found.
ergo: anyone has both versions of 2e to see the "clear head" bit from the books.
black books just have stuff still a bit split up, but less so than 1st edition. you still have to hunt 2 chapters to find how spells work, rather than finding out n the class section the method for which you actually memorize them.
1st printing should be the same, but i dont feel like digging them out, and the limited edition reprints are likely to be of the black books soon anyway since everything for them was done in RTF, .HLP, HTML, etc for Core Rules so they wont have to OCR any actual books. so best b et would be to use or confer with the black books for cases when people get their hands on the reprints coming out sometime before or around summer.
Play the game, not the rules.

> Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.

> Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.

good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Rawbeard
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Post by Rawbeard » Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:32 pm

Got a strenght of 18/96 (rolled a couple of times. All were 90+. GM didn't care). I think I'll stay with plain fighter, don't really want to juggle ability scores. If this guy goes belly up, I'll see what I do.
Any Kits that might be worth it? I kinda specialized in Daggers, with those bonuses I think something small and fast might be more fun. Was thinking about the Beserker, no real drawbacks as far as I can tell, only takes a week and a half to get in berserking and afterwards you're dead, or something. Dunno.
Last edited by Rawbeard on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hicks
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Post by Hicks » Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:28 pm

Kits for Warriors and Fighters specifically: Berserker (for berserking), Myrmidon (bonus weapon specialization), and Pit Fighter (complete book of humanoids).
Kits for Rangers: beast master (ranger handbook, get a crazy katamari ball of animal followers)
Druid: shapeshifter (druid's handbook, shapeshift @ level 1)
Cleric: DO NOT TAKE A KIT, IT IS A TRAP! KILL IT! KILL IT WITH FIRE!
Wizard: you will be a specialist because of cowbell, they possess more of it, and specialist wizards cannot take kits. Be a conjurer and take ensnarement as your 6th level spell and bitchslap 2 efreeti every day for the rest of your life into giving you wishes. Does not require very high ability scores. Wizard kits are flavor and blow, do not get a kit.
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> shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.

> Lokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed

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Post by Hicks » Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:38 pm

Don't forget to be a human and dual-class the fuck out of fighter into a real class (specialist wizard, or cleric/priest) at 7th or 9th level. Remember: gauntlets of ogre power and/or a girdle of giant strength is better than you, and warhammer specialization wins the game.
Don't forget the close quarters fighting NWP out of the complete book of humanoids, roll under you DEX to get +3 to hit when indoors.
"Besides, my strong, cult like faith in the colon of the cards allows me to pull whatever I need out of my posterior!"
-Kid Radd

> shadzar wrote:those training harder get more, and training less, don't get the more.

> Lokathor wrote:Anything worth sniffing can't be sniffed

Stuff I've Made
Mage
Dread Necromancer
Spell Breaker
Scaling Magic Weapons
True Dragon
AVATAR: THE LAST RPG
Favored of Nerull
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Winnah
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Post by Winnah » Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:45 pm

A Dwarf Fighter/Thief.
Ghetto Fighter Kit (complete dwarf). Gets a bonus to hit and damage with daggers, vastly reduced penalties for 2 weapon fighting with daggers.
Your backstab will be overkill for any Orc or Goblin. Even more if you hit them twice. You may as well have extra daggers for throwing, though your chance to hit will not be as good as melee. Carrying around a suit of chainmail to change into might be appropriate when you can afford it.
Also, specialist wizards can take kits. They can't normally multiclass (exception gnome), but kits are fine. And yes, most priest kits suck, primarily because they modify sphere access and severely limit your spellcasting.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:40 pm

> Rawbeard wrote:Got a strenght of 18/96 (rolled a couple of times. All were 90+. GM didn't care). I think I'll stay with plain fighter, don't really want to juggle ability scores. If this guy goes belly up, I'll see what I do.
> Any Kits that might be worth it? I kinda specialized in Daggers, with those bonuses I think something small and fast might be more fun.

It's more fun to roll 1d3 against large opponents instead of 1d12? That's an odd idea. If you have your heart set on a low speed factor, at least consider using a short sword instead.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:29 pm

Keep the dagger in your boot, HURL DARTS. You can throw 3 darts at a time, STR bonus is added to throwing weapon. That's 1d3+5 damage per dart. Specialize in darts and throw 4 darts at 1d3+7 damage each.
You'll be storming through dungeons like Gauntlet going pew pew pew pew
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumbata that's what war-darts look like, so the imagery is about the same as hurling daggers.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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GâtFromKI
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### Re: AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

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Post by GâtFromKI » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:20 pm

> PoliteNewb wrote:If that's how you read it...I dont. If you wake up and spend 5 hours hiking across the countryside and killing goblins, you no longer have "a clear head gained from a restful night's sleep". You have a tired mind from hiking and goblin-killing.
> At the least, you need to do it relatively shortly after having a long restful sleep, without doing anything tiring or mentally trying in the meantime (which includes "casting spells").

Note that it takes one hour to memorize a 6th level spell.
The day of a high level 2e wizard looks like this: he wakes up, he memorizes a high level spell, then he tired because he spent one hour memorizing complicated stuff; since he can't memorize any other spell until he rests, he go back to sleep.
That's stupid, that's 2e. At least, attrition war affects wizards in this edition.
Last edited by GâtFromKI on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Rawbeard
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Post by Rawbeard » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:53 pm

Started with darts, but MC can't handle it. He pictures them as http://visual.merriam-webster.com/sport ... s/dart.php. That got annoying FAST, so I switched to daggers, lose one attack if I throw them, but can stab fools in the face with the same proficiency. Ghetto Fighter is pretty much what I pictured the character as. Crap. Might have to rebuild that sucker. Let's see if MC got down from his "Multiclassing is for humans only" trip. Yeah. That happend.
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Juton
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Post by Juton » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:55 pm

I second darts. I've never played a TT game of 2e, but the legend of their effectiveness/cheapness still persists. Depending on your stats you might want to go Fighter/Whatever with Casting so you'll be useful at all levels.
Oh thank God, finally a thread about how Fighters in D&D suck. This was a long time coming. - Schwarzkopf
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Post by Voss » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:12 pm

> Rawbeard wrote: Let's see if MC got down from his "Multiclassing is for humans only" trip. Yeah. That happend.

So many things wrong with that. Especially if level limits for non humans are also in play. Its one of the few things that the demihumans actually bring to the table.

> Don't forget to be a human and dual-class the fuck out of fighter into a real class (specialist wizard, or cleric/priest) at 7th or 9th level.

In actual play, this is made of extended period of absolute suck. Everything but hit points and strength bonus is turned off (or you gain no xp) for the slog back to (level+1). You'll contribute shit for however long you're stuck in this limbo.
Plus you need the stats for that sort of shit, which for a specialist wiz is at least a 17 int and 15 in some other stat that isn't strength. Dual classing really isn't it worth it in real play other than a dip for specialization and an immediate dual out of it. Or if the campaign starts at a higher level and you exploit the hell out of the xp/level charts.
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Rawbeard
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Post by Rawbeard » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:52 pm

Something else starts to gnaw on my brains. Weaponlists have damage listed in S/M and L. Now I am smart and think that has to be size, right? Well... except that in this case some weapons deal less damage large... so... WTF?
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Post by Username17 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:35 pm

> Rawbeard wrote:Something else starts to gnaw on my brains. Weaponlists have damage listed in S/M and L. Now I am smart and think that has to be size, right? Well... except that in this case some weapons deal less damage large... so... WTF?

That is the size of the target. Big weapons do more damage against big enemies while small weapons do less damage against big enemies. In many (most) cases the logic is... unapparent. In any case, if you have percentile strength, the difference isn't going to come up that often.
Also, lots of tables simply don't play with that rule at all. So there's that.
-Username17
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