# The Gaming Den

Welcome to the Gaming Den.

Skip to content

## Bards Suck!

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply

- Print view

14 posts • Page 1 of 1

The_Hanged_Man
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 636
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by The_Hanged_Man » Mon May 03, 2004 10:09 pm

Since a "Sneak Attack is Uber" thread up, a "bards suck" thread seems appropriate.
I think the main problem w/ the bard class (and the hexblade, while we're at it) is the spell progression. Delaying spell levels is bad enough. Getting a 3nd level spell when some classes are getting 5th do make you feel a little insignificant.
But stopping the spell progression at 6th level or lower just destroys the class. All caster-based classes need a full 9th-level spell progression, even if it's just a single spell at high levels. At high levels, 6th level spells are things you use to take care of mooks, not signficant class abilities. Outsiders get at-will abilities equivalent to 6th level spells. And these are the tip of the Bard power curve.
So. Would it fix the bard to give it a 9-level spell progression? Would that be too much? What about at least getting 8th level spells?
Top

Desdan_Mervolam
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 985
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Mon May 03, 2004 10:12 pm

The problem with the Bard is that his combat utility is extremely limited in a game where heavy combat at the expense of story and RP is considered a main campaign-mode.
-Desdan
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
Top

User3
  Prince
  Posts: 3974
  Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by User3 » Mon May 03, 2004 11:07 pm

Bards have one schtick. They get the important enchantments spells at lower spell levels, thus their lower spell progression is almost even on enchantment spells. With a high Cha, they can convince people to do stuff when Charmed.
Add in a Tongues or telepathy item, and they are almost good, since the monsters you can charm are based on the CR of your adventures.
Of course, a Sorcerer is better in like ten different ways, and they can do this trick, and I have never heard people say that sorcerers were too powerful. The Sorcerers Suck! camp is always crowded.
Top

Wrenfield
  Master
  Posts: 252
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by Wrenfield » Tue May 04, 2004 1:23 am

> The Hanged Man wrote:So. Would it fix the bard to give it a 9-level spell progression? Would that be too much? What about at least getting 8th level spells?

Bard-9 / Nar Demonbinder-1 / Virtuoso-10
Wa-la. A Bard with 8th level spellcasting capability (for Nar-D) and 5th level Bard spells to boot. And 19 ranks of Bard Song. And a boatload of extra of Bard Song capabilities. And all the spells and songs are Charisma-based to boot.
BTW, the progression is Bard-9/Virt-1/ND-1/Virt-6 (attached to ND)/Virt-3 (attached to Bard). Your BAB sucks, but big whoop.
***
If you want a kick-ass martial Bard, go Bard-16/Soldier of Light-1/SpellSword-3. That gives you BAB +16, medium armor with no ASP (albeit medium "exotic" armor), 18 spellcaster levels, Divine Might feat *and* Arcane Strike, and 16 levels of Bard Song. Not bad. And this is for a THF combatant. You can even make a TWF variant with Spiked Large Shield and Spiked Battle Gauntlets (RoF customized weapon - and Medium sized for Power Attack usage) to get max defense and offense output (again, with Divine Might and Arcane Strike).
***
But all in all, everyone knows the Bard is not intended for mass consumption for parties of Iconic-4 composition. It's a 5th man or cohort character. Unless you got it tweaked high into serious combat min/maxitude (as the builds are above).
Top

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Tue May 04, 2004 6:01 am

The big problem here is that the high end class features are equivalent to spells that real spellcasters get at lower levels. By the time you get Mass Suggestion, the real spellcasters probably stopped casting it because they have better stuff now.
The Bard is pretty decent at low levels, but he doesn't keep up with the caster progression. It means that if he keeps taking Bard levels he's falling behind. But if he multiclasses out - he's still a spellcaster. Those minor spells fade into being more minor, and eventually worthless as levels advance. Those Bardic abilities just don't stack in with multiclassed Fighter builds the way Sneak Attack does.
So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. The Bard can't maintain either the strong quadratic progression of a real primary spellcaster or the strong linear progression of a multiclassed warrior. Either way you go - those Bardic Abilties don't mean jack when you're staring down a Marilith.
Bards need a fundamental shift to the fashion in which their abilities stack with other classes and with their own class. Which means that they probably want to live in a world where people get indepently scaling abilities every level. Getting "Bardic Music" is really only one ability. The whole thing - out to the dozen plus uses per day and mass suggestion and crap is collectively worth only a single level by the time there is a Gelugon staring you down, having to constantly invest levels into that ability to keep it up is like a parabel for heroin addiction.
-Username17
Top

RandomCasualty
  Prince
  Posts: 3506
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by RandomCasualty » Tue May 04, 2004 6:11 am

The bard is the epitome of the specialist versus generalist problem in D&D and how D&D favors specialists immensely.
How D&D is currently set up, the bard should really be a PrC for it to work at all. It's gotta be like a combo between the eldritch knight and the arcane trickster. Give it fighter BaB, d8 hit dice and +1 spellcasting each level with bardic music progressing each level, and it may work.
As a core class, it's abysmal.
Top

Wrenfield
  Master
  Posts: 252
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by Wrenfield » Tue May 04, 2004 1:44 pm

In regards to Frank's assessment that all those extra uses of Bard Music become useless at high levels (which is true), WotC had the right idea when they published a feat like Talfirian Song (either UnEast or RoF book - can't recall).
Talfirian Song at least gave you the ability to trade in those tons of extra uses of Bard Song to be used as DC boosts to your spell. The feat has a pre-req. of Heighten Spell, but you could at least crank out some seriously high spell DC's with T. Song.
More mechanics involving alternative uses for a Bard-20 who has a whopping 20 Bard Song a day would at least be helpful. I mean, hell ... you only have 4 encounters a day - you'll never use them all!
***
Don't forget to, you can make a Sorceror (or Wiz) build with around 14 levels of Virtuoso and/or Spellsinger. That's a decent load of Bard Music capability. And, you can also take the Heighten Spell/Talfirian Song feat combo to boot.
Top

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Tue May 04, 2004 4:18 pm

Heck, as written you can make Gnome Cleric builds with Virtuoso. And you may as well if you intend to fight with Divine Might whenever you engage in combat.
The Bard as written gets about 2 or 3 levels worth of abilities ever in his life. And while this makes him OK at level 3, this makes him pretty bad at level 8 (since of course if he doesn't keep spending levels into Bard his abilities expire making him 3 levels down - but if he does keep taking levels in Bard he stops getting new abilities - which makes him like 5 levels down).
-Username17
Top

The_Hanged_Man
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 636
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by The_Hanged_Man » Tue May 04, 2004 7:11 pm

> Wrenfield at [unixtime wrote:1083633814[/unixtime]]

> > The Hanged Man wrote:So. Would it fix the bard to give it a 9-level spell progression? Would that be too much? What about at least getting 8th level spells?

> Bard-9 / Nar Demonbinder-1 / Virtuoso-10
> Wa-la. A Bard with 8th level spellcasting capability (for Nar-D) and 5th level Bard spells to boot. And 19 ranks of Bard Song. And a boatload of extra of Bard Song capabilities. And all the spells and songs are Charisma-based to boot.

Whenever I see any build w/ the Demonbinder, I figure the DM should just hand out minor artifacts at 4th level. Stupid class.
Top

The_Hanged_Man
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 636
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by The_Hanged_Man » Tue May 04, 2004 7:17 pm

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083687480[/unixtime]]Heck, as written you can make Gnome Cleric builds with Virtuoso. And you may as well if you intend to fight with Divine Might whenever you engage in combat.
> The Bard as written gets about 2 or 3 levels worth of abilities ever in his life. And while this makes him OK at level 3, this makes him pretty bad at level 8 (since of course if he doesn't keep spending levels into Bard his abilities expire making him 3 levels down - but if he does keep taking levels in Bard he stops getting new abilities - which makes him like 5 levels down).
> -Username17

That's the other side of the coin. Bards get decent skill points, but b/c cha and dex are first for ability allocations they actually end up a loooong ways behind rogues in total skill points.
The bardic music just . . . What were they thinking? The buffs aren't bad, but Mass Suggestion? When mages are gating in Solars? Sweet Jesus, kill me now. Put me out of my misery.
Top

Wrenfield
  Master
  Posts: 252
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by Wrenfield » Tue May 04, 2004 8:38 pm

> The_Hanged_Man at [unixtime wrote:1083698240[/unixtime]]
> That's the other side of the coin. Bards get decent skill points, but b/c cha and dex are first for ability allocations they actually end up a loooong ways behind rogues in total skill points.
> The bardic music just . . . What were they thinking? The buffs aren't bad, but Mass Suggestion? When mages are gating in Solars? Sweet Jesus, kill me now. Put me out of my misery.

Yeah, but a Rogue has DEX and CON as its primary 2 stats. So I'm not sure I see your "loooong way" behind Rogues regarding skill points.
Regarding your 2nd point, as I stated earlier, I don't think anyone in WotC ever intended for the Bard to be a viable Iconic-4 alternative. Again, the Bard was intended to be a 5th party member, a cohort, an NPC. You can still make rather quixotic power builds with a Bard, but you really have to try hard and you have to use across-the-spectrum, non-core WotC material to do it.
I tend to like Bards up to 6th level. Getting 6 uses of Fascinate/Suggestion at that level is pretty darn useful. Especially for a scouty/stealth Bard.
If you really dig some of the more powerful or useful Bard-specific spells, you can always access them via UMD or the Clerical "Spell" Domain (FRCS/PGtF). Improvisation is one of my fave spells - and getting it via a Cleric of Mystra is pretty nifty...
Top

The_Hanged_Man
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 636
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by The_Hanged_Man » Tue May 04, 2004 8:44 pm

IMX, rogues go dex/int/con or cha. Sometimes, cha/int/dex if they want to play a face. IMX, rogues typically get 11 SP/level, bards 7 (w/ a 12 int) - which is a long ways behind.
Top

Wrenfield
  Master
  Posts: 252
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by Wrenfield » Tue May 04, 2004 9:07 pm

Every single time our group tries a Rogue character who does not choose CON as its 2nd most important stat, it dies an early death. Honestly. I can't recall the last "succesful" Rogue who did not chose CON as its 2nd best stat. For a combat viable Rogue, especially if you take the TWF path, CON is oh-so-critical. And is the crux to my argument that the best Rogues are usually Dwarves. But I'm diverging here ...
Bards, who often are best slinging spells, song, and arrows, can get by with a mediocre CON since they are stupid to engage in melee unless they are tightly structured as a Melee Battle Bard. And a high INT helps both their skills and their Bard Lore ability (which we get a lot of mileage out of).
The most appropriate Bard dump stats are usually WIS and STR (unless they need STR bonuses for archer builds). DEX, INT, and CON all have variable secondary status for Bards based on their unique build structure.
Top

The_Hanged_Man
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 636
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

### Re: Bards Suck!

- Quote

Post by The_Hanged_Man » Tue May 04, 2004 9:21 pm

IMX, rogues use bows and thrown daggers a lot. Melee is for spring attack or invisibility, or for TWF and getting a smack on before you get killed.
The main reason to pick int over con early is that con is backwards compatible, int isn't. Providing you survive, of course . . .
Top
Post Reply

- Print view

Display:
Sort by:
Direction:

14 posts • Page 1 of 1

Return to “In My Humble Opinion...”

Jump to

- Main
- ↳ About the Gaming Den
- ↳ In My Humble Opinion...
- ↳ I Gave the Mouse a Cookie...
- ↳ In The Trenches
- ↳ It's My Own Invention...
- ↳ MPSIMS