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## Assuming you thought Pathfinder wasn't the worst

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Whatever
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Post by Whatever » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:31 pm

Can't you just get a magic gun that doesn't run out of bullets? That's even more common than "always hit the target" in terms of things that magic guns pretty much always do.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:56 pm

If you have one of those DMs (likely, because you're playing Pathfinder) who will pooh-pooh a third arm, you have an alternate option.
First, keep this caveat in mind:

> If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

Also, you have this item. I have no idea why Pathfinder decided that of all things the glove of storing needed a nerf, but whatever. You'll have to craft the other glove to be slotless.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:59 pm

> Whatever wrote:Can't you just get a magic gun that doesn't run out of bullets? That's even more common than "always hit the target" in terms of things that magic guns pretty much always do.

There's a magic pistol in Ultimate Equipment that never runs out of bullets and doesn't need to be reloaded, but it's prohibitively expensive.
PG. 158
PISTOL OF THE INFINITE SKY
Price: 73,300 GP
Weight: 4lbs
Caster Level: 15
AURA: Strong conjuration
An infinity symbol is engraved on both sides of this +5 (The Boss would nod in approval) pistol’s mother of pearl grip, and the barrel is adorned with gold depicting the moon, planets, and stars against a night sky of the pistol’s cold black steel. This pistol never needs to be reloaded. After one shot is fired, a bullet and powder
magically appear in the chamber. This ammunition never suffers a misfire.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS: COST 37,300 GP
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, reloading hands

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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fectin
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Post by fectin » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:18 pm

is there a reason you couldn't put all your pistols on watch chains, so you can drop them without leaving them all over the field?

> Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:38 pm

> fectin wrote:is there a reason you couldn't put all your pistols on watch chains, so you can drop them without leaving them all over the field?

Pathfinder did one of their weird stealth nerfs in Ultimate Equipment -- they actually do have such a cord with that specific function, but it uses up a swift action to retrieve it. You can of course ignore it unless some jerkface brings the book to the table.
There might be a way to stow a weapon as a free action. Any such methods escape me.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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echoVanguard
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Post by echoVanguard » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:53 pm

How is that a nerf, exactly? The whole point of the weapon chain is that it's a free action to drop it - the time it takes to retrieve it is usually a move action at least. Typical use of a weapon chain is to drop your current weapon (free action), draw your next weapon (move action, or free with Quick Draw), continue attacking. Weapon Cords have the drawback of being limited to one per hand, but grant the benefit of being able to retrieve your weapon faster than normal.
echo
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Ted the Flayer
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Post by Ted the Flayer » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:57 pm

This discussion is stupid and it would annoy me to have it at the table. I will rule that if you get reloading down to a free action you don't need a free hand anymore.

> Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.

> Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:01 pm

> echoVanguard wrote:the time it takes to retrieve it is usually a move action at least.

Since when?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:55 pm

Let me clarify my position a bit: in the 3.5E D&D FAQ, switching your handedness on a weapon was said to be a free action. This was in discussion of switching from wielding a sword in one hand or two. Such that as long as you were carrying a pistol or sword or whatever (which was done with various cords) you could change your grip on it as a free action.
The swift action for cords is a pretty grievous nerf. It pretty much requires you to have a third arm or gloves of storing or similar silliness.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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ishy
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Post by ishy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:45 pm

Well actually the weapon cord was introduced in the APG, the one in ultimate equipment is just a reprint I think?
But while not rules legal (since James just posts this on the forums from memory and is thus sometimes wrong) James Jacobs did post this: Link

> James Jacobs wrote:Switching a held object from one hand to the other doesn't require an action, so the end result is the same whether or not you use the light shield hand to lay on hands or your weapon hand after switching your weapon to the off hand, and then back to your weapon hand.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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echoVanguard
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Post by echoVanguard » Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:47 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Let me clarify my position a bit: in the 3.5E D&D FAQ, switching your handedness on a weapon was said to be a free action. This was in discussion of switching from wielding a sword in one hand or two. Such that as long as you were carrying a pistol or sword or whatever (which was done with various cords) you could change your grip on it as a free action.
> The swift action for cords is a pretty grievous nerf. It pretty much requires you to have a third arm or gloves of storing or similar silliness.

That is sophistry, and not even very good sophistry. Carrying and Holding are not equivalent terms by any margin. For example, an item stowed in your backpack can be reasonably said to be Carried by you, but not Held by you - that designation is reserved for things you hold in your hands. Your argument could just as easily be restated that "drawing a weapon is always a free action, because you're just changing your grip on it" which is patently false - drawing a weapon is a move action unless you have the Quick Draw feat.
echo
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:47 pm

> echoVanguard wrote:Your argument could just as easily be restated that "drawing a weapon is always a free action, because you're just changing your grip on it" which is patently false - drawing a weapon is a move action unless you have the Quick Draw feat.

This conveniently forgets that touching yourself or things on your person is a free action. That's what the cord is for.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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koz
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Post by koz » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:58 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:...touching yourself...is a free action...

Best thing on this thread so far.
Everything I learned about DnD, I learned from Frank Trollman.

> Kaelik wrote:You are so full of Strawmen that I can only assume you actually shit actual straw.

> souran wrote:...uber, nerd-rage-inducing, minutia-devoted, pointless blithering shit.

> Schwarzkopf wrote:The Den, your one-stop shop for in-depth analysis of Dungeons & Dragons and distressingly credible threats of oral rape.

> DSM wrote:Apparently, The GM's Going To Punch You in Your Goddamned Face edition of D&D is getting more traction than I expected. Well, it beats playing 4th. Probably 5th, too.

> Frank Trollman wrote:Giving someone a mouth full of cock is a standard action.

> PoliteNewb wrote:If size means anything, it's what position you have to get in to give a BJ.

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ishy
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Post by ishy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:17 pm

On a slightly related note, can you take free actions only during your turn (with the exception of talking) or whenever you want? I can't find any rules addressing this in pf.
Last edited by ishy on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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echoVanguard
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Post by echoVanguard » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:27 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:This conveniently forgets that touching yourself or things on your person is a free action. That's what the cord is for.

Citation needed. The only generic free actions allowed in combat are listed at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/c ... -In-Combat and are limited to the following list:
* Cease concentration on a spell
* Drop an item
* Drop to the floor
* Prepare spell components to cast a spell (unless the component is an extremely large or awkward item)
* Speak
I don't doubt there are specific spells or items which are a free action to use, but those are specific cases rather than general ones. I am personally quite unaware of any rule or text which allows the interpretation you're asserting, and the fact that it breaks the action rules for "Retrieve a Stored Item" and "Draw a Weapon" (both move actions on the Action list) is a pretty big indictment.
echo
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echoVanguard
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Post by echoVanguard » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:30 pm

> ishy wrote:On a slightly related note, can you take free actions only during your turn (with the exception of talking) or whenever you want? I can't find any rules addressing this in pf.

You can only take free actions on your turn. The only type of action that can be taken when it isn't your turn is an immediate action. See link in previous post.
echo
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:41 pm

> Mister_Sinister wrote:

> > Lago PARANOIA wrote:...touching yourself...is a free action...

> Best thing on this thread so far.

I hate you. I'm laughing so hard.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:41 pm

But only so long as you're just checking your package.
Or the Flash:
Last edited by Prak on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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fectin
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Post by fectin » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:38 pm

This is actually something FantasyCraft did well: drawing a weapon/messing with gear requires taking the "handle item" action, which costs 1/2 action (you get 1 action per round, doing stuff takes 1 or 1/2 action). Reloading takes some number of handle item actions (e.g. 5 for a blunderbuss). There is a feat which gives you three free handle item actions each round. That makes it much better than QuickDraw, because you can also be batman with your bat-healing potions and whatnot.

> Vebyast wrote:Here's a fun target for Major Creation: hydrazine. One casting every six seconds at CL9 gives you a bit more than 40 liters per second, which is comparable to the flow rates of some small, but serious, rocket engines. Six items running at full blast through a well-engineered engine will put you, and something like 50 tons of cargo, into space. Alternatively, if you thrust sideways, you will briefly be a fireball screaming across the sky at mach 14 before you melt from atmospheric friction.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:40 pm

> echoVanguard wrote:The only generic free actions allowed in combat are listed at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/c ... -In-Combat and are limited to the following list:

Guess switching your handedness on a weapon is a move action, then, since it's not on the list! Unless you're willing to concede that that list is not supposed to be all-inclusive.
By the way, you should probably link 3.5E rules, not Pathfinder ones. I'm talking about a nerf going from 3.5E->PF.

> echoVanguard wrote:I don't doubt there are specific spells or items which are a free action to use, but those are specific cases rather than general ones.

There isn't any wiggle room on this. Touching yourself is straight-up a free action. That is exactly how touch spells work -- otherwise holding the charge to use on an enemy or even yourself later would not take an extra melee touch action after it is cast.

> echoVanguard wrote:I am personally quite unaware of any rule or text which allows the interpretation you're asserting, and the fact that it breaks the action rules for "Retrieve a Stored Item" and "Draw a Weapon" (both move actions on the Action list) is a pretty big indictment.

Okay, here's my interpretation.
1.) Touching yourself or things on yourself is a free action. See above.
2.) You do not have to be holding stuff directly in your hand to be considered wearing or carrying it. See: magical necklaces or more specifically wristbands.
3.) Switching your handedness on something according to the 3.5E FAQ is a free action.
4.) (Bonus note) Snatch Arrows, the returning property, and the animated weapon property give precedent for picking things up being free or even no actions if sufficiently convenient. It's not a smoking gun or anything, but it disproves that wielding an unheld object is necessarily a greater-than-free action.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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echoVanguard
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Post by echoVanguard » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:03 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:By the way, you should probably link 3.5E rules, not Pathfinder ones. I'm talking about a nerf going from 3.5E->PF.

This is a fair criticism. I'll try to quote from the d20srd going forward for this topic.

> There isn't any wiggle room on this. Touching yourself is straight-up a free action. That is exactly how touch spells work -- otherwise holding the charge to use on an enemy or even yourself later would not take an extra melee touch action after it is cast.

Okay, that's a good argument for that particular action. I'll concede this one.

> 1.) Touching yourself or things on yourself is a free action. See above.

Stipulated above.

> 2.) You do not have to be holding stuff directly in your hand to be considered wearing or carrying it. See: magical necklaces or more specifically wristbands.

Also stipulated.

> 3.) Switching your handedness on something according to the 3.5E FAQ is a free action.

It's worth noting this is totally unrelated to 1 and 2. You can only "switch your handedness" on items held in your hands, not items worn or carried by you that do not meet the previous criteria. In other words, items held by you count as carried, but not vice versa.

> 4.) (Bonus note) Snatch Arrows, the returning property, and the animated weapon property give precedent for picking things up being free or even no actions if sufficiently convenient. It's not a smoking gun or anything, but it disproves that wielding an unheld object is necessarily a greater-than-free action.

This is another example of specific overriding general, and doesn't actually change the facts of the question. The fact that grabbing a dancing weapon out of the air is a free action doesn't mean that drawing a weapon in other circumstances is also free. The general case is that drawing a weapon is a move action, and that case can be overridden by more specific implementations, such as specific weapon properties, specific item properties (such as the cord in question), specific magic item properties, or specific abilities granted by feats or skills.
echo
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ishy
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Post by ishy » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:58 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote: There isn't any wiggle room on this. Touching yourself is straight-up a free action. That is exactly how touch spells work -- otherwise holding the charge to use on an enemy or even yourself later would not take an extra melee touch action after it is cast.

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? If holding a charge -> touch yourself takes an extra melee touch action, then touching yourself is thus not a free action.
Though I can't find any rules about the action cost of touching yourself after holding the charge.

> Lago PARANOIA wrote: 3.) Switching your handedness on something according to the 3.5E FAQ is a free action.

I thought everybody ignored the 3.5E FAQ since it is a piece of shit and often wrong?

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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LeadPal
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Post by LeadPal » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:04 am

> Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:If trying to use a Gunslinger in PF, you should try your best to convince your DM to adopt these House Rules instead

I can't be bothered to read the whole thing, because at a glance it still looks really shitty. Am I missing something?
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:06 am

> LeadPal wrote:

> > Bill Bisco: Isometric Imp wrote:If trying to use a Gunslinger in PF, you should try your best to convince your DM to adopt these House Rules instead

> I can't be bothered to read the whole thing, because at a glance it still looks really shitty. Am I missing something?

I've read them in full. They are in all ways superior to the books rules for guns and for gunslingers. It's not like it's a total paradigm shift or anything but they are in all directions a superior, more cogent, more useable rule set. So yeah, play with those if you wanted to play a gunslinger in a game

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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Ted the Flayer
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Post by Ted the Flayer » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:02 pm

Another quick question.
What is in the gamemaster's guide? Because the core book seems to have everything but monsters.

> Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.

> Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.

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