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Lago PARANOIA
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### Professional Wrestling

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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:30 am

I know some of you guys out there were fans of this sport at one time or another.
My personal story? I was the casualest of casual fans ever since I started watching at, oh, around 1998. I could name a lot of the big names and tell you that nWo was getting on everyone's fukken nerves, but other than that? Not really.
Then at around spring 2003 I played Smackdown: Here Come the Pain and I loved that game. A lot. My roomie, who later went crazy on a submarine, was a fan of the sport and of Spike TV so he was able to get me up to speed. I was an enormous smark at the time and... well, this quote from the Rifts Madness thread should tell you about my climb and fall.

> My wrestling phase didn't last for very long. I really liked Brock Lesnar and Kurt Angle until I realized that the former was an enormous douche and the latter is out of his mind. But what sealed the deal was... ugh. Okay, remember the Wrestlemania where Christ Benoit fought HHH and HBK and he fukken won? Totally made up for the fact that Goldberg and Lesnar had one of the biggest epic fails on television. Anyway, it was one of the most exciting things I've ever seen on television and I watched with rapt interest as he held the belt and formed an alliance with Shelton Benjamin and... and...
> Well, fuck all that. I stopped watching after Benoit lost the title belt and Eugene got a big push. I mean, I knew it would happen, but the gravy train was over and it was back to the retardedness. Literally this time, though.
> Then there was the Benoit murder-suicide and now I have no interest in watching wrestling ever again. I can't even bring myself to play a WWE wrasslin' video game. Sadness.

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TOZ
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Post by TOZ » Wed Jun 17, 2009 3:47 am

I got hooked on WCW around the time of the nWo myself. It was a weekly thing for most of high school. Then I fell off for a bit, and came back to find out most of the names I recognized were gone and there were new people that didn't catch my interest as much.
I used to enjoy passing the time with avatars on the Smackdown games as well. Me and my best friend would do tag teams and just beat the shit out of whoever it was. I should pull some of them out again and see how badly I do now.
The real cool thing is that I got to meet my favorite wrestler overseas in Afghanistan. Dallas Page came through on a Legends of Wrestling tour, and promoted his yoga program. Definately a high point of those months.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:04 am

I love(d) DDP. Drink a glass of orange juice for me, and FUCK the Invasion angle.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:29 am

Yeah, Invasion was the worst thing ever. It's generally agreed that Vince intentionally did that just to spit on the grave of his rivals - he COULD have kept WCW and ECW as separate brands and raised them up to WWE, but instead, he pulled the invasion angle, rolled it all into the WWE and basically killed it off in a handful of PPVs. And now WWE is divided into three brands anyway (one of which is ECW).
I just hope TNA never sells out to WWE, because Vince will destroy it utterly.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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TOZ
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Post by TOZ » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:49 pm

I think I still have the last airing of Nitro saved on a harddrive somewhere. At least there was good matches.
DDP has been my favorite from the start, but the main reason I watched was for the cruiserweights and a couple others. Rey Mysterio and Billy Kidman did some amazing work and were always entertaining. Shane Helms wasn't getting to use his full potential as the Hurricane in WWE last I saw. The stunts he and Kidman pulled off were jawdropping.
The other wrestlers I liked were the 'mat technicians' as they say. The guys that could pull off crazy chained reversals and actually made it so you never knew who was going to come out on top. Chris Benoit and Bret Hart's memorial match for Owen is a good example. Overall, I just didn't care for the stories so much. I'd mute the interviews and wait for the matches to start.
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Cynic
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Post by Cynic » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:59 pm

Fvck you all and your WCW and your Monday Night Nitro.
I remember sitting in front of the tv in 1992 as an awe inspired kid in India who had done nothing but watch wrestling for and talked about it and tried a move on his older sister and got the crap kicked out of him by his sister and then his mother and then my dad came home and he took the belt out.
I still watched.
Hell they even bought a set of cards that had the stats of all the wrestlers on it but you play with them like playing cards with yours friends for my birthday because I wanted it.
I remember all the stupid old old wrestlers. In those days India was about 5-6 years old still up to date because the local networks played the old stuff and the cable networks were bringing in aussie channels... strange.
But I remember the day when Bret Hart lifted Yokozuna above his head and did a suplex or a diamond cutter and I went wow, this is stupid. In a year, I learnt the word gay from a friend who I would look up to as a mentor for a couple of years. He taught me every curse word and everything about the world that was wrong and twisted but it was all wrong. He knew shit. But the funny thing was the next day after the Bret hart lifting Yokozuna incident, when I got on the public bus to go to school, every other kid was talking about how awesome and cool it was.
My parents were completely happy. Now if only he would stay away from the scantily covered bodies and drugs that appeared on Capt Kirk's Star Trek and Life Guard Mitch's Baywatch. gasp.

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:16 pm

Eddiesploitation would've permanently turned me off to WWE if I wasn't ignoring it already. Things like that convince me that Vince McMahon is actually evil; not just petty or shortsighted or stupid, but actually evil.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Sir Neil
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Post by Sir Neil » Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:28 am

I watched the WWF back in 1992. The return of Hulk Hogan, the Undertaker, Bret Hart ... to this day I wear pink shirts with black pants.

> Koumei wrote:If other sites had plenty of good homebrew stuff the Den wouldn't need to exist. We don't come here because we like each other.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:17 am

Vince McMahon does most of the writing. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But while he puts out an inconsistent product, he does put out a lot of it. There's several performances a week all year round. And frankly, a lot of it is good.
Vince is a heel. He goes out of his way to get booed by fans because it's part of the show. That takes a lot of guts frankly. I have more respect for heels than for faces, because anyone would like to go out there to cheers and women flashing their breasts. It takes giant balls to go out and get booed by a couple thousand people.
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Cynic
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Post by Cynic » Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:55 am

> Sir_Neil wrote:I watched the WWF back in 1992. The return of Hulk Hogan, the Undertaker, Bret Hart ... to this day I wear pink shirts with black pants.

Hey, you can't forget, the hitman's Pink Shades. But I thought it was the other way around though Black shirts with Pink pants. Come on, Sir Neil, you know you want to go on a routine arrest wearing this --
:thumb:

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

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Ganbare Gincun
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Post by Ganbare Gincun » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:13 am

The last time I watched wrestling on a regular basis, Hulk Hogan was an up-and-coming star and Andre The Giant was still alive.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:34 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:Vince McMahon does most of the writing. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. But while he puts out an inconsistent product, he does put out a lot of it. There's several performances a week all year round. And frankly, a lot of it is good.
> Vince is a heel. He goes out of his way to get booed by fans because it's part of the show. That takes a lot of guts frankly. I have more respect for heels than for faces, because anyone would like to go out there to cheers and women flashing their breasts. It takes giant balls to go out and get booed by a couple thousand people.
> -Username17

When I call McMahon evil, I don't call him that because of things like the Austin/McMahon feud, which was just him being in-character. I don't call him that because of his well-known tendency to push wrestlers beyond the call of duty until they fukken break (hello there, Andre and Owen), because frankly every promoter does it. I don't call him that because of the Invasion angle, which pretty much crushed the hopes and dreams of fans for personal reasons--and this is the fan-disappointment to end all fan-disappointments; Naruto and Star Wars, bad as they are, did not have the concentrated suck of that angle. And I don't even mind the Katie Vick thing, even though that's one of the things that makes people genuinely ashamed to be a wrestling fan even if you never have personally seen it. Yes, his fingerprints were all over it, yes it cemented his reputation as a perverted old man who was into snuff and necrophilia... but I wouldn't actually call it evil.
Making his friends and family dance for a paycheck after Eddie Guerrero's death (including making his wife turn heel) even though he knew it was insulting and everyone hated that angle is just wrong. It's a wrongness that goes beyond showbiz or even a petty kid playing with his toys. Does it rise to the level of mugging someone for shoes or selling a nephew's instrument for money? No. But it indicates a basic lack of human decency that is disturbing. More disturbing than HHH fucking a cheerleader's corpse at a funeral.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:35 am

I like how Shawn Michaels and the Undertaker are unable to be heels now - that even when they try, too many people still cheer them on (or laugh, in the case of Shawn randomly superkicking various crew for no apparent reason). It's hilarious. They just can't be proper heels.
Triple H, on the other hand, can still be both, and he changes that as often as he changes his pants - and that I respect. Even if he does abuse his veto powers and tends to hold titles too long and, behind the scenes, is a bit of a whiny bitch.
But... Katie Vick? And Triple H fucking a corpse? What? Are these things related or different incidents? And please tell me it's "disturbing angles that Vince ran for a laugh", and not "backstage scandals".

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:52 am

In the storyline, Triple H humped the corpse of Kane's dead sweetheart, Katie Vick. Seriously. But you know what? It's just a bad taste comedy segment. It's actually really funny in its context.
As Vince McMahon said "Giving it to the people is easy. Finding out what they really want is hard." And that's totally true. The people want the characters to do bad stuff so that they can be justifiably booed. They want the heels to spit on the American flag and insult the viewers. Not because they want their flags or their persons insulted, but because they want to boo at a villain who has done those things.
Some things are "over the line" for some viewers. But it's insult comedy, skirting that line is the entire reason that it's a craft.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:00 am

> But... Katie Vick? And Triple H fucking a corpse? What? Are these things related or different incidents? And please tell me it's "disturbing angles that Vince ran for a laugh", and not "backstage scandals".

They're disturbing angles Vince ran for a laugh. Every modern-era wrestling fan should know about this--much like if you read Cerebus the Aardvark you need to know about Sims' raging misogyny, because it's so stupid and shameful.
Basically, back in 2003 HHH and Kane were having a feud. HHH tried to play mind games with... you know what? I have the Wrestlecrap book, why don't I just paste you the relevant section?
(fucking Adobe Digital Editions, can't let a motherfucker copy shit hang on)

> Wrestlecrap: The Very Worst of Professional Wrestling wrote: There was just one thing these angles were missing, though, and McMahon knew exactly what it was: necrophilia. "When he came up with the idea, it was all he could talk about," claimed a former WWE employee who requested anonymity. "He just kept yelling out the punchline to the skit then laughing uncontrollaby. It was very uncomfortable."
> The angle came about because Triple H was having a problem finding credible opponents. It wasn't so much the case that they couldn't find opponents, but rather that he and Steph were having a tough time finding opponents who wouldn't overshadow him. They therefore allowed Kane, a character who had been floating in the midcard for years, to become the top contender to Hunter's title. However, since Kane had done nothing of note to explain his number-one contendership, a story line was concocted that would push him up the rankings.
> Hunter accused Kane of murdering his [Kane's] high school sweetheart, Katie Vick. Since the words 'Katie Vick' had never been muttered on WWE television before, fans had no idea who Hunter was talking about. An elaborate backstory was created in which Kane and cheerleader Katie were friends who had been out at a party late one rainy evening some ten years before. [ED: since Glen Jacobs would've been 26 years old at the time... yeah.] Kane claimed he was unfamiliar with a stick shift, which caused him to swerve off of the road and ram into a tree, killing Katie instantly. Hunter didn't believe this, claiming that Kane had intentionally killed Katie after she had spurned one of his sexual advances. It got much worse, as Hnter alleged that during the autospy the coroner had discovered traces of Kane's semen in Katie's body. Hunter continued needling Kane, asking, "On that night, did you force Katie Vick to have sex with you while she was alive, or did you wait and do it to her after she was dead?"
> All this would have been disgusting enough but Hunter went further, producing footage of the night Kane did the dirty deed. A videotape, with the date "10/09/92" in the corner, displayed a casket decorated with pom-poms and flowers. Quietly, a familiar figure entered the room.
> It was Kane; or rather, it was Hunter disguised as Kane. He began talking to Katie (actually a mannequin) as though she were still alive, which would have been creepy enough. However, he began to 'hear' her, and she was making it very clear that she wanted him. She wanted him in a sexual manner. The shot pixilated as he groped her breasts [and] then pulled off her panties, stopping to take a whiff. He then stripped buck nekked [sic], hopped in the casket, spread her legs, and banged her gong. Following this, he proclaimed some weird type of carnal victory, screaming, "I did it. I really did it! I screwed your brains out!" He then grabbed a fistful of noodles and threw them at the screen.

Relevant Video:
http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=27517

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:49 am

On a less depressing note, I know it's been awhile but I prefer John Cena as a heel rather than a face. He seemed to hit the right notes as an Ambercrombie & Fitch-bred suburban gangster who was still an enormous bully and snarker.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:48 am

Incidentally, my favourite wrestling brand is (NSFW) WEW.
Actually, it isn't. TNA is, simply because it doesn't fall into so many of the traps WWE does and is of a higher standard. Especially the Knockouts (their answer to the Divas) - they're well-trained and know how to actually wrestle, their matches are more than 30 seconds long (and sometimes draw blood - they have ladder matches and everything just like the men, as opposed to the Divas "matches" being sex-related gimmicks or swimsuit contests) and you're even supposed to care about their matches. Sometimes they'll get a couple of matches (Title and No. 1 Contendership, usually) on the one PPV.
The one problem is that people hold the title for far too long at a time. I mean, Angle held at least one title for at least a hundred years, and Samoa Joe is rarely seen without gold, then there's Awesome Kong who looked set to hold the gold forever. I was so glad when The Beautiful People defeated her - they're a heel team I actually like.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:47 pm

It doesn't look all that NSFW, no more than those ridiculous 'bra and panties' matches WWE is infamous for.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:53 pm

I wouldn't call *that* safe for work, either. But it has some random sex scenes, and occasional naked matches. Note that it ALSO has TLC matches and "Barbed wire baseball bat is suspended above the ring." matches. Some of them can rival the Hell in a Cell of your choice.
Amusingly enough, Talia Madison (Velvet Sky) is actually more erotic (wears less, makes more sexual movements etc.) in TNA than she was in WEW.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Mask_De_H
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Post by Mask_De_H » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:27 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:I have more respect for heels than for faces, because anyone would like to go out there to cheers and women flashing their breasts. It takes giant balls to go out and get booed by a couple thousand people.
> -Username17

Although Frank, a lot of wrestlers actually prefer (or say they prefer) being heels because they like trolling the crowd in essence. That, and it's really hard to connect with the fans as a face without becoming stale.
I watch the WWE every once in awhile, can't stand TNA and mainly watch assorted indies, lucha, and puroresu.
One of the top guys in puro, Mitsuharu Misawa died due to spinal complications a few days ago after losing consciousness in the ring due to a backdrop. He was 46, and five days away from his 47th birthday.

> FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.

> K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.

> Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.

> Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.

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Sir Neil
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Post by Sir Neil » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:03 am

> A_Cynic wrote:Hey, you can't forget, the hitman's Pink Shades.

I wear eyeglasses, so I never get the chance to wear decorative ones.

> But I thought it was the other way around though Black shirts with Pink pants.

Depends. Besides, pink pants are difficult to find in my size.

> Come on, Sir Neil, you know you want to go on a routine arrest wearing this --

Yes, I do. And I did go on one arrest with rainbow-painted fingernails, a mohawk, and a Hawaiian shirt.
Last edited by Sir Neil on Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cynic
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Post by Cynic » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:02 am

> wrote:

> > Come on, Sir Neil, you know you want to go on a routine arrest wearing this --

> Yes, I do. And I did go on one arrest with rainbow-painted fingernails, a mohawk, and a Hawaiian shirt.

John McClane, Dirty Harry, and Axel Foley Foley have nothing on Sir Neil.

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:38 am

Oh hey, that's Velvet Sky. Hi, Velvet Sky.
You know, this is beyond the pale, but why do certain forms of entertainment expect you to jump through ridiculous hoops for your shameful softcore porn? I mean, why pay the BIG CASH needed to look at Women's Erotic Extreme Wrestling when I could just, oh, look at free online videos?
THINK ABOut IT MANG

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:24 am

I really like Velvet Sky, I find her extremely attractive and her in-ring movements do it for me. I'd be willing to pay the substantial fee to see her wrestling naked. So naturally, in WEW she was always clothed (moreso than in TNA, in fact) and did proper wrestling.
Although she has probably always been a dirty fighter, even when a face - I almost always see her relying on strikes, biting, cheap-shots and so on, with just a handful of varied wrestling moves thrown in for good measure.
But in all other cases, yeah, I hear the Internet has loads of free porn.
Incidentally, it seems the "after X months you can pretend a story line never happened" rule still holds true. I was watching a DVD on the most recent revival of Degeneration X (it was a few years ago), and DX were making life miserable for the McMahons (to be fair: Vince started it). Shane O-Mac said "I will never forgive Triple H and Shawn Michaels for what they have done."
Fast-forward to present day? Yeah, Triple H is teaming up with the McMahon family (currently doing a Face stint) against Randy Orton.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sat May 15, 2010 7:58 am

You know, I still haven't watched wrestling since Eddiesploitation but I still keep a link to the biz through secondary sources like Wrestlecrap and other fans.
And... the whole Mickie Jones thing.
You know, professional wrestling fans are the most tolerant and jaded motherfuckers on the planet. Any fan of any other fandom--and this includes Bleach and Star Trek--would've killed Vince McMahon years ago.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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