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Leress
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### Runic Knight

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Post by Leress » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:58 pm

Runic Knight
"Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!"
Alignment: Any
HD: d12
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Jump, Knowledge (any), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Tumble.
Skps/Level: 4+Int
BAB: Good(1/1)
Saves: Fort good Reflex poor Will good
Level, Benefit
1 Spellcasting, Armored in Runes, Eschew materials, Aura of Defense
2 Designate Opponent, Runic
3 Aura of Resilience
4 Runic Burst, Mettle
5 Aura of Alliance, Nauseating strike
6 Fast Casting, Draw Fire,
7 Runic Bliss, Aura of Resistance
8 Dazing Strike
9 Expanded Aura, Runic Breach
10 Runic Flow, Aura of Bannwiderstand
11 Runic Retort,
12 Proactive Defense, Runic Restoration
13 Helpless Strike
14 Runic Twist, Runic Shift
15 Runic Sealstrike
16 Aura of Reality, Decoy
17 Runic Restrict
18 Runic Entwine
19 Runic Sphere
20 Arcanum
Weapon and Armor Proficiency : All simple and martial weapons, no armor no shields
Spellcasting:A Runic Knight is an Arcane Spellcaster with the same spell per day as a sorcerer, except that he gains no more than four spell slots per level. A Runic Knights spells are drawn from the Runic Knights list. When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the Runic Knight's list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list.
To cast a Runic Knight spell, she must have an Intelligence at least equal to 10+ the spell level. The DC of the Runic Knight's spells are Intelligence based and the bonus spells are Intelligence based.
Auras: Aura bonuses from multiple runic knights overlap. Aura functions while the Runic Knight is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.
Armored in Runes (su): The Runic Knight has a +4 armor bonus to AC, that also adds to her touch AC and incorporeal touch AC. This bonus improves by +1/3 class levels.
Aura of Defense (Su):a RK gains a resistance bonus to saving throws equal 3 + 1/5 class levels. All allies within close range gain half this bonus.
Eschew materials: gains Eschew materials as a bonus feat.
Designate Opponent (Ex): as a swift action, a RK may mark an opponent as their primary foe. This foe must be within medium range and be able to hear the RK challenge. If the target creature inflicts any damage on the RK before the Knight's next turn, the attempt fails. Otherwise, any attacks the Knight uses against the opponent during her next turn inflict an extra d6 of damage for every 3 levels of RK. This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally alloted by her BAB.
Runic (su): at 2nd level, a RK can attempt to counter-spell any spell or spell-like ability within medium range. This counts off as an attack of opportunity for the round. Unlike readying a normal counter-spell action, when using runic, a RK doesn't need to have an appropriate spell or dispel magic available. Instead whenever any caster attempts to cast a spell or creature attempts to use a spell-like ability, she makes a dispel check against the spell or spell-like ability. (unlike dispel magic, this dispel check has no cap.) If she succeeds, she absorbs the spell or spell-like ability, and it has no effect, as if she'd countered it. This energy lingers in her body for 1 round. This energy can be used to fuel her other runic abilities.
Since you use Runic in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one).
Aura of Resilience (su): a RK gains DR X/-, where X equal half her RK levels +2 (round down), your allies with in Close range gain half this bonus (round down)
Runic Burst (Su): as a standard action , a RK gathers the spell energy absorbed through runic into her runic weapon and thrusts it out at a creature with in close range as a ranged attack, creating a single burst of energy. A successful hit deals +1d6 of force damage per level of the spell absorbed. She may also use her own spell to fuel this ability without any increase of time (having your spell absorbed is part of the action)
Mettle (Ex): A RK who succeeds at a Fortitude Partial or Willpower Partial save takes no effect as if she had immunity.
Aura of Alliance (Su): A RK gains immunity to compulsion and charm effects. All allies within close range gain a +4 bonus to saves verses compulsion and charm effects.
Dazing strike (Ex): As a swift action, any opponent that you strike with damage from Designate Opponent must make a Will save (DC=10+ 1/2 RK level+ Int). If successful there is no effect. If the save is failed than the target is dazed for 1 round.
Fast Casting (Ex): A runic knight can cast any spell on her list from the Abjuration school as a swift action.
Draw Fire (Ex): A RK can exploit the weakness of unintelligent opponents. With a swift action, she may pique the interest of any mindless opponent within medium range. That creature must make a Will save (DC 10 +1/2 HD+ Con mod) or spend all of its actions moving towards or attacking the Knight. This effect ends after a number of rounds equal to the RK's class level.
Runic Bliss (Su): as a move action, a RK disperses the spell energy absorbed through their body to heal wounds. The RK and all allies within close range heal an amount of damage equal to 1d6 per spell level absorbed. She may also use her own spell to fuel this ability without any increase of time (having your spell absorbed is part of the action).
Aura of Resistance (Su): A RK gains energy resistance to all energy types equal to 2xRK level. All allies within close range get half this bonus.
Nauseating Strike (Ex): As a swift action, any opponent that you strike with damage from Designate Opponent, they must make a Fort save (DC=10+ 1/2 RK level + Int). If successful there is no effect and damage is resolved as usual. If the save is failed than the target is nauseated for 1 round
Expanded Aura: All Auras of the RK increase their range to medium.
Runic Breach (Su): as a standard action, a RK gathers the spell absorbed through runic and thrusts it out to a creature within medium range as a ranged touch attack, forcing the creature to make a Fort save (DC 10 + 1/2 RK class level+ Int mod). Success indicates that the energy of the absorbed spell is used up with no effect. Failure indicates that the creature's SR is lowered by 3 x spell absorbed for a number of rounds equal to the RK Int mod+1 (min 1). She may also use her own spell to fuel this ability without any increase of time (having your spell absorbed is part of the action)
Runic Flow: You may combine two runic effects as a standard action, you need one spell to fuel each of the effects. You may choose a new target for the second runic ability.
Aura of Bannwiderstand (Su): A RK gains SR equal to 15+ RK level. All allies within close range gain the same bonus.
Runic Retort (Su): Instead of absorbing the spell with runic it is reflected back as per Spell Turning effect. The spell retorted cannot be used to fuel other runic abilities.
Proactive Defense (Ex): A RK can cast any spell on her list from the Abjuration school as an immediate or swift action.
Runic Restoration (Su): as a standard action, a RK can recover an amount of ability damage or drain equal to the level of the spell absorbed. She may also use her own spell to fuel this ability without any increase of time (having your spell absorbed is part of the action)
Helpless strike (Ex): As a swift action, any opponent that you strike with damage from designate opponent, they must make a Reflex save (DC +1/2 RK level+Int). If successful there is no effect and damage is resolved as usual. If the save is failed than the target is helpless for 1 round.
Runic Twist: You may combine three runic effects as a standard action you need one spell to fuel each of the effects. You may choose a new target for the second and third runic ability.
Runic Shift (Su): as a swift action you can teleport yourself and everything you are physically carrying up to a number of feet equal to (10 times the absorbed spell's level) +10 in any direction. She may also use her own spell to fuel this ability without any increase of time (having your spell absorbed it part of the action)
Runic Seal-strike (Su): as a standard action, a RK can channel the spell energy absorbed through runic to allow her to sever her target's access to its spells. This can target any creature within medium range. The target makes a Reflex save (DC=10+1/2 RK level+ Int). If successful the creatures take no effect from this ability. If the creature fails then it is subject to a personal anti-magic field that prevents all spell casting, spell-like abilities and suppresses all supernatural abilities for 1d4 rounds. She may also use her own spell to fuel this ability without any increase of time (having your spell absorbed is part of the action)
Aura of Reality (Su): An RK gain immunity to mind affecting spells and effects. All allies within close range gain a +4 to saves verses mind affecting spells and effects.
Decoy (Ex): A RK can exploit the weakness of many opponents. With a swift action, she may pique the interest of any number of opponents within medium range. Each creature must make a Willpower save (DC 10 +1/2 HD+ Con mod) or spend all of its action moving towards or attacking the Knight. This effect ends after a number of rounds equal to the RK's class level.
Runic Restrict (Su): as a standard action, a RK prevents all [Teleport] effects from entering or exiting within long range of your location. This last a number of round equal to the absorbed spell's level. She may also use her own spell to fuel this ability without any increase of time (having your spell absorbed it part of the action)
Runic Entwine: You may combine four runic effects as a standard action you need one spell to fuel each of the effects. You may choose a new target for the second, third, and fourth runic ability.
Runic Sphere(Su):as a standard action , a RK gathers the spell energy absorbed through runic into her runic weapon and thrusts it out at all creatures with in medium range in an area of a 20-ft.radius spread, creating a single sphere of energy. A successful hit deals 1d6 of force damage + 1d6 per level of the spell absorbed a Reflex save (DC=10+spell absorbed+Int) for half damage. She may also use her own spell to fuel this ability without any increase of time (having your spell absorbed is part of the action)
Arcanum (Su): As a full round action, a RK can channel the spell energy absorbed through runic to allow her to sever her target's access to all magic and bolster her allies. This can target any creature within close range. The target makes a Will save (DC=5+[total spell levels absorbed]+ Int). If successful the creatures take no effect from this ability. If the creature fails then it is subject to a personal anti magic field prevents all spell casting, spell-like abilities and suppresses all supernatural abilities and a personal Mage's Disjunction for 1 round. Also all allies within close range gain the benefits of auras as though they were a runic knight for the same amount of time. She may also use her own spells to fuel this ability without any increase of time (having your spells absorbed is part of the action)
Runic Knights Spell list
0-Resistance,Detect Magic, Read magic, Arcane Mark, Guidance, light
1-Alarm, Endure Elements,Protection from chaos/Evil/Law/Good, Shield, Comprehend languages, Entropic Shield,
2-Protection from Arrows, Resist energy, Locate object, See invisibility, Shield Other,
3-Dispel magic,Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Law/Good, Non detection, Arcane Sight, Tongues, slow
4-Globe of invulnerability, lesser, Remove Curse, Stone Skin, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Scrying, Death Ward, Spell Immunity
5-Break Enchantment,Mage's Private Sanctum,Prying Eyes, Telepathic Bond, Mage’s Faithful Hound
6-Anti magic field, Greater Dispel Magic, Globe of invulnerability, Guards and Wards, Repulsion, True Seeing,Analyze Dweomer,
7-Spell Turning, Greater Arcane Sight, greater Scrying,Sequester,Prismatic Spray
8-Mind Blank,Protection from Spells, Discern Location, Greater Prying Eyes, Moment of Prescience,Prismatic Wall, Greater Spell Immunity
9-Mage's Disjunction, Prismatic Sphere, Foresight, Imprisonment, Freedom
Last edited by Leress on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:05 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Talisman
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Talisman » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:01 am

Blearrgh! This is overpowered!
...
Okay, here's some actual feedback.
I do believe this is overpowered. At a glance, you've got full BAB, two good saves, 4 base SP's, a d12 HD, full (albeit limited) spellcasting, AND a pile of special abilities. This is essentially a sorcerer with slightly fewer spells and limited spell selection, but with the barbarian chassis and a ton of free bennies.
I'd drop the HD to d8 or maybe d10...d12's should be reserved for uber-tough brawlers. I am a bit leery of combining a full BAB + two good saves + full spellcasting, but I'm not expert enough to say for certain.
Those last five levels being totally dead are also kind of worrisome.
Armored in Runes: It's a free ([1/2 level]+4) armor bonus...and it applies to touch attacks. You do realize that, at 20th level, it's equal to +5 ghost touch full plate?
This is kind of odd...why the bonus? Does the RK inscribe his skin/clothing with runes? Do the runes float around him like ioun stones? If none of these...the name of the ability's kind of pointless. I'd be inclined to grant light and medium armor proficiency + Armored Caster.
Designate Opponent: This ability looks OK, although I'd like to see a more "fantasy" name...maybe "Rune-Mark" or "Rune of War" or some such. Also, I'd say the effect persists for only one attack, like a smite...there doesn't seem to be any limit on uses per day, or on conditions (such as a rogue's sneak attack), meaning that a RK could conceiveably use this power, immediately attack (no chance for the foe to damage the RK), and repeat ad infinitum. This gets particularly ugly with a TWF RK...which, since they won't be wearing heavy armor and have a "free" damage source, (less reliance on Str) is entirely likely.
After re-reading this ability, it looks like you may intend that the RK make his challenge, but not gain the benefits until one round later. If so, this needs to be clarified.
Aura of Resilience: Too powerful. The barbarian's DR is less than half this, plus the RK gets to share it with his friends, plus it's gained incredibly early. By the time a barbarian gains DR 1/-, his RK buddy has DR 5/- and the barb has DR 2/- just from hanging around the RK.
Now, if you made this DR/magic (which would fit with the "runes" flavor), it wouldn't be so bad.
Fast Casting: Okay.
Proactive Defense: Okay, I think.
Runic: This ability needs a better name.
Worse, though, it needs clarification. Does using this ability expend a spell or some other resource? If not, the RK gets infinite dispels/counterspells, meaning he'll basically try to counterspell every single hostile spell...and succeed on around half of 'em, in all likelihood. Maybe 30%-40%, given that enemy spellcasters tend to be higher level than the PCs...but that still means that 1/3 of the spells a party faces just plain won't happen.
Also, what do you mean "as an attack of opportunity"? Must the RK be threatening the spellcaster? Or does this just expend one of the RK's AoO's for the round? In any event, what kind of action is it? Immediate forces a decision - counterspell now, or wait and use that immediate/swift action later. No action = no consequences.
I can't really comment further until you clear this up.
Draw Fire: By "mindless" do you actually mean "non-mindless?" Or is this really the ability to taunt skeletons, giant ants, black puddings and stone golems? That's pretty weird.
Why is the DC Con-based? It should be Cha, or possibly Int. Really, it should be Cha, but Int is a lot more plausible than Con.
One round per RK level is an awfully long time...by the time the RK hits 4th or 5th level, that's effectively forever, combat-wise. I recommend a number of rounds equal to Cha mod.
Can you re-taunt creatures that try to flee after the original taunt wears off?
Expanded Aura: You go from party-buffer to army-buffer. I'd rather just see the auras start out at, say, 20' and expand by 5'-10' every couple of levels. 100' + 10'/level is a helluva big radius...an army of goons with a 9th-level RK at the center all gain DR 3/-, as long as they're within 190'...ouch.
Runic Breach: Nice.
Runic Burst: I'm not sure...with the ability to draw on your own spells, you lose that drawback of being denied the evocation/conjuration schools. 1d6 damage/spell level isn't a lot, but it's Force damage (hurts everything), there's no save, it's a ranged touch attack (i.e., 95% chance of success), and the range is damn good. Maybe cut back to Close range.
Runic Bliss:...And now you're a healer as well. This I don't like; as absolute most, it should affect the RK only. Arcane healing is rare and expensive, and this is neither. It's only slightly inferior to divine healing...and it's spontaneous-cast as well, cast at range (!!), and (I assume , although you don't specify) can be used to obliterate undead. Drop it.
Runic Seal-strike: Make it a Will save, not Reflex; cut the duration to one round; and have it affect spellcasting only (not items) and this should be all right. As written, you've just become the anti-caster. You can burn your spells (of which you have plenty) to shut down casters for an average of 2-3 rounds (an eternity in mid-combat) unless they make a Reflex save...which, since it scales with your level and is based off your spellcasting stat, they will fail.
Also, as I read this, you can burn 0-level spells to power this ability. That's gotta go. I'd make this a uses/day ability, based on Charisma (3 + Cha mod uses/day).
Runic Flow: I'd say it still costs a spell for each.
Runic Twist: Ditto.
Runic Retort: Automatically? Isn't there some sort of success chance? Or can you really bounce spells off yourself forever, with no chance of failure?
I'd say that when you use this ability, it's either a dispel check (as with Runic) or you have to expend one of your spells of equal level to power the retort. Even then, I'd be hard-pressed to allow thos to work automatically.
Aura of Defense: Rules nit-pick: IIRC, dodge bonuses (bonii?) apply only to AC. This could be a luck bonus, perhaps.
Dazing strike: On every attack? Hmm...I'd be happier if this was a one-attack-per-round-at-maximum thing, kind of like a monk's Stunning Fist. I suppose the Designated Opponent thing sort of covers that.
Aura of Resistance: Pick an energy type. You can change it as a swift action on your turn. Resistance (2x class level) vs. all energy is a bit much.
Aura of Alliance: Okay.
Aura of Bannwiderstand: I'm sure there's some in-joke I don't get about the name...
The SR thing is okay, but for the love of Cthulhu, don't apply it to everyone! Holy aura, an 8th-level spell, only grants SR 25 (which the RK gets at 10th level), and only against evil spells. Spell resistance, which is gained around the same time, grants SR 12 + level, and only to one character.
If you want this as an aura, have it grant SR 12 + level to the RK, and a +4 resistance bonus on saves to everyone else.
Nauseating Strike: Is this in addition to Dazing Strike? Or do you have to choose between them?
I'd drop the duration to 1 round, or possibly 1d3 rounds. 6 rounds is, effectively, all combat...especially when you can't frikkin' do anything!
Helpless strike: Stunned, man, Stunned is what you're looking for. Stunned and prone, maybe. Helplessness as a result of one blow? Ouch.
Also, see my comments about Dazing Strike on uses/day for both Nauseating Strike and Helpless Strike.
Runic Restoration: See my comments on Runic Bliss. This pushes into the healer's domain quite a bit. I'd limit it to the RK only, and limit the healing to 1 stat point/2 spell levels.
Eschew materials: Okay.
Another suggestion would be to arrange the special abilities in the order in which the class gets them, and possibly refer to the class level in the description ("At 13th level, a RK gains the power to...").

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Username17
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Username17 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:14 am

> At a glance, you've got full BAB, two good saves, 4 base SP's, a d12 HD

All of that is completely meaningless. That's not "at a glance" that's some very minor flavor abiliies. Good and bad saves for example, are worthless beyond compare. Skill points is entirely flavor, BAB is functionally meaningless at almost all levels.
Right, what this guy actually does is stand around with good hit points, a mediocre AC, and casts true strike (and challenges) before charging in with a greatsword. Is that an unbalanced combat strategy? Seriously?
---
The problem I have with it is that there is some crazy crap in Abjuration at high levels which are powerful death magic. What you should do is give it an explicit spell list that has it doing what you want. Slow, for example should be on the list, but banishment probably shouldn't be.
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Bigode
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Bigode » Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:25 pm

Though I didn't go "OMG! That's so broken!", isn't that flat better than the knight?

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Username17 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:19 pm

Runic doesn't do what you think it does. First of all, the character in question casts as a sorcerer, so pearls of power can't be used. But regardless, you're just asking for characters to take Arcane Disciple to get the summoning domain (or something equally stupid) in order to get the ability to cash in a spell slot to make a minor outsider to repeat cast SLAs to refill the character's slots. Almost certainly not how it's supposed to work. Also, not super clear what you mean by the "as an attack of opportunity" - I assume that you mean that you count off your attack of opportunity for the round if you use it (or one of them if you Combat Reflex), but it could also be interpreted that you have to be owed an attack of opportunity at the time, which is plain unlikely given its range.
Also, there's a bunch of Complete: Whatever spells that push the limits of what this character is supposed to be doing. Honestly, the ability to cast critical strike four times at first level makes this guy overshadow a Rogue in a lot of ways. You are really going to want a fixed and non-expandable spell list.
Dazing Strike combos too well with Designate Opponent. Once you pull it off, your target can be designated again and will be in no condition to break the Tekken Juggle. I'd suggest having a use of Dazing Strike use up a Swift Action so that you couldn't designate in the same turn.
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JonSetanta
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by JonSetanta » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:27 am

About Frank's statement on good saves vs. bad saves: months ago I struggled to understand why Frank makes this statement, but there is 4e mention of "all base save values are equal to half of the character's level" and then something about adding classes gives +2 to matching saves.
It really was a dumb decision to give 3.x the 'poor save' progression.
But SP and BAB aren't always worthless. Given the number of synergies in 3.x that involve striking and skills, it does matter.
One could, however, make a setting that renders such things meaningless, but as it is the game does need variation between class capabilities.
I mean, imagine... if what Frank claims is true, why are there no full casters with d12 HP, full BAB, all good saves?
Something is amiss. It's no illusion or fallacy that powerful, versatile full casters get and should usually get weak Hit Dice.

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Username17 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:35 am

Hit dice used to be all of your hit points. Now they aren't. The Constitution bonuses you get from bullshit magic is often +6 or more, which is the difference between a d4 and a d10.
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Bigode
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Bigode » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:36 am

Sigma, the "fragile" casters are better at absolutely everything than say, PHB barbarians in the hands of someone who knows what to do. The fact that stuff was structured the way it was could say anything if it hadn't been shown multiple times that, while we should cut the 3.0 designers some slack for making the thing in the first place, no insight beyond what little there was in the start was added as of 3.5.
OTOH, I did come to the conclusion that the RoW knight is a much better archer than this guy. Is just that the reason why adding spells wouldn't be too much?

> Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.

> Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)

> brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Leress » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:04 am

> Talisman at [unixtime wrote:1200103264[/unixtime]]Blearrgh! This is overpowered!
> ...
> Okay, here's some actual feedback.

Okay

> I do believe this is overpowered. At a glance, you've got full BAB, two good saves, 4 base SP's, a d12 HD, full (albeit limited) spellcasting, AND a pile of special abilities. This is essentially a sorcerer with slightly fewer spells and limited spell selection, but with the barbarian chassis and a ton of free bennies.

Okay

> I'd drop the HD to d8 or maybe d10...d12's should be reserved for uber-tough brawlers. I am a bit leery of combining a full BAB + two good saves + full spellcasting, but I'm not expert enough to say for certain.

This class is expected to get hit alot, so the HD will not change

> Those last five levels being totally dead are also kind of worrisome.

It is a WIP, and I might just make it 15 levels unless I can think of some new abilities

> Armored in Runes: It's a free ([1/2 level]+4) armor bonus...and it applies to touch attacks. You do realize that, at 20th level, it's equal to +5 ghost touch full plate?
> This is kind of odd...why the bonus? Does the RK inscribe his skin/clothing with runes? Do the runes float around him like ioun stones? If none of these...the name of the ability's kind of pointless. I'd be inclined to grant light and medium armor proficiency + Armored Caster.

At 20th level a cleric has better armor than that. Does it really matter where the runes are located? Armored Caster is a joke. It takes up too much space to put it on when this ability covers it all.

> Designate Opponent: This ability looks OK, although I'd like to see a more "fantasy" name...maybe "Rune-Mark" or "Rune of War" or some such. Also, I'd say the effect persists for only one attack, like a smite...there doesn't seem to be any limit on uses per day, or on conditions (such as a rogue's sneak attack), meaning that a RK could conceiveably use this power, immediately attack (no chance for the foe to damage the RK), and repeat ad infinitum. This gets particularly ugly with a TWF RK...which, since they won't be wearing heavy armor and have a "free" damage source, (less reliance on Str) is entirely likely.
> After re-reading this ability, it looks like you may intend that the RK make his challenge, but not gain the benefits until one round later. If so, this needs to be clarified.

You can't twf with it, read the last line (This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally alloted by her BAB.) It is already limited, there are conditions.

> Aura of Resilience: Too powerful. The barbarian's DR is less than half this, plus the RK gets to share it with his friends, plus it's gained incredibly early. By the time a barbarian gains DR 1/-, his RK buddy has DR 5/- and the barb has DR 2/- just from hanging around the RK.
> Now, if you made this DR/magic (which would fit with the "runes" flavor), it wouldn't be so bad.

The RK job is to protect herself and allies. Also this is a Supernatural ability so in anti-magic areas this goes away. Also energy damage isn't reduced either.

> Runic: This ability needs a better name.
> Worse, though, it needs clarification. Does using this ability expend a spell or some other resource? If not, the RK gets infinite dispels/counterspells, meaning he'll basically try to counterspell every single hostile spell...and succeed on around half of 'em, in all likelihood. Maybe 30%-40%, given that enemy spellcasters tend to be higher level than the PCs...but that still means that 1/3 of the spells a party faces just plain won't happen.
> Also, what do you mean "as an attack of opportunity"? Must the RK be threatening the spellcaster? Or does this just expend one of the RK's AoO's for the round? In any event, what kind of action is it? Immediate forces a decision - counterspell now, or wait and use that immediate/swift action later. No action = no consequences.
> I can't really comment further until you clear this up.

Working on clearing this ability up, and the name stays.

> Draw Fire: By "mindless" do you actually mean "non-mindless?" Or is this really the ability to taunt skeletons, giant ants, black puddings and stone golems? That's pretty weird.
> Why is the DC Con-based? It should be Cha, or possibly Int. Really, it should be Cha, but Int is a lot more plausible than Con.
> One round per RK level is an awfully long time...by the time the RK hits 4th or 5th level, that's effectively forever, combat-wise. I recommend a number of rounds equal to Cha mod.
> Can you re-taunt creatures that try to flee after the original taunt wears off?

No I meant Mindless like golems, undead, and oozes. That is the whole point of the ability if you can't keep them drawn than is pretty much pointless. You can redraw if they fail the save.

> Expanded Aura: You go from party-buffer to army-buffer. I'd rather just see the auras start out at, say, 20' and expand by 5'-10' every couple of levels. 100' + 10'/level is a helluva big radius...an army of goons with a 9th-level RK at the center all gain DR 3/-, as long as they're within 190'...ouch.

Yeah that is the idea.

> Runic Burst: I'm not sure...with the ability to draw on your own spells, you lose that drawback of being denied the evocation/conjuration schools. 1d6 damage/spell level isn't a lot, but it's Force damage (hurts everything), there's no save, it's a ranged touch attack (i.e., 95% chance of success), and the range is damn good. Maybe cut back to Close range.

Other can kill you are further distances than this.

> Runic Bliss:...And now you're a healer as well. This I don't like; as absolute most, it should affect the RK only. Arcane healing is rare and expensive, and this is neither. It's only slightly inferior to divine healing...and it's spontaneous-cast as well, cast at range (!!), and (I assume , although you don't specify) can be used to obliterate undead. Drop it.

Read the ability...allies only so the RK can't kill undead. Glad is not arcane healing then clerics can still out heal, at best this ability is not good as the heal spell.

> Runic Seal-strike: Make it a Will save, not Reflex; cut the duration to one round; and have it affect spellcasting only (not items) and this should be all right. As written, you've just become the anti-caster. You can burn your spells (of which you have plenty) to shut down casters for an average of 2-3 rounds (an eternity in mid-combat) unless they make a Reflex save...which, since it scales with your level and is based off your spellcasting stat, they will fail.
> Also, as I read this, you can burn 0-level spells to power this ability. That's gotta go. I'd make this a uses/day ability, based on Charisma (3 + Cha mod uses/day).

I had to make a use for cantrips at higher levels, and making it reflex is the save to target when you want to stop casters.

> Runic Flow: I'd say it still costs a spell for each.
> Runic Twist: Ditto.

Maybe...

> Runic Retort: Automatically? Isn't there some sort of success chance? Or can you really bounce spells off yourself forever, with no chance of failure?
> I'd say that when you use this ability, it's either a dispel check (as with Runic) or you have to expend one of your spells of equal level to power the retort. Even then, I'd be hard-pressed to allow thos to work automatically.

If it meet the conditions of Runic that is when you can retort, it is a spell turning effect.

> Aura of Defense: Rules nit-pick: IIRC, dodge bonuses (bonii?) apply only to AC. This could be a luck bonus, perhaps.

Making it a luck bonus makes it powerful (also I detest any luck related mechanic)

> SRD wrote:Dodge Bonus
> A dodge bonus improves Armor Class (and sometimes Reflex saves) resulting from physical skill at avoiding blows and other ill effects. Dodge bonuses are never granted by spells or magic items. Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have. Dodge bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC, even other dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses apply against touch attacks.

It can be for saves too.

> Dazing strike: On every attack? Hmm...I'd be happier if this was a one-attack-per-round-at-maximum thing, kind of like a monk's Stunning Fist. I suppose the Designated Opponent thing sort of covers that.

This will be changed to a swift action

> Aura of Resistance: Pick an energy type. You can change it as a swift action on your turn. Resistance (2x class level) vs. all energy is a bit much.

No really at 20 level you have 40 resistance and some monster can still get damage over this...a lot

> Aura of Bannwiderstand: I'm sure there's some in-joke I don't get about the name...
> The SR thing is okay, but for the love of Cthulhu, don't apply it to everyone! Holy aura, an 8th-level spell, only grants SR 25 (which the RK gets at 10th level), and only against evil spells. Spell resistance, which is gained around the same time, grants SR 12 + level, and only to one character.
> If you want this as an aura, have it grant SR 12 + level to the RK, and a +4 resistance bonus on saves to everyone else.

The word Bannwiderstand is german for spell resistance (thanks babel fish ) Why not give it to everyone? The RK job is to protect her allies as well as herself.

> Nauseating Strike: Is this in addition to Dazing Strike? Or do you have to choose between them?
> I'd drop the duration to 1 round, or possibly 1d3 rounds. 6 rounds is, effectively, all combat...especially when you can't frikkin' do anything!

6 rounds at best. Average of 3 rounds, and yes it would have been in conjuction with Dazing strike (but now that one is changing)

> Helpless strike: Stunned, man, Stunned is what you're looking for. Stunned and prone, maybe. Helplessness as a result of one blow? Ouch.
> Also, see my comments about Dazing Strike on uses/day for both Nauseating Strike and Helpless Strike.

No, I mean helpless. Prone??? why it really doesn't do all that much. Anyone can be made Helpless, anyone can be dazed, anyone can be nauseated. There are many creatures immune to stunning and there are some that can't be prone.

> Runic Restoration: See my comments on Runic Bliss. This pushes into the healer's domain quite a bit. I'd limit it to the RK only, and limit the healing to 1 stat point/2 spell levels.

Not really, it still costs a spell to do it.

> Another suggestion would be to arrange the special abilities in the order in which the class gets them, and possibly refer to the class level in the description ("At 13th level, a RK gains the power to...").

Okay It is still a work in progress...
As for Frank's suggestion their will be a re-written Runic and a fixed spell list. The wording in other abilities will be cleaned up and I will just edit the first post with the revisions.
Thanks for the critique.
Yeah, it really does seem to be flat out better than the RoW Knight.

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Leress » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:13 pm

Revised

- Runic
- Dazing Strike
- Made a spell list (will add more)
- Trying to decide to leave at 15 levels or make it 20

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by JonSetanta » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:17 am

20 please!
I'll give suggestions for 16-20 level abilities if needed, but for now my advice is to emulate high level PrC abilities, or maybe something like high level Tome Monk powers.

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Leress » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:32 am

Suggestions are always welcome.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Bigode » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:34 pm

Get it working right until 15. Then add 5 - shouldn't be too difficult.
Dazing strike, after the revision, is an extra attack as a swift action, and doesn't require designate opponent to have worked - I suppose what Frank actually meant was to maintain the requirement, and use up a swift action to make one of your normal attacks daze.
Also, nauseating and helpless strike should require exactly the same - they combine with designate opponent in the exact same way.
But, if you guys allow me the honesty, I'm not sure I really get why Frank was upset with that - it requires designate opponent to activate in the first place (i.e., it requires a tactical error/inflexibility, and doesn't work on surprise at all), and it requires failing saving throws. Isn't it worse than a fair part of battlefield control against most opposition?

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by JonSetanta » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:43 am

Designating opponents each round slows combat.
Imagine if half the enemies in a large group some party fights had Dodge, and some of the players too.
Each round, they declare their opponent, attack, move.
Take out the declare action, and you have maybe a few seconds more for each player. The effect is much more noticable with more players over multiple battles.
My vote is for Dodge-like effects to just flat out "+1 Dodge AC" but even my current GM argued against this.
"It's impossible for your character to dodge against someone that they don't know is there."
So I demonstrated facing in D&D, where all units face all directions at once.
He didn't seem to understand, and demonstrated how "the previous campaign went", where any new opponent entering melee against a flanked target treats the target as flat footed.
"Are we using D&D rules here?" I said "Because if there are weird changes like this, we need to know what they are ahead of time."
And then my girlfriend told me to shut up and just go with it.
So, anyway.
Some spell effects a Runic Knight could emulate would be:
Spell Turning
Symbol of Stunning
Symbol of Weakness
Dimensional Lock
Symbol of Death
Soul Bind (imprisoned in a rune on the knight's body)

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Talisman » Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:44 am

> Leress at [unixtime wrote:1200193464[/unixtime]] This class is expected to get hit alot, so the HD will not change

The fighter (stop laughing!) and paladin are also expected to get beat on a lot, and both have d10 HD. The barbarian's giant d12 HD is supposedly kinda special, and I don't really see anything about the RK that screams "Tough as an Adamantine Boulder."
While the melee classes have their problems, I don't think a small HD is one of them.

> At 20th level a cleric has better armor than that. Does it really matter where the runes are located? Armored Caster is a joke. It takes up too much space to put it on when this ability covers it all.

Does it matter? Mechanically, no; from a flavor standpoint, yes. Can you look at a guy and guess he's a RK from the glowing runes floating around him? Does the RK spend time enruning his skin and clothing? Are they tattoos, or metallic, or what? Etc.
Why the hate for armored caster? "You can cast RK spells in light or medium armor with no spell failure chance." There, is that so terrible?

> You can't twf with it, read the last line (This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally alloted by her BAB.) It is already limited, there are conditions.

You mean this line?

> This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally alloted by her BAB.

A 6th-level, full-BAB character with TWF and ImpTWF has a total of four attacks due to her BAB. A flurrying monk can do even better. If you mean to exclude such cases, you need to be more specific.

> The RK job is to protect herself and allies. Also this is a Supernatural ability so in anti-magic areas this goes away. Also energy damage isn't reduced either.

Lots of anti-magic areas lying around, are there? I still say this is overpowered.

> No I meant Mindless like golems, undead, and oozes. That is the whole point of the ability if you can't keep them drawn than is pretty much pointless. You can redraw if they fail the save.

Well, this makes little sense to me, but I understand your intent here. I just don't like that an iron golem, mystically bound to do [x] and only [x], would immediately ignore these hardwired orders due to some ability gained at 2nd level. Oh, it gets a Will save...because mindless creatures usually have respectable Will saves...

> Other can kill you are further distances than this.

"Others can do it better" doesn't mean this ability is correctly balanced. A 1st-level PC with a longbow can kill you from 1,000 away if he rolls really well. Does this mean all long-ranged attacks should start at 1,000' and go out from there?

> Read the ability...allies only so the RK can't kill undead. Glad is not arcane healing then clerics can still out heal, at best this ability is not good as the heal spell.

Heal is a 6th-level spell, meaining it's available at 11th level. Runic bliss is available at 7th. Of course heal is better.
Let's assume the 7th-level RK is adventuring with 3 of his buddies. He burns a 3rd-level spell for runic bliss. This heals 3d6 damage - to each character - for a total of 12d6, or an average of 42. By comparison, cure critical wounds (4th level) cast by a 7th-level caster heals 4d8+7 hp (average of 25 points) to one character. And it has a range of touch; runic bliss is an area-effect.
It could be argued that our example heals only 10-11 points per character, thus requiring two spells to equal CCW's one. However, this is double the healing for everyone, for an average of 84 total points healed.
Runic bliss is almost twice as powerful as any healing spell of equivalent level, plus it's got range.

> I had to make a use for cantrips at higher levels, and making it reflex is the save to target when you want to stop casters.

But it makes no sense that a measly flare spell could be transmuted into a force that utterly destroys casters for up to 4 rounds. It also makes no sense that such an assault requires a Reflex save.
It remainds me of an old GM of mine, who made Climb Dex-based because "monks and rogues need it to be that way." My response (playing a wizard) was "Fine; make Tumble Int-based. Wizards need it to be that way."
It also makes no sense that the level of the spell burned has no effect on the outcome. Detect magic or wail of the banshee both have equal chances of success.

> Making it a luck bonus makes it powerful (also I detest any luck related mechanic)

I stand corrected regarding the dodge bonus. However, making it a luck bonus actually weakens it a trifle, as dodge bonuses stack with everything, including each other, while luck bonuses do not.
What have you got against luck mechanics?

> The word Bannwiderstand is german for spell resistance (thanks babel fish ) Why not give it to everyone? The RK job is to protect her allies as well as herself.

Then give everyone else a weaker version of it (SR 10 + level, even). This is just flat-out too powerful.

> No, I mean helpless. Prone??? why it really doesn't do all that much. Anyone can be made Helpless, anyone can be dazed, anyone can be nauseated. There are many creatures immune to stunning and there are some that can't be prone.

Prone gives you a +4 on attacks and forces the enemy to waste an action standing up; I'd hardly call that "not all that much."
Undead, constructs and oozes can be dazed and nauseated? That's just gorgonshit; I don't care if it's RAW-legal. Don't embrace the stupidity.
I can toss you some ideas for high-level abilities...not now, though...me is busy...me go bye-bye...

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Username17 » Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:33 am

> A 6th-level, full-BAB character with TWF and ImpTWF has a total of four attacks due to her BAB. A flurrying monk can do even better. If you mean to exclude such cases, you need to be more specific.

No. They have 2 attacks from BAB. They have one bonus attack from TWF, and a really shitty bonus attack from ITWF. But the number of BAB attacks is defeined at the beginning of the PHB. It doesn't change when you have abilities which grant you extra attacks.
Monk Flurry hasn't given you extra BAB attacks since the 3.5 revisions.

> Let's assume the 7th-level RK is adventuring with 3 of his buddies. He burns a 3rd-level spell for runic bliss. This heals 3d6 damage - to each character - for a total of 12d6, or an average of 42.

Hold the phone. Are you honestly suggesting that healing 10 points of damage in an area of effect makes a god damned bit of difference at 7th level? Have you ever played at 7th level?

> Undead, constructs and oozes can be dazed and nauseated? That's just gorgonshit; I don't care if it's RAW-legal. Don't embrace the stupidity.

You'd prefer it if they could cast the time borrowing spells with no ill effects?
Dazed is just a condition where you lose a round's actions. Most effects that daze you are [Mind Affecting] or allow Fort saves. But the ones that aren't or don't work on constructs and undead. Why create a new mechanic which does exactly the same thing as an existing mechanic when there's an already existing mechanic?
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Leress » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:47 am

> Talisman at [unixtime wrote:1200447866[/unixtime]]
> The fighter (stop laughing!) and paladin are also expected to get beat on a lot, and both have d10 HD. The barbarian's giant d12 HD is supposedly kinda special, and I don't really see anything about the RK that screams "Tough as an Adamantine Boulder."
> While the melee classes have their problems, I don't think a small HD is one of them.

Never said it was a problem, but since this character is made to draw enemies towards her, she is expected to get hit more. Also d12 HD isn't special PHB2 Knights get it as well. A character with d10 HD and gets improved toughness gets it as well.

> Does it matter? Mechanically, no; from a flavor standpoint, yes. Can you look at a guy and guess he's a RK from the glowing runes floating around him? Does the RK spend time enruning his skin and clothing? Are they tattoos, or metallic, or what? Etc.
> Why the hate for armored caster? "You can cast RK spells in light or medium armor with no spell failure chance." There, is that so terrible?

There is a long story of why I dislike Armor Caster and it has to do with why it is there in the first place. The reason for it is to bypass Arcane spell chance failure (which is caused by the somatic components of spells) yet divine casters don't get a the same penalty even though their spell have somatic components as well. Also wearing armor slows the character down and they can use tumble if they are wearing heavier armor. Flavor is very mutable so it really doesn't matter to me. The rune are their they...they protect you that's it. Characters don't have their class stamp on their head.

> You mean this line?

> > This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally alloted by her BAB.

> A 6th-level, full-BAB character with TWF and ImpTWF has a total of four attacks due to her BAB. A flurrying monk can do even better. If you mean to exclude such cases, you need to be more specific.

At 6th level you have two...

> SRD wrote:Base Attack Bonus
> A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.

You have two that is it. Extra attacks are not the same as Base Attack Bonus.

> Lots of anti-magic areas lying around, are there? I still say this is overpowered.

Okay...

> Well, this makes little sense to me, but I understand your intent here. I just don't like that an iron golem, mystically bound to do [x] and only [x], would immediately ignore these hardwired orders due to some ability gained at 2nd level. Oh, it gets a Will save...because mindless creatures usually have respectable Will saves...

Usually it is to attack intruders, you just make your self more of a higher priority target.

> "Others can do it better" doesn't mean this ability is correctly balanced. A 1st-level PC with a longbow can kill you from 1,000 away if he rolls really well. Does this mean all long-ranged attacks should start at 1,000' and go out from there?

No, but the chances of that happening are low. But the chances of a wizard hitting with a spell are about 50 percent.

> Heal is a 6th-level spell, meaining it's available at 11th level. Runic bliss is available at 7th. Of course heal is better.
> Let's assume the 7th-level RK is adventuring with 3 of his buddies. He burns a 3rd-level spell for runic bliss. This heals 3d6 damage - to each character - for a total of 12d6, or an average of 42. By comparison, cure critical wounds (4th level) cast by a 7th-level caster heals 4d8+7 hp (average of 25 points) to one character. And it has a range of touch; runic bliss is an area-effect.
> It could be argued that our example heals only 10-11 points per character, thus requiring two spells to equal CCW's one. However, this is double the healing for everyone, for an average of 84 total points healed.
> Runic bliss is almost twice as powerful as any healing spell of equivalent level, plus it's got range.

That is not twice as powerful. It is half as powerful and a better range. Also since the RK have fewer spells that is something you wouldn't just do. It is for patching the wound not complete healing.

> But it makes no sense that a measly flare spell could be transmuted into a force that utterly destroys casters for up to 4 rounds. It also makes no sense that such an assault requires a Reflex save.

Well it they get out of the way they are not effected.

> It remainds me of an old GM of mine, who made Climb Dex-based because "monks and rogues need it to be that way." My response (playing a wizard) was "Fine; make Tumble Int-based. Wizards need it to be that way."

I'm not that GM so I don't care. Skill points make that point moot anyway.

> It also makes no sense that the level of the spell burned has no effect on the outcome. Detect magic or wail of the banshee both have equal chances of success.

If I added the spell level to the save that would just make it ridiculous.

> I stand corrected regarding the dodge bonus. However, making it a luck bonus actually weakens it a trifle, as dodge bonuses stack with everything, including each other, while luck bonuses do not.

Okay...not changing it until I do more playtesting.

> What have you got against luck mechanics?

It is "scrape the barrel" bonuses. Also the concept of luck most of the time only deals with the good part and not the bad. Let the dice be the luck.

> Then give everyone else a weaker version of it (SR 10 + level, even). This is just flat-out too powerful.

More playtesting is needed so far it is not changing.

> Prone gives you a +4 on attacks and forces the enemy to waste an action standing up; I'd hardly call that "not all that much."
> Undead, constructs and oozes can be dazed and nauseated? That's just gorgonshit; I don't care if it's RAW-legal. Don't embrace the stupidity.
> I can toss you some ideas for high-level abilities...not now, though...me is busy...me go bye-bye...

This is 13th level though, making them prone at level 1-5 is okay but now making something prone isn't all that great. Spell are getting thrown around and that is not effected by being prone. There is a lot more stupid than dazing and nauseating. It has to be the most versatile that it can be with the strikes.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by JonSetanta » Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:30 pm

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1200468798[/unixtime]]

> > Let's assume the 7th-level RK is adventuring with 3 of his buddies. He burns a 3rd-level spell for runic bliss. This heals 3d6 damage - to each character - for a total of 12d6, or an average of 42.

> Hold the phone. Are you honestly suggesting that healing 10 points of damage in an area of effect makes a god damned bit of difference at 7th level? Have you ever played at 7th level?

I have, and with similar situations. Frank's statement is partially true; while not worthless, healing 10 in an area only benefits an army of Leadership mooks that could be wiped out with a single AoE anyway.
Unless it's a Swift action or better, you're wasting your turn.
4e designers realized this dilemna, and as such plan to give Clerics the ability to heal self and allies AND do something else on the same action.

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Talisman » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:46 am

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1200468798[/unixtime]
> Hold the phone. Are you honestly suggesting that healing 10 points of damage in an area of effect makes a god damned bit of difference at 7th level? Have you ever played at 7th level?

Take it easy, Frank; I'm not here to fight or be insulted. It's a trivial amout of healing...in combat. However, it's generally a better plan to smack down the bad guys as quickly as possible and then, after combat is over, deal with healing.
It's simple math. A cure wounds spell affects only one character, unless it's one of those lame-ass mass cure wounds deals. Runic bliss, OTOH, is explicitly stated to heal "all allies within Close range" (i.e., 25' + 5'/2 levels). Assuming your standard 4-member adventuring party, runic bliss quadruples the effectiveness of its healing. Toss in 1 or 2 more players, a cohort, animal companion, familiar, etc...this ability gets more and more powerful with more and more allies.
Imagine a situation with 4 PCs, a cohort, and an animal companion. They've just had a tough fight, and taken an average of 30 points of damage each. A 7th-level healer using cure wounds spells will have to burn through about 6 cure critical wounds spells to heal everyone, and that doesn't even heal them up to full. How many 7th-level characters even have that many 4th-level spells?
By contrast, a RK could spend three 3rd-level spells and, on average, heal everyone back to full. The area effect aspect of this hugely multiplies the effectiveness of the spell.
It's no different from positioning a fireball or other area-effect damage spell: hit as many guys as possible.

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Surgo » Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:51 am

> Talisman wrote:Imagine a situation with 4 PCs, a cohort, and an animal companion. They've just had a tough fight, and taken an average of 30 points of damage each. A 7th-level healer using cure wounds spells will have to burn through about 6 cure critical wounds spells to heal everyone, and that doesn't even heal them up to full. How many 7th-level characters even have that many 4th-level spells?

Why would this ever happen when they could just wave a wand of Fast Healing 1 at everyone instead for cheap?
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Leress » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:35 am

> Talisman at [unixtime wrote:1200534376[/unixtime]]
> Imagine a situation with 4 PCs, a cohort, and an animal companion. They've just had a tough fight, and taken an average of 30 points of damage each. A 7th-level healer using cure wounds spells will have to burn through about 6 cure critical wounds spells to heal everyone, and that doesn't even heal them up to full. How many 7th-level characters even have that many 4th-level spells?
> By contrast, a RK could spend three 3rd-level spells and, on average, heal everyone back to full. The area effect aspect of this hugely multiplies the effectiveness of the spell.

The RK could only pull that off once per day... since the highest level spells you have are 3rd and it only get 4 of them. What is the problem, seriously? That isn't a smart thing to do with those slots at that level.
Also who in the hell are we healing? 4 PCs are is vague. What animal companion? What cohort? Give an example with classes in it. If it was a tough battle the RK most likely wouldn't have the 3 level-3 spell available since they were most likely used in combat.
I am getting an average of 31.5 hp of healing to each one of them (clerics and druids would have about 47 hp [with a +1 con mod]) (fighters and barbarians would have more hp) So they would still need some more healing after the RK used its Runic Bliss

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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Talisman » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:28 am

All I'm saying is that it's a deceptively powerful ability, and it gets more poweful the more PCs/cohorts/allies there are in the party.
You're playtesting this guy, which I don't have the ability to do at this time: all I can do is look at the stats. Obviously, you should go with what playtesting shows you. But you wanted input, so I'm offering mine.

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Leress
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Leress » Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:53 am

> Talisman at [unixtime wrote:1200544089[/unixtime]]All I'm saying is that it's a deceptively powerful ability, and it gets more poweful the more PCs/cohorts/allies there are in the party.
> You're playtesting this guy, which I don't have the ability to do at this time: all I can do is look at the stats. Obviously, you should go with what playtesting shows you. But you wanted input, so I'm offering mine.

It is not a deceptively powerful ability. It is a lot weaker than what clerics can do at pretty much every level. It heals the same no matter how many people you have. Cohorts are weaker than you...other allies usually are too. If they are the same level as you then the party's level is for tougher challenges which do more damage. Which in turn makes the healing less significant. You can just look at the stats and see that.
I appreciate the input none the less.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

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> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

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Talisman
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Talisman » Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:45 am

The strength of the individual being healed is irrelevant. A cleric can't heal everyone in the party with one spell (even a small amount) unless he uses one of those mass cure wounds spells. Heck, a RK in a battle, could heal literally dozens of warriors with one spell...although I will admit, that's highly unlikely to be useful in actual play.
Nevertheless, I have made my point and will now be quiet.

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Username17
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### Re: Runic Knight

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Post by Username17 » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:32 am

The key here is that you'd almost never use it combat because the effect is small. And out of combat it doesn't matter how "many" spells you use. Actual non-combat healing is done with charges from cure sticks and healing belts almost exclusively.
No one casts mass cure light because that spell sucks. People just cast cure light wounds over and over again.
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