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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:51 pm

You could always reintroduce the can't use sharp objects rule and then release some really cool swords that clerics can't use because they're sharp. .
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sabs
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Post by sabs » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:04 pm

And have every Cleric of the God of Ares go, "Why the fuck can't I use a sword, that's christian bullshit."
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squirrelloid
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Post by squirrelloid » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:48 pm

> sabs wrote:Clerics are not proficient in heavy armor any more.
> So they're not really a Heavy Fighter. They're a medium fighter with a lot of really good spells.
> They also have 3/4 BAB, and no Holy Smite ability.

They have full BAB: it's a spell. You may have heard of it, divine power.
Holy Smite... I'm sure there's a spell somewhere which comes close. Align Weapon, maybe, at least thematically.
Let's be honest, most clerics could burn the feat on heavy armor proficiency and *not even notice*. Of course, mithril full plate is medium armor, which clerics are proficient in...
Last edited by squirrelloid on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:58 pm

er, all true
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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ishy
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Post by ishy » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:27 pm

Er, no.
In pathfinder divine power no longer gives full bab.
And mithral was nerfed, you still need the feat.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:41 pm

> ishy wrote:Er, no.
> In pathfinder divine power no longer gives full bab.
> And mithral was nerfed, you still need the feat.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spel ... Power.html
you gain more luck bonus by the pathfinder version than additional bab in the 3e version, and you get a bonus attack at your full bab, which divine power didn't. the spell was basically camouflaged for the ZOMG!CLERICFULLBAB-grognards and upgraded behind the scenes. your bonus to damage is a fuckin luck bonus, too btw, because it wouldn't be fair if the cleric couldn't make use of a belt of magnificence now, would it?
Last edited by zugschef on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ishy
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Post by ishy » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:08 pm

Doesn't stack with other spells anymore now though, like quickened divine favour. Nor do boots of speed do anything for you now. While old divine power gave you extra attacks that did stack.
Last edited by ishy on Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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squirrelloid
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Post by squirrelloid » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:53 pm

Backwards compatibility, I hardly knew ye.
Considering Pathfinder only made the wizard/fighter split worse, does anyone actually play that shit? I got turned off the entire endeavour after pleas during playtesting to make fighters playable got totally ignored, despite copious evidence.
Mithril being nerfed probably hurts fighters and barbarians more than clerics, fwiw.
(I'm not sure it can be reasonably argued that paizo Divine Power isn't a strict upgrade, since it reduces the number of buffs you need to throw on yourself, and gives you a higher bonus all day with DMM. And ffs, it gives the luck bonus to *strength checks*, you know, like trip and grapple checks? Cleric is now a better tripper than fighter, there goes the one niche in which fighter was even playable).
Edit: Finally, being non-proficient only means you take the ACP as a penalty to attack rolls (relevantly). A cleric with masterwork mithril full plate is down to an ACP of -2 (-6, +3 for mithril, +1 for masterwork). If you're willing to eat a -2 penalty to your attack rolls, you can simply not care. This probably describes most clerics running around with DMM divine power. Keep in mind the cleric gets to cast magic vestment and greater magic weapon, and the fighter doesn't.
Last edited by squirrelloid on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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squirrelloid
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Post by squirrelloid » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:38 pm

On the subject of Paizo clerics...
Paizo can't be bothered to read its own rules:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/adva ... ant-armor-
It's a cleric spell that mostly creates armor clerics can't actually use normally, but it works in all ways like regular armor, so they take proficiency penalties. WTF.
Eating a -2 ACP to attack rolls? No worries:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/adva ... -of-fervor
+2 untyped attack bonus ftw.
More DMM fun:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ulti ... hon's-aura
Wow, the amount of crazy bonuses you can stack...
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ulti ... ra-of-doom
Between the two of those you can inflict -4 to attack rolls to anything that comes within 20' of you.. I'm not even sure we need to care about heavy armor... (And I'm not even looking at core stuff like Magic Circle vs. Evil, which you totally have up all day).
Not related, but more nonsense from Paizo:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/adva ... pon-of-awe
So, you can't cast it on a specific claw, but you can cast it on an 'unarmed strike', which can be made with anything from the head to the knee and can change between attacks. WTF.
(Also, more damage for clerics, yay!)
Last edited by squirrelloid on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ishy
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Post by ishy » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:25 am

> squirrelloid wrote:Backwards compatibility, I hardly knew ye.

Yeah Backwards compatibility is a lie and always was.

> Mithril being nerfed probably hurts fighters and barbarians more than clerics, fwiw.

Doesn't nerf fighters since they get heavy armour prof.

> (I'm not sure it can be reasonably argued that paizo Divine Power isn't a strict upgrade, since it reduces the number of buffs you need to throw on yourself, and gives you a higher bonus all day with DMM. And ffs, it gives the luck bonus to *strength checks*, you know, like trip and grapple checks? Cleric is now a better tripper than fighter, there goes the one niche in which fighter was even playable).

Clerics don't have Turn undead (they have channel energy instead) any more so I don't think DMM even works. I personally think Divine Favour is worse but ymmv.
Trip and Grapple are not strength checks any more. They are a special kind of attack, the fighter is probably slightly better at tripping. But you don't really care since trip was nerfed greatly.

> A cleric with masterwork mithril full plate is down to an ACP of -2 (-6, +3 for mithril, +1 for masterwork).

Actually I'm pretty sure the ACP is -3, since mithral already includes MW.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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squirrelloid
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Post by squirrelloid » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:17 am

> ishy wrote:

> > squirrelloid wrote:Backwards compatibility, I hardly knew ye.

> Yeah Backwards compatibility is a lie and always was.

> > Mithril being nerfed probably hurts fighters and barbarians more than clerics, fwiw.

> Doesn't nerf fighters since they get heavy armour prof.

> > (I'm not sure it can be reasonably argued that paizo Divine Power isn't a strict upgrade, since it reduces the number of buffs you need to throw on yourself, and gives you a higher bonus all day with DMM. And ffs, it gives the luck bonus to *strength checks*, you know, like trip and grapple checks? Cleric is now a better tripper than fighter, there goes the one niche in which fighter was even playable).

> Clerics don't have Turn undead (they have channel energy instead) any more so I don't think DMM even works. I personally think Divine Favour is worse but ymmv.
> Trip and Grapple are not strength checks any more. They are a special kind of attack, the fighter is probably slightly better at tripping. But you don't really care since trip was nerfed greatly.

So... in other words, they nerfed the only thing a fighter could do to contribute to combat at all... you're not selling fighter or paladin as being worth using next to cleric. (I love how Paizo nerfs the only things that fighters did which kept them even mildly useful at low levels, even ignoring high levels).
I'm pretty sure you're wrong anyway, since CMB and CMD checks *are* strength checks. If you think giving the exact same check a different name stops it from being a strength check, that's the worst rules sophistry I can think of. A str-check is any non-attack roll which adds strength to a d20, by definition.
Also, channel energy is turn undead, more or less explicitly. Changing the name doesn't make it a different mechanic.

> > A cleric with masterwork mithril full plate is down to an ACP of -2 (-6, +3 for mithril, +1 for masterwork).

> Actually I'm pretty sure the ACP is -3, since mithral already includes MW.

Wrong. By paizo's own RAW, only the cost of masterwork is incorporated into the price of mithril, not the stats. And since it specifically calls out that all mithril items are masterwork, but only the cost of masterworking is included in the described abilities, the benefits of masterworking apply.
Last edited by squirrelloid on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:10 am

Did anyone use mithril full plate? I know nerfing Mithril Breastplates kicked rogues in the balls, but I am not aware of anyone using mithril full plate at all.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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K
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Post by K » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:13 am

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:Did anyone use mithril full plate? I know nerfing Mithril Breastplates kicked rogues in the balls, but I am not aware of anyone using mithril full plate at all.

Bards. There was a feat to increase your ability to ignore ASF to Medium Armor, so Mithril full Plate was perfect for that.
Also, any fighting guy who didn't want the movement penalty for Heavy Armor.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:17 am

Also, Mithril Fullplate was the best AC you could get. So at the high end all the Clerics and shit wear Mithril Fullplate. It's like regular Fullplate, but with a higher Dex maximum, and therefore the best armor.
That and the Mithril bonus was apparently cumulative with the Celestial modifier. So Celestial Mithril Fullplate was the absolute best armor.
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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:32 am

> ishy wrote:Doesn't stack with other spells anymore now though, like quickened divine favour. Nor do boots of speed do anything for you now. While old divine power gave you extra attacks that did stack.

it exactly gave you ONE extra attack at best, because that's the difference between high and medium bab. other than that, you're right that there may be a bit less stacking with the change, since no other spell or item gives you bab. individually the spell became better, though.
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ishy
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Post by ishy » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:52 pm

> squirrelloid wrote:I'm pretty sure you're wrong anyway, since CMB and CMD checks *are* strength checks. If you think giving the exact same check a different name stops it from being a strength check, that's the worst rules sophistry I can think of. A str-check is any non-attack roll which adds strength to a d20, by definition.

A CMB check is an attack roll.

> Wrong. By paizo's own RAW, only the cost of masterwork is incorporated into the price of mithril, not the stats. And since it specifically calls out that all mithril items are masterwork, but only the cost of masterworking is included in the described abilities, the benefits of masterworking apply.

Since all mithral armours are MW and the description says mithral armours ACP are reduced by 3, I read that as already including the MW bonus. Magical mithral items like say mithral full plate of speed have an ACP of 3;supporting this view.
You might see it & rule it differently. And yes pathfinder rules are a complete mess written by incompetents.
Last edited by ishy on Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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squirrelloid
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Post by squirrelloid » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:06 pm

> ishy wrote:

> > squirrelloid wrote:I'm pretty sure you're wrong anyway, since CMB and CMD checks *are* strength checks. If you think giving the exact same check a different name stops it from being a strength check, that's the worst rules sophistry I can think of. A str-check is any non-attack roll which adds strength to a d20, by definition.

> A CMB check is an attack roll.

Okay, whatever. Divine power applies to attack rolls, so it now applies to CMB checks when it didn't before.

> > Wrong. By paizo's own RAW, only the cost of masterwork is incorporated into the price of mithril, not the stats. And since it specifically calls out that all mithril items are masterwork, but only the cost of masterworking is included in the described abilities, the benefits of masterworking apply.

> Since all mithral armours are MW and the description says mithral armours ACP are reduced by 3, I read that as already including the MW bonus. Magical mithral items like say mithral full plate of speed have an ACP of 3;supporting this view.
> You might see it & rule it differently. And yes pathfinder rules are a complete mess written by incompetents.

And I'd argue the mithril armors under magic items are wrong because of the general text for mithril, of which they're supposed to be an instance, says otherwise. Why would it specifically call out the cost as including masterwork's cost, but not tell you the modifiers for being masterwork were otherwise included? (Also, other special materials are also specifically masterwork too - do those not get the masterwork bonuses at all? Because by the same standard, they list no modifiers to ACP, and if you think MW bonuses are included then they don't get any.)
Last edited by squirrelloid on Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:53 am

Someone has borked their tags. Please fix them or commit sudoku to atone.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:45 am

Squirrelloid, please fix your tags. And then commit seppuku to reclaim your honor.
On topic: Is there anyway for a 1st level character to pick up Identify as a spell like (ECL is... well, I previously played a Worm that Walks Wiz1 as a "starting character).
Last edited by Prak on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:28 am

Yes, but you do have to set a level on fire: Dragonfire Adepts gain a Least Invocation at level 1 along with their 1d6 breath weapon.
One of the Least DFA Invocations does Detect Magic, but can be ended with a Full Round Action to create an Identify effect. So it's at will, no components, and takes two actions to do. Awesome. Shame about the class level.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Starmaker
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Post by Starmaker » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:08 am

Squirrelloid: there's an extra closing quote tag after "And yes pathfinder rules are a complete mess written by incompetents." Please edit the post to remove it, it's breaking the page layout.
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ishy
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Post by ishy » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:57 am

> Prak_Anima wrote:On topic: Is there anyway for a 1st level character to pick up Identify as a spell like (ECL is... well, I previously played a Worm that Walks Wiz1 as a "starting character).

In the rules compendium, it says you can also use (spellcraft & detect magic) or knowledge arcana to identify items. DC is 25 + mods though. I'm sure these rules were added in some splat like say complete arcana or whatever.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:15 pm

I knew about Dragonfire Adept, and would dip it, but we only get one level to start with, and I'd rather go Warmage and have a bit more options, thank you anyway, Koumei.
Ishy: I'll look into that.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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squirrelloid
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Post by squirrelloid » Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:37 pm

> Starmaker wrote:Squirrelloid: there's an extra closing quote tag after "And yes pathfinder rules are a complete mess written by incompetents." Please edit the post to remove it, it's breaking the page layout.

I can't find it. Only shows one ending quote tag for me there, and there does need to be one.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:54 pm

Annoying question: Has there been any decent 3e/Pathfinder dungeon crawls written for low levels? I'm talking a HUGE dungeon crawl (but smaller than The World's Largest Dungeon).
I got the idea of running a campaign based loosely on the story of Lord Robilar and the Tomb of Horrors, except with the PCs as the expendable followers (with the assumption they'll say "fuck this guy" and stab him in the face at some point).
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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