# The Gaming Den

Welcome to the Gaming Den.

Skip to content

## Blades in the Dark

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply

- Print view

243 posts

- Page 3 of 10
  - Jump to page:
- Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- …
- 10
- Next

silva
  Duke
  Posts: 2097
  Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:11 am

###

- Quote

Post by silva » Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:38 pm

Nice art, indeed. As I said, steampunk in the next wave.
@Kaelik: I just know of Bloodborne very superficially. So yeah, forget what I said there. Aside from the aesthetics, Blades may have nothing to do with it.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
Top

Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Kaelik » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:00 pm

> silva wrote:Nice art, indeed. As I said, steampunk in the next wave.
> @Kaelik: I just know of Bloodborne very superficially. So yeah, forget what I said there. Aside from the aesthetics, Blades may have nothing to do with it.

It also has nothing to do with the aesthetic. You idiot.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Top

silva
  Duke
  Posts: 2097
  Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:11 am

###

- Quote

Post by silva » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:14 pm

Bloodborne setting of Yarhnam is a industrial-fantasy city, full with industrial-tech guns mixed with supernatural elements.
If you don't find any similarity between it and Blades, well, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Last edited by silva on Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top

Longes
  Prince
  Posts: 2867
  Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Longes » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:14 pm

> erik wrote:An aside- I like the art for this one that I found in the comments section of the Dishonored ripoff kickstarter.
> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/it ... bletop-rpg

I like the art and the variety of races, but the fact that you only get the digital book if you pledge 40$ is a fucking show stopper.
Top

Longes
  Prince
  Posts: 2867
  Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Longes » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:19 pm

> silva wrote:Bloodborne setting of Yarhnam is a industrial-fantasy city, full with industrial-tech weapons and guns, mixed with supernatural elements as monsters.
> If you don't find any similarity between it and Blades, well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Bloodborne:
-Gothic england style
-Blood-powered magic
-Werewolves
-Firearms in the style of early gunpowder weapons
-No electrical special effects
Blades in the Dark:
-Dishonored aesthetics
-Not!Whale-powered technology
-Ghost magic
-Matchlock pistols
-Teslapunk aesthetics in technology
Top

silva
  Duke
  Posts: 2097
  Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:11 am

###

- Quote

Post by silva » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:28 pm

Longes, the aesthetics are the same. The differences are in the details. If you see a YouTube trailer of Thief, Dishonored and Bloodborne, the imagery is so similar one could thing they share the same world. (that is, until the details specific to each game are revealed).
Well, at least that's what I meant to say. YMMV and all that.
Edit: oh, and add The Order 1886 to the group.
Last edited by silva on Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top

angelfromanotherpin
  Overlord
  Posts: 9691
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by angelfromanotherpin » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:49 pm

I like the art, too, but I would like to point out how un-steampunk it is.
This is a WoW zone.
This is a JRPG town.
This is as close as it gets. It has smoky skies over a grimy cityscape and an airborne ship. But notice that the smoky skies seem to come from a row of volcanoes and not industrial stacks. Notice that the prominent devices on the air-ship are a clearly modern-aesthetic reactor with electrical indicator lights, and ray-cannon. I don't see any coal-furnaces or steam-boilers. Maybe that thing at the bottom is a steam-vent? Maybe.
One of the race-portraits. Cool, but seriously, does anything about this say steampunk to you? They have cyber-necks and fight with badly-maintained kitchenware.
The human race-portrait. The only thing that looks steampunk is his gun. She has goggles which are usually a steampunk signature, but the design of those things is more like alienware because it has more rims than she has eyes. What's with the heavily-amored hands but unarmored torsos?
That hat is amazing and that awesome handgun must fire shotgun shells, but this looks like 'fantasy horror with a pinch of Western,' not steampunk.
wtf, that's Gigeresque sci-fi.
He looks like a postapocalyptic bandit. She looks like a necromancer/fetish-nun.
I don't even. It's like something out of Book of the New Sun.
Drow meets Mad Max.
Top

silva
  Duke
  Posts: 2097
  Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:11 am

###

- Quote

Post by silva » Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:55 pm

Agree with Angel. Shattered leans too much to the fantasy side to be called Steampunk. Much more than the other games cited.
But then I think the "Steampunk" label is too specific to describe all those. I think "Industrial Fantasy" is better, as it is more encompassing.
Top

erik
  King
  Posts: 5847
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by erik » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:10 pm

> angelfromanotherpin wrote:I like the art, too, but I would like to point out how un-steampunk it is.

100% agree. You'd have to be silvalevelclueless to call it steampunk. The art is totally bonkers in that the themes don't go together, but they do succeed in being pretty.
If it were a coffeetable book I'd be tempted to get it just for the pictures of random settings that have nothing to do with one another. $60 for it as an RPG tho... naaaaah. They'd need more gravitas for me to bite.
Top

TheFlatline
  Prince
  Posts: 2606
  Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:43 pm

###

- Quote

Post by TheFlatline » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:30 pm

> angelfromanotherpin wrote:So, what do we think will happen if the BitD people get a C&D letter? Negotiate to pay royalties? Go through their text and rub the serial numbers off? Other?

They could change all the names and alter enough stuff to avoid IP infringement I'm sure. That they didn't and then raised 200 grand is a pretty strong indication of how lazy the dev is. I mean, it'd take maybe a day or two to sand the numbers off of a dishonored setting. They didn't though, for reasons I can only think of as lazy as fuck. Which bodes terribly for rules.
Top

angelfromanotherpin
  Overlord
  Posts: 9691
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by angelfromanotherpin » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:39 pm

Mm, but the 'starter closed a couple of days ago. If the print files were more-or-less ready, they could be sent to the printer before the C&D letter arrives, and then things get nastier. Reskinning the master files is annoying but relatively cheap, eating an entire print run is something else.
Top

Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Kaelik » Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:40 pm

> silva wrote:Bloodborne setting of Yarhnam is a industrial-fantasy city, full with industrial-tech guns mixed with supernatural elements.
> If you don't find any similarity between it and Blades, well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Silva, you know how apocalpyse world is a sugar fairy wonderland with magical ponies who fly around creating rainbows?
Bloodborne is exactly as industrial as that.
For fucks sake, you have literally no fucking clue what bloodborne is, and every word out of your shitty shit mouth proves it more. You even agreed that you have no fucking clue what bloodborne is, so why are you now claiming to know things about bloodborne, when you admitted you have no fucking idea?
Everything you say is wrong, shut the fuck up about this fucking game that you know nothing about you shittstain. Just fucking stop calling bloodborne industrial when you have no fucking clue what it is. Just admit that one name you put in your list that you admit you know nothing about, is just fucking wrong, and is completely fucking unrelated, because it has absolutely nothing to do with industrial anything, or industrail tech guns. It has fucking lanterns as the most advanced technology in the game, or alternatively pulleys, whichever you think is more advanced.
The guns are fucking magic powered, and they are exactly the same as guns that existed in the 1600s, except for the magic part, and also being shorter ranged.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Top

silva
  Duke
  Posts: 2097
  Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:11 am

###

- Quote

Post by silva » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:04 pm

Kaelik,

> Bloodborne Wiki wrote: The Workshop and the Heretics
> In time, a man named Gherman would rise to the task of taking care of the Beast problem. Redesigning his clothes to provide defense against their claws, Gherman also took to creating the Burial Blade, a unique weapon that was made out of Starlite, a metal made from the heavens. He also created the Mercy Blades from the same material, which would later be used by Eileen. Gherman’s work was so admired that his methods and trick weapons would become the basis for all hunter technology in the future. While it doesn’t say specifically, there is a heavy implication that Gherman was hired by the Church of Healing to work in the Workshop, due to his familiarity with it and its location beneath the Healing Church’s cathedral.
> Gherman worked in the Workshop presumably until his death. He took many apprentices, who all did his duty in his honor, and may well have died long ago. The bone in the workshop graveyard was one of such apprentices, who had mastered the art of Quickening, allowing his stamina to recover faster and his rolls to function better.
> There were others, however. Notably, the Powder Kegs were a group of hunters that tried to make explosive weapons, to varying degrees of success (the Stake Driver, the Rifle Spear, and the Cannon are all such devices). However, due to differences in designs, they were banned from the Workshop, becoming known as Workshop Heretics.

So, the advanced weapons and outfits the Hunters use originated from an inventor named Gherman, which would go on to help establish the city Workshop. No matter if its coal, blood, ghost or tesla-fueled, its all part of an invention, which is totally part of the industral-fantasy trope.
Also, put Arcanum: of Steamworks and Magika Obscura to the fold. Man, I loved that game.
Last edited by silva on Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Top

Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Kaelik » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:41 pm

> silva wrote:Kaelik,

> > Bloodborne Wiki wrote: The Workshop and the Heretics
> > In time, a man named Gherman would rise to the task of taking care of the Beast problem. Redesigning his clothes to provide defense against their claws, Gherman also took to creating the Burial Blade, a unique weapon that was made out of Starlite, a metal made from the heavens. He also created the Mercy Blades from the same material, which would later be used by Eileen. Gherman’s work was so admired that his methods and trick weapons would become the basis for all hunter technology in the future. While it doesn’t say specifically, there is a heavy implication that Gherman was hired by the Church of Healing to work in the Workshop, due to his familiarity with it and its location beneath the Healing Church’s cathedral.
> > Gherman worked in the Workshop presumably until his death. He took many apprentices, who all did his duty in his honor, and may well have died long ago. The bone in the workshop graveyard was one of such apprentices, who had mastered the art of Quickening, allowing his stamina to recover faster and his rolls to function better.
> > There were others, however. Notably, the Powder Kegs were a group of hunters that tried to make explosive weapons, to varying degrees of success (the Stake Driver, the Rifle Spear, and the Cannon are all such devices). However, due to differences in designs, they were banned from the Workshop, becoming known as Workshop Heretics.

> So, the advanced weapons and outfits the Hunters use originated from an inventor named Gherman, which would go on to help establish the city Workshop. No matter if its coal, blood, ghost or tesla-fueled, its all part of an invention, which is totally part of the industral-fantasy trope.

Spoiler alert, when you have literally no idea what you are talking about, and you google things to try to support your point, you will find the things that don't suppoert your point.
The "inventions" are magic robes, and weapons made of magic steel. Is D&D industrial because Cold Iron exists? Because Silver penetrates Werewolf DR?
He made a scythe and some blades out of meteor, that isn't fucking industrial, that is classic 600s mythology.
If you knew even the littlest thing about the game you would see that Gherman's robes are fucking robes, not industrial technology, the blades of mercy are fucking daggers, and the burial blade is a scythe. The "Workshop" is a fucking shack with two different kinds of altars that both together provide the exact same functionality as a fucking Blacksmith does in the Dark Souls game, because it is basically just a fucking blacksmith shop.
For fucks sake, you admitted that you have no fucking clue what bloodborne even is, why are you so fucking committed to dying on the hill of telling people who actually do know what bloodborne is that it is "industrial."
Is this a language barrier? Is the Portuguese word for "industrial" a synonym for "absolutely not industrial in any way shape or form, and feature advanced technology invtented in real life by people in a time period that we currently call Before Comman Era"?

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Top

Leress
  Prince
  Posts: 2767
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Leress » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Bloodborne seems closer to this type of fiction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslamp_fantasy
I looked up industrial fantasy and found no real set definition for it.
Also Silva, pointing out there was an inventor doesn't really mean anything since inventors existed in all time periods.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

]

> The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.

Top

silva
  Duke
  Posts: 2097
  Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:11 am

###

- Quote

Post by silva » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:58 pm

Leress has a point. And yeah, Gaslamp Fantasy fits better.
Kaelik: I stand firmly on the ground that Bloodborne aesthetics are pretty similar to Thief, Dishonored, The Order 1886, etc. No matter what you say. So give up and lets agree to disagree.
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
Top

Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Kaelik » Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:59 pm

> Leress wrote:Bloodborne seems closer to this type of fiction.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslamp_fantasy
> I looked up industrial fantasy and found no real set definition for it.
> Also Silva, pointing out there was an inventor doesn't really mean anything since inventors existed in all time periods.

It looks like thematically that maybe the case, but it sounds like traditional Gaslight is far more technologically advanced than Bloodborne.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Top

Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Kaelik » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:07 pm

> silva wrote:Leress has a point. And yeah, Gaslamp Fantasy fits better.

Oh god, are you still commenting on the genre of a thing you know nothing about?

> silva wrote:Kaelik: I stand firmly on the ground that Bloodborne aesthetics are pretty similar to Thief, Dishonored, The Order 1886, etc. No matter what you say. So give up and lets agree to disagree.

You are a fucking idiot.
You are standing firmly on the grounds of your inability to see.
Here is One:
Here is the other:
Are you really telling me you can't see the difference?
EDIT: apparently resizing is disabled, so I'm sorry, I'm going to have to leave the absurdly giant image.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Top

silva
  Duke
  Posts: 2097
  Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:11 am

###

- Quote

Post by silva » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:28 pm

Yep, I'm telling you exactly that.
Post some pics of Thief and the Order 1886 too and they will all look alike - Victorian/Edwardian/industrial Revolution-era architecture, clothes, technology, etc. in a dark/gothic atmosphere.
The details can be gaspunk or steampunk or teslapunk or bloodpunk or ghostpunk or whateverpunk. In the end its just early/late industrial revolution with supernatural elements thrown in.
Last edited by silva on Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Top

Leress
  Prince
  Posts: 2767
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Leress » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:47 pm

> silva wrote:
> The details can be gaspunk or steampunk or teslapunk or bloodpunk or ghostpunk or whateverpunk. In the end its just early/late industrial revolution with supernatural elements thrown in.

Except like when they don't have supernatural elements, which is half the time. There reason they are different genres is because of the small details.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

]

> The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.

Top

silva
  Duke
  Posts: 2097
  Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:11 am

###

- Quote

Post by silva » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:03 pm

Leress, I agree that the presence of supernatural elements is important. Bit all of the cited games do have supernatural elements:
- Bloodborne: Werewolves, blood-curses and magic
- Blades in the Dark: Ghosts, Demons, Spectrology
- Dishonored: the Outsider-based magic
- Thief: Ghouls, monsters, curses, magic.
- Arcanum of Steamworks & Magic Obscura: Fantasy races and magic.
I think the only one that's devoid of supernatural element is the Order 1886, but I could be wrong about it. *EDIT* The Order also has supernatural elements in the form of monsters and creatures (and the fact the protagonists are King Arthur knights reincarnated).
So that's it. ALL of them have supernatural elements. ALL have victorian/industrial revolution aesthetics. And ALL have a dark/gothic atmosphere. (ok, the exception here seems to be Arcanum, which is more fantasy-inclined and thus more "colorful" overall). So telling all of them share the same aesthetics is more than fair to me.
Last edited by silva on Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Top

Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Kaelik » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:20 pm

> silva wrote:they will all look alike - Victorian/Edwardian/industrial Revolution-era architecture, clothes, technology, etc. in a dark/gothic atmosphere.

Your inability to tell the difference between industrial revolution era and gothic cathedrals is a personal failing, and the only appropriate response is to never ever speak of aesthetics ever for any reason to anyone, because you literally have no idea what those are. I would rather talk about color pallets with a blind man.

> silva wrote:The details can be gaspunk or steampunk or teslapunk or bloodpunk or ghostpunk or whateverpunk. In the end its just early/late industrial revolution with supernatural elements thrown in.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
There is no such thing as bloodpunk. Bloodborne has zero fucking punk elements at all in any way. Steampunk and teslapunk mean specific things in which the steam and tesla refer to energy sources, and blood is not a fucking energy source in bloodborne. Wholly shit, your continual obsession in trying to turn bloodborne into something it isn't in your head is fucking annoying.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Top

Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Kaelik » Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:22 pm

> silva wrote:So that's it. ALL of them have supernatural elements. ALL have victorian/industrial revolution aesthetics. And ALL have a dark/gothic atmosphere. (ok, the exception here seems to be Arcanum, which is more fantasy-inclined and thus more "colorful" overall). So telling all of them share the same aesthetics is more than fair to me.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Top

silva
  Duke
  Posts: 2097
  Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:11 am

###

- Quote

Post by silva » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:23 am

Did anyone see if only the players roll dice &#127922; ?
The traditional playstyle is, above all else, the style of playing all games the same way, supported by the ambiguity and lack of procedure in the traditional game text. - Eero Tuovinen
Top

RelentlessImp
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 701
  Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:03 am

###

- Quote

Post by RelentlessImp » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:14 am

silva, please just admit you're wrong and proceed to pull your head out of your ass. It may be too late for you to ever be a contributing or even intelligent member of this forum but at the very least you won't continue looking like a complete idiot.'
Here's some education for you - the -punk appellation refers to a movement borne in the mid-70s, the punk subculture. At its core, -punk refers to a state of "Us vs Them", or "The Little Guy vs The Big Guy", as can be seen in various -punk settings - it's a core theme of cyberpunk, such as Shadowrun, for instance.
Other divisions of the -punk "genre", such as it is, explore other aspects of the movement. For example, steampunk is less anti-authoritarian and more about doing it for yourself and doing it yourself - the most popular steampunk expression is a Victorian-era lady being very un-Victorian, for instance.
Overall, when you refer to "-punk", I think you need to review exactly what the suffix means when applied to a genre. In most settings, it refers to the major technology of the setting - such as cyberpunk (cybernetics and futurism), steampunk (Jules Verne-style Victorian technology), dieselpunk (Legend of Korra is the only example that comes to mind off the top of my head) - these things all have aspects of the punk subculture involved in them, some more and less realized.
Do your research and stop looking like a tool.
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top
Post Reply

- Print view

Display:
Sort by:
Direction:

243 posts

- Page 3 of 10
  - Jump to page:
- Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- …
- 10
- Next

Return to “In My Humble Opinion...”

Jump to

- Main
- ↳ About the Gaming Den
- ↳ In My Humble Opinion...
- ↳ I Gave the Mouse a Cookie...
- ↳ In The Trenches
- ↳ It's My Own Invention...
- ↳ MPSIMS