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## What is Manipulation? [Honest request for advice]

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Orion
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### What is Manipulation? [Honest request for advice]

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Post by Orion » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:02 pm

So I've been aware for a while now that I'm not on the same page as the rest of the world regarding what is manipulative behavior and why it is bad. In the past year or two, in addition to one or two instances of people actually having problems with my behavior, I've had several instances of alienating acquaintances just by talking about how I view the issues. That's a problem for me, because I genuinely don't comprehend where other people are coming from, due to several quirks of my history and neurology. But I'm not just going to chalk my thinking up to disorder and try to imitate the normals, because while I have occasionally lost friends or caused problems, I'm generally quite popular wherever I go, at least in the sense that I can quickly attract a circle, and my dating life has generally been good.
Anyway the first thing to know about me is that I came late to the "interpersonal relationships" party. Until the age of 12 or so, I was pretty much okay with being left alone indefinitely to read books. My friends were all gamers, and I really wasn't interested in them beyond their value as opponents. Plus, because I was homeschooled and isolated in suburbia, I only saw people when my mother would drive me there, and so I just passively let her set my social calendar for me.
The real turning point in my thinking about relationships came later, when I was suicidal. I realized that I needed something to give my life meaning, and I settled on a kind of "random acts of kindness" ethos, where I used all my tricks--jokes, flirtation, strength for carrying things, knowledge to help with homework--to brighten the days of the kids around me in a desperate attempt to justify my existence. Where this gets interesting is that I was born with essentially no stage-fright or self-awareness. I had been involved as a child in dance and RPG, and as a teen I was growing into theater and teaching. So I came to think of myself as "on-stage" 100%, and I sculpted my persona like a character. I'm substantially healthier now than I was then, but it's still shaped my thinking about these issues.
So let's look at something I posted in the other thread, my "rules of game" (expanded here)
--Make a point of welcoming new girls
--If a girl is being talked over, move next to her and ask to continue
--If a girl leaves the main group to get a drink from the vending machine, or a book from her car, offer to tag along
--wear clothes that invite questions
--tell stories that allude to other stories (I like talking about "the third time I was on local news")
--never pass up a chance to practice dance or martial arts with a girl, or any other occasion for physical contact
As Neeek said, several of these--welcoming strangers, making sure no one is ignored--are just "decent behavior" that "any decent person" would do. But can they be manipulative? I think there are two extreme cases. On the one hand, if you're acting out of pure empathy and charity, obviously not. On the other, if you're "just trying to get into someone's pants," obviously yes. As a consequentialist, I'd say the problem when you're acting solely in hopes of getting laid is that you will stop doing so as soon as you realize it's not going to happen, thus hurting feeligns and destroying relationships they may have counted on.
But I'm not either of those people. I decided to be friendly and charitable because I thought it would be fun and rewarding, and toward women especially because I thought that it would be the best way to get the sexual attention I want. I'm not compelled by my nature to do good or to empathize with anyone--I know that I'm capable of remorseless cruelty when I choose it. At the same time, I'm not devoting time to any particular person because I want something specific from them, and I'm not going to abandon them because I don't get it. I do it because it's part of my life strategy and my consciously-chosen values.
So maybe flaws in my character just make everything I do inherently manipulative. I don't even know how to make decisions other than by thinking about how I want other people to react. And maybe I could learn to live differently. But for now, my conclusion is that manipulative vs. authentic is not a useful way to analyze behavior.
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Post by PoliteNewb » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:12 pm

Maybe I missed it, but...where's the question? What do you want advice on?
From the look of this...

> Orion wrote: But I'm not just going to chalk my thinking up to disorder and try to imitate the normals...

> Orion wrote: I don't even know how to make decisions other than by thinking about how I want other people to react. And maybe I could learn to live differently. But for now, my conclusion is that manipulative vs. authentic is not a useful way to analyze behavior.

...you don't appear interested in changing your behavior. So...gratz on being happy with yourself?
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:28 pm

The key phrases on "not just" and "for now." The point of this post is that I have been told many times that there is something wrong with the way I approach social interactions. However, because it seems to be working for me, and because I have some serious perceptual handicaps (I literally don't know how I feel, much of the time) I can't currently act on that. I am hoping that someone will be able to explain what I'm doing wrong in a way that makes sense to me.
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Post by sabs » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:41 pm

THat sounds vaguelly autistic, or sociopathic. Depending on where in the spectrum you fall. That being said. It's what you do and how you act that is most important. None of the things you describe are all that manipulative, other than being a nice person.
If being a nice person is manipulative, then you know. what ever.
Where things fall into manipulation is telling someone you just lost your dog, to get sympathy. Lying, or using negative comments to manipulate someone into doing what you want them to.
Okay, so you don't empathize with people, so you're teaching yourself how to pretend, because you like the outcome from that. That's reallyu not that bad, and it's better than the opposite, where you just do what you want, screw other people.
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Post by Quantumboost » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:18 am

sabs: Sociopathy isn't part of the autism spectrum. Autistics don't recognize (or express) emotions as readily as normal people do without training (or verbal cues), but their reflective-emotion response is at least as strong as is normal for humans once those emotions are recognized. Sociopathy as I understand it, and I probably don't, is the absence of that response. If you get emotionally trainwrecked, an untrained ass burger won't notice at first but will feel horrible when it's pointed out, while a sociopath might very well know the whole time but not feel anything.
Really, there's not much connecting the two beyond "their emotional responses are kinda weird" and "social disorder".
Orion: As far as I can tell without more specific examples, it sounds like the difference between being manipulative and being not manipulative really is the whole "EMOTION GOOD, REASONING BAD" kick some people get off on. Also I hate when people do that. Especially since being hardwired to TORTURE AND MURDER doesn't make it okay. I'm looking at you, delicious kittens.
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Post by Kaelik » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:29 am

> Quantumboost wrote:Orion: As far as I can tell without more specific examples, it sounds like the difference between being manipulative and being not manipulative really is the whole "EMOTION GOOD, REASONING BAD" kick some people get off on. Also I hate when people do that. Especially since being hardwired to TORTURE AND MURDER doesn't make it okay. I'm looking at you, delicious kittens.

As someone hardwired to torture and murder, I am 100% behind this explanation of opposition to manipulation. Everything I do is manipulation, and everything that other people to prevent me from murdering them is manipulation.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:48 am

Just don't talk about your actions in a way that casts them as manipulative. Nobody wants that degree of candor. People are all manipulative, but pretty much everyone but you has the good sense to be self-deluded about it.
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Post by Maxus » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:50 am

"Emotion Good, Reasoning Bad?" I'd like a more detailed explanation of that one, but I think I know what you mean.
Anyway, Orion, in your particular case. If you're doing it for malicious or selfish ends? Well, that goes under "manipulation" and it's a bad thing.
If you're doing it to help everyone get along or get good things to happen, that goes under the "white lies" or some such category. It's still using the same ideas/principles, but because it's towards a good thing, it's all of a sudden all right. (Normal people can be very inconsistent on things like that.)
That aside, yeah. People get weirded out by non-normal. I'm ADHD and Asperger's Syndrome (officially diagnosed since I was twelve, since you ask). I had to explain to someone how I was able to unravel a dispute between a friend's sister--hell, let's call her Allie--and Allie's boyfriend. Sequence of events went like this:
(Spoiler'd for being long and probably not interesting to everybody. If you unspoil it and read it, you forfeit your rights to complain about it being boring or something).
-Allie comes home, finds Boyfriend watching porn.
-She objects that he was watching porn WITHOUT her.
-Turns out they watch it together fairly often. But all of a sudden, him watching it without her made her feel 'hurt...and inadequate'.
-Friend took Allie's side at first. I mean, they're sisters. Of course. That's reasonable.
-I was the one who asked Boyfriend what was happening--A guy I'd met, like, three times.
-Turns out he had figured out Allie's tastes in porn from comments she'd made and a few other cues and was doing some research to find something the equivalent of a nuke to get her as a present.
-Also turns out, Allie feels she isn't pretty. So all this is in her head. I mean, Boyfriend is freaking LIVING with her. I'd say he finds her acceptable. But she felt that him watching porn without her meant she wasn't enough.
-So, situation resolved, though Allie feels like a moron (as well she should, really). Friend thanks me for patiently and objectively sorting it out and asks how I did it.
Then she gets weirded out by the explanation--For whatever reason, my emotions don't shut my brain down. It's hard to have a misunderstanding because I don't go haring off when I get angry. I also don't act on things as soon as I feel them--after all, it might be the feeling of someone selfish, or spiteful.
That sort of self-control and the fact that I could be angry but still make the effort to understand what's going on, was totally alien to her. She tried to say she was sorry for me "because of all the awesome moments and excitement" I don't get, until I pointed out that I have plenty of fun and excitement but don't get in dumb arguments because feelings shut my brain down.
The best term I heard for 'em was "neurotypical". And NT's find someone who doesn't think or do things like they do, extremely unsettling.
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Post by Shiritai » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:15 am

> Maxus wrote:The best term I heard for 'em was "neurotypical". And NT's find someone who doesn't think or do things like they do, extremely unsettling.

Eh, most of them may, sure, but it's hardly all. I've found psych majors especially to be fairly chill about that. Then again, it seems a lot of them are hardly NT themselves.
But on topic, "manipulation" is an amoral action in my book. It all depends on how you use it. Because really, if you're aware of how you present yourself and how you handle situations, then isn't changing that, or even deciding to not change that, a form of "manipulation"? If you know how you act, and how people are likely to react, then it's impossible to avoid manipulating people. But as long as you're not actively trying to mess someone up I doubt you're doing any harm.
So yeah, I agree.
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Post by sabs » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:17 am

My son is autistic. I well know that Sociopathy isn't on the spectrum. But ORion's description of himself wasn't exactly long and detailed.
He says he isn't wired the same as others when it comes to emotions.
Both Autistics and Sociopaths are also not wired the same as others, though in completely different ways from each other. With the level of detail he gave us, he could be either one, or heck even neither.
Hence why i used the word 'or' implying that they were mutually exclusive.
Orion specifically says people think he handles social interactions weirdly. One of the traits that will get you on the Autism spectrum is handling social interactions weirdly.
His logical approach to social interactions is very similar to what we're teaching my son. Because he doesn't understand social interactions we take for granted, so he has to learn cause/effect/reaction chains so he knows that when most people say X or do X it means y and he should respond with Z.
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Post by Orion » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:52 am

Yeah, I read descriptions of both socoipathy and autism and I recognize pieces of myself. I don't think I actually have either condition though. I was actually tested for autism, but we never got the results because the psychologist disappeared. On self-diagnose quizzes, I always score well above average but well below diagnosed aspergers' patients. As for sociopathy, while I behave in a lot of ways like a sociopath, I wasn't born that way. I know for a fact that I am capable of feeling guilt because guilt is the weapon my parents sued to make me suicidal. One day I just chose not to feel guilt anymore, and now I usually don't.
And yeah, like Maxus, I acquired a reputation as a good advisor from a young age by doing literally nothing but asking "is [a, d, c] a complete list of your options? What would happen if you do a? Would you be happy with that?"
Catharz' advice is probably the most relevant. What I've been learning in the last year or two is not to describe myself in a negative light. Which I find annoying. I used to make a point of describing myself cynically. I feel that everyone has a tendency to be corrupted by whatever scraps of power they have, and being your own worst critic is the answer. So I call it what it is what I am manipulating, or when I'm arrogant, or when I'm lazy. I used to have a circle of friends who understood the self-deprecation, but many people don't get it. It's a shame, because radical honesty is one of my most powerful tools.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:41 am

Self-deprecation is casting yourself in a positive light by showing humility, not casting yourself in a negative light by showing honesty.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:26 am

Well, I think it is possible, if a little paradoxical, to be honest and self-deprecating. Self-deprecation is highlighting or exaggerating your flaws in order to create the impression of humility. Honesty is saying things that are true. If you emphasize negative qualities you really do possess without contrasting them with positive ones, you are being both self-deprecating and honest.
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Post by Neeeek » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:24 am

Hmm.
I've got a decent background in ethics and I think something Kant came up with might help with your issue here:
Treat everyone as an end, not a means.
What that means is that you should always treat other people as if their well-being is your goal, and not as a means to get something for yourself to their detriment.
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Post by Maj » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:51 am

The problem with using 'manipulation' is that it conjures up synonyms like artifice, contrivance, gimmick, machination, ploy, ruse, scheme, subterfuge, trickery, chicanery, cunning, deceit, deception, fraud, and wile. Being manipulated means that people generally feel like you don't care about them, you just want something from them.
By your own admission, this isn't the case.

> Orion wrote:I decided to be friendly and charitable because I thought it would be fun and rewarding, and toward women especially because I thought that it would be the best way to get the sexual attention I want... At the same time, I'm not devoting time to any particular person because I want something specific from them, and I'm not going to abandon them because I don't get it. I do it because it's part of my life strategy and my consciously-chosen values.

Further, I posit that even if you believe that everything you do is essentially to manipulate people into liking you, then it makes perfect sense to drop the word 'manipulating' from your vocabulary as it would further your goal of manipulating others successfully.
In short, what Catharz said: Find a new word.
Also, personally, I don't feel self-deprecation necessarily carries with it a sense of false humility. There are plenty of people who disparage themselves honestly and are genuinely humble about it.
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Post by Neeeek » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:06 am

> Maj wrote: Also, personally, I don't feel self-deprecation necessarily carries with it a sense of false humility. There are plenty of people who disparage themselves honestly and are genuinely humble about it.

There are also a lot of people whose own worst critic is themselves. Being honestly self-depreciating is often more a function of a false self-perception than anything else.
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Post by Orion » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:40 am

> Maj wrote:The problem with using 'manipulation' is that it conjures up synonyms like artifice, contrivance, gimmick, machination, ploy, ruse, scheme, subterfuge, trickery, chicanery, cunning, deceit, deception, fraud, and wile. Being manipulated means that people generally feel like you don't care about them, you just want something from them.

Well, I genuinely do think that my persona is artificial, gimmicky, and contrived. If have an interesting thought while alone, I'll save for it later and introduce as "you know what I just thought of?" I script out jokes and speeches ahead of time. I strategize ways to mention interesting facts about me without seeming like I'm talking about myself.
I just don't see why "artifice" "cotrivance" or "gimmick" are morally weighted terms.

> By your own admission, this isn't the case.

Well, the behavior I described was an edge case, one I picked because some but not all people would consider it manipulative. I guarantee you, I do and have done things that you and anyone else would call manipulative. Ask me how I get good grades without doing the work, or how I got my girlfriend to leave her church. What I'm unsure about is whether I or anyone else ever does anything that's *not* manipulative. Because if you asked *me* to define it, I would say something like "choosing your actions based on your rational expectation that they will lead other to behave as you desire" which would include basically all interaction.

> Further, I posit that even if you believe that everything you do is essentially to manipulate people into liking you, then it makes perfect sense to drop the word 'manipulating' from your vocabulary as it would further your goal of manipulating others successfully.

Actually, a lot of people go for self-reference and a lot go for tortured souls. While a few people have been put off by my "manipulative" side, I've found that a suprising number of people will like me *even more* after I carefully explain how I am manipulating them into liking me.

> Neeeek wrote:
> Treat everyone as an end, not a means.

I've read some Kant, but I don't remember the context of that line, so forgive me if I'm misinterpreting it stupidly, but I really don't find it helpful. I can interpret it in one of two ways.
A: "Treating someone as an end" means making value judgments about thier internal states. For instance, deciding that you want someone to be happy, and the working toward that, would be treating them as an end rather than a means to something. I have two problems with this.
First, people who only want you to be happy and successful can be extraordinarily manipulative. Think of your parents' unasked for "career guidance" or of anti-smoking PSAs. Both are treating you as ends, both are manipulative in the extreme. Second, that maxim by itself doesn't require you do do good. If I decide that Kaelik really ought to suffer horribly, and then work to make sure that he does, I am treating him as an end rather than a means.
B: "Treat others as ends" is a shorthand for "treat the fulfillment of others' preferences as ends" in which case, I just disagree. If someone wants to be an alcoholic, you don't cater to or facilitate their preferences. I would argue that you are in fact ethically bound to reject their preferences and manipulate them into being the person *you* think they should be. In fact, I'd say that everyone has a universal duty to decide how everyone else should live their lives and then manipulate them into doing so.
Last edited by Orion on Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Vnonymous » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:57 am

I think we see the real heartlessness and cruelty of people saying that game is awful here. Game has a multitude of lessons and a lot of them are devoted to building and maintaining a variety of social relationships, even if you're not particularly good at it. For people like Orion and other autistics/aspergers sufferers(if that is what you are), condemning artificial social interaction and behaviour is essentially dooming them to a life alone.
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Post by Maj » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:47 am

> Orion wrote:I just don't see why "artifice" "cotrivance" or "gimmick" are morally weighted terms.

Because they are things you do to other people.
Personally, I don't consider putting on a social mask to be something you do to other people. I consider it something you do to yourself. While there is a line, I feel it's the same one that differentiates false advertising and advertising to put your product in the best light.

> Orion wrote:I guarantee you, I do and have done things that you and anyone else would call manipulative.

Everyone does. But lumping in things that everyone agrees are manipulative with things that are generally not considered manipulative results in a definition so broad it's meaningless. Hence this discussion.
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Post by violence in the media » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:04 pm

Orion, do you feel like you get "manipulated" by people in your social circles, or do you view yourself as the "mastermind" in them? Do others perceive themselves as being able to "manipulate" you in return?
If not, I think that might be the source of a lot of your issues with people taking offense and breaking off relationships with you. A lot of social interaction involves at least the fiction of reciprocal manipulation and the sense of social equality that conveys. i.e. Sometimes you wind up doing things you don't particularly want to do, but that you feel you need to do out of guilt, obligation, loyalty, etc. If your mystery condition prevents this sort of reciprocity, it's not surprising that some people will ditch you after realizing that you manipulate them, but that they can't effect similar reactions in you. That's a one-sided relationship, despite any "benefit" you may feel you're imparting on the other person.
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:47 pm

> Plus, because I was homeschooled and isolated in suburbia,

There's yer problem.
Find a couple guys bigger and meaner than yourself and have them swipe yer lunch money, rough you up and give you swirilies for a few years and you'll be socialized just like everyone else.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:26 pm

I try to manipulate people. I outright tell them what I'm trying to accomplish, then negotiate what it will take, if its even possible. I prefer a direct sell because that's how I would like others to do. I hate cloak-and-dagger bullshit, because I'm bad at it and I usually get screwed over.
As for being a "mastermind", I've seen too many highly intelligent people fall prey to some truly bone-head cons to think I'm even remotely immune to anything.
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Post by Orion » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:56 pm

VitM: Fascinating. I'm gonna need to think about it, but you're on to something. My entire life I've been surrounded by people cared more about me than I care about them. And come to think of it, that did bother people back when they could tell. Now I'm good enough at my act that people think of my as an extra-caring guy, even though I'm really not.
Vnon: False dichotomy much? Yes, I do think that some of the things people say about this stuff is neurotypical prejudice, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. It's possible to disapprove of game while approving of artifice. That's me.
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Post by PoliteNewb » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:07 pm

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I try to manipulate people. I outright tell them what I'm trying to accomplish, then negotiate what it will take, if its even possible. I prefer a direct sell because that's how I would like others to do. I hate cloak-and-dagger bullshit, because I'm bad at it and I usually get screwed over.

+1, Count. Straightforward, above-board dealing is my preferred method of dealing with people (in all respects, from romantic to business). If I find people have been evasive or dishonest with me, I'm likely to just walk away.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:51 am

> Maj wrote:Also, personally, I don't feel self-deprecation necessarily carries with it a sense of false humility. There are plenty of people who disparage themselves honestly and are genuinely humble about it.

I don't mean that self-deprecation is inherently dishonest; just that honest self-criticism isn't the point.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:As for being a "mastermind", I've seen too many highly intelligent people fall prey to some truly bone-head cons to think I'm even remotely immune to anything.

Ain't that the truth. I can count the number of times I've figured out that I was being conned (before it was too late) on one finger. And that was with my wife practically yelling at me that I was being had.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
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