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## Condition Track+ Supplementary conditions for my heartbreake

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OgreBattle
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### Condition Track+ Supplementary conditions for my heartbreake

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Post by OgreBattle » Fri May 29, 2015 6:32 pm

The ruleset being similar to D&D3.5, here's what I've got so far for a list of conditions and a main condition track:

> Tier I: Shaken
> "The ogre’s hammering blows shook Ragnar to the bone."
> A shaken character...
> takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, defense, skill checks, and ability checks.
> Tier II: Staggered
> "Ragnar staggered as his belly twisted in a knot, the pie had gone bad..."
> A staggered character...
> takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls, defense, skill checks, and ability checks
> Tier III: Dazed
> "The spray of color from the beguiler's palm stunned Ragnar"
> A stunned character...
> takes a -6 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks
> Reduce speed by 1/2
> Tier IV: Stunned
> "Ragnar locked eyes with the Lich and was dazed with fear"
> A dazed character...
> suffer everything from stunned but also...
> Loses all their actions (but still sensory aware)
> Tier V: Unconscious
> *fall prone
> *no sensory awareness
> Tier VI: "He's dead Jim"

I'm mulling over tying this condition track directly to a hitbox system, where everything has 10 hitboxes and what condition they're at is dependent on what boxes have been filled, (like what Shadowrun does). So if you have X amount of boxes filled you're always 'staggered'. There's also 'temp damage' that fills up boxes but goes away after a round or so, like being struck by a color spray so someone at full hitboxes will merely be staggered for a round but someone with only one hitbox left would be KO'd for that round then return to their already dazed state.
The three damage types are...
Lethal: requires treatment to heal (sword, fireball)
Stun: goes away with rest (exhaustion, nonlethal blunt trauma)
Temp: disappears within rounds (demoralized, dazzled)
Working alongside this track are supplementary conditions:

> Repulsed
> *Cannot move toward source of repulsion
> Terrified
> "Ragnar met the death knight's gaze and fled in terror"
> *Must move from line of sight of source of terror (such as cowering behind cover) at combat speed or greater.
> Lured
> *Must move towards source of compulsion at combat speed or greater
> Dominated
> "My hips are moving on their own!"
> *Lose control of character.
> *Depending on how defiant the dominated character is they may suffer effects on the condition track to show their resistance. So the chaste paladin heroically struggling against the Incubus's seduction is stunned but the ranger all lovey dovey towards the dryad is merely shaken.
> Jolted (also works for holding slippery objects)
> *Make a check or drop held object
> Anchored
> *Cannot move X distance away from anchoring point, if anchoring point is moved you move with it
> *Anchoring is caused by a physical restraint (chained, grappled) or magical effect

This next group of conditions deal with sensory, physical, mental restraint and use an advantage/disadvantage reroll mechanic:

> Restrained/Entangled/Off Balance (such as on greased ground)
> *character grants advantage
> *suffers disadvantage on attack rolls, physical saving throws, physical skill/ability checks
> *cannot charge or run without risk of falling prone
> Sensory Disabled
> Having a sense disabled causes automatic failure in checks that use those senses
> Blind (sight)
> Deaf (hearing)
> Anosmic (scent)
> Numb (touch)
> Confused (mental): character grants advantage to mental attacks against them
> Losing one’s primary sense (for humans it’s sight, for bats its hearing, etc.) also inflicts further penalties
> *character grants advantage to physical attacks
> *suffers disadvantage on attack rolls, physical saving throws, relevant skill/ability checks
> *cannot charge or run without risk of falling prone

So being physically and cognitively restrained makes you more vulnerable to physical attack, but you have to mentally restrain people to get advantage on attacking their mind.
I figure moves like "Petrify" are more like a fancy effect to put over killing someone, so I'm not sure if it should be called a 'condition'. I guess I can make a list of 'dead' effects like turning to stone or having your soul stolen. I also figure things like filling up someone's hitboxes with demoralization damage shouldn't KO or kill people, but instead set a status effect like "surrender"
Any glaring omissions in this list?
Last edited by OgreBattle on Sun May 31, 2015 6:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Sat May 30, 2015 9:58 pm

Why is dazed a more sever condition than stunned?
I mean, I know that they are synonyms, but stunned turns up a lot more in games, and I know of it mostly as unable to take an action for a short time.
Whereas daze is related to dazzle, which sounds a lot more sparkly, and therefore less dangerous.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:45 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:Why is dazed a more sever condition than stunned?
> I mean, I know that they are synonyms, but stunned turns up a lot more in games, and I know of it mostly as unable to take an action for a short time.
> Whereas daze is related to dazzle, which sounds a lot more sparkly, and therefore less dangerous.

Was originally 'paralyzed' so I switched it to dazed when I figured 'paralyze' was too specific sounding, now I've shuffled the naming order to follow D&D3 conventions better, or I can throw out the names and just do it like shadowrun and say "every 3 hitboxes of damage taken adds cumulative -2 penalties to rolls"
For the restrained condition I've added'sub conditions'. If you're manacled you follow the restrained rules but if you're hog tied then the conditions for disabling tool limbs and mobility limbs applies

> MAIN CONDITION:
> Restrained/Entangled/Off Balance (such as on greased ground)
> *character grants advantage
> *suffers disadvantage on attack rolls, physical saving throws, physical skill/ability checks
> *cannot charge or run without risk of falling prone
> SUB CONDITION:
> Arm (tool limb) disabled
> *cannot use limb for actions
> Leg (mobility limb) disabled
> *can only move 5ft with a full round action

Rewording sensory debilitation to be easier to look at:

> Sensory Disabled
> Having a sense disabled causes automatic failure in checks that use those senses. Losing one’s primary sense (for humans it’s sight, for bats its hearing, etc.) also inflicts further penalties
> Losing primary senses:
> *character grants advantage to physical attacks
> *suffers disadvantage on initiative, attack rolls, physical saving throws, relevant skill/ability checks
> *cannot charge or run without check to see if they fall prone
> Blind (sight)
> Deaf (hearing)
> Anosmic (scent)
> Numb (touch)
> Confused (mental): character grants advantage to all attacks (mental included) against them

Something I'm looking at is how to handle cover/concealment. Is the disadvantage system adequate, or is there a good reason to roll a d20 for a miss % separate from other rolls? Or should it be a flat penalty to hit?
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Wulfbanes
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Post by Wulfbanes » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:43 pm

You're speaking of multiple damage tracks with varying timeframes. It sounds like a pain to bookkeep, without adding fun to the table. Also, it is so complicated and full of steps, it has essentially become a HP system, which seems like what you wanted to resolve in the first place.
This sounds like a pretty clunky and inconvenient Death Spiral.

> Okay, pretend for a moment DnD3e had a Death Spiral. Whenever your character takes damage in combat it would not only decrease his Hit Points, but also diminish he Strength and Dexterity. This means, not only is he closer to dying, but his ability to hit, deal damage, and avoid damage are also lowered. This makes it harder for him to defend himself and/or kill his opponent.
> So what makes this so bad? Shouldn’t characters suffer penalties for losing? Sure, but here’s the thing about Death Spirals that make them so bad. After the initial exchange, none of the further exchanges have any meaning. The stakes of the situation have already been decided! Go back to the above example. With an opponent’s Atk, AC, and Hit Points lowered, the chances of your harming him again are much greater. The chances of him harming you are less. Baring a great stroke of luck, you will harm him again. Then his STR and DEX lower even more. Making him even easier to hit and less likely to hit you. Will further exchanges change the course of the future for that character? No. So after the initial hit, the fight was decided. People just ended up wasting a lot of time rolling more dice. That’s boring.

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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:02 pm

While death spirals are an inherent danger of any damage track where progression in anyway debilitates victims... well I'd hope anyone around here would know that already since we've been going on about it for what feels like decades.
Multiple damage track related worries though... are less about worrying about death spirals and more about worrying about say... the whole thing where it incentivizes specialist parties that only deal in the same damage track so as to progress it faster.
If your petrify damage track won't actually defeat an enemy until finished, and your stabbing damage track is the same and your disintegration damage track is the same... then bringing three guys who specialize in one of those tracks each has significantly less focus fire potential than bringing three guys who all specialize in the same one of those.
Solutions to that are problematic. Damage track steps that deal conditions the party would want to put on enemies regardless of damage track type specialisation of the characters risk death spirals, unifying your damage tracks makes certain grognards very angry, and save or dies have developed what is frankly a deeply unfair status as something we should be removing for no reason.
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Omegonthesane
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Post by Omegonthesane » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:26 pm

> PhoneLobster wrote:Solutions to that are problematic. Damage track steps that deal conditions the party would want to put on enemies regardless of damage track type specialisation of the characters risk death spirals, unifying your damage tracks makes certain grognards very angry, and save or dies have developed what is frankly a deeply unfair status as something we should be removing for no reason.

You say that one like it's a counterargument. Making grognards angry seems like a useful heuristic for "is this good design? (y/n)".

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virgil
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Post by virgil » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:33 pm

> Omegonthesane wrote:

> > PhoneLobster wrote:Solutions to that are problematic. Damage track steps that deal conditions the party would want to put on enemies regardless of damage track type specialisation of the characters risk death spirals, unifying your damage tracks makes certain grognards very angry, and save or dies have developed what is frankly a deeply unfair status as something we should be removing for no reason.

> You say that one like it's a counterargument. Making grognards angry seems like a useful heuristic for "is this good design? (y/n)".

I'm reasonably certain that was sarcasm on PL's part; and unsurprising for him to characterize those who criticize his own design choices as grognards.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:24 pm

> PhoneLobster wrote: If your petrify damage track won't actually defeat an enemy until finished, and your stabbing damage track is the same and your disintegration damage track is the same... then bringing three guys who specialize in one of those tracks each has significantly less focus fire potential than bringing three guys who all specialize in the same one of those.

They'd all inflict hitpoint damage and some additional conditions that have at most two steps ("restrained"->"restrained+limb disabled").
I figure I can discard the "the more damage you take the more penalties you wrack up" tiered condition track and just use a 'bloodied' condition, where if you're below 50% health you take more damage but your ability to inflict damage is not affected.
Petrify deals hitpoint damage and the basic restrained condition, but against a bloodied target they'd get to inflict an additional limb specific restrained condition. So at first the medusa gazes someone and their movements slow down (hitpoint damage and restrained), then the medusa's murlock buddy stabs that restrained dude to bloodied. The next turn the medusa gazes at the bloodied guy and his legs/arms are turned to stone and stop functioning. By the time the medusa has gazed all of someone's limbs to stone they've either already taken enough damage to die (turn to stone) or they're so severely debilitated they're out of the fight.
So a fear dude would hit someone with a 'repulsed' condition that prevents movement towards the fear dude. But if their target is bloodied then they're terrified and run away.
A medusa and fear dude working together can then prevent someone from moving towards them while slowing down their movement and laugh merrily as they shoot arrows.
With the 'bloodied' mechanic that multi-tiered wound system is simplified to a two step "shaken->staggered" condition.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon Jun 01, 2015 3:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:57 pm

I'm generally in favour of people being easier to stone if they're already terrified and slowed. It's even fair enough if heroes can automatically avoid the worst conditions by just grabbing a handful of penalties for a while.
So rather than become a statue, you close you eyes and are blinded, or you're feeling pretty good yet and can avert your eyes and just be dazzled. Automatically, like heroes.
Like the track in Star Wars Saga edition, my attempts at systematising that have lead to player behaviour that seeks the penalty stacks. Your idea where once you're bloodied, you suffer the worse fate, is basically where you have half hit points but instead of dying at zero you suffer the next special effect at the higher type.
Like, you could be slowed for a round by disarm attacks, or disarmed and cowed for a few rounds once "bloody". The only thing you can't do to heroes on "bloodied" is kill them with damage, so no one will bother, they'll just win the fight instead. It does delay that from round one in 3e though.
Taking that to a further extent: keep 3 tiers. Becoming a statue or actually dying are the third step, and most of the time it's easier for stuff to get you to run away or lock you down. The Medusa's focused gaze can deal big temp damage (stress), and pass through dazzled and blinded, but when fighting with a fear dude the softer condition of "frightened" comes up first and no one who can take a hit actually turns to stone.
But, if you've got like 10 hit points and see a medusa, it gazes for 20 temp damage and you are a statue. Who needs saving throws. Well, if you don't have the inflating hit point defence you need saves instead.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:03 pm

> OgreBattle wrote:...I figure I can discard the "the more damage you take the more penalties you wrack up" tiered condition track and just use a 'bloodied' condition, where if you're below 50% health you take more damage but your ability to inflict damage is not affected.
> Petrify deals hitpoint damage and the basic restrained condition, but against a bloodied target they'd get to inflict an additional limb specific restrained condition...

I was pretty sure you weren't going with something altogether like what I was talking about in reference to wulfbane's post, part of why I was talking about it.
But this isn't entirely what I was expecting either.
I don't think I especially like the look of this whole broadly applicable bloodied stuff. On a number of levels.
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