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## So... Star Wars [Spoilers]

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MGuy
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Post by MGuy » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:37 pm

Is KOTOR era stuff also owned by Disney?
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> MGuy wrote:Finally a thread about fighters!

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Kaelik
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### Re: So... Star Wars [Spoilers]

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Post by Kaelik » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:04 pm

> hyzmarca wrote:The First Order controls some backwater Rim territories that were never part of the Republic or the Empire, but which were sympathetic to the Empire, and so provided a safe haven for war criminals to flee to in the wake of the Empire's defeat.

While it is an open question how much of the galaxy map and the empire control carries over, I'm going to call bullshit.
First off, anyone sympathetic to the empire was in the empire, because the empire didn't have friends who didn't join.
Second off, the empire obviously included all the Core, Inner Rim, Expansion, and Mid Rim no question, but here is a list of planets with Imperial garrisons pre New Hope:
Sluis Van, Bpfassh, Praesitlyn, Ryloth, Ukio, Belsavis, Bakura, Kessel, Tund, Mon Calamari, Ruuria, Bimmiel, Yaga Minor, Bastion.
That's basically a complete encirclement of the galaxy aside from the unknown regions, which we know a) no one goes in because hyperspace sucks, and b) the Chiss are there.
There really isn't any part of the galaxy that you could point to as being outside the scope of the empire aside from places deliberately left that way like Hutt space (which honestly, was probably sort of under imperial rule) or the Corporate Sector and Hapes Cluster.
Last edited by Kaelik on Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:17 pm

The galaxy map has been blank-slated, so if they say there are Outer Rim regions that weren't under the control of the Empire there are Outer Rim regions that weren't under the control of the Empire. Possibly just because they're far away and not really worth absorbing into the bureaucracy.
Anyways, from what's in the movie it's pretty clear that the Republic doesn't want to enter into open war against the First Order for whatever reason and the Resistance is serving as their proxies, cold war style. I haven't looked at their new secondary material, so I assumed that the First Order retained a pretty large chunk of the Imperial military and now that they've got their shit together a hot war would not be fun times for anyone.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:33 pm

> name_here wrote:The galaxy map has been blank-slated, so if they say there are Outer Rim regions that weren't under the control of the Empire there are Outer Rim regions that weren't under the control of the Empire. Possibly just because they're far away and not really worth absorbing into the bureaucracy.

Once again 1) It really isn't clear that it has been blank slated.
2) Did they actually say that the First Order worlds were not under the empire's control? Because I saw no evidence of that whatsoever. I saw some asshole in this thread say that, but I promise you that doesn't make it canon.
3) The empire controlled Tatooine I don't think "far away and not really worth absorbing" even exists.
4) As I said, the idea that there exists any non-zero number of worlds who wanted to be part of the empire but couldn't get admitted is basically incompatible with the empire as depicted in New Hope to Return of the Jedi.
EDIT: In fact a cursory google search reveals that Disney has already released a new map, that basically just overlaps the old one with all the same planets in pretty much exactly the same spots. It shows Star Killer Based in the edge of the "Unknown Regions" which now includes both the old Unknown Regions and the old Wild Space (where the base is) very close to the location of the Imperial Remnant.
Last edited by Kaelik on Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:36 pm

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/First_Order

> Citing the Visual Dictionary wrote:With the Empire limited in its ability to wage war and reduced to a mere fragment of its former glory, Imperial warships began jumping into the Unknown Regions in an effort to escape the prying eyes of the New Republic. There, distanced from the galaxy at large and facing a vast and unexplored frontier, the First Order would eventually be formed from the remnants of the Old Empire, being inspired by the principles of the fallen government and led by former officers of the Empire.

There's an interview where Abrams specifically cites the "Nazi refugees take over Argentina" analogy.
Last edited by virgil on Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:39 pm

> MGuy wrote:Is KOTOR era stuff also owned by Disney?

Everything Star Wars is owned by Disney. But they specifically de-canonized all C-Canon material, which includes all the KOTR stuff.
The only only old stuff that's canon for Disney are the movies and the Clone Wars television series (which had heavy input from Lucas and was considered canon by him).
Most of the new stuff produced by Disney is canon, however. That includes all the new Marvel comics. But they havn't written anything in the old republic era, yet.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:51 pm

> virgil wrote:http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/First_Order

> > Citing the Visual Dictionary wrote:With the Empire limited in its ability to wage war and reduced to a mere fragment of its former glory, Imperial warships began jumping into the Unknown Regions in an effort to escape the prying eyes of the New Republic. There, distanced from the galaxy at large and facing a vast and unexplored frontier, the First Order would eventually be formed from the remnants of the Old Empire, being inspired by the principles of the fallen government and led by former officers of the Empire.

> There's an interview where Abrams specifically cites the "Nazi refugees take over Argentina" analogy.

Well then he's a fucking idiot, because the Unknown Regions aren't Argentina, they are the fucking Moon, he should have cited Iron Sky.
The First Order coming out of the Unknown Regions isn't terrible, but there are no fucking people in the Unknown Region to conqueror (or at least no known people) and there is basically fuck all zero contact between the unknown regions and the rest of the galaxy.
But yes, since my point was that the empire controlled the entire outer rim, and they went to someplace that isn't the outer rim, I am now declaring myself victorious for being right about some completely arbitrary point regarding the meaningless bullshit of where the First Order was in charge.
Last edited by Kaelik on Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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fbmf
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Post by fbmf » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:20 pm

> hyzmarca wrote:

> > fbmf wrote:

> > > original trilogy has a strange sort of magic where everything came together.

> > The term you're looking from is "nostalgia", which is just mind caulk for,things you grew up with.
> > Game On,
> > fbmf

> It's more than just nostalgia. The original trilogy was wildly popular when it came out and remained wildly popular for decades without abatement.

How do you know this trilogy won't be wildly popular? By all measures thus far, it is. While it is true that it probably won't still be in theatres a year from now like Episode IV, that's just the way the Amazon Prime/DVD/Blu-Ray market works these days.

> There is a reason for that. It hits the goldilocks zone where everything is simultaneously incredibly cool but believable. And it was original. It hit all the classic hero's journey beats in new and interesting ways.

Emphasis mine.
What value of believable are you using? It's SCI-FI (Not the hardcore kind)/Fantasy. When we left the theatre in 1983 after RotJ, 4 Year Old FBMF asked his step father asked why they had all this advanced STAR TREK stuff if it happened A Long Time Ago. Even 4 Year Old me knew Star Wars wasn't "believable".
While it is true that Ep VII is in many ways a re-tread of Ep IV...
Han and Leia hang lampshades on it when Han points out that there is always a way to blow the doomsday device up, and Leia says out loud, "Han is right".
...we can't possibly evaluate an entire trilogy from one movie. Maybe the trilogy as a whole will suck, but this movie convinced me to at least wait and see (Ep I DID NOT convince me to adopt a "wait and see" attitude). I'm married to an English teacher, so I'm all about the broader significance of the hero's journey. Mrs. FBMF told me that as soon as...
Kylo Ren told Rey that Han was like the father she never had that she knew Han was doomed because the mentor has to be eliminated on the hero's journey
...so what if it's not an entirely original story? I'm delighted. The prequels were original Star Wars stories, and they sucked.
Now, hyz, maybe you're the kind of guy that doesn't appreciate callbacks. I'm the kind of guy that was okay with ST:ID even though it was a retread of Star Trek II*. I think it was Vidal Sassoon that said there is no accounting for taste. If you just didn;t like Ep VII, that's all good. Not liking it because it wasn't as "believable" as the Original Trilogy or didn't hit all of the "hero journey" plot points of the original trilogy in a new way is a bullshit argument, though.
I stand behind my words: The "strange sort of magic" you speak of is the nostalgia talking. It speaks to me also; no matter how good Eps VII-IX are, I'll never be 4 again and need every Kenner Star Wars toy EVAR for my August birthday, have an EWOK lunchbox for my kindergarten year, or every Kenner Star Wars toy I didn't get for my birthday for Christmas that year. It doesn't mean Ep VII got it wrong. We just aren't kids anymore.
Game On,
fbmf
*-Let me make it clear that I'm not a JJ Abrams fanboy. I never really got into LOST (despite my wife's best efforts, it lost me (NPI) after Season 1) or FIREFLY.
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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:35 pm

> fbmf wrote:

> > hyzmarca wrote:

> > > fbmf wrote:
> > > The term you're looking from is "nostalgia", which is just mind caulk for,things you grew up with.
> > > Game On,
> > > fbmf

> > It's more than just nostalgia. The original trilogy was wildly popular when it came out and remained wildly popular for decades without abatement.

> How do you know this trilogy won't be wildly popular? By all measures thus far, it is. While it is true that it probably won't still be in theatres a year from now like Episode IV, that's just the way the Amazon Prime/DVD/Blu-Ray market works these days.

Did I mention this trilogy, at all?

> > There is a reason for that. It hits the goldilocks zone where everything is simultaneously incredibly cool but believable. And it was original. It hit all the classic hero's journey beats in new and interesting ways.

> Emphasis mine.
> What value of believable are you using? It's SCI-FI (Not the hardcore kind)/Fantasy. When we left the theatre in 1983 after RotJ, 4 Year Old FBMF asked his step father asked why they had all this advanced STAR TREK stuff if it happened A Long Time Ago. Even 4 Year Old me knew Star Wars wasn't "believable".

In the sense that it doesn't strain your suspension of disbelief. Once you buy into the central concepts of the setting the whole thing has verisimilitude. There is no point is there any incongruity that pulls you out of the story.

> Not liking it because it wasn't as "believable" as the Original Trilogy or didn't hit all of the "hero journey" plot points of the original trilogy in a new way is a bullshit argument, though.

I didn't make that argument. I didn't make any arguments regarding the quality of the new film.

> The "strange sort of magic" you speak of is the nostalgia talking.

I'm not the one who said that, specifically, and I have no idea who did, because the original doesn't appear in this thread.
But, I stand by the assertion that all the people who praised Star Wars in 1977 were not suffering from nostalgia and that the original trilogy is actually pretty good.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:18 pm

Why was R2D2 on that backwater planet? For that matter, why was Leia there?
Why did Luke leave part of a map with that guy on Jakku? For that matter, who was that guy supposed to be? Why did R2D2 have the rest of the map, why was he inactive, and why did he suddenly activate at the end?
As is the case with many lower-quality sequels, the audience is presumed to be fully familiar with previous works and so little is explained. Except even new stuff in this movie wasn't explained, just sort of presented.
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:28 pm

R2D2 and Leia were on that planet because it's the site of Resistance HQ. It's presumably not in the same system as the bar-temple because the First Order got there ahead of the Resistance. The old guy is apparently in some way associated with the new Jedi Order. Luke split up the map, gave some of it to oldman man and some to R2D2, who switched himself off until some condition was met. Luke presumably wanted people to find him eventually and will probably explain why once he gets lines.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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virgil
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Post by virgil » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:41 pm

> Occluded Sun wrote:Why was R2D2 on that backwater planet? For that matter, why was Leia there?

Leia was part of the Resistance against the First Order. Both R2-D2 and C-3PO were owned by her (essentially), and she brought them with her.

> Why did Luke leave part of a map with that guy on Jakku? For that matter, who was that guy supposed to be?

Nobody said where the part of the map came from, and it was only supposedly a map to Luke. It was explicitly stated to be a map to the First Jedi Temple, and likely where Luke went. As to how it got there, it's unimportant backstory where the only important part is its final destination, that old guy. That guy is obviously someone with some connections to the Jedi Order, either a fanboy or muggle service worker for Luke's new Jedi Order being my first guess. In related books, he's revealed Lor San Tekka, a really old guy who was alive before the rise of the Empire and a member of Church of the Force (underground pro-Jedi cult for muggles). So...a fanboy.

> Why did R2D2 have the rest of the map, why was he inactive, and why did he suddenly activate at the end?

He had a complete map of the galaxy, which isn't exactly a crazy concept for a droid. It's been stated in the movie that complete maps were hard to come by, very likely because of the whole break down of the government. The map fragment only gave directions within the immediate area, and was worthless without context, which R2's map gave. As for why he was inactive, 3PO had a short monologue detailing why; Luke ran off, R2 got depressed. As for why/how he reactivated, not a damn clue.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:23 pm

Word of the director is that R2 started to wake up when someone mentioned having the map piece in his presence, but it took him a long time to reboot because he's very old.
Which strikes me as fast-talking to cover an error, because it would have been real easy to show *some* sign of R2 starting to come 'round that nobody noticed because they were kind of busy dealing with the enemy base.
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Mechalich
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Post by Mechalich » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:25 am

> virgil wrote:He had a complete map of the galaxy, which isn't exactly a crazy concept for a droid. It's been stated in the movie that complete maps were hard to come by, very likely because of the whole break down of the government. The map fragment only gave directions within the immediate area, and was worthless without context, which R2's map gave.

Though the movie presented it badly by having the maps fit together like puzzle pieces, the map fragment being worthless without context actually makes sense because a galaxy map isn't a map in the same sense as a map of the earth is. A galaxy map is actually a complex computational n-body model that has to represent hundreds of billions of stars, brown dwarfs, black holes, and other stellar-class objects that are continually moving in reference to each other. In order to make hyperspace calculations you need to track all of this data quite closely.
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:26 pm

I presume that the "fly the Falcon straight through the shields" trick worked because doing so would blow out the hyperdrive, right? So they figured no one would strand themselves inside the shield, so didn't bother putting up basic defenses.
Because that's pretty much the only way to salvage planetary-scale shields, which would be useless otherwise - any enemy could obliterate a planet by attaching a hyperdrive to a bunch of asteroids and directing them through a shield.
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:43 pm

Meh. Coming out of hyperdrive had them show up with so little relative velocity that the passengers weren't turned to red mist when they hit some trees and were able to walk away from the ordeal having scarcely even put on seat belts. Teleporting large rocks that are apparently moving at less than 60 kph isn't going to blow up a lot of targets, and is probably a giant waste of hyperdrives. Considering that people keep individual ships with hyperdrives going for dozens of years, I assume that hyperdrives are comparatively expensive.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:45 pm

You have to remember that JJ is the guy who allowed Star Trek transporters to operate across interstellar distances, instantly invalidating an enormous chunk of the setting. Thinking through ramifications is not a thing he does.
Wondermark's take on the film is funny because it's true.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:25 pm

Also, given Han's "If I tell you, you won't like it" comment and the reaction when the others learned about the plan, I'm guessing that jumping inside of planetary shields doesn't usually work.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:08 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:Meh. Coming out of hyperdrive had them show up with so little relative velocity that the passengers weren't turned to red mist when they hit some trees and were able to walk away from the ordeal having scarcely even put on seat belts.

Um... hyperdrives, and for that matter every FTL technology in fiction, don't impart residual velocity. Not least because such systems bypass normal concepts of 'velocity' completely.

> Teleporting large rocks that are apparently moving at less than 60 kph isn't going to blow up a lot of targets

Um... planetary shields operate at the upper edge of the atmosphere at closest. Dropping a large rock on a target from the upper edge of the atmosphere will do a considerable amount of damage.
Oh, wait, I just remembered why I had you on Ignore: you're an utter moron. Back onto the list you go!
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:12 pm

> name_here wrote:Also, given Han's "If I tell you, you won't like it" comment and the reaction when the others learned about the plan, I'm guessing that jumping inside of planetary shields doesn't usually work.

Then it was a pretty stupid plan, since if they didn't make it, their side would lose.
At the very least they should have sent a bunch of small ships, since one or two might have been able to pass the shield through sheer luck.
This just wasn't a very good movie. In terms of making sense, 'Stargate' was better. I find the call to name it Best Movie of the Year rather absurd.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:15 pm

It's a Han plan.
Plus the Falcon has a stupidly high-end hyperdrive and if any ship is going to make it it's the Falcon.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:19 pm

I don't disagree with that argument, but I think they should have lampshaded it within the movie... instead of just having it happen and moving on.
"Most men are of no more use in their lives but as machines for turning food into excrement." - Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:52 pm

> Occluded Sun wrote:Um... planetary shields operate at the upper edge of the atmosphere at closest. Dropping a large rock on a target from the upper edge of the atmosphere will do a considerable amount of damage.

I understand you have me on ignore, so this is for all the other people who are less retarded. Dropping something from 100 kilometers up would, at Earth's gravity and without any air resistance, take about 143 seconds to hit the ground and be going at about 5000 kph when it did. That's very big. In terms of energy, that's almost a billion joules per tonne. Every 4.2 tonnes dropped in that manner would be one "tonne of TNT," and every 4.2 thousand tonnes would be a single kilotonne. From a weight to impact standpoint, that's about one twentyfive millionth the efficacy of an atomic bomb.
Planet killer asteroids kill planets because they are going very fast before they hit the atmosphere. Asteroid impacts are normally going 17 kilometers per second, not 1.4. Remember that kinetic energy is based on the square of velocity, so chunks of rock going at more than ten times the relative velocity hit more than a hundred times as hard. Just dropping a big rock is going to do a lot of damage, but only on the scale that dropping old school iron bombs would. Considering how explody ships get in Star Wars, you'd almost certainly be better off sending the hyperdrive in and then blowing up the hyperdrive.
The plan Occluded Sun laid out is many orders of magnitude too small to be a serious idea. It's like JJ Abrams levels of physics and math fail. Even if you could precisely come out of hyperdrive right inside the shield, it would still be less effective than the proton torpedoes that any Y-Wing carries.
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Occluded Sun
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Post by Occluded Sun » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:35 pm

Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why
The article is far less critical and contentious than the headline, which is kind of a shame, because I think a lot of people are thinking that.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:57 pm

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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