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## Spells that Dispel Buffs [Tome of Arcane]

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Kaelik
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### Spells that Dispel Buffs [Tome of Arcane]

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Post by Kaelik » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:18 am

Dispelling Magic in D&D is.... really dumb in about 8 different ways.
Obviously the first problem is that if someone actually has lots of buffs on, rolling dispel magics is just a huge chore. Then on top of that you have all the problems with Caster levels in D&D, from off the RNG one way to the other. And then at the end of all this you are talking about a level 3 spell that doesn't scale past level 10 and a level 6 spell that is exactly like the level 3 spell was for your early levels trying to compete with actual combat actions. Then finally, you have the buff problem, whether that in comes in the form of Teleport Ambushes or DMM Persist, or Incantatrix, or Spelldancer, where you cast buff spells that have a duration of all fucking day or many many days that greatly increase your power, so if you can pull on Caster Level or Dispel Caster Level Check shenanignas with Elven Spell Lore Master Specialist Abjurers with the Inquisition Domain and Arcane Mastery and those random as Dispel Beads casting Greater Dispel Magic and getting a result of 48 against all your spells of DC of 11+CL at level 11 and guaranteeing you have no buffs at all left.
Basically, it's all kind of crap.
So here are the goals for Dispeling Magical stuff:
1) Out of combat: Stuff can be ended with Dispel magic or Greater Dispel magic sure, and whatever, but also people can get all kinds of crazy debuffs that for one reason or another are immune to those spells and are cured by completely different spells like instantaneous duration paralyze spells or Break Enchantment only can fix this spells or whatever.
In Combat:
2) Just dropping all of someone's buffs is going to a thing that we don't want, because it distorts the playspace too much for everyone to be prepared to lose everything in one go. Even worse if it clears all the area effects on the battlefield.
3) Ideally we would avoid having enemies cast lots of useless buffs on themselves just to troll people casting Dispel things.
4) We definitely aren't going to be rolling 500 caster level checks.
5) While it does have some item effects, that's mostly just to not deprive people of actions, more than because we actually think this is a comprehensive item + dispel interactions. Item rules still need work, look there for some of this stuff.
All that said, here's some rules:
Identifying Active Buffs with the Spellcraft Skill/Spell
Right now the closest thing to identifying active buffs is the Spellcraft skill DC 20+spell level "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry." You can either keep this, and say that all buff spells have a visible effect (but you can't see any of them unless you can see the creature, so you can't identify invisible people by their buffs, but you can identify invisible people's buffs if you can see them).
You could also increase this to 25+spell level to detect buffs, because they are harder to figure out than free standing spells if you want identifying them to be a higher level effect.
Alternatively you can tell people to fuck off and cast Analyze Dweomer, I don't recommend this really, but I'm not fully thrilled with the spellcraft thing.
You may want to reduce the roll to a single roll and compare it to all spells. You certainly lose granularity, but if someone has 50 buffs do you really want to roll 50 times?
This doesn't apply to items? Maybe that should be a Knowledge Arcana Check? Honestly I don't find a skill check to be the best way of dealing with this, but what you gonna do? Maybe this should be limited to Analyze Dweomer?
Spells
Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action or 1 immediate action, See text.
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You can Dispel magic effects by targeting a specific magical spell, magical item, or magical creature. Alternatively you can dispel effects in a 20ft Radius Burst. Finally, as an Immediate action, you can counter a spell as it is being cast.
Targeted Dispel: Item
You Automatically suppress the magical effects of an item for 1d4 rounds.
Targeted Dispel: Spell
You can target a single spell effect that you have identified or that is readily targeted like a Fog Cloud around you. This can even be targeted on a specific enemies specific buff or an allies specific debuff, if you want. You roll a Caster Level check of 1d20+your Caster Level, with a cap of 10 on the Caster level bonus against a DC of the Caster Level of the spell. If you succeed, the spell ceases to occur. You can only target an Area of Effect spell if the point of origin is within Medium Range and you have Line of Effect to that Point of Origin.
Targeted Dispel: Creature
You can target a single creature, if you do so you roll a single Caster Level Check as above against a DC of the Caster level of the lowest Caster Level off the spells currently effecting the targeted creature. If you succeed you end one random spell as if the duration expired. For each 5 points you exceed the DC, you end an additional spell.
At your option you may name a specific spell, if that spell is on the creature, it will be the third spell ended. If that spell is not on the creature, it ends a random spell instead.
Area Dispel
An Area Dispel treats all spells in the area as if they are all spells on a single creature. Area spells are only included if the point of origin is within the area. You make a Caster Level check as for a Targeted Dispel on a creature.
At your option may name a specific spell, if that spell is on any creature it will be the fourth spell ended and will be ended on every single creature within the area (or multiple area spells) counting as only a single ended effect.
Counterspell
For a Counterspell make an opposed Caster Level check on which you take a -5 penalty, note that this Caster level check does not have a +10 cap though like the above. If you succeed, the spell is countered and never takes place.
Greater Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Clr 6, Drd 6, Sor/Wiz 6, Whatever it usually is for other weird classes?
This spell is exactly as Dispel Magic except that:
1) All the caster level checks have no Caster level caps. They extend with your Caster Level. (If someone has Greater Consumptive Field Persisted, that's your fucking problem.)
2) A Targeted Dispel: Item suppresses the effect for 12 hours.
3) The named spell in either the Area Dispel or the Targeted Dispel is the first effect ended.
4) Counterspell caster level checks have no -5 penalty.
Dispel Shield
Abjuration
Level: Clr 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal?
Target: Personal
Duration: 12 Hours
If you cast this spell, it is always the first spell ended if you are subject to an Area Dispel or Targeted Dispel. If the Area of Targeted Dispel comes from Greater Dispel, then the named spell is moved to the second effect ended.
So yeah, how about that?
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Ice9
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Post by Ice9 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:46 pm

Item: So any item falls to any caster? It makes that a downside of items compared to personal ability, which might be fine.
Spell: Spells get ended pretty easily, since the dispeller has a +10 advantage.
In combat, that seems fine 1 on 1, might be weird with one stronger caster facing multiple lower-level casters; they won’t be able to keep any magic up. But OTOH multiple casters could probably do something else annoying anyway.
Out of combat, it means that anything important can’t just rely on a high CL, it has to be non-dispellable to survive. A CL 30 effect still falls to a 10th level Wizard eventually. Not sure I like this effect.
Creature: I like the “more spells the better you dispel” mechanic, and with the +10 advantage the named spell will effectively be at even odds, which sounds about right. The only thing I dislike is that casting a CL 1 buff/debuff on someone makes their CL 20 buffs incredibly easier to dispel. That’s a bit too much effect for a very easy combo.
Maybe it should be “highest” instead? That does make a permanent spell with a boosted CL into somewhat of a dispel defense, but that still seems better.
Area: Working like the creature version is fine, but the “lowest CL” thing has even more of an effect here. Just standing near a weak spell makes you more vulnerable?
Perhaps the solution to both this and the creature version is to choose a CL when you cast Dispel. That’s what you make the check against, and anything of that CL or below is eligible to be dispelled - things above it aren’t.
Counterspell: I saw the -5 and was about to say it sucked, then I saw "immediate action". Looks good.
Greater Targeted: You're pretty much guaranteed to get the named one, and probably 2+ others. Rather nasty, but it is a 6th level spell.
Greater Area: This might be too good. You can dispel a buff on everyone in the area, almost guaranteed (definitely guaranteed, if using the lowest CL), and get a few others too. It’s not out of line for a major foe to do this, but this could be someone five levels below you and they’d still have a good shot. Of course by the point that GDM is a mook spell, you’re 16th level and everything is broken, so eh.
TL;DR - Looks good in general. “Lowest CL” has issues.
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JonSetanta
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Post by JonSetanta » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:27 pm

"Counterspell" should be a separate spell.
If you want to Dispel on someone else's turn with the variable version, that's a readied action.

> The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑
> Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
> Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.

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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:20 pm

> Ice9 wrote:Item: So any item falls to any caster? It makes that a downside of items compared to personal ability, which might be fine.

You also get one item, where you could have a bunch of buffs.

> Ice9 wrote:Out of combat, it means that anything important can’t just rely on a high CL, it has to be non-dispellable to survive. A CL 30 effect still falls to a 10th level Wizard eventually. Not sure I like this effect.

While it's certainly possible that I'm wrong, my review of "things I don't want dispelled" featured almost entirely things already immune to dispel magic and huge fuck off effects that allowed you to cast it in a location that the point or origin is protected. IE, Cast Control Weather, pop off some walls and a ceiling, and move on knowing that no one is going to dispel it without finding it and walking in.
As opposed to current rules where anyone within 2 miles can just look up and go "Fuck this spell."

> Ice9 wrote:The only thing I dislike is that casting a CL 1 buff/debuff on someone makes their CL 20 buffs incredibly easier to dispel. That’s a bit too much effect for a very easy combo.
> Maybe it should be “highest” instead? That does make a permanent spell with a boosted CL into somewhat of a dispel defense, but that still seems better.
> Area: Working like the creature version is fine, but the “lowest CL” thing has even more of an effect here. Just standing near a weak spell makes you more vulnerable?
> Perhaps the solution to both this and the creature version is to choose a CL when you cast Dispel. That’s what you make the check against, and anything of that CL or below is eligible to be dispelled - things above it aren’t.
> ...
> TL;DR - Looks good in general. “Lowest CL” has issues.

Well let's look at the options:
1) Option 1: Highest Caster Level: Everyone pulls dumb temporary Caster Level Shenanigans to cast a 48 hour buff on themselves every 2 days, and this is just the way the game is played, also all Clerics are immune to dispells, and probably Wizards too.
2) Option 2: Lowest Caster Level: If people expect to be facing buffed enemies, and they think it is important to dispel those buffs instead of killing someone, they carry around scrolls of CL 1 magic weapon, then use that before the breaching charges are planted, and as soon as the breaching charges blow they throw the magic dagger next to the BBEG and then area dispel him, and now they dispel between 0 and 3 additional buff spells more than they would have!!!! If they are facing a level 15 BBEG their level 5 casters who are inexplicably alive still after facing all of the BBEG's protections and minions can combo dispel people until they get rid of all their buffs.
3) Option 3: "Choose caster level" You now have to correctly guess the caster level of every enemy in the game to have even the faintest hint of dispelling. Also Caster level shenanigans still make your long duration buffs immune to dispelling.
I'm not saying their aren't problem cases, I specifically named the "cast spell from scroll or henchman + area dispel" as my biggest problem with the spell as written. But that's still way the fuck better than Caster level guessing game or immunity to dispels for everyone.

> JonSetanta wrote:"Counterspell" should be a separate spell.
> If you want to Dispel on someone else's turn with the variable version, that's a readied action.

Benefits of making Counterspell part of Dispel magic:
1) Counterspelling with a readied action is so bad no one ever does it.
2) Same spell means Sorcerers and list casters don't need any changes or get any nerfs.
3) Versatility of preparation, if people prepare a single spell that can counterspell or dispel, they then are less limited, and therefore more likely to prepare it than either alone.
4) Choices, if they have both abilities, they have a choice to use the slot for one or the other, and so the choice to use their slot is more meaningful.
Benefits to making them different spells:
1) An idiot told me to without giving any reason at all....
Yeah, absent more information, I'm going to stick with my previous decision.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Sigil
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Post by Sigil » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:48 am

Another option, if you wanted Dispelling/Counterspelling to be things that get done more frequently in a game, is to change them from spells into actions that anyone with spell slots can take by expending an appropriate spell slot. After that you could even package the ability to take that action without expending a spell slot (some limited number of times, under certain circumstances, etc) so that non-casters that wanted some versatility could get in on the action.
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:05 am

> Sigil wrote:Another option, if you wanted Dispelling/Counterspelling to be things that get done more frequently in a game, is to change them from spells into actions that anyone with spell slots can take by expending an appropriate spell slot. After that you could even package the ability to take that action without expending a spell slot (some limited number of times, under certain circumstances, etc) so that non-casters that wanted some versatility could get in on the action.

If a non spell class should be counterspelling or dispelling it will be a class feature they have and either reference the spell or not. I don't particularly want Dispels to be more common and spontaneous, (I do want counters to be more common, because as is they happen literally never) but it's not because I think they should be a common part of the game, but just because since they are a thing (that you even need) they should work in a not shit way.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Ice9
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Post by Ice9 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:12 pm

> Kaelik wrote:Option 2: Lowest Caster Level: If people expect to be facing buffed enemies, and they think it is important to dispel those buffs instead of killing someone, they carry around scrolls of CL 1 magic weapon, then use that before the breaching charges are planted, and as soon as the breaching charges blow they throw the magic dagger next to the BBEG and then area dispel him, and now they dispel between 0 and 3 additional buff spells more than they would have!!!! If they are facing a level 15 BBEG their level 5 casters who are inexplicably alive still after facing all of the BBEG's protections and minions can combo dispel people until they get rid of all their buffs.

I think you're underselling it.
First off, there's no action or resource cost. You have a minion toss a coin with a CL 1 Arcane Mark on it next to them. Done.
Now let's do a comparison. You're 12th level. BBEG is 14-15th level, CL buffed up to 18. You roll a 10.
Without the coin: 22 vs 18: You dispel one buff.
With the coin: 22 vs 1: You dispel four buffs, meaning you get the named one.
Even more of a factor out of combat. You know how I said a 10th level Wizard could dispel anything up to CL 30? That's wrong. A 5th level Wizard can dispel anything, period. One try, zero chance of failure.
Last edited by Ice9 on Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:45 pm

> Ice9 wrote:First off, there's no action or resource cost. You have a minion toss a coin with a CL 1 Arcane Mark on it next to them. Done.

1) That's definitely a huge as fuck action cost/logistical cost. Either it's costing the action of a minion you successfully snuck deep into the BBEG's base without them dying, in which case they are a pretty baller minion, or it demands you have preparation time and advance knowledge of the BBEG fight to create minion that you then use in the breaching charge scenario. Logistically that's a big deal. If you were teleport ambushing him anyway, you should probably be winning.
2) I sure hope that no one the BBEG ever interacted with, including but not limited to his minions ever noticed you using this tactic before, because if they did, they probably toss out an AoE dispel on the party with the named spell Arcane Mark, and they destroy all your Arcane Mark tokens and get to dispel some buffs. And they can do this every time they see you, forcing you to go back and find a level 1 Wizard to cast Arcane Mark for you a bunch of times.

> Ice9 wrote:Now let's do a comparison. You're 12th level. BBEG is 14-15th level, CL buffed up to 18. You roll a 10.
> Without the coin: 22 vs 18: You dispel one buff.
> With the coin: 22 vs 1: You dispel four buffs, meaning you get the named one.

1) Why the fuck is he buffing his caster level up to goddam 18? Why do you think the version where you spend a standard action and roll a fucking 15 and get one buff and his dispel shield is something that is a better system.
2) You spent the standard action of a 12th level goddam character casting a spell, if it dispels the named buff, the dispel shield, and two other buffs, then that's the minimum acceptable usage for your party to not punch you in the face.
This is part of the problem. People think if you can dispel a specific spell it's somehow broken. No, that's the minimum accepted result for action cost of a 12th level character. People need to make characters that can continue to exist with a dispelled buff, and people need to play the game working around the fact that buffs can be dispelled.
The version where people wear Enduring Arcana Rings and pop a couple Prayer Beads to be immune to dispelling, and the DM responds with a character with +36 to dispel from non caster level sources and then dispels every buff is the problem.

> Ice9 wrote:Even more of a factor out of combat. You know how I said a 10th level Wizard could dispel anything up to CL 30? That's wrong. A 5th level Wizard can dispel anything, period. One try, zero chance of failure.

They can dispel anything with a point of origin within 20ft of their throwing arm that isn't immune to dispel magic. So what? What possible effect were they going to fail to dispel before they succeed now that you care about?

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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