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Fuchs
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Post by Fuchs » Sun May 20, 2012 7:48 pm

> Koumei wrote:

> > Fuchs wrote:We already have a game where those with more spare time can enjoy their hobbies more - it's called real life. Why should MMOGs favor those as well?

> Not without money we don't.

Depends on the hobby. Unless the hobby itself is costly, more fee time means more time for hobbies.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun May 20, 2012 8:58 pm

Even if your hobby is "masturbating to pornography on the internet", having more money gets you ahead in the hobby. In real life, I can devote a lot of time to putting together an army of space marines or figuring out how to fly fish, and guys with stupid amounts of cash can still waltz in and do better right off.
There are vanishingly few hobbies where huge piles of cash don't make you much better at it by default. In fact, the only ones I can think of are bowling and MMOs. Everything else from model trains to mountain biking has a heavy cash path.
-Username17
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Sun May 20, 2012 11:02 pm

I don't know... While having money will buy you better equipment in many hobbies, just having better equipment doesn't give you better skills and/or knowledge. You're essentially paying for ignorance, and those people who spend like they're hardcore but don't have the knowledge and experience to back it up end up looking like douches to other people with the same hobby.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Ted the Flayer
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Post by Ted the Flayer » Mon May 21, 2012 2:58 am

When I was in college, I had one fellow student vocally express his displeasure during my hiking class that I was wearing tennis shoes on a hike, and that if I was "serious" I'd have bought $200 hiking boots. Luckily, the teacher was a hippy and told him to blow it out his ass.

> Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.

> Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.

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Blasted
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Post by Blasted » Mon May 21, 2012 3:18 am

Wait, a hiking class?
As in, learning to walk?
And it's a college course?

> King Francis I's Mother said wrote:The love between the kings was not just of the beard, but of the heart

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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Mon May 21, 2012 4:05 am

> Blasted wrote:Wait, a hiking class?
> As in, learning to walk?
> And it's a college course?

PE class, probably. Go out and hit the trails for a while.
I can think of worse things to do than go walking for an hour on a nice day.
And better things to do than go walking in crappy weather for any real length of time.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Murtak
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Post by Murtak » Mon May 21, 2012 5:05 am

> Fuchs wrote:The problem with MMOGs is that a lot of their content is not fun to start with.
> If people would rather pay than level grind your game sucks.

With the general design of current MMOs this is unavoidable.
1. An MMO needs a critical mass of players or it fails.
2. That in turn necessitates people to keep playing the game. If they can actually finish it, they will do so and then leave, critical mass is gone, game dies.
3. When your game world is static, the only thing you can do to retain players is add more and more content. And you need to add it for those players who are close to finishing the game - the upper 10 to 20%.
4. Those players are also the most likely to have the time/motivation/organisation/smarts to just plow through massive amounts of new content the day it is released. So your new content needs to be hard and take time to complete. Hence grinding. Because if it can be completed without massive investments of time people will do so and be done with your game, which then dies.
Until we can get non-static worlds, with objectives other than having a better character sheet, we are stuck with grinding, at least for non-casual players.
Murtak
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Desdan_Mervolam
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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Mon May 21, 2012 6:09 am

There are other ways to extend gameplay other than focusing on the last ten percent of the game which not everyone gets to. Most of it is by increasing the number of questlines available at a given point of the game. Most games further extend this by creating multiple classes and multiple factions, all of whom get their own unique questlines.
In my experience, people do not play one single character to the end and then quit. They probably have a favorite character they play consistently, but they also have other characters they're playing around with, possibly to experiment with builds and playstyles, or just to find quest lines they didn't play the first time around.
The big problem with Massives is that questlines tend to be pretty formulaic. Go here, kill this number of that creature, get the shiny doohicky and come back to me. Not only is it boring, but it actively hurt massives in the long run because it taught gamers they only need to know what to kill and in what quantity, and what to get while doing it, meaning that there was no reason to actually read the mission's boxed text. This meant that if you tried to deviate from the formula, players wound up lost, frustrated and angry, angry at you. WoW was especially bad about this due to large stretches of time where it was either the only kid on the block, or by far the biggest kid on the block. Now, other games are starting to find (Some, few) handholds and WoW doesn't quite have the clout it used to, and players are sick of turning in their "Kill 20 Edgeriver Gnolls" mission to be handed a "Kill 25 Riveredge Gnolls" mission, so things are starting to get better on that front.
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
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Fuchs
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Post by Fuchs » Mon May 21, 2012 8:32 am

There's other ways to retain players than increasing the grind. You can make the game fun itself - TERA is on to something there - and you can rely on players to provide the content, through PvP, mission builders, and roleplay/social activities. All more cost-effective than adding grind after grind, and all more likely to foster a community - which will keep people playing, to the point of people playing a game they don't even like, just for the friends they made.
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ishy
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Post by ishy » Mon May 21, 2012 12:00 pm

So I've been playing the Torchlight 2 'Stresstest Beta weekend' last weekend and a bit of the trial version of D3.
I was talking and playing with friends, and apparently I mostly hold the mouse button in hack & slash games, while some like to click on their mouse a lot.
So that for example if you have a group of 20 enemies, I only click if I change my attack, not if I spam the same attack a few times, while some of my friends do click for every single use.
Which do you prefer?
ps. I so hate the D3 always online part. Had to quit playing because there was a server update, while in Torchlight 2 beta I only had the only option which still continued to work perfectly even as my connection died. Just that nobody could join my game.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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name_here
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Post by name_here » Mon May 21, 2012 12:22 pm

I prefer spam clicking myself. Hard to say why, really.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon May 21, 2012 12:41 pm

> name_here wrote:I prefer spam clicking myself. Hard to say why, really.

The auto-attack function in games like Everquest really turned me off. The point at which I didn't even have to be there to have my paladin grind pushed my interest in the hobby down to zero.
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Ted the Flayer
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Post by Ted the Flayer » Mon May 21, 2012 1:12 pm

> Maxus wrote:

> > Blasted wrote:Wait, a hiking class?
> > As in, learning to walk?
> > And it's a college course?

> PE class, probably. Go out and hit the trails for a while.
> I can think of worse things to do than go walking for an hour on a nice day.
> And better things to do than go walking in crappy weather for any real length of time.

Yeah, it was part of my PE requirements. I liked it because the teacher was more interested in going out there and teaching as we went along and let the class dictate the pace and such, I didn't like it because it was during the winter and it tended to get cold and a bit rainy at times.

> Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.

> Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.

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Fuchs
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Post by Fuchs » Mon May 21, 2012 1:17 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:

> > name_here wrote:I prefer spam clicking myself. Hard to say why, really.

> The auto-attack function in games like Everquest really turned me off. The point at which I didn't even have to be there to have my paladin grind pushed my interest in the hobby down to zero.
> -Username17

You should give TERA a try then - no auto attack, no auto-aim, no tab targetting. You still have specials and cooldowns, but it's far more dynamic than usualy MMOGs.
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Ted the Flayer
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Post by Ted the Flayer » Mon May 21, 2012 1:19 pm

> Fuchs wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote:

> > > name_here wrote:I prefer spam clicking myself. Hard to say why, really.

> > The auto-attack function in games like Everquest really turned me off. The point at which I didn't even have to be there to have my paladin grind pushed my interest in the hobby down to zero.
> > -Username17

> You should give TERA a try then - no auto attack, no auto-aim, no tab targetting. You still have specials and cooldowns, but it's far more dynamic than usualy MMOGs.

Also, pantyshots.

> Prak Anima wrote:Um, Frank, I believe you're missing the fact that the game is glorified spank material/foreplay.

> Frank Trollman wrote:I don't think that is any excuse for a game to have bad mechanics.

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Stahlseele
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Post by Stahlseele » Mon May 21, 2012 5:40 pm

Probably nothing close to Agent Aika, but then, what is?
Welcome, to IronHell.

> Shrapnel wrote:

> > TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.
> > Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue May 22, 2012 4:11 am

> Stahlseele wrote:Probably nothing close to Agent Aika, but then, what is?

1. Ikkitousen
2. Najica Blitz Tactics
3. Freezing
(Also: the other two Aika series)
Phantasy Star Online 2 looks incredibly awesome. So many customisation options, OPTIONS EVERYWHERE. And you can go decorate your base, making sure you have the right tablecloth (for the magic tea parties) to match the curtains and so on.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Maxus
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Post by Maxus » Tue May 22, 2012 4:24 am

That reminds me of the long, long times I spent in Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire, hunting for the perfect secret base.
Having a secret base to decorate is something I wouldn't mind if more games did...
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.
--The horror of Mario
Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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ishy
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Post by ishy » Tue May 22, 2012 8:38 am

So just in case you wanted to play D3 single player and you find out you can't log in :
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... ems-stolen

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Tue May 22, 2012 9:07 am

> Koumei wrote:

> > Stahlseele wrote:Probably nothing close to Agent Aika, but then, what is?

> 1. Ikkitousen
> 2. Najica Blitz Tactics
> 3. Freezing
> (Also: the other two Aika series)
> Phantasy Star Online 2 looks incredibly awesome. So many customisation options, OPTIONS EVERYWHERE. And you can go decorate your base, making sure you have the right tablecloth (for the magic tea parties) to match the curtains and so on.

I-wha-wh-WHY DO I WANT TO PLAY THIS NOW!?!?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Tue May 22, 2012 1:05 pm

> ishy wrote:So just in case you wanted to play D3 single player and you find out you can't log in :
> http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... ems-stolen

Oh, wonderful. Another reason for me to love forced online play when all I want is single-player anyway.
I just started playing yesterday. The lag wasn't too bad except for about an hour-and-a-half in the mid/late evening. It wasn't so bad as to make the experience "unplayable", but the game does become literally unplayable for ten seconds at a time once every minute or two, that is a real problem.
Luckily, I never died due to lag, but I did come close twice, and that was even from me being at full health from the get-go. Which basically adds the extra dimension of needing to wait for your potion cool-down to expire before pressing on just in case the game happens to lag again at the wrong time...
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ishy
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Post by ishy » Wed May 23, 2012 1:15 am

> RobbyPants wrote:Oh, wonderful. Another reason for me to love forced online play when all I want is single-player anyway.

According to http://gucomics.com/archives/view.php?cdate=20120522 blizz login has A) no limited attempts and B) Isn't case sensitive
I am at a loss for words that in this day and age they have passwords which are not fucking case sensitive.

> Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game

> Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.

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name_here
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Post by name_here » Wed May 23, 2012 11:29 am

It's not what?
Christ, it is literally more difficult and time-consuming to make string comparisons case insensitive (although not all that much more), so there is just no excuse.
I mean, ordinarily I'd blame people who made weak passwords, but case-insensitive passwords are absolutely retarded and I feel every sympathy for those people.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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Fuchs
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Post by Fuchs » Wed May 23, 2012 11:42 am

Do they at least have a time delay between attempts?
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Wed May 23, 2012 12:58 pm

> name_here wrote:It's not what?
> Christ, it is literally more difficult and time-consuming to make string comparisons case insensitive (although not all that much more), so there is just no excuse.
> I mean, ordinarily I'd blame people who made weak passwords, but case-insensitive passwords are absolutely retarded and I feel every sympathy for those people.

Yeah, that is terrible. Like you said, they have to add in an extra line of code to convert both the password and the login attempt to lowercase (or uppercase, I guess), and it seriously weakens the strength of the password. That's 26 of those 97 character combinations lost. So an 8 character password only has 71^8 combinations instead of 97^8.
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