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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:28 am

> FrankTrollman wrote:Tim Kaine gets 100% from NARAL and Planned Parenthood, the people who actually scrutinize peoples' legislative records for real effect on abortion. Whatever the fuck Tim Kaine publicly says about Abortion, the actual effect he has had has been pro-choice. Note that Biden hems and haws about how as a Catholic he doesn't believe in abortion and yadda yadda yadda as well. And yet he still miraculously comes down on the right side when it comes to actual policy making.

Frank, your commentary is increasingly asstastic. You cherrypick whatever details make you happiest and ignore literally everything else. Take NARAL, for example - back when Kaine was running for governor, NARAL specifically refused to endorse him and under his tenure the state earned an F grade for implementing a number of "appropriate and reasonable checks on the right to abortion" (Kaine's words). So what were those appropriate and reasonable checks? Well, one of them was state funding for pregnancy crisis centers, which are pro-life organizations which just straight-up fucking lie to women about the medical consequences of abortion. You know, nothing serious - just paying a bunch of pro-life propagandists to deceive pregnant women into thinking abortions will ruin their lives and bodies. Totally appropriate, totally reasonable, totally above board. A+, Tim Kaine. A+.
It's likely that pro-choice organizations open contempt for Kaine is one of the factors that got him crossed off Obama's VP list in 2008. And that is about the time (along with the start of his Senate career) he changed his tune and started earning the rating you are now referring to, which is apparently as far as your knowledge on this topic goes - and conspicuously exactly what you wanted to find out about Tim Kaine. But I'm sure that's just an accident, right?
Tim Kaine did not just talk the moderate pro-life talk. He walked the moderate pro-life walk right up until it put a ceiling on his career. I will choose pragmatic assholes over Trump because that's not really a choice at all, but I won't stop calling them assholes and pushing for a more progressive Democratic party. What the fuck is with this centrist apologeticist thing you have going on lately, anyway?
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erik
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Post by erik » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:31 am

Kaelik, you can say that Bernie made socialism less of a dirty word and moved the needle leftward, but I think he got the support he did because of demographics already shifting to provide that support. If he tried for president with the demographics 10-20 years ago he would have been a nobody. While Bernie deserves some credit, I think you give too much credit to the individual politicians and not enough to the progression of demographics and social mores. That progression is what I'm holding on for.
I think things will continue to get better if we can continue to have Democrat presidents appointing federal judges and vetoing Republican batshit craziness until demographics complete the GOP's death knell. The demographic shift is basically a weakening of the party that is espousing hate and fear and antithetical to facts and logic. When the side of disinformation is losing, the side of facts and reality surely gets a bump. I do believe reality has a liberal bias, and when given a fair fight that liberal bias is winning out. The only blockade is if millions of voters get their voting rights taken away. If we can stop that then the liberal bias of reality should bear out and give evidence-based policies a chance.
I just want that fair fight.
I think the youth vote is too fucking unreliable still and I don't count on them to be proportionally involved in local elections or non-presidential elections, or even presidential elections. They will be courted when they fucking bother to vote. But they'll keep coming and be replacing their conservative forebears that forsook science and evidence as elitism. The new normal will be an expectation of healthcare for everyone, presidents who aren't white men, equal treatment for all sexual identities, a decreased sense of religiosity, a strong tolerance of diversity.
Another new normal that hasn't come to pass yet, but I think will soon... I think the influence of the NRA is going to wane because they fucking backed the wrong horse. They are all-in on Republicans, giving Democrats no reason to even bother courting them, and I think Dems are finally waking up to that. I actually have hope that in my lifetime there will be sensible gun laws, maybe even an amendment to neuter the 2nd Amendment before I have grandkids. I didn't have this hope even 1-2 years ago, but times are a changin.
I have more political optimism now than I ever have before. I was excited for Obama because I thought he was going to change the landscape (an unreasonable hope), but now I am excited because I'm not relying on a single politician to change the landscape, I'm expecting the changing landscape to change the politicians.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:46 pm

> erik wrote:Kaelik, you can say that Bernie made socialism less of a dirty word and moved the needle leftward, but I think he got the support he did because of demographics already shifting to provide that support. If he tried for president with the demographics 10-20 years ago he would have been a nobody. While Bernie deserves some credit, I think you give too much credit to the individual politicians and not enough to the progression of demographics and social mores. That progression is what I'm holding on for.

I don't give any credit at all to individual politicians, and that's my point.
Racism is bad, and Demographics help with that. But Black people and Hispanics are not all secret communists just waiting to explode, they are people tentatively buy in to whatever economic proposals are made by Democrats because Democrats don't call them them names and talk about how they are ruining the country. Demographics are never ever ever ever going to make actual left wing policies win as long as there are a bunch of non racist democrats advocating right wing policies.
I give zero credit to Bernie Sanders or any other politician, Sanders hasn't said a single thing economically to the left of Nixon and Eisenhower proposals, because that's where this country is. Clinton is even more to the right than Sanders on economics. I have only blame for politicians, because they have been telling everyone everywhere for 24 years EVEN ON THE "LEFT" that the only path forward economically is to kick people off welfare and lower taxes.

> erik wrote:I think things will continue to get better if we can continue to have Democrat presidents appointing federal judges and vetoing Republican batshit craziness until demographics complete the GOP's death knell. The demographic shift is basically a weakening of the party that is espousing hate and fear and antithetical to facts and logic. When the side of disinformation is losing, the side of facts and reality surely gets a bump. I do believe reality has a liberal bias, and when given a fair fight that liberal bias is winning out. The only blockade is if millions of voters get their voting rights taken away. If we can stop that then the liberal bias of reality should bear out and give evidence-based policies a chance.

Here's what is going to actually happen in your far flung death of the Republicans world:
1) The Republicans will die.
2) The Democrats will split into two parties:
a) The Democrats (let's be honest, they will keep the name, because they already rule the party with an iron fist): The party of lower taxes, more corporate welfare, more obedience to our rich masters, more pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps, more balanced budgets, but not racism or homophobia, but we will do the minimal possible amount of leftism to not completely destroy the country with our bad economic policies.
b) The Actual Left: The party of actual leftism.
3) All those black and hispanics that you were relying on to save the country will keep voting for Democrats, because they aren't actually secret communists.
And the point is that Tim Kaine definitely, and Bill Clinton definitely, and Obama definitely, and Hillary Clinton probably, would all pick the Democrats in that division. And then for the rest of your lifetime, all the people were told every day for 24 straight years by the President of the United States that our economic pathforward is Technocratic Corporate Wealth and Fuck the Little Guy Just Gently Enough That They Don't Revolt, are going to keep voting that way.

> erik wrote:I think the youth vote is too fucking unreliable still and I don't count on them to be proportionally involved in local elections or non-presidential elections, or even presidential elections. They will be courted when they fucking bother to vote. But they'll keep coming and be replacing their conservative forebears that forsook science and evidence as elitism.

Except that all of that is bullshit. The youth vote turns up all the time in local elections and non off year national elections. It's just that it's always the conservative youth vote showing up. I wonder why that is? No I don't, I know why it is, because every two years when actual leftist youth is being told they need to vote for abortion hating, gun loving, corporate welfate giving, tax lowering senators and congresspeople "or else the Republicans win" they just say "Fuck this" and don't vote. It's not because they are just so unreliable, it's because they only reliably vote for the people that actually represent them, which is why a host of purple democrats keep losing to red republicans who do get the youth (conservative) vote.
If you want the youth vote to be reliable, maybe just once ever, the Democrats could actually pretend to represent them, instead of, as Clinton is doing, and Frank is advocating "For some reason when I tell them I'm going to push them into a fire if they don't lick my taint, they don't lick my taint, so why should I pull them out of the fire?"
Then maybe, when the youth vote stops being told how terrible they are for not voting for DINOs instead of republicans, they might actually vote for you if you advocate any kind of economic leftism at all.
Yes, in a perfect world, white youths will vote for the Candidate that isn't racist but is otherwise exactly identical to their challenger, because not doing so prevents Merrick Garland from being appointed to the Supreme Court, but if the Democrats are so fucking evidence based maybe they can respond to the evidence that actually being a candidate that promises tangible differences from your opponent might get people to support you.

> erik wrote:The new normal will be an expectation of healthcare for everyone, presidents who aren't white men, equal treatment for all sexual identities, a decreased sense of religiosity, a strong tolerance of diversity

And also that we must obey our corporate overlords, and we must lower taxes, and that fuck socialism, which is also the old normal, but also the new normal, because it's what every Democrat has told us for the last 16 years, and what Clinton will retell us now that she's hunting the general election for the next 8.
As an admittedly somewhat anecdotal example, The Great Failure of the Youth Vote, 2008-2010, the Democrats lost three House Members in Texas. One of them abstained on Obamacare, was anti-gay, was pro drilling, pro tax breaks for corporations, anti-abortion. One of them who's sole defining characteristics was being Pro Veteran, Pro Homeland Security, and Pro Wall Building To Keep Out Them Immigrants (he was hispanic, so he was a Democrat who wanted to build a wall to keep out the immigrants), and an anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro business, but also pro taxes on rich individuals, and Oh Yeah, He voted against ObamaCare.
Now, all of these had some Democratic positions, but can you really be that mad that they didn't get record youth votes turning out in favor of these "Democrats." Of course they didn't, it's hard to get the energy up to vote for people who refuse to represent you.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:57 pm

I don't know. If local levels continue to pick up Progressive and Socialist leaders, we might see an overturning of the dogma. I realize that I live in a bubble, though. Seattle has actually elected a socialist council member, so the politics around Puget Sound are pretty heavily skewed left.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:27 pm

Hillary's introduction of Tim Kaine is here. She plays up Tim Kaine's social justice work pretty hard. I think the fact that he literally worked as a pro-bono lawyer representing African Americans who were facing housing discrimination is the bit that got him the nod. I mean, that's such a specific fuck-you to Trump that I don't know how you'd top that.
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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:37 pm

http://www.snopes.com/1998-trump-people-quote/
Deep Cuts In A Lovecraftian Vein
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:08 am

Because my FB won't shut up
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/07 ... ment-dump/
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Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:18 am

Oh my god, that's possibly the most blatant "Let's hope no one actually clicks on these links" I've ever seen. The very first one is labeled "DNC member killing horses for insurance money." and links to an email chain that's "Someone asks people to vet a potential donor and the answer comes back 'It's that guy who killed horses for insurance money. Reject him again'"

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:01 am

It's kind of impressive how nothing there is in the email dump. I would have expected someone to have been caught telling racially insensitive jokes or something. Emails were being secretly copied by Russian hacker groups for months and then combed through by Russian intelligence for months with the blatant intention of doing as much damage to the Democratic party as possible.
The thing Hillary bashers are claiming is proof that Hillary pays internet trolls is an email summarizing Fox News Sunday where they note that a Fox News pundit accuses Hillary of paying internet trolls. The thing where dead enders are claiming there's proof that the DNC attacked Bernie Sanders is a set of emails where DNC members wargame possible scenarios in which attacks are made on Bernie Sanders (you know, their actual job).
But what's really weird is how full-on disgusting Wikileaks has gotten. They are doxxing people and straight up admitting that they are doing it on purpose. They are going full antisemitic conspiracy theory on their twitter feed.
Just wow. Any possibility that I would take Wikileaks' side on this or any future issues went out the window. The reason that Wikileaks never seems to have anything on Putin's Russia or far right hate groups is now really clear. Wikileaks is unabashedly an arm of Russian Intelligence whose goal is to undermine the West. Nothing more. There is no noble cause, it's just cheerleading for far right dictatorship. It's not transparency, it's espionage.
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:31 am

normally the Republicans are loyal to the party and fall in line when the collective chooses their champion while Democrats will bicker themselves apart, so it feels quite surprising that Sanders has bent his knee before the Clinton while Cruz is booed out of the RNC.
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Pseudo Stupidity
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Post by Pseudo Stupidity » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:19 pm

The biggest thing out of the email leak is probably that the DNC was pretty tame, but they definitely did express an interest in finding and exploiting avenues of attack against Bernie. There was an exchange about attacking him over that database leak "'Wondering if there’s a good Bernie narrative for a story, which is that Bernie never had his act together, that his campaign was a mess,' Paustenbach wrote.
Miranda spurned the idea, although he agreed with Paustenbach’s take: 'True, but the Chair has been advised not to engage. So we’ll have to leave it alone.'"
They had a bit where they wanted to figure out if Bernie was an atheist so they could attack him with that. They definitely talked about how to hurt Bernie (and expressed a desire to do so), so that's a thing. It's just a tiny and insignificant thing because it doesn't even look like they acted on it.
Last edited by Pseudo Stupidity on Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> sandmann wrote:

> > Zak S wrote:I'm not a dick, I'm really nice.

> > Zak S wrote:(...) once you have decided that you will spend any part of your life trolling on the internet, you forfeit all rights as a human.If you should get hit by a car--no-one should help you. If you vote on anything--your vote should be thrown away.
> > If you wanted to participate in a conversation, you've lost that right. You are a non-human now. You are over and cancelled. No concern of yours can ever matter to any member of the human race ever again.

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erik
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Post by erik » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:02 pm

If anything this leak makes it seem like the DNC is more above the board than one could hope. A political organization had damned well better be discussing and aware of dirty tricks and then to their credit they didn't perform them. Opposition research is a real thing and competent organizations perform it on themselves too.
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Pseudo Stupidity
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Post by Pseudo Stupidity » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:30 pm

That wasn't opposition research though, it was looking for weaknesses and then wanting to attack it. The desire to attack is obviously there with the "we'll have to leave it alone." If you can't see that you're a fucking idiot. Same thing with the atheist bit, they wanted to attack him about it, they weren't talking about the Rs using it.

> sandmann wrote:

> > Zak S wrote:I'm not a dick, I'm really nice.

> > Zak S wrote:(...) once you have decided that you will spend any part of your life trolling on the internet, you forfeit all rights as a human.If you should get hit by a car--no-one should help you. If you vote on anything--your vote should be thrown away.
> > If you wanted to participate in a conversation, you've lost that right. You are a non-human now. You are over and cancelled. No concern of yours can ever matter to any member of the human race ever again.

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erik
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Post by erik » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:33 pm

If you find weaknesses in one candidate there definitely is the temptation to expose those weaknesses during the primary rather than the general. If you can't see that then you're a fucking idiot too. Opposition research goes hand-in-hand with the consideration of using it.
Did you honestly think Republicans weren't going to use any possible attack?
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Pseudo Stupidity
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Post by Pseudo Stupidity » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:00 pm

> erik wrote:If you find weaknesses in one candidate there definitely is the temptation to expose those weaknesses during the primary rather than the general. If you can't see that then you're a fucking idiot too. Opposition research goes hand-in-hand with the consideration of using it.
> Did you honestly think Republicans weren't going to use any possible attack?

White hats don't consider robbing the bank they were hired to hack. DNC officials examining general election weaknesses shouldn't consider attacking the candidate they're looking at. They didn't bring up weaknesses from a "what if the Rs do this" standpoint, they did it from a "let's attack from this angle" standpoint. This is such basic shit I'm amazed that you can't see it. Opposition research usually involves mentioning the opposition and not talking about using attack avenues yourself.

> sandmann wrote:

> > Zak S wrote:I'm not a dick, I'm really nice.

> > Zak S wrote:(...) once you have decided that you will spend any part of your life trolling on the internet, you forfeit all rights as a human.If you should get hit by a car--no-one should help you. If you vote on anything--your vote should be thrown away.
> > If you wanted to participate in a conversation, you've lost that right. You are a non-human now. You are over and cancelled. No concern of yours can ever matter to any member of the human race ever again.

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erik
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Post by erik » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:25 pm

Are these complete dumps or cherry picked emails? Is it possible we are only seeing parts without context? Do we know if opposition is mentioned in other emails or in conversations outside of email?
Bah. I've started reading through wiki leaks and agree it doesn't sound like oppo discussion from what is available, but it definitely isn't the whole conversation either. I dunno if it is hard to navigate through email threads due to being on my phone or if that is just how wiki leaks is.
Edit here is all I found.

> first email wrote:It might may no difference, but for KY and WVA can we get someone to ask his belief. Does he believe in a God. He had skated on saying he has a Jewish heritage. I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.

> 2nd email from same sender replying to self wrote:It's these Jesus thing.

> reply to 2nd email from someone else wrote:AMEN

Considering it never happened that's pretty fuckin thin. Obviously there is more that wasn't posted and it must be anti-damning to not be included since the subject line was "No shit" and how can these dicks pass up sharing emails with obscenity in the header? "No shit" is a bizarre way to start a conversation so again, obviously context is being left out.
I don't expect conversation snippets to have explanations and full references about motivations and acknowledgements of Rs being the true final opponent. Nobody talks with a paragraph of exposition for each sentence.
Last edited by erik on Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Pseudo Stupidity
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Post by Pseudo Stupidity » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:27 pm

I'm not going through all the emails because I just don't care that much, but from the snippets that The Guardian provided (and the commentary that The Guardian provided) it really looks like they were talking about how to best attack Bernie in the primary.
"'Wondering if there’s a good Bernie narrative for a story, which is that Bernie never had his act together, that his campaign was a mess,' Paustenbach wrote.
Miranda spurned the idea, although he agreed with Paustenbach’s take: 'True, but the Chair has been advised not to engage. So we’ll have to leave it alone.'"
You would never talk about engaging (in this context, where you are advised NOT to engage) in a line of attack against a campaign if you were doing opposition research. Those are the words of somebody asking if they could formulate an attack, then being advised against attacking from that angle. What sort of opposition research conversation would contain that exchange?

> sandmann wrote:

> > Zak S wrote:I'm not a dick, I'm really nice.

> > Zak S wrote:(...) once you have decided that you will spend any part of your life trolling on the internet, you forfeit all rights as a human.If you should get hit by a car--no-one should help you. If you vote on anything--your vote should be thrown away.
> > If you wanted to participate in a conversation, you've lost that right. You are a non-human now. You are over and cancelled. No concern of yours can ever matter to any member of the human race ever again.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:45 pm

While it is entirely possible that the discussions that look like people drawing up plans to attack Bernie Sanders were part of larger conversations where they were wargaming various scenarios in which Bernie Sanders was the nominee, they probably weren't and it would be entirely appropriate for them to not be. The DNC email hacks show snippets of conversations that have been selectively edited to anger low-information Bernie supporters, but they don't show the DNC being even a tenth as mean as they had every right to be.
One of the processes of parliamentary politics is the task of "whipping." And yes, it is actually called that. That's where you get members of your party to fall in line and support things the party wants supported and block things the party wants blocked. Whipping is so important to our political process that there are people in congress whose actual job title is "Official Whip." The Democratic Whip is Steny Hoyer, the Republican Whip is Steve Scalise. Whipping is normally done with a series of bribes and threats, and the respective National Committees of the two parties are tasked with backing up both of those things.
The Democratic National Committee is thus tasked with making good on the threats made by party leaders against Democrats who fail to support policies the party regards as important. These threats could be withholding funds, supporting primary opponents, or even straight up attacking the party member in the public sphere. That's their fucking job. That's how the system works.
The fact that the DNC elected to not issue any of the smack downs they discussed in the stolen and cherry picked emails indicates that the DNC treated Bernie Sanders with a much much lighter touch than is the norm for politics. The only thing the emails show is that Hillary supporters in the DNC decided that the best way to support Hillary was to scrupulously avoid attacking Bernie in any way. It would be entirely within the norms of American politics for Central Committee members to be sending emails threatening to set fire to an uncooperative candidate's car. Instead we find emails of DNC members telling each other to lay off Bernie entirely.
What the fuck is the scandal supposed to be? The DNC was nicer to Bernie Sanders than any central committee of any party ever is to an insurgent outsider candidate. That we suddenly have a bunch of leftists believing the opposite because they have been taken in by the rather obvious machinations of hackers working for an anti-American right wing dictatorship is fucking pathetic.
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erik
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Post by erik » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:15 pm

Car fire threat sounds too specific to be hyperbole (and probably isnt within the scope of acceptable actions what with it being illegal). What's the story there?
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Post by MGuy » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:20 pm

As if there needs to be anything really damaging at all for people to get upset over. Benghazi, private server shenanigans, etc have all been a part of the game since the beginning. I've been having arguments with people I know just trying to tell them how Bernie endorsing Clinton after he's lost is not the biggest betrayal ever and is fucking normal. The propaganda against Clinton is strong. I have not seen or heard a positive thing about Hillary at all. Even the taking heads I like ( people like John Oliver and Colbert) are in on the joke.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:03 pm

> erik wrote:Car fire threat sounds too specific to be hyperbole (and probably isnt within the scope of acceptable actions what with it being illegal). What's the story there?

Tom "The Hammer" Delay was the Republican Whip for like eight years. And he issued threats of violence and legal reprisals on sitting judges and reporters on several occasions. I don't know what he threatened members of his caucus with, but his own allies said some of it was pretty bad.
Whips going full mobster is basically the norm. It's how things work in our political system.
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erik
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Post by erik » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:59 pm

I'm not certain the DNC are supposed to fulfill the same role as the whip tho. It does sound like there was intent on some members to violate the impartiality of selection of Presidential nominees (Article 5, Section 4 of the DNC charter).
Section 4. The National Chairperson shall serve full time and shall receive such compensation as may be determined by agreement between the Chairperson and the Democratic National Committee. In the conduct and management of the affairs and procedures of the Democratic National Committee, particularly as they apply to the preparation and conduct of the Presidential nomination process, the Chairperson shall exercise impartiality and evenhandedness as between the Presidential candidates and campaigns. The Chairperson shall be responsible for ensuring that the national officers and staff of the Democratic National Committee maintain impartiality and evenhandedness during the Democratic Party Presidential nominating process.
Buuuuut, given that nothing was done, and these were emails stolen and selected in order to be cast in a damning light without context, it is a fucking spitwad of a smoking gun. It sounds like despite some people wanting to violate the charter, and they got smacked down because the Chair was doing their job enforcing impartiality. If something actually happened then that'd be, well, something. But there's nothing.
Here is the stupid Bernie narrative email:
1. https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/11056
2: https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/14295
Subject: RE: Bernie narrative
True, but the Chair has been advised to not engage.
So we'll have to leave it alone.
________________________________
Subject: Bernie narrative
Wondering if there's a good Bernie narrative for a story, which is that Bernie never ever had his act together, that his campaign was a mess.
Specifically, DWS had to call Bernie directly in order to get the campaign to do things because they'd either ignored or forgotten to something critical.
She had to call Bernie after the data breach to make his staff to respond to our concerns. Even then they didn't get back to us, which is why we had to shut off their access in order to get them to finally let us know exactly how they snooped around HFA's data.
Same was true with the standing committee appointments. They never got back to us with their names (HFA and even O'Malley got there's in six weeks earlier) for the committees. So, again, the chair had to call Bernie personally for his staff to finally get us critical information. So, they gave us an awful list just a few days before we had to make the announcements.
It's not a DNC conspiracy, it's because they never had their act together.
Some DNC members were pissed because they're getting blamed for mismanagement of Bernie's campaign and being completely baited. Some wanted to put the blame publicly back on Sander's campaign. That doesn't sound unreasonable. But STILL the Chair shut it down.
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SlyJohnny
  Duke
  Posts: 1418
  Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:35 pm

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Post by SlyJohnny » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:19 am

> FrankTrollman wrote: What the fuck is the scandal supposed to be? The DNC was nicer to Bernie Sanders than any central committee of any party ever is to an insurgent outsider candidate. That we suddenly have a bunch of leftists believing the opposite because they have been taken in by the rather obvious machinations of hackers working for an anti-American right wing dictatorship is fucking pathetic.
> -Username17

I'm getting really tired of this fucking "BERNIE ARE NOT REAL DEMOCRAT! GO AWAY AND MAKE OWN PARTY, BERNIEBOTS (but only after this election because please cast your vote for Hillary in this one kthx)" narrative.
The progressive wing of the party has every right to try to move the party dialogue more towards the issues that affect them, the democrat party leadership has admitted it's at fault publicly at the DNC already, but slackjawed apologists like you are still trying to make out like a concerted attempt to disenfranchise people is no big deal and both apology and resignation were unnecessary. You're probably one of the same assholes that spent this entire political season talking about how accusations of bias were unfounded, and now that incontrovertible proof has been found, suddenly you want to move the goal posts and claim that it was "obvious all along", but unimportant.
You've already decided that facts are irrelevant and you should instead be able to replace them with whatever ridiculous, exaggerated narrative fits your existing biases if you can just talk long enough about it, and now you're blaming any dissent on the intervention of foreign intelligence agencies and their clever plan to destroy truth and democracy by whistleblowing. Are you going to come full circle and start calling people who can't bring themselves to vote for Hillary after this "traitors"? Jesus christ.
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:25 am

> SlyJohnny wrote:Are you going to come full circle and start calling people who can't bring themselves to vote for Hillary after this "traitors"? Jesus christ.

That is not a future event. That is a past event.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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DSMatticus
  King
  Posts: 5271
  Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:32 am

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Post by DSMatticus » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:07 am

To be perfectly clear, the final estimates suggest that Bernie was the net winner of the Democratic primary's undemocratic bullshit by the slimmest of margins (i.e. he gained more from caucuses than he lost from the exclusion of Democratic-leaning independents in certain states), and the leaked emails reveal that the DNC refused to confront the Sanders campaign over legitimate misconduct (i.e. accessing the private contact information of Clinton delegates, amongst other things). There are a lot of things to bitch about with respect to the Democratic primary, but with everything said and done Sanders walked away with slightly more delegates than he deserved and that despite being deliberately difficult to work with the DNC treated him with kiddy gloves - presumably because they were afraid giving him a hard time would cause more backlash than it was worth.
And this is coming from someone who has been arguing with Frank this entire fucking primary. SlyJohnny, you're just fucking dumb, and are easily hoodwinked by misleading article titles while simultaneously being too fucking lazy to read the source material and form your own conclusions. There's basically nothing anyone is ever going to put forward that makes the DNC and Hillary Clinton look worse than the RNC and the parade of nightmares they called their presidential candidates.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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