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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:09 pm

> ...You Lost Me wrote:The wizard gets 3 spells. He can make them all color spray or he can make them 2 color spray and 1 sleep or whatever.

The Wizard gets between 4 or 5 spells, because he's a goddam Grey Elf with 20 Int and the stupid Elf Generalist level, or he's a Focused Specialist or whatever.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:But in a standard day, the wizard's going to have 3-4 fights, and he needs to ration his spells so he probably only use one color spray. That has a decent chance of winning the fight on its own, but if it doesn't the wizard gets to resort to crossbows and cantrips.

Yes that is what I said. Did you read what I said? I said that.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:The kaelik wizard gets 6 1st-level spells. Amongst those will be color spray, which he can use once per encounter (hard limit instead of soft limit), and also sleep and grease and expeditious retreat and 2 other spells he doesn't care about. In a fight, he's got the wizard's chance of taking out enemies with color spray, and doesn't get to spam it but can instead resort to sleep the next round and grease the round after that and if things are going badly he walks away at twice their speed and can prepare again. Also he has permanent mage armor. That feels like much, much more in the adventuring day.

The difference between instantly winning the encounter 60% of the time and sometimes having a 20% chance to do clean up after the rest of your party has gone and usually there are no threats left is not a big fucking deal. Also I have no idea why you are using expeditious retreat to run away and leave your party, if things are bad enough that everyone has to run, you are better with casting it on some slow idiot, and I have no idea how you could go through 3 rounds of combat and still feel threatened enough to run away yourself but let your party finish it.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:39 am

If the wizard goes 20 Int, and is a specialist in illusion/enchantment, then he gets 4 per day (1 normal, 2 stat, 1 specialist). If he's any other specialty and/or any non-int race, he has 2-3. And I am repeating these things slowly for you because you seem to be confused about something, and I'm still not sure what.
I don't understand how you go from "2 AoE SoL spells" to "can only clean up". Without even talking about how the kaelik wizard gets more spells in a given day because you have several encounters, or his permanent buff, or his greater flexibility in and out of combat, he can still drop 2 attack spells in a fight while the regular wizard can drop 1.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:24 am

> ...You Lost Me wrote:If the wizard goes 20 Int, and is a specialist in illusion/enchantment, then he gets 4 per day (1 normal, 2 stat, 1 specialist). If he's any other specialty and/or any non-int race, he has 2-3. And I am repeating these things slowly for you because you seem to be confused about something, and I'm still not sure what.

If you have 20 int you can have 4 by being an elven generalist. You can have 5 by getting a domain. You can have 4 with just the domain if you happen to be not an elf. You can also have 5 by being a Focused Specialist.
If for some goddawful reason you can't get 20 int because you live in the shitty world of people who roll for fucking stats, you can be a focused specialist Illusionist, still have 4, and then commit seppuku at level 5 to be replaced by your brother, because apparently your group is into darwinian selection.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:I don't understand how you go from "2 AoE SoL spells" to "can only clean up". Without even talking about how the kaelik wizard gets more spells in a given day because you have several encounters, or his permanent buff, or his greater flexibility in and out of combat, he can still drop 2 attack spells in a fight while the regular wizard can drop 1.

Let me present you an example. Let's say, that you were playing League of Legends, but through some kind of bug, Nasus starts the game off with 1000 stacks instead of 0. Then let's say that someone figures out some weird shit to do in the mastery tree so that they can start off with Nasus with 2000 stacks.
Is the second nasus stronger? Of course he is. Does it matter in the slightest? Not at all. You can kill anyone in the game with one q at level 1, you can zone a lane and take their buff at level 1. The extra 2000 stacks are useful in that even going into the late game you will be able to one shot them longer. But who cares.
Similarly, with these characters, if you Color Spray a fight, and then your entire team gets to go, and kill all the people who made their save, then your clean up spell is still clean up, because there might be like one guy.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:50 am

What if enemies have something that stops one spell or the other? Or what if they're not grouped so you only have the chance of getting a couple? I am really not comfortable with making one class significantly better than the other because in a straight fight under normal adventuring conditions they will only have a a noticeable advantage if you ignore their host of other advantages.
I am definitely not getting your math on spell slots. If you're a gray elf generalist and put an 18 in Int, you get 2 from stats and 1 from class. If you're a domain wizard or specialist, you get 1 more. If you're a focused specialist, you get 2 more and you're also sticking to illusion spells from now on or rolling a new character later. Perhaps my problem is that I don't often play gray elf, 18 Int wizards specialized for casting a single illusion spell that will be useful until level 3. If that's a standard in your games, I guess the disparity would be smaller.
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Post by Orion » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:16 am

Look, if you think it has too many spells at level 1, the solution is really not hard: give it fewer spells at level 1.
Start them with 3 spells, and add 1 at 3/5/7 or 2/3/4 as you prefer. Boom.
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Post by Red_Rob » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:33 am

To be honest the PHB paradigm where a wizard has 2 or 3 spells at level 1 and umpteenmillion spells at level 15 never really worked. Are adventuring days meant to be ten times as long at level 15? It just made daily spell selection and buff tracking an accounting nightmare past level 10.
A reasonable assortment of level appropriate spells should be roughly the same at level 2 or level 12. The fact that you only learn 2 spells on level up means that most of the time you won't be able to load up all 6 slots with your highest spell level immediately. The only real exception to this is at level 1 due to the free spells you get with your initial spellbook. This does mean the class gets a sizeable boost in power and versatility at level 1 compared to other levels, and might warrant some special consideration regarding reduced spell slots to start with.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:30 pm

> ...You Lost Me wrote:What if enemies have something that stops one spell or the other? Or what if they're not grouped so you only have the chance of getting a couple? I am really not comfortable with making one class significantly better than the other because in a straight fight under normal adventuring conditions they will only have a a noticeable advantage if you ignore their host of other advantages.

I'm really not that comfortable making a class that either wins the fight on the first round or goes and sits in a corner for the rest of the fight. If a class has access to color spray, it will always be facing that first option, so the only thing I can do is make it not go sit in the corner like a bitch afterword. Level 1 D&D&YD&D&&D&D&D&D&D&D is fucking stupid as shit and you are stupid as shit for trying to balance characters at that point.
If the enemies are spread out then the fucking PHB fighter kills one per round until you win because it is level fucking 1, and it is garbage.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:I am definitely not getting your math on spell slots. If you're a gray elf generalist and put an 18 in Int, you get 2 from stats and 1 from class. If you're a domain wizard or specialist, you get 1 more. If you're a focused specialist, you get 2 more and you're also sticking to illusion spells from now on or rolling a new character later. Perhaps my problem is that I don't often play gray elf, 18 Int wizards specialized for casting a single illusion spell that will be useful until level 3. If that's a standard in your games, I guess the disparity would be smaller.

For fucks sake, look up the Elven Generalist substitution level.
Yes, if you start the game at level 1 and take Focused Illusionist, you are sticking to color spray at 1-2, and from 3-4 you are sticking to Color Spray and Glitterdust. And then you roll a new fucking character who gives a shit, because if you are playing with the kind of idiots who actually fucking start at level 1, then you are probably never going to get past level 5, which hey, is what you said happens to you anyway so who cares. Just be a Focused Specialist Wizard since you never get past level 4.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
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Reynard
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Post by Reynard » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:46 pm

Just a nitpick: unless your rule-lawyering skills are top-notch, it's unlikely GM will let you take both Domain Wizard and Elf Generalist. Wizard hardly needs a boost and those two options are obviously designed to be Specialization alternatives.
Focused Specialist is the only reliable way to get 5 spells per day as a 1st level Wizard.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:50 pm

> Reynard wrote:Just a nitpick: unless your rule-lawyering skills are top-notch, it's unlikely GM will let you take both Domain Wizard and Elf Generalist. Wizard hardly needs a boost and those two options are obviously designed to be Specialization alternatives.
> Focused Specialist is the only reliable way to get 5 spells per day as a 1st level Wizard.

I have no idea what it is like to play with a DM who wants to start at level 1 and wants the Wizard to sit in a corner crying half the time. So sure, they could totally ban all sorts of things that might make their players have more fun, for fucks sake, they started the game at level 1, so obviously they hate their players, for all I know they ban Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and Rogues, and tell everyone to choose between Monks, Fighters, and Barbarians.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:58 pm

Man, this example came from level 1 because it was easy, not because it's super exclusive to level 1. It's also a problem at level 2-4 (we already had a level 3 example), and I think it can remain a problem up until ~3 unless you are comparing the kaelik wizard to a mister gc-style wizard who knows every option and always picks optimally and has perfect stats.
If people who frequent this forum are not up to speed enough to memorize the 3 obscure ACF/variant wizards that give an appropriate power boost, how do you seriously expect that to be the norm at a table?
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:26 pm

> ...You Lost Me wrote:Man, this example came from level 1 because it was easy, not because it's super exclusive to level 1. It's also a problem at level 2-4 (we already had a level 3 example), and I think it can remain a problem up until ~3 unless you are comparing the kaelik wizard to a mister gc-style wizard who knows every option and always picks optimally and has perfect stats.

The "Problem" you describe actually mostly goes away at level 3. At level 3 a Wizard can have between 3-5 Glitterdusts and 3-5 Color Sprays. That means they can use two encounter ending spells each encounter, and since after two rounds, the fights will be somewhere between basically and completely over, any leftover kickassery from the Kaelik Wizard is minimized.
But yes, the problem that low level 3.5 D&D is shit stops being a problem outside of low level.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:If people who frequent this forum are not up to speed enough to memorize the 3 obscure ACF/variant wizards that give an appropriate power boost, how do you seriously expect that to be the norm at a table?

1) The people who frequent this forum do know the acfs. They also know to look up stuff before making a character. They also know not to play at level 1.
2) I expect that to be the "norm at the table" because I expect only people who play fucking Tome games are going to use this class. I also expect the "norm at the table" to be starting after level 1, because level 1 is garbage.
3) Go post in the fucking Races of War thread about how the Tome Fighter isn't balanced with the PHB fighter. This class isn't supposed to do exactly what a fucking Wizard does at all levels, because then I wouldn't need to fucking write a class. This is much simpler than a 3.5 Wizard, sure, but that isn't the only purpose. For fucks sake, if one of the incidental changes that this class fixes the stupid problem that Wizards at level 1 are fucking dumb as shit, that is fine by me.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:47 am

Are you trolling me, or do you actually expect people to play wizards that prepare a bunch of copies of identical spells with nothing to supplement them in the way of alternate tactics or things that are useful outside combat? This is an honest question, because if you're trolling just to end the conversation you can just ask me to stop criticizing. But if you honestly do think that the average wizard is going to put their 5 level 1's in color spray and their 4 level 2's in glitterdust and literally nothing else, your version D&D is something that makes no damn sense. The Kaelik Wizard will get whatever level 3 spells the regular wizard gets, but in every fight and all day long and on top of anything else they feel like casting given 15 minutes downtime.
In response to your no true scotsman: I am a person who frequents this forum. I only knew 1 of the methods of getting extra spells that you listed, and when I play wizards (Tome or not, DM or not) I do not look up ACFs to make them. I also play at level 1, and usually up to 5. What a wonderful census we have taken.
Tome material is designed to hang around the level of balance of a wizard. If you have a class that is stronger than the wizard, that's not the same as a class that's stronger than the fighter, because the level of balance of a fighter isn't the same as that of a wizard. I assumed you understood this, but I guess I can go over it slowly if you need help.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Post by Dean » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:00 am

I feel like the mandate that metamagics with offset costs don't function with the K-Wizard is unnecessary and pointless. I think you should chuck that. The only way I've ever heard to make blasting wizards work is to use some method or another to boost your spells with metamagics and it's a shame to cut that off over a fear of free Persist buffs or whatever. If someone wants to build a DMM Persist Cleric or something they can just do that, anyone building a K-Wizard is just desiring a simpler version of the Wizard class and that either means they don't have the system mastery to abuse free metamagics so there's nothing to worry about, or it's someone with such high system mastery that they're on the Den using homebrew classes and if they wanted to abuse free metamagics to break the game they could have done so with a more impressive class.
I also think you might want to include some way to be a specialist wizard. Even if it's just restricted spells with no benefit there might be things you want that require specialization as a prereq that would make it worthwhile and would make the class connect better into the written wizard prestige classes.

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:51 am

> Dean wrote:I feel like the mandate that metamagics with offset costs don't function with the K-Wizard is unnecessary and pointless. I think you should chuck that. The only way I've ever heard to make blasting wizards work is to use some method or another to boost your spells with metamagics and it's a shame to cut that off over a fear of free Persist buffs or whatever. If someone wants to build a DMM Persist Cleric or something they can just do that, anyone building a K-Wizard is just desiring a simpler version of the Wizard class and that either means they don't have the system mastery to abuse free metamagics so there's nothing to worry about, or it's someone with such high system mastery that they're on the Den using homebrew classes and if they wanted to abuse free metamagics to break the game they could have done so with a more impressive class.
> I also think you might want to include some way to be a specialist wizard. Even if it's just restricted spells with no benefit there might be things you want that require specialization as a prereq that would make it worthwhile and would make the class connect better into the written wizard prestige classes.

I use Alpha's metamagic, so your point is incorrect. No one needs free metamagic bullshit on this class.
But you are probably right about the specialization, and I could even give them a 7th slot that can only be used for that, since they are giving up so much (one entire school, and having one of their level up picks limited every level) and the 7th slot is so very minor.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:56 am

> ...You Lost Me wrote:Are you trolling me, or do you actually expect people to play wizards that prepare a bunch of copies of identical spells with nothing to supplement them in the way of alternate tactics or things that are useful outside combat?

At level 1, when the alternative is to sit there doing nothing for entire combats? Yes. I expect them to play in a way that allows them to contribute when they are fighting.
If only there were some kind of way to make it so they could also have other spells in addition to contributing in combat. If only.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:The Kaelik Wizard will get whatever level 3 spells the regular wizard gets, but in every fight and all day long and on top of anything else they feel like casting given 15 minutes downtime.

And it would really suck if the Wizard could both contribute to combat, and also have outside of combat utility. And I definitely haven't designed literally every class I've ever made to do that while criticizing the Tome Fighter for not doing that.
For fucks sake here you go:
1) Have the Kaelik Wizard be able to cast the spell Color Spray.
2) Have the Kaelik Wizard not spend an entire combat or more sitting in the corner playing smashbrothers.
3) Have the Kaelik Wizard have anything to do outside of combat.
4) Have the Kaelik Wizard be exactly the same as the Wizard at level 1.
Pick three of those. You can only have three. You can have any three you want, but you can only have three. HINT: Get rid of number 4 because it is garbage that doesn't add anything to the game.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:In response to your no true scotsman: I am a person who frequents this forum. I only knew 1 of the methods of getting extra spells that you listed, and when I play wizards (Tome or not, DM or not) I do not look up ACFs to make them. I also play at level 1, and usually up to 5. What a wonderful census we have taken.

Occluded Sun and ISP post on this forum. We are still Commies.
You asked me what I was thinking designing the class, part of what I was thinking is that I'm not fucking designing the goddam class for people to play Level 1 Only Final Destination. If you do, you can either not play this class, or just invoke the special You Lost Me Rule, where once per day the Kaelik Wizard player has to leave the room for a combat and his character hides in the corner while the real manly men win the fight, because things need to be balanced against Core classes goddam it. And then, when your party gets to level 13 they can Planar Bind and Wish for a Ring of Wishes, because everything needs to be balanced with Core goddam it.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:Tome material is designed to hang around the level of balance of a wizard. If you have a class that is stronger than the wizard, that's not the same as a class that's stronger than the fighter, because the level of balance of a fighter isn't the same as that of a wizard. I assumed you understood this, but I guess I can go over it slowly if you need help.

Here is a list of objective power ups for the Wizard at all levels.
It doesn't matter if that was what the Tomes were designed around, because they don't do that. They give Wizards shadow armies for a feat, people make metamagic feats all the time. And the Races of War classes break the RNG so hard that it ceases to exist. Nor frankly, were the Tomes designed to balance everything at level 1 with Wizards, because in fact, Frank has said on multiple occasions something to effect that:
At level 1, everyone is equal because the Wizard can AoE save or die, and the Fighter can kill one person a round, so we made that true at higher levels too. Now obviously, the Tome Fighter is more powerful at level 1 than the PHB fighter, so based on that same fucking logic, the Core Wizard needs a buff at level 1.
Seriously, I cannot stress this enough:
PICK THREE:
1) Have the Kaelik Wizard be able to cast the spell Color Spray.
2) Have the Kaelik Wizard not spend an entire combat or more sitting in the corner playing smashbrothers.
3) Have the Kaelik Wizard have anything to do outside of combat.
4) Have the Kaelik Wizard be exactly the same as the Wizard at level 1.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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Post by Dean » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:13 am

> Kaelik wrote:I use Alpha's metamagic, so your point is incorrect. No one needs free metamagic bullshit on this class.

What is Alpha's metamagic?

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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Post by TarkisFlux » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:22 am

Dean, regular blasters need metamagic to make their blasting spells not a waste of prep time. A K-Wiz has a completely different opportunity cost arrangement with his spell slots. Regular level 5 wizard prepping fireball to cast once is kind of ass for obvious reasons. K-Wiz prepping fireball is a bit less ass, because they can cast it something like 40 times a day or fucking replace it if you change your mind. Blasting is still a non-ideal strategy overall, but it doesn't hurt in the same way. Even Fireball is a decent round-2 cleanup spell when you can do it more-or-less all day long.
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:25 am

> TarkisFlux wrote:Dean, regular blasters need metamagic to make their blasting spells not a waste of prep time. A K-Wiz has a completely different opportunity cost arrangement with his spell slots. Regular level 5 wizard prepping fireball to cast once is kind of ass for obvious reasons. K-Wiz prepping fireball is a bit less ass, because they can cast it something like 40 times a day or fucking replace it if you change your mind. Blasting is still a non-ideal strategy overall, but it doesn't hurt in the same way. Even Fireball is a decent round-2 cleanup spell when you can do it more-or-less all day long.

It would be very difficult to do it 40 times a day, since you would have to be in 40 combats more than 15 minutes apart.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
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Post by Dean » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:51 am

I think that K-Wizards would also need metamagics on their blasting to make it worth their time. Regardless of resource cost their is also the opportunity cost of 1 rounds worth of actions. 3E's Hp totals VS blast damage will still make that a poor trade.
Seriously though what's Alpha metamagic?

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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Post by TarkisFlux » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:02 am

> Dean wrote:I think that K-Wizards would also need metamagics on their blasting to make it worth their time. Regardless of resource cost their is also the opportunity cost of 1 rounds worth of actions. 3E's Hp totals VS blast damage will still make that a poor trade.

You're playing a game with a bunch of tome classes that deal reasonably hit point damage. The ability to stack with their contributions to push people over critical existence failure is a decent feature in this case, even if you're unlikely to one-shot things with your blasting. They don't win fights on their own, they shave time off of cleanup or set up your party members to win fights. Maybe non-ideal like I said, but much less ass and certainly not the sort of thing that needs free metamagic to be worth considering.

> Dean wrote:Seriously though what's Alpha metamagic?

Kaelik incorporated them into his errata project here.
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:23 am

> Kaelik wrote:For fucks sake here you go:
> 1) Have the Kaelik Wizard be able to cast the spell Color Spray.
> 2) Have the Kaelik Wizard not spend an entire combat or more sitting in the corner playing smashbrothers.
> 3) Have the Kaelik Wizard have anything to do outside of combat.
> 4) Have the Kaelik Wizard be exactly the same as the Wizard at level 1.

> Kaelik wrote:You asked me what I was thinking designing the class, part of what I was thinking is that I'm not fucking designing the goddam class for people to play Level 1 Only Final Destination. If you do, you can either not play this class, or just invoke the special You Lost Me Rule, where once per day the Kaelik Wizard player has to leave the room for a combat and his character hides in the corner while the real manly men win the fight, because things need to be balanced against Core classes goddam it. And then, when your party gets to level 13 they can Planar Bind and Wish for a Ring of Wishes, because everything needs to be balanced with Core goddam it.

I think you confused yourself during your subtle goalpost-switching. Let me go through my point carefully for you.
There is a base class called the wizard. Said base class is about at the power level of most classes designed on this board, and can be used as a fairly decent standard when comparing classes to where they should be. This does not mean that other classes must be identical, but they should have a similar capacity to contribute to an adventure.
So let me reiterate. You do not need to make a copy of the wizard to perform measurably similar to the wizard. You do not need that. In case you missed it, let me copy that one more time:
You do not need to make a copy of the wizard to perform measurably similar to the wizard.
Now that we finally have that out of the way, let me write the next part: If [a class] outperforms [another class used as a benchmark] in basically every way for a significant portion of the game, that is not a good class.
Now let's do some mad libs fill-in-the-blank! Try the following.

- [a class] = Kaelik Wizard
- [another class used as a benchmark] = the wizard everybody else uses

[quote="Kaelik]Occluded Sun Kaelik and ISP Mr. GC post on this forum. We are still Commies not exhaustively optimizing for a single combat trick to the exclusion of everything else.[/quote]
k

> Kaelik wrote:Here is a list of objective power ups for the Wizard at all levels.

> Kaelik, like 3 days wrote:I'll be honest, if you version of "Tome Feats" that are relevant to a conversation include any feat that scales based on anything made anywhere and posted anywhere, you might want to just not have that conversation. Because I'll just start making up feats that prove you wrong. I will make up a feat that adds +3 million damage but says you can't take that feat you just made up, and then say how no one will ever take yours.

> At level 1, everyone is equal because the Wizard can AoE save or die, and the Fighter can kill one person a round, so we made that true at higher levels too. Now obviously, the Tome Fighter is more powerful at level 1 than the PHB fighter, so based on that same fucking logic, the Core Wizard needs a buff at level 1.

This is not a problem for me. The problem I have is how you go from that to giving the kaelik wizard twice as many level-appropriate SoL's per encounter than the regular wizard, and then extra floating spells, and then a permabuff on top of that, and crazy flexibility.
But all that aside, I will offer this class in a one-shot on Saturday. There is no guarantee it will be picked, it will be level 1, but if you can dry your tears I'll get feedback from the group and post it here.
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:28 am, edited 4 times in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:34 am

> ...You Lost Me wrote:I think you confused yourself during your subtle goalpost-switching. Let me go through my point carefully for you.

I think you confused yourself in your eternal quest for having one person in the group stand in the corner doing nothing.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:There is a base class called the wizard. Said base class is about at the power level of most classes designed on this board except from level 1-4 where it isn't, and can be used as a fairly decent standard when comparing classes to where they should be except from level 1-4 where it isn't. This does not mean that other classes must be identical, but they should have a similar capacity to contribute to an adventure except from level 1-4 where they shouldn't.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:Now that we finally have that out of the way, let me write the next part: If [a class] outperforms [another class used as a benchmark] in basically every way for a significant portion of the game, that is not a good class. Unless of course, that class isn't considered a benchmark at those levels, in which case I am full of shit.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:47 am

So you honestly do think that the wizard throwing one or two encounter-ending spells per fight plus one magic missile or weaker spell after that is bad and not worth measuring up to. I can't argue with that kind of crazy, but I'm glad you've at least settled on a coherent reason to not change the class.
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:26 am

> ...You Lost Me wrote:So you honestly do think that the wizard throwing one or two encounter-ending spells per fight plus one magic missile or weaker spell after that is bad and not worth measuring up to. I can't argue with that kind of crazy, but I'm glad you've at least settled on a coherent reason to not change the class.

I settled on the exact reason I gave in the very first fucking post addressing the point.
Also you are fucking goddam idiot liar. You apparently think a Wizard gets 3 spells a day, and then casually suggest that he casts 3 spells per encounter?
What the fuckity fuck fuck is that? If the Wizard was throwing out one or two encounter ending spells per fight plus a magic missile to clean up, that would be the goddam Kaelik Wizard that you are bitching about so much.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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...You Lost Me
  Duke
  Posts: 1854
  Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:21 am

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Post by ...You Lost Me » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:28 pm

This was your original argument.

> Kaelik wrote:But here, how about this: A level 1 Kaelik Wizard is only slightly stronger than a level 1 Wizard

Saying the kaelik wizard is only slightly stronger so the discrepancy can be ignored is not the same as saying the kaelik wizard is definitely stronger and that the discrepancy is intentional.
Kaelik, magic missile is a cantrip. It is a cleanup spell. The wizard gets 3 or 4 a day. The reason I didn't bother bringing that up was because it was tiny compared to the kaelik wizard's extra AoE SoL.
And the "encounter ending spells" came from your own post when you said wizards should prepare 5 copies of spray and dust so they could use one each per encounter. It's still outshined by the kaelik wizard's SoLs (which he gets on top of two permabuffs and 4 extra slots and enormous flexibility), but it's not like the wizard gets to spend his turns doing nothing. I mean, I know your goalposts are quantum and all, but you just wrote that a day ago. Can you pretend you're paying attention?
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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