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## Building an 8th lvl Gestalt in a lowered WBL & magic setting

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Judging__Eagle
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### Building an 8th lvl Gestalt in a lowered WBL & magic setting

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:34 pm

For the 27th I'm going to be playing an 8th level Gestalt character in a somewhat evil campaign.
Right now these are the house rules that I know about it:
http://ryersongameworld.wikidot.com/house-rules
Other things that I know:
[*]Disable Device >= Open Lock; thanks to Frank & Kieth for that.
[*]Level 8
[*]No magical gear, 3,000 gp in mundane (instead of the 27k that WBL dictates U_U, w/e)
[*]28 Point Buy
copypasta'd here:

> House Rules wrote: *This is a Gestalted Campaign
> *No cross-classing [no multi-classing]
> *Instead of spending XP for a magic item, a player may quest for a specific rare item at the DM's discretion that will subsitute the XP loss. For more mundane magic items there may simply be an increase in the cost.
> Characters can sacrifice creatures in order to void the inherent XP loss of Magic Item creation. This can also be done for the spell Miracle/Wish should the 5000 XP loss be required. Normally any sentient being sacrificed substitutes one hundred XP loss for each Hit Die the sacrifice had. Certain special NPCs may give bonus XP, for example a Cleric or a Paladin of a rival God, or an important NPC such as a King would garner far more XP than a commoner with the same Hit Dice.
> *All sacrifices require a sacrificial altar. The details of all sacrifices require a knowledge religion check.
> If a character gains a permanent INT increase their skill points can be retroactively added in the same way that CON increases affect HP.
> The level loss acquired from a Resurrection can be undone by a DM determined quest. This quest should benefit the Church of the God (or the God directly) who granted the Resurrection, or God/Church of the person resurrected.

Right now.... some sort of item crafting cleric/druid Elf might be stupid good.
I'm contemplating getting some sort of alternate form shapechange feat and get Tauric creatures <_<, b/c I've got my own hard copy of MM2, and I recall Tauric being stupid.
The potential to either go barbarian/wizard and play a grapple wizard who has both full BaB, 12 hp/level has its appeal as well.
Really there's a lot of options....
Pactbinder might even work, or Warlock/Wizard simply to be able to make anything at level 12.
I ... may contemplate making my character simply re-write themselves by getting a ritual cast on themselves while alive out of some sort of magic item (and to make it evil, the user has to pay Constitution to use it; say 2 pts per levels being changed? and there's no way to do a partial change; meaning you can change at higher levels, but you might die, and will need a level saving True Ressurection.
... just a thought on how to stymie having to make a proper decision.
Ultimately, this game needs to be examined in terms of bisection. Magic items are the 1/2 way point between obviously winning, and obviously losing in this campaign.
Spell scrolls are completely gimped in this system.
Primary Question
Recommendations for which Caster/Caster combo will work long term?
Cleric/Druid looks pretty OP, but Archivist/Wizard can get me wider spell access. I'm considering making this character a Master of Snake Mountain in the future, or some other "overlord" style character. The GM has spelled out that the PCs are expected to take over this "dying" world they're living in.
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wotmaniac
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Post by wotmaniac » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:08 am

I was thinking wizard/psion; but those work to.
And then there's my default answer of the Holy Gestalt Trinity: wizard/factotum/warblade -- pick 2. Apparently, in your case, it would be the first 2 ... after lvl 8, PrC out of factotum, in to Chameleon (using that floating bonus feat to get whatever crafting you might need).
Last edited by wotmaniac on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Archmage
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Post by Archmage » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:23 am

Wizard/Factotum is cool, I'll second that. The Factotum half doesn't do anything interesting itself, it just adds all skills to your list and makes you better at wizarding, lets you add INT to more stuff, inspiration points give you arbitrary bonuses to rolls when you need them,and extra standard actions let you really unload on people when warranted. You technically get some extra factotum spellcasting and junk, but you mostly don't care.
I would play that over Caster/Caster hybrid unless you are desperately trying to get the world's biggest spell list for crafting and downtime, because action economy is going to mean that in any singular encounter you aren't going to get to do much with your giant list of prepared spells (though your list of available options will be huge, only a small number of them are likely going to be worthwhile).

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Juton
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Post by Juton » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:48 am

While not a caster per se, have you considered a Warblade? The Warblades strengths covers the Wizard's weaknesses and you will never run out of maneuvers to use on pop corn encounters.
Oh thank God, finally a thread about how Fighters in D&D suck. This was a long time coming. - Schwarzkopf
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Whatever
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Post by Whatever » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:53 am

Don't focus so much on trying to get magic items when the DM has some kind of crazy antipathy for them. Getting a +2 sword for your character is going to involve so much crazy that you just don't want to even try. Be a Cleric, cast Extended Greater Magic Weapon every day, done. Then turn into a bear.
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Vebyast
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Post by Vebyast » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:12 am

Another idea: if the DM is really capable of pulling off low-magic NPCs, then you may be able to play effectively using builds that are extremely effective against mundanes but not usually seen because they're hard-countered by magic. For example, you might have fun with a mounted charge or hulking hurler build.
Also, wildshape plus anything is hilarious, particularly since you can build toward forms that synergize well with your gestalted "anything". Warblade phase spider. Darktentacles grapplemancer. Sneak attacks with SLAs. Go nuts.
Last edited by Vebyast on Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:58 am

Psion is a bust; I was considering it myself.
The deal with item crafting is that the DM is fine with us making them; but not with us looting them, or buying them, or just 'having' them.
Their... rather abusable crafting rules seem to indicate to me that I should play a Something that can planar bind; and then rend down individually summoned monsters for their delicious XPs.
and use that to craft magic items for the party to use; while insisting that they
1) Only subdue enemies, b/c dead enemies can be made into items.
2) Enemies that will not convert to our cause, I turn into itamz!
Ok, that is now an incredibly evil character.
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Korgan0
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Post by Korgan0 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:06 am

Maybe he has a vision of the future where the wonderful, wonderful power of magic items allows for a new utopian world where magic items do all the work for everyone, and he's willing to get there no matter the cost.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:18 am

Actually, I was thinking of being a charlatan with magic items; and convert people to a unified church as the planet is slowly in the midst of some sort of Ragnarok.
Using magic items to make technology probably won't fly; but there is a lot of potential for +1 Ploughs and Scythes; or being able to place a healing slab in the middle of a village for people to not worry about major injuries or diseases.
Elysium, on earth, as it were.
Apparetly there's a "myth" where the first of the existing gods to raise a "true" god from within their faction gets to 'win' this campaign.
I'm tempted to lesser planar bind an army of Quell (LM; can stack +1 virtual cleric levels with other Quell; and can interdict clerics divine magic as a turning check)... and hunt the gods for their Titanizing/ Quickening/Collosusization; after suppressing their power.
Obviously, becoming the next patron of undead?
The problem is that Quell want to kill gods. D:
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:12 am

update, I've done some research on the Factotum, to try and learn the class, and parse out what I cloud go with the build.
With 6 + Int mod; and Grey Elf's +2 Int, and +2 to int from levels, that's 18, 20, 22 before items or buffs, and a +6 bonus; 12 skills at +11 is quite a decent set of options.
Online source for the class
http://dndtools.eu/classes/factotum/
TGD notes I've found:
Prak asking questions, getting answers
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=69770
Font of Inspiration is the worst designed feat in D&D
Jacob_Orlove
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=31791
[and I necro the thread]
Same-Game Testing: Rogue v. Factotum
For Valor
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=161659
Some BG notes
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards ... pic=2720.0
WoTC stuff I need to relook
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:06 am

Ok, so, Chameleon, an other prestige class that I've been interested in the past.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b
And, a link to Able Learner
http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feat ... le_Learner
I hope I can convince the DM that Able Learner makes non-class skills count as class skills for maximum ranks allowed; b/c right now Able Learner does nothing in games where "cross class skills set your skill points on fire" has been resolved with Tomes information.
So, Archivist 8//Factotum 5/Chameleon 3 would be how it looks.
I'm tempted to make the Factotum side a Roland, Bear of the North, build b/c that also uses Chameleon; but making this character sounds pretty good too.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:53 pm

> Judging__Eagle wrote: And, a link to Able Learner
> http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feat ... le_Learner
> I hope I can convince the DM that Able Learner makes non-class skills count as class skills for maximum ranks allowed

Why would it do that? It says right in the feat: "The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same."
It's pretty explicit that all it does is drop the cost of non-class skills from 2 points per rank to 1.
Although, once you've multiclassed, all of your class skills are considered class skills in terms of max ranks. That's just how they work. If you're taking factotum at an early level, you already treat all skills as class skills for max ranks at all levels. No convincing needed.
Last edited by RobbyPants on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:24 pm

So, Able Learner just shoots me in the foot, no matter what I do, because it's "benefits" have become "normal" ways that our game works. Regarding skill points costs for cross-class skills.
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Schleiermacher
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Post by Schleiermacher » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:59 pm

Well, obviously then the GM should either change the way the feat works, substitute another prerequisite or (lazy option) just drop that prerequisite outright.
I can't imagine any GM would keep around a feat that literally does nothing because it's been invalidated by house rules.
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