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Lago_AM3P
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### Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:11 am

Okay, so check this out.
On the game I'm playing, we're doing an errata'd 3.5E game with core rules only. To a point. I want to make a 2nd level cleric archer and bring her up to level 9, but the circumstances are very hard.
Spells from any other book are not approved. Magical items from other books or the core ones may be approved with arm twisting (though no arrows of spell storing or defending). Almost every feat from the other Complete Books are approved. The only full-caster prestige class for clerics approved is the Loremaster, Church Inquisitor, a version of the contemplative that takes away your turning attempts, and the Divine Oracle. I may be able to convince someone of the Dweomerkeeper.
Stat array is a 24 point buy after starting all stats with a 10 at a 1 for 1 basis.
There are no ungodded clerics and there are no gods that have the war domain. There's a custom list of deities which have no domains from non-core books.
My DM thinks that min-maxxing under these circumstances for a clerical archer are impossible, but I want to prove him wrong. . So... any advice?
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by User3 » Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:30 am

Ok, since you can enter the Church Inquisitor early in it's CD version and it is still a great prestige class this should be the prestige class of choice. We do not like to have to keep up Dex and Str and Con and Wis so Dex has to go. Zen Archery (from CW) lets you use Wis instead of Dex. That also means you will probably run around in plate mail.
Levels: Human Cleric 3, Church Inquisitor 10 (CD)
Pick any domains you like (Keep in mind your turning will stay at cleric level 3). The Church Inquisitor requires only 3 skills at 4 ranks each so you are free to choose your feats for archery.
Abilities:
str 16
dex 12
con 16
int 12
wis 18
cha 10
Feats: Point blank Shot (Lvl 1), Precise Shot (Lvl 1), Zen Archery (Lvl 3), after that you have the basics covered - craft wondrous item at 6th may be nice, depending on how much time you get to craft. At 9th Level Quicken Spell is nice for Divine Favor or Shield of Faith.
Now, that leaves you with the problem of actually being proficient with your bow. There are several ways around that.
1) Delay Precise Shot to level 6 and take a martial weapon proficiency
2) Be an elf and likewise delay Precise Shot to level 6
3) Pretend you are a melee (and possibly throwing) cleric and try to get hold of some bracers of archery
Equipment:
I am no great shakes at this but a holy bow works quite well if you hunt evil and stacks with GMW. Otherwise it is all the same old tricks, Karma Beads, bow of special abilities that gets GMWed, and so on.
I assume your GM will let a little mountain drop on your character if you dare to voice the possibility of getting a defending bow, eh?
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Username17
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Username17 » Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:34 am

With no War Domain you'll want to be an Elf if you want to be an Archer. It gives you both Martial Weapons that are worth anything - the Long Sword and the Long Bow. You start with only one feat - it will be PBS because you aren't a god damned moron. There is also much to be said for going the Mounted Combat approach (I'm not kidding), and running around stabbing people with a lance. It's a little hard. But worth it (especially if Spikes is allowed). If you want to go melee, be a human, or a Sea Kin if they are allowed.
Save up your swag for Rods of Lesser Extend Spell and Lesser Quicken. Those are sweet. And Core. By 5th level you'll easily be able to walk in with a Lesser Extend Rod, and then you'll be able to have McVestment up all day. Remember that every Karma Bead you get improves your all-day bonuses by +1 each. Glory in that.
With only Core Domains to choose from, and no War Domain - grab Protection and Luck. Those granted powers are the awesome. Alternately, get Travel and Anything At All. Travel will eventually give you the Teleport Ambush.
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:24 am

Should I bother with the divine metamagic: persistent feat in this game if I have the charisma to spare?
If not, how can I ensure to have my mojo on without having to resort to teleport ambushes?
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Sma » Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:42 am

Depends if you´ll get to use the errataed or the nonerrataed version (i.e. taking extended and perstistant as prerequs or not) and how your GM feels about using Turn Elemental slots for this feat.
If yes, then by all means go for it, as Persistant Divine Favour/Power is rather hard to replicate otherwise.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Username17 » Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:34 am

Remember that you gain four uses of every type of turning you have when you get Extra Turning. So by the Complete Divine book as written, a human Cleric with a Carisma of 11 could have the Fire domain, Extra Turning, and Divine Persistance and have 14 turning attempts that could be shuffled off at the rate of 7 per persistent spell. You could start life with Persistent Bless and Persistent Divine Favor. That's both your feats for a +2 attack bonus and a +1 damage bonus all day (and the rest of your party gets a +1 attack bonus as well). Your second Domain could be Sun and you'd have 5 greater turning attempts left over to kill undead with.
But that all requires:
* People to not use Andy's tirade about how he meant Divine Metamagic to only apply to one of the metamagic feats you already knew. (A bizzare ruling that would make it completely useless for any purpose other than breaking the game).
and
* People to use Persistent Spell at all, which is in the Complete Arcane, but which most people ban.
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:31 pm

I can get persistent spell and the original divine metamagic.
However:
1.) I thought it said in the description of the spell that you could only use it off of regular turn undead attempts. 'As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat you know.' -- unless this got errata'd.
2.) How does the greater turning attempt get powered off of extra turning? 'If you have the ability to rebuke more than one kind of creature (such as a good aligned cleric with access to the fire domain, etc. etc.)'. But greater turning isn't more than one kind of creature from regular undead turning. How would this apply?
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Username17 » Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:36 pm

1) "Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead." Since it is as turning undead, the uses can be expended as turn undead - in order to power divine metamagic in this case.
2) Of course it turns different creatures! By that flawgic, you wouldn't be able to get extra uses of Fire turning because they both affect Lava Wights. The only necessity is that it turns or rebukes different creatures. Not that it affects different creatures. So Greater Turning doesn't turn or rebuke anything - it destroys everything it affects. So the set of creatures that it turns or rebukes is empty - which is different from regular turning which turns various undead creatures depening upon your check result.
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User3
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by User3 » Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:10 pm

Frank, that's awesome possum. However:

> 1) "Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead." Since it is as turning undead, the uses can be expended as turn undead - in order to power divine metamagic in this case.

Frank, do you think that what they meant (since the people who wrote this game use weasel logic) is that water/fire/air/earth/etc. rebuke attempts are totally separate things from undead turning but they just claim that the mechanic is the same?
If the only weasel logic they could use is stealth errata then what's the real convincing reason? I mean, some people just won't buy the 'turning air creatures is the same as turning undead except for what it turns'. I mean, there's feats and language that separates it.

> * People to not use Andy's tirade about how he meant Divine Metamagic to only apply to one of the metamagic feats you already knew. (A bizzare ruling that would make it completely useless for any purpose other than breaking the game).

Wouldn't Divine Metamagic still be useful under the 'real interpretation' because it lets you exceed the normal spell limits or save spell slots?
My DM apparently agrees with Andy, but accepts the turning undead. However, I need to make a slightly stronger case for the fire/water/air/etc. turning.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Username17 » Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:22 pm

> Lago wrote:I mean, there's feats and language that separates it.

Um... no there isn't. Since Fire Turning is "as turn undead" it is fully affected by absolutely everything that affects turn undead. It is likewise affecting things that are affected by turn undead specifically.
Note that this means that if there's something dumb like a door that is triggered by a turning attempt, or a rebuking attempt, you can open it with a Fire Turning attempt. Either way, since a Fire Turning can also be a Water Rebuking attempt if you want.
This means also that an amulet of turning makes your Fire turning better. And that seems to be what they actually meant, because in the very few times they've actually mentioned elemental domains they've implied that you "might" want to get one (which is a fancy way of saying "If you don't grab one of these bad boyz, you are a damned fool and I'm not going to talk to you anymore).
What has never been explained, however, is what happens when a Druid takes a level of Contemplative and gains the Fire Domain. There has never been a cogent explanation of what the hell happens - as far as I can tell he's the proud recipient of 3+ uses of turning at the zeroth level. Most people I know go back and retcon that ability to working by character level rather than cleric level in that case - but your mileage may vary.

> Lago wrote:Wouldn't Divine Metamagic still be useful under the 'real interpretation' because it lets you exceed the normal spell limits or save spell slots?

Well, it's fixed in application. So the only thing it lets you do is focus your character on a single trick and expend all your feats and all your turning attempts on pulling it off. Which means that if the trick in question isn't abusive, you're doing something wrong.
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:09 am

Oh, oops. I guess you can't combine the turning effects from different domains after all. Not even sun.
From the 3.0E FAQ:

> Using the rules in the Player’s Handbook, a player creates a
> cleric of Obad-Hai and chooses the Fire and Air domains.
> The cleric has a Charisma score of 12 (+1 Charisma
> modifier), so the character would get 4 undead turning
> attempts each day. The granted powers from the
> character’s domains also give him 4 turning attempts each
> day against fire and water creatures and 4 more attempts
> against air and earth creatures. Now he chooses his feats. If
> the cleric chooses the Divine Might feat from the Defenders
> of the Faith book, he can use one turning attempt to add his
> Charisma modifier (+1) as a damage bonus for melee
> attacks against any foe. Does this mean he can use any and
> all turning attempts, or just turning attempts against
> undead to do this? What if he chooses Extra Turning as a
> feat? Does he get 4 extra turning attempts just to turn
> undead? Four extra uses of each turning ability? A pool of
> 4 extra turning uses each day that he can use for any of his
> 3 different turning abilities? What happens if he chooses
> Heighten Turning from Defenders of the Faith? Can he use
> this feat to affect elemental turning as well as undead
> turning?
> The Divine Might feat, and all the divine feats from
> Defenders of the Faith, allow you to use a turn/rebuke undead
> attempt to get a special effect, not any other type of turning.
> Though this is not clear from the general description of divine feats on page 19 of Defenders of the Faith, the individual feat
> descriptions are crystal clear in this regard. (See the Benefit
> section of each feat description.)
> As noted before extra turning technically can be applied only
> to undead turning, but there’s no good reason you can’t apply it
> to another type of turning. If you have more than one type of
> turning ability, you choose which type the feat will affect when
> you take the feat. You can take the feat more than once,
> applying it to a different type of turning each time.
> Like Extra Turning, Heighten Turning technically applies
> only to turning undead. Also like Extra Turning, there’s no
> reason you couldn’t apply Heighten Turning to another type of
> turning, but you choose one type of turning to affect when you
> pick the feat.

That sucks.
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Username17
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Username17 » Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:15 am

But it is:
1> Contradicted in the feat description (making it about as relevant as the rant about monks holding objects).
and
2> Not reproduced in the 3.5 FAQ, where they have rewritten the rules on Elemental Turning anyhow (making it about as relevent as the rant about monks holding objects).
So... if the party monk has to give up his first attack in each full attack progression while holding a lantern, then you can't power Divine Metamagic with Fire Turning or apply your Extra Turning to your Sun Domain turning.
Remember, 3.5 rewrote the rules on special turning, so now every single set of them gains when you get extra turning. The 3e FAQ introduced an optional rule where Extra Turning could be taken as Extra Turning: Sun. The 3.5 core rules automatically have Extra Turning apply to normal turnings and Sun Turnings at the same time.
It's a different rules set from the one that FAQ answer was written (poorly) for - and one in which the design intent of making Sun Clerics roxxor the hizzy is explicit.
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:21 am

> 1> Contradicted in the feat description (making it about as relevant as the rant about monks holding objects).

I really don't see how it is contradicted in the feat description; it seems more like they're ambiguous about what turning applies, as they don't come flat out and say that you can use either set of turning. And since they don't explicitly specify, the FAQ applies.

> 2> Not reproduced in the 3.5 FAQ, where they have rewritten the rules on Elemental Turning anyhow (making it about as relevent as the rant about monks holding objects).

How so? I thought that they just changed the extra turning feat, not the entire shabeel.
Don't get me wrong, Frank, it's not like I don't want this to happen but for the people who interpret rules 'averagely' I sort of need an open and shut case. These are the sort of people who laughed at Hypersmurf when he said that you get 2x bonus from power attack with a lance and shield when mounted. It didn't help when the FAQ came right out and said that they were right, contradicting a literal interpretation.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by RandomCasualty » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:37 am

> Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1107400905[/unixtime]]
> These are the sort of people who laughed at Hypersmurf when he said that you get 2x bonus from power attack with a lance and shield when mounted. It didn't help when the FAQ came right out and said that they were right, contradicting a literal interpretation.

2x damage wtih a lance and shield? Is this with spirited charge I assume? And if so, what part of the FAQ says you can't do that?
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Lago_AM3P
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:43 am

Yeah. It comes from language that states that you get the 2x bonus from power attack with the weapon size, not handedness.

> 3.5E FAQ wrote:You can get a host of benefits from wielding a twohanded
> weapon, such as 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on
> damage (and twice your damage bonus from the Power
> Attack feat) and a +4 bonus on your opposed attack roll if
> someone tries to disarm you. So when is a weapon “twohanded?”
> For example, a lance is a two-handed weapon,
> right? But you can wield it in one hand when you’re
> mounted. Since the weapons table shows that a lance is a
> two-handed weapon, I get all the two-handed benefits no
> matter how I wield the lance, right?
> Wrong. Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook lists weapons
> as light, one-handed, or two-handed strictly as a matter of
> convenience. These size categories are always relative to the
> wielder’s size, as explained in some detail in the section on
> weapon size on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook (also see
> next question).
> When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons,
> they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. (More...)

Hypersmurf was going on an extremely literal interpretation of the rules with didn't assume or contradict anything. But the FAQ said that he was wrong for some reason.
But I guess that I shouldn't be surprised.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:26 am

Also, someone pointed out that they way the granted domain power for the sun domain was worded such that it replaces one of your regular turn attempts, not a separate set of turn abilities on its own.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Username17 » Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:44 am

Good point. That comes from me looking at the 3e PHB and crosschecking against the SRD. Yes, the 3.5 Sun Domain is not extensable by Extra Turning as per the 3.5 RAW.
But Fire Turnings and Earth Turnings can be used to persistentalate spells via Divine Metamagic.
---
As for Lances... I just don't know what to say.
Andy Collins sincerely has no idea what the hell he wrote down when he made the 3.5 Weapon Size rules. The only thing it was supposed to do was to make Power Attack wicked awesome for a Great-Axe. And to nerf Power Attack into unusability for TWF Rangers. Apparently, Andy Collins got repeatedly overshadowed by a Ranger, and he felt the need to nip that shit in the bud.
The fact of the matter is that the FAQ is totally wrong on that score. Power Attack doesn't talk about things for convenience, it clearly uses the inane weapon-size wordings that Andy invented for 3.5!

> PHB wrote:If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands...

If they had meant something other than that using a two-handed weapon in one hand still counted, they could have said:

> What Andy Thinks he said wrote:If you attack with a two-handed or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands...

That's right. They added extra text so that Power Attack specifically worked with weapons categorized as "Two-Handed", even if they are presently being used in one hand for whatever reason.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:19 am

Frank, re: using elemental rebuking attempts for divine feats...
I know what you're trying to say but I will have no luck convincing these people unless I prove beyond reasonable doubt that's what the rules say. Bonus points if it hints at design intent.
What I'm basically looking for is wording that elemental turning works sufficiently different than how it worked in 3.0E (which the FAQ said it didn't work) that I can still use them. Also, if that's what it meant, what's with the wording in the spells and the chapter on divine feats that references turn/rebuke undead so much? People are going to say that the 'spirit of the game' only allows you to use regular turn/rebuke undead attempts. And given how the designers tend to rule on these things...
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Username17 » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:40 am

There is absolutely nothing anywhere that references elemental turnings, because the designers don't actually remember that it exists. Like ever. Seriously, everything just says "turn undead" - which is the name of the general ability. Things which modify turn undead or which are extra uses of turn undead that affect different creatures just say they work like turn undead and allow all the relevent abilities to grandfather into affecting them as well.
I mean, Quicken Turning doesn't say that it works on any turning, it says it works on "turn undead" (which is, again, the actual name of the ability that the Fire Domain grants). There are examples of Quickening Fire Turning in Dragon and shit, because you are supposed to be able to do that. But it really honestly doesn't ever say anything other than "turn undead" ever.
Your request is impossible to complete because "turn undead" is the name of the ability header in the PHB. The Fire Domain grants you uses of "turn undead" that affect creatures with the [Water] subtype instead of Elemental type creatures, and that really is the long and the short of it. The only time it ever talks about "turning" without talking about "turning undead" is when they are fvcking well being imprecise.
Sure, you're supposed to be able to Empower Earth Turning to rebuke more mephits - that's "obviously" design intent. But they never come out and say that. Because they don't have to, because that's the fvcking default condition. Tell the people you are playing with that they are morons and punch them in the plexis so hard that they die.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:17 am

I also see that in Complete Warrior, they specifically tell you that only turn/rebuke UNDEAD attempts work for their list of feats.
In Complete Divine, for the elemental turning feats, they state that their special thingies only work for things that can turn an elemental subtype. Animal domain and plant domain (and regular attempts) don't work. They also imply that using other types of turning work for the other divine feats unless they specify. In case you are wondering about whether they just decided to use shorthand for this book, Disciple of the Sun also specifically tells you that only turn rebuke UNDEAD attempts can power this feat.
Given these two facts and the wording of the divine feats in 3.5E, (which require you to channel positive/negative energy, which is something that's always on even if you run out of attempts), I have the feeling that the only objection to using other turning attempts to power your divine feats is because you feel it's 'overpowered' (which it only is for one feat) or it's 'unthemely' (then you have to explain why you would rule it out for the 'honest' uses).
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:10 am

Also, please note the feats Elemental Healing and Elemental Smiting.
Not only do these feats that not require any turn/rebuke attempts at all to take or use, they PROHIBIT using undead (or any other kind) of turning to power them.
And they're still divine feats!
Given this fact and also the fact that this and other books have said when you can only use turn/rebuke undead attempts, I think it's an open and shut case.
--
Also, this book is completely riddled with errors. Especially the ones that detail sample characters. Jesus. The Divine Crusader, for example, has more spells per day than she is entitled to. There also isn't a section on caster level!
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:19 am

This also means that blaster clerics completely rock your cock in a sock.
I mean, just start a regular character that gives two kinds of turning as a domain ability. Pick divine metamagic: quicken spell. Pump up your charisma like crazy. If your DM is operating under the divine metamagic nerf, by level 12 your human cleric/contemplative who picked turning domains and the rest of the feats as extra turning can have 76 turning attempts with a charisma bonus of +0; this is enough to quicken 15 spells of any level a day.
Net result, you pretty much cast all of your spells like the old haste used to.
Or I guess you could use it on heighten turning and generate a save DC of +100; all published deities die horrible deaths.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Lago_AM3P » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:53 am

Actually, no. Heighten Spell tops out at 9th level.
So the game won't automatically implode, then. Good.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by User3 » Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:51 pm

Hmmmm....what happens if you have both cleric and paladin levels when you take the extra turning feat? It doesn't explicitly say anywhere that the two abilities stack with each other...would you get 4 extra turning attempts to both abilities? If so, this seems like the only way to get a lot of turning attempts really fast for the purposes of divine metamagic.
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### Re: Cleric Archer on a Budget

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Post by Username17 » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:44 pm

> guestian wrote:It doesn't explicitly say anywhere that the two abilities stack with each other...

Yes it does. It's not in either class description, it's under the general rules for multiclassing. Paladin and Cleric turn undead abilities simply add together to figure out what level they go off at. Other things that have been introduced since then you have to have an argument with your DM as to how they stack.
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