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## Bug People-How different from elves and orcs should they be?

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Prak
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### Bug People-How different from elves and orcs should they be?

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Post by Prak » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:16 pm

I got a friend to pick up an old campaign he ran, and also approve a couple things from Tome that make an old character idea of mine function- a thri kreen warlock/soulknife who basically wields two conjured blades and fires eldritch blasts from the other two hands. Now, I'm using soulborn rather than soulknife, but that's a minor thing.
I also wrote a new race so I didn't have half my starting levels taken up by race, and while it was inspired by the Kreen, especially the review of Thri Kreen of Athas that Mechalich did, it raises questions of how different bug people should be. I worked in some stuff but too much and it would have ballooned the LA (under this GM).
Here's what I came up with-
Mantids (Anther Kreen)

- +4 Dex, -2 Int
- 30 ft land speed
- Medium Monstrous Humanoids
- Darkvision 60 ft
- Four Armed- may take the feat Multi-weapon Fighting
- Natural Attacks- Mantids have a somewhat weak bite attack (1d4) and their upper arms have three segments before the hand, the last two of which can close completely, like a pair of scissors, giving them two powerful claw attacks (1d6) evolved to catch and hold prey. If a mantid hits a medium or smaller creature with both claws in the same round (as part of a full attack) they may immediately initiate a grapple without provoking an attack of opportunity. Mantids may use their claw attacks while holding items in their upper limbs (because the "claws" aren't on their fingers)
- Chitin- Mantids have +1 NA
- Trapping Grip- Mantid forelimbs and hands are adapted to hold readily and let go reluctantly. They receive a +4 bonus on grapple and disarm checks and to resist being disarmed. If they are unable to use their upper arms, they do not receive the bonus to grapple checks.
- Weapon Familiarity- Mantids treat their cultural weapons, the Gythka and Chatkcha as martial weapons.
- Dasl- Mantids may combine their slightly-corrosive saliva with sand to create a crystaline substance known as Dasl. This substance may be molded and shaped as it is created, and is often used in the creation of bladed weapons. When made into a bladed weapon, it has the qualities of steel, but weighs half as much. Dasl cannot be used to create blades longer than 3' in length (ie, any two-handed, non-polearm is pretty much out).
- Leap- Mantids are wingless, but they have powerful legs, allowing them to leap great distances. Mantids have a racial bonus to jump equal to their HD.
- Insect Physiology- Mantids bear a lot of similarities to mundane insects.
  - The primary advantage to this is that they do not sleep, and are immune to sleep effects. They may be forced into hibernation through the application of extreme cold, however, and react to cold quite differently from fleshy races.
  - If environmental cold would force a mantid to save against damage, they must instead save against an equal amount of dexterity damage. Once the mantid reaches 0 dexterity, they are forced into a catatonic, coma-like state (as if they had reached 0 charisma). Once the ambient temperature rises above 40 degrees, they awaken and begin recovering 1d4 dexterity per round.
  - Mantid antennae are sensitive, scent-based organs. They have a reduced miss chance whenever they would have difficulty locating something based on vision alone (-5% per point of wisdom bonus), so long as a physical barrier is not present between them and the object.
  - While Mantids have lungs like other humanoids, they do not breath solely through their head as humanoids do. This makes it difficult to suffocate a mantid (short of gas-based suffocation), but also makes it difficult for a mantid to swim. Any attempt to suffocate a mantid requires all their breathing holes be covered (which is basically impossible if the mantid is not helpless), unless the suffocation is due to deprivation of environmental oxygen (ie, water or gas), in which case the mantid suffers a -4 penalty to fortitude checks to resist it. In order to swim, a mantid must either cover the majority of their breathing holes (usually they'll use dasl to do so), which takes 5 minutes of work, or attempt to hold their breath (which they can do unlike normal insects), which requires a concentration check at the same DC as their swimming checks.
  - It is very difficult for a mantid to disguise themselves as another race without using magic. Any attempt to do so suffers a -10 penalty, unless the mantid has made use of Alter Self or similar (Disguise Self doesn't cut it alone). If a mantid can completely cover themselves without rousing suspicion, such as in an arctic environment where most people are more mountains of cloth with a voice emanating from the center, this penalty is reduced to the normal penalty for disguising oneself as a different race (because their body shape is still noticeably different).
- Insect Mentality- Mantid minds are significantly different from those of other humanoids. Because of this, mantids receive a +4 bonus against mind-affecting effects. However, the significant difference between mantid psychology and other humanoids makes socializing difficult, on top of just basic cultural differences. A mantid receives a -4 penalty to Diplomacy and Sense Motive attempts. The differences between mantid minds and other humanoids mean that they have difficulty knowing how to bluff other humanoids, but also that other humanoids have difficulty "reading" a mantid, so bluff receives neither penalty nor bonus. The alien physiology and psychology of a mantid is very unnerving to most, even absent entophobia, so mantids receive a +2 bonus to Intimidate. Some people are afraid of insects and will receive a penalty to their opposed check, at the DM's discretion.
- +2 racial bonus to Perception- Mantids have large eyes, and antennae that are sensitive to scent and vibration, allowing them to spot, hear and find things easily.
- Environment-adapted- Mantids are a race with many variations. While all mantids are broadly the same in capability, each variety is adapted to a certain environment. In the environment a mantid's variation is adapted to, they receive a +2 racial bonus to stealth and survival.
- Mantids speak their own language, Mant, which makes heavy use of clicks, rasps, and pheromones, making it difficult for non-insects to speak fluently, or even understand. They speak other languages with what amounts to a heavy accent due to their insectile facial structure, and inability to pronounce the sounds of the letters f, p, b, m, and v. Generally they can make themselves understood, however.

MC judged this +1 LA, which, fine.
But thinking about it, and doing some more research on bugs, there's more that could go in. Bug people could easily have a resistance to crits, since many of the important organs of a bug are in their abdomen. They could have tremorsense, and so on.
So how different should bug people be from elves and orcs and shit?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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erik
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Post by erik » Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:12 pm

Tremorsense makes sense if they are the size of insects. Otherwise not. Just give them Scent instead of the reduced miss chance. I have a pet peeve for making up mechanics when viable ones already exist.
Crit resistance I also say nay to since weak points still abound. There's a reason we don't see exoskeletons on many large creatures, strength is less as surface area increases. I'd just give more natural armor on the pretense that it's really hard/durable and that they don't wear armor.
Replace that awful jump bonus with the ability to fly at movement speed (perfect mobility for reduced bookkeeping) for 1 round every other round.
That's all I have while playing on my phone.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:54 am

Scent probably would have been a good idea, but scaling reduced miss chance to wis mod was one of the "this probably won't push me into a higher LA" things. If only I and Mister Cavern have to remember it, it's not a huge deal. There were a number of points where we basically said "if we were publishing this, this should work different/be more explicit" but it's just a bit of homebrew so I can be a bug man with five class levels instead of 2. Same with the scaling jump bonus.
The idea of reduced crit vulnerability comes from the fact that D&D has, at least infrequently, modeled "your bits aren't in the usual human places" with being harder to crit. I suppose it'd be more accurate to phrase it as some sort of resistance to precision damage.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Leress
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Post by Leress » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:33 am

> Prak wrote: The idea of reduced crit vulnerability comes from the fact that D&D has, at least infrequently, modeled "your bits aren't in the usual human places" with being harder to crit. I suppose it'd be more accurate to phrase it as some sort of resistance to precision damage.

Why not just make it Light Fortification?

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:37 am

Right, that was one of the ways I was thinking it could be done. I was just thinking about the general idea of being harder to crit, I hadn't really bothered to decide how I'd implement it specifically.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Mechalich
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Post by Mechalich » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:17 am

Reduced crit modification makes some sense if their internals are more insect-like than mammalian. Insect hemolymph carries nutrients and hormones and the like but not oxygen - which is supplied by the tracheal system instead, and therefore bleeding all of the the place doesn't have quite the same level of immediate consequences that it does for mammals (of course the physiological limitations of the tracheal system is the principle reason for size limitations in arthropods so...).
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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:09 am

There are giant praying mantis's you can fight in 3.5 with stats:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Giant_Praying_Mantis
There's no special rules for their non-mammilian anatomy and critical hits, so I think it'd be fine to have your mantis PC people not have special fortification rules.
I figure you could just use the giant mantis's grabby claw rule for your mantis people:
"Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a giant praying mantis must hit with its claws attack. If it wins the ensuing grapple check, it establishes a hold and makes a bite attack as a primary attack."
Interestingly it doesn't have any bonus to grapple outside of it's size and 19 strength.
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Grek
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Post by Grek » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:37 am

The cold damage = dex damage thing is fucking terrible and I don't know why anyone hasn't complained yet.
Large numbers of minor bonuses (1d6/1d4 natural attacks, minor jump bonuses, minor perception bonuses, etc.) inflate the perceived value of the race while adding very fun. Weird fiddly drawbacks are annoying. Special rules of any type are viewed with suspicion by DMs.
Mechanics that are actually fun:

- Darkvision 60ft, Scent 30ft. The written form of Insectoid, the Insect racial language, is olfactory in nature and can only be read/written by those with Scent. Insects have scent glands in their hands which allow them to write in Insectoid.
- +2 Constitution/-2 Charisma. Insects are chitinous and resilient, but generally regarded as hideous and unsympathetic. Add +Dex, +Str or +Int as appropriate.
- Graspers: Insects have four arms, but only two hands. The other two arms have specialized appendages known as 'graspers' which are only good for grasping, holding and dropping things. An Insect gains a +4 bonus to pick up or hold onto an object held in their graspers, but may not use their graspers to help wield weapons, bear shields, throw items or cast spells.

Last edited by Grek on Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:06 pm

I used weird skill mods instead of a charisma penalty because I was making this to play as a soulborn.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:04 pm

> Prak wrote:I used weird skill mods instead of a charisma penalty because I was making this to play as a soulborn.

If you are making a race for your own game so you have the best charater, and at the same time you are going to include weird ass mechanics because you don't want to take the time to think of an easily implemented universally good rule....
Why are you asking for advice here? Like, you are either trying to make something good, (in which case your reasons for every decision are terrible) or you are not, (in which case, why ask for advice at all?)

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:48 pm

Grek has just done some good work, and you should use his suggestion. If you worry about being a good soulborn, make it a -2 Wisdom instead, described as being more prone to instinctual/simplistic reactions than fully incorporating the environment.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:22 pm

I'm asking in general about how different bug people should be, using the race I made as an example of some thoughts I had, not asking for feedback on that specific race, Kaelik.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Pixels
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Post by Pixels » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:48 pm

It's fine to have a gimmick or two, but you have way too many special snowflake rules in there. Having a few dramatic features is better than having a billion fiddly little ones.
To answer the underlying question, even weird mantis-people shouldn't be that different from orc or humans, at least mechanically. If they're too complicated it becomes a headache for players and the DM, and you have to ask yourself if it really will add that much to the experience. If you want them to be a complex and thought-provoking race, instead you should consider putting a lot of work into describing their history and culture.
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Leress
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Post by Leress » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:50 pm

To answer your question: As different as you want them to be. They still have to be a non-trap option. You can be as subtle as the differences between humans and Klingons or as majorly as the difference between humans and Namekians.
You also made the mistake of race=culture with the weapons.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

]

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Grek
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Post by Grek » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:08 am

> virgil wrote:Grek has just done some good work, and you should use his suggestion. If you worry about being a good soulborn, make it a -2 Wisdom instead, described as being more prone to instinctual/simplistic reactions than fully incorporating the environment.

Her, actually. And yes, -2 Wis would also be much more reasonable with Soulborn.

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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle » Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:55 am

> Prak wrote:I'm asking in general about how different bug people should be

OK that clears things up, I thought it was feedback for that specific writeup.
For social differences I'm not all that concerned with having an 'alien mindset' because this is a game with elemental people, angel people, demon people, robot people, and tree people hanging out in the same communities and bang one another.
Mechanically, well if burrowing beetle men had dorf stats and vespid men had elf stats I'd still play them just so I can call myself a bug person. But in a world where elves and dwarves and orcs already have stats I expect bug people to be filling a niche they don't and going a bit further in a way that remains class neutral. So some special sensory and maybe movement options, maybe you have an extra pair of weak arms that can be used for simple utility but not strong enough to throw bombs and stab people. Or maybe you do have four functional arms but they're relatively weak and you need two to swing a sword as hard as an orc.
If it's a setting with bug people alongside humans and skinny humans and green humans then I could see a greater mechanical change where elves and dwarves are seen more as specific clan lineages of the same race. Kind of like how Legend of Zelda has pointy eared people and stout bearded people that would be called elves and dwarves in D&D, but they're the same species while your "not a human" races are fish people and rock people.
So in a setting with playable bug people alongside humans I'd divide things up as...
Mammalian
- DEX+ Elves
- STR+ Orcs
- CON+ Dwarves
Arthropod
- DEX+ stuff like mantis, vespoids
- STR+ stuff like spiders n' scorpion, maybe taurs
- CON+ squat scarab beetles, crab, and so on
With a similar thing done with lizard/snake/croc people and bird/dinosaur people. How sexy they look by human standards varies with taste.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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