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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:47 am

Sashi: can't you channel that strictness towards something long-term productive like 'learn the U.S. government inside and out or you're a horrible person!'? It seems to be a case of 'correct process, wrong input' than something that is dismissed in of itself.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:28 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Are you saying that their educational system sucks because of the strictness or because of the content of the education?

Both.
The best educational institutions don't simply teach you facts. They teach you how to learn.
My college degree is in Computer Science, and I graduated with honors. But my first real job was a Marketing job, where almost none of my technical skills could be put to use. But I did well anyway, largely because my high school and university taught me how to teach myself to achieve what I want even without a teacher or text book.
And having a relaxed learning environment does actually help people to think more critically. For instance, when I was taking my Masters (in Marketing, because I want to be a teacher someday), the professor asked the class a question:
"What are the valid reasons for creating a new product?"
While everyone else gave a "book" answer (i.e. "To take advantage of an existing market demand"), I gave this answer:
"Because the boss says so."
I got top marks for that answer, as it was the only one that generated more than 10 seconds worth of discussion .
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Sashi
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Post by Sashi » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:07 pm

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Sashi: can't you channel that strictness towards something long-term productive like 'learn the U.S. government inside and out or you're a horrible person!'? It seems to be a case of 'correct process, wrong input' than something that is dismissed in of itself.

I don't think "cultural conformity" can be "channeled" in the way you are thinking it can. And even if it could, social pressure pressure to conform automatically makes people irrational.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:21 pm

> Sashi wrote:And even if it could, social pressure pressure to conform automatically makes people irrational.

Do you mean that all behaviors enforced by social pressure are irrational, or that behaving in accordance with social pressure is irrational?
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
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Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
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Sashi
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Post by Sashi » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:31 pm

Neither. Many socially enforced behaviors are rational, and there's nothing wrong with conforming to the irrational rules of the household you're in. The problem is you can't determine social standards rationally, you just have to "know" what they are. Are you in a place where taking off your shoes is considered polite (you avoid tracking in dirt) or rude (it's overly informal)? So that's the problem, even if something has a completely rational justification, the way you act is defined by cultural standards more than rational justification. Even if something is definitely the rational and correct thing to do ("Wash your hands after you go to the bathroom.") teaching people to do it because of social pressure gives an irrational justification of "because I said so" instead of "because you've probably got shit on your hands, even if you can't see it."
Pressure to conform doesn't teach people to reason, it teaches them to follow orders.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:20 pm

> Lago wrote:Hey, if the hippie shit works it works. But understand that as far as I'm concerned having an education that can be transformed into some kind of employment that won't go obsolete in 10-15 years when Joe Blow graduates is a lot more important than Joe Blow getting an education. Hopefully they'll overlap, but if they don't, the latter has got to go.

You might notice that my suggestions turn people into better students - but there's no specification on what type of student. That's because it doesn't matter. You can go ahead and teach them whatever you like, the point is that they are more capable of learning.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Draco_Argentum
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Post by Draco_Argentum » Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:45 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Sashi: can't you channel that strictness towards something long-term productive like 'learn the U.S. government inside and out or you're a horrible person!'? It seems to be a case of 'correct process, wrong input' than something that is dismissed in of itself.

People have to be taught how to rationally determine the difference between a shit idea and a good one. Simply teaching them a bunch of good ideas won't prepare them for adulthood where they need to weigh up the ideas of authority figures and reject the majority due to craptasticness.
Conformity is why political parties can be fucking shithouse and still get votes. So many people vote for their party without thought and thats why society is bad.
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Midnight_v
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Post by Midnight_v » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:00 am

Hmm... I wonder if there is an understanding of classism in United States culture.
Now don't get me wrong I actually DO believe in cultural engineering, thats real, and fairly obvious in microcosms (Marines, Senators, Chik-fil-a, and starbuck employees etc... all get an limiting selection process to keep undesirables out then encouracge the behavior they think is acceptable through various reinforments), but YOU nor the public do anything about it without restructuring things in your country that make it what it is. Namingly Media, or any other propaganda engine in existance.
Also the above mentioned placed get to decide who can play from the begining... so ymmv on that.
Draco is right about conformity, there are so many straight ticket voters, the unwashed masses aren't getting anything done...
The part thats most important and that it seems people overlook is that the people at the top of the pyramid scheme called capitalism really want it that way and benefit from that immensely.
Here's why... Its the selection process by which you can join the elite. Yeah, that's right, Shit schools, and Media propaganda. So either you... are a genius and really the elite dont' mind giving a daugter to a rare genius as long as he plays by the rules, or you manage to navigate the incredibly complex system of advancemnt from ghetto schooling to yale somehow. If you're tough enough to do that... the super rich can find someuse for you....
However, this though Lago has about every child being taught to be "Logical" or having things like "Math and/or engineering" capable... Hell no.
I'm rich, and we need poor/dumb people to fetch the tea, tend the garden, and fight the wars. Yes it's malicious, but lets be serious about this equation shall we?
Last edited by Midnight_v on Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....

> Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.

...If only you'd have stopped forever...
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Sir Neil
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Post by Sir Neil » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:21 am

I stalled out on the idea that the annual income required to be considered Middle Class is 100k+. I assumed it was around 40-50k.

> Koumei wrote:If other sites had plenty of good homebrew stuff the Den wouldn't need to exist. We don't come here because we like each other.

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violence in the media
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Post by violence in the media » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:01 pm

> Sir Neil wrote:I stalled out on the idea that the annual income required to be considered Middle Class is 100k+. I assumed it was around 40-50k.

I saw something on Slate a short while back that said the "middle class" was technically any household above the poverty threshold. So, that family of 4 with a household income of something like $28K is counted as "middle class." IIRC, the top end of "middle class" is the bottom of the top 10%.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:39 pm

> Sir Neil wrote:I stalled out on the idea that the annual income required to be considered Middle Class is 100k+. I assumed it was around 40-50k.

I said upper middle class aka professional class aka managerial class. Not just middle class. The same article on Wikipedia puts most income definitions of middle class starting around $35K.
My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:09 pm

Thanks for this discussion guys; it's causing me to rethink things.
Zinegata's remark about computer science makes a lot of sense. I suppose that it would be better in the long run to teach people how to learn and also teach good critical thinking/studying skills. That would make students more versatile rather than pounding some general science education into their heads.
That said, I'm sure you're heard of Piajet(sp?) and Kohlberg's stages of moral and intellectual development (which my sociology professor convinced me as not coincidental); if you haven't then I'm sure you've heard of the Heinz dilemmia thought experiment. If you believe in those things, how would you tailor a cirriculum to best take advantage of those stages?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:47 pm

Teehee.
My wife did her Masters answering that question, but she will never post here because you guys are MEANIES.
She actually studied under a woman that studied under Piaget.
Anyhow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleanor_Duckworth
Start your digging there.
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:26 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Zinegata's remark about computer science makes a lot of sense. I suppose that it would be better in the long run to teach people how to learn and also teach good critical thinking/studying skills. That would make students more versatile rather than pounding some general science education into their heads.

Pretty much. It's not just making students more versatile though. Many fields are advancing at such a rapid rate that there's simply no way for the text books to keep up.
If you're not good at learning/critical thinking, you won't be able to keep up. So in a lot of fields (Comsci being one of them, but medical tech is another), being a good learner is a necessity, not just a luxury.
Last edited by Zinegata on Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sir Neil
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Post by Sir Neil » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:52 am

Oh, okay. Starting at ~35k seems low, but overall makes sense.

> Koumei wrote:If other sites had plenty of good homebrew stuff the Den wouldn't need to exist. We don't come here because we like each other.

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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:30 pm

> Sir Neil wrote:Oh, okay. Starting at ~35k seems low, but overall makes sense.

I can't even imagine what one would do with that much money, that's WAAAAAY more than I've ever made at any point in my life.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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erik
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Post by erik » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:55 am

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:

> > Sir Neil wrote:Oh, okay. Starting at ~35k seems low, but overall makes sense.

> I can't even imagine what one would do with that much money, that's WAAAAAY more than I've ever made at any point in my life.

I'll fuel your imagination =-)
Mortgage (+ property taxes).
House maintenance/improvements.
Car payment.
Car maintenance.
Food.
Pet food.
Pet maintenance.
Internet.
Cell phone.
Phone land line*
Electricity.
Water.
Gas heat.
Security System.
Car and Home Insurance.
Gasoline.
Student Loan.
Roth IRA contribution.
Investments/Savings/Stocks
Taxes.
Health Insurance.
Health copays and fees and prescriptions.
Charity.
Fun stuff (books, movies, games, vacations, weekend or day-trips, computers, toys and random purchases mostly).
And for the parents:
529 Plans for kids.
Diapers.
More food.
Random kid stuff.
x2 for Roth IRA, investments, cell phone, car, loans, food and fun stuff if only one working spouse.
Then there's one-time costs for furniture, appliances and so forth, along with a modest clothing budget.
All that stuff above (including parent & single income bits) runs me around $35k/year. Thankfully Indianapolis has a pretty low cost of living for a big-ish city. Actually we've been skipping the Roth IRAs for the last couple years after Mrs Erik quit her job to have babies. I suppose we could cut out frivolous items like eating out and other random garbage and be able to put at least a few thousand in IRAs, but honestly it is a battle just getting my wife to not spend oodles on cards for birthdays and other occasions, let alone cook all our meals at home.
I swear her family has some form of mental retardation where they spend over 200 bucks a year (maybe 500+ for some family units) on cards. Stupid, throw-away cards. It drives me insane. Imagine immediate family of 2 sets of grandparents, 10 sets of aunts/uncles, and 50+ cousins (and kids of cousins). And they all feel compelled to give cards for everything. And then thank you cards for the cards. I'd rather write "Thanks!" or "Happy Birthday!" on a $1 bill and give that to people instead. My revolutionary ideas are not welcomed, however.
If Mrs Erik'd ever go back to working even part-time I could start saving for retirement again. Back when she even had a crummy 20k/yr job as an underpaid accountant we used it basically as a surplus windfall and were able to pay off her car early and save some money that we put into stocks and whatnot. My dream is that she'll go back to work full time and make much more than me at somewhere that actually pays average accountant wages so I can drop down to part time and be Mr Mom. Maybe 5-7 years from now once we've had another couple kids and decided that's enough.
Upside to having kids in this down economy is that most people are not having kids (birth rates are down) which means school classes won't be as crowded, future job markets for graduates will be shorter on applicants, basically everything is easier for kids from small generations.
Hrm, I think I digressed some. Anywho, yeah, once you start getting long term possessions like houses and vehicles and have a family, $35k gets eaten up pretty thoroughly.
* We're planning on canceling the house phone line soonish as the unending calls before November elections pushed it over the edge from a reliable backup to an irritating force of nature. Never again!
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th » Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:07 pm

$200 a year on cards? I bought a big box of 100 blank cards for $5 four years ago that I still haven't exhausted yet.
That list sounds pretty good, but I won't own another house again. People in my social strata can't get reasonable mortgage loans. It burns me when people rant about "idiots" who take 30 year loans when most people are lucky if they even get that. Now, I think people on the lower end of the income spectrum just can't get loans of any kind. Either way, I'm never buying anything on credit ever again.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:59 am

Well, some debt is generally good to have a healthy financial situation.
But yeah, given the current climate, not a good time to get a mortgage if you're in the US.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:28 am

> Zinegata wrote:But yeah, given the current climate, not a good time to get a mortgage if you're in the US.

My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
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Jilocasin
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Post by Jilocasin » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:40 am

> Zinegata wrote:But yeah, given the current climate, not a good time to get a mortgage if you're in the US.

Well, not if you personally are going to be living there. Now is the perfect time to snatch up more property though. Especially if you can plunk down 30 or 40 thousand dollars as a down payment for a house you're going to use as a rental property. Leverage that over time into a few more properties and you're golden.
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Zinegata
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Post by Zinegata » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:35 am

> Maj wrote:

> > Zinegata wrote:But yeah, given the current climate, not a good time to get a mortgage if you're in the US.

From what I hear from relatives and friends, mortgage companies have gotten a lot more stringent, so it's harder to get one unless you can prove you have a steady income (and they sometimes even question that). So maybe I should have said "Given the current climate, it's not a good time to apply for a mortgage because it'll probably be rejected".
If you get it though, then great.
Because Jilocasin is right. Now is a great time to pick up property if you have cash. Because a lot of properties are selling at cheaper prices, and being able to put down a big downpayment often open the door for more loans/mortgages.
Last edited by Zinegata on Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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cthulhu
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Post by cthulhu » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:53 am

yeah, definately a good time if you have a large deposit to buy a house - prices are in the tank, and if you can slap 20% n the table, mortgage companies are very receptive to 20% on the table.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:19 am

Ahh... Gotcha. That makes a lot of sense.
As for the renting thing, though... My brother is an underwriter for US Bank, and he said that the are pretty unwilling to give loans for second properties. Apparently, too many people fail at being able to pull it off, so his bank (but not all) requires four years of experience with rental properties before they will even consider you for a loan.
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erik
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Post by erik » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:29 am

> Zinegata wrote:

> > Maj wrote:

> > > Zinegata wrote:But yeah, given the current climate, not a good time to get a mortgage if you're in the US.

> From what I hear from relatives and friends, mortgage companies have gotten a lot more stringent, so it's harder to get one unless you can prove you have a steady income (and they sometimes even question that).

Um... good? You shouldn't be able to get a large loan if you do not have a steady source of income. And they should question it and make certain that you're not just making it up.

> So maybe I should have said "Given the current climate, it's not a good time to apply for a mortgage because it'll probably be rejected".
> If you get it though, then great.

That's a much more reasonable statement. =-) Still I'm not sure that anecdote is representative of the market at large.
I'm pretty sure banks are still happy to give mortgages if they can sell them to people with decent credit. Trouble is that thanks to a lot of things, many people who used to have decent credit no longer meet that criterion.
What is screwing many people is that people with bad credit could not refinance their loans, the same loans that in some cases gave them their bad credit. Or people like me who are going to have to sell their house at a 20% loss (not counting the money we put into it with improvements which would make it more like a 30% loss if I gave it 2/3 value per the cost of improvements) just so that we can get rid of it to buy a larger house.
If I had a bit more income or free time I'd strongly consider just keeping the old house and renting it out whilst I bought another. Heck, if we cannot sell it for 20% below the price we bought it that's probably exactly what we will have to do since it is either that or walk away from it. I have no intent to sell it for less than I owe.
It kills me to see nice houses for $100k or less with decent yards, 4 beds, 2 baths... but I cannot buy a house until I sell my current one since my budget is pretty tight.
Though for that house linked, with a bit of creative budgeting I could potentially buy it while still paying off my current abode. Looks like it has no basement or central AC though, and I have a hunch that it has no gas furnace so... meh. Not my first house choice. It has been dropping $5k/month pretty steadily since February though so I may find it hard to resist come next year if it is still up for grabs. [edit: yeah, I know a bank wouldn't trust my creative budgeting or lack of rental experience, but I think I could convince other sources to pony up funds if need be since I am a known quantity to them.]
I've watched a lot of houses like that or better get bought while I am in limbo. Le sigh.
Last edited by erik on Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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