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## Copyright and Strangling

Mundane & Pointless Stuff I Must Share: The Off Topic Forum

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Koumei
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### Copyright and Strangling

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Post by Koumei » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:11 pm

I know, it sounds fantastic in the title. It's not that awesome.
Once I finish the pdf for Dungeon Crusade, I'm taking a fucking break from that. I will work on this project I am about to mention, and then maybe do the other pdfs before writing up the other shit for DC. Don't worry, it'll get done. At least Core/Imperial is the biggest, longest one of them and the rest will be quicker.
Anyway, a friend mentioned he was surprised I haven't actually made a "Fantasy Pro Wrestling, kind of like blood bowl" game, and said he would even play such a thing, despite hating a lot of the kind of games I like (which is to say, D&D).
And it's a good point. That I know of, there is one Pro Wrestling RPG (the WWE one), and it's bad. Think d20 modern. Seriously, it's very similar. Except for moves, think Epic Spell Casting. Yeah. You might need a double tequila now, having pictured that combination.
Various people have also written up their own systems, usually for sexual wrestling (don't ask how I know this, or I will answer it), and they're all pretty bad, from what I've seen. Most being "Pick one type of hold. Put as much as you can into that. Then put the rest into your defences. Apply your hold ASAP, so they can only spend a turn trying to escape, so even if they succeed, which they probably won't, you then apply it again next turn."
I think I could tackle this. It would clearly go against my usual preference of "combat should take less time than boiling an electric kettle". Players would be strongly encouraged to make rivalries and storylines happen, though the General Manager can of course help this happen. Hell, it's being run by ancient liches who want it all to be entertaining, so they will go out of their way to screw athletes over if it makes for a good show.
There would be mandatory vignettes where people have their dumb scenes, pretending the cameraman isn't there.
But I'm not here to talk rules, or this would go in IMOI. No, I have some questions that seem to fit more in "real world".
1. I would like to make this my own thing, so that if it's considered good enough I could potentially try to actually put it for sale, for the $1 each thing. So the races in this clearly won't include Mind Flayers and other IP. But you can't copyright Goblins, so they're fair game. But how far does copyright go in stomping on parody? For instance, could the following NPCs be mentioned?
[*]An orcish wrestler, a fan-favourite, he is the hordes' champion, THE URAK GUY! (everyone can tell that's playing off "The Urak'Hai"). What if he had a spooky-cloaked manager, the Naz-Gal?
[*]A long-undead lich, he buries his foes alive and is powered by his phylactery, possibly an urn. He also uses magic, which is not technically illegal. Because he is undead, he is called... THE UNDERTAKEN
2. Chokeholds. Okay, what the fuck, seriously. In professional wrestling, it is considered illegal (as in, 5-count to break the hold or you get disqualified) to choke your opponent (as in, restricting air flow via applying pressure to the windpipe). This is painful, causes air hunger, and can eventually lead to unconsciousness or even death (technically, if done right it can be as effective as what I'm about to describe). However strangling is legal. Strangling is known as a "blood choke", where you apply pressure to the carotid arteries to stop blood reaching the brain. It doesn't really hurt, but your opponent could pass out in one D&D round. Seriously. Often shown via the Sleeper Hold (which ~never works in WWE) and the Triangle Choke (which often does work, though not in the 3-6 seconds it usually takes in real life).
Does anyone know the origins of this weird rule? "It's okay to use this hold, which gets a KO in a few seconds and is dangerous, but not okay to use this other hold, which causes pain and discomfort and eventually causes a KO and is less dangerous"?

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:22 pm

Parody goes pretty far. Personally, I would stay away from direct parody characters, but you are allowed to do so.
Crushing a dude's windpipe is potentially fatal and extremely obvious. Kidney punching someone or closing their carotids can also be extremely fatal, but a referee wouldn't necessarily know if you are doing it, because it is based on subdermal anatomical structures.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:28 pm

Hmm, so, I could get away with including them, but it could potentially result in various people getting pissy, and getting C&D letters to ignore? Might leave out the parody references then.
And I suppose "It's not an obviously fatal thing so it's fine" could explain the choke/strangle deal. And given it's seriously Fantasy Wrestling with actual ogres and shit, and thus quite probably healing magic, it would probably be legal to choke them anyway. or pull their head off.
Hitting them with a fold-out chair is still illegal of course.
Thanks.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Neeeek
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Post by Neeeek » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:05 pm

Hmm. Where are you again?
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Meikle641
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Post by Meikle641 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:25 pm

Sort of off topic, but I think you need to include Ursa Murder and Cleavenstein somewhere. They're begging to be in something like this.
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Parthenon
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Post by Parthenon » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:31 pm

You know that puzzle where you have a pile of tokens, take it in turns to take one, two or three out and the person who takes the last one is the loser? Wrestling should be more like that than each having hitpoints and trying to remove all the opponents.
Something like each different move raises the action meter shared by both wrestlers while repeating a move or behaving like a heel when you're a face reduces it. Wrestlers can only actually pin or start the winning actions when the action meter gets to a certain level, but attempts to pin still raise the action meter. You need to make having the fight flow back and forth be faster to win and better than simply beating them up over and over and pinning them repeatedly until their stamina runs out.
The vignettes between matches could do things like give you an effective bonus to the action meter so it acts like it is level 5 for you but only level 4 for them. Or, give you the ability to get a bonus from a random list. For example a vignette where you bribe the other wrestler's coach lets you get a random bonus that if you roll a 1 means you can stun a wrestler long enough to climb the ladder and be likely to win the suitcase whereas if you roll a 3 you get a friendly wrestler come in, beat them up a bit then argue with the ref while you lay a beatdown on the other wrestler.
Last edited by Parthenon on Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:56 pm

I'm about 70% through a wrestling RPG side project, Koumei. I'd be happy to send it to you so you can maybe mine ideas out of it and twist them to your own ends as you see fit. If you're interested, send a PM with an email I can send it to.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:48 pm

Koumei, once your project is done, can I be the one to do a sexy rulesbook for it?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

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> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:31 am

Neeeek: Melbourne, why?
mean_liar: will do
Parthenon: what I have in mind is largely a system where you track momentum, using increasingly stronger attacks as you build momentum, until your opponent hits you with something that breaks your momentum.
People would also pick up fatigue as they go along, and that makes it harder to disrupt the other guy's momentum or kick out of a pin.
Many things would also have stun riders, as climbing the turnbuckle and leaping off, for instance, requires a stunned foe. And you roll to remove the stun condition after your opponent declares their next turn, but before it actually happens.
Using your finisher basically wins the match (in line with WWE and TNA deciding you can only get a pin or submission with a finisher), but requires a dazed opponent and maximum momentum.
Maybe moves would have a list of "injures X body parts" and "uses X body parts", where a really good roll causes an injury, penalising future use of X body part. So if you slam someone's shoulder into the turnbuckle and then hold them in a crippler crossface for a bit, they will have trouble chokeslamming you. I dunno, might be too finnicky.
At first I was thinking of listing like 15 move categories and that's what you choose from ("Takedown", "Heavy Slam", "Submission", "High Risk"), but then I decided that no, while you don't want each player to have a million choices, you want people to have different selections of moves from each other.
Prak: knock yourself out

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:43 am

> Koumei wrote: Using your finisher basically wins the match (in line with WWE and TNA deciding you can only get a pin or submission with a finisher), but requires a dazed opponent and maximum momentum.

If you're trying to do it like WWE/TNA then you need to have it so that using a finisher too soon leaves a chance of it getting countered and then you're on the ropes. I mean it's a pretty common thing where if an established wrestler superstar goes for a finisher too soon before the commercial break in the match against a relatively equal opponent he just gets face-rocked. Of course then it leads to Scarlet Pimpernel-ish 'ha ha! No, I counter your counter!' antics but that happens like all of the time in the WF WWF (:hatin: I'm still not over that) WWE anyway.
If you're emulating Goldberg-style squash matches where you can destroy an opponent in like a minute then you can give a Popularity-based bonus/penalty to the opposed rolls as well. If you want a system where finishers are devastating and rarely broken you probably want to try to emulate Japanese puro pro-wrestling.
Also I can't believe that you're trying to add WWE/TNA-style wrestling without including the most important element: popularity. Sure, strength and experience should also give you a bulge, but if people want Rey Mysterio Jr. to beat Brock Lesnar then it's going to happen. So unless you want a more MMA-style of match where actual skill matters more than showmanship you need to account for this.
Finally:

> Koumei wrote:Various people have also written up their own systems, usually for sexual wrestling (don't ask how I know this, or I will answer it), and they're all pretty bad, from what I've seen.

LAGO WANTS TO KNOW, KOUMEI. As long as it doesn't involve FATAL, that is.
Speaking of FATAL, you also need rules for having necrophiliac sex with a cheerleader mannequinn for a Psyche-Out bonus. Otherwise my WSoD will be destroyed.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:06 am

Okay. "I tried playing them. They weren't fun. They were boring."

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Neeeek
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Post by Neeeek » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:47 am

> Koumei wrote:Neeeek: Melbourne, why?

Copyright laws vary, greatly, between countries. I have no idea what they are in .au.
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Parthenon
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Post by Parthenon » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:14 am

This is really the wrong subforum for the whole discussion, but I'm not so sure about the momentum at the moment. You should have being hit and selling it well increase your chances of winning rather than decrease it.
Similarly you should have a Paper Mario TTYD style crowd which gives you bonuses if they're excited. Maybe gaining fans over time so that if you lose then fans of the underdog support you so that an exciting loss is better than a dull win.

Although, maybe I'm going at it the wrong way. If you're looking at it from the stance of wrestling is actually real and creating a fighting system for beating each other up in a dramatic manner then your way is better, but if you are looking at it in terms of wrestlers are entertainment and you are trying to become the best wrestler over the course of a season while beating your rivals/avenging your family etc then I think my suggestions may work a bit better.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:44 pm

Yeah, wrestling games as a first order of business have to decide on the front-end if they're going to be about wrestling-as-entertainment or wrestling-as-combat.
I'm happily noting that most of these elements are part of the game I'm coming up with, but I seriously doubt it'd be as gonzo as what Koumei will do.
For the record, there's a slew of wrestling games out there, more than just the WWE Know Your Role system. They all are pretty lacking, though. Wild World Wrestling, The Squared Circle, Kayfabe, Rasslin', Piledrivers and Powerbombs... and a few more. Wild World Wrestling is probably the best of the bunch, but has a few fundamental flaws that need fixing (notably that there's an equal tradeoff between "cool" and "effective", where at level-up you can either pick up trinkets that make your wrestler more fun to play or trinkets that boost your ability to win matches).
One thing that does tell you that the creator of Wild World Wrestling was paying attention is that it's the sequel to the d20-based Know Your Role, and in WWW they've tossed stats for just the bonuses those stats give.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:50 pm

Okay, the questions have been answered, so future talk about game stuff should go here: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=215206#215206
Seeing as that's actually the right subforum.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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