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Maj
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Post by Maj » Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:24 pm

I have no clue about the Muslim thing... I know the church isn't allowed to send missionaries to many Islamic countries, so they don't. But in my congregation, they actively hate proselytizing in general. So a newbie would be asked whether or not they belonged to the church, but they wouldn't be all convert-y.
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:11 am

Out of all the religions out there, American Buddhism annoys me the most, because I have only seen it used by people as an excuse to claim a religion, and then they don't actually follow anything of its rules, rituals, or beliefs at all.
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TiaC
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Post by TiaC » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:04 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:Out of all the religions out there, American Buddhism annoys me the most, because I have only seen it used by people as an excuse to claim a religion, and then they don't actually follow anything of its rules, rituals, or beliefs at all.

My cousin has spent probably 10 months out of the last year at a zen monastery where she meditates for 2+ hours a day. You just need to know the right Buddhists.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:55 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:Out of all the religions out there, American Buddhism annoys me the most, because I have only seen it used by people as an excuse to claim a religion, and then they don't actually follow anything of its rules, rituals, or beliefs at all.

That's because you're only seeing the ones that are on the Internet or hanging around at Starbucks or whatever. You don't see all the ones that are atop mountains, doing zen things. Because you know, they're on mountains and you're not.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:07 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:Out of all the religions out there, American Buddhism annoys me the most, because I have only seen it used by people as an excuse to claim a religion, and then they don't actually follow anything of its rules, rituals, or beliefs at all.

[chant]JigokuBosetsu
JigokuBosetsu
JigokuBosetsu...[/chant]
edit: also, if you meet the buddha on the road, kill the buddha
Last edited by Prak on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

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Dean
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Post by Dean » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:04 am

> AndreiChekov wrote:Out of all the religions out there, American Buddhism annoys me the most, because I have only seen it used by people as an excuse to claim a religion, and then they don't actually follow anything of its rules, rituals, or beliefs at all.

American buddhism is a more obvious con than lots of religions and their teachers and speakers are wonderful in how fully they inhabit the snake-oil salesman archetype. True Story: American Buddhist speakers use gibberish and double speak enough that I use their recordings as hypnotic sleep aids.

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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JigokuBosatsu
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Post by JigokuBosatsu » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:30 am

I'm in the hospital so will kep reply brief... American Buddhists can be dickbags.Especially Zen Buddhists. Especially Rinzai zen Buddhists. Like me. We have a tradition of assholery that runs right down the lineage. We were pomo metacognitors before it was cool.
But I assume you're not talking about that. .. but the koi pond hippies who are Buddhist because it's trendy, like being gluten intolerant? I agree. Fuck thos people.
A big part of the confusion I think iss that a lot of what people think oflas Buddhism are actually monastic practices. Us householders have a bit of leeway. Most semi-learned buddhists would probably recommrnd the "Three Jewels" as a beginner template.
The "Buddha" is what kicks it off. You want to feel better, or be better. So by being aware of the suffering you personally ar responsible for causing to yourself and others, you desire to reduce it.
The "Dharma" is where you attempt to understand what the shit is foing on. Inject some mindfulness into your daily life. Why do I suck at Dark Souls? Why do I obsess over bills that need to be paid when my daughter wants to play Barbies? There are times when you need to a deep soul search and times when you need to just be silent and clean the dam toilet. But there's no formula.
The "Sangha" is where you stop n being a solipsist jerk. It doesn't mean joining a temple, though it can help... After all, there are usually monks or whatever the to help you figure this shit out. That's their job. But also in a larger sense. .. you are connected to a community, which is the world. Some of the peopke you need to have compassion for are granola fadsters. Some are invisible, quietly helping the world by recycling life motherfuckers and never once mentioning their religion. Some are complete cockmonglers. You dont have to love these people with grace, though. You're not perfect. So all you can do is figure out what and how and when and why to do the right things. Take care of yourself so you can take care of other people. Why not? There's no reason not to want to put forth effort to make the world a better place even in your limited capacity. But you do it without expecting anything in return. That's the lesson in karma. The things you do have consequences even if they are not immediately apparent, or they may turn out completely shitty for you.
I raise this was not brief, but it's part of _my_ practice, to articulate my understanding so it isnt stale, and isnt habit. Also, writing this post helped distract me from my myoclonic jerking. I always welcomme Buddhist queries, with the caveat that I may be wrong and/or an asshole about it.

> Omegonthesane wrote:a glass armonica which causes a target city to have horrific nightmares that prevent sleep

> JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?

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JigokuBosatsu
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Post by JigokuBosatsu » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:32 am

Deanreul ninja'd me, but I completely agree. Buddhism is the newest buzzword for the Process/EST/channeling/prosperity gospel shitbirds.

> Omegonthesane wrote:a glass armonica which causes a target city to have horrific nightmares that prevent sleep

> JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?

You can buy my books, yes you can. Out of print and retired, sorry.
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AndreiChekov
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Post by AndreiChekov » Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:17 am

> Koumei wrote:That's because you're only seeing the ones that are on the Internet or hanging around at Starbucks or whatever. You don't see all the ones that are atop mountains, doing zen things. Because you know, they're on mountains and you're not.

Actually, I do live on a mountain. And obviously, I'm not bothered by real buddhists. The ones I consider "American Buddhist" are the ones outside Starbbucks and whatever.
Also, thanks for the explaination, Jigoku
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:56 am

> Prak_Anima wrote: edit: also, if you meet the buddha on the road, kill the buddha

If you have ice cream, I will give you ice cream,
If you do not have ice cream, I will take it away from you.
-an ice cream koan

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Post by tussock » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:40 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddism
So ... let's see.
1: Life's a bit shit, and people gunna be dicks to you. Then you die, and that's shit too.
2: But fuck all that. See it, but don't be it. Don't be a dick.
3: Also, the people who are dicks, be nice to them anyway, it'll help them get where you are.
4: Accept, the best you can usually do about the bad shit is not be putting it on people.
5: Including in your day job.
6: Which is big jobs hard. If you're actually working on it, that's what matters.
7: Also, if you're not really working on it too. Knowing yourself, where you're at, it's good.
8: Mostly, just chill. Be good if everyone would just chill.
Which is better than Nihilism by quite a large margin. Though it clearly misses some of the more modern benefits of collective action against common foes. Trade unions. Socialism for all. None of that third-way shit.
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:07 am

No it's massively worse than Nihilism. It reads like someone almost started to understand nihilism and then started a cult. The whole 4 noble truths thing is undiluted bullshit. Their 4 founding beliefs are...
1: Life is suffering
Fine, I guess, but not really. Life certainly has suffering in it but it is not only suffering so it's no more true than saying "Life is eating lunch". To define all life as horrible is a common recruiting tactic for many modern religions because most people look for religion in times of crisis and inevitably there is always a caveat about how you can end all the horror if you spend all your time helping the religion and you give them all your things.
2: The origin of suffering is desire
Again obviously not true. I can stab you and cause you to suffer and that has nothing to do with your misplaced desires. The Dalai llama is as full buddhist as anyone and I could put his balls in a meat grinder and his removal of his own desires wouldn't help him one iota to avoid the suffering that would cause. This is just a standard religious practice of telling believers that all fault lies intrinsically in them. If you place the believer in a position of weakness, fault and blame then you can make them feel like they need your help.
3: Ceasing to desire will end suffering
I just covered that, 2 and 3 are basically the same.
4: The eightfold path will let you end your suffering
Fuck you! First of all you already told us what will end suffering. Second of all the 4th thing on the list of their 4 big things is 8 more things!? Just at base those aren't 4 noble truths, those are 11 truths. The full advice being given could be translated to "Everything is horrible, it's your fault, do everything I say"
Fuck Buddhism. It makes no sense, it's a con, it's seen as peaceful in the west only because they don't have power here and finally fuck Buddhism because if you are a Westerner practicing Buddhism you are probably intelligent, cultured and literate enough to actually learn how the world operates if you just devoted yourself to it for a year or so.

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:10 am

> tussock wrote:Which is better than Nihilism by quite a large margin.

I have to wonder if you get your understanding of nihilism from angsty teenagers who wear a lot of black. Moral objectivism, moral relativism, and moral nihilism are descriptive, not prescriptive. They describe what the universe is, not what you ought. Obviously, specific theories that fall under the broader categories of objectivism and relativism do describe what you ought (praise jeebus) and why you ought (you'll burn in hell if you don't), but that's another beast.
Whereas objectivism and relativism both claim you can make meaningful and valid moral statements (the former claiming you can do so universally, and the latter claiming you can do so only given the contextually important beliefs of the involved actors and communities), nihilism rejects that you can do so entirely - there are no meaningful and valid moral statements. It is not an impetus to disobey or disregard the ethical frameworks you encounter in life like a rebellious teenager, it's just a call to acknowledge that they are arbitrary and mean nothing.
The line between nihilism and relativism is pretty blurry at times, mostly because the extreme end of meta-ethical moral relativism just straight-up is moral nihilism by another name (a name with less derogatory baggage).
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:49 pm

So, I mention how Nihilists have nothing and they turn up and point out that everything is still shit even if you don't mind any more, and there's nothing to have anyway because nothing works and fuck you for thinking otherwise. Also, balls in a vice imagery, because Nihilism.
@Deanrule. They're talking about stranger-danger and stuff. How the masses want something more done to protect their children/home/rights, but actually almost no children/homes/rights were ever being hurt in the first place and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it when they were. The actual "suffering" is almost entirely because of average people's bullshit concerns, expectations, and desires. That stuff isn't new.
Same for beauty treatments and how you're "not pretty", weight management and how you're the "wrong shape", or how the new ipod is suddenly indispensably awesome and the last one you bought sucks because it's not got that thing you're not even going to use. The 5S, man, do you have it. And judging people by all that shit like it matters.
Or when it didn't rain and the crops failed, and you all starved for a while. Worrying about that shit doesn't help either. Wanting rain doesn't make it rain. Desire is useless.
If you think all that angst is useless and wasteful, and you do, and you're working on leaving it behind, and are aware of it's remaining influence on you, well congratulations: Buddism. You may have missed the bit about being nice to people along the way though.
The idea is that while someone might just put your balls in a vice: worrying about that your whole life, or feeling sorry for yourself afterward, that doesn't stop it. It doesn't make you feel any better. So you lost your balls, get over it and enjoy life, you'll be dead soon enough anyway.

> to learn how the world operates if you just devoted yourself to it for a year or so.

Or just accept that trolls are gunna troll and stop expecting anything different. Because banning trolls, it doesn't even work, they just become the moderators. Or regulators in the case of industry.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:23 pm

> tussock wrote:If you think all that angst is useless and wasteful, and you do, and you're working on leaving it behind, and are aware of it's remaining influence on you, well congratulations: Buddism. You may have missed the bit about being nice to people along the way though.

Wow, this is a new level of religious bullshit. I mean, Christians have been talking about how all that stuff about the bible is totally not needed, and it's really just about being kind to people, so you should be a Christian (and proclaim Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and Read the Bible, and be a dick to outsiders) for a long time, but at least they actually take the step of lying to you about what their religion is and then asking you to join it.
You just went with 1) Lie about what the religion is. 2) Immediately declare people to be in the religion whether they like it or not.
Probably step 3) Start insisting they abide by all the shitty other shit that is in your shit religion.

> tussock wrote:

> > to learn how the world operates if you just devoted yourself to it for a year or so.

> Or just accept that trollsmurderers are gunna trollmurder and stop expecting anything different. Because banning trollstrying to stop murderers, it doesn't even work, they just become the moderatorspolice. Or regulators in the case of industry.

And you call us the Nilihsts. We advocate attempting to make the world a better place, as opposed to just letting the murderers go around killing people without trying to change it.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:34 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
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Post by Ancient History » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:35 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:45 am

@ Lie about what the religion is.
I'm reading about it, that's really all it is. There's also the chanting (it's not like they had internet in 600BC), Irish-style isolationist monasteries the British forced on them during the Empire, the centuries of dogma built up around what "being good" and "being free of worry" actually means in endless detail across many languages and cultures, and a little evangelism after the Japanese branch decided the Christian missionaries were onto something.
Buddism is barely a religion. It's a bunch of ancient mind tricks for making people happier without lying to them about magic sky faeries or whatever. I mean, it's covered it ancient cruft and people totally have little wars about dogma and hating on difference when they're Buddists, but they are very much doing it wrong according to their own basic tenants.
@ Christian apologetics.
Jesus wants you to give up, go live in a commune, and wait for the world to end, man. Hippies were proper Christians, everyone else is very much missing the point. Also, communes are cool when you've got a dozen friends and they all listen to you and not cool at all much beyond that. So the teachings of Jesus are pretty fucking stupid and irrelevant even at the time.
@Murderers.
Nearly there, eh. Worrying about them doesn't help. Justice is about helping everyone let it the fuck go and get on with living their lives afterward.
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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:57 pm

> tussock wrote:It's a bunch of ancient mind tricks for making people happier without lying to them about magic sky faeries or whatever.

No, Buddhism does lie to you about magic sky fairies, it's just that those magic sky fairies don't have faces on them because they are magical processes which move your soul around and not magical bearded people that move your soul around, but to have your soul go places that don't suck you should still totally do the things the religion tells you. It's much less personified, but it's still there. Buddhism is only atheistic in the most technical and uninteresting definition of the word.

> tussock wrote:I mean, it's covered it ancient cruft and people totally have little wars about dogma and hating on difference when they're Buddists, but they are very much doing it wrong according to their own basic tenants.

Did you somehow miss the civil war in Sri Lanka? Have you somehow never heard of Japan? I know when people think "terrorism" they think "muslims," but in parts of the world buddhists are the terrorists and muslims are the victims. No one's interested in your No True Scotsman. There is quite a bit of buddhist violence, versions of buddhism that are straight up militaristic, buddhist states, and so on. You can argue that that's not Real ChristianityBuddhism because they're getting their buddhism from texts you don't like, but no one cares because that is the lamest and weakest defense it is possible to make.
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Post by tussock » Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:31 am

> I know when people think "terrorism" they think "muslims,"

I tend to think persecution of minority groups via extra-judicial government powers, secret courts with secret charges and secret evidence, and the same old shit power always gets up to in their empire building escapades.
And dude, the world is a ball of shit and there's really nothing you can do about it, except not stress and be a better person. Of course Buddhists aren't any fucking good at that, they're people, and people are shit, like Buddhism says. It's not wrong because people fail at it, get it wrong, and hurt each other, that's one of it's central messages. That people are fuck ups and hurt each other for no reason, that the world is a bad place.
It's like criticising Machiavellian theories because they work. They're not wrong either, they're just shit.
Plus, what you're talking about doesn't seem to come from Buddhist texts. Sri Lanka's about Post-Colonial Nationalism, Japan's just strait up racism, those things are both much younger than any mass religious movement you mention, and present across them all these days. A lot of the South-East Asian countries were severely fucked up in the immediate post-colonial period by having horrible pro-US dictators installed.
Buddhism doesn't stop that, it assumes it to be true and says to be nice anyway. And further assumes most people will fail at that. It doesn't mean that telling people to chill and be good is useless or somehow responsible for every problem that happens in the region.
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DSMatticus
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Post by DSMatticus » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:28 pm

> tussock wrote:Sri Lanka's about Post-Colonial Nationalism, Japan's just strait up racism, those things are both much younger than any mass religious movement you mention, and present across them all these days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Civil_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Japan
jesus fucking christ
dear buddha in heaven
and all the other superfriends too
You have no idea what you are talking about. Those articles contain gems such as buddhist monk armies, buddhist assassins, murderous buddhist riots, buddhists pissing on peace agreements, and so on and so on. Some of which is very old. Now, obviously it's not as old as Buddhism itself. But you know what? Protestantism isn't nearly as old as Christianity. If this were a conversation about Christianity, would you tell me protestants aren't real christians?
The rest of the post is just a really creepy call for complacency. You know what? Complacency with shittiness is a stupid idea. Worrying about whether or not there's going to be rain next month and desiring not to starve is the reason people build reservoirs for irrigation, and then less people starve. It's amazing. Worry and desire are actually all around pretty healthy, and it's only at extremes of either do you run into dysfunction.
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Post by tussock » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:17 am

> Those articles contain gems such as buddhist monk armies, buddhist assassins, murderous buddhist riots, buddhists pissing on peace agreements, and so on and so on.

Who the fuck are you arguing against? That's what I just said right then.

> The rest of the post is just a really creepy call for complacency.

You read really weird shit into my posts, man.
1: World bad (because people and everything else).
2: Do good (or more good).
3: Don't worry (about the things you can't change).
4: Happiness (about doing good).
Or do I need even less words to stop you fucking up your comprehension. Is it the numbers that upset you? Is it because you just hate everything different? Is it that someone found something vaguely well-meaning and you just need to shit on it in public so everyone knows how butt-hurt you are about nothing at all?
Wait, I get it. I'm talking about the theory of Buddhism (largely from ignorance, like you), and you're talking about the wider practices of people who are nominally Buddhist (also, you know, in ignorance). Hint: those are different subjects.
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Post by DSMatticus » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:48 am

> tussock wrote:Who the fuck are you arguing against? That's what I just said right then.

No, that is not what you said. What you said is blah blah blah post-colonialism in Sri Lanka, which has absolutely to do with whether or not buddhist institutions within Sri Lanka were telling the government to murder the shit out of the rebels and whether or not buddhist institutions within Sri Lanka have organized a handful of violent anti-muslim riots (both true). And you also said blah blah Japan is racist, which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Japan has a rich history of internal violence between various religious and political factions, no small number of which have been buddhist (also a thing that is true). You mentioned weird not-explanations, and I am telling you those are not-explanations and giving you links to the actual historical events being discussed so you can go forth and learn how to say things that are not entirely useless on this topic.

> tussock wrote:Or do I need even less words to stop you fucking up your comprehension. Is it the numbers that upset you? Is it because you just hate everything different? Is it that someone found something vaguely well-meaning and you just need to shit on it in public so everyone knows how butt-hurt you are about nothing at all?

You could start by describing buddhism instead of the serenity prayer or whatever bullshit you're making up now. They're not the same thing, if you didn't know, and it would make my life a lot easier. You might even say it'd get rid of a little of my suffering.

> tussock wrote:Wait, I get it. I'm talking about the theory of Buddhism (largely from ignorance, like you), and you're talking about the wider practices of people who are nominally Buddhist (also, you know, in ignorance). Hint: those are different subjects.

No, I am talking about buddhist institutions calling openly for violence and citing thousand year old texts for their justifications. I am talking about openly militaristic sects of buddhism more than a thousand years old. Those are not different subjects. Those are kinds of Buddhism, and you are No True Scotsmanning them by claiming they're doing it wrong and that makes it not Real Buddhism(tm). It is exactly like arguing that violent Christians aren't Real Christians(tm) because they're doing it wrong, therefore Christianity is the religion of love, peace, and tolerance. Always. No exceptions.
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Post by tussock » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:28 am

I think there's interesting discussions to be had about theories, including the core tenants of religions, even ones that most people don't understand and get wrong, even when they get it wrong in the name of that theory.
Like how communist theory (Marxism/Leninism, if you will) is an interesting topic that people often derail by complaining about the repressive thought-crime dictatorship of Stalin's USSR (just because opposed states called him a communist (even though he clearly sat in the dictatorship stage of Marxist social evolution theory, with no devolution of powers at all)).
I get that there's "Buddhist institutions" (it's capitalised in English because it's named after a person or place, not out of any sense of respect, dufus) that have nothing at all to do with the basic theory of Buddhism any more, nor the historic practice of it, where guys in neat orange robes run the street beating the shit out of people for thinking the wrong things about how to be happy. Thank you for contributing? I guess, whatever.
That people will do crap like that to each other is in fact a core piece of Buddhist theory though. In a way that's different to most other theologies. Christianity posits a just God who only tests those who will benefit from it, who would only give babies to rape victims if they needed one. That if you're doing wrong, God might just teach you a personal lesson through suffering, and all suffering is kinda like that, so follow the rules or else.
That's totally different to the posits of Buddhism, which say that life is just terrible for indecipherable reasons and there's usually nothing you can do about it (and despite that, you should totally do what you can to be good to people in a self-aware fashion). Which is a bit out of date in light of science and the current peace and bounty and so on, but you can see where it comes from and how it could apply today.
PC, SJW, anti-fascist, not being a dick, or working on it, he/him.
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:57 am

> tussock wrote:That people will do crap like that to each other is in fact a core piece of Buddhist theory though. In a way that's different to most other theologies. Christianity posits a just God who only tests those who will benefit from it, who would only give babies to rape victims if they needed one. That if you're doing wrong, God might just teach you a personal lesson through suffering, and all suffering is kinda like that, so follow the rules or else.

If only there were some kind of book in the Bible that proved you to be completely clueless and wrong on every single point. They could call it The Book of Occupation. Or maybe The Book of Profession.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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