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Krusk
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### [KFH] Duration Mechanic

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Post by Krusk » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:34 pm

So reading the 13th age flames now has me paranoid that my resolution mechanic is terrible and I should feel bad.
Durations
All day - This lasts 24 hours, or an entire in game day. You turn it on every morning and forget about it, but other people could potentially turn it off. Regardless this ends if you take an nights rest and you refresh your spells.
1 hour - This spell lasts for one hour. Then it ends. Generally can be used for a few encounters if needed.
5 Minutes - This spell lasts for 5 minutes, or a single combat encounter.
Save or die - These spells allow a saving throw to avoid their effects. If you fail the save you generally get a new saving throw at the end of every one of your turns until you pass.
Save or die is the one I'm concerned about in particular. Will this be annoying to track? I don't think so, but who knows. Also, does this effectively help reign in traditional 3.5 save or dies so they are less lethal.
Sample Spell
Spiderweb
[irrelevant removed]
You spray a cone of webbing 30ft in front of you. Anyone caught in the blast must make a reflex save or be immobile. They get a new save each round if they fail.
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Duke Flauros
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### Re: [KFH] Duration Mechanic

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Post by Duke Flauros » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:43 pm

> Krusk wrote:So reading the 13th age flames now has me paranoid that my resolution mechanic is terrible and I should feel bad.
> Durations
> All day - This lasts 24 hours, or an entire in game day. You turn it on every morning and forget about it, but other people could potentially turn it off. Regardless this ends if you take an nights rest and you refresh your spells.
> 1 hour - This spell lasts for one hour. Then it ends. Generally can be used for a few encounters if needed.
> 5 Minutes - This spell lasts for 5 minutes, or a single combat encounter.
> Save or die - These spells allow a saving throw to avoid their effects. If you fail the save you generally get a new saving throw at the end of every one of your turns until you pass.
> Save or die is the one I'm concerned about in particular. Will this be annoying to track? I don't think so, but who knows. Also, does this effectively help reign in traditional 3.5 save or dies so they are less lethal.
> Sample Spell
> Spiderweb
> [irrelevant removed]
> You spray a cone of webbing 30ft in front of you. Anyone caught in the blast must make a reflex save or be immobile. They get a new save each round if they fail.

SODs/SOSs aren't the spells you should be worried about. The ones you should be worried about are the DNSs, like forcecage, reverse gravity, and solid fog.
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:50 pm

Those are really lumped in when I talk about SODs. Because "No save now you are trapped in a box while we throw stuff at you for a week until you die after combat finishes" is basically the same thing.
For example, the closest to force cage it directly has is "Electric fence" which is basically a force cage that does damage and stuns when you leave, making it hard to leave.
Note that because its a new system from the group up instead of a 3.5 conversion I simply don't include a lot of the most problematic spells or they aren't as problematic. Reverse Gravity isn't a big deal because most classes have flight or flight equivalents built into their progressions before a spell that does anything like that is online.
Its a 3.5/4e hybrid clone in that it uses a d20, has skills, classes and the 6 stats, but thats about it.
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:07 am

You may want a timekeeping system on the exploration/searching scale (so there's a table of things that all take 10 minutes each), so that you can track your 1-hour duration without being arbitrary about it all the time.
Also, until dawn, not 24 hours, saves some bookkeeping.
Rolling saves all the time is OK if you have a fixed "roll all your saves" phase, they're interesting enough effects (like action denial) that you can all remember them, and it's a fixed 4e-style 10+ roll (or AD&D-style) that doesn't require extra tracking.
Personally I prefer action costs and "common sense" to end effects, so you're on fire until you "stop drop and roll" to put yourself out, or you move through water, or someone casts a cold spell, or whatever. Low level people and the wounded burn brighter. 8]
At once (what? was that it?)
1 Minute (takes an action in combat)
10 Minutes (solves one problem)
1 Hour (solves a few problems)
8 Hours (not while resting / only to rest)
Until dawn (always on / at-will)
Curse (do not want)
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:56 pm

Rolling saves. Its not like 4e with 10+, its 3.5's roll vs DC set by caster. Would that annoy you if I said "roll to save vs this effect, DC 14" and then at the end of your turn you were required to track that you need to save vs 14. In my experience most people hated 4e saves. Probably more because you save vs boring stuff and less the mechanic itself, but i don't want any dislike by association.
I can't get into the 4e mechanic where its basically a duration tracking system and effects everyone basically evenly. I prefer that blasting the strong guy with a will effect hurts him more than blasting the caster.
All effects do something, or stop someone from doing something. One of the goals was not to include spells that give a +X to anything. Grow makes you large size, which may change your stats because of that. But there is no "Accurate. +2 to hit for the encounter" spells.
I like the "At Dawn" limiter. Will save some typing and clarification text. (Although i finished spells the other day, so really it adds typing)
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:22 am

4e saves got off on the wrong foot because of the bullshit marketing. They were said to be a solution to the rocket-science of counting backwards toward 0 in a regular manner, but then they piled all sorts of complexity on them that made counting look like child's play.
Kindof like if 3e had solved the problem of THAC0 and then loaded up the new "simple" mechanic with per-round and per-attack variable attack bonuses all over the place that made the whole mechanic harder to use for no obvious gain. Oh, wait.
Uh, and yes, you've added even more complexity and things to track for an extended time than 4e did there. The solo monster doesn't just end up with four different conditions to track, but also four different numbers to end them, rolled on different saves. All you're getting is the chance to roll more dice on your turn even when you're fucked up, but if it's hard work you're just being further punished.
Ahem. "Dawn" is how the Drow keep track of time: the Continual Flames all sputter out for a few seconds before re-lighting themselves. Magic gets really weird up in the arctic circle, and the Ice Queen is notorious for exploiting her once-per-year dawn.
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:24 pm

The way I'm seeing it is that you have a some added complexity, and in return you get a level of added combat choices.
In KFH - You can blast the wizard and target his fort knowing he will probably be down for some time. You can do the same for fighter and will.
In 4e you still target the wizard's fort, but if successful he is back in the same time as if you had targeted his will.
Are you saying you don't think the complexity is worth it?
Haven't run too many playtests at this point outside the "Do these abilities sound cool to you" phase. I will make an effort to see where others stand on this issue. If they all think its annoying to track maybe I'll dump it.
I don't think it will be too much to track, as most effects that give a save to end a duration usually take someone "out of combat" until they pass. Stuff like sleep. Sure you could blast him with sleep, blindness, and hold person but that rarely ever happens.
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:31 am

It's not a choice for the player rolling the saves over and over, it's just paperwork they have to fill in to make the suck go away. It is a choice for the attacker, but they're not rolling all those dice to pay for it.
You could get a similar attacker reward by just making the saves more different, or adding riders to the good saves like evasion or mettle (half duration or damage).
Rolling dice can be nice though, if it does stuff. So, say a paralysed character must save to end, but each failed save adds 2d6 subdual damage or something. Then they're saving vs damage, which is valuable, and ending the effect is a bonus. That's still not an interesting choice though, just a mechanic that keeps you at the table a while for a reason you might not hate.
Also handy for the DM that the pile of sleeping Goblins only get the one save, because they either wake up or they're out of hit points and can't try any more. Instant mook simplification.
As you know, you don't want that mechanic if you're just "on fire" or something, because you already have actions to use and can just spend one to put it out as an empowering choice (or grapple the bastard who set you alight and share the love, because empowered players are awesome).
As for tracking the DCs, that may just be me. I don't enjoy the variable DCs of d20 at the best of times, and while players do enjoy building their target numbers up to impossible heights I don't like the effects of that on the game.
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:36 pm

> tussock wrote:It's not a choice for the player rolling the saves over and over, it's just paperwork they have to fill in to make the suck go away. It is a choice for the attacker, but they're not rolling all those dice to pay for it

Exactly. Its a choice you as the attacker makes, and the defender doesn't enjoy it.
Some of the riders have effects like "Each time you fail the save things get worse for you until ___, which is the worst". Thats probably like 20%. Would something like that expanded for every spell alleviate some of that for you?
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:32 am

Perhaps you could physically throw a brick at anyone whose character fails a save. They wouldn't enjoy that either. Good times.
I didn't like where 4e went with "fail multiple saves to fall asleep", because then no one ever fell asleep, not even the mooks. I'm of the school where if a spell is called "sleep", that's what it does, even if they quickly wake up again.
So, uh, sleep -> slowed -> normal works, but slow -> sleep doesn't. For me. Reward for rolling well, addictive. Adding a small hit point drain drops the weakest types out of the battle and saves rolling too many dice as DM.
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:28 pm

> tussock wrote:Perhaps you could physically throw a brick at anyone whose character fails a save. They wouldn't enjoy that either. Good times.

Included.
Actually, while I've got a thread with a responder, what do you think of direct metagame abilities. Most of my "Expert" classes have one.
For example A minor one - the Bard gets to be responsible for all music during the session. (as a freebie ability tossed in, in addition to their real ones)
A major one - The ninja gets to declare that they were actually disguised as an unimportant NPC during any scene in which they aren't present. Specifically usable only if their PC is dead. "I didn't die when that dragon ate me, I actually faked my death and have been infiltrating the ___" sort of thing.
Another minor - The Gambler is supposed to literally bring a deck of cards to draw from for many of his powers.
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:16 am

That looks pretty sweet. I'm going to meta-game the shit out of those sort of abilities, but that's the point, right? Is there some limit to how often I can dispose of my own corpse as an Assassin before entering various rooms, only by player creativity?
Like, the Thief hides by getting under the table, backstabs by "adjusting" his dice rolls, leaves the room to sneak safely away from battle. Heh, divination spells let you look over the DM's shoulder for a while. So many possibilities. Might work better than dice.
Why have I not thought of this before?
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:32 pm

> tussock wrote:That looks pretty sweet. I'm going to meta-game the shit out of those sort of abilities, but that's the point, right? Is there some limit to how often I can dispose of my own corpse as an Assassin before entering various rooms, only by player creativity?

Not particularly. I mean, if your PC is constantly dead the other PCs will probably get annoyed adventuring with you and ask you to reroll. But if not, I've got no problem with it.
Most/many classes have higher level self resurrection abilities. This just happens to be the ninjas.

> Like, the Thief hides by getting under the table, backstabs by "adjusting" his dice rolls, leaves the room to sneak safely away from battle.

Nothing like that in combat sorry. They do get to reroll dice fairly often, which is basically the same as adjusting your die rolls.

> Heh, divination spells let you look over the DM's shoulder for a while. So many possibilities. Might work better than dice.

Basically.
Any legit thoughts on this, or why its bad outside of being different? Or is being different scary and bad by default?
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:25 am

That is my legit thoughts. Sorry to go from cold to hot so fast, but I think meta-gaming abilities could be awesome as a class function. Never occurred to me before. Some people always want to meta-game, and it's been a bit frustrating over the years to either discourage it or try not to reward it, and they are often playing Rogue/Bard types.
Letting people meta-game as a class ability sounds like it would make everyone happier. I don't have to do it with my characters and NPCs (Huzzah!), some other person doing it is only gaining the advantage the designer expected them to gain with some hope of it being balanced in terms of spotlight time and competency. Solves an old problem by letting everyone have what they have always wanted without breaking anything too badly. Top stuff. It's always been what divination spells are for anyway.
But yeh, as a proud (if somewhat lame) power-gamer, I would meta-game the shit out of any meta-game abilities, so you might want to put limits on things that people could be obnoxious with if overused, so it doesn't need to come down to peer pressure.
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Krusk
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Post by Krusk » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:56 pm

Gotcha, it came off as totally sarcastic. Glad you like it.
Here is the actual rules text for the assassin (forgot i changed the name)

> Deep Cover – 1/month while using the “Lurking in Shadows” ability, the assassin can actually reveal himself as a relatively unimportant NPC who has been disguised. Whether this NPC never existed, was disposed of, or is held somewhere is up to the assassin. It turns out the assassin character has been under cover at this location, gathering important information to make his move. Once this ability is used, the assassin is revealed and the cover potentially blown. This ability can be used if the assassin character is dead, and has been for a period of up to one month. If used posthumously, the assassin is not dead, but was faking death.

> Lurking in Shadows – 1/week, while the assassin character is not present, the assassin can reveal himself as having been hidden during the majority of the scene until this very moment. Treat this character as having had the hidden condition, and immune to any negative effects of the environment until the moment this ability is declared used. From this point onwards, the assassin’s character is present at the new location. This is not a teleportation effect, and the assassin should be suitably vague about explaining how they got there.

So apparently I realized you shouldn't let them just constantly do it and put timers on it.
The idea behind lurking was that assassin type characters love to go off on their own and stealth about doing stuff. A lot of the time the party says "Fine, while you do that we go report in to the king". This ability lets them say "oh no im totally there now".
A lot of these metagame abilities are granted to the "skilled user" classes as class features because i couldn't find a way to keep skills relavent at high levels. So now you just get to meta-game do stuff, very similar to spells.
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