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## A Discussion on Sundering

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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Mon May 18, 2009 9:48 pm

> Kaelik wrote:Fuck you PR. You can fucking apologize. I deal with a lot of shit with you. Next time you pull shit like this I'm just putting you on ignore.

> Kaelik wrote:I prefer to play a game where NPCs use the best tactics available to them.

Allow me to reiterate myself from earlier in the thread:

> Psychic Robot wrote:See, the funny thing is that you can't actually address anything that I've said because all your arguments are strawmen. Did I ever say that the DM shouldn't use NPCs that can sunder? Did I ever say game disjunction was a fine and dandy spell? Did I ever say that DMs who use NPCs that sunder are evil? No, no, and no, and you're a doodie-head, to boot.
> Quite frankly, I find your behavior to be pathetic. You are worse than people who blatantly evade counterarguments and rebuttals. No, you couldn't just do that--you had to go and lie about them. Think about that. You are lying in a feeble attempt to win a debate. About D&D. On the Internet.
> Consider what kind of dog that makes you. Consider how much of a sniveling toad you are. Consider how weak you are, that you need to shield your fragile ego with a web of lies. And to top it off, you're doing this on the Internet, with people you will never see. That's sad.
> Either put up an actual argument or shut the fuck up.

> Ambushes do occur at close range, especially with Invisibility Sphere in existence. The outsider attack squadron that can cripple you at 30ft report to boss is not crazy in a world where NPCs play intelligently, and sundering gear is not easily repaired.

Invisibility sphere works, yes. But for one round only, since the effect is going to end when they attack.
Re: Angelic wank-squad. We've established that a) this doesn't work with MM angels (since they don't have Ranged Sunder), b) it's a dick move, and c) that you still haven't answered why the BBEG wants to break the PCs' equipment.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Mon May 18, 2009 10:18 pm

> Psychic Robot wrote:Allow me to reiterate myself from earlier in the thread:

Allow me to paraphrase from earlier in the thread:
I fucking do have arguments. They are the thing that everyone but you argues against. Because everyone but you actually argues. You on the other hand make up the term 'angelic wank squad' to decry arguments without addressing them. Exactly like Roy uses the term Sundertard.
Then you turn around and whine about how everything anyone has ever said in disagreement with you is a fucking Strawman, because you can't ever stand behind your assertions when it comes to actual evidence.
Then you call me out for using terms like 'Angelic wank squad' to ignore your argument. Which is fucking hilarious, and only further demonstrates your inability to carry on an actual argument of any kind.

> Invisibility sphere works, yes. But for one round only, since the effect is going to end when they attack.

Yes, that's right, in one round they sunder 12 of the parties most important items. Then they leave. Then they report to their boss to show up and kill the weakened party.

> Re: Angelic wank-squad. We've established that a) this doesn't work with MM angels (since they don't have Ranged Sunder), b) it's a dick move, and c) that you still haven't answered why the BBEG wants to break the PCs' equipment.

No, what you baldly asserted is that:
a) It's wrong to give core angels noncore feats? Frankly, this is the first time you have ever asserted that.
b) It's a dick move to have a group of enemies use the best possible tactic for their abilities.
c) It's okay for players to be rewarded for breaking other peoples shit, but it's wrong if NPCs expect to gain as much from it as PCs, and not lose more.
What I am asserting is that:
a) Core feats suck, also I like monsters especially as a player, but also as a DM to be customized based on tactics, and optimized the same way that PCs are, with non core feats printed later, and with a certain type of combat they are good at, and have trained in. Which means some of them are going to be good at Sundering, and it's going to be the ones who can make it a viable tactic.
b) NPCs should use any tactics they can think of, including specialized ones, and even ones that might hurt the players in the long run, if they are useful to the NPCs in both the short and long run.
c) The BBEG wants to break their equipment as a very effective debuff. He will have this done whenever the actions of sundering to him are worth the debuff applied. He will do this without concern for the value of the items he is breaking, because he, exactly like PCs, will never come out worse for using Sunder. This is your original assertion, that PCs should always come out the same for using the tactic. And I think that if PCs should, so should NPCs.
If the NPCs should feel obligated to consider the value of items they destroy, then PCs should as well, and your original post can die in a fire.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Mon May 18, 2009 10:32 pm

Kaelik -- giving intelligently selected PHB (or MM appendix feats) feats to monster manual monsters is often a massive power-up. Diving through splatbooks is even more ridiculous.
To take outsiders, especially angels who are subtype [awesome] and then optimize them is absolutely a dick move unless you're going to be honest about their real CR.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Mon May 18, 2009 11:29 pm

> Boolean wrote:Kaelik -- giving intelligently selected PHB (or MM appendix feats) feats to monster manual monsters is often a massive power-up. Diving through splatbooks is even more ridiculous.
> To take outsiders, especially angels who are subtype [awesome] and then optimize them is absolutely a dick move unless you're going to be honest about their real CR.

1) I am honest about their CR. But the fact is, it's not that massive, and they need it to deal with Shadowcraft Mages/Uberchargering Frenzied Berserkers/and Druids.
2) None of this was angels who are just Clerics of level X with SLAs, cool abilities, all good saves, and full BAB. It was Archons. Who are just like Angels, except with no casting. AKA, the part that really makes them awesome.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Tue May 19, 2009 3:41 am

> Kaelik wrote:I fucking do have arguments. Also, more words go here.

You must be arguing with someone else, then, as you're not arguing against anything I've said.

> Yes, that's right, in one round they sunder 12 of the parties most important items. Then they leave. Then they report to their boss to show up and kill the weakened party.

Are we talking angels or non-angelic wank-squad? Because if the DM isn't being a dick--namely, by not using the angelic wank-squad--then you're killing NPCs with NPC wealth and recouping part of your losses. It's entirely probable that the NPCs don't even make it back to report to their boss. You're also dismissing the level of the PCs. If the PCs and sunder squad are all of equal level, then you've placed the PCs in an encounter inappropriate for their level. Four fifth-level fighters is EL 9.
So what level is the party, and what level is the BBEG? If the BBEG is going to use scry-and-die, then that's an asshat tactic. It shouldn't be in the game. It might be effective, but it's the antithesis of fun.
And this doesn't even take into account the fact that the BBEG is breaking his own stuff--something we're going to move onto in a moment.

> a) It's wrong to give core angels noncore feats? Frankly, this is the first time you have ever asserted that.

If you're taking monsters and optimizing them, then the CR is going to be higher, which means you're being more of a dick.
EDIT: I should add, "In terms of optimizing the angelic wank-squad," not optimizing monsters in general, lest that turn into a side argument. There's nothing wrong with optimizing monsters; there's something wrong with optimizing monsters to screw the PCs over.

> b) It's a dick move to have a group of enemies use the best possible tactic for their abilities.

See, we have another strawman. What I said was that it's a dick move to use the angelic wank-squad. You're trying to turn my argument into "play the monsters like mobs." Now you're going to cry about, "Bawww, but the angelic wank-squad IS the best possible tactic! You're against that!" Yes, I am against the angelic wank-squad, but I'm not against the enemies playing intelligently. However, when the most intelligent tactic is a game-breaker, you should not use it.
The BBEG does not use scry-and-die because it shits all over the game.

> c) It's okay for players to be rewarded for breaking other peoples shit, but it's wrong if NPCs expect to gain as much from it as PCs, and not lose more.

The entire reason that the players are "rewarded" for breaking shit--they're really not, by the way; they're just compensated, which is a big difference--is so that the game remains in balance. If you deviate too sharply from WBL, the game is going to break. The entire WBL system is arbitrary and retarded, but DMs use it because that's how the game works.
The NPCs do not expect to gain as much from the PCs because the entire WBL system is metagame, and they are not aware of metagame concepts--just like the PCs' characters. The NPC knows that wealth is power, and there is no reason for him to destroy perfectly valuable magical items. Since the players don't know they are being compensated--honestly, are you going to say, "Okay, guys, if you break that sword, I'm going to give you an extra 1,000 gp in crystals?"--they should have similar reservations.

> What I am asserting is that:
> a) Core feats suck, also I like monsters especially as a player, but also as a DM to be customized based on tactics, and optimized the same way that PCs are, with non core feats printed later, and with a certain type of combat they are good at, and have trained in. Which means some of them are going to be good at Sundering, and it's going to be the ones who can make it a viable tactic.

Yes. This makes sense. But you're also raising the CR of the monsters by optimizing.

> b) NPCs should use any tactics they can think of, including specialized ones, and even ones that might hurt the players in the long run, if they are useful to the NPCs in both the short and long run.

This is also true. However, I would limit this to game-breakage: when the BBEG gates in an epic-level monster to wipe the floor with the party because it's the most intelligent tactic, you've ruined the game.

> c) The BBEG wants to break their equipment as a very effective debuff. He will have this done whenever the actions of sundering to him are worth the debuff applied. He will do this without concern for the value of the items he is breaking, because he, exactly like PCs, will never come out worse for using Sunder. This is your original assertion, that PCs should always come out the same for using the tactic. And I think that if PCs should, so should NPCs.

But you're missing the most important part: the PCs don't know they are coming out the same. Again, WBL is a metagame concept. The characters don't know about it. To them, breaking a magic item is a bad thing because it's a useful magic item. If the NPC sees sundering as being worth the loss of the magic items, then he should sunder.
But he still shouldn't use the angelic wank-squad because that's a dick move. You just don't do it.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Tue May 19, 2009 4:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Roy
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Post by Roy » Tue May 19, 2009 10:32 am

First off, fuck you Kaelik. Fuck your bullshit spouting too.
Second off... If the BBEG does use scry and die, he lands right in a (Greater) Anticipate Teleportation. The party takes 1-3 rounds to prepare, almost as if the BBEG had cast a Time Stop affecting his side and not the PC side. He then gets annihilated by readied actions and/or surprise round and/or won initiative before he can even act. Oops.
Third off, fuck you PR. The circle drivel has long since grown tiresome. The reason why Sundertards get their name is because only the stupid advocate it. Think about that a moment.
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Orion
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Post by Orion » Tue May 19, 2009 10:56 am

Roy, a big part of why I have trouble arguing with you is that you presume access to high-level spells from various supplements.
I know scrolls and what-not are affordable, but this business of busting out Anticipate Teleport, and those obscure rez spells (Revenance and Revivify?) as if they'll always or commonly be available doesn't jibe with my play experiences.
That's not necessarily wrong in a purely theoretical conversation but when it comes to a practical concern like how to make sundering work in one person's actual game, it makes it hard to stay on the same page.
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Roy
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Post by Roy » Tue May 19, 2009 11:16 am

> Boolean wrote:Roy, a big part of why I have trouble arguing with you is that you presume access to high-level spells from various supplements.
> I know scrolls and what-not are affordable, but this business of busting out Anticipate Teleport, and those obscure rez spells (Revenance and Revivify?) as if they'll always or commonly be available doesn't jibe with my play experiences.
> That's not necessarily wrong in a purely theoretical conversation but when it comes to a practical concern like how to make sundering work in one person's actual game, it makes it hard to stay on the same page.

High level?
Anticipate Teleportation is level 3.
Revenance is level 4.
Revivify is level 5.
Greater Anticipate Teleportation is level 6.
By comparison Scrying is level 4, Teleport is level 5, and both Greater Teleport and Greater Scrying are level 7.
So not only are they low to mid level, they are lower level than the things they are meant to counter. Also, both Anticipate and the Greater version have 24 hour durations.
Lol, what?
Further, every single one of those are in the Spell Compendium, a common source book because it puts most everything in one place. Unless they're in core that is.
So either you're core only and not having to worry about ranged Sundertards but are having to worry about scry and die, or you aren't and the reverse is true.
Or you can just disregard Sundertardation as invalid.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Tue May 19, 2009 1:09 pm

> Boolean wrote:Kaelik -- giving intelligently selected PHB (or MM appendix feats) feats to monster manual monsters is often a massive power-up. Diving through splatbooks is even more ridiculous.
> To take outsiders, especially angels who are subtype [awesome] and then optimize them is absolutely a dick move unless you're going to be honest about their real CR.

Eh. I do this all the time. If the players optimize and dumpster dive, why not me?
Templates, feats, equipment... whatever. I think its a completely legit DM tactic to keep the enemies interesting. You obviously don't want every creature custom since you still want to have hordes of enemies ripe for the cutting down, but mid-tier lieutenants I'd think were prime fodder for this sort of thing.
Last edited by mean_liar on Tue May 19, 2009 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Roy
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Post by Roy » Tue May 19, 2009 1:31 pm

> mean_liar wrote:

> > Boolean wrote:Kaelik -- giving intelligently selected PHB (or MM appendix feats) feats to monster manual monsters is often a massive power-up. Diving through splatbooks is even more ridiculous.
> > To take outsiders, especially angels who are subtype [awesome] and then optimize them is absolutely a dick move unless you're going to be honest about their real CR.

> Eh. I do this all the time. If the players optimize and dumpster dive, why not me?
> Templates, feats, equipment... whatever. I think its a completely legit DM tactic to keep the enemies interesting. You obviously don't want every creature custom since you still want to have hordes of enemies ripe for the cutting down, but mid-tier lieutenants I'd think were prime fodder for this sort of thing.

Or you just make new 'standards'. Same monster, different feats. Just removing all the Alertness and Toughness spam is a good idea.
Pretty much a requirement as most Outsiders aren't even a threat without doing this. The good ones hold up the best, amusingly. But most of the ones you'd actually fight?
Similarly, pretty much everything gets some sort of treasure allotment.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Tue May 19, 2009 4:37 pm

> Third off, fuck you PR. The circle drivel has long since grown tiresome. The reason why Sundertards get their name is because only the stupid advocate it. Think about that a moment.

Roy, give me a break. Seriously. I laugh over at WotC or MW or Paizo or wherever else because it's funny, and those people are too stupid to have a real debate. I've rebutted your points. The ball's in your court, as they say. Either return it or stop calling me an idiot.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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Roy
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Post by Roy » Tue May 19, 2009 4:40 pm

> Psychic Robot wrote:

> > Third off, fuck you PR. The circle drivel has long since grown tiresome. The reason why Sundertards get their name is because only the stupid advocate it. Think about that a moment.

> Roy, give me a break. Seriously. I laugh over at WotC or MW or Paizo or wherever else because it's funny, and those people are too stupid to have a real debate. I've rebutted your points. The ball's in your court, as they say. Either return it or stop calling me an idiot.

You don't have a damn point. It's a fucking ball rolling all over the place without stopping. You basically do nothing but contradict yourself over and over. I don't know what the fuck you're saying, and you don't know either. Successful Troll is Successful. Now stop it with the fucking circle drivel.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot » Tue May 19, 2009 4:41 pm

If that's how you want it, then so be it.

> Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

> Ant wrote:

> > Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

> You do not seem to do anything.

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