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virgil
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### Definition of Christianity

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Post by virgil » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:41 am

I've heard various arguments. Catholics aren't Christian, Mormons aren't Christian, etc. The strangest one I've heard so far is that apparently one of the definitions of Christian is "baptised in a manner approved by the Catholic Church" (which mormons don't do). I don't even know how to compare that kind of definition...
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:42 am

A Christian is one who follows the (supposed) teachings of Christ. Or who supposedly does so.
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Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:41 am

> virgileso wrote:I've heard various arguments. Catholics aren't Christian, Mormons aren't Christian, etc. The strangest one I've heard so far is that apparently one of the definitions of Christian is "baptised in a manner approved by the Catholic Church" (which mormons don't do). I don't even know how to compare that kind of definition...

Maybe there's just no real Christians?
Seriously though, it's just the "no true scotsman" fallacy (unless the person actually gives a consistent qualitative definition, such as the "baptised in a manner approved by the catholic church" line. Which of course would exclude the "Catholics aren't Christian" argument).
Last edited by Caedrus on Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:06 am

They all are Christian, but claim each other is not, which is stupid. They should be calling each other heretics or heathens, not "not Christians".
I think Frank brought this up before, in a debate when we had both a crazy Catholic and a crazy Protestant. I recall it involved the Protestant saying "I dunno', that worship of Saints and stuff sounds too much like polytheism." then it was pointed out that the Bible itself says there are other gods - you're just not allowed to like them.

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The Lunatic Fringe
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Post by The Lunatic Fringe » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:49 am

There is no universal standard of or authority on Christianity.
Well, except for God, but he ain't talking.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:34 am

> angelfromanotherpin wrote:A Christian is one who follows the (supposed) teachings of Christ. Or who supposedly does so.

I think this is as close as you're going to get.
There are a lot of divisions (catholic/protestant), and those are further divided. Ultimately, "one who follows the teachings of Christ" is probably the best, broad definition you can get.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:13 pm

Or you could use that one definition I mentioned, you're not a Christian if your faith doesn't do baptisms right (and sacramental theology was developed long before Mormonism)
Last edited by virgil on Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:54 pm

I was baptised, and I think Christians are suffering from fear-based delusions and need to seek counselling.
Your definition makes me a Christian despite having burned that bridge behind me long ago.

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tzor
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Post by tzor » Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:03 pm

The definition for “Christian” is by definition nebulous because no one has a trademark on the term. Let’s ask Webster:

> 1 a : one who believes or professes or is assumed to believe in Jesus Christ and the truth as taught by him : an adherent of Christianity : one who has accepted the Christian religious and moral principles of life : one who has faith in and has pledged allegiance to God thought of as revealed in Christ : one whose life is conformed to the doctrines of Christ <in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians -- Acts 11:26 (Revised Standard Version)>

The Catholic Church (technically speaking the “Catholic Church” has never quite gotten the whole idea of being a “denomination”) considers baptism as the entry point into the “Church.” The sacrament of baptism requires three conditions, matter (water), form (Trinitarian baptism), and intent (wanting to be baptized). The minister of the sacrament is literally anyone; yes even a non Christian can baptize.
But that has nothing to do with the definition of “Christian,” for one can believe in Christ in various degrees. (Naturally I would probably add “… until one reaches fulfillment of Christian unity within the Church.”)
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Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:44 pm

> Koumei wrote:I was baptised, and I think Christians are suffering from fear-based delusions and need to seek counselling.
> Your definition makes me a Christian despite having burned that bridge behind me long ago.

I actually had that argument used on me as well. When I said I wasn't Christian, I was told "No, you are Christian, because you were baptised!"
So... people actually do use that definition. As for why it doesn't make sense... well... we're talking about Christian arguments here...
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:50 pm

If...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F
...is 12 screens long and a old, old question and they're nominally a TRIBE then I imagine that a morphic "you-are-one-if-you-want-to-be-one" religion is probably a little harder to nail down.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:22 pm

I have heard people say "I'm not a Christian, I'm Catholic"...
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Caedrus
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Post by Caedrus » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:42 pm

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:I have heard people say "I'm not a Christian, I'm Catholic"...

LOL, yeah. That's about the point when you know someone does not in fact have two brain cells to rub together.
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:57 am

Well
This guy is getting federal funding for a study about ethnic and cultural differences to healthcare where the self-identification demographics list "mormon" separate from the two main categories of christian (Catholic and Protestant) and the many sub categories under each.
So I guess the US government doesn't consider Mormons to be Christians - but we all know you can't trust the government
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NativeJovian
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Post by NativeJovian » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:40 am

> CatharzGodfoot wrote:I have heard people say "I'm not a Christian, I'm Catholic"...

That's because, in the US at least, "Christian" without any descriptors refers almost exclusively to Protestant, which is obviously different enough from Catholicism to warrant explicit differentiation. Granted, they could just say "I'm Catholic" without the "I'm not Christian" part, but it's not like what they're saying is completely nonsensical even if it is incorrect.
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Post by Maj » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:28 am

I think the Angel and the dictionary are good definitions. You can claim Christianity if you believe Jesus is your model, and you try to emulate him.

> Koumei wrote:I recall it involved the Protestant saying "I dunno', that worship of Saints and stuff sounds too much like polytheism."

I have to admit that despite attending the Mormon church, I like the idea of saints. Seriously... Why bother Jesus when you need help finding your keys? Go bother someone who specializes in finding your stuff (St. Anthony is big in my family).
The only problem that I really have with that is that - as far as I know - the Catholic Church is one of those that believes God is all powerful. So it's not like you're really alleviating the burden on Him by having St. Anthony interceed on your behalf.
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Ganbare Gincun
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Post by Ganbare Gincun » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:39 am

This article clearly indicates that baptism is what makes a person a Christian.
Last edited by Ganbare Gincun on Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:20 am

> tzor wrote:The sacrament of baptism requires three conditions, matter (water), form (Trinitarian baptism), and intent (wanting to be baptized).

So how does the Catholic Church figure out if all those little babies want to be baptized?

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Post by Koumei » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:37 am

I thought that was a christening, not a baptism.

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Post by Kobajagrande » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:41 am

> Absentminded_Wizard wrote:So how does the Catholic Church figure out if all those little babies want to be baptized?

Why, they ask them, at which point, if the baby wants to be baptized it will either cry out in joy or will accept the grace given to them with dignified silence.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:11 am

Intent in baptism is a Protestant thing, and then only some of the sects.
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violence in the media
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Post by violence in the media » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:15 pm

Yeah, Catholic baptism is ritual you schedule for off-hours at the church during a workday as a kindness to your friends and family members so they have an easy excuse for not attending. However, the crazy old lady that spends every day in church will be there to say a Hail Mary for your little hellspawn.
Protestants, on the other hand, pack everyone into the church bus and make a beach day of it. However, unlike a normal beach day, everyone's fully dressed and sober and it's considered poor form to sneak off behind the dunes for a quickie.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:30 pm

> NativeJovian wrote:

> > CatharzGodfoot wrote:I have heard people say "I'm not a Christian, I'm Catholic"...

> That's because, in the US at least, "Christian" without any descriptors refers almost exclusively to Protestant, which is obviously different enough from Catholicism to warrant explicit differentiation. Granted, they could just say "I'm Catholic" without the "I'm not Christian" part, but it's not like what they're saying is completely nonsensical even if it is incorrect.

I've heard Protestants refer to Chritians and Caltholics as two separate enteties, but I've never heard a Catholic do that before.
Last edited by RobbyPants on Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tzor
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Post by tzor » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:07 pm

> Absentminded_Wizard wrote:

> > tzor wrote:The sacrament of baptism requires three conditions, matter (water), form (Trinitarian baptism), and intent (wanting to be baptized).

> So how does the Catholic Church figure out if all those little babies want to be baptized?

Intent is the intent of the minister of the sacrament.
As to the answer for the little babies, that is the role of the god parents.
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tzor
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Post by tzor » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:17 pm

> violence in the media wrote:Yeah, Catholic baptism is ritual you schedule for off-hours at the church during a workday as a kindness to your friends and family members so they have an easy excuse for not attending.

NO, sorry, but NO.
Catholic infant baptism (as opposed to Catholic adult baptism) is something that is typically done on a Sunday, after the last Sunday Mass. It is small ceremony, typically done in small groups of 3 to 6 infants along with their parents, god parents, close friends and close relatives by either a priest or a deacon. It is then followed by individual luncheons that often cost just as much as a wedding. (Later followed by the very expensive one year old celebration luncheon.)
Catholic adult baptism is a long and drawn out process. After being bored to death with the RCIA (Rite for Christian Initiation for Adults) over the course of Advent and Lent, the converts are baptized and confirmed and receive their first Holy Communion at the Easter Vigil Mass, the longest Mass in the liturgy. It is one of those very odd exceptions where a priest can in the name of his bishop confirm someone.
Last edited by tzor on Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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