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## "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Catharz
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### "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Catharz » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:56 am

[counturl=46]And here we have the link.[/counturl]
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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:05 pm

The really interesting thing for me is that Andy Collins wrote that.
However, the big six he refers to are a melee characters priority items; so I'm less astounded as interested.
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Zherog
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Zherog » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:16 pm

Definitely an interesting article...
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User3
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by User3 » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:15 pm

> wrote:Ultimately, we realized that the greatest factor influencing the likelihood of a particular magic item being used by a character came down to its cost.

They didn't realize that until they sat down to write this book? Hello, your entire game is based on giving players a limited budget (of levels, feats, and cash), and expecting them to try to get the most bang for their buck.
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bitnine
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by bitnine » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:14 pm

Hm, these sort of things make me somewhat conflicted. I liked the article, figure maybe it's even something to bring up when people advance the idea that WotC designers never learn.
However, I don't know if any of the ideas there will translate unmarred over to the end product. Sure, they may have acted with some good concepts in mind, same could be said for many of the recent product releases. But each time it's almost like they write their products apologetically, picturing players showing up shouting "WTF WARLOCK BROKKEN!!" and end up hamstringing themselves.
I actually like the direction and some of the underlying concepts behind a lot of recent works. However, the particulars of implementation have left me looking at what feels like the plain cousin of a knockout product. I'll go ahead and coin a term for the feeling - crunchtease. (I'm pretty sure I could do a long 'plain cousin' entendre here, but I lack the effort.)
You know, where say to yourself, "Hey, this is like a watered down version of a neat house rule/homebrew item that I came up with!" or "Well, I don't like these in particular, but they give me a neat idea..."
...but maybe this time will be different.
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Catharz
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Catharz » Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:37 pm

One thing which bothered me: Was he implying that that the only magic items which should exist are stat boosters, bonus weapons, bonus armor, and bonus cloaks? And that items like ring gates, helms of underwater action, bottles of endless water, and so forth were boring and shouldn't exist?
Or was he arguing that everybody should be able to get their level-appropriate bonus gear, and that real magic items (the ones that do magical stuff) should be cheaper?
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User3
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by User3 » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:07 pm

I personally find it funny that his "big six" are actually the six kinds of items I'd like removed from the game.
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Username17
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Username17 » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:20 pm

Andy Collins is making the classic mistake of capitalist economics: confusing desires (which are subjet to incentives) and needs (which are not).
In D&D you need wands of cure light wounds and magic swords. If you don't have them, you can't accomplish anything. And thus the relative cost of other items is cmpletely irrelevent.
---
Or is it? See, there's a whole group of characters who interestingly don't need anything stupid like a "+2 Sword" - we call them wizards. So while Andy Collins is genuinely attempting to make items like flying carpets available to Fighters, actually what he's doing is increasing the pile of swag that Wizards have at the expense of Fighters.
Because they aren't going after the root problem, but merely adjusting the economy at the level of the Federal Interest Rate - they are really just putting more wealth into the hands of the wealthy and changing the plight of the poor not at all.
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User3
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by User3 » Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:36 pm

Not only is he admitting that flavorless stat boosting items are needed equipment, but he doesn't fix the essential problem he describes: you will sell crap items to get your basic equipment. It doesn't even matter if you find one Helm of Underwater Action in the gorgon's horde(since the GP value of rewards are set by EL), or if you reprice the Helm so that you find six of them instead.
You still sell them to get basic equipment. Making that stuff cheaper just means that you get more of it and still sell it.
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RandomCasualty
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by RandomCasualty » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:03 pm

Andy is in a real bind, because they've realized the problem far too late. The only real way to fix the problem is to get rid of most of the mandatory equipment and make the bonus accumulation as class abilities, instead of magic items. But they can't do that, at least not until 4th edition, because all the problematic stuff is right in the core books.
The best they can really do is just say that you can't sell magic items. That way when you find that cool helm of underwater action in a treasure hoard, the price is irrelevant and it's yours and you can use it to do cool stuff. If there is no choice to trade it in for other stuff, people will just use it.
Because really, what screws up the economy isn't PCs buying magic items, it's the ability to sell magic items.
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NineInchNall
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by NineInchNall » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:12 pm

Well, he's probably thinking of going in one of two ways:
1) make helms of underwater action cheaper in order make it so that people don't immediately think, "Oh, a helm of -- What? It doesn't help my AC or anything? You mean this is basically worthless under most circumstances yet is worth a bajillion gp? Um. Yeah, I'll be selling this to get something that will actually help me at some point in the foreseeable future." The problem being that the helm just doesn't help under most circumstances.
2) make the necessities (magic swords and armor) cheaper, thereby allowing people to spend cash on interesting items.
I prefer 1. It seems the most sensible, considering the pricing guidelines already in place (more useful --> higher cost, regardless of base effect; cf. ring of invisibility).
For a total rewrite, I gotta go with some system that would obviate the need for the "big six".
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bitnine
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by bitnine » Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:46 pm

> NineInchNall at [unixtime wrote:1172877140[/unixtime]]Well, he's probably thinking of going in one of two ways:

Especially given the materia we've seen, I'd say there's a third option where he doesn't obviate the mandatory nature of these items but instead ties a concurrent selection of scaling utility.
That is: yeah, you're going to buy a cloak of protection, but each one comes in a flavor now and you've got to choose between the cloak of protection/free action or the cloak of protection/enemy detection or... and so on and so forth.
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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:48 am

Wrote this up.

> Armour Enhancements
> Player Characters can cast Magic Vestment up to twice per day; with a caster level equal to their Character Levels an Hit Dice added up. The armour or sheild affected must be at least of masterwork quality. If it is not used on a masterwork quality item, the total caster level goes down by 4 to a minimum of 1.
> Weapon Enhancements
> Player Characters can cast Greater Magic Weapon up to twice per day; with a caster level equal to their Character Levels an Hit Dice added up. The weapon used must be at least of masterwork quality. If it is not used on a masterwork quality weapon, the total caster level goes down by 4 to a minimum of 1.
> Stat Boosting
> At 5th level all character choose one stat .
> It now gains a +2 Enhancement bonus to itself. You must be wearing an item of at least Masterwork value in one of your item slots to take advantage of this ability.
> At 10th level choose a two stats; they gains all of the same benefits that the Stat that you chose at 5th lvl gained. Your 5th level selection gains a +4 enhancement bonus.
> At 15th level pick two more stats; they gain the same benefit that the stat chosen at 5th lvl gained. The two stats gained at 10th lvl now have a +4 enhancement bonus. The stat chosen at 5th level now has a +6 Enhancement bonus.
> At 20th level, pick the remaining stat that has not bee thus far selected, it gains a +2 enhancement bonus so long as you fulfill the same prerequisites as the first stat needs (wearing a masterwork article of equipment somwhere along your magical item slots).
> Your abilities chosen at 10th level gain a +5 enhancement bonus your abilties chosen at 15th level gain a +3 Enhancement bonus and your 5th level chosen stat grants a +7 enhancement bonus.
> Therefore at 20th lvl your bonuses to stats should look as follows:
> Chosen at 5th lvl (1): +7
> Chosen at 10th lvl (2): +5
> Chosen at 15th lvl (2): +3
> Chosen at 20th lvl (1): +2
> Rings of Protection
> Every 4 levels you may choose to add a +1 enhancement bonus to your deflection armour bonus, up to a maximum of +5 at lvl 20. If you are wearing a ring of at least masterwork value to gain this benefit and it takes the place of a ring item slot.
> Amulets of Natural Armour
> Every 4 levels may choose to add a +1 enhancement bonus to your natural armour bons, up to a maximum of +5 at lvl 20. You must be wearing an item that takes up a magical item slot of at least masterwork value to gain this benefit.
> Resistance Gear
> Every 4 levels you may choose to gain a +1 resistance bonus to all of your saving throws. You must be wearing an item that takes up a magical item slot of at least masterwork value to gain this benefit.

Oingo-bongo, eat that.
Only Characters who gain PC wealth can have those above abilities.
PC wealth is now tied to ... i dunno, other items; ensuring that you have the right types of armour, etc.
Fvck!
This is what an MMO should use; bonuses to your abilities based on your level or degree of skill. Gear should be how you use your innate power.
So, a steel sword will be tougher, sharper etc.; but a fire sword will do more damage, fire damage.
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Username17
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Username17 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:00 am

> 1) make helms of underwater action cheaper in order make it so that people don't immediately think, "Oh, a helm of -- What? It doesn't help my AC or anything? You mean this is basically worthless under most circumstances yet is worth a bajillion gp? Um. Yeah, I'll be selling this to get something that will actually help me at some point in the foreseeable future."

This is the thinking that brought us the 3.5 Bard and Druid. You make a bunch of crap that you don't think is good enough "better" in some way and some of it still isn't good enough and some of it was already good and is now the Mayor of Crazy Town.
This is a bankrupt strategy to create a balanced product. Andy Collins has done it before and it doesn't work.
---
If the problem is "Fighters can't afford to spend any of their limited resources on anything that isn't numeric bonuses to their basic combat stats" - then adjusting the price of anything else is a waste of your fvcking time.
A 9th level Fighter supposedly gets 36,000 gp to play with. A CR 9 adventure is going to repeatedly kill your character if you don't have a level appropriate weapon, armor, cloak of resistance, and shield. We know this. And a level-appropriate sword costs 18,310 gp. A level appropriate shield costs 9,170 gp. Level appropriate armor costs 13,350 gp. A level appropriate Cloak of Resistance costs 9000 even. And you know what? We're already over budget by 4,830 gp. It doesn't fvcking matter what anything costs because Fighters can't afford the equipment that they are required by law to purchase just to get in the door.
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User3
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by User3 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:22 am

The solution is simple: each character gets an increase in WBL by the following formula:
((The highest level spell a wizard of equal level could cast)-(the highest level spell the character can cast)) x character's level^2 x 1,000gp
Because seriously, the problem is that spellcasting is just better than anything, and the only fix that can reasonably balance that without rewriting what nonspellcasters can do is to...rewrite what they can do by giving them a huge pile of magic items.
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Cielingcat » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:20 am

I support Judging_Eagle's solution, though the actual mechanics of it need some work. This is not only because of things like what Frank mentioned, but also because being decked out in a ton of magical gear doesn't fit with any hero I've ever read about*. Heroes should have a magic weapon, a couple pieces of magic jewelry, and maybe a magic shield or something. Beyond that, they can have a variety of trinkets, but none of these trinkets actually contribute to their combat ability and are essentially flavor text. Even Rogues don't have a ton of magic artifacts-they just have a bunch of cool gadgets and their shtick is to use them. Batman doesn't have a Ring of Protection, he has his Bat Armor and a bunch of gadgets that he uses as his weapons and/or tools. Also he can breathe in space.
*Except for Ironman and other people like him, who get their powers from their gear. But we call these people "Artificers" and their class abilities are "has a ton of magic stuff."
tl;dr, the only items that flavorfully fit into any setting I've ever heard of are the same exact items that no one ever uses.
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Zherog
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Zherog » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:53 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see Andy propose two "wealth by level" amounts for characters. The first amount will be used only for his "big six" items. The other amount will be used for everything else.
Doing that gives the wizard more toys, of course - because now he can buy cool wands, or have those once-in-a-while spells on a scroll and therefore always handy. Same deal goes for other casters.
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Username17
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Username17 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:39 pm

First of all, I don't understand why Andy thinks there is a "big six" when really he's looking at four things:

1. Basic Equipment with bonuses (armor, shield, weapon, arrows).
2. Stat Boosts
3. Save Boosts
4. AC Boosts

But the really important thing about this statement is that out of that whole list, Wizards only give a damn about two of them (Attribute Boosts and Save Boosts). So while you could give a Fighter 36,000 gp to not be able to afford his sword, shield, and armor - the same pile gives a Wizard a +6 Int bonus.
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User3
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by User3 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:19 pm

Wellll, rings of protection are always nice for when one has to deal with ranged touch attacks.
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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:44 pm

> Cielingcat at [unixtime wrote:1172899216[/unixtime]]I support Judging_Eagle's solution, though the actual mechanics of it need some work. This is not only because of things like what Frank mentioned, but also because being decked out in a ton of magical gear doesn't fit with any hero I've ever read about*. Heroes should have a magic weapon, a couple pieces of magic jewelry, and maybe a magic shield or something. Beyond that, they can have a variety of trinkets, but none of these trinkets actually contribute to their combat ability and are essentially flavor text. Even Rogues don't have a ton of magic artifacts-they just have a bunch of cool gadgets and their shtick is to use them. Batman doesn't have a Ring of Protection, he has his Bat Armor and a bunch of gadgets that he uses as his weapons and/or tools. Also he can breathe in space.
> *Except for Ironman and other people like him, who get their powers from their gear. But we call these people "Artificers" and their class abilities are "has a ton of magic stuff."
> tl;dr, the only items that flavorfully fit into any setting I've ever heard of are the same exact items that no one ever uses.

Well; the method I propose has a fighter not even limited by his choice of items.
He puts on a suit of mithral shirt and a buckler one day; it's got level appropriate bonuses; an adamantine full plate and tower sheiild the next, same thing.
Of course, he has to own at least MWK equipment; and his bracers, boots, amulet, rings, cloak, vest, goggles/headband, etc. will all have to be of at least masterwork value (i.e. base cost +50 gp for equipment, +150 for armour/sheilds, +300 for weapons; or 50, which ever is more).
Although, really, for MWK weapons and armour; I'd say that armours cost double for light, +50% for medium, and +10% for heavy armours. to get them masterwork.
Weapons are double their base cost if a simple weapon; triple if a martial weapon and quarduple if an exotic (for that region, in an pseudo-Nipponese game, shuriken, katanas etc. are martial weapons, since they're more well known).
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Zherog
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Zherog » Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:31 pm

> FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1172939954[/unixtime]]
> But the really important thing about this statement is that out of that whole list, Wizards only give a damn about two of them (Attribute Boosts and Save Boosts). So while you could give a Fighter 36,000 gp to not be able to afford his sword, shield, and armor - the same pile gives a Wizard a +6 Int bonus.
> -Username17

Yeah, that's part of the point I was trying to make too. Though re-reading it now, I did a shitty job of it.
Wizards will get more toys from the separate pile of cash set aside for things not in the "big six" and they'll get better stuff from the "big six" pile.
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by User3 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:42 pm

It gets worse, too. Wizards can get free money by crafting magic items; fighters cannot.
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by User3 » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:09 pm

WotC also has to be careful with future changes in the magic item offering paradigm ..... specifically due to Artificer mechanics and their often-times broken methodologies in magic item creation.
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Zherog
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Zherog » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:21 pm

It'll be interesting to see what Andy offers as a solution in the next part, that's for sure.
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### Re: "Design & Development: Magic Item Compendium"

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Post by Leress » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:53 am

The table of contents is up.
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070302a

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