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## Best Starwars Game

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:08 am

Anyway, from a game design perspective is there any particular reason why you can't just declare that anyone who wants to do cool non-VAH things uses the Force to do so? So a mid-level gunslinger in this game doesn't resemble Han Solo, they resemble Neo. The apogee of a gadgeteer bounty hunter is not Jango, the touchstone is instead Samus Aran.
I know that would be a pretty huge departure from the primary mythos/source material of Star Wars in which: if you want to do something non-VAH, you must use the Force. And if you use the Force, you must take on all of the Jedi/Sith baggage which includes a focus on melee combat, mysticism, and a side order of vague stereotypical psychic powers? But still, would it really destroy the feel of the game to do what I suggested?

> Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
> In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.

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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:20 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:Anyway, from a game design perspective is there any particular reason why you can't just declare that anyone who wants to do cool non-VAH things uses the Force to do so?

I'm not a star wars expert, but I was under the impression that "destined/guided/powered by the force minus the jedi stuff" was pretty much the default (possibly somewhat retroactive, possibly now no longer official) cannon for solo and a lot of other "non-jedi heroic" characters.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:41 am

Hell, the d20 SW game had "force adept(?)" as a class for people who wanted to be non-jedi/sith, and the canon, so far as I know, had fucking force sensitive droids. It's not like there isn't precedence for things that use the force that aren't jedi/sith.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Longes
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Post by Longes » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:48 am

> Lago PARANOIA wrote:

> > RadiantPhoenix wrote:I'll admit, I was kind of assuming that people would want to go with prequel-style lightsaber battles rather than classic-style.

> No one liked any of the lightsaber battles or any battle where Jedi played a prominent role in the prequel trilogy except for the Darth Maul battle and maybe the Obi vs. Jango fight. And I suspect that the only reason why people liked the Darth Maul battle is because Ray Park is a genius and that was the closest the first movie came to having a decent action scene.
> Honestly, I'd like to use the Gennedy Tartakovsky cartoons as a model for Jedi fights in Star Wars but they pretty much established that Jedi > you in those. Maybe Frank's idea to just write a Feng Shui hack was the right idea all along. After all, is there something you can do in on-foot fights in Star Wars that you couldn't do passably in Feng Shui?

I'm convinced that it is. Star Wars needs rules light system to help the muggles be on the same agency level as the jedi.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:43 am

Every player character needs something to do in a firefight. Because there are going to be a lot of those, and they are going to take a lot of screen time. The Feng Shui concept where even the people who play drivers or socialites still get attack and defense numbers that are on the RNG with all the other characters is spot on. Characters need to be doing something during space combat too, because again it's going to take a lot of table time to talk about. But again, that just means that all the playable archetypes need to have AVs on the RNG in piloting, gunnery or mechanics and some kind of shtick contribution to space bomber action sequences.
But once you do that, you really don't have to accept Jedi as being better than you. A Space Princess is going to be missing a few points on attack and defense vs. a Jedi and she won't have the shtick that lets the Jedi block blaster fire intended for other characters, but she'll have a pile of mooks and possibly an inspiration bonus to give to the other characters. In combat she'll be pulling her weight. And out of combat she'll be able to do various social and bureaucracy stuff that will be competitive with the Jedi throwing mind tricks around.
Once you accept abstractions and movie logic in your game system, the Smuggler and Space Princess can be valid characters right next to the Jedis.
-Username17
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Fucks
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Post by Fucks » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:55 am

> FrankTrollman wrote: Once you accept abstractions and movie logic in your game system, the Smuggler and Space Princess can be valid characters right next to the Jedis.

FFG version of SW does exactly that: every class (non-Jedi and Jedi) gets news powers, while the force-based stuff isn't overpowered.
One might argue over Duty/ Obligation/ Morality - - but the base system is solid, even in long-running/ high XP campaigns.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:00 am

> Fucks wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote: Once you accept abstractions and movie logic in your game system, the Smuggler and Space Princess can be valid characters right next to the Jedis.

> FFG version of SW does exactly that: every class (non-Jedi and Jedi) gets news powers, while the force-based stuff isn't overpowered.

In FFG it is trivially easy to make a character who can't meaningfully contribute to a fight alongside the player characters who can. The divide isn't "Jedi/Non-Jedi," it's "Maxxed attributes/Balanced Characters" but it's just as bad. It's actually even worse, because there isn't even a defensible "Star Wars Fan Logic" you can use to explain why one character is tough enough to bounce blaster fire off his manly chest and another gets smeared as soon as a storm trooper looks at them funny.
I know you want to white knight for FFG Star Wars for some reason, but try not to say stupid shit all the time.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:27 am

> Fucks wrote:

> > FrankTrollman wrote: Once you accept abstractions and movie logic in your game system, the Smuggler and Space Princess can be valid characters right next to the Jedis.

> FFG version of SW does exactly that: every class (non-Jedi and Jedi) gets news powers, while the force-based stuff isn't overpowered.
> One might argue over Duty/ Obligation/ Morality - - but the base system is solid, even in long-running/ high XP campaigns.

The problem with FFG is that while it is playable on low XP, it is dreadfully boring. I mean, let's look at an Assassin talent tree from EotE. The first two rows of talents give you +1 mental HP, ability to quickdraw your weapon, and ability to get +1 defence die or reduce enemy's defense by 1. Talents that fuck around with dice bonuses penalties are just not very interesting in any game. This is a unique ability of a Pirate Captain nemesis:

> Abilities: Pirate Leader (may spend a maneuver giving orders to other pirate allies in medium range, granting them white die on their next check).

Wooooo.
On high XP the combat splits into two camps. Brawl monsters take no damage from anyone who is not a heavy weapons specialist (i.e. no one but Nemesis). Heavy Weapons guys get a crit every time they hit, and deal infinite damage via Auto-Fire.
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Fucks
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Post by Fucks » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:17 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:

> > Fucks wrote:

> > > FrankTrollman wrote: Once you accept abstractions and movie logic in your game system, the Smuggler and Space Princess can be valid characters right next to the Jedis.

> > FFG version of SW does exactly that: every class (non-Jedi and Jedi) gets news powers, while the force-based stuff isn't overpowered.

> In FFG it is trivially easy to make a character who can't meaningfully contribute to a fight alongside the player characters who can. The divide isn't "Jedi/Non-Jedi," it's "Maxxed attributes/Balanced Characters" but it's just as bad. It's actually even worse, because there isn't even a defensible "Star Wars Fan Logic" you can use to explain why one character is tough enough to bounce blaster fire off his manly chest and another gets smeared as soon as a storm trooper looks at them funny.
> I know you want to white knight for FFG Star Wars for some reason, but try not to say stupid shit all the time.
> -Username17

I don't know how one could enjoy the other SW games out there, so that's that. FFG version may have issues, but it's certainly not character optmization - a healer won't contribute much to combat in any system. And suggesting a bullshit system like Feng Shui? Seriously?
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Silent Wayfarer
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Post by Silent Wayfarer » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:20 pm

> Longes wrote:On high XP the combat splits into two camps. Brawl monsters take no damage from anyone who is not a heavy weapons specialist (i.e. no one but Nemesis). Heavy Weapons guys get a crit every time they hit, and deal infinite damage via Auto-Fire.

Please tell me how to do this. I have 150xp.
If your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
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Fucks
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Post by Fucks » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:21 pm

> Longes wrote:

> > Fucks wrote:

> > > FrankTrollman wrote: Once you accept abstractions and movie logic in your game system, the Smuggler and Space Princess can be valid characters right next to the Jedis.

> > FFG version of SW does exactly that: every class (non-Jedi and Jedi) gets news powers, while the force-based stuff isn't overpowered.
> > One might argue over Duty/ Obligation/ Morality - - but the base system is solid, even in long-running/ high XP campaigns.

> The problem with FFG is that while it is playable on low XP, it is dreadfully boring. I mean, let's look at an Assassin talent tree from EotE. The first two rows of talents give you +1 mental HP, ability to quickdraw your weapon, and ability to get +1 defence die or reduce enemy's defense by 1. Talents that fuck around with dice bonuses penalties are just not very interesting in any game. This is a unique ability of a Pirate Captain nemesis:

> > Abilities: Pirate Leader (may spend a maneuver giving orders to other pirate allies in medium range, granting them white die on their next check).

> Wooooo.
> On high XP the combat splits into two camps. Brawl monsters take no damage from anyone who is not a heavy weapons specialist (i.e. no one but Nemesis). Heavy Weapons guys get a crit every time they hit, and deal infinite damage via Auto-Fire.

Now WEG or Saga don't grant petty +1 bonus?
Agreed that not every career spezialistation is total cool, but overall FFG offers enough interesting choices for player characters.
Combat has it's issues, that's a major gripe for high XP games. On the other hand, who wants to deal with minions when he's Han Solo in RotJ?
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:40 pm

> Silent Wayfarer wrote:

> > Longes wrote:On high XP the combat splits into two camps. Brawl monsters take no damage from anyone who is not a heavy weapons specialist (i.e. no one but Nemesis). Heavy Weapons guys get a crit every time they hit, and deal infinite damage via Auto-Fire.

> Please tell me how to do this. I have 150xp.

Take Heavy Blaster Rifle. Damage 10, Crit 3, Autofire. Upgrade it to Superior. Now you only need 1 Advantage to double your weapon's damage. If you got 3 Advantages, you can triple your damage. This means you are doing at least 22 damage with almost every attack. PCs in EotE have 13-15 HP, and 5-7 Soak. The aforementioned Pirate Captain has 20 HP and 5 soak.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:43 pm

> Fucks wrote:Now WEG or Saga don't grant petty +1 bonus?
> Agreed that not every career spezialistation is total cool, but overall FFG offers enough interesting choices for player characters.
> Combat has it's issues, that's a major gripe for high XP games. On the other hand, who wants to deal with minions when he's Han Solo in RotJ?

Look, Weapon Focus and Skill Focus are shitty feats, and no one ever takes them unless forced. 90% of the talents in EotE are Weapon Focus.
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shlominus
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Post by shlominus » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:53 pm

> Silent Wayfarer wrote:

> > Longes wrote:On high XP the combat splits into two camps. Brawl monsters take no damage from anyone who is not a heavy weapons specialist (i.e. no one but Nemesis). Heavy Weapons guys get a crit every time they hit, and deal infinite damage via Auto-Fire.

> Please tell me how to do this. I have 150xp.

with 150 xp you can do a lot of crazy shit in ffg star wars. the talent trees especially in eote are not balanced very well.
soak of around 8 or 9 is easily doable and and so is autofire abuse with jury rigged. you might even be able to have both on the same character. just be sure to make him a gadgeteer.
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Silent Wayfarer
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Post by Silent Wayfarer » Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:57 pm

What's the exploit for juryrigged and autofire again? And I can muster up a soak of 8ish, which is good?
If your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:00 pm

Jury Rigged is a Gadgeteer talent that allows you to reduce the activation cost of quality on a piece of weapon by 1. If you take Jury Rigged twice and reduce the activation cost of Auto Fire to 0, then you have infinite damage as you triger Auto Fire an again and again for the low low cost of 0 advantages. Even if you only use Jury Rigged on Auto Fire once, you are multiplying your damage output to obscene levels.
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shlominus
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Post by shlominus » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:28 pm

infinite damage is not possible, afaik. every weapon quality needs at least 1 advantage to trigger.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Sun Aug 16, 2015 1:35 pm

> shlominus wrote:infinite damage is not possible, afaik. every weapon quality needs at least 1 advantage to trigger.

> EotE wrote:Active qualities must be triggered by the user, often by spending one or more [advantage] to activate the effect.

This implies that no, qualities that have cost of 0 can be triggered for no cost.
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shlominus
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Post by shlominus » Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:21 pm

> Longes wrote:

> > shlominus wrote:infinite damage is not possible, afaik. every weapon quality needs at least 1 advantage to trigger.

> > EotE wrote:Active qualities must be triggered by the user, often by spending one or more [advantage] to activate the effect.

> This implies that no, qualities that have cost of 0 can be triggered for no cost.

have you actually ever read the rules?
the decription of the talent explicitly states that a minimum cost of 1 advantage always remains. you are wrong. again.
i thought i read this in an answer from a dev somewhere, but it's actually in the fucking rules!
Last edited by shlominus on Sun Aug 16, 2015 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dogbert
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Post by Dogbert » Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:38 pm

Let's see:
WEG: Plain terrible.
d20: Fuck this one with a spoon, worst game balance since Rifts. At least d&d has magic items for the muggles to pretend they're relevant.
SAGA: The book looks as if muggles are still muggles, but at least have more things to do, but I must confess I've never played a SAGA game.
FFG: Han Solo doesn't slip in the bath tub and die, period. Wrong genre, Star Wars is chivalric fantasy and WFRP is a system for dark fantasy. Still, at least they did a good job in explicitly separating the game in tiers.
If I ever were to run a SW game, I'd use either HeroQuest 2.0 or FATE... except I stopped supporting FATE out of principle since mr. Hicks started engaging in Predatory Practices.
Last edited by Dogbert on Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:55 pm

> Dogbert wrote:FFG: Han Solo doesn't slip in the bath tub and die, period. Wrong genre, Star Wars is chivalric fantasy and WFRP is a system for dark fantasy. Still, at least they did a good job in explicitly separating the game in tiers.

The games aren't tiered. In EotE you play a street level mundane shadowrunners, in F&D you get to be a street level adept. The increase in power is pretty minor, and mostly comes from lightsaber talents (but getting a lightsaber is not guaranteed) and direct access to the Force talent trees, rather than having to multiclass into Exile/Emergent.
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Post by Dogbert » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:26 pm

> Longes wrote:The games aren't tiered. In EotE you play a street level mundane shadowrunners, in F&D you get to be a street level adept. The increase in power is pretty minor, and mostly comes from lightsaber talents (but getting a lightsaber is not guaranteed) and direct access to the Force talent trees, rather than having to multiclass into Exile/Emergent.

Yeah, just read your first reply... and that robs me of any hope I might have possible had for FFG's SW. That gives me sads.
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Longes
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Post by Longes » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:30 pm

I should correct myself. Looking at the F&D, you can actually start with an item that is usable with the lightsaber talents. That would either be an Ancient Sword, which is a mundane sword that uses Lightsaber skill, or a training saber, which can deflect blaster shots (once you've bought the talent), but only does stun damage.
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Dean
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Post by Dean » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:32 pm

> shlominus wrote:the decription of the talent explicitly states that a minimum cost of 1 advantage always remains. you are wrong. again.
> i thought i read this in an answer from a dev somewhere, but it's actually in the fucking rules!

You probably read it in both. In the beta I found that exploit and got the Devs to write a fix in the FAQ and then by official release it was in the book.

> DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.

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TheFlatline
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Post by TheFlatline » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:02 pm

> RadiantPhoenix wrote:I'll admit, I was kind of assuming that people would want to go with prequel-style lightsaber battles rather than classic-style. Classic style probably doesn't want 4e as a combat system from what I recall.

> > Stinktopus wrote:Star Wars kinda demands a system where actually getting hit fucks you up.

> Rename HP "Battle Reserve" or something, rename Bloodied "winded", and declare that you're not really hit until you're out of Battle Reserve.

I could see a more abstract system treat lightsaber duels as dramatic scenes as opposed to action scenes. You're almost certainly talking about the original trilogy or later and not the prequels though in that capacity.
Also D20 SW had that: It was called wounds & vitality. It works. Sort of. Crits go straight to wounds so you can actually be one-shotted at full health. Which is kind of bullshit but whatever.
The silly part was that you used vitality (your health) to power the Force.
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