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## 40k is 4-ucked up. We fix it! [JE/Koumei's ideas]

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Judging__Eagle
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### 40k is 4-ucked up. We fix it! [JE/Koumei's ideas]

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:22 pm

HtH is dumb - Super assaulters can't go on Killing Sprees!
I... don't mind that fact. Koumei is of the opposite camp, she wants her Repentias to RAEPINGINJI other units. We'll have to look at that later.
Personally.... I don't mind sweeping advances; I do mind squads that can keep mowing enemies down. Mostly b/c it results in "too many actions" given to a single type of unit.
Turns are too slow - Turns are too slow. Duh, that's an obvious explanation.
Solution, new Turn Sequence!
Old:
Players 1&2: Roll for Deployment & 1st Round; Loser of Deployment can 'steal' initiative and go 1st on 1st round.
Player 1: Roll for Reserves, Move, Shoot, Assault
Player 2: Roll for Reserves, Move, Shoot, Assault
repeat.
Now, the deployment is faster than the old method of "Compare armies tactical ability; add it to a d6; Orks get shitty deployment, but can go first, b/c they're all Waarrtgh; SM deploy best, and can usually move first; IG get slow deployment, and usually go 2nd, b/c they're WW1 tactics and WW40k tech".
However, the rest is still old school turns. Let's steal from Battletech; which got this shit right back in the mother-fucking 1980's, mang.
New Sequance!
Deployment: Normal,
Move Phase!
I'm a Jump Pack Marine, and in a field of Rubble... how far can I move? Retreat? Fallback? Charge?
Sometimes the words "roll for movement" are used, this is what it means:
If the a unit is in clear terrain, roll 2d6", drop the lowest dice roll, you move back that far.
If in difficult terrain, roll 2d6", drop the highest dice roll.
"Fast" Units roll an extra d6 to add to their total distance moved; this includes units with Jump Packs, the Fleet rule, Bikes, and other units that are not vehicles but are able to move faster than normal models.
Forward you dogs!
-Players roll off, person with the higher roll decides if they want to move 1st, or last.
-Players alternate, moving one unit at a time; until all units are moved.*
-Players keep moving until they have 1/2 of their total units moved. If a Player has moved 1/2 of their total units, other players keep moving their units until they have moved 1/2 of their units. This is meant to keep tons of squads moving at the same 'tactical' speed, as armies made up of smaller numbers of squads. An IG army could seriously bury an enemy under activations, and I'd like to prevent that.
-Players resume moving and then can wait until every player has 1 unit left to move. The person who initially won Initative can elect to move their last unit 1st, or last.
*:Players with more individual units will obviously move more; this could be a 'bad' thing. Hopefully my following rule will reduce the abuse
Combat Phase
Attaaack!
-Pskyers go 1st; resolve as the current rules say it should go
-Declare which units will assault; and their targets
-Units targeted by an Assault may elect to do one of three things:
--1: Shoot them down!: Fire ranged weapons into assaulting enemy unit. All Casualties must be taken from the leading edge of the assaulting unit. If a Unit can no longer reach their target, they are still moved; but will suffer the penalties that all units that fail to reach in assault suffer
--2: Counter Attack!: The Assaulted unit may declare that they will also charge. Both sides count as they had charged when Hand to Hand combat is resolved. Yes, that means all the benefits of charging will apply to both squads. So charging a squad of enemy melee units isn't always "Happy Birthday, you're gonna fuck up some Assault Marines". All other rules for Assault apply
--3: Fall Back!: Seriously, you fall back. You lose shooting this round, but you might also might have evaded an enemy assault. The defender rolls their movement, this is how far they fall back in the face of the enemy.
Resolve Assault: Just like normal.
Run away!: Units in hand to hand combat may always elect to leave hand to hand combat. The player of the unit that is Running Away rolls for movement. The players of units that remain may choose to go after the Running models, but may only do so if they are still not engaged in Hand to Hand combat; when chasing a running unit the player rolls for the movement of his pursuing models, once for each unit that is pursuing.
Sweeping Advance!: Units that wipe out, drive back, or otherwise defeat an enemy in the Combat phase as the result of Hand to Hand combat, may attempt to assault an other unit.
They won't stop coming!: Units that have been assaulted once, may always perform any of the three options for units declared the target on an Assault. No matter how many times a unit is assaulted, they may always take one of the three options for Assaulted units.
Note: A very shooty squad can probably murder lots of assaults, as they get to shoot each time they are assaulted. Also, a very effective squad at HtH can murder lots of people who try to charge them. Expect assault, and combats to potentially end the game earlier than expected.
Shootan!
After all assaults have been resolved, units who haven't shot yet, as well as units that have not been engaged in Hand to Hand combat may now do so. Units that attempted to Assault, are not able to shoot.
Note: This means that units who were assaulted, and fell back, may now fire
Targeting
Same as normal, LoS, Ranges, etc.
Run!
If a unit elects to not shoot, and has neither attempted to assault an other unit, or had assaults attempted this round, may make an extra movement. This does not apply to vehicles; they build up and reduce speed as normal.
===========
Other Edits, or new rules.
[Ranged units are always boned in melee; I can understand this, but it pisses of Koumei a fuckton, so here's a rule]
Ranged Units, and Melee
Shove your bolters into their faces, and FIRE!
Units may choose to use their ranged weapons in melee. This may only be done if the following is true:
1. The model using their firearm is not enganged in melee by enemies that can apply more attacks to the model, than the model has themselves. So, Ogryns with 3 Attacks, need at least 2 models with 2 weapons per Ogyrn before the Ogryns will stop using their Ripper Guns on you.
Sisters of Battle will need at least 2 Termegants, or 1 Genestealer, per SoB before their Rapid Firing Bolters are silenced, and the Sarissa's are put to use.
Vehicle Squadrons
Lols, you're artillery Squadron blows themselfs up, b/c they might haffs to moov
The "lols, you blow up your own vehicles" rule is dumb. Heavy Weapon skimmer teams destroy themselves if a vehicle is stunned; when they can very well sit still, recover, and then begin shooting in 2 rounds. Artillery Squadrons having to blow themselves up is even more retarded, they aren't even moving in the first place; the whole reason why the "blow up stuck vehicles" rule was written.
New rule: Immobilized or Stunned Vehicles are only destroyed by their crew if the Vehicle Squadron they belong to decides that it needs to keep moving. If not, the Vehicle Squadron may remain in place until the damaged Vehicle recovers, or unless the Squadron needs to move. In which case, the vehicle is destroyed as the crew exits their vehicle, and joins the other vehicles of their squadron.
Combined Squads
Sir! There's 3 Chimeras, let's fit our 30-man squad into them, and charge the enemy!
Why... that's a good idea Corporal.
This... was a point of debate. Mostly b/c I read the IG entry as being that Combined IG squads could use Vehicles (plural, not singular), so long as the vehicles used could carry the total members of the Combined Squad.
Combined Squads can hop into vehicles, but the vehicles used have to:
1. be able to carry the total members of the Combines Squad
2. act like a vehicle squadron
3. if immoblized/stunned, refer to the Vehicle Squadrons rules
4. if any component troops of a Combined Squad leave their vehicle; they treat the larger amount of their squad as the 'largest' part of their Squad, when using Squad Coherency Rules. If more troops are in a vehicle, other squads will try to enter a vehicle that is en-route to the rest of their squad, or will Move and Run (without any other option) in order to rejoin, or keep up with the rest of their squad
Riding Non-Transports
b/c our legs are tired
Troops may ride non-transport vehicles; so long as they are moving at combat speed, or less. A vehicle may carry 6 troops in this manner; but may not fire any weapons if they do so. Troops on such vehicles are treated as if they are Open-Topped. Troops may remain on a vehicle even if it begins driving at Cruising speed.
Dismounting from a vehicle is done to any point within 2" of any edge of the Vehicle; and if done at greater than Combat speed, each dismounting model suffers a hit of SX, where X equals the amount of inches the vehicle traveled above it's Combat speed. So, at 12", that's a S6 hit on each model.
Orks: We're Brits, you damned dirty Frog. We're not Liverpuddians. Those are just the factory workers.
I Like Uruks. Koumei... has to put up with immature brats over 20, that act all Hurr-Durr over Orks. Ones that often shout. I can understand where she's coming from. I ... on the other hand have a mother who did choir for years as a child; and have a smattering of vocal lessons on how to hold a single note or sound for a good 10-15 seconds. Yes, I can hold a non-stop howl, or yell, or insectile "Riiiiii!" for 10-15 seconds (I had to act like a giant insect for something; I'm not sure if everyone who heard it realized it was not a recording). It's all about using your lungs like a bellows. At GW's "mega-battles" I embarass the other side; but then, that's easy, since we're talking GWFags here, and most of them can't hold a pitch, or even speak properly to save their lives (note, I'm also a GWFag, but I also hate GW, and 90% of my minis are either scratch-built, used, or conversions; 40k Chaos is awesome, so.... I guess I don't fit in with them)
Nobs - English Gentry. They can fuck you up, because they need to be strong, and hardcore to lead a bloody rabble into battle. They also like hot, sweet, sweet, hot, good, fresh, warm - but not hotting - good fresh fresh good tea. With a drop of milk if you please.
Goffs - The Working Class, the British Tommy. Alternately, Tazmanians. b/c they're more hardcore than Aussies. Goffs makes up the -least- amounts of Orks, but they're also the ones with the most Nobs; and are the most scarred up from always looking for fights. Even among Uruks, Goffs are considered scrappy.
Bad Moons - Robber Barons, Highwayman. Rich fuckers, that people resent. They may be Uruks that look like Fops, but they've dirty fighters and are festooned with guns strapped to guns; and all kinds of targetting gear.
Bad Skulls - Picts/Celts, Looters, not Theives. They paint their faces in Woad, see crazy stuff, shoot at it with their Big Guns
Blood Axes - They're Yanks. They're Keeners, they try to learn new things; and like to make new toys; they're also sneaky, sneaky bastards; and love to mix raw cunning and commando tactics with Uruk bloodlust and melee know-how.
Stormboyz - See Germans, Japanese. Organized and Crazy. They're willing to charge into the heart of the enemy with nothing but a rocket strapped to their back, a choppa in one hand, and a shoota in the other. Jumping in formation takes a lot of Organization; so they seriously look like German Stormtroopers, or Japanese Samurai (even if that is illogical b/c Samurai fought as duelists, not as squads).
Snakebiters - Canadian Courier De Bois. They ride giant Bears, Boars and other large forest animals. Theres is nothing more serious than a motherfucking Rhino that's about to charge your ass. I can guarantee you that. Snakebiters also set Traps, and use poison; they also wear furry caps; with aminale tales on them. They're like Bear Cavalry, except that the riders are also Metis or French/English-Canadian versions of Davey Crockett. Ain't nothing pretty about army of Davey Crocketts about to charge you when mounts on Bears.
Grots - Smelly Peasants. They do all the farming. They do all the building. They get shat on by everyone. Only Runtherders bother with spending more than the least amount of time possible with Grots.
Snots - Child Labour. A fine tradition hailing back to the Industrial Revolution. Snots are one of the more frightening and terrible things, mostly b/c they don't realize that working on a giant machine with open gears can seriously mangle and rip off their arms. Goldfish (whose memories have been proven to last at least 24 hours) have better memories than Snotlings.
Tank Bustas - They act like IRA provisional army guys. Orange, on everything. Lurvs bombs; but also the current flavour of "want to hunt da biggest beasts on da battlefield; BEHICLES!" that the last Codex describes. They also like to steal from blown up vehicles to get ammo for their next set of weapons. So they're like hunter-gatherers... except that they chase vehicles; and drink their fuel, and eat the crew, then steal the vehicles ammo and guns to make their next Rokkits or Rokkit Launchas.
Red Sunz - Crazed Scotsmen. They dye their hair squigs red; they wear kilts; they paint everything red. The Red Sun is sometimes drawn as a wheel; b/c it goes fast. Transmission fluid is also red. Their preffered way of making paint, is red blood.
Gargants - Are more "Walking/Shuffling Castle" than anything else.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MartinHarper
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Post by MartinHarper » Wed Aug 26, 2009 10:32 pm

Stating the obvious, but... you seem to be missing a phase where people can shoot if they're not being assaulted?
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:05 pm

Whoops. That happens after the assault Phase; everyone who hasn't shot, can now shoot. That section sort of slipped my mind.
edit:
As did a few others. Added those in.
I think that we might get a play-test done some time tomorrow; depending if Zae is available or not.
I'm going to write up a..... 4k pt army.
First suggestion is what I make. It's for a mother-fucking massive map, 12'x12'; city fighting.
I'll post a pic of it.
http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg15 ... x12Map.png
Yes. I wrote up notes/rules for structures as I put them down; then copy-pastaed them, so that I wouldn't have to retype the labels each time.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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cthulhu
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Post by cthulhu » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:02 am

You could just get the rules from ASL and use those. IT really depends on the objective of your simulation.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:28 am

Mostly it's:
"Not playing is seriously more fun than playing. Therefore, why don't I just not play and look at porn?"
"I want to play ;_; Why not change the rules? There are some that really shit me too."
"Excellent. I'm going to go Cao Cao on every rule that shits me, and re-do some codices from the fucking ground up."
Incidentally, even I'm beginning to wonder about the combined squads thing. Because it could very well be their usual poor wording and they're allowed - except it leaves so many questions unanswered (like "If ten doods are in each of two Chimerae, and one disembarks, are they then under half strength and thus unable to ever regroup?" and "If I have a priest in one chimera, and the doods in the other chimera disembark and charge, do they still get the benefits of the priest? Can HtH casualties teleport into the chimera?" Hell, if half are in a tank and half are out, and you target the outsiders with a psykic power, do they get the resistance bonus because they're in a tank? NOBODY KNOWS)
Edit: I asked a guy at the store and he's fairly sure that I was right, because there is the golden rule of "You can't split a squad up".
Last edited by Koumei on Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cynic
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Post by Cynic » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:03 am

J_E: put the pic in a spoiler or resize, please. The text on the page scrolls way to the left.

> Ancient History wrote:We were working on Street Magic, and Frank asked me if a houngan had run over my dog.

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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:28 pm

Sorry Cynic. I've gotten too used to really wide monitors now.
For most of the embarked squads, I'd use the current rules as they are.
"If ten doods are in each of two Chimerae, and one disembarks, are they then under half strength and thus unable to ever regroup?"
-They weren't at under 1/2 strength due to casualties. They have to obey the Squad Coherency rules. Chasing after the rest of the squad, and forgoeing all other options. They'll probably get wtfpwned though, since they can't shoot, or do anything other than move, run.
"If I have a priest in one chimera, and the doods in the other chimera disembark and charge, do they still get the benefits of the priest?
-Only if the priest is present with the models that are in HtH; he's an Independant Character, he's got to be represented with the squad to give them his bonus.
Can HtH casualties teleport into the chimera?
-No, it's the same with shooting or assault. If there's no more targets who are within LoS or Range of a shooting squad, they can't take anymore casualties. Same with assault. If a guy deals 10 wounds in HtH; and there aren't 10 wounds worth of models within 1" of that guy's base... well guess what cupcake, you only scragged the guys who were within reach of you, the rest were overkill.
Hell, if half are in a tank and half are out, and you target the outsiders with a psykic power, do they get the resistance bonus because they're in a tank?
-Check seperately for each group; Roll once, and add the bonus to the guys who deserve it. Do squads 1/2 in, and 1/2 out of a Bastion have resistance Bonuses? You'd treat squads in vehicles the same way.
NOBODY KNOWS
The rules give some clues. It's a matter of applying them.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:58 pm

> Judging__Eagle wrote: If a guy deals 10 wounds in HtH; and there aren't 10 wounds worth of models within 1" of that guy's base... well guess what cupcake, you only scragged the guys who were within reach of you, the rest were overkill.

Actually, you can take casualties from anywhere in the squad, currently - meaning people take them from the rear first so that when their turn comes they get maximum attacks still. Likewise, you can totally slaughter a whole squad with one guy, given enough attacks. So the very precedent you refer to works against you.

> Do squads 1/2 in, and 1/2 out of a Bastion have resistance Bonuses?

Yeah, this is actually my point: such things never happen. Your squad is either all in or all out. Now they can be half in and half out of, say, ruins or other cover/DT. And that means "everyone gets the DT, if 50% or more get cover then everyone does."

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violence in the media
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Post by violence in the media » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:24 pm

> Koumei wrote:

> > Judging__Eagle wrote: If a guy deals 10 wounds in HtH; and there aren't 10 wounds worth of models within 1" of that guy's base... well guess what cupcake, you only scragged the guys who were within reach of you, the rest were overkill.

> Actually, you can take casualties from anywhere in the squad, currently - meaning people take them from the rear first so that when their turn comes they get maximum attacks still. Likewise, you can totally slaughter a whole squad with one guy, given enough attacks. So the very precedent you refer to works against you.

> > Do squads 1/2 in, and 1/2 out of a Bastion have resistance Bonuses?

> Yeah, this is actually my point: such things never happen. Your squad is either all in or all out. Now they can be half in and half out of, say, ruins or other cover/DT. And that means "everyone gets the DT, if 50% or more get cover then everyone does."

This sort of thing is one of the reasons that I admired Warmachine. Almost everything there is done on a model-to-model basis. Specific models shoot at specific other models, and terrain and other modifiers are detemined on an individual basis.
Now, there are some spells and effects that affect "a unit" as a whole, regardless of where the models might be and whether or not they're in coherency, but that sort of thing is inevitable to a certain extent.
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Post by Username17 » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:39 pm

Chronopia/Mutant Chronicles works the same way.
If you're gong to represent individual models on the field, you should treat them as individual models in the rules. If you're going to treat them as units, you should represent them as units.
Epic has the right idea, warhammer 40k does not.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:36 pm

> Koumei wrote:

> > Judging__Eagle wrote: If a guy deals 10 wounds in HtH; and there aren't 10 wounds worth of models within 1" of that guy's base... well guess what cupcake, you only scragged the guys who were within reach of you, the rest were overkill.

> Actually, you can take casualties from anywhere in the squad, currently - meaning people take them from the rear first so that when their turn comes they get maximum attacks still. Likewise, you can totally slaughter a whole squad with one guy, given enough attacks. So the very precedent you refer to works against you.

> > Do squads 1/2 in, and 1/2 out of a Bastion have resistance Bonuses?

> Yeah, this is actually my point: such things never happen. Your squad is either all in or all out. Now they can be half in and half out of, say, ruins or other cover/DT. And that means "everyone gets the DT, if 50% or more get cover then everyone does."

You can take casualties from wherever. However, if you have no guys near the enemy left to kill in HtH, he can't attack your guys any more.
Models in a location get the bonus, those out of it, don't.
I prefer to treat models as individual models.
I think that's one of the things that Fantasy does better; since it uses units -as- units, with solid shapes that contain the whole of it's member individuals.
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:14 am

Next Issue:
What is a Psyker?
The 40k fluff likes to make all sorts of shit Psykers, or be described as them.
Here's a Brief list all things that 'count' as a Psyker in terms of special weapons that tend to affect Psykers more than other things.
Obvious ones:
-Actual Pskyers
-Grey Knights (they're supposed to be an army of Psyker Spess Merhins)
-Orks (not Grots, not Snots; not their Vehicles)
-Tyranids (Synapse much? Yeah, you're all Pskyers as far as Psyk-Out Grenades and Culexus Assasins are concerned)
-All Models that 'count' as Demons; you're -made- out of Raw Warp-stuff
--Exception Demon Princes without Psyker Powers
-Chaos Possessed
-Chaos Vehicles that have Vehicle Possession (plus Defilers)
-Chaos Obliterators
-Eldar Wraithguard, and Wraithlords
-Any Vehicle Powered by "Warp Engines" (Eldar tend to have these)
-Dark Eldar "shooty helmet" users.... I don't know what Koumei was reffering to with this, but I'll put it on.
Units that -use- their special abilities that are actually shooting-type attacks have to make a Ld test; with Perils of the Warp involved.
Orks, and their weapons.
Any Orks from the Troops force selection have to make a Ld check every time they want to shoot their firearms. If they fail, they get a funny feeling that the Meks didn't do a proper job in building their firearms, and can't shoot this attempt at shooting; they can still Run if the player wishes.
If they suffer a Perils of the Warp (2 or 12); treat the unit as if they suffered a single hit from their basic weapons (no flamers 'randomly' going off; shootas and sluggas).
Basic Ork Troops have a BS of 3, not 2. All other Orks are unaffected by these rules as they tend to have weapons that are actually properly maintained, and built, or built and re-built.
:S This is.... dumb and clunky, and slows down gameplay a bit.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:13 am

On squads: the problem is that it's messy and causes rule problems that we then have to patch in a way that no-one really likes. Perhaps we should change it to an Epic/FB style thing where units really are units and are basically chained together. Treating everyone as an individual, while a noble thing in and of itself, has the problem of taking very long to resolve and being extremely messy in games bigger than Necromunda.
Obviously this would mean that, because units travel in blocks, the battlefield is less clustered with terrain, because what previously meant units had to wind through or form semi-circles of death around, now actually blocks movement because they're too big for the squares.
I don't have much of a problem with reducing the amount of clutter.
Helmets: Tormentor helms. Basically they're psychically activated helmets that fire like a Splinter Pistol even if you already fired another weapon or ran, and always count as an additional CCW (even if wielding a 2-H weapon). Wearing one makes you a psyker, firing it counts as actually using a psykic power.
Vehicles that are psykers are affected thusly: anything that gets a bonus to Wound works as normal - the vehicle is still covered in armour. Anything that Wounds psykers on a given number or automatically will, on that number/automatically cause a "Crew Stunned" result that cannot be downgraded via Extra Armour or ignored via Possession. Anything which eliminates a psykic power merely causes "Crew Shaken" (cannot be ignored via Possession). Psykic vehicles in Shadow of the Warp always move 1d6" for every 6" they would normally move.
For Tyranids, I was thinking: everything that is a Synapse creature, or currently under the influence of Synapse, or has Brood Telepathy. Exception: things with "Shadow in the Warp" don't count as psykers.
Your problem with orks exploding is just that you enjoy the green fungal cock too much, and don't think they're broken. I made the offer to simply write two codices for each of the armies I'll cover - normal play and "ork tier", where Carnifexes are taken in broods of 3-10 and Battle Sisters take Emperor Titans as Heavy Support choices.
Another thing I was thinking, regarding your problem with "But Elites get shafted", is that they can purchase any number of ammo grunts who exist to do nothing other than increase their number for the purpose of Ld tests. So you have a unit of 5 Skorchaz and 5 ammo grunts, and suddenly you have Ld 10. This means ammo grunts have a reason to exist, as I would most certainly be cutting them from the game otherwise. Fuck you, no you don't negate your only weakness with a cheap re-roll.
Personally my favourite option is to just remove orks from the game and say they never existed. This removes all ork problems, and my entire goal here is to make the game better for me - it's all about me, and I don't give a flying toss how much anyone else likes the game. JE basically has to put up with the changes in order to play 40K with me so I basically have supreme veto power.

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Post by violence in the media » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:01 pm

> Koumei wrote:On squads: the problem is that it's messy and causes rule problems that we then have to patch in a way that no-one really likes. Perhaps we should change it to an Epic/FB style thing where units really are units and are basically chained together. Treating everyone as an individual, while a noble thing in and of itself, has the problem of taking very long to resolve and being extremely messy in games bigger than Necromunda.

It can be done swiftly. For example, Warmachine has a Tournament format called "Hardcore" where each player has 6 minutes to conduct the entirely of their turn, and some players had forces of 60+ models. Obviously, you may or may not want to do something like that for a casual game, but it does prevent a lot of dithering and "chessmaster strategist" neckbeard-stroking.
edit to add: The entirety of your turn means: Rolling for continuous effects, assigning focus, movement and measuring, attacks and damage, spell use, special abilities or unit orders, and possible warcaster feat use.
Last edited by violence in the media on Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:06 pm

Ammo Grunts never counted towards "Ork Count", since they're gretchen, and Orks don't trust them. I wouldn't count them towards it in a new version either.
You have no such supreme veto power. I'm fine with just murdering fools with whatever pdf I feel like grabbing. Even orks. Actually, murdering people with orks is fucking hilarious; since I try to pick more "effective" units, and less "comedy" units.
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Post by Koumei » Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:30 pm

> Judging__Eagle wrote: You have no such supreme veto power.

Ah, but I totally do. It might not be an official thing, but I can totally just say "I'm not playing!"
Still, other things to fix first.

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:20 pm

Anyway, I think that we've reached on consensus.
We're just going to remove and change the retarded random shit that orks sometimes get. Really, not much needs to be changed; and there are tons of other army lists that can be pilfered and stolen from for ability ideas.
Chaos used to be exactly the same as Orks in terms of "lolrandom". You could have a squad of 10 guys (Chaos Possesed) with str+1, Power Weapons, and that Ran like Horses if you rolled well on a chart; or... could move through cover if you rolled poorly.
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Post by Thymos » Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:52 pm

I just read the initial post but...
You said your goal was to make the game go faster.
Your new movement phase would make the game go slower.
In fact I see nothing there that speeds up gameplay.
The counter charge thing is retarded by the way. It adds nothing to the game besides making assault squads even better in cc and takes away the benefit for charging (besides better movement).
Your shoot em down rule is also kind of dumb. At the very least modify it like the WHFB stand and shoot charge reaction.
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Post by MartinHarper » Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:17 pm

> Thymos wrote:You said your goal was to make the game go faster.
> Your new movement phase would make the game go slower.

No, faster. Quasi-simultaneous movement means twice as many hands moving models around, and each player can think while the other player is making a move.
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Post by Thymos » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:03 pm

When I get my movement done in one turn instead of waiting for my opponent I can finish it pretty damn fast.
Really one of the slowest parts of 4e was alternative deployment.
Do you really think it's faster to have us wait for our opponent to finish moving instead of just moving all of the pieces myself on my turn without giving the other person the go ahead?
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:32 pm

Actually, the Counter-Charge stuff adds a lot more tactical elements to the game, since you can feint with weak squads, who the Assault squad may choose to shoot/counter-charge/run from; so that they will not get bogged down in melee. The reason being that a squad in combat loses those three options. So you can very well charge a squad with garbarge, and then mob up with much better squads; blunting the enemies advantage.
I... am not familiar with the Stand and Shoot charge reaction. I never played a lot of WHFB, I think one actual game, ever; and even then it was over 4 years ago.
I'll have to dig up my hardbound book and see if the rule is listed there.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Thymos » Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Stand and shoot basically, if I remember correctly, let's the squad make a ranged attack in response to being charged. Stand and shoot, unlike your suggestion, cannot be used if the assaulting unit is within half their charge range.
So if Knights with movement 7 charge a dwarf unit that's 12 inches away, the dwarves can shoot, but if they are only 6 inches away then they can't shoot.
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Post by Koumei » Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:32 am

Except "Shoot" and "Assault" are being rolled into the same phase, so you're basically saying "If you get assaulted, you have to shoot someone else" which is a bit odd - "Shit, they're charging us! Quick, fire a round at those other guys over there!"
And if you even think of saying "No, if you get assaulted close up, you can't shoot", then I am directing you to go place your genitals inside a running sanding belt.
Part of the slowdown in the current format is that while one person does their movement (or, for that matter, shooting), the other goes and does something else... and might forget to return (online, remember).
And JE really wants faster, and more realistic from a "How people work" sense (as opposed to a "300m tall robots with cathedrals on top wield giant chainsaws" sense). So it isn't just about speeding the game up.
What I want is to enjoy the game, and to win a lot.

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:22 pm

Ah, yeah... well, we've already got a rule that says "You can use ranged weapons in melee, provided you aren't mobbed up by swarms of enemies"; so the "stand and shoot" rule isn't good. If anything, it's against something that we do already want. Thanks for pointing it out though. Using the "Shoot them Down" rule as-is is probably what will be used, it might be modified, but that's for after play testing.
Koumei, you play against me, I don't exactly roll over.
Finally, yes, turns will -individually- last longer; but both players are active in each 'turn'; making the game play a lot more as if it's divided into 1) lots of micro-turns; and 2) each player both taking part in the same turn.
I guess that I'm trying to go for a more dynamic set of rules, and "player 1's turn" and "player 2's turn" isn't really that dynamic.
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Post by Koumei » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:17 pm

Okay, first the fixing of Codex: Tyranids. This is a set of recommended fixes that has not been playtested yet - I'm going with my gut based on past experience (and data collected from /tg/).
Changes will mostly be to encourage larger numbers on the field (as opposed to a straight Nidzilla) and to keep all the choices about equal - for instance, no-one currently takes Hormagants, we should fix this.
Universal Rules:
All Tyranids benefit from "Move Through Cover"
All Tyranids except Monstrous Creatures benefit from "Fleet"
Synapse:
Grants the "Iron Will" and "Eternal Warrior" abilities to all Tyranids in the area of effect, though they may still revert to their instinctive behaviour if they so wish.
Headquarters:
Hive Tyrants may have a retinue consisting of any of the following:
1 Zoanthrope (if Synapse is chosen, the radius extends to 24") at usual cost
1-3 Tyrant Guard at usual cost
1-3 Tyranid Warriors (may be Winged if the Tyrant is) at 11 points each (plus upgrades)
1-12 Gaunts (or Gargoyles if the Tyrant is Winged) at 3 points each (plus upgrades, may not take With Out Number)
Broodlords may purchase Shadow in the Warp for +10 points, and may deploy via Secret Deployment if they have no retinue.
Patriarch: the Patriarch is a rogue psyker of sorts, the leader of a Genestealer cult who exists to help the swarm infiltrate.
WS 2 BS 3 S 2 T 3 W 4 I 3 A 1 Ld 10 Sv 5+ (20 points)
*Independent Character, not a Tyranid
*Flak Armour, Laspistol
*May take a retinue of 1-10 mutants at 3 points each plus upgrades
*May take a Chimera at 55 points or a Rhino at 35 points as a transport
Must select one Psykic Power from below, and may select more for +15 points each.
Synapse: as normal, always on, affects the psyker as well
Puppet Dance: in the Assault phase, designate 1 enemy non-vehicle unit within 12". They must resolve a round of close-combat against themselves immediately with their current equipment and abilities, however independent characters joining the unit are unaffected by the power and cannot be targeted by the attacks made.
Warp Storm: always on - the psyker counts as being equipped with Frag and Defensive Grenades, and anyone attempting to assault or tank-shock the psyker must make a Difficult Terrain test.
Psychic Scream: as normal, always on
The Calling: if used in just one phase, a single base of regular Ripper Swarms without upgrades is summoned within 6" of the psyker and counts as having moved. If all phases in the turn are used to channel the power, 1d3+1 bases are summoned within 18", and count as having moved.
Brain Flayer: in the Shooting phase, target an enemy model within 18". Each must roll 1d6 and add their Ld score, with the winner dealing the difference between their results to the lower in Wounds with no Armour Saves allowed.
Soul Shrive: this is a Shooting attack with the following profile: 18" S 4 AP - Assault 2d6. Roll 1d6 each time the power is used: on a 6, the power becomes AP3.
Wargear Options:
Bolt Pistol (+2)
Power Weapon (+10)
Boltgun (+2)
Carapace Armour (+10)
Grow Rending Claws (+5)
Psychic Enhancer: allows the use of two powers per turn (+15)
Malanthrope: the Poison tendrils now always Wound on a 3+ unless they would naturally Wound on a 2+, as well as the usual effects. Against Gargantuan Creatures and Vehicles, use the regular Strength value. May take a retinue of 1-9 Ripper Swarms at 7 points each (before upgrades).
If a Malanthrope is fielded, any brood of Ripper Swarms may purchase With Out Number for +3 points per base.
Tyranid Warriors: note, these rules also apply to Warriors taken as Elite choices and Winged Warriors taken as Fast Attack choices.
Brood size: 3-15
Cost per model: 12 points each, before upgrades
May purchase a Bio-Electric Field (6+ Invulnerable Save) at +10 points per brood.
Elites:
Lictors: gain Inhuman Strength. If three are purchased, one brood of Genestealers may also deploy via Secret Deployment.
Giant Genestealers: a brood of Giant Genestealers consists of 3-12 models, though they may also take 1-12 Genestealers with them if they wish.
Giant Genestealer: WS 5, BS 1, S 5, T 4, W 2, I 5, A 2, Ld 10, Sv 5+ (45 points)
*Monstrous Creature, Fleet, Rending Claws, Spine Banks
*May purchase the same upgrades as Genestealers except for Infestation.
Troops:
Genestealers: 13 points each, Brood Size: 6-18
Scything Talons become +3 points, Scuttlers become +2 points
May also take Infestation: +25 points per brood. Place two tokens on the board during the infiltration phase of deployment. These are subject to the same rules as infiltration. At any stage on your turn you may suddenly deploy the entire brood at one of those tokens, removing the other. They may not move, but may Fleet and Assault as normal. If an enemy unit should get within 6" and line of sight of a token, you must immediately place the brood - at either token, removing the other.
If 18 models are in the brood, they may be joined by a Giant Genestealer at +45 points (before upgrades).
Mutants (Half Genestealers): a unit consists of 15-30 models. These are not Tyranids. They may be accompanied by 1-10 Traitor Guard, 1-6 Big Mutants and 1-3 Genestealers.
Mutant: WS 3 BS 2 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 3 A 1 Ld 5 Sv 6+
Big Mutant: WS 3 BS 2 S 4 T 4 W 2 I 3 A 2 Ld 5 Sv 6+
Traitor Guard: WS 3 BS 3 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 3 A 1 (2) Ld 6 Sv 6+
Equipment: Flak Armour, Frag Grenades, 1 CCW (except Genestealers)
Traitor Guard also have Las Pistols and Lasguns or Shotguns
*Mutants and Big Mutants may purchase Las Pistols for +1 point each
*Everyone except the Genestealers may be equipped with Krak Grenades for +15 points per unit
*2 Traitor Guard may be equipped with Flamers, Grenade Launchers or Sniper Rifles for +5 points each.
*2 Traitor Guard may form a Weapons Team with a Heavy Bolter for +10 points, Autocannon for +10 points or Mortar for +5 points.
*Big Mutants are Relentless
*1 Big Mutant may purchase a Heavy Stubber for +7 points or a Rocket Launcher for +15 points.
*When within 12" of a Patriarch, the whole unit becomes Fearless.
Gaunts: brood size becomes 8-40
Instinctive behaviour: Lurk
For +40 points per brood a Brood Nest may be purchased, which infiltrates and causes a surrounding 6" radius to become Difficult Terrain. It has the following Profile: WS - BS - S - T 5 W 5 I - A - Ld - Sv 5+
The entire brood may be held in reserves and deploy from the nest with a +1 bonus to their Reserves roll.
*Click Click Click: if the unit consisted of 40 models when purchased and, at the time of shooting, consists of 30 or more models, then any 6 rolled to hit with a shooting attack automatically misses due to running out of ammo and needing to reload.
Hormagants: 8 points each, brood size becomes 8-40
Instinctive behaviour: Move, Fleet and Charge the closest enemy.
Hormagants may also purchase a Brood Nest as above, and may purchase With Out Number as well, at the same cost as Gaunts.
*Click Click Click: as above
Ripper Swarms: 3-15 bases per brood, 8 points each
If the swarm numbers 15 bases, then Wounds may be scattered out between them in any given attack, most annoyingly. This does not include Instant Death, however - each Instant Death kills one base of Rippers. This ability continues even after the number is reduced to less than 15.
Instinctive behaviour: run towards objectives and sit there, charging anything that gets too close. If there are no objectives to capture, they instead run, fleet and charge the closest enemy.
Fast Attack:
Raveners: brood size 1-9, and gain a few additional options:
*Scything Talons + Lash arms (+10 Points)
*Fleshborer in Thorax (+7 points)
Instinctive behaviour: run towards objectives and sit there, charging anything that gets too close. If there are no objectives to capture, they instead run, shoot and charge the closest enemy.
Gargoyles: brood size 8-40, 10 points each
Instinctive behaviour: Lurk
Meiotic Spores: as per Imperial Armour, 1-5 per Brood
Heavy Support:
Biovore: 1-3 per Hv slot, 35 points each (plus mine type).
Upon dying, a Biovore bursts into 1d3 Spore Mines of the type selected.
Zoanthrope: 1-3 per Hv slot, 32 points each. 3 that are within 6" of each other, with the same powers may get benefits:
-Psychic Scream: extends to 24"
-The Horror: forces enemies to take morale checks or flee whenever they suffer casualties from the Zoanthropes
-Synapse: extends to 18"
-Warp Blast: if fired unfocused becomes S 6 AP 5 Assault 1 Large Blast (but is fired only once, Twin-Linked)
Carnifex: 1-3 per Hv slot, plus 0-40 Gaunts and 0-18 Genestealers per "brood". The smaller creatures receive a 4+ cover save just for being within 6" of a Carnifex, and a Carnifex may at any point negate an unsaved Wound by sacrificing 1d6+1 Gaunts or Genestealers. If not enough are there, this ability cannot be used. Additionally, carnifexes start with 2x Scything Talons or 1x Scything, 1x Rending by default, for free. Other weapons can replace these at the usual costs. If they elect not to upgrade to ranged weapons, they may take a tail weapon for free
Hierodule: may be accompanied by 0-40 Gaunts or Hormagants, and grants the cover save as above.
Trygon: may be accompanied by 0-5 Raveners, and leaves a permanent crater upon Deep Striking. Keep in mind the errata rule about Deep Striking: if it deploys into an enemy unit, instead of being destroyed it just repositions them around it and counts as charging into an assault.
Other:
Symbiote Rippers: instead just grant an additional WS 3 S 4 attack at the end of the close combat phase, one for each model with this biomorph.
Thornback: anyone who charges the creature with this biomorph instantly takes 1d6 S 10 hits (per unit, not per model).
Stratagems:
Defensive: Ripper Infestation (1 Stratagem point)
-Every model fielded by the Tyranid player counts as having Symbiote Rippers
Defensive: Spawning Pool (2 Stratagem points)
-One 6x6" area counts as Difficult Dangerous terrain for all non-Tyranid models. Any Tyranid model held in reserve may be deployed from this point, which can be placed anywhere on the map and cannot be destroyed, and may still shoot and assault in the same turn.
Defensive: Connecting to the Hive Fleet (1 Stratagem point)
-during Deployment, place 3 Capilliary towers and 1 Spore Chimney. The entire battlefield is affected by The Shadow in the Warp, and the Chimney grants a 4+ cover save to any Tyranid unit with even one model within 6". Additionally, it is Dangerous Terrain to non-Tyranids approaching within 3" and any blast weapon that scatters onto it causes 1 Meiotic Spore to float out in a random direction (the Tyranid player may choose if a Hit is rolled).
Offensive: Tunnels (2 points)
-before the Firestorm, the Tyranid player may select one Bastion. It suffers a S10 AP1 hit and is Shaken (including anyone inside) on the first turn, assuming it survives the hit at all. Additionally, all Trygons and Raveners automatically succeed their Reserves roll on the first turn.
Offensive: Genestealer Assault (1 point)
-before the Firestorm, the Tyranid player may deploy any of their Genestealer, Giant Genestealer or Mutant broods/units on the field, including deploying them inside unoccupied bastions. They might be hit by the Firestorm just like defenders.
Offensive: Spore Drop (1 point)
-anything that Deep Strikes into battle gains a 4+ cover save on their first turn upon arriving, and may still assault.
Last edited by Koumei on Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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