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## Converting people to Tome

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fectin
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Post by fectin » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:12 pm

I strongly recommend an approach that says "A is better than B" over one which says "B is bad".
This is a group of people who have already decided that B is good enough to pend rather a lot of time on. They are going to be skeptical of the "B is bad" argument right out of the gate, in the same way that people here are skeptical when shadzar says that roleplaying is impossible in 3E. They have no opinion on A though, so that argument is much more likely to be well received.
Also: remember that when you're selling something, you have to sell yourself first.
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:19 am

Actually, fectin has a point. Try pitching tome stuff as something that is good in its own right, and good in a different way from the other options. Don't get down on pf. Just play up what makes tome different/unique as an alternative rather than as a fix.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
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Mask_De_H
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Post by Mask_De_H » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:34 am

If you sell the Tomes as Gonzo D&D where everything is more awesome and flavorful, then you can convert people. But I agree with pretty much everything else PR said.

> FrankTrollman wrote: Halfling women, as I'm sure you are aware, combine all the "fun" parts of pedophilia without any of the disturbing, illegal, or immoral parts.

> K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.

> Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.

> Whipstitch wrote:You're on a mad quest, dude. I'd sooner bet on Zeus getting bored and letting Sisyphus put down the fucking rock.

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Bihlbo
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Post by Bihlbo » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:35 am

Someone feel like crapping out a "Tome pros" list without bothering with "3.5 cons"?
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Chamomile
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Post by Chamomile » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:52 am

That is a good idea. I'll try that.
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Judging__Eagle
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  Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:18 pm

> Psychic Robot wrote:look you can't convert people to the tomes.
> if ordinary people who aren't rules spergs like we are here play the tomes, they're going to shit themselves with OMG OVERPOWERED, especially when the base tome material is on par with heavily optimized casters. codzilla accidentally breaking the game will not compare to what tome classes will deliberately do.
> if you honestly want the players to try a powered-up version of the base classes then use tome of battle.

I've done it with my own group, everyone who DMs for that group only uses Tome stuff now, dubbed "Frank and Beans" D&D, since one of the players is intentionally too dumb to remember that it's "Frank and K(ieth)".
Pro Tome stuff:
Necromancy:
Clean up and pre-agree on whether Necromancy is [for this campaign/game/group/etc.]:
-Playing with Dark Fire
or
-Spreading a Crawling Darkness
-Allow players to play undead that doesn't break the game (Vampires, Revenants, Ghouls, Swordwraiths); at level 1
-Allow Necromancer Wizards to actuallu have undead minions; without making everyone cry
-Rules for creating undead that don't make everyone cry
-Rules on how to make all currently published Undead; that are balanced, rigourously fair and vetted by people who can out-sage the D&D "sage". [the fact that Frank knows the rules of D&D better than that assclown who called themselves the sage is highly important, since it means if he says something is balanced, it means he probably knows what he's talking about]
Dungeonomicon
-Explain and allow for the existence of plausible reasons to build underground
-Fix "inifinte" range spells such as Scry, Teleport, etc. [also fixes Scry & Die issues]
-Convert the Monk into a classic Wuxia style character that doesn't need to multiclass in order to remain "at par" to the DMG and MM outlined CR calculation system. A monk that doesn't suck.
-Explain Gold, Magic and Soul economies
Tome of Fiends
-Fix 3.5 Wish nonsense back to 2e/3e Wish reasonablity
-Remove "unreasonable magic item prolifieration"; also "heroic/legendary/epic magic shops"
-Remove "real magic items purchasable for gold" (ex. 15,001+ gp items); trading in 10 +1 swords for a +3 sword is no longer allowed. This seems bad, but is ultimately good for the game.
-Allow "wooden nickel" magic items (0-15,000 gp); since they can't ever break the game
-Allow "reasonable magic item proliferation" (0-15k gp items)
-Re-evaluate and clean up Calling and Summoning
-Explaining why Outsiders would desire to be summoned (the Prime, it's better than Cancun)
-Allow for an Aasimar and a Tiefling that doesn't make anyone cry (+0 LA)
-Outline low, mid and high level adventures on the Lower Planes (level 1 adventures in Gehenna; Acheron, Hades, etc. is a good thing for the game, and increases game referee and player creativity)
-Allow players to play as fiendish characters, that doesn't make the game system cry (Tru Fiend, Fiendish Brute)
-Allow players to play a "spell caster" that is on par with martial characters for tactical/strategic use (the Conduit of the Planes)
Races of War
-Replace the various martial classes with things that actually can "go to 20"; with no one ever crying. Yes, a Fighter that can go to 20, also a Barbarian that never has to multi-class or PrC.
-Replace the hundreds of generally unbalanced and useless feats with 30 feats that actuall matter. Simplicity can be a good thing.
-Explain the facts of War in a D&D world
-Outline a War scale game that is simpler to use and better than the Mini HB game
-Explain various species, at war or not
-Introduce suits of armour, sheilds and non-armours aside from the standard of "chain shirt; breastplate; fullplate"
Book of Gears
-Mandate that "numeric bonuses" are the pre-requisite of what a magic item should do. The basic Magic item does things that need verbal description, beyond "+X to Y rolls".
-Establish and define how magic items are used; lowering the "total" number worn by a creature; but also vastly widening options on how magic items can be used (want to wear 8 rings on your fingers (such as Mandarin of Marvel comic); or two crowns together (such as the Pharoh of Egypt) or three crowns (such as some kings of Spain), like actual characters in history and fiction actually do? Teah, that's totally reasonable).
-Explain Monsterous Vermin
-Discuss contructs
Basically, the point of Tomes is to reduce head scratching and allow more options for players; while at the same time increasing amount of balance within the game system.
The people that benefit the most from this content are the non-optimizing roleplayers. The optimizers won't ever suffer; since they'll always try to do "the best the can". Therefore, as the game approaches balance, the non-optimizers approach parity with optimizers.
This is something that really needs to be emphasized; The Tomes is for groups who want to roleplay; not merely hack-n-slash.
... and that's just off of the top of my head; going through the actual chapter headings helps
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
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deathdealingjawa
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  Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:34 pm

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Post by deathdealingjawa » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:13 pm

> Chamomile wrote:

> > Seerow wrote:

> > > RobbyPants wrote:Seconded.

> > Thirded.

> Fourthed.

virgil was just informed of the request and said he would post it tonight.
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OgreBattle
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  Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

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Post by OgreBattle » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:51 am

The biggest pro is just how funny it is to read the fluff and you can only go "yeah, now it makes sense"
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