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## Are pump Clerics competitive in modern MTG?

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OgreBattle
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### Are pump Clerics competitive in modern MTG?

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Post by OgreBattle » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:24 pm

These are pretty much my favorite MTG cards in terms of much enjoyment I got out of playing them (with memorable artwork too). But are they below the power curve of modern MTG 2 drop creatures? I figure cards like Nantuko Shade (BB 1/1 /w B:+1/+1 until end of turn) are undercosted though.
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:47 pm

I don't play any Modern (I pretty much exclusively play EDH now) so I don't really know, but ... A 2/1 swampbreather for BB seems weak. Even blue has a 3/2 flyer for U.
And that's not even getting into tempo or card advantage discussions, just pure card quality.
Here's what Luis Scott-Vargas had to say about Nantuko Shade when it was reprinted in M11:

> LSV wrote:Nantuko Shade
> Constructed: 2.0/5.0
> I just can't get excited about this card. It might have been awesome many years ago, but now we have no Cabal Coffers and almost ten years of power creep. Most mana curves in Standard are way too tight to mess around with foolishness like Nantuko Shade, and there still isn't a reason to go mono-black. Clearly the card is powerful, but this time around I don't think that's quite enough.
> Limited: 3.0/5.0
> This really isn't that much better than a Looming Shade, though I suspect people will overvalue it due to its rarity. Shades clearly get better in heavy black decks, and in mono-black probably edge out most removal spells. Passing this is probably a great way to make sure your neighbor is in black, since it's NANTUKO SHADE!

Last edited by NineInchNall on Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Midnight_v
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Post by Midnight_v » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:41 pm

No, and I'm not sure if you mean "MODERN the format or modern as in "todays" MTG, either way the answers is kind of "no".
There's a Gp in richmond going on right now and its mostly combo decks. Affinity, Splinter-twin, Ad Nauseum.
If you mean like "Todays" magic and I think you do... They're not GROSSLY overpowered there are more powerful aggro cards to be sure.
Recently the most popular 2CC creature was Pack Rat that was a month ago and it can win the game by itself sometimes.
What think you could do is use Nykthos, Shrine to nix and play a mono-black devotion deck.
I don't think they have a pump monster of that type in standard at least right now.
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Almaz
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### Re: Are pump Clerics competitive in modern MTG?

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Post by Almaz » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:18 pm

Nantuko Shade is the new standard. Sorry, but Fallen Empires shit won't cut it, and only barely did when it was released.
The only reason those clerics would possibly be good is you can turn on first strike. But then I could drop a Black Knight and not have them be swept by Electrickery or similar "do 1 damage to all" bullshit.
Last edited by Almaz on Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:46 pm

Yeah, if you just invested two mana casting and three mana pumping something, and it dies to an Electrickery ... That's a harsh dose of reality there.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Red_Rob
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### Re: Are pump Clerics competitive in modern MTG?

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Post by Red_Rob » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:49 pm

> Almaz wrote:Nantuko Shade is the new standard. Sorry, but Fallen Empires shit won't cut it, and only barely did when it was released.

Ahem. Any creature that was part of one of the most successful decks of all time must have something going for it.
As for the original question, if you are asking whether they could cut it in a current tournament deck, the answer is probably not. But that's not really because they're bad compared to current 2-drops. Look at some of the black 2-drop creatures in Standard at the moment:
The Pump Knights don't seem too out of place in that line up. The real problem is that the game has changed around them. Games used to go longer as people weren't as up on mana curves and tempo, allowing the pump abilities to come into play. In addition large creatures were worse and therefore saw less play, meaning a 2/1 First Striker could deal with most opposition that hit the table. Nowadays the turn after this guy hits the table there will most likely be a 3/3 or 4/4 hitting the ground that will make him obsolete.
So really, it isn't 2-drops getting better that has boned the poor pump knight, it's the rebalancing and powering up of the larger creatures that has knocked them off the top of the pecking order.
Last edited by Red_Rob on Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:59 pm

He's obviously not talking about, "Modern the format," because you're actually not allowed to play those cards in that format. Stromgald Crusade has a similar feel, though.
Modern {B}{B} creatures I might play in constructed include:

- Diabolic edict with a body.
- Planeswalker removal that's also a combo piece.
- A creature that keeps coming back.
- Another creature that keeps coming back.

Things I'm less confident about are:

- A combo piece
- EDH has too much graveyard stuff (and I'm part of that)
- This looks like repeatable removal in a tribal deck
- This could do some fun things in politics

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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:24 pm

Oh, god. I just realized I wasn't reading the card right. BB for a +1/+0? BAH HA HA HA HA.
No. Horrifically weak.
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OgreBattle
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### Re: Are pump Clerics competitive in modern MTG?

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Post by OgreBattle » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:40 am

> Red_Rob wrote: So really, it isn't 2-drops getting better that has boned the poor pump knight, it's the rebalancing and powering up of the larger creatures that has knocked them off the top of the pecking order.

That's a good point, now 5 mana creatures can win the game by themselves, something thaty didn't exist in the era of pump Cleric necropetence, making "BB:+1/+0" worth a lot less when you should be spending that mana to summon super demons. I've found some functional reprints of them for the modern format:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/ ... 20Cavalier
Trading First Strike for Flying, most comments say "Can block ___ Angel" and gave them a pretty high rating. In some ways the pumping mechanic was replaced with level up mechanics:
So its ability to hold off more expensive threats is valued. I could see a new Order card being something like...
BB
2/1
First Strike
: Gains protection from White
[BB]: Gains Death Touch & Life Link
Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:01 am, edited 5 times in total.
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TheFlatline
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Post by TheFlatline » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:58 am

Fallen Empires sucked even back when it was relatively new. I remember back in the day once Ice Age hit and FE basically stalled they'd sell boosters for 99 cents a pack while everything else was 2-3 bucks.
I bowed out of Magic back around Homelands, which was right after Ice Age if memory serves. I tried peeking back in a couple years ago and the game had changed so much in the intervening time that I shrugged and left. Entire decks were supplanted by a couple cards interacting and there was a definite power creep where you had to stay on top of some of the new fads or else you'd never stay competitive.
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NineInchNall
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Post by NineInchNall » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:10 am

You should be using your mana for something like Batman on turn three, not have to spend/hold it all to get value from your 2-drop. The pumpable creature is actually a much better deal for midrange/control decks that don't rely on a big board presence. That's why Ætherling shows up as a finisher.
EDIT: Fallen Empires did at least have the occasionally playable High Tide and the always awesome Hymn to Tourach.
Last edited by NineInchNall on Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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RadiantPhoenix
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:34 am

Aetherling also has, "{U}: Don't die", while the clerics only have protection from a color or two, which still doesn't defend them from... say... Shrivel. Or, more likely:

1. Any red green or blue removal spell or large/indestructible/first-strike creature.
2. Day of Judgement
3. Curse of Death's Hold
4. A reanimated Elesh Norn
5. Black Sun's Zenith

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Midnight_v
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### Re: Are pump Clerics competitive in modern MTG?

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Post by Midnight_v » Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:43 pm

> Red_Rob wrote:

> > Almaz wrote:Nantuko Shade is the new standard. Sorry, but Fallen Empires shit won't cut it, and only barely did when it was released.

> Ahem. Any creature that was part of one of the most successful decks of all time must have something going for it.
> As for the original question, if you are asking whether they could cut it in a current tournament deck, the answer is probably not. But that's not really because they're bad compared to current 2-drops. Look at some of the black 2-drop creatures in Standard at the moment:
> The Pump Knights don't seem too out of place in that line up. The real problem is that the game has changed around them. Games used to go longer as people weren't as up on mana curves and tempo, allowing the pump abilities to come into play. In addition large creatures were worse and therefore saw less play, meaning a 2/1 First Striker could deal with most opposition that hit the table. Nowadays the turn after this guy hits the table there will most likely be a 3/3 or 4/4 hitting the ground that will make him obsolete.
> So really, it isn't 2-drops getting better that has boned the poor pump knight, it's the rebalancing and powering up of the larger creatures that has knocked them off the top of the pecking order.

None of those cards is actually played in any standard decks.
You have Pack Rat.
I'm personally running this list:
7 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
3 Dreadbore
2 Hero's Downfall
4 Temple of Malice
2 Lifebane Zombie
SB: 2 Lifebane Zombie
SB: 2 Mizzium Mortars
SB: 3 Dark Betrayal
SB: 3 Doom Blade
SB: 4 Skullcrack
SB: 1 Dreadbore
Demonstrated here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVs8IHkVh9A
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http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... sters.html
Its some fairly pro guys and they go through the deck choices, so it might be relevant for you to see and judge for yourself the power level of the cards at play.
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Mistborn
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Post by Mistborn » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:08 pm

@Midnight_v is there a reason your version of that deck doesn't have Young Pyromancer. I play that card in modern and it's stone cold awesome.
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Ravengm
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### Re: Are pump Clerics competitive in modern MTG?

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Post by Ravengm » Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:09 pm

> OgreBattle wrote:I figure cards like Nantuko Shade (BB 1/1 /w B:+1/+1 until end of turn) are undercosted though.

Not at all. Nantuko Shade wasn't even played when it came back in Standard a few years back. It was boss when it was released in Torment, but since the Great Creature Rebalance Project, a creature that's a mana sink in order to do anything just isn't good enough. Your options at 3-5 mana are super important to hit early, so an effective mana curve needs to happen.
Edit because I hit submit before I was done, derp:

> OgreBattle wrote: That's a good point, now 5 mana creatures can win the game by themselves, something thaty didn't exist in the era of pump Cleric necropetence, making "BB:+1/+0" worth a lot less when you should be spending that mana to summon super demons. I've found some functional reprints of them for the modern format:
> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/ ... 20Cavalier
> (Stillmoon Cavalier)
> (Stromgald Crusader)
> Trading First Strike for Flying, most comments say "Can block ___ Angel" and gave them a pretty high rating. In some ways the pumping mechanic was replaced with level up mechanics:
> (Figure of Destiny)
> So its ability to hold off more expensive threats is valued. I could see a new Order card being something like...
> BB
> 2/1
> First Strike
> : Gains protection from White
> [BB]: Gains Death Touch & Life Link

Out of those, Figure of Destiny is really the only one that sees a significant amount of play, and that's because the pumps are permanent. The new card you listed would likely just be a limited-only card (and it would be pretty reasonable there), but I can't see it getting much constructed play.
Last edited by Ravengm on Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:04 am

You know, around here we called them Pump Knights due to their similarity to the White and Black Knights, and I was wondering if the Pump Clerics thing was just a regional difference.
But then it hit me that you probably used that terminology just to get The Den to produce a "Clerics are Underpowered" thread.
Well done.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Wed Mar 12, 2014 5:13 am

I've heard good things about Geist of Saint Traft.
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shadzar
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Post by shadzar » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:06 am

17 mountains
23 lightning bolts
this can beat pump knights still so they are always going to be weak.
Play the game, not the rules.

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Leress
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Post by Leress » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:14 am

> shadzar wrote:17 mountains
> 23 lightning bolts
> this can beat pump knights still so they are always going to be weak.

Are you in competition with yourself on saying the dumbest thing possible?

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shadzar
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Post by shadzar » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:22 am

Fallen Empires cards being discussed so Ice Age is what I am seeing as being modern in terms of rules. 40 card decks are all that is needed to play still during the time of Ice Age, and my rulebook (they use to come in starters) says that deck is legal for the game of MtG.
Last Time i played seriously was Weatherlight, and refuse to play with anyone with a deck with things such as stupid equipment, planeswalkers, etc this new age and fucked up pokemon/LfR the Gathering is set up with.
play pump knights (black or white) against the deck i listed and see which wins.
Play the game, not the rules.

> Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.

> Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.

good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Leress
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Post by Leress » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:39 am

> shadzar wrote:Fallen Empires cards being discussed so Ice Age is what I am seeing as being modern in terms of rules. 40 card decks are all that is needed to play still during the time of Ice Age, and my rulebook (they use to come in starters) says that deck is legal for the game of MtG.
> Last Time i played seriously was Weatherlight, and refuse to play with anyone with a deck with things such as stupid equipment, planeswalkers, etc this new age and fucked up pokemon/LfR the Gathering is set up with.
> play pump knights (black or white) against the deck i listed and see which wins.

You can only have 4 of any one card except basic lands.

> Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!

> Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!

> Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.

> I want him to tongue-punch my box.

]

> The divine in me says the divine in you should go fuck itself.

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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:52 am

> Josh_Kablack wrote:You know, around here we called them Pump Knights due to their similarity to the White and Black Knights, and I was wondering if the Pump Clerics thing was just a regional difference.
> But then it hit me that you probably used that terminology just to get The Den to produce a "Clerics are Underpowered" thread.
> Well done.

Like a decade ago, Magic did a grand errata where cards were assigned to D&D classes. So while if I recall correctly the original Order of the Ebon Hand cards say something stupid like "Summon Order" they are now "Clerics."
Also: if you had unlimited cards and you wanted to make the perfect deck in the original rules before 60 card decks and repeat limits were instituted, then obviously the deck you wanted to field was:
19 Black Lotuses
16 Ancestral Recalls
3 Time Twisters
2 Lightning Bolts
Any other deck was pretty much by definition inferior to that one.
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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:02 am

If you want to talk the actual Fallen Empires metagame, the degenerate deck of just lightning bolts and mountains was actually underpowered.
Remember that there were only two formats and in one the power 9 were mandatory and in the other there was a key shift between decks that beat it. Before they restriced Balance, running 4 of those with 4 Fountain of Youth, and as many cheap mana artifacts as possible mixed and maybe Armegeddon mixed with black for Dark Ritual Hymn to Tourach, Hypno Spector and Mind Twist was able to keep the bolt deck from playing more than 4 or 5 before it had adequate life gain.
Then Ice Age was released and Eric Lowry's Land Tax, Zuran Orb, Despotic Scepter, Ennervate, Stasis variant was pretty nearly unbeatable until Z Orb and Land Tax got restricted.
After that, Necropotence actually became viable and the degenerate bolt deck was a valid test metric again.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Mistborn
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Post by Mistborn » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:14 pm

Speaking of MtG anyone here play Modern? The format has really been taking off lately (with the GP Richmond being the largest tournament ever).
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shadzar
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Post by shadzar » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:44 am

> Leress wrote:

> > shadzar wrote:Fallen Empires cards being discussed so Ice Age is what I am seeing as being modern in terms of rules. 40 card decks are all that is needed to play still during the time of Ice Age, and my rulebook (they use to come in starters) says that deck is legal for the game of MtG.
> > Last Time i played seriously was Weatherlight, and refuse to play with anyone with a deck with things such as stupid equipment, planeswalkers, etc this new age and fucked up pokemon/LfR the Gathering is set up with.
> > play pump knights (black or white) against the deck i listed and see which wins.

> You can only have 4 of any one card except basic lands.

That is a tournament only rule. Ante cards are optional per the rules because you must have permission to use them from your opponent, but other than those any number of cards is legal within a minimum 40 card deck.
Since they no longer provide rulebooks with starters or fatpacks or whatever, it may be hard, but i challenge you to show me where in the rulebook it states there is any banned cards or restricted to number X cards?
like D&D under WotC, MtG went from a fun game for people to play to only be designed for tournaments, and that meant the game MTG, like D&D, died in the process.
Should I get out any of the rules books from Weatherlight back to give you a page number where the 40 card deck size and permission required for ante card is? might not be so easy to find the beta or unlimited rulebooks, but lord knows I have some Ice age laying around and FE was part of the Ice Age block following the Revised "block" (Antiquities, The Dark, Legends). 4th had no block, FE was the first expansion that was considered to be called a "block". and the only expansion for a block that came out before its "core set". Mirage came out before Visions and Weatherlight and the the precedent from then onwards for "blocks" (and with it ante cards died and were not printed since Homelands in the Ice Age block).
so that means even the Ice Age rulebook will be too new for the rules of the game FE fell under, but at least it still had to rules for MtG, not the rules for DCI.
Last edited by shadzar on Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Play the game, not the rules.

> Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.

> Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.

good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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