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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:22 am

> Red_Rob wrote:A good point. One thing I noticed was that the intention for Spellpower was to only doubled your base slots, not additional ones from high Int or specialisation etc. Thanks for highlighting that, I've amended the descriptions as that wasn't clear.

This makes me much happier, though still not quite so happy...

> Now, it still almost doubles a very low level spellcasters slots per day, which you rightly state makes it the top choice, however there are a few mitigating factors. Firstly, its power drops off very quickly. At level 2 there is no contest, but at level 4 it is no better than several other options and at level 6 it looks decidedly ropy. Therefore choosing Minor Spellpower is a case of power now for less power later.

ALARM BELLS RINGING. RING BRING RRRRRIIING.
Power now for power later is just a bad idea, and never should ever happen. If you're saying a player can be broken now and suck later, you have a bad system.

> Secondly, whilst I know this wasn't spelled out explicitly the intention with the "1 item per level" is that this should be mainly items the party finds rather than just choosing a new item off the list every level. Whilst there is definitely the option to try and trade for a Spellpower item, at extremely low levels it isn't a given that you will have one available, and as noted above after that I don't think it's such an auto-first-pick item.

Still not a viable system. If we're generating characters at level 2, my character will be Sir Spellpowerington from the Spellpower Temple of Spellpoweria if that's what it takes to get an awesome item like that. And other people will do that too. Plus, if you're going by the "you never see other magic spellpower items", then you're implying that the party won't be fighting other casters and aren't going to ever get into a big trade city. And both of those seems unlikely and unfortunate.

> You're always going to have certain items or abilities that are perfect for a "sweet spot", and I'm comfortable this isn't grossly out of line.

I disagree. You'll probably need more opinions on this, though.
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:08 am

> ...You Lost Me wrote:Power now for power later is just a bad idea, and never should ever happen. If you're saying a player can be broken now and suck later, you have a bad system.

I agree that that is a laudable goal, and should be your aim when designing things, but the fact of the matter is that in a levelled system it is inevitable that some things will be more attractive at some levels and less at others. +1D6 damage is boss at level 1 and sucks at level 6, same for DR5/- and extra first level spell slots. Conversely Metamagic feats and Immunity to Death effects are pretty much useless until you are mid level. This is what I meant by abilities having a "sweet spot". The only way to avoid this is to have everything scale to level, and that throws up massive overcomplication issues.
The key is making sure that the swing isn't too large. "Broken now, suck later" is terrible, but "useful now, bit ropy later" is less of a concern. I guess I just don't think an extra 2 or 3 first level spell slots is that powerful, even at low levels.

> ...You Lost Me wrote:Still not a viable system. If we're generating characters at level 2, my character will be Sir Spellpowerington from the Spellpower Temple of Spellpoweria if that's what it takes to get an awesome item like that. And other people will do that too. Plus, if you're going by the "you never see other magic spellpower items", then you're implying that the party won't be fighting other casters and aren't going to ever get into a big trade city. And both of those seems unlikely and unfortunate.

I don't see why premade characters should just get to pick all their items either, to be honest. A second level character is supposed to have found a random item, so why does a premade get to pick every time? As for trading, items sell for half value when selling in a hurry, so you'd have to be level 3 to trade for a Spellpower item. At that point you traded away 2 items with stat boosts and abilities for 1 Spellpower item, so I think the power gain will about balance out.
Let's look at the facts. A second level specialist Wizard gets 2 1st level slots, +1 from Int, +1 from specialization. Minor Spellpower gives him +2 slots. This is nice, but it's only a 50% increase. Conversely, if he took Lesser Recall, he could recall one of his 1st level spells, effectively giving him +1 slot, however when he gets to level 3 this can be used on a 2nd level spell. I think most people will agree that spell slots are worth more than the sum of their parts, so I don't agree that our hypothetical Wizard will be chucking his Recall item, plus another item that boosts Con or Saves or whatever and has another ability, for the Spellpower item. Then we have Lesser Metamagic. A Rod of Repeat or Maximise applied to 3 spells a day could easily be as useful as extra spell slots.
Overall, whilst Spellpower is possibly slightly better than other options for a short window, the fact that this window is at very low levels means I'm not so worried. This is the period when characters don't have the resources or mobility options to pick up whatever items they want, so whilst they may be able to get one, it's not like every 2nd level caster will. And if they do, it doesn't make them dominate the party, because spellcasting at low levels is pretty low powered anyway.
You have convinced me to give this another look, but after checking the evidence I'm happy it isn't a major problem.
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:38 am

As for "players shouldn't get to choose their items", well I raise you that I can write whatever backstory I need in order to get the item I want. And if you're not letting me get the item, even if it's critical to my backstory, you're not very nice.
And even if we're going for a 2-for-1 deal, players totally will be able to trade at level 2. Because they will find loot, and if you're not putting any magic items in loot, then you're not very nice for two reasons.
And looking at the wizard. They start off with 4 spells per day, meaning 1 spell per encounter. That 50% increase that you shrugged off, well, let me reiterate it. That is a 50% increase. That means in half their encounters they have twice the amount of power. That ridiculously ridiculous. I agree that there are sweet spots (like +1d6 damage), but two bonus spells per day is still far more than that.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:07 am

> You Lost Me... wrote:As for "players shouldn't get to choose their items", well I raise you that I can write whatever backstory I need in order to get the item I want. And if you're not letting me get the item, even if it's critical to my backstory, you're not very nice.
> And even if we're going for a 2-for-1 deal, players totally will be able to trade at level 2. Because they will find loot, and if you're not putting any magic items in loot, then you're not very nice for two reasons.

Whilst this sounds like a reasonable argument, it really isn't. Character backgrounds have to confirm to the rules of the game first and foremost. Why can't you write a background that says your Fighter was left a Vorpal sword by his father? Because the rules say you don't get Vorpal swords at level 1. So, if the rules say you get a random item at level 2, well then you can't write a background that says you get a specific item at level 2! I mean, you can generate your item and then work a backstory around that, or you can write your backstory so that any item will work, but trying to break the system to accomodate your backstory is not kosher however you try to do it. Can I write a background stating my Int-dump-stat Barbarian is actually a genius, and boost his Int to 18? Clearly not. The same principle applies.
I'm not saying low level characters can never find these items, or that the MC should artificially restrict them. Just that the realities of adventuring means not every character will have one available at level 2, and at levels 3 and 4 their desirability drops off sharply.

> You Lost Me... wrote:And looking at the wizard. They start off with 4 spells per day, meaning 1 spell per encounter. That 50% increase that you shrugged off, well, let me reiterate it. That is a 50% increase. That means in half their encounters they have twice the amount of power. That ridiculously ridiculous. I agree that there are sweet spots (like +1d6 damage), but two bonus spells per day is still far more than that.

I don't disagree it's powerful. Magic items are supposed to be powerful. The point is whether it's more powerful than other available options. The examples I gave were an item of Lesser Recall, and an item of Repeat 3/day (both of which can be used on 2nd level spells). Given that a character can't get every item they want due to the realities of trading and availability, what makes you so sure that a low level caster will always choose Spellpower?
Your two main points seem to be that every low level caster will always have a Spellpower item and this will unbalance the game in their favour. I don't see they are automatic first pick, and I don't agree they are unbalancing. To me they're simply a good option among other good options, that give the character a boost to staying power and flexibility.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:56 pm

Sure, if you take my argument to the dumbest of extremes, it will break down the way everything breaks down. I could claim that your Oberoni-style ruling allows DMs to only let players use +1d6 fire damage weapons, which makes for a terrible game as well. But I'm not using ad absurdum because that's a bad idea, what I am talking about is setting agnosticism. In an agnostic setting (read: the baseline for D&D games), a player should be able to get an item they want. But this is a different argument entirely.

> I don't disagree it's powerful. Magic items are supposed to be powerful. The point is whether it's more powerful than other available options. The examples I gave were an item of Lesser Recall, and an item of Repeat 3/day (both of which can be used on 2nd level spells). Given that a character can't get every item they want due to the realities of trading and availability, what makes you so sure that a low level caster will always choose Spellpower?

I... yes. It is more powerful, that's what I've been saying.
Your lesser recall spell is a flexible version of lesser spellpower, which is awesome at higher levels and worse at level 2. At level 2, a character can say "I can have 1 extra sleep AND 1 extra color spray, or I can have 1 extra sleep OR 1 extra color spray" when they compare lesser spellpower to lesser recall. The choice is obvious then, pretty obvious at level 3-4, and then it's totally in favor of recall after that. But there's still no contest at level 2. I'm more than willing to bring up how minor spellpower fails because it's power now for power later, but that's not my original argument.

> Your two main points seem to be that every low level caster will always have a Spellpower item and this will unbalance the game in their favour. I don't see they are automatic first pick, and I don't agree they are unbalancing. To me they're simply a good option among other good options, that give the character a boost to staying power and flexibility.

There is no better option at level 2 for any spellcaster. A melee has many options, and they're all OK, but a caster will always want more spell slots when they are starved for spell slots. There is 1 competitive option at levels 3-4, and then after level 5 minor spellpower becomes cute.
If you can somehow show me how +1d6 damage on one attack with a 50% chance of hitting matters more than being able to sling 2 AoE SoDs in a combat, your position doesn't really hold.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:10 am

> You lost Me... wrote:Sure, if you take my argument to the dumbest of extremes, it will break down the way everything breaks down. I could claim that your Oberoni-style ruling allows DMs to only let players use +1d6 fire damage weapons, which makes for a terrible game as well. But I'm not using ad absurdum because that's a bad idea, what I am talking about is setting agnosticism. In an agnostic setting (read: the baseline for D&D games), a player should be able to get an item they want. But this is a different argument entirely.

> You lost Me... wrote:Your lesser recall spell is a flexible version of lesser spellpower, which is awesome at higher levels and worse at level 2. At level 2, a character can say "I can have 1 extra sleep AND 1 extra color spray, or I can have 1 extra sleep OR 1 extra color spray" when they compare lesser spellpower to lesser recall. The choice is obvious then, pretty obvious at level 3-4, and then it's totally in favor of recall after that. But there's still no contest at level 2. I'm more than willing to bring up how minor spellpower fails because it's power now for power later, but that's not my original argument.

> You lost Me... wrote:There is no better option at level 2 for any spellcaster. A melee has many options, and they're all OK, but a caster will always want more spell slots when they are starved for spell slots. There is 1 competitive option at levels 3-4, and then after level 5 minor spellpower becomes cute.

Note how every point here is centred around the same thing. At level 2 this item is noticeably better. I agree that level 2 is the sweet spot for this item and it really shines, but my response to that is that level 2 characters don't have much control over the items they acquire for exactly this reason. You can't say "If you can pick any item the system is broken" when the system doesn't let you pick any item. That's the control method for the fact that at extremely low levels some items are better than others due to changing priorities and the vagaries of the math.
Now, if you want to look at some actually busted stuff at very low levels, there are a few things that have me worried. Because of a quirk of the Daily Charges system, first level wands have twice as many charges as any other spell level. Check this out:

Spell Level | Daily Charges
1st | 15
2nd | 7
3rd | 5
4th | 7
5th | 6
6th | 5
7th | 8
8th | 7

One of those numbers is not like the others, and whilst that's normally not an issue because nobody cares about crappy first level spells, at level 2 our hypothetical mage just got 15 extra daily uses of Sleep or Colour Spray. Spellpower's not looking so hot now is it?
Another thing is that the Stone Horse and Raven Figurine both have Hardness 10. At level 2 that's pretty much invulnerability to physical attacks. I foresee a level 2 party sending the Death Raven into the dungeon to peck at the enemies for 1 damage a turn whilst they futiley swat at it.
Now, all these problems go away in a level or two. First level spells have a very limited shelf life and Hardness 10 is just a good defense at level 4. But at level 2 these are potentially unbalancing for PC's to be able to pick and choose. I don't really have a problem with Orko the Magnificent finding a Wand of Sleep and ruling the roost for a level or so, or Sir Percival the Knight finding a Stone Horse and kicking ass for a while. It's when everyone can (and will) just pick those options every time that the game suffers.
Solutions I can see are to either pull magic item acquisition back a level (so you get your first item at level 3), heavily restrict low level item trading through the trading rules, or rewriting all these items so they scale somehow at very low levels. Currently I'm assuming that characters don't have the funds & mobility options to search for their perfect items until levels 4-5 when these problems have all but disappeared, so if you have any thoughts on ways to accomplish this I'd be keen to hear them.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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...You Lost Me
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Post by ...You Lost Me » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:06 pm

So in response to seeing something that can be fixed which is broken, your reaction is find other things that are broken and use those to show me how not-broken the other thing is?
Look, I play a fair amount of D&D. And a lot of that D&D is at levels 2-4, which is where some of these items are obviously broken. And because those items are broken, it means they should be fixed, not praised or ignored or compared to other broken items. I don't even want to talk about wands because it's such a terrible implementation.
The way to fix a single broken option when you have a bunch of actually good and interesting ones is not to nerf all items, but to nerf those specific options. Your solution for lesser spellpower is to not make it stupid good at level 2, and then let it scale weakly like other lesser items. So you can give a smaller spell bonus that scales up. Your solution for wands is to rewrite them because the current solution allows spellcasters to be 4x as effective as they normally are at just about every spell level except 1st and 6th.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:54 pm

> ...You Lost Me wrote:So in response to seeing something that can be fixed which is broken, your reaction is find other things that are broken and use those to show me how not-broken the other thing is?

I'm sorry if that's how it came across. I meant it more as "look at all these things that seem broken at level 2, maybe the problem is the scaling at level 2 is off rather than they're actually all broken."
Spellpower could be made to scale somewhat I guess, maybe adding +1/3 levels 1st level spell slots so it matches the stat boost. The hardness could be taken down to 5 on the two animals, that would make them considerably less awesome at the mid levels though. Part of the problem is that fixed item pricing prevents you from just upping the cost on things you don't want available at very low levels. The note at the start did say some items are up to 50% more expensive, maybe these could be noted as "6,000gp" rather than the 4,000gp normal Lesser items?
Regarding wands, although I think they've been toned down from the core version I can see that getting 5-7 additional daily uses of your highest level spell is still a large advantage, even though it uses one of the casters 8 item slots. I toyed with the idea of restricting the spell levels even further - Lesser staffs to levels 1-2, Medium to 3-4 and Greater to 5-6. This would mean casters were getting additional charges of spells a level or two below their top level, which isn't such a power boost.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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Chamomile
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Post by Chamomile » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:02 am

Question. The Golem Manual refers to the Craft Golem feat. Does this feat real?
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:09 pm

Craft Construct? I was planning to add it with the other crafting feats but I never really decided what it should look like. I mean, it's obviously a Leadership type feat but I never really liked those feats in Tome. Leadership was already the best feat and they took everything that made it broken and added other benefits on top or allowed them earlier.
The basics are that it would let you make constructs using the crafting rules and the costs laid out in the Monster Manual, but exactly what the limits should be on how many constructs you can have and how powerful they can be I haven't hammered out yet. The Book of Gears has some snippets about Constructs but nothing concrete enough to use. Constructs above CR9 or so would probably require Wish Economy goods to create, just to keep things kind of sane, but then it would really suck if they got destroyed.
I guess what I'm trying to say is it was more complicated than I thought it would be when I added that Tome
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Thu May 23, 2013 10:10 pm

why do you call it "spell power"? that sounds as if your caster level was buffed and not as if you got another spell slot. the ring of wizardry was quite an iconic dnd item, just call it that (and ring of clergy respectively). and for letting it scale: just let it give you another one additional spell slot of the highest spell level you can cast with a maximum of level 3 (because the minor/major change is between 3 and 4). then it is on the same power level as the recalling power but strategically different.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Thu May 23, 2013 11:35 pm

Spellpower was just a generic term for increased magical ability. I wanted all the abilities to have just one name, so "Wizardry/Clergy/Druidism" didn't really work. Plus there are so many preparation classes nowadays I didn't want something as tied to one class as "Wizardry". But I agree it's a bit of a shitty name.

> zugschef wrote:just let it give you another one additional spell slot of the highest spell level you can cast with a maximum of level 3 (because the minor/major change is between 3 and 4). then it is on the same power level as the recalling power but strategically different.

I like this solution - it does restrict the power at very low levels, whilst still having it stay useful. I'll edit it in shortly.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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Omegonthesane
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Post by Omegonthesane » Wed May 29, 2013 7:41 am

Under the Wish Economy description it says souls of CR <9 are not normally worth anything, however that only makes sense if you stick to the 15000gp Wish limit instead of the "Lesser magic item" one. Just off the top of my head, a 4th level Scroll is a Medium item costing a minimum of 400gp to make - which is exactly the retail price of a CR 2 soul if you assume the formula extends downwards, and as far as I know souls of any CR still can't just be Wished into existence.
I am assuming the requirement of having only one soul per item is to avoid trivially harvesting a billion CR 1 souls to make a Greater item; is there anything more to it? 'Cause if it weren't for that potential to break the game, an evil item made out of lots of enslaved souls seems entirely thematically appropriate.

> Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Thu May 30, 2013 6:21 am

> Omegonthesane wrote:I am assuming the requirement of having only one soul per item is to avoid trivially harvesting a billion CR 1 souls to make a Greater item; is there anything more to it?

It was pretty much this. I was trying to remove any easy way for low level characters to gain access to Wish Economy materials, as the concept is basically "this is the high level currency".
The scrolls thing is something of an issue, thanks for catching that. I should probably add that Souls can't be used to make consumable items and add some fluff to explain it.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
Try our fantasy card game Clash of Nations! Available via Print on Demand.
“Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities, Can Make You Commit Atrocities” - Voltaire
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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:39 pm

> Red_Rob wrote:Greater Armor Abilities:
> Absorbing - Once per day you may activate the power of the armor as an immediate action. For the next 3 rounds your armor glows bright green and anything that touches it (except you and magic items attuned to you) is affected as if by a disintegrate spell with a caster level equal to your character level. This includes any weapons that hit your touch AC, any creatures making natural weapon attacks that hit your touch AC and creatures you are grappling. You may also make a melee Touch attack to affect specific creatures with this effect.
> Blades - This armor is considered to have been made with Armor spikes at no extra cost. As a swift action you can command the spikes to protect you. For the next 10 rounds you are surrounded by the effect of a Blade Barrier spell with a caster level equal to your character level which fills all squares adjacent to you and moves when you move.
> Heavy Fortification - Any critical hit or sneak attack made against you is instead reduced to a normal attack.
> Invulnerability - Once per day as a standard action you may become Invulnerable. For the next 3 rounds any attacks against your AC or spells which allows spell resistance cast against you automatically fail to affect you and you become immune to all physical and energy damage.
> Etherealness - As a standard action you may become Ethereal as per the spell Ethereal Jaunt. This effect lasts until you choose to end it, however once deactivated it cannot be reactivated for 1 hour.
> Freedom - You are under a continual Freedom of Movement effect.
> Planar Travel - Once per day you may open a travel Gate as per the spell with a caster level equal to your character level, and you are always under the effect of an Attune form spell keyed to your current plane.
> Spell Reflection - You gain spell resistance equal to 10+character level. As an Immediate action you may cause a spell targeted at you which has failed to overcome your spell resistance to be reflected at the caster as if affected by a Spell Turning spell.

Most of these suck. Hard. Srzly. Absorbing is especially dreadful: It has the potential to destroy loot and does absolutely nothing against enemies with ranged attacks (including spells), and all this only once(!) per day (Invulnerability suffers this problem and thus sucks, too). Are you supposed to wear it for the first fight of the day and then put on another suit of armor?
Heavy Fortification is somewhat underwhelming as a greater ability, too. It's an immunity for 14th+ level characters which ninth level druids and wizards already have. I'd get rid of Medium Fortification and make Heavy Fortification a medium armor ability, as I would do with Etherealness. It's essentially an ability a ninth level cleric can replicate. That just doesn't cut it as the strongest magic item power for a 14th+ level character. Also, does such a high level character really wear an armor with the Planar Travel ability? All it does is replicate a third level and a slightly better version of a fifth level cleric spell.
This list desperately needs some heavy upgrading.
[edit] Example: Cloud Armor - You can treat air as solid ground as per the air walk spell, additionally, this piece of armor lets you vaporize and travel as fast as the wind as per the wind walk spell. You also gain the ability to engulf yourself in fog granting you concealment (20% miss chance) and create fog at-will (this ability duplicates the fog cloud spell). The armor's power also gives you the ability to call lightning as per the call lightning storm spell and control weather as per the spell to create rain, fog or a thunderstorm. Finally, it makes you immune to lightning.
Fire Armor - This armor protects you with a permanent warm fire shield and because of the flames and heat it emanates, you are granted concealment resulting in a 20% miss chance. Additionally, all of your weapons and/or natural attacks gain the flaming property. Once per round you can cause a powerful explosion as per the greater fireburst spell. Finally, you are immune to fire.
Stone Armor - This armor protects you with a permanent stoneskin effect and grants you the abilities to meld into stone and stone shape at-will. Also, at any time you can turn into solid stone as per the statue spell. While transmute rock to mud slows you as the spell, transmute mud to rock restores all of your lost hit points. Finally, you are immune to critical hits and precision damage.
Last edited by zugschef on Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:31 am

> zugschef wrote:Most of these suck. Hard. Srzly.

Okay, then. Let's take a look.

> Absorbing is especially dreadful: It has the potential to destroy loot and does absolutely nothing against enemies with ranged attacks (including spells), and all this only once(!) per day (Invulnerability suffers this problem and thus sucks, too). Are you supposed to wear it for the first fight of the day and then put on another suit of armor?

Fair points. The recharge on these should probably be changed to 10 mins, to make them more of a "once per fight" thing. Absorbing I don't have a problem with - it's pretty boss for grapple focussed characters. I should probably stipulate it works against physical projectiles though.

> Heavy Fortification is somewhat underwhelming as a greater ability, too. It's an immunity for 14th+ level characters which ninth level druids and wizards already have. I'd get rid of Medium Fortification and make Heavy Fortification a medium armor ability

I don't agree that "all 9th level Druids and Wizards" have four specific 5th level spells running all the time. Firstly because, y'know, they don't have that many spell slots. Secondly I think you are glossing over the opportunity cost of a caster devoting their high level spells to an effect. Whilst a caster could choose to burn all their best slots to replicate this specific item, spells are often their only real class feature. If they devote them to niche defensive abilities they have nothing left to actually do anything with. Complete invulnerability to Critical Hits bones Rogues too hard to be a Medium item IMHO. At high levels it would almost totally invalidate a Rogue's abililty to do damage.

> as I would do with Etherealness. It's essentially an ability a ninth level cleric can replicate. That just doesn't cut it as the strongest magic item power for a 14th+ level character.

Surgo previously suggested cutting the recharge on this to 10 minutes, which would probably be fine. It would make it more of a special ability you could rely on than a resource to be hoarded. I think you are underselling the defensive applications of the ability to become Ethereal at any time - for a Cleric to have this ability they have to reserve one of their 5th level spell slots, and they can't do it while grappled. Being able to drop through the floor or dive through a wall if things look like going south seems like a high level ability to me.

> Also, does such a high level character really wear an armor with the Planar Travel ability? All it does is replicate a third level and a slightly better version of a fifth level cleric spell.

I think you need to read the Gate spell again. Aside from the abililty to go exactly where you want rather than 5-500 miles(!) away, a Travel Gate is a physical opening to another plane that things can travel through, or be pushed through. The possible offensive uses of a fully placeable portal to the Negative Energy plane I will leave as an exercise for the reader.
I think that justifies it as a Greater item. I will say that the recharge should be dropped to 1/hour in line with the Dimensional Manipulation wondrous item.
All in all I think having an ability always available without restricting your other options is a sizeable benefit compared to having to devote spell slots to it. Every spell a Wizard memorises has an opportunity cost, so in practice they rarely have the niche utility spells at the exact time they need them. These abilities are already leagues ahead of the Greater items in the DMG, and I'd be wary of boosting them further without some more solid playtesting.
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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:09 pm

First off, I've never heard of anybody who played a grapple focused character at levels 14+, and again, Absorption sucks for the same reason Disjunction sucks. Etherealness is lame because it is activated with a standard action. That said, make these items useable as an immediate action, once every 20 rounds (same time combat buffs last), because it's a fuckin' headache to track per X minutes or hours uses and won't break the game, and I'm on board.
As for Fortification, I've never said that every 9th level druid/wizard is running around with Heart of X up, but she very well could. At levels 14+ it's kind of a given since Heart of Fire is two (or more) spell levels below her highest spell level after all. It's boring as fuck, too, which is the same reason why the Freedom ability is lame. Greater magic armor should provide more than a simple immunity. Armor of Freedom, for instance, could additionally be under a permanent Magic Circle against Law effect and give you the ability to cast Freedom once per day.
Planar Travel armor shouldn't be an armor at all. Pushing dudes through a Gate? Unless your MC is a fan of the rule of cool, you won't be doing that very often, as in almost never. Huge+ monsters and enemies with ranged attacks laugh at you from their mountains if you try that tactic. They very well might throw you through this Gate, and let's not forget that at level 14 and above the real threats can plane shift, themselves. If you can push someone around at these levels, you don't need an effect like Gate to own them; you already do. In practice this is an armor a party will carry around and don when the need arises. Pure utility.
Last edited by zugschef on Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:39 pm

> zugschef wrote:First off, I've never heard of anybody who played a grapple focused character at levels 14+, and again, Absorption sucks for the same reason Disjunction sucks. Etherealness is lame because it is activated with a standard action. That said, make these items useable as an immediate action, once every 20 rounds (same time combat buffs last), because it's a fuckin' headache to track per X minutes or hours uses and won't break the game, and I'm on board.

Absorbing was already an Immediate action, and against enemies with magic weapons you can just not use it. Immediate action Etherealness seems kind of gamebreaking to me. It is just a get out of jail free card against a whole bunch of things. I mean, the srd states "Ethereal creatures are invisible, inaudible, insubstantial, and scentless to creatures on the Material Plane. Even most magical attacks have no effect on them". Pretty much only Force effects can harm you. Isn't that a little much? Standard Action Etherealness seems plenty good, given you can turn Ethereal and move 30' in the first round of any fight you don't think you can win, or to reposition and gank the casters.

> zugschef wrote:As for Fortification, I've never said that every 9th level druid/wizard is running around with Heart of X up, but she very well could. At levels 14+ it's kind of a given since Heart of Fire is two (or more) spell levels below her highest spell level after all.

My point was that Heart of Fire doesn't provide any resistance to Critical Hits. Only having all 4 Heart of X spells going at the same time provides immunity, which is a pretty big chunk of spell slots at any level.

> It's boring as fuck, too, which is the same reason why the Freedom ability is lame. Greater magic armor should provide more than a simple immunity.

I think providing a blanket immunity is fine for a Greater Armor. Magic Armor should really be defensive in nature, so immunity is a natural fit, and I really prefer a nice clean effect to heaping minor bonuses on top. That's why I posted my Simplified Armors, getting a +2 vs bullrushes or +2AC vs. Chaotic creatures in addition to your major effect just ends up with a confusing pile of things to remember. Your Armor is only one of your 8 magic tems, plus all your class features, plus all your feat abilities. By the time you are getting Greater items I think you'd be glad of a nice simple ability!

> Planar Travel armor shouldn't be an armor at all. Pushing dudes through a Gate? Unless your MC is a fan of the rule of cool, you won't be doing that very often, as in almost never. Huge+ monsters and enemies with ranged attacks laugh at you from their mountains if you try that tactic.

I dunno. Look at the Gate rules text:

> srd wrote:The gate itself is a circular hoop or disk from 5 to 20 feet in diameter (caster’s choice), oriented in the direction you desire when it comes into existence (typically vertical and facing you). It is a two-dimensional window looking into the plane you specified when casting the spell, and anyone or anything that moves through is shunted instantly to the other side.
> Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
> Saving Throw: None

Why can't you cast a 20' Diameter Gate below the feet of a Huge monster? Or below a caster 150' away? I can't see anything that would prohibit this in the spell description. Alternatively, the ability to have the party escape to any dimension on a whim seems useful. Maybe Planar Travel armor is a little niche, but in the hands of a creative player I feel it could be quite powerful enough to warrant Greater Item status.
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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:12 pm

> Red_Rob wrote:Immediate action Etherealness seems kind of gamebreaking to me.

It's only for one round, but still... I've never heard anyone argue that this maneuver is gamebreaking. The reason why going ethereal isn't all that great is the same reason why it's an awesome defense: You have a hard time attacking your enemies from the etherial plane. But as a compromise you could rule as follows: "This greater armor ability gives you two options. You can either go ethereal as per the spell with a standard action or you can enter the ethereal plane for one round as an immediate action. In both cases the ability can't be used again for the next 20 rounds after activation."

> My point was that Heart of Fire doesn't provide any resistance to Critical Hits. Only having all 4 Heart of X spells going at the same time provides immunity, which is a pretty big chunk of spell slots at any level.

These spells happen to be rather good on their own without the combined effect. You'd be stupid not to cast these spells if you have them: FoM and Stoneskin (no material cost) whenever you need them? Sign me up.

> [Freedom & Heavy Fortification]

So you're ok with it being boring as fuck. That's not bad per se, but I thought the idea behind all this was to make magic items more interesting and less generic, especially the greater ones. Also your premise is that a single greater item makes you a fantasy villain ("Even a single Greater magic item should put you into the same league as most fantasy film villains."). An armor of fortification certainly doesn't do that.

> [Planar Travel]

Wow. So you're putting a 20' Gate below a wizard. Or a Nalfeshnee. Yawn. Jokes aside, if a gate below your feet effectively takes you out of a fight, you're not to be taken seriously at these levels. Besides, I've never denied that it's useful, but it still sucks as an armor ability because it's a tool. Also, you're contradicting yourself: First you said that greater armor abilities should be defensive in nature ("Magic Armor should really be defensive in nature, so immunity is a natural fit [...]") and then you defend an ability like this which is either an offensive ability or utility.
Last edited by zugschef on Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:03 pm

> zugschef wrote:

> > Red_Rob wrote:Immediate action Etherealness seems kind of gamebreaking to me.

> It's only for one round, but still... I've never heard anyone argue that this maneuver is gamebreaking.

Incorporeal &#8800; Ethereal. Incorporeal gives you a 50% chance to avoid any spell or magical weapon, whereas Ethereal gives you 100%. Also, Incorporeal not allowing you to travel all the way through solid objects prevents a lot of escape attempts, whereas Ethereal doesn't have that restriction.

> > My point was that Heart of Fire doesn't provide any resistance to Critical Hits. Only having all 4 Heart of X spells going at the same time provides immunity, which is a pretty big chunk of spell slots at any level.

> These spells happen to be rather good on their own without the combined effect. You'd be stupid not to cast these spells if you have them.

Opportunity Cost. Look it up. You wouldn't be stupid not to cast these spells if casting them meant you didn't get to do other, more awesome things with those spell slots. Given the vast majority of a casters power and versatility comes from their spells, devoting them to a niche defense is not always going to be the best option, whereas getting armor that does the same thing is something you can't change every day, so the opportunity cost is less.

> So you're ok with it being boring as fuck.

It's armor. It doesn't have to be flashy, although of course if you wanted to make armors that were more complex you'd be welcome to. Although Tome armor rules already added abilities to every armor so you are getting two powers out of your magic armor anyway.

> Jokes aside, if a gate below your feet effectively takes you out of a fight, you're not to be taken seriously at these levels.

I'd dispute whether every enemy at level 14+ can actually Planeshift, but that is besides the point. The main feature of the armor is the ability to instantly transport the party to anywhere on any plane on a whim, and then to protect the wearer when you get there. I think that sounds pretty powerful if you know your way around the planes. The offensive possibilities are just something extra that you can pull out of the bag if you use the ability creatively.
I guess if you really think Planar armor doesn't offer enough incentive to wear all the time, I could add "You cannot be transported to another plane against your will whilst wearing this armor". That would be pretty simple and flavourful and would mean wearing it gave you something when not Gating.
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zugschef
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Post by zugschef » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:13 pm

> Red_Rob wrote:

> > zugschef wrote:

> > > Red_Rob wrote:Immediate action Etherealness seems kind of gamebreaking to me.

> > It's only for one round, but still... I've never heard anyone argue that this maneuver is gamebreaking.

> Incorporeal &#8800; Ethereal. Incorporeal gives you a 50% chance to avoid any spell or magical weapon, whereas Ethereal gives you 100%. Also, Incorporeal not allowing you to travel all the way through solid objects prevents a lot of escape attempts, whereas Ethereal doesn't have that restriction.

You're correct, my bad. But the point that you can't do anything either from the ethereal plane still stands. The main application of this ability is utility, because if you use it in a fight what you're actually doing is turtling. Btw, in some ways plane shift is actually better than ethereal jaunt because it's instantaneous and works with the whole party. Then as soon as you are on the ethereal plane (5-500 miles from your last position) you can use teleport to get back to exactly where you were with a 97% chance. If you don't want to change it to an interrupt, at least give it the ability to use it on other creatures. The villain comes in unnoticed via the ethereal plane, grabs the princess who fails her will save against the armor's ability and escapes with her, again via the ethereal plane.

> > > My point was that Heart of Fire doesn't provide any resistance to Critical Hits. Only having all 4 Heart of X spells going at the same time provides immunity, which is a pretty big chunk of spell slots at any level.

> > These spells happen to be rather good on their own without the combined effect. You'd be stupid not to cast these spells if you have them.

> Opportunity Cost. Look it up. You wouldn't be stupid not to cast these spells if casting them meant you didn't get to do other, more awesome things with those spell slots. Given the vast majority of a casters power and versatility comes from their spells, devoting them to a niche defense is not always going to be the best option, whereas getting armor that does the same thing is something you can't change every day, so the opportunity cost is less.

Fire Shield, Freedom of Movement and Stoneskin (without the material component) as interrupts aren't niche defenses and that's not even taking their basic benefits into account. As for Heart of Air, a 14+ level character can afford to waste a 2nd level slot on a +10 ft. enhancement bonus to his fly speed.
Well, all in all it's probably got a lot to do with personal taste. *shrug*
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:34 pm

I completely reject the removal of minor items as a thing that should happen. As a DM it provides me with a way to increase the stats of the humanoid enemies without having to worry about 101 lesser item effects that could potentially be important unless I keep them in mind.
Also, why are the rules for nonstandard magic item forms so prohibitative? In the original tomes it was just a +2 CL increase to craft these items and should just stay that way. Otherwise it screws over people who want all their 8 items to be rings and monster characters who do not have a humanoid shape.
Lastly, just something I want to double check. The enchanting time given in those crafting feats are completely unrelated to actual skill checks and base work periods given earlier, correct?
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:47 am

> Dominicius wrote:I completely reject the removal of minor items as a thing that should happen. As a DM it provides me with a way to increase the stats of the humanoid enemies without having to worry about 101 lesser item effects that could potentially be important unless I keep them in mind.

If you want to include Minor items then they slot in without a problem. I found they suffered from the crime of being uninteresting, so I took them out, and if I wanted enemies to have slightly higher stats I just gave them higher stats. If anything removing minor items and just bumping enemy stats a few points takes away things to worry about - you don't have to recalculate everything when someone casts a Dispel, and the players don't have to sift through junk items to get something they might want to use.

> Also, why are the rules for nonstandard magic item forms so prohibitative? In the original tomes it was just a +2 CL increase to craft these items and should just stay that way. Otherwise it screws over people who want all their 8 items to be rings and monster characters who do not have a humanoid shape.

Basically because Wish. Wish allows you to create any minor item, so if you can have your item in any form, why not always have rings? Rings have an advantage over almost every other item type - they don't take a hand to use, you can easily wear 8, they are unobtrusive and are hard to steal, they fit in your pocket and you can easily swap between them. So the default becomes every item is a ring and there are no more magic hats, or bracers, or boots, or pendants. Welcome to Ringworld. I didn't want that, so I made totally nonstandard items at least Medium to solve the problem.

> Lastly, just something I want to double check. The enchanting time given in those crafting feats are completely unrelated to actual skill checks and base work periods given earlier, correct?

Yes. The reason being that creating magic items is much more directly tied to character power than making other shit, so I was more careful to regulate it. Also it can cost Wish Economy goods which are in very limited supply, so I didn't want you able to ruin them with a bad roll. As long as you have the goods and the time, you get your item.
If you want to create an item as you enchant it you make the crafting roll for the basic item and then check the enchanting time, and use the longer of the two for both processes simultaneously.
Simplified Tome Armor.
Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:51 pm

> f you want to include Minor items then they slot in without a problem. I found they suffered from the crime of being uninteresting, so I took them out, and if I wanted enemies to have slightly higher stats I just gave them higher stats. If anything removing minor items and just bumping enemy stats a few points takes away things to worry about - you don't have to recalculate everything when someone casts a Dispel, and the players don't have to sift through junk items to get something they might want to use.

It gets old when players start passing knowledge checks and see mooks with bigger numbers than they realistically should have. Besides, it does better represent various enemy tiers like like a band of orc thugs armed with clubs and a guild of assassins who all run around with enchanted daggers and boots of + stealth.
And I do agree that minor items are not interesting otherwise. If anything, my preferred solution would be making minor items a thing that you can mass produce so that you can equip a band of your henchmen without wasting much of your own time. Basically the cost stays the same but the crafting time is much faster than for lesser items (also coming online sooner).

> Basically because Wish. Wish allows you to create any minor item, so if you can have your item in any form, why not always have rings? Rings have an advantage over almost every other item type - they don't take a hand to use, you can easily wear 8, they are unobtrusive and are hard to steal, they fit in your pocket and you can easily swap between them. So the default becomes every item is a ring and there are no more magic hats, or bracers, or boots, or pendants.

I think you are overlooking the fact that most players do not play characters who have the aesthetic that permits them to wear 8 rings. In fact, the only time I made a character that ran around with 8 rings was when I was allowed to use Koumei's Reaping Mauler remake. It should be pretty obvious why.
But more in the realm of mechanics, a CL limitation of 2 already makes non-standard items more rare in the world, making them harder to find. You did say that the system is meant to be random with wish and crafting being the only reliable way of getting exactly what you want. Considering that the actual number of characters being able to use wish is not all that big and the fact that you can only wish for lesser items when you only care about moderate ones I do not think that non-standard lesser items would be that common in the world that you can get it in any item shop.
Which actually brings up another issue. How do people trade or commission items under these rules? Considering that you can only make a limited number of lesser items before you get to use wish at which point you no longer care about lesser magic items and even selling those items is pointless because the people who would even want them can give you nothing in return.
Here is what I like to think, and this is purely my own additions to better flesh out the setting that it governed by these rules.
I would say that the only people who would have an abundance of lesser magic items are organizations benefiting from the benediction of someone powerful. The aforementioned assassins guild for instance could have a powerful rogue behind it or the city guard is led by a high level paladin. Under such conditions lesser magic items would still be heavily regulated as such organizations would likely mark their equipment so you can't simply use it unless you are part of that organization. Of course wars and raids still happen, and people do die and stuff does get lost so independent traders still get some of the lesser magic junk in their shops from time to time.
Moderate items would fill two roles in trading, barter for other moderate stuff you want and barter for planar currency so you can make moderate or greater stuff that you want. Greater magic items would obviously never be traded directly under these rules.
Other than that here are a few other things I want to see:
* Positive Energy gems can be dissolved to give +1 inherent bonus to charisma and relieves fatigue/exhaustion by one step for living creatures. Dealing 3d6 positive energy damage to undead.
* Negative Energy gems can be dissolved to give +1 inherent bonus to intelligence and causes exhaustion when drank by a living creature. Undead are healed 3d6 negative energy.
* A table of wish economy goods cost for easy referencing.
* A set of rules that can give a rough estimate how difficult it is to trade for an item taking into account the population density of a region, the rarity of the item and how specific the search query is (perhaps modified by the PC stats). Considering that you want to encourage randomness, I'd assume that finding exactly what you want in a magic shop should not be something that happens often.
* A table for dolling out magic items at specific levels, a WBL for magic items if you will, for easy referencing. And maybe a table for those of us that want to keep minor items in the game. Also how much gold/wish economy stuff the players should have at those levels, taking into account the number of items dolled out.
I made a few calculations and at level 8 the player has 7 lesser items which is 28,000 gp, 1,000 gp higher than the current WBL. But at level 14 the player has 4 moderate items and one greater item, which is 94,000 gp. 56,000 gp fewer than the standard WBL at this level. Unless I'm confused by how the system is supposed to work.
* A feat for crafting magical tattoos. Preferably one that can be used with psionics if you are using those.
Last edited by Dominicius on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:06 pm

I'm pretty sure you don't mean an inheritance bonus.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

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