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## 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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RandomCasualty
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by RandomCasualty » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:05 pm

You're assuming a well educated world, which by default, D&D isn't. Average peasants don't really know much about the world, they probably haven't taken on even so much as a real orc themselves. What they hear are from bard's tales and stories which are probably deeply drowned in exaggeration and other myths. For every real counter you know, you may pick up various folk myths, like garlic warding off trolls.
Remember a lot of this crap you're learning probably isn't accurate. Unless you were directly schooled from a high level adventurer, getting all your training from a 2nd level swordsman isn't going to advance you very far knowledge wise.
As for high level stuff like beholders, you can almost guarantee that stuff is going to be really exaggerated.
To expect that the character is going to know the exact stat block of a creature is pretty ridiculous. It's like saying you know the maximum average running speed of a giraffe as well as the average weight it can carry and it's approximate resistance to damage. We all know giraffes exist, but we don't know much about them, unless you happen to watch a lot of documentaries on that sort of thing. Unfortunately though, D&D characters don't have documentaries to fall back on, and with all probability, nobody has actually done a study on how much the average troll can lift.
The problem with D&D is that everything is so relative, whcih means overall descriptions don't work. A troll is an unstoppable monster for a 1st level warrior, but a minor speedbump for an 8th level character.
Sure, you know stuff about the world, but you aren't getting that stuff from any reasonably accurate source. If there's one thing I learned from living on this planet, it's that there are a lot of bullshitters out there. Some people will tell you crap cause they don't know anybetter, and people will actually believe it. And in D&D, unlike on Earth, you can't just look something up at your local library or internet to check the accuracy of what the town BSer tells you. So you may perfectly go in there with your cold iron longsword and garlic necklace thinking it'll make you the ultimate trollslayer.
The uneducated make up a hell of a lot of myths and falsehoods.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:22 pm

> RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1087412729[/unixtime]]You're assuming a well educated world, which by default, D&D isn't. Average peasants don't really know much about the world, they probably haven't taken on even so much as a real orc themselves. What they hear are from bard's tales and stories which are probably deeply drowned in exaggeration and other myths. For every real counter you know, you may pick up various folk myths, like garlic warding off trolls.

You're forgetting that this is a world where unless you grew up a Mongol or a Viking, you automatically have been taught how to read and write any language you know how to speak.
And when the orcs stormed the village, killing about a third of the populace, buring half the homes to the ground, stealing anything that wasn't nailed down(and some things that were), and having their way with your women, you'd remember that. And bear in mind, there are at least half a dozen races that do this regularly.
All of this still ignoring the fact that if adventurers are even widespread enough to be 5% of the population (That's one out of every twenty people who has the special ingrown ability to pick up a sword and within a year or three be able to totally wail on anyone he needs to), they'd have their own subculture. These people love to congregate and tell stories. I don't care what level you are, you've probably heard the store Groggin Rumflagon tell the story about how he shoved a burning flask of lamp oil up a Troll's ass literally while his buddy Raven burned his face off with the acid from his Box Kit, and you've probably heard it several times.
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rapanui
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by rapanui » Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:53 am

Maybe it's just me experiencing severe rejection of many things implied by the rules, but I'm still with RC here. If what you guys say is right (and I have no reason to doubt it is) then I don't know if the Core Campaign really appeals to me (actually, I know that D&D as written DOESN'T appeal to me). I don't want peasants knowing the stat block of a beholder, and I don't want a 3rd level Cleric telling me how many 7th level spells a Red Great Wyrm can cast per day.
I like Josh's number 2 solution to the dillema enough to be satisfied with it as a solution to metagame problem. DM uses creativity, surprises the PCs, fun for all.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Desdan_Mervolam » Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:15 am

That's not what we're saying, Rapa. There's a difference between knowing notable weaknesses and strenghts of common enemies and knowing entire stat-blocks of creatures. The third level cleric likely doesn't know how many spells the Great Red Worm has exactly, but he knows that dragons can cast spells naturally, that said spellcasting gets more potent with age, and he knows that Reds breathe fire, as opposed to blacks who breathe acid, and whites who breathe blizzards. This not because he lives in a world those things exist in, per se. This is because, as an adventurer, he has access to a wellspring of monsterous information (Actually, he has two. Not just other adventurers, the priest also has access to church documents that chronicle past encounters), and a pretty good incentive to know his enemy in case he will ever encounter such a monster.
The higher you go in the adventuring hierarchy, the more you can be expected to know. 1st level commoners (Farmers children and so forth), know a little about orcs, goblins, bugbears, and assorted monsters, because chances are very good he has encountered them or known someone who has personally encountered them. He won't be able to tell you what a beholder's eye rays do, aside from possibly hearing that they were immune to magic . On the other time, The high level adventurer-turned-king probably has fought a beholder himself, and can probably tell you that not only did the caster's spells fizzle in front of the beholder, but that the damned thing turned one of his companions to stone and turned another against the party before they managed to kill the thing.
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rapanui
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by rapanui » Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:48 am

I have no problem with high-level adventurers knowing the main abilities of creatures, in fact, it's logical.
I DO have a big problem with peasants knowing about beholder anti-magic (which Frank said is the case in FR) or the players knowing information about a monster I just invented (both outisde the game and within the game world). Frank explicitly said he would not have a problem with either.
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Username17
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Username17 » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:16 am

> rapanui at [unixtime wrote:1087530487[/unixtime]]I have no problem with high-level adventurers knowing the main abilities of creatures, in fact, it's logical.
> I DO have a big problem with peasants knowing about beholder anti-magic (which Frank said is the case in FR) or the players knowing information about a monster I just invented (both outisde the game and within the game world). Frank explicitly said he would not have a problem with either.

But being "high level" is something that happens to you in only a couple of years on the outside. An Elven Magician has been sitting on his hands researching for hundreds of years before those couple of years in which he became high level.
If it's logical for a 15th level Wizard to know about a Beholder's Antimagic Eye, then it's basically just as logical for a 1st or 0-level character to know that information, because short of a year and a half he spent with the camera following him getting powerups he's exactly the same person.
That information has to accumulate in you eventually, and there's no special reason to believe it happens in the 18 months you spend gaining levels rather than the one hundred and seventy years you spend not gaining levels.
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User3
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by User3 » Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:26 am

Perhaps the silly part then is how quickly a character goes from being a no-one to having access to world-shattering power.
At any rate, at some point here something just doesn't click with me.
But it's just me, so on my part this discussion has pretty much reached an impassé.
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fbmf
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by fbmf » Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:15 pm

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Wealth By Level discussion moved to a new thread.
[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Game On,
fbmf
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Brobdingnagian
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Brobdingnagian » Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:23 pm

Heh. I know a couple things my DM likes to do to keep us on our toes.
"Okay, you see another troglodyte. This one's bigger, though, about the size of an ogre. It's got this big-ass scimitar."
At the time, I was playing the party ranger/archer.
"Okay guys, it's just another trog, albeit a bigger one. I'll put some arrows in it and we can keep going. I shoot the big trog... 26 on my first attack, 28 on my second, and 19 on my third."
"Your arrows bounce off the air around it. It knows you're there. Make a Will save."
"Umm... 11?"
"You are now dreadfully afraid of large troglodytes. You run."
"Dammit."
Turns out it was a Yuan-Ti Abomination (with a Prot. From Arrows Ring), but because he described it as a bigger troglodyte, I had no idea what to expect and ended up getting boned. It was fun, though, because until that point, we were just walking over everything.
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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:43 pm

Ah yes, I remember that very well.
That's actually a trick that many DM's need to learn how to do.
Use monster stats and describe them as 'different' monsters of a race that they know.
So, 'mind-bending orcs' that prevent you from hitting them properly (displacer beasts); 'climbing trolls' (chokers) or ... 'raging gnolls' (minotaurs; no, I'm kidding, that raging gnoll barb that I used so long ago was a straight gnoll barb).
Of course, the uncreative DM will have monsters that appear with no rhyme or reason.
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User3
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by User3 » Wed May 02, 2007 4:30 pm

The thing is, how much fun is it to pretend you do not know a troll's weaknesses for the umpteenth time?
Personally, I just let my player's metagame as much as they like, at least in regards to monsters and combat situations. Of course, I rarely use monsters 'straight out the box', so in many cases it's a rather moot point, since metagaming might as well harm as benefit them. In a story-sense this kind of metagaming basically functions like hear-say and myths (as opposed to certain knowledge, represented by the appropriate skill), in that it may be accurate or it may not.
I just wouldn't find it all that interesting to feign ignorance in a combat situation myself and knowingly take suboptimal actions (using fire dmg on something immune to it etc), so I don't force my players to do that either.
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User3
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by User3 » Wed May 02, 2007 9:48 pm

Okay, I think there's room for disagreement about how likely a random lowbie adventurer is to know all about weird monsters like cloakers and chuul. But the level of ignorance some of you have been suggesting is absurd.
How can you suggest that your typical commoner wouldn't have seen an orc? Orcs are people. Nasty, brutish people, but people nontheless. there are a whole lot of them. Some of them probably even come to town to try to trade once and a while. If not, some of them try to burn down the town once in a while. They know orcs.
In fact, there's a whole bunch of low-level monsters that hang out near settlements that your commoner should recognize.
On the other end, your typical commoner has undoubtedly heard legends, and knows the ten flavors of dragons and their associated breath weapons.
Trolls fall somehwere in between. They're not impressive enough to have real legends about them, and they're dangerous enough that your typical commoner wonh't survive encountering one. However, he probably knows someone who has, or has a friend of a friend who can tell a story about it, and the fact that trolls are only killed by fire and acid is almsot certainly common knowledge, since it's so distinctive and memorable.
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MrWaeseL
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by MrWaeseL » Wed May 02, 2007 9:52 pm

At 5 encounters per day and 40/3 encounters per level, it takes an adventurer just over a month to get to level 12.
In other words, encountering monsters like trolls and even beholders isn't something for really old seasoned adventurers, but even for joe schmoe who decided to go adventuring at last month's new year's office party. And of course he'll brag about killing a troll at the office water cooler.
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Brobdingnagian
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Brobdingnagian » Thu May 03, 2007 5:11 am

He couldn't have killed a troll at the office water cooler. Open fires and volatile substances (acid) are against the building code and company policy.
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the_taken
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by the_taken » Thu May 03, 2007 5:15 am

"So... you here about that Taken fellow. Boy, he must really be something. Taking on a troll with a spoon like that."
*garbs the water cooler and takes off*
"I am sick and tired of hearing about that Taken fellow!"
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shau
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by shau » Thu May 03, 2007 9:00 am

> Brobdingnagian wrote: He couldn't have killed a troll at the office water cooler. Open fires and volatile substances (acid) are against the building code and company policy.

You don't burn them there. You hold their head in that water jug thing until they drown.
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Brobdingnagian
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Brobdingnagian » Thu May 03, 2007 9:52 pm

But the opening isn't big enough.
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virgil
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by virgil » Thu May 03, 2007 10:22 pm

That's why you cut off their head and stick the open throat into the water jug, duh
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User3
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by User3 » Thu May 03, 2007 11:00 pm

Perhaps, to blend Frank's agenda with K's, a "Boss Monster" template is in order? That would certainly be easier than rewriting all monsters...
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Brobdingnagian
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Brobdingnagian » Fri May 04, 2007 3:48 am

Hmm... what to do with such a template...
"Leader Monster"
Sure, you could have Legendary Monsters or Draconic Creatures or Evolved Undead or other things be leaders among their kind, but really, there should be a monster among all groups that could be in charge. This template makes that monster.
Size and Type: Monster gains the (awesome) subtype. Do not recalculate hit points, saves, or CR.
Movement: If the base creature can not fly or burrow, it gains a fly speed equal to its landspeed (good manoeuverability). If it can already fly, its manoeuverability is increased one step. If it already has perfect manoeuverability, it instead gains 20 ft to its fly speed. If the creature has a burrow speed, it gains 30 ft to its burrow speed.
Ability Scores: A Leader Monster gains +6 to its Intelligence score. A non-intelligent creature gains an Intelligence score of 6.
Special Qualities:
Command (Su): A Leader Monster can command other creatures of its race as per Dominate Monster. If the creature has an Intelligence score of 2 or lower (or is non-intelligent), no save is allowed. This command lasts as long as the Leader Monster wishes; however, if the creature has an Intelligence score of 3 or higher, it is allowed another save every minute. If the Leader Monster is killed, all commanded creatures are released.
Bring Up (Su): A Leader Monster whose base race has no fly speed or burrow speed can grant other creatures of its race the ability to fly as per its own flying with average manoeuverability.
Special Attacks:
Bring Down (Su): A Leader Monster whose bace race has a burrow speed can stop other creatures from being able to fly. I don't know how the mechanics of this would work. Somebody else do it.
There's a rough draft.
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Judging__Eagle
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Judging__Eagle » Fri May 04, 2007 7:47 pm

Dude, you just made the Peter Pan template.
You could make 'leader' humans that make their buddies fly.
You should change the ability modifiers though:
+2 Cha; since they're more 'impressive'
Intelligence set to 6 if they have 2, less or no intelligence.
+2-3 CR?
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Brobdingnagian
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Brobdingnagian » Fri May 04, 2007 9:58 pm

Actually, I was more going for an Intelligence of at least 8. 6 would be for the normally mindless creatures, and 7 for the few really dumb animals.
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MrWaeseL
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by MrWaeseL » Thu May 10, 2007 5:51 pm

> virgileso at [unixtime wrote:1178230979[/unixtime]]That's why you cut off their head and stick the open throat into the water jug, duh

> Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1178229146[/unixtime]]But the opening isn't big enough.

> shau wrote:You don't burn them there. You hold their head in that water jug thing until they drown.

> the_taken at [unixtime wrote:1178169326[/unixtime]]"So... you here about that Taken fellow. Boy, he must really be something. Taking on a troll with a spoon like that."
> *garbs the water cooler and takes off*
> "I am sick and tired of hearing about that Taken fellow!"

> Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1178169073[/unixtime]]He couldn't have killed a troll at the office water cooler. Open fires and volatile substances (acid) are against the building code and company policy.

I hope all you guys get killed
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User3
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by User3 » Thu May 10, 2007 9:31 pm

...at the office water cooler?
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Brobdingnagian
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### Re: 10 rules to surgically remove the glass jaw

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Post by Brobdingnagian » Fri May 11, 2007 1:27 am

So yeah, any ideas for that Leader Monster template?
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