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Maj
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### Marijuana

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Post by Maj » Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:44 am

So Ess writes articles for a news website and I've been trying to get him to do an article on the economic benefit of legalizing marijuana... Only I know fuck all about the issue.
But I know that people here have posted about it before, so I'm wondering if I can get a little help in finding really good stats. Stuff like the relief of the burden on the penal system, the cost of being "at war" with it, health/addiction issues...
And I guess in that vein, I'm also opening the floor to whether or not you guys think that it would be a good way to help the horribly limping economy if marijuana were legalized.
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Cynic
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Post by Cynic » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:29 am

what website does Essence work for?

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Mon Oct 25, 2010 6:37 am

This article popped up on my news feed. Might help.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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violence in the media
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Post by violence in the media » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:05 pm

NPR had some discussion this morning about Prop 19 on the California ballot. Apparently, there are some anti-corporate stoners that oppose the initiative, while the supporters include responsible use soccer moms and economic incentive law enforcement types.
This all combines in the conclusion that nobody knows which way it's going to go, because nobody can really tell who is going to vote for or against it.
Some of the links in the article might be useful to you.
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mean_liar
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Post by mean_liar » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:15 pm

Official US policy and information on marijuana and prison populations:
http://www.ncjrs.gov/ondcppubs/publicat ... _marij.pdf
"Offenses involving marijuana: 2.7% of all state inmates
Prisoners held for marijuana only: 1.6% of all state inmates"
So there's 1.1% of the court docket that's marijuana but riding along with other offenses, and 1.6% of the total court and prison costs that you could roughly attribute to marijuana, with a slight majority of that number being trafficking charges.
Median duration of imprisonment on drug charges had a sentence of 10 months; mean duration would actually be more useful here for our calculations but it's all I could find on short notice.
http://nicic.gov/features/statestats/?state=ca
CA had 460 prisoners per 100,000 people; with a population of 37m that's 170k prisoners, of which 2700 are in solely for marijuana (and about 1200 are in for possession only).
CA cost-per-inmate-per-year is $45,045, so, with 2700 prisoners that's a cost of $101,351,250. Possession-only prisoners cost $44,341,171.
That doesn't account for policing or court costs.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:48 pm

Ess writes for all247news.com.
I appreciate the links - I will go through them when I have more time later today.
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cthulhu
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Post by cthulhu » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:59 pm

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/featur ... avois.html
is pretty intresting.
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Maj
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Post by Maj » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:33 am

Props, mean liar - I needed those stats.
Wow. There's some interesting stuff. I don't know how I missed the Prop 19 news. What do you guys make of it? I see the stoners' POV, but on the other hand, it seems like California is doing this so that they can help their budget. I think my personal support would go for any kind of legalization in the first place with the added goal of state revenue, and then campaign for more relaxed regulations as time went on.
Does anyone have good sources about marijuana and addiction (searching for this nets me lots of drug rehab, but no scientific evidence). Are there countries where it's legal and there are job problems? If marijuana is legalized, then growing hemp would be allowed, yeah? And that would have a very far-reaching influence on industries from paper to fabric...
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:12 am

Well in South Australia (note: Australia is one big job problem) it has been decriminalised. Which basically means:
1 plant (or 3 plants or something - no-one is sure any more) in your back yard: not a crime
Many plants in the back yard: there's your intent to sell, go straight to jail, do not pass Go
Toking up in your own house/back yard: not a crime
Toking up in your front yard: misdemeanour, take a fine
Carrying a joint or two off your own property: misdemeanour, fine
Enough to be called "possession with intent to distribute" (price tags is a dead give away): go straight to jail, do not pass Go
In practice though, it means anyone who isn't busy murdering people is completely stoned all the time.
Last edited by Koumei on Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Jilocasin
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Post by Jilocasin » Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:52 am

If Prop 19 does pass it'll be interesting to see what Eric Holder's response actually is.
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/10/25/what ... juana.html
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cthulhu
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Post by cthulhu » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:05 am

> Koumei wrote:Well in South Australia (note: Australia is one big job problem) it has been decriminalised. Which basically means:

What do you mean job problem?
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:16 am

> cthulhu wrote:

> > Koumei wrote:Well in South Australia (note: Australia is one big job problem) it has been decriminalised. Which basically means:

> What do you mean job problem?

Simple: Australia doesn't actually have jobs. Unless there's a secret job market I don't know about and employers are just playing games with me.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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cthulhu
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Post by cthulhu » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:11 am

Yeah, I'd make the observation that the job market is very 'matey' in that knowing people is fucking useful. However if:
* You have a degree and are willing to live in Canberra?
* You have a trade qualification and are willing to live in WA?
Employment is practically assured. Fuck in Canberra they cannot find enough people to work at Macca's and there is TWO universities of uni students to supply them. Semi skilled or unskilled labour is a tougher market for the rest of Australia though. Your real problem is that you likely live in Adelaide.
Praka's advice is the best way to get a service industry job. Standard policy is over hire on casuals at the start because you literally have no idea who is dead wood and who is useful and just start culling anyone you don't like.
They do this in the operations phase too, but the number of positions is less because they have a solid core of staff to operate around.
Last edited by cthulhu on Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:15 am

I'm not sure this will help, but here in the states, I finally found a job by finding a new business, while it's being set up, not after it's opened it's doors, to which I so happen to have a relevant college certificate.
So, try that Koumei, if you can.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:21 am

I have no degree, and would not move to WA or Canberra for anything less than "Work an hour or two per day, make a million dollars a week". Now that I don't buy Warhams any more, I can almost live off what I get for not working at all, so clearly any job at all needs to pay better than that (which does indeed rule out fast food places, even if I was on heroin the whole time and thus able to put up with their shit, which I have already learned requires hard drugs, bringing us back on topic).

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Prak
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Post by Prak » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:29 am

> Koumei wrote:"Work an hour or two per day, make a million dollars a week"

Your options for these criteria are pretty much whoring and stripping, and you're going to have to drop your salary expectations, for prostitution, and be willing to work more hours, for stripping.
Also, it'd be illegal for you to strip in Au, wouldn't it? I don't know about your guys' prostitution laws.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.

> Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.

> FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
> You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.

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cthulhu
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Post by cthulhu » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:29 am

I can only suggest going to university or getting a trade qualification. Also Radeliade is fucked.
Last edited by cthulhu on Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:05 am

Prak: exactly. Hence I will never go to either of those places.
Cthulhu: I live in Victoria, as in, the only almost-worthwhile part of Australia. At the moment I'd be happy just working in a bookstore or something equally mundane, 9-5 on "Grown-up wages". Sure, everyone would love to hug ponies for their job*, but I thought "Work a retail, unexciting, still fairly low paying job" wouldn't be unrealistic.
Maybe in future if I can get smarter/find a way to cheat my brain into storing information, I'll do the Uni -> Pharmacist thing or whatever. Or by then I'll be in Sweden, where apparently they decided employing people was too much hassle, so the government just pays everyone acceptable sums of money instead.
*Some places offer this as a work-for-the-dole thing, where they send the more fragile people. Because ponies being trained need to get used to being around people all the time, so they seriously get people to just hug and pat them all day.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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Ganbare Gincun
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Post by Ganbare Gincun » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:26 pm

> cthulhu wrote:Yeah, I'd make the observation that the job market is very 'matey' in that knowing people is fucking useful. However if:
> * You have a degree and are willing to live in Canberra?

What kind of degrees are they looking for?
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:42 pm

> Maj wrote:Does anyone have good sources about marijuana and addiction (searching for this nets me lots of drug rehab, but no scientific evidence). Are there countries where it's legal and there are job problems? If marijuana is legalized, then growing hemp would be allowed, yeah? And that would have a very far-reaching influence on industries from paper to fabric...

I don't have stats, but so far as addiction, it's below the heavy hitters like nicotine and heroin. I think it's below alcohol, but I don't know. I caught the last bit of a segment on NPR on it last week, and that's basically what the woman was saying.
As for countries where it's legal, I thought a whole bunch of stuff was legal in the Netherlands, but I don't know how they're faring with jobs, and I'm not even sure how to begin running a study that links any of that to pot use.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:48 pm

It's way less addictive than alcohol. Going by vague memories of studies with charts and stuff, not going by any personal experience.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

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ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:54 pm

Going by personal experience, marijuana is not physically addictive at all. I would say that it's less addictive than internet access (seriously, I start panicking when I don't get online for two days, but I only really feel the need to smoke once a month or so when something really fucks with my head).
So, less addictive than alcohol and internet access I'd say. The actual studies state that there's no physical withdrawal symptoms (the stuff that you measure addiction by), but it is habit forming (because you chill the fuck out and enjoy your day).
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Ganbare Gincun
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Post by Ganbare Gincun » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:11 pm

Here's what Penn & Teller have to say about Marijuana.
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cthulhu
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Post by cthulhu » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:03 am

> Ganbare Gincun wrote:

> > cthulhu wrote:Yeah, I'd make the observation that the job market is very 'matey' in that knowing people is fucking useful. However if:
> > * You have a degree and are willing to live in Canberra?

> What kind of degrees are they looking for?

You need to be an Australian citizen for most of the degree work, except teaching. If you are they are looking for warm bodies. The traditional ones of accounting, engineering are the most demanded, but a BA is enough. Howeever, we don't even have tradies.

> ACTCCI chief executive Chris Peters is tipping businesses will provide pay increases to current workers, to entice employees to remain in their jobs.
> "We need just about everything - we need doctors, nurses, teachers, all of the traditional trades areas," he said.
> "You cannot get motor mechanics, you cannot get refrigeration or air conditioning people - just about everything, the only area where there's not a shortage, is one part of the IT industry."

Local chamber of commerce. (the quote is a bit old.. but) The reason?

> The unemployment rate in the ACT remains one of the lowest in the country.
> New survey figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) show the unemployment rate fell from 3.4 per cent in April to 3.3 per cent in May, in trend terms.

This is up 1% from pre-GFC lows. Stats are 2010.
Last edited by cthulhu on Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Meikle641
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Post by Meikle641 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:17 am

Makes me wish my chances at being a tradesman didn't get sabotaged by the school district. Glad some of them can get work there, though.
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