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virgil
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### Artifact protection idea request

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Post by virgil » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:30 pm

I am considering an adventure with an artifact sealed inside something that would most efficiently be overcome by a magic item that applies a triple strength Enlarge metamagic. I want the effect to use a minimal of DM fiat in rules, but circumstances can be whatever is needed to have the item protected such that ultra-long range spells are a major advantage.
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:11 am

Is there a question here? I can't parse it.
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shadzar
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Post by shadzar » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:12 am

T.A.R.D.I.S housing the Eye of Harmony?
Play the game, not the rules.

> Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.

> Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.

good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:26 am

The item is protected by an auto-targeting laser of doom with long range, an {n-1}-strength range increaser, and a CL slightly higher than the party's caster level.
The laser can be disabled by hitting it with a spell, so if you have more range, you can just poke it off.
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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:36 am

To start with: a long chasm, just short enough that they can reach across with triple empowered telekinesis.
Two: this chasm appears to be bottomless; it's inky blacknes absorbs all light. In truth it contains ten thousand Umbral Blots, who will all instantly fly out and attempt to devourer anyone who flies over it.
Three: there is a single bridge across this chasm. It is one inch wide and covered with molten oil of slipperiness that pours from the mouth of the Adamantine Colossus that straddles the chasm. It's also simultaneously magically frozen and magically electrified. DC 80 balance check to cross. 2d6/2d6/2d6 fire/electric/cold damage per round spend on the bridge.
Four: you'd think that the Adamantine Colossus would attack anyone that attempts to cross the bridge. But it won't. This is because that the entire chasm is blocked by a 5-foot-thick invisible Adamantine Wall that has a slot just large enough for the artifact to fit through. Should you attempt to disintegrate your way through the wall, then the Colossus will attack you.
Fifth: attempting to lift the artifact without th proper password sets off a magical laser sat. Everyone in the vicinity takes 100d20 damage, no save. Your side of the chasm is safe.
Sixth:Attempting to tunnel in from the other side is also impossible, as the whole thing is surrounded by a three-quarters dome of annihilation that is immune to anti-magic, leaving the front entrance as the only way in.
The correct solution is to levitate the artifact through the slot on the invisible wall. The other one is to give the Colossus the proper password, in which case he'll disable all of the defenses and pass the artifact to you.
Edit: The Password is "I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Wiener." However, if the PCs should guess this the cavern also contains a Cursed Stone of Wishing, which only grants wishes that directly harm the wisher (And it only effects the Wisher, no one else, so it can't be used as a suicide bomb). This trap must be disabled with an anti-magic field.
Last edited by hyzmarca on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:13 am

Put it in a volcano and then add a deadly magical effect that's really hard to overcome without resorting to antimagic fields.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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virgil
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Post by virgil » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:31 am

> deaddmwalking wrote:Is there a question here? I can't parse it.

Inferred from the thread title. I am asking for help developing a method of containing an artifact that is ideally overcome with a triple-enlarged spell. I want to use a minimal amount of DM fiat in the design, since sticking to the rules is a good thing IMO. This does make Hyzmarca's suggestion of limited use with its Tomb of Horror philosophy; points for imagery though. For setting purposes, if plain 7th level magic can overcome the protections, that's fine.
Last edited by virgil on Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:24 am

That's kind of what I thought you were going for, but wasn't quite sure.
Assume a physical barrier that surrounds the object. Any damage done to the physical barrier is applied in an area around the physical barrier. Example, you hit the physical barrier with a melee attack and all creatures within 60' (say) are dealt the same amount of damage (save for half if you're nice). Likewise, each elemental damage - hit it with fire and it deals fire damage.
Each time the damage crosses a certain threshold, the area increases. If you deal more than 30 damage, the area of reciprocal damage is doubled; if you do more than 60 damage it is tripled.
The physical barrier resists 200 points of damage of each type (physical/fire/cold/etc). Any single damage type in excess of this amount can penetrate/destroy the barrier. The barrier regenerates 10 hit points of resistance against each damage type each round.
....
Working this out:
If I wanted to deal 200 points of damage in a combination of 2 attacks within a single round (to prevent it from regenerating) I might deal 100 damage with each attack. Assuming that 90+ damage quadruples the area, each attack against the barrier 'refracts' to deal ~100 damage to all creatures within 240'.
It wouldn't require 3x Enlarge, but it would cause people to keep their distance.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:33 am

So the artifact is in a box made of magical regenerating reactive tank armor? Interesting idea, but you'll need to put it someplace where you can't drop big rocks from way overhead or fire cannons/bomb-tipped ballista bolts from a long ways off.
Make sure the party can't flood the place with burning oil.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:20 am

I'm thinking of having it be in a remote location, in a 1 mile diameter spherical chamber (presuming underground). Filling out to the edge of the chamber is a magic item with a continuous transdimensional control winds effect as if cast by a 21st level caster, set for a downdraft blowing outward at tornado strength. The magic of it and the artifact combined is strong enough to make teleportation ineffective within the area.
When it comes to dispel magic, I don't know if it needs to target the item directly (the Medium range posing a logistical issue) or if it can target the edge of the spell to suppress the item for 1d4 rounds.
Last edited by virgil on Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:29 am

What if the party tries summoning air elementals or storm demons to go fetch the macguffin?
What if they send something incorporeal with a ghost touch gauntlet, or approach ethereally?
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CCarter
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Post by CCarter » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:35 am

Buried chamber 3000 or so feet down which is proofed against Teleport and incorporeal creatures, but not Dimension Door. You could have a suicide compulsion effect that strikes an entering target immediately and lasts for a round (a DD caster is fine because their turn immediately ends - a Teleporting caster easily makes the range but will not be disoriented and will coup de grace themselves unless they're undead - presumably triggering alternative anti-undead measures - or otherwise compulsion-resistant). Or the area could have a teleport-redirection spell that is keyed to not affect DD. Or both.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:37 am

The object is very high up in the sky. Preferably the night sky, maybe in orbit if things work like that in setting, duct taped to the firmament itself or whatever otherwise.
The main trick is knowing it is up there, which star it is and having a telekinetic grab of some kind long enough to tug it into falling to earth nearby shortly after.
And if 300% (or is it 8x ?) mage hand is too short, or Telekinesis too long or high level, or if you just don't do TK stuff, then hell send it a text message with Whispering Wind (x3 Enlarged range) or dispel it's space duct tape or whatever other activation effect.
As an added bonus once a character does know the trick to it if they have the appropriate spell memorized or on a scroll or something they can call the damn thing into the middle of a dramatic outdoor encounter.
Of course, bullshit ideas aside, the request seems so VERY particular as to be... deeply worrying in the "is any of this a good idea in the first place? There are just too many "why is this even..?" to seem safe or sane.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:51 pm

> Avoraciopoctules wrote:What if the party tries summoning air elementals or storm demons to go fetch the macguffin?
> What if they send something incorporeal with a ghost touch gauntlet, or approach ethereally?

The transdimensional metamagic part makes the spell affect all ethereal/incorporeal/etc creatures, they can't fly through the storm without being subject to buffeting.

> PhoneLobster wrote:Of course, bullshit ideas aside, the request seems so VERY particular as to be... deeply worrying in the "is any of this a good idea in the first place? There are just too many "why is this even..?" to seem safe or sane.

It's something I'm working on for my current campaign, and I had an idea for a nifty minor artifact that works as a triple enlarge metamagic rod; but I want to give it some importance to the plot/setting that goes beyond player abuse.
Last edited by virgil on Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Whatever
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Post by Whatever » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:54 pm

Instead of trying to punish players for using anything but the Special Item, why not set up a temple or library where the item lets you access hidden vaults and rooms? Destroying the place is possible, but it'd be highly frowned upon. It might even cause major structural damage to the city, depending on the architecture. And you can use Hallow to block the more obvious extradimensional means of entrance.
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Previn
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Post by Previn » Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:48 pm

Huh, on first reading that I thought virgil wanted an item that you had to use the Enlarge metamagic on the magic protecting it like an Incantrix. I was picturing a spherical variant of a force cage that had be enlarged enough to allow the object to pass between the 'bars.'
Still useable I suppose.
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name_here
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Post by name_here » Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:37 pm

Well, basically what you need is an environment that cannot be effectively operated in without magic and something that makes it difficult to bypass magically. Hence the volcano idea: either the effect gets you or you negate it and must wade through lava without fire resistance. Alternately, it's underwater and surrounded by dispel magic traps that trigger when anyone gets near. Perhaps the artifact itself can locally block teleportation effects, which would both be a useful defense mechanism and an additional motive for wanting it.

> DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.

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hyzmarca
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Post by hyzmarca » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:48 pm

> virgil wrote:It's something I'm working on for my current campaign, and I had an idea for a nifty minor artifact that works as a triple enlarge metamagic rod; but I want to give it some importance to the plot/setting that goes beyond player abuse.

In that case, you give the item history. It doesn't need to be a key to something more important; it just needs history. At the very simplest, it can be someone's Rosebud Sled.
Say the tripple enlarge artifact once belonged to an amoral archmage who became a Demi-Lich. He wants it back. He doesn't need it. He has others. He even has quadruple enlarge artifacts. But that's the first artifact he made when he was still mortal and despite the centuries of undeath he still has an overwhelming emotional attachment to it.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:04 am

> Previn wrote:Huh, on first reading that I thought virgil wanted an item that you had to use the Enlarge metamagic on the magic protecting it

After several read throughs it STILL sounds like what he was asking for, and even with his clarification it now seems like the only difference to what he is asking for is "oh AND the way they get 300% enlarge metamagic is with this OTHER artefact they ALREADY have!".
But really regardless, Virgil seems so bad at explaining what he wants or what the underlying situation is that maybe he should give up trying to even do something that complex because it's looking increasingly like he won't even be able to adequately communicate it to his players.
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virgil
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Post by virgil » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:03 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:But really regardless, Virgil seems so bad at explaining what he wants or what the underlying situation is that maybe he should give up trying to even do something that complex because it's looking increasingly like he won't even be able to adequately communicate it to his players.

Fuck you. Here's the situation and what I was asking for help with.
Party has a magic item. It's a metamagic rod of Enlarge Spell, but it applies the feat THREE times; so it will multiply the range of any Short/Medium/Long range spell by FOUR.
I know the party, they're not going to use it for much. Maybe the occasional laugh as they throw fireballs from really far away. I want to create a situation where they NEED to use it. Two of the players are wizards, level 9 each.
Their primary motivation is getting treasure and killing stuff that gets in their way. It's been their roleplaying style for as long as I've known them.
I am going to have a MacGuffin that is hard to reach, somehow. I don't want them to be able to ignore the super-metamagic rod and get the MacGuffin some other way. I do not want a Tomb of Horrors deathtrap. I do not want a laundry list of divine signs that say "insert only rods." The fewer rules I have to break, the better.
Is that clear? Do I truly sound like a drunk retard on sedatives? Why are so many people unable to understand me today?
/endrant
Do not get me wrong, there are good ideas here. The star to be pulled down or text messaged is something to consider. I think the transdimensional tornado has merit. The delicate temple has potential, but I don't quite know what longer range spells would do in this case that normal ones couldn't do; same goes for the volcano idea, especially if they could just bind a fire mephit.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:49 am

> virgil wrote:Party has a magic item. It's a metamagic rod of Enlarge Spell, but it applies the feat THREE times; so it will multiply the range of any Short/Medium/Long range spell by FOUR.

It's never been entirely clear to me if stacking metamagic enlarge would do either nothing due to some random bad wrong fun rule, add +100% (base) range each time (your interpretation or the "+300%" version or if it's supposed to add +100% of the current modified range with each step making it, 2x then 4x then 8x base range by the time you apply it three times stacking.

> I want to create a situation where they NEED to use it.

That is rather unfortunate. if they aren't interested in your item maybe they just aren't interested in your item. Make more encounters that start at longer ranges and see what happens, maybe they'll use it by themselves, if not, maybe you should just get over it. Bringing it back again and again to "hey guys! Why don't you use that kick ass rod I gave you that you never use!" isn't going to go over well.

> I don't quite know what longer range spells would do in this case that normal ones couldn't do

But... if the only difference that the rod makes is longer range then the only thing they CAN do by definition that "normal" spells can't is to do the same thing at a longer distance.
In the case of the pulling down the star the only difference it can make is doing it from further away. A long enough range spell, the same spell without the metamagic but with a high enough caster level for the range, a sufficiently effective bypass with teleport or flight or minions could potentially do it to. But you simply cannot rule that sort of thing out without resorting to bullshit railroad read my mind tomb of horrors type traps. You can set up your super long chasm with the intention of them 400% ranging an acid arrow only to have them teleport over and acid splash it instead, and that's a good thing because anything else is basically yelling "Screw you and your logic!" at your players.
edit: In fact so much of this rubs me the wrong way because it is treading VERY dangerously close to "Riddle Me Not" territory. You want to avoid that, which means your whole objective here is "This isn't a riddle, its a physical obstacle (a hopefully remotely sensible one) that many player character abilities can potentially interact with." So the answer to "why don't we just summon celestial buffalo to solve it instead?" needs to be "Yeah why not?", any non-bypassable single solution "riddle" is pretty much definitional bad GMing. If not one of the prime archetypal examples of bad GMing.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Post by Avoraciopoctules » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:15 am

Okay, now that you've explained the situation more clearly I think we can work this out.
We are looking at a situation where distance is what's important. And that's helpful. If we work at sufficiently extreme distances, then we can bypass much of the ridiculous stuff that can happen when a reasonably sophisticated party is within the same gravity well as their target.
So, what are some examples where the party can only solve their problem by quadrupling the range of a spell?
1. A scientist wants to take a sample of a magically active comet on the far side of the solar system, but the custom teleportation effect they've plugged into their magic telescope only reaches half as far as they need.
2. The Emperor has commissioned a grand line of magical semaphore towers, but the project looks like it will come in over budget. If somebody could find a way to improve the enchantments so the towers were effective over longer distances, a lot of engineers would owe them favors.
3. One charge of Control Weather is all the Tower of Eagles can generate per month, but a single casting won't reach far enough to deal with the entire drought-struck area. And no other available Metamagic Rod is powerful enough to boost the Tower's magic.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:27 am

As I said earlier, make something dangerous but immobile (or at least a lot slower than the party) with range between 3x and 4x, so range 4x lets you pwn it, but you can still technically fight it without it.
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Post by erik » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:38 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:It's never been entirely clear to me if stacking metamagic enlarge would do either nothing due to some random bad wrong fun rule, add +100% (base) range each time (your interpretation or the "+300%" version or if it's supposed to add +100% of the current modified range with each step making it, 2x then 4x then 8x base range by the time you apply it three times stacking.

I think this one is in da rules and Virgil had it right.

> [url wrote:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm[/url]]Multiplying
> Sometimes a rule makes you multiply a number or a die roll. As long as you’re applying a single multiplier, multiply the number normally. When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple, with each extra multiple adding 1 less than its value to the first multiple. Thus, a double (×2) and a double (×2) applied to the same number results in a triple (×3, because 2 + 1 = 3).

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virgil
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Post by virgil » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:31 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:That is rather unfortunate. if they aren't interested in your item maybe they just aren't interested in your item. Make more encounters that start at longer ranges and see what happens, maybe they'll use it by themselves, if not, maybe you should just get over it. Bringing it back again and again to "hey guys! Why don't you use that kick ass rod I gave you that you never use!" isn't going to go over well.

There is a difference between coming up with A situation and repeatedly forcing them into using it. Besides, I shouldn't have to go into depth on the psychology of my group with you. I know them. You don't.

> But... if the only difference that the rod makes is longer range then the only thing they CAN do by definition that "normal" spells can't is to do the same thing at a longer distance.

You're doing a poor job of explaining yourself.

> the same spell without the metamagic but with a high enough caster level for the range

Even a single Enlarge extends a spell's range far beyond what caster level could do without going into Joke Book.

> a sufficiently effective bypass with teleport or flight or minions could potentially do it to.

So all problems are forever solved by level 9, because how dare we try to consider a situation that can't be solved with a celestial buffalo and basic teleportation?

> But you simply cannot rule that sort of thing out without resorting to bullshit railroad read my mind tomb of horrors type traps.

Did your reading comprehension get level drained? I explicitly asked for no Tomb of Horrors death traps. I am aware that surrounding something with "rocks fall" signs is a bad thing, which is why I want to limit the use of breaking the rules. It's also why I'm asking for ideas, so I DON'T do that.
But the way your rhetoric works, I'm not allowed to use a permanent prismatic sphere with a hallow inside, especially if I give this party a scroll of disintegrate or a rod of negation beforehand.
Last edited by virgil on Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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