# The Gaming Den

Welcome to the Gaming Den.

Skip to content

## 5th Edition Is A Mess

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply

- Print view

207 posts

- Page 4 of 9
  - Jump to page:
- Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- 6
- …
- 9
- Next

SlyJohnny
  Duke
  Posts: 1418
  Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:35 pm

###

- Quote

Post by SlyJohnny » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:42 pm

Sure. I haven't played it, and most of the complaints about it that I've heard have centred around it being more videogame-y in terms of mechanics. It apparently centers a lot on positioning, and rogues and fighters and stuff doing maneuvers that move them around, which sounds reasonable. Caster dominance is apparently less of a thing, too.
I would've thought it's superior to this "back to basics, GM is God and is is expected to invent rules on an ad-hoc basis" incoherent mess?
Last edited by SlyJohnny on Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top

...You Lost Me
  Duke
  Posts: 1854
  Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:21 am

###

- Quote

Post by ...You Lost Me » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:25 pm

Combat is super grindy, classes play largely identically, out-of-combat stuff is essentially not a functional game, challenges are supposed to scale to PC abilities (as opposed to being objectively difficult), PC v. Monster discrepancies are very obvious, and some very basic content never showed up. More subjectively, a single power source for everyone was an annoyance and the books were bloated as all hell despite having less substance.

> DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.

> Kaelik wrote:I invented saying mean things about Tussock.

Top

Whipstitch
  Prince
  Posts: 3657
  Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:23 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Whipstitch » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:25 pm

There's also the whole issue where they never really figured out a way to keep shit like all melee or all ranged teams from being easy mode due to very basic synergy. That is, a pure firing line team is very strong because every single party member brings moar kiting to the table. Likewise a melee pain train is very strong because you can largely skip crowd control due to the party organically spreading damage around the entire group so as to more efficiently make use of healing surges and because melee abilities tend to give you a bit more damage in exchange for the lack of range. Neither group really benefits from adding a single member of the opposite archetype because in the case of the former the melee asshole will just get his healing surges pounded out of him when he gets dogpiled while adding an archer to a melee pain train just means that you now have someone freeloading instead threatening squares and soaking up their share of attacks.
I'm going to go ahead and quote Frank here since he's explained before why a team of Paladins, aka the Knights of the Round are a particularly egregious example of the above principle.

> FrankTrollman wrote:

> > RobbyPants wrote:

> > > FrankTrollman wrote: The point is that if you have lots of different synergistic things, and it's all synergy that points to other classes (to prevent Knights of the Round horseshit), then it doesn't really matter if there's some ideal party layout. The practical effect is still that you're going to be glad every other character is there.

> > I'm not sure what the Knights of the Round part references. Is it stacking synergy or something?

> It's a 4e thing. The 4e Paladin is... really bad. He has high defenses, a large amount of healing surges, and the ability to shunt his healing surges to other characters - but he has very little offensive power and can only produce short term incentives for enemies to avoid attacking his friends... one at a time. He does his job as a "defender" very very badly. The vast majority of enemies can simply walk around him, and while he can contribute his healing surges to his allies, healing surges provide less hit points to non-Paladin characters and they also take more damage per turn, making that a poor trade in most cases.
> But imagine for the moment that every character in the party was a Paladin. The fact that the enemies can make their attacks on almost any character matters little because all characters have the same high defenses. The fact that they could choose to gang up on any particular character matters not at all, because everyone has a huge communal store of fungible healing surges. And the fact that each character has low damage output doesn't matter because every character is geared up for the long grind. If you have only Paladins in your party, the Paladin is actually pretty kick ass, in that there is absolutely no encounter that poses a serious threat to the team at any level. But of course, every non-Paladin you put in that party makes the party weaker. But when you get it down to one Paladin, it is the Paladin character who is least valuable player every battle.
> That's the kind of design you want to avoid like the plague. It should never be advantageous to go all-in on a single character archetype. And every character archetype should play nice with others.
> -Username17

Last edited by Whipstitch on Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
bears fall, everyone dies
Top

Voss
  Prince
  Posts: 3912
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Voss » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:35 pm

> SlyJohnny wrote:Sure. I haven't played it, and most of the complaints about it that I've heard have centred around it being more videogame-y in terms of mechanics. It apparently centers a lot on positioning, and rogues and fighters and stuff doing maneuvers that move them around, which sounds reasonable. Caster dominance is apparently less of a thing, too.
> I would've thought it's superior to this "back to basics, GM is God and is is expected to invent rules on an ad-hoc basis" incoherent mess?

Not really, because the things you listed as 'centers a lot on' are just intentions, not fully fleshed out parts. But it also does 'invent rules on ad-hoc basis' an awful fucking lot, because like 5e, the people WotC likes to hire aren't capable of the detail work.
It's also full of very bad math that gets worse as it goes along. Elite and solo monsters double down on that shitty math (including AC and HP bloat), so you can be nerf-punching a goblin boss for literal hours of boring ass combat, and there isn't anything but boring ass combat (aside from the skill check rules, which are 'one player with best skill bonus rolls a d20 10-15 times and hopes 8 successes come up before 4 failures' and the odds of that aren't good.
And just for the lulz, 4e shifts genres a bit. You could theoretically do it as a D&D fantasy game, but often it's seriously Sailor Moon and friends shooting elemental/holy themed lasers at ugly things. Which could be fun, except you start out with one laser per combat and work up to a grand total of 3 (ok, 4 in the teen levels), and otherwise you punch people in the face with a basic attack that may or may not allow you slide one square before or after. And that is the 'centers on positioning' bullshit.
Last edited by Voss on Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Top

souran
  Duke
  Posts: 1113
  Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:29 pm

###

- Quote

Post by souran » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:37 pm

I like 4E and play/played it a lot. I think I can speak fairly about things that are wrong with it. You can see lots of people will admit to not liking it even though they never played it. Lots of people played it once, or just read a couple rulebooks and decided they didn't like it.
4E is a tactical RPG. The abilities are supposed to be read closely like magic cards but are crafted at about the skill level that magic card designers had in 2001 (4E of course came out in 2008). They never got much better at it either. As a tactical RPG, and even as a dungeon crawler board game 4E works very well.
However, D&D in 2008, and even more so now, is so freaking far removed from just being a game about pushing mini's around that 4E is simply not D&D to about 80% of the player base.
All of the other stuff, about grindyness, or video gameyness, or absolute/relative DCs can all be argued and explained but the thing you cannot change about 4E is that its table play is just fucking different and most people don't like it as much.
Last edited by souran on Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top

Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Kaelik » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:45 pm

> souran wrote:More of the same incorrect garbage thoughts on why 4E is bad form people who have, just by the way they talk about it, never played 4E.
> I have and like playing 4E, but the more I play it the more I have figured out that it really isn't a good at being D&D. After many years of arguing with people about how 4E is not like an MMO I have come to the conclusion that a lot of what people don't like about 4E is because it is, in some ways a lot like an MMO.

Everyone here is wrong about 4e. I spent years being wrong about 4e, but now I'm definitely right about 4e!
Yep, don't need to read any more.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Top

zugschef
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 821
  Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:53 pm

###

- Quote

Post by zugschef » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:50 pm

So what you're saying is that you basically totally agree that 4E is a shitty rpg.
Top

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:14 pm

4e is in fact a shitty rpg that tries to fit MMO pieces in left right and center in a lot of ways that don't work or even make sense. The game is full of elements that are bizarrely small in terms of covered conceptual space because the game was designed to be easy to write material for rather than to have the flexibility to tell cooperative stories. The math was made much of but was actually pretty bad. And the social media campaign they launched to try to bully people into switching was one of the worst things to happen to the hobby. That last part is not an exaggeration.
That being said, I am not convinced it's actually worse than 5e. Yes, 4e's attitude is offensive and insulting. And the shit about ice being more slippery when you are higher level is fucking bat country. But at least there are DCs for things. It's all limited and videogamey, but there's something there. I can't say that about 5th.
-Username17
Top

Wiseman
  Duke
  Posts: 1394
  Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:43 pm
  Location: That one place
  Contact:
  Contact Wiseman
  Website

###

- Quote

Post by Wiseman » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:41 pm

What social media campaign? I don't use any, so I'm in the dark about this bullying.
Keys to the Contract: A crossover between Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Kingdom Hearts.

> RadiantPhoenix wrote:

> > TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".

> The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".

> hyzmarca wrote:Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.

Top

Shrieking Banshee
  Journeyman
  Posts: 143
  Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:33 pm
  Location: Space

###

- Quote

Post by Shrieking Banshee » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:03 pm

Remember those animations? People who disagreed with them would get shit on. Literally.
Top

Sir Aubergine
  Apprentice
  Posts: 74
  Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:53 am
  Location: The corner of your eye.

###

- Quote

Post by Sir Aubergine » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:46 am

4th edition brought us the Corruption Corpse...
http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article95.htm
and for that I am grateful.
The Denner’s Oath
The Denner, The Denner’s reflection: [in unison] A Denner is unhelpful, unfriendly and unkind.
The Denner’s reflection: With ungracious thoughts...
The Denner: ...in an unhealthy mind.
The Denner’s reflection: A Denner is uncheerful, uncouth and unclean. Now say this together!
The Denner, The Denner’s reflection: I'm frightfully mean! My eyes are both shifty. My fingers are thrifty.
The Denner: My mouth does not smile.
The Denner’s reflection: Not half of an inch.
The Denner: I'm a Denner.
The Denner’s reflection: I... am a Denner.
The Denner: I'm a Denner!
The Denner’s reflection: That's my boy. Now go out and prove it!
Top

OgreBattle
  King
  Posts: 6819
  Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

###

- Quote

Post by OgreBattle » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:50 am

I'd say the core rules of 4e are more workable for writing fix content than the core rules of 5e. Slapping hybrid classes together with themes and multiclass feats was entertaining in a way that I haven't found with 5e character creation.
Top

maglag
  Duke
  Posts: 1912
  Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:17 am

###

- Quote

Post by maglag » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:30 pm

> Wiseman wrote:What social media campaign? I don't use any, so I'm in the dark about this bullying.

Besides the animations they were publishing articles about how 4e was the coolest and 3.X was pure crap in comparison and how you should burn sell your 3.X books to buy the brand new 4e books. Literally.
But what was really worst was that the above sparked the raise of "4vengers", an army of fanboys who went around bullying anyone who didn't recognize 4e as their one true flawless god.

> FrankTrollman wrote: Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.

Top

infected slut princess
  Knight-Baron
  Posts: 790
  Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:44 am
  Location: 3rd Avenue

###

- Quote

Post by infected slut princess » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:21 pm

I remember a video that sought to demonstrate 4e tieflings were the coolest things ever and anyone who wanted to play a gnome was a loser so if you complained about no gnomes in 4e you were pathetic.
Last edited by infected slut princess on Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

> Oh, then you are an idiot. Because infected slut princess has never posted anything worth reading at any time.

Top

Shrieking Banshee
  Journeyman
  Posts: 143
  Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:33 pm
  Location: Space

###

- Quote

Post by Shrieking Banshee » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:53 pm

God 4e was a fucking trainwreck. And I started RPGs with 4e.
Top

Koumei
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 13796
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
  Location: South Ausfailia

###

- Quote

Post by Koumei » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:58 am

> Shrieking Banshee wrote:God 4e was a fucking trainwreck. And I started RPGs with 4e.

This explains the shrieking.

> Count Arioch the 28th wrote:There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.

Top

Username17
  Serious Badass
  Posts: 29894
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Username17 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:24 am

The 4vengers were definitely a result of WotC's social media campaign. They were actively encouraged to dogpile people on WotC's own forums and also actively encouraged to go invade other forums on a regular basis. Back when 4e was a thing, we got regular forum invasions of aggressive assholes here to spread the word about how we were a bunch of idiot fossils for not immediately abandoning all RPGs that weren't 4th edition.
Some of this went through other, darker channels of course. Something Awful hosted "grognards.txt" which was a standing collection of naming and shaming people who didn't get on the 4e train around the internet. I mean, they literally held two minutes of hate for people who went public with not liking 4th edition. WotC very much knew this was happening, and they encouraged it rather than even try to make peace. People were starting whisper campaigns against 4e haters as people and then rather than say "Oh my fucking god, our fans are literally stalking people and the only reason they aren't going to jail is because the police haven't figured out how to apply laws against people on line, we have to take it down a notch" they rewarded the worst offenders with preview materials and special board titles and shit.
Of course, the grognards.txt assholes look like total buffoons now, because they have page after page of mocking people who dared to say that 4th edition wasn't doing well and it is historical fact that 4th edition crashed and burned hard. But imagine how ugly the gaming internet would be if they had somehow won?
-Username17
Top

maglag
  Duke
  Posts: 1912
  Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:17 am

###

- Quote

Post by maglag » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:19 pm

Plus don't forget, it was not only the players that Wotc was shiting on during 4e, they also bullied 3rd party companies by declaring that they (wotc) could at any point claim full rights for any 4e supplement not written by them.
And that's how Paizo went "fuck you, we'll make our own D&D, with blackjack and hookers", resulting in Pathfinder that ended outliving 4e.

> FrankTrollman wrote: Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.

Top

Heaven's Thunder Hammer
  Master
  Posts: 225
  Joined: Sun May 25, 2014 4:01 am

###

- Quote

Post by Heaven's Thunder Hammer » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:50 pm

So... back to 5E.... Is it only druids of the land circle that can create food and water?
My group is going to be playing a Wild West pioneering game of some kind.
Top

saithorthepyro
  Master
  Posts: 265
  Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:39 pm

###

- Quote

Post by saithorthepyro » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:16 pm

> Voss wrote:5e doesn't allow for many character decisions though, especially when compared to the constant dumpster diving that characterizes pathfinder.
> You choose race and class, at 1st, specialization and 2nd or 3rd, then feat or ability score increase at 4 or 5 points across 20 levels. There are a couple of exceptions (warlock being the most significant), but really you're only allowed about 8 'significant' choices over the entire lifespan of the character. Which is part of the reason they feel pretty hollow and lifeless- the game seriously does not want inputs from the players. Just take your +5 starting bonus and apply it mechanicanically to monsters while it gradually improves in a fairly set fashion and the monsters don't.

This pretty much describes my experience with 5th edition so far. Out of all of the classes I've tried, the only one I've really liked is the Warlock just because of how different it felt and how many options I was allowed. Who you make your pact with, what kind of pact, your Invocations, give a lot more choice than the other classes. And spell selection is a lot more difficult due to how few spells known and slots you get.
I came to 5th from pathfinder, which made it a much bigger shock. You can argue that most if not close to all of the content in Pathfinder was trap options and/or junk, but at least it was actually there, unlike here, where there's not a lot of variety. Even if you optionally throw in feats, you have to give up stat boosts to get them, and there's only 1-2 feats for weapon type or character, and 2-4 that anybody can benefit from.
Top

Voss
  Prince
  Posts: 3912
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Voss » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:57 am

Well, a lot of the problems with the warlock spell selection is warlocks get a smaller, shittier spell list. But you can cherry pick it enough for buffs, and just run around as sword guy with a pile of always on (or at will) powers and a small stock of buff spells. Plus laser machine gun bullets for no apparent reason.
Going mountain dwarf swording warlock for strength bonus and medium armor is one of the few counterintuitive but functional race-class combinations in the entire edition. Whereas the stereotype of a tiefling warlock is actually a rather poor life choice.
Top

saithorthepyro
  Master
  Posts: 265
  Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:39 pm

###

- Quote

Post by saithorthepyro » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:08 am

> Voss wrote:Well, a lot of the problems with the warlock spell selection is warlocks get a smaller, shittier spell list. But you can cherry pick it enough for buffs, and just run around as sword guy with a pile of always on (or at will) powers and a small stock of buff spells. Plus laser machine gun bullets for no apparent reason.
> Going mountain dwarf swording warlock for strength bonus and medium armor is one of the few counterintuitive but functional race-class combinations in the entire edition. Whereas the stereotype of a tiefling warlock is actually a rather poor life choice.

I actually do like the spell selection. Limited slots and spells known at least does something about full-casters normally having access to all the answers. As does the limited spell list. Now if only that lesson was applied to other full-casters as well. And maybe spell balance was fixed.
Top

Voss
  Prince
  Posts: 3912
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Voss » Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:05 pm

> saithorthepyro wrote: I actually do like the spell selection. Limited slots and spells known at least does something about full-casters normally having access to all the answers. As does the limited spell list. Now if only that lesson was applied to other full-casters as well. And maybe spell balance was fixed.

I mean the actual warlock spells are made of shit. Witchbolt is a crap damage spell that is even worse if the enemy realizes that taking a normal move directly away from you ends it entirely. The other offensive spells are similarly shitty, or put you in stupid circumstances (Arms of Hadar- running into the middle of the enemies and hugging them is a bad life choice). Aside from that there are a range of utility spells that range from pretty useless to 'is your DM gonna let you exploit that?' Some are nicely thematic, but can you afford thematic bullshit at low levels? And since warlocks aren't full casters, can you even afford it at high levels?
So you're either buffing your speed*, grabbing a small number of temp HP (which you'll have a better, at will, resource free version of at level 2), or juggling an action for a minor damage buff for a combat.
Short Version: the warlock spell list just lacks answers to problems. yes, you can and do pick up fly at level 5, but unless you inexplicably want to be a counter magic specialist, warlocks have bizarrely few ways to give enemies a hard time. Why they're better at counter magic than they are at curses or summoning (they don't get bestow curse or a lot of conjuring spells, including gate) is downright baffling. But they get a lot of crappy mind affecting shit that a lot of targets will just ignore.
*expeditious retreat has the usual caveat that bonus actions in 5e are incredibly stupid. You can only have one, so you can't cast the spell and benefit from it the turn you cast it. This also notably fucks the rogue, who can't use the bonus action to move really fast (Dash) and a bonus action to attack with an offhand weapon, because go fuck yourself. Also monks can't flurry and attack with an offhand weapon, because those are both separate bonus actions.
Last edited by Voss on Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Top

Aharon
  Master
  Posts: 216
  Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:55 am

###

- Quote

Post by Aharon » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:20 pm

> Voss wrote: The other player is on crack. That higher CR cap is functionally garbage.
> Yes, at 2nd level you can change into a CR 1 critter (instead of waiting until level 8, and I'm not even fucking kidding)
> At level 6 you can hit CR 2
> At 9, CR 3
> At 18th fucking level you can do CR 6 shapes.
> CR 1 is basically a tiger. Which does have really good hp for a 2nd level character (37), but has an utter shit AC (12), and has... 2 attacks at +5, dealing all of 1d10+3 and d8+3, and a chance to knock people down (DC 13) if you move and attack. The HP is extra good because of the fucking stupid way shapechange works.
> [Brown bear is also an option, for better claw damage (2d6+4), but drop 3 hp and a point of AC and the knock down... so yeah, you won't do that]
> Now, that isn't terrible at level 2, especially since it's functionally temporary hit points. Now, keep doing it at levels 3, 4 and 5 and it isn't so hot.
> At level 6... uh... Polar Bear, I guess.
> 42 hp, 12 AC and two attacks at +7, for 1d8+5 and 2d6+5. Congrats, four whole levels later, you get 5 more hp, and a minor bump in dpr.
> Or Rhino. AC 11, 45 hp, 1 attack +7, 2d8+5, +2d8 extra if you move 20' in a straight line, and DC 15 str or be prone.
> Third option is saber-toothed tiger. Again, more hp (52), because, apparently, tigers, but otherwise just a minor damage bump. And still a 12 fucking AC.
> At 9th level you can be a giant scorpion, and get 3 attacks... at +4 (and damage per hit also goes down), still have 52 hp, and make it to a heady AC 15. The poison is pretty good (4d10), but all of DC 12.
> Seriously Moon wild shape is effective at level 2, and not entirely shit at level 3. After that it is a joke.
> And you give up extra spells per day for this (natural recovery), and extra spells known that don't require memorization AND some of which wander off the good shit portion of the wizard list. Invisibility and haste (Grass), web, stinking cloud (underdark), slow (arctic), blur, silence (Desert, the spellcaster assassin, since silence has no save).
> This page has the animals of 5e. At CR 7, I think the Giant Ape is the pinnacle of animal options... but you can't ever be one. Elephants come online at level 12. 76 hp, and yes, still AC 12.
> http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/mons ... onsters-a/
> The site purports to be the 5e SRD, but... well. I'm not entirely convinced that is really a thing.

It's a bit better than that, you're forgetting the dinosaurs, which are also beasts.
At 6th level, you get the Allosaurus, +6 to hit, 2d10+4 bite and 5ft reach.
At 9th, you get the Ankylosaurus, with +7 to hit, 10 ft reach, and 4d6+4 damage.
At 10th level, you get elemental forms, which are nice for their immunities and resistances, as well as movement modes/specialties.
At 15th, the Triceratops comes online with +9 to hit and 4d8+6 damage
and at 18th, you get the Mammoth with +10 to hit and 4d8+7 damage
Top

Voss
  Prince
  Posts: 3912
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

###

- Quote

Post by Voss » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:04 am

Are you actually reading what you're writing? From 15th to 18th level, you expect me to care about +1/+1? The 15th level triceratops is a marginal improvement over the rhino at 6th. (+9 vs +7, 4d8+6 vs... 4d8+5). Go fuck yourself.
The Allosaurus compares pretty unfavorably to the bear I already listed (which hits more often and the two attacks are each 1d8+5 and 2d6+5 which is significantly better than 2d10+4, because +5, twice.
5e Wildshape is a weird pile of shit that benefits from phantom hit points but is penalized by abysmal AC, and is utterly inferior to druid spellcasting, where you just spawn those animals/elementals or even weirder shit, or save or suck. But even the normal version of wildshape can get you a pile of phantom HP, so... whatever. If you wanted to be a melee monster you shoulda been a cleric, or some other full caster that can have a functional AC and ridiculous ways proc extra attacks.
At level 6 you can get an extra casting (Natural Recovery) of Conjure Animals (any 1 CR 2, or multiples of lower CR critters), which acts independently and obeys without question.
Conjure Elemental spawns CR 5 elementals (as opposed to your CR 3 elemental form) and with Circle of the Land's Natural Recovery you can get an extra casting of that at level 10. You get a better pokemon for an hour that obeys you without question and has its own actions, which is a huge fucking multiplier in its own right. Land > Moon. Fuck off.
Additionally, on the Mammoth note, I will never care. This edition still has Shapechange in, and with that creature CR = your Level. So at 18th level, adult dragons are on the menu. As is anything from CR 7 to 17, and unlike wildshape, you keep class abililities. So turning into something your party was seriously supposed to be beating up 12 levels ago is singularly unimpressive, while turning into something supposedly capable of taking on the entire party now is... somewhat more impressive.
Last edited by Voss on Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
Top
Post Reply

- Print view

Display:
Sort by:
Direction:

207 posts

- Page 4 of 9
  - Jump to page:
- Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- 6
- …
- 9
- Next

Return to “In My Humble Opinion...”

Jump to

- Main
- ↳ About the Gaming Den
- ↳ In My Humble Opinion...
- ↳ I Gave the Mouse a Cookie...
- ↳ In The Trenches
- ↳ It's My Own Invention...
- ↳ MPSIMS