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## Adventure Paths that don't suck?

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Irish
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### Adventure Paths that don't suck?

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Post by Irish » Wed May 27, 2015 7:52 am

So the general consensus on most APs I see in the various review threads are that they're mostly terrible with occasional highlights. Which got me to wondering- is there any APs that the Den actually likes, taken as an overall?
Because I've been thinking about running something out of the box for a while in either Pathfinder or 3e, and I don't have time to actually make up a homebrew at the moment.
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Ice9
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Post by Ice9 » Wed May 27, 2015 8:21 am

The kingdom building rules are significantly flawed, and the BBEG shows up almost out of nowhere, but I still enjoyed Kingmaker considerably. Having the kingdom makes the hex-map exploration a lot more meaningful, and building up your towns to greatness is entertaining, even if easy after a certain point. And it gives (IMO) a good mix of combat, diplomacy, and discovery; at least the way we played it. Note that this is an AP with a lot of downtime and usually few encounters/day, so casters are where it's at.
Other than that - I liked parts of Crimson Throne. Not all of it, but I think it could be fixable if you're willing to write some of it yourself. Spoilers:
Instead of having the PCs fuck off to the desert to do fetch quests and that huge-ass castle dungeon, staying in town as members of the resistance, needing to sneak around and sabotage shit, would have worked a lot better.
Last edited by Ice9 on Wed May 27, 2015 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rasmuswagner
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Post by rasmuswagner » Wed May 27, 2015 9:02 am

I liked Serpent's Skull.
It has many issues:
*Murdering bystanders to draw attention to your ideology is not an evil act.
*Fucking Shadow Demon. Just...fuck it, so much.
*Post level 10, underleveled humanoids with AC and HP: one million, who attack at +piddly for 1d4+shit damage.
*piddly bullshit faction management
*"No this shit in the vaults that drives you crazy isn't a poison or a disease, it's spores. Fuck your immunities, you go crazy too. Look at me stroke my neckbeard". Fucking lazy-ass grognard writers.
...but all in all, I liked it.
Every time you play in a "low magic world" with D&D rules (or derivates), a unicorn steps on a kitten and an orphan drops his ice cream cone.
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Wed May 27, 2015 11:04 am

Off the bat, the fundamental problem with a level 1-20 AP is to have value, the PCs are going to have to do what the writers expect - it can make it feel like a railroad. Since everything is written in advance, it's hard to tailor things to the group.
But by-and-large, the APs have good moments. Adventure arcs are really good at times.
Fixing them isn't really too hard. Remember that they were written in order. If the final enemies seem to abrupt, you can add foreshadowing to earlier adventures. Also in the AP every adventure is tied to the larger plot. Since this isn't narrative fiction, it helps to add some 'side-treks'. You can even use them to elucidate some muddled themes.
I like Shackled City, Rise of the Runelords, and Crimson Throne. When the APs are at their best, you're making connections with NPCs that you'll encounter over and over (both positively and negatively). This can help a GM add some personality which really makes the game more interesting.
If you're running an AP, by willing to let the PCs off the rails. Of course they all involve the total destruction of the world but if your players are having more fun not solving the larger plot, I don't see how that's a bad thing.
The biggest thing for me was rate of advancement seems too fast. If you can add ~8 adventures (20 Levels in 20 adventures rather than 20 Levels in 12 adventures) things would have a better flow. Removing XP from monster kills also makes things better - but the players have to know. They throw in a bunch of combat encounters for no reason except 'kill for XP'. As a GM I got tired of the phrase 'because of x, y will fight to the death'. I understand why prisoners or escapees may complicate things, but it really makes things more interesting if sometimes the bad guys reevaluate their life choices before being smote.
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Silent Wayfarer
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Post by Silent Wayfarer » Wed May 27, 2015 12:16 pm

How's Rise of the Runelords?
I'm making a samsaran cleric for one. Not sure what I should expect. I plan to abuse mounted charges (via Animal Domain's animal companion) for meleeness. Is this doomed?
If your religion is worth killing for, please start with yourself.
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Wed May 27, 2015 1:45 pm

All the APs feature a bunch of dungeon crawls, so mounted combat is probably not going to work terribly well. If you want to play with animals, you're best off with a summoner. That way you don't have to explain how you brought your mount up the side of a mountain.
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Irish
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Post by Irish » Wed May 27, 2015 2:00 pm

I hear Kingmaker is the most outdoor oriented of all the paths, so I assume that Mounted Combat is probably at its best there.
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tussock
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Post by tussock » Wed May 27, 2015 2:10 pm

RotR: lotsa dungeon crawls, as I recall. There's some big-ass outdoor encounters, but I don't think you'd want to get in melee range in any of them. Something for everyone then, squishy things in tight confines to sword-and-board, and closet trolls out in the open to kite.
Some of the fights are impossible, but it's OK, because you're not supposed to win them and you don't get screwed by that. Or you do, or maybe it's a TPK, whatever.
Hilarious stuff here and there, in a grim sort of way. Lovely home base, pay attention, totally worth it. Oh, and the story is disgusting, but you get to murder all the ick along the way, so it's good. Enjoy. Second module was a bit pants-on-head, but it got better again. High level normally a disaster like usual, IIRC very easy to bypass bits via magic rather than bother to dungeon crawl. /spoiler.
PC, SJW, anti-fascist, not being a dick, or working on it, he/him.
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Seerow
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Post by Seerow » Wed May 27, 2015 2:21 pm

> Irish wrote:I hear Kingmaker is the most outdoor oriented of all the paths, so I assume that Mounted Combat is probably at its best there.

Even in Kingmaker there's at least one dungeon you're expected to go clear out per adventure module. But I have no idea how that compares to other APs (Kingmaker is the first and thus far only AP I've actually read through)
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DeadlyReed
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Post by DeadlyReed » Wed May 27, 2015 4:18 pm

Only 2 adventure paths ever compelled me to try running them but I could never find players who were interested. Personally, the 101 Not So Random Encounters books by Rite Publishing deliver a similar experience without the railroad and in less than 40 pages.
Last edited by DeadlyReed on Wed May 27, 2015 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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malak
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Post by malak » Wed May 27, 2015 6:36 pm

I ran the first module of Carrion Crown, "The Haunting of Harrowstone", and it was really good. Far better than I expected, and the players really enjoyed it. It's pretty free-form and non-railroady for a premade adventure. My players were a full-on evil party, but it worked well all the same.
I also ran the first module of Wrath of the Righteous. Don't. There are three NPCs that the adventure path forces on you that are immensely dislikable. I could understand when my player's killed them without second thought. In addition, it tries to force-feed you SJW propaganda (one of those three NPC is a transsexual, married to a girl. Whatever, but not what I expect or want from an AP that is sold as "High fantasy war against demons."). I read about that path that later, some lawful good goddess really fucks with your party, just for fun. Sounds about right.
I was also a player in a campaign of Rise of the Runelords, but I was only there for the last two books. Well... can't say I really recommend it. It was ok, but nothing special.
Last edited by malak on Wed May 27, 2015 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Seerow
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Post by Seerow » Wed May 27, 2015 6:38 pm

> I was also a player in a campaign of Rise of the Runelords, but I was only there for the last two books. Well... can't say I really recommend it. It was ok, but nothing special.

That's kind of disappointing. I've heard it was one of the better APs and was considering diving into that once my group finishes with Kingmaker.
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malak
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Post by malak » Wed May 27, 2015 6:42 pm

Well, if the first few books are fine, just go for it.
The chance that the campaign survives until the 5th book is slim anyway
Also, the DM I played with had kind of lost interest in 3.5 at that point, might well be that that was a factor, too.
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RelentlessImp
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Post by RelentlessImp » Wed May 27, 2015 7:05 pm

Savage Tide is okay til about Lightless Depths, where you can end it with no ill effect whatsoever.
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K
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Post by K » Wed May 27, 2015 8:21 pm

Shackled City probably has the most interesting early adventures and early NPCs. It later devolves into "we don't know how to do high-level adventures," but that can be said of most adventure paths.
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Schleiermacher
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Post by Schleiermacher » Wed May 27, 2015 8:33 pm

> [s wrote:Occluded Sun[/s] malak] In addition, it tries to force-feed you SJW propaganda (one of those three NPC is a transsexual, married to a girl. Whatever, but not what I expect or want from an AP that is sold as "High fantasy war against demons.")

I've never read or played Rise of the Runelords, but I'm really curious to hear how the existence of transsexual people constitutes "SJW propaganda".
Last edited by Schleiermacher on Wed May 27, 2015 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Blicero
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Post by Blicero » Wed May 27, 2015 9:47 pm

I ran the first two modules of Crimson Throne, ported into Legend. They weren't bad, and they have some vaguely decent encounter design. My players stated upfront they were okay with following the script I fed them. As the MC, I probably got more irritated with the linearity than they ever did.
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
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TiaC
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Post by TiaC » Wed May 27, 2015 10:58 pm

> deaddmwalking wrote:All the APs feature a bunch of dungeon crawls, so mounted combat is probably not going to work terribly well. If you want to play with animals, you're best off with a summoner. That way you don't have to explain how you brought your mount up the side of a mountain.

Taking the Narrow Frame on your mount helps a lot.
@Malak: Yes, how dare they add a memorable trait to a NPC. It is after all propaganda to acknowledge the existence of trans people.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik » Wed May 27, 2015 11:07 pm

> DSMatticus wrote:Note: that's malak, not maglag.

Which fucking sucks, because my backup after Kaelik, and Kaelik88 is always Malak or Malakar.
So now I will always be worried about being confused for a filthy MRA
It's like Caelic, but about issues that are actually important.
#FUCKCAELICANDMALAK2015.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Ice9
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Post by Ice9 » Wed May 27, 2015 11:43 pm

Welp. That's a thread derailed. I haven't read WotR, so I can't comment on specifics. I will note though, that 99% of the time, when people complain about "having [x] shoved in their face" it actually means "it was mentioned at all".*
WotR does have a pretty bad section though, from what I've heard; the meeting with ... some good-aligned goddess, I forget which, who acts more like a sadistic game-show host than a paragon of virtue. Keeping the meeting and scrapping the trivia part should fix that, I think.
Currently playing Shattered Star. If you like dungeons, and then more dungeons, and then more dungeons, then it'll be right up your alley. We're having fun becoming Dethklok using the Downtime rules, but that's unrelated to the AP.
* Edit: Oh look, like this time. Yeah, those 1-2 sentences of backstory for a single NPC, which isn't something the PCs would even necessarily hear, are really dominating that multi-book AP. Yup.
Last edited by Ice9 on Wed May 27, 2015 11:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Shady314
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Post by Shady314 » Wed May 27, 2015 11:55 pm

I've played Kingmaker. It's very easy to change it to suit your needs so I recommend it. I recommend you get all 5 adventures at once so you can see the overarching story going on. I felt it really needed some work and I had to read the whole series to see how I wanted to alter it. I changed it so it was set in Eberron and the settlers were the Cyran refugees that settled in Breland.
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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking » Thu May 28, 2015 12:33 am

Th e.re's all kinds of reasons an AP can be bad, but including a transgendered person is not one of them. Rise of the Runelords stirred similar vitriol because Sandpoint includes a paladin who is homosexual (male).
This is background information. The GM is expected to adjust the adventure content as necessary which can include replacing or modifying NPCs. Including a variety of characters makes it easier for real people relate to the game. If there is room in the game for a dragon - blooded celestial kobold, there is room for all the variations of real world human relationships. I enjoy fantasy primarily for the things it adds to our mundane existence - magic and heroic adventure - not for the things it takes away.
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hogarth
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Post by hogarth » Thu May 28, 2015 12:52 am

> K wrote:Shackled City probably has the most interesting early adventures and early NPCs. It later devolves into "we don't know how to do high-level adventures," but that can be said of most adventure paths.

I would argue it applies to most campaigns, adventure path or not. That's not as bad as it sounds, because 80% of the fun of playing D&D is hanging out with like-minded folks and shooting the shit.
In my experience, the average adventure path is much better than the average homebrew campaign, not least because you can read reviews of an adventure path before you play it.
From my comments on a Paizo messageboard thread:

> My favourites:
> -Age of Worms (played up to level 17 so far; most adventures were pretty good; the idea of killing a god is awesome)
> -Savage Tide (played up to level 9, the story line is very strong; it's very linear but for me that's a feature instead of a bug; the idea of killing a demon lord is awesome)
> -Carrion Crown (played up to level 7; liked the first adventure very much; some nice touches in terms of horror atmosphere)
> Ones I liked, but didn't love:
> -Rise of the Runelords (played up to level 6; the adventures were pretty good but not as tightly connected as I like)
> -Serpent's Skull (played up to level 5; adventures were fine but I was indifferent to the concept of different factions looking for a hidden city)
> -Legacy of Fire (played up to level 5; again the adventures were fine but I was indifferent to the concept)
> -Cure of the Crimson Throne (played up to level 3; the first adventure was pretty good but the game died soon after)
> -Shackled City (GMed a game up to level 4 or 5; I like that the adventures center around a single city, but there's too much dungeon-crawling for my taste)
> -War of the Burning Sky (played up to level 2 and subsequently read all of the adventures; I like the high concept premise of a world war, but a few of the adventures are clunkers)
> My least favourites:
> -Council of Thieves (played on and off until level 5; the idea of a rebellion in a city is cool, but the execution was clunky IMO)
> -Second Darkness (played until level 2; what's up with the casino bit in the beginning? it seemed like it belonged in a different adventure path)
> -Kingmaker (played until almost level 3; I had no interest in hex-crawling and random encounters -- YMMV)

Last edited by hogarth on Thu May 28, 2015 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Irish
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Post by Irish » Thu May 28, 2015 12:29 pm

Aaaaaaaalright, I think that's enough off topic insane ramblings about a relatively unimportant NPC and their genitals.
Any thoughts on Skulls and Shackles, or Jade Regent? Those have been pretty absent in the discussions thus far.
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Antariuk
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Post by Antariuk » Thu May 28, 2015 1:42 pm

> Irish wrote:Any thoughts on Skulls and Shackles, or Jade Regent? Those have been pretty absent in the discussions thus far.

S&S assumes the players will take all kinds of shit from NPCs to rise through the ranks of a pirate crew. Or that they'll only sail within the confinements of the AP and not somewhere else to do whatever they feel like. I can't speak for the later volumes though since I bowed out of the game early.
A non-Paizo AP that should be mentioned here is Way of the Wicked, a 3rd party AP for evil characters who want to take over the world and exact revenge on the kingdom. The custom setting is pretty bare-bones and needs some fleshing out, but other than that I'd say out-of-the-box it is better than some official Paizo APs and can be tons of fun. The players need to agree that their characters bow to Asmodeus for the AP to really work, but other than that there is little railroading and often they have lots of options on how to tackle any given task or problem.
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." - Steven Brust
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