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## Breaking magic away from classes

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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:00 pm

Not sure if you are on the same page here Talisman, the argument isn't whether Profession can be fixed, the argument is...
A) Whether it REALLY exists in the first place, since being so bad it apparently doesn't even count when certain people decide it doesn't.
B) Whether it is OK for it to exist despite being massively inferior to options purchased with the same resources.
Effectively the claim isn't that fire ball can't be fixed, PR, and YOU are arguing a "shouldn't be"/"doesn't need to be" fixed position.
Need I remind you that you are the one taking the position that any rule you nominate just plain doesn't count and can remain in the game without any further modification or consideration when making modification.

> Talisman wrote:So is comparing magic of any level to one of the most literally useless skills in the game.
> Compare it to Tumble or Spot and then we can talk....
> ...When was the last time a PC of yours took Profession?
> I ignore it when making PCs. Page 80 of the PHB is blank to me...
> ...I presume you scream "Toughness! Toughness!" in any discussions of feats as well. Because if one aspect of one subsystem of a game is crap, it is your moral duty to shove it in the faces of all and sundry at every opportunity, correct?

Blathering on that you are correct because you think someone admitted profession should be made better (which wasn't even an accurate conclusion drawable from the material, but I digress) is simply an admission that YOU now want to fix it instead of sticking your head in the sand and saying its fine as long as you ignore the rules as written.
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Talisman
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Post by Talisman » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:08 pm

My point is this. Read carefully.
You claimed that, because Profession is screwed up, it must be used as a balance point. It exists; therefore, rather than try to fix it or ignore it because it's crap, we must build our house upon this foundation of sand.
I say that if a given spell or skill is so literally useless as Profession, it can safely be ignores for purposes of ability balance. I would like to see functional Profession rules; rules that are actually interesting and worth taking. In absence of those rules, I feel fully justified in ignoring Profession and restricting discussions on skill balance to skills that are actually worth taking.

> Bigode wrote:

> > Talisman wrote:But that's the point. Fireball is weak for a 3rd-level spell, but it is a third-level spell. If you admit fireball should be made better, you've just admitted Profession should be made better.

> Better enough to be exactly as good as anything else, unlike what you first said.

No; I first said that I ignore Profession as it is written because it is crap. My preference would be to see useful Profession rules, just as my preference would be to see a fireball that's the equal of any other decent 3rd-level spell.

> MartinHarper wrote:Babies are difficult to acquire in comparison to other sources of nutrition.

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virgil
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Post by virgil » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:22 pm

If you're going to make a set of skills that allow the performance of magic, then you're already changing rules. In which case, you don't ignore Profession, you eliminate it as a skill.
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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:22 pm

Well, I can be right through the magic of revisionist history as well.
I prefer not to say stupid things in the first place.
Your failure to claim you required any change is, you now say, a mere omission that should have been assumed in your view.
But you were arguing hand in hand with a raving loony who was declaring that profession was OK to trade with full spell casting.
In that context declaring that there wasn't a problem because you chose to just ignore whatever rules you feel like is exactly what I portray it to be.
And also, something stupid you continued to say today was...

> You claimed that, because Profession is screwed up, it must be used as a balance point. It exists; therefore, rather than try to fix it or ignore it because it's crap, we must build our house upon this foundation of sand.

You didn't say the skill system needed to be rewritten from scratch to support this full casting as a skill insanity.
You effectively stated that the full casting as a skill was OK because you could simply ignore the fact that some/most/all other skills sucked.
"Choose to Ignore" does not equal "Can and Will Fix" dumb ass.
In other news...

> Background skills as currently written are a waste. That doesn't mean all skills must scale to their power level

... exactly what percentage of the skill system IS equal to full spell casting?
Or must we again assume the omission of some surprising and exciting key claim such as this being acceptable in the context of a hypothetically entirely new and different skill system sharing nothing in common with the current one from d20 explicitly being discussed by this thread?
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Draco_Argentum
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Post by Draco_Argentum » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:42 am

> Elennsar wrote:So, before Spellcasting is made based on a skill or skills, we need to make sure every skill is worth something.

I'd just take the easy way out and move craft/profession/knowledge to a separate pool of points. That way background stuff doesn't have to be balanced against actual spellcasting.
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Talisman
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Post by Talisman » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:45 am

> PhoneLobster wrote:Well, I can be right through the magic of revisionist history as well.
> I prefer not to say stupid things in the first place.

> And also, something stupid you continued to say today was...

> > You claimed that, because Profession is screwed up, it must be used as a balance point. It exists; therefore, rather than try to fix it or ignore it because it's crap, we must build our house upon this foundation of sand.

> You didn't say the skill system needed to be rewritten from scratch to support this full casting as a skill insanity.
> You effectively stated that the full casting as a skill was OK because you could simply ignore the fact that some/most/all other skills sucked.

Don't strawman me again, dammit. Your ravings are often amusing, but putting words in my mouth is not. Stop doing it.
I never once stated that "full casting as a skill was OK because you could simply ignore the fact that some/most/all other skills sucked." I stated that some level of casting based on skills could be made balanced, and the fact that one skill is utterly worthless means I can ignore it.
If your car window doesn't roll down, that doesn't mean every other feature of your car is definitely crap. It means you need to fix your damn window or learn to live with it.
And stating that "most/all" other skills suck is hyperbole at best and stupidity at worst.

> "Choose to Ignore" does not equal "Can and Will Fix" dumb ass.

Thank you for that gratuitous insult. It certainly makes me consider your opinions more valid. I'm sure your position in the herd is improved, and you will receive access to more food and better mating opportunities.

> In other news...

> > Background skills as currently written are a waste. That doesn't mean all skills must scale to their power level

> ... exactly what percentage of the skill system IS equal to full spell casting?

Zero. You're welcome. Always glad to help newbies understand the rules.
You seem to be claiming that all skills must scale to the power of Profession, simply because Profession exists. I am not going to address this claim any more, because it frankly makes me stupider to keep thinking about it.
Last I looked, no one was suggesting a straight skill = full casting conversion. Feats - a finite and valuable resource - have been mentioned. The most liberal of the casual alpha suggestions thrown around here have included an investment of at least 3-4 feats for anything close to full spellcasting.

> MartinHarper wrote:Babies are difficult to acquire in comparison to other sources of nutrition.

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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:42 am

> Talisman wrote:I stated that some level of casting based on skills could be made balanced, and the fact that one skill is utterly worthless means I can ignore it.

Lets just pick this one thing because the rest of your post is just you denying you said what you said or ever agreed with PR until you are blue in the face.
Now, that "point" has been addressed long since with a casual off hand line from me, but you chose to ignore it (which in your world means it needs no further dealing with!).
Anyway. Your proposed balance point was Tumble.
Lets let that sink in for a bit. Tumble was your proposed balance point for "magical powas!"
My response you might recall was to laugh it out of the room as an utterly ridiculous balance point for any such d20 patch.
Come back when you've grown the balls to stick to your own arguments instead of bawling about being hard done by and misunderstood.
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