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God_of_Awesome
  Knight-Baron
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Post by God_of_Awesome » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:11 am

Well, I'm gonna try to play a character in Avor's DatD game that primarily uses Two-Handed Weapons and is primarily a martial character, a Samurai with possibility of Barbarian.
I welcome and encourage you guys to see how that work outs for me.
Frank on the Fighter (Abridged)

> FrankTrollman wrote:

> > God_of_Awesome wrote: Could I inquire on the motive behind the design decisions on the Fighter class?

> ...
> The Fighter is intended to be, like the Wizard, a character who can and does adapt their tactics to the opposition and draws upon player experience to deliver tactical victories. And to do it without "feeling" like it was using Magic.
> ...
> So honestly, when someone tells me "I know the game backwards and forwards, and when I pull out all the stops with the Fighter I totally win!" And my response is "OK, good." Because that's exactly what people report with the Wizard too.
> -Username17

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Red_Rob
  Prince
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Post by Red_Rob » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:00 pm

> FrankTrollman wrote:When you have 1 magic item and the THF guy has a magic sword and the TWF guy has a magic sword, it doesn't go well for the TWF guy. But when you have 2 magic items spent on attacking and the TWF guy has two swords and the THF guy has a sword and a belt of strength that stacks with that sword, it still doesn't go well for the TWF guy. And when you only have one Medium Magic Item spent on attacking, and when you only have one Major Magic Item spent on attacking, and when you only have one Artifact spent on attacking.... the guy with a two handed sword is always ahead of the game at every single level of play. Unless the TWF guy is getting a large per-attack damage boost.
> So, Rogues excel at TWF, and it's seriously not worth it for other people. And every time people hand wave spending an extra magic item on the style as a pittance, it makes my blood boil. Because that's not good analysis.

Okay, I ran some tests and, assuming you still get ½Str on the off hand weapon with Tome, at low levels a Two Hander is actually a good choice, because you haven't had a chance to pick up many bonuses and you have so few feats that devoting one to TWF is a big deal. So it is true that at the levels where you have a single magic item TWF is not the optimum choice, but not due to the magic item limit. Once you get a couple of magic items, due to the exponential way item costs increase it is not much more expensive to get a Medium Longsword and a Lesser longsword than it is to get a Medium Greatsword.
The main issue is the number of ways to get "a large per attack damage boost". Sneak Attack, Rage Dice, Str boosts, Blitz, Power Attack, Designate Opponent, it seems every Melee class has access to something. Once you get past level 5-6 most of the damage you are dealing is from bonuses, not the dice, so TWF becomes the default choice for the majority of melee characters.
As long as any Feat that allows you to specialise in Two Handed Weapons is balanced against other Feats I don't see how it can be a problem, as you still have the choice of taking any of those other feats and gaining power that way. It just means that you won't see all Melee Characters after level 5 using two weapons.
Last edited by Red_Rob on Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CatharzGodfoot
  King
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  Location: North Carolina

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Post by CatharzGodfoot » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:32 am

> Red_Rob wrote:The main issue is the number of ways to get "a large per attack damage boost". Sneak Attack, Rage Dice, Str boosts, Blitz, Power Attack, Designate Opponent, it seems every Melee class has access to something.

Just thought I'd point out that rage dice only work on primary attacks, and designate opponent only works on secondary attacks if your primary misses. Not that I disagree with your overall assessment, especially Blitz and power attack. Strength boosts possibly--IIRC the Tome TWFing feat never gives your full strength bonus to offhanded attacks, so strength to damage is identical for TWFing and THFing.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
  Posts: 14491
  Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

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Post by Kaelik » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:10 pm

Does anyone actually read anything before they post ever?
Yes, TWFing gives full Str bonus to offhand attacks.
Red Rob, Carthaz. Both of you need to die in a fire or read the feat, you guys have both made claims that it doesn't, you are dumb. Read the feat.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:40 pm

> Kaelik wrote:Does anyone actually read anything before they post ever?
> Yes, TWFing gives full Str bonus to offhand attacks.
> Red Rob, Carthaz. Both of you need to die in a fire or read the feat, you guys have both made claims that it doesn't, you are dumb. Read the feat.

You know? It doesn't actually say that.

> actually reading the fucking feat wrote: You suffer no penalty for doing things with your off-hand. When you make an attack or full-attack action, you may make a number of attacks with your off-hand weapon equal to the number of attacks you are afforded with your primary weapon.

Adding half your strength bonus to off-hand attacks as described in the PHB is not a penalty. You are not losing half your Strength mod, you're gaining half your strength mod.
-Username17
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Kaelik
  ArchDemon of Rage
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Post by Kaelik » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:46 pm

Just out of curiosity Frank, why did you decide like two weeks ago that your TWFing feat doesn't do anything at all?
Last time you were bitching you were talking about how -10 penalties aren't penalties, now you are talking about how using your left hand half as effectively as your right hand is not a penalty.
I'd tell you to read your own feat, but it's not even worth it because you are just trying to be an asshole, since you officially clarified that you got your entire Str bonus to each hand a long fucking time ago.
If you off hand does things, like damage, half as effectively as your main hand, that is in fact a penalty. Or at least, so you claimed when people asked you about the feat, but why should your own claims hold any ground when you suddenly want to convince everyone that TWFing is not overpowered.
Fuck, I don't even think it is, I just want people to know what it does, and you changing your mind to fit the situation doesn't help anyone.

> DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?

The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:02 pm

If people are going to be coming out ad being aggressively literal about this shit, then let's get aggressively fucking literal. What it says is that you don't have any penalties for using a weapon in your off hand. That is it. That is all it says.
So if anything related to TWF is called a "penalty" then you can ignore it. Also you get your full standard number of attacks with your off hand. Again, that's it.
I never recalled having TWF mention getting to use full sized weapons in both hands without penalty. And indeed, it doesn't mention that one way or the other. But to be aggressively literal, that is technically a penalty for using a weapon in your off hand. So go ahead and use two scimitars. Literally read, it totally fucking does that.
But you know what? Adding half your strength bonus to your damage is not a fucking penalty. It's a bonus. Aggressively literal reading: you get half your Strength mod with the offhand attacks. If people are going to make weird combos and shout "Read the FEAT!" and shit at each other about it, they should take their own fucking advice. It says it negates penalties, it doesn't say it guarantees you the biggest possible bonus.
-Username17
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Judging__Eagle
  Prince
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:28 pm

Actually Frank, while we're on the topic of TWF and damage and such.
Regarding the Rage dice that RoW Barbarians get; does that get used every time that a barbarian swings with main and off hand attacks?
When I first used the class I didn't rule it that way and didn't play my barbarian that way; and later on I saw that people did use it that way, I changed how I used that damage source to applying to both main, and off-weapon attacks. So, the barbarian PCs got a damage boost.
However, was that an accurate change, or not?
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:44 am

> Judging__Eagle wrote:Actually Frank, while we're on the topic of TWF and damage and such.
> Regarding the Rage dice that RoW Barbarians get; does that get used every time that a barbarian swings with main and off hand attacks?
> When I first used the class I didn't rule it that way and didn't play my barbarian that way; and later on I saw that people did use it that way, I changed how I used that damage source to applying to both main, and off-weapon attacks. So, the barbarian PCs got a damage boost.
> However, was that an accurate change, or not?

Offhand attacks are by definition bonus attacks, so Rage Dice don't get added.
-Username17
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:22 am

That's what I always thought.
Does tone down Barbarian PCs who pick up TWF.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:38 am

> Judging__Eagle wrote:Regarding the Rage dice that RoW Barbarians get; does that get used every time that a barbarian swings with main and off hand attacks?
> ... later on I saw that people did use it that way, I changed how I used that damage source to applying to both main, and off-weapon attacks. So, the barbarian PCs got a damage boost.

I think this is related to the wording on the "rage" ability in the Tome. Whilst the full description of Rage Dice does state that they "are not applied to any bonus attacks beyond those granted by Base Attack Bonus" the summary in the Rage ability simply states "may apply any Rage dice he has to his melee damage rolls".
As people tend to check just the summary once they know basically what the powers do, this leads people (myself included!) to mistakenly attribute Rage Dice to all attacks. I think this could do with being made a little clearer in the summary if J_E's experience shows people are regularly getting it wrong.
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Sunwitch
  Master
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Post by Sunwitch » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:51 am

I always just figured that interpretation of the rage dice rules would make it a complete no-brainer to take twf with a barbarian, making the twf barbarian completely overshadow any other kind of barbarian, including the greataxe wielder and all. And that would suck.
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Username17
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Post by Username17 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:48 pm

> Mauver wrote:I always just figured that interpretation of the rage dice rules would make it a complete no-brainer to take twf with a barbarian, making the twf barbarian completely overshadow any other kind of barbarian, including the greataxe wielder and all. And that would suck.

TWF is a feat that costs extra magic items to make function. What it does is allow you to get extra mileage out of your static damage bonuses that don't have use limitations. So TWF totally is a no brainer for Rogues. Because Sneak Attack gives you a large per-attack damage bonus. And that's OK.
What I don't understand is people interpreting "ignore penalties" as "take full advantage of any rules or conditions that provide bonuses to any other fighting style." That's just really weird. And then to compound that, people yelling at me about how TWF is "broken" because they are using this frankly ridiculous interpretation where "ignore penalties" apparently means "get any bonuses that apply to anyone under any circumstances."
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Cielingcat
  Duke
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Post by Cielingcat » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:06 pm

Hey guys, you may have forgotten, but there is a feat for Two Handed Fighting in Races of War. It's called, funnily enough, Subtle Cut and it's benefits synergize with making a single, big attack. I mean, the basic benefit doesn't help THF as much as TWF, but the level 1, 6, and 16 abilities do. Because these are standard actions that are taken in lieu of any other standard action, and as such, you only get to stab the person one time, so you want to pour as much damage into that one single attack as possible. Also, the level 1 ability functions on the damage you do divided by 5, so you really need to pile damage on there.
CHICKENS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO COCAINE, SILKY HEN

> Josh_Kablack wrote:You are not a unique and precious snowflake, you are just one more fucking asshole on the internet who presumes themselves to be better than the unwashed masses.

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